Obama's upcoming community college plan

[TheReader]

I and my husband really benefited from being able to go to state universities essentially for free (except living expenses).

 

I don't think it would be too much to ask for the generation I'm from to pay a minimal amount more in taxes so the next generation can get the same benefit.  If that could start with at least the cc's being free, well, it's a start. 

 

It's just aggravating that our kids were in the time when they were expected to go into debt for the next 20 yrs just to go to college -- and that loans are expected to make it "doable". 

 

At the least, it might be a great jobs program for all those PhD's out there who can't get real work.

 

The cc near us is about 5000-6000/yr.  I'm not really seeing how someone with only a high school diploma could be expected to find a job to pay that AND go to school full time AND live.  Maybe, if they're living at home and their parents are supporting them it would work.  But that's still kind of tight.  At 10/hr, 10 hrs/week someone would make 5000 a yr.  Before taxes.  Working more than 10 hrs/week would really compromise the ability to do well in school.  And I don't know how many jobs are available out there (part time) that pay 10/hr.

 

As a parent, that 5-6K wouldn't seem like too much, but it would be hard for someone just starting out to pay that.  And books besides.

 

However, I will wait to see what this plan actually entails before I pass judgement.

 

We're still paying DH's student loans, so perhaps that skews my view as to my willingness to shoulder this burden for the next generation. We hope/plan/should be done paying his loans (mine are paid off) before our boys enter university, just in time for us to roll that payment into their education. 

 

And we're already paying for CC for our oldest, for dual enrollment, since we home school. Public school students can dual-enroll for free, but we cannot. And then, since we are outside the tax base for the CC (even though we're in the school districts that are served by this CC for dual enrollment), we pay out of district fees. Six hours (2 classes, the  max he can take as dual enrolled) cost us ~$1000 once you include the books. More than that if/when he takes a lab class. For one semester. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree because 1) the federal government can't pay its bills now and can't afford it. 2) education is not the right/responsibility of the federal government, and 3) without high admission standards, it just turns into 13th and 14th grade.  Disaster and money pit all around...

 

Then again you could look at this as a worthwhile investment.  If more people graduate from college without tons of debt, those people will be more likely to spend money which in turn helps the economy. 

[flyingiguana]

I'll also add that when I did CC classes way back when in CA, getting in was a piece of cake.  They basically took anyone with a high school diploma, and a whole lot of other people besides who could show ANY sort of ability to read or do math (and if you couldn't, they'd still take you and put you in remedial courses).

 

And yet, the classes weren't fluff.

 

There may have been students failing, but that didn't bring down the level of expectations.

 

When my husband taught in a cc in IL only 20 yrs ago, it was the same deal.  They took about everyone.  Yeah, there were kids who failed, but there were the A and B students that the courses were taught to -- and the expectations of the course pretty much matched what one would expect at an intro class at the local state U.

 

The proportion of people who flunked out might have been higher at the cc, there may have been a lot more remedial help available, but that didn't change the academic level of the course.  The cc's need to be accredited and they need to continue to send transfer students to 4 yr colleges.  So they do need their higher grades to mean something.

 

Based on the fact that it's still fairly common for cc students to transfer to 4 yr colleges, I expect this means these classes are still of decent quality.  (A few might not be, and I'm sure someone can point to them, but you can point to low quality courses at any 4 yr institution too.  I've sat through a number of them, unfortunately -- both recently and back during that mythical period when education was "better")

[mommytobees]

How depressing that a well-written paper is so far outside the norm—even at the college level—that it's assumed to be the result of cheating.

 

Well, I can't manage to multi-quote.....so thank you for the congrats on my paper from the other posters.... LOL, I can write but I can't figure the new-to-me boards out.

 

That was my question for her!  How bad were her other papers that MINE was considered abnormal!

 

This wasn't a 100 level class, this was a 300 level class and they (Prof, her peer, and Dept. Head) thought it might be written by someone other than the student.

 

I write well but come on, I don't write *that* well!!!!  I'm not going to be winning prizes for my writing! 

 

Kris

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah sadly I will still be paying on my loans when my own kids go to college.  So that limits my ability to help them.  So the cycle continues.  The only reason we aren't completely riddled with educational debt is because my husband went to school for free in another country and had his master's paid for by an employer.  I grew up in a poor family so I was able to get as much money as I needed, but most of that was in the form of loans. 

 

 

[elegantlion]

Kris, off topic just because I'm curious, I remember you from years back on the Sonlight boards.  Do you think what you learned homeschooling your kids has significantly helped you in your own quest for a college degree?

 

Not Kris, but yes homeschooling has helped my college pursuit. I'm a sophomore right now and most of what I've learned has been easy or review thanks to homeschooling. In fact the astronomy class I'm taking uses the same text ds and I used for astronomy last year - just a newer edition. 

[Kim in Appalachia]

You have a point and maybe that is one of the reasons things have changed.

 

I wrote a paper last term for a non-writing heavy class.  The instructor called me into her office to go over the paper.  She couldn't prove that I plagiarized, but she couldn't believe a student wrote it.  I walked into her office with my 50/50 grey/brown hair and her jaw dropped, no joke.  This class had about 93 students in it. I received the only perfect grade on all the papers (3 total).  She said it was one of the best written papers she had ever seen from an undergrad student.

 

This was a 300 level class.

 

 

My 16-year-old son had to defend one of his papers last year. The teacher thought a parent wrote it.

 

The education my children are now getting in public school SUCKS (pardon the French). 

 

Kris

 

 

In my dd's comp class (she's a HS junior taking classes at a local college) the professor didn't bother grading the content because so many of the kids couldn't put together a sentence.  She graded on the other stuff.  My dd forgot to change a setting and the paragraph wrapped at the bottom of the page.  Even though she met the word count requirement that was not allowed and she lost 10 pts.  Her name, at the top of her paper, was in the wrong font, another 10 pts (my poor dd thought she changed the font, but it was an internal setting that overroad what she did).  She also took off 10 pts per citatation that wasn't perfect.  The first time my dd didn't intent the second line enough, the second time she intented too much.  Every paper my dd did the content received a 10/10 but 90 more pts came from technical stuff.  90 pts!  It was sad.  I had wanted her to take the class to polish her writing, but it was a joke.  The professors at the school don't bother trying to teach how to write, just how to meet technical requirements.  

[regentrude]

Anything that contributes to a well educated population will benefit the society.

 

I come from a country where almost every student receives a continuing education after high school - either in vocational training, apprenticeship, subject specific colleges, or universities for free, because society has decided an educated workforce is a high priority and in everybody's best interest and thus a worthy use of tax funds.

 

I have a hard time understanding why some think free community college would be a bad idea.

What's wrong with universal access to education?

 

ETA: Btw, the idea is not new, and there are already states that recognize the importance. My state has a program that gives all high school students with a certain GPA and a certain number of volunteer tutoring hours in high school two years of free CC.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I know nothing about this program except what is in this post.

 

If CC is free (funny word, nothing is free, someone is paying for it), is a CC degree going to become what a high school diploma is--a worthless piece of paper that you need to go to the next step? A high school diploma 50 years ago allowed you to get a good job; college was icing on the cake. Now, you need a college degree for the most basic secretarial position. If everyone has a CC degree, it is worthless, right?

[mommytobees]

Kris, off topic just because I'm curious, I remember you from years back on the Sonlight boards.  Do you think what you learned homeschooling your kids has significantly helped you in your own quest for a college degree?

 

YES!!!!!  I certainly do think it helped!

 

I used Voyages in English from Grade K - 8 (grade 3 for my son). I know I learned *so* much from those books!  I kept the Grade 8 book for my own reference materials.

 

Several years ago, my now-ex-husband was taking English 101 online.  He was struggling with some of the basic grammar memorization. My daughter grabbed her Grade 5 English book and showed him the answers.

 

I wrote well in high school and did just fine the first time I took English 101 (20 years ago). But, I know my writing has developed so much more from VIE.  Plus, when you add in the years of having to teach writing and grammar skills to my kids..... I'm glad I homeschooled the kids for my OWN education!!

 

Kris

[flyingiguana]

I'm waiting for Obama to announce a plan to rein in textbook prices.

 

We thought we had my daughter's textbooks all set for this semester.  But no, the bookstore messed up and there IS apparently a book for one of the classes.   And a professor dragged her feet and there IS a book for a second class.  New, these books are going to be 450 dollars.  And, we can't get them used.  One has an access code (and I can't find just the access code for cheap, so going with the 2013 edition of the book won't work.  she'll have to get the new and improved 2014 edition) and the other has CDs, which probably cost the textbook company an extra dollar or so, but ya know, just cause you can get a normal CD for 15 bucks doesn't mean that's what a textbook CD costs.  And there's a consumable workbook that is 150 dollars.

 

The irony is that the 2 credit music class that she's not sure will cover what she wants (so she may drop it) is 300 dollars for books.  The computer programming couse, with access code so they can do the homework is only 150.

[mommytobees]

And we're already paying for CC for our oldest, for dual enrollment, since we home school. Public school students can dual-enroll for free, but we cannot. And then, since we are outside the tax base for the CC (even though we're in the school districts that are served by this CC for dual enrollment), we pay out of district fees. Six hours (2 classes, the  max he can take as dual enrolled) cost us ~$1000 once you include the books. More than that if/when he takes a lab class. For one semester. 

 

The school my daughter is going to next year, a charter high school, insists on dual-enrollment. Thankfully, they also pay for everything except for books.  I guess you just highlighted a huge benefit to my kids being in public school!!

 

Kris

[poppy]

You have a point and maybe that is one of the reasons things have changed.

 

I wrote a paper last term for a non-writing heavy class.  The instructor called me into her office to go over the paper.  She couldn't prove that I plagiarized, but she couldn't believe a student wrote it.  I walked into her office with my 50/50 grey/brown hair and her jaw dropped, no joke.  This class had about 93 students in it. I received the only perfect grade on all the papers (3 total).  She said it was one of the best written papers she had ever seen from an undergrad student.

 

This was a 300 level class.

 

 

My 16-year-old son had to defend one of his papers last year. The teacher thought a parent wrote it.

 

The education my children are now getting in public school SUCKS (pardon the French). 

 

Kris

 

 

Some public schools suck.  I grew up in a school with such incredibly low standards, so I get it. But I just want to say, I recently had to judge a high school essay contest, and I was impressed with what the kids here in this district did. The writing was generally at least solid, and even the kids in younger grades all understood the way to structure a persuasive essay with proper grammar.  It really does depend on where you are.

 

[TechWife]

I would like to see compelled students who are out of classes at their high school be eligible for tuition waivers at the CC or State U. I know too many rotting in study hall that cant move on until financial aid kicks in...too rich for a waiver for DE, too poor to pay the costs oop.

 

Dual enrollment is free in our state. To use dual enrollment, students must have a 3.0 high school GPA, be a high school junior or senior and be "making progress" toward high school graduation. The CC GPA can't drop below 2.0. Not only are there are two college transfer pathways (A.S. and A.A) there a host of technical courses and certifications that high school students can work on.

 

There is no tuition and there are no fees (we don't even have to pay for parking). Students must buy their own books, which can get costly. 

[flyingiguana]

I know nothing about this program except what is in this post.

 

If CC is free (funny word, nothing is free, someone is paying for it), is a CC degree going to become what a high school diploma is--a worthless piece of paper that you need to go to the next step? A high school diploma 50 years ago allowed you to get a good job; college was icing on the cake. Now, you need a college degree for the most basic secretarial position. If everyone has a CC degree, it is worthless, right?

 

No, because cc used to be free in CA.  Big large state with free cc so there should have been a noticeable effect.  And no, it did not make it so a college degree was needed for every job.

 

Something else is driving that.

[TheReader]

yea, those access codes are a real rip-off. Fully $200/semester, or more, of what we pay is spent just on the books, and that's just for 2 courses. 

[mommytobees]

Not Kris, but yes homeschooling has helped my college pursuit. I'm a sophomore right now and most of what I've learned has been easy or review thanks to homeschooling. In fact the astronomy class I'm taking uses the same text ds and I used for astronomy last year - just a newer edition. 

 

Oh, I'm glad to see someone else respond to that question!

 

Kris

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another thing is why is our future so heavily dependent on our parent's ability and/or willingness to pay for our education?  Yes, I know this still doesn't make it impossible if our parents can't help or don't want to, but it's not easy at all.  It is probably still possible to have quality standards AND affordability.  If money is no longer an obstacle than the obstacle will be space.  If space is an obstacle then entrance and advancement requirements should be more stringent.  They have free school in Germany, but this does not mean just anyone can go because not everyone can pass the exams.  If students don't have the ability or don't put in the work they don't remain there and/or they do not graduate.  If people are upset with removing the financial burden to me that says they think only parents with a lot of money deserve to see their kids go to college.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

The school my daughter is going to next year, a charter high school, insists on dual-enrollment. Thankfully, they also pay for everything except for books.  I guess you just highlighted a huge benefit to my kids being in public school!!

 

Kris

 

In our state, homeschoolers get this paid for too.  They also get books paid for.

 

[regentrude]

I'm waiting for Obama to announce a plan to rein in textbook prices.

 

We thought we had my daughter's textbooks all set for this semester.  But no, the bookstore messed up and there IS apparently a book for one of the classes.   And a professor dragged her feet and there IS a book for a second class.  New, these books are going to be 450 dollars.  And, we can't get them used.  One has an access code (and I can't find just the access code for cheap, so going with the 2013 edition of the book won't work.  she'll have to get the new and improved 2014 edition) and the other has CDs, which probably cost the textbook company an extra dollar or so, but ya know, just cause you can get a normal CD for 15 bucks doesn't mean that's what a textbook CD costs.  And there's a consumable workbook that is 150 dollars.

 

The irony is that the 2 credit music class that she's not sure will cover what she wants (so she may drop it) is 300 dollars for books.  The computer programming couse, with access code so they can do the homework is only 150.

 

Has she contacted her professor and asked explicitly about the access code and whether the CDs are required???

 

Sometimes the only way to set the book through the campus book store is if it is bundled with the extra resources, because that may be the cheapest package. That does not mean the resources are required. ALWAYS ask the instructor!

 

(Your DD may already have done this, but I want to put this out there for others.)

[Guest]

Anything that contributes to a well educated population will benefit the society.

 

I come from a country where almost every student receives a continuing education after high school - either in vocational training, apprenticeship, subject specific colleges, or universities for free, because society has decided an educated workforce is a high priority and in everybody's best interest and thus a worthy use of tax funds.

 

I have a hard time understanding why some think free community college would be a bad idea.

What's wrong with universal access to education?

 

ETA: Btw, the idea is not new, and there are already states that recognize the importance. My state has a program that gives all high school students with a certain GPA and a certain number of volunteer tutoring hours in high school two years of free CC.

My issue is that it isn't really education. It is sitting in a classroom, doing your time and then being handed a piece of paper.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Some public schools suck.  I grew up in a school with such incredibly low standards, so I get it. But I just want to say, I recently had to judge a high school essay contest, and I was impressed with what the kids here in this district did. The writing was generally at least solid, and even the kids in younger grades all understood the way to structure a persuasive essay with proper grammar.  It really does depend on where you are.

 

Which is so wrong.  Which is the goal of CC.  Not saying CC is great, but the purpose is so parents don't have to worry if the school they send their kid to stinks or not.  So that some aren't short changed simply because of where they live. 

[Reefgazer]

Sums up the situation perfectly, in a nutshell.

Someone posted this on my FB this morning, thinking it was a great idea.  I didn't respond there because I didn't think my response would benefit the poster.  But, I agree that there is no such thing as a 'free lunch'.  Someone is going to be paying for this, and, um, it's probably going to be me.

 

I see free community college as just an extension of 'free' public education.  My dh is a college professor and in the last ten years he has seen the quality of college prep education, ie. public high school, plummet.  I think it's asinine to continue funding this spiral.  

 

[flyingiguana]

How depressing that a well-written paper is so far outside the norm—even at the college level—that it's assumed to be the result of cheating.

 

To be honest, I think this may have more to do with plagiarizing being so much easier these days.  Professors feel they have to be a lot more suspicious. 

 

Whether there actually is more plagiarizing is a question.  There may actually be less, as plagiarizing off the web is so easy to catch.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My issue is that it isn't really education. It is sitting in a classroom, doing your time and then being handed a piece of paper.

 

I do agree with this.  I wonder how good it is.

 

I plan to send my kids to CC for some high school courses.  A lot of homeschoolers around here do that.  What does it say that a 14 year old can do well in a course intended for someone who graduated high school?  It can't be that all homeschoolers have geniuses for children. 

[flyingiguana]

My issue is that it isn't really education. It is sitting in a classroom, doing your time and then being handed a piece of paper.

 

As I keep saying, though, this isn't true.

 

If you live in an area where the standards are so crummy that a cc class is worth nothing than you really need to be complaining about that to your local authorities.  In many parts of the country, this just isn't true.

 

[TheReader]

Another thing is why is our future so heavily dependent on our parent's ability and/or willingness to pay for our education?  Yes, I know this still doesn't make it impossible if our parents can't help or don't want to, but it's not easy at all.  It is probably still possible to have quality standards AND affordability.  If money is no longer an obstacle than the obstacle will be space.  If space is an obstacle then entrance and advancement requirements should be more stringent.  They have free school in Germany, but this does not mean just anyone can go because not everyone can pass the exams.  If students don't have the ability or don't put in the work they don't remain there and/or they do not graduate.  If people are upset with removing the financial burden to me that says they think only parents with a lot of money deserve to see their kids go to college.

 

Ironically, they have free university in Brazil, too, but then space was an obstacle, so entrance requirements were changed, and so now the only ones who can actually get into the free universities are those who were able to pay for private schooling at the pre-University level. Those who came up through the public school system are no longer able to pass the entrance exams and take advantage of the free universities, leaving them stuck working, scraping, pinching pennies, etc, to try and pay for the (lesser quality) private pay universities. Not a system I'd want to see here. 

 

As to being upset about removing the financial burden.....in my experience thus far based on things like the AHA, etc., it's not removing the financial burden at all, just shifting it, so then very likely some will end up paying for this now "free" education for the masses, while still paying for their own children's education. 

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm imagining a system where there's an income guideline to determine who is eligible for this free CC, and guessing we'd be above that cut-off, thus paying twice. Once for the masses children, and again for our own. 

 

If this plan turns out to be outlined differently, I may change my mind; I'd love free CC for my kids. I just have serious doubts as to how "free" it would actually be, and I'm curious just how over-burdened my finances will become if the President is able to pass more and more "free" improvements for society. 

[KungFuPanda]

I think you might be able to do away with government preschool but I am quite sure full day kindergarten is here to stay.

I'm sure they're both here to stay. When my mom went to school, there was no kindergarten. In a few generations it's become part of 'what we do.' I'd be fine if that happened with CC, or god forbid, health care.

[flyingiguana]

yea, those access codes are a real rip-off. Fully $200/semester, or more, of what we pay is spent just on the books, and that's just for 2 courses. 

 

It's a cheap, automated TA.  And reduces the workload of the professor.  So I can see the reason for them.  It likely reduces tuition costs a fair amount, if it means the professor can then teach another class.  Grading homework uses up a HUGE amount of time.  And it is useful for kids to do lots and lots of graded homework in math and science.

 

IF the professor actually uses them.  There are situations where the professor wants them bought but then never uses them.

 

My big issue is the really expensive music books and CDs.  My guess is that the professor won't use them much.  They're just "nice to have" or she felt she couldn't teach a theory class without a book.  Back when I took theory, we had a very basic textbook -- all the practice was done in class or using tapes at the library.  Or we practiced at home without the help of a fancy book (it is possible).  But, if these students were to use library tapes, the professor would actually have to put them together, like they did in the old days.

 

My daughter's going to the music class without the book.  She'll see how much it looks like it's going to get used.  If not much, she'll stay in the class and skip the book.  If a lot, she might consider dropping.  She has way too much on her plate anyway.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Our CC, City Council, and local school district instituted a program last year giving local residents a discount at the CC for every year they attended the local school district.  A student with 13 years (K-12) will receive free tuition; 3 years = 50%.  Each year above 3 gives an additional 5% discount.

 

The program is funded by a 2% tax initiative and a large donation from the city's business and technology foundation.

 

The program requires an application (secondary to applying to the CC and testing for placement) and a yearly FAFSA.  Spots are limited and are based on first come-first served.  If all 306 graduating seniors chose to apply, very few would be accepted.

 

Tuition is $145 per credit hour for In-District students. 

 

 

 

---

We, of course, are not eligible for the full discount due to homeschooling. Although the three year minimum requirement for 50% isn't bad.  That is easily earned by attending the local public high school, which is what the majority of local homeschoolers choose to do.  That would be 4 years and a 55% discount.

[TechWife]

It costs $17,000+/- for a two-year degree at our local community college (including books and fees, but not transportation or living expenses).  That's quite a lot.

 

Wow! Tuition to complete an associate's degree at our cc is $5,400. That includes tuition & fees, but not books. 

[redsquirrel]

It could be a good idea.  Or it could be an incredibly terrible one.  At this point, it's completely impossible to tell because it really is just "community college would be free" with no details or anything about how it would work.  And then there are the unintended consequences.  There always seem to be unintended consequences.

 

Well, of course there are. That is life. That is why laws, including the constitution, are living documents. We need an educated population to say "Oh, that thing we thought was a good idea, well, it caused something else to happen and now we need to respond to that." Things change, circumstances change, that is the only constant. A democracy, an economy, a education system, a health care system, all systems have to respond to change.

 

Decisions and actions have unintended consequences. So does doing nothing. If something stops being able to respond to changing needs and circumstances it dies. I don't understand why people (and I am not saying that Butter is that type of person) get all upset when something, especially a large undertaking isn't perfect on the first shot. How is perfection even possible? Is it better not to try? We used to do big things in this country, and not all of them worked, but at least we tried. And sometimes the 'unintended consequences' led to some interesting things.

 

Gah! I just feel like we are becoming so fearful and moribound.  I am not advocating going all crazy, just not so fearful about trying something new.

 

Sorry about my little rant, lol.

[Reefgazer]

It might be worth a piffle of consideration if there were actual standards attached to admission and graduation, but there will not be.  Or they will be high-school-like standards that are not standards at all.  Then there is the little problem of this being a state issue....

Then again you could look at this as a worthwhile investment.  If more people graduate from college without tons of debt, those people will be more likely to spend money which in turn helps the economy. 

 

[Paige]

I think it's a great idea and that many people will take advantage of it who would not attempt college without it. I don't care if those same people "could" have done it without this program- I believe many wouldn't because of fear, money, or even ignorance about other options. I'm an outcomes oriented person and feel the benefits to society will far outweigh the costs. I only hope that community colleges as a whole improve their quality of education because of the increased funds instead of lowering their standards and expectations to keep the funds rolling in. 

[Serenade]

Not Kris, but yes homeschooling has helped my college pursuit. I'm a sophomore right now and most of what I've learned has been easy or review thanks to homeschooling. In fact the astronomy class I'm taking uses the same text ds and I used for astronomy last year - just a newer edition. 

 

 

Well, this is encouraging!

[Serenade]

YES!!!!!  I certainly do think it helped!

 

I used Voyages in English from Grade K - 8 (grade 3 for my son). I know I learned *so* much from those books!  I kept the Grade 8 book for my own reference materials.

 

Several years ago, my now-ex-husband was taking English 101 online.  He was struggling with some of the basic grammar memorization. My daughter grabbed her Grade 5 English book and showed him the answers.

 

I wrote well in high school and did just fine the first time I took English 101 (20 years ago). But, I know my writing has developed so much more from VIE.  Plus, when you add in the years of having to teach writing and grammar skills to my kids..... I'm glad I homeschooled the kids for my OWN education!!

 

Kris

 

 

I think this is so very cool.  And now I want to look into Voyages in English!

[Lady Florida.]

SOMEBODY is going to pay for it. "Government funded" means taxpayer funded.

 

There are a lot worse things that we can (and currently are) paying for as taxpayers. Paying for a better educated population doesn't bother me. 

[Carrie12345]

As I keep saying, though, this isn't true.

 

If you live in an area where the standards are so crummy that a cc class is worth nothing than you really need to be complaining about that to your local authorities.  In many parts of the country, this just isn't true.

 

 

There's certainly a wide range.

I went from flunking out of a private institution to being a top student in cc. That particular cc is rated one of the best.

 

Of course, there's the great matter of taking personal responsibility for what you get from a class.  Just because shoddy work CAN pass you, doesn't mean you have to do shoddy work and learn nothing.

[KungFuPanda]

My issue is that it isn't really education. It is sitting in a classroom, doing your time and then being handed a piece of paper.

I went to a poor school district and a 'party school' for college. I've had a few easy classes in my life, but I've never been in a class where you could literally sit there, do nothing, and still pass the class. Where is this happening?

 

My daughter goes to school in a 'good' district. The local. CC has loads of classes. The ones that aren't college level aren't credited as such. This includes most of the homeschool enrichment classes.

 

DH once taught an Algebra class there. He had a constant stream of nurses crying to him that they had to pass Algebra to get their degree. He never changed their grades. They HAD to master the material to get by even if they had to take the class again.

[mommytobees]

The problem you outlined in Brazil is my concern as well. As taxpayers we pay for illegal aliens children to go to public school. It is (IMHO) the right thing to do because we do NOT want to have a class of people who are uneducated because they didn't qualify to go to school.

 

Education is NOT free. Not matter what tag you place on it, there is a cost. Be it in work effort, in housing, or _______. There is a cost to education.  Lazy people who are unwilling to work/learn... do not get educated. 

 

"Free education" needs to be free, like public education is "free" for everyone or else we simply have a continuation of the current problem. We have the people at the very top paying for their children to be educated and at the very bottom getting free education (which is where I currently fall), but the people in the middle (which is where I used to fall) having to struggle with finding ways to pay for their education.

 

 

My ds will start college (probably CC) hopefully the first year of two of my Master's program. My income won't change (much) so he'll get the full Pell grant and sub-loans. By the time my dd graduates from high school, I will be finished with my Master's degree and be "gainfully" employed and paying off my $25,000 in student loans AND will no longer receive child support or alimony. 

 

I will have $25,000 in loans. Two kids in college. And be financially independent for the first time in decades. 

 

Quite frankly, I'm scared!

 

If there is a "free" college in my children's futures, than I am all for it!

 

Kris

 

 

 

Ironically, they have free university in Brazil, too, but then space was an obstacle, so entrance requirements were changed, and so now the only ones who can actually get into the free universities are those who were able to pay for private schooling at the pre-University level. Those who came up through the public school system are no longer able to pass the entrance exams and take advantage of the free universities, leaving them stuck working, scraping, pinching pennies, etc, to try and pay for the (lesser quality) private pay universities. Not a system I'd want to see here. 

 

As to being upset about removing the financial burden.....in my experience thus far based on things like the AHA, etc., it's not removing the financial burden at all, just shifting it, so then very likely some will end up paying for this now "free" education for the masses, while still paying for their own children's education. 

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm imagining a system where there's an income guideline to determine who is eligible for this free CC, and guessing we'd be above that cut-off, thus paying twice. Once for the masses children, and again for our own. 

 

If this plan turns out to be outlined differently, I may change my mind; I'd love free CC for my kids. I just have serious doubts as to how "free" it would actually be, and I'm curious just how over-burdened my finances will become if the President is able to pass more and more "free" improvements for society. 

 

[Serenade]

 

 

As to being upset about removing the financial burden.....in my experience thus far based on things like the AHA, etc., it's not removing the financial burden at all, just shifting it, so then very likely some will end up paying for this now "free" education for the masses, while still paying for their own children's education. 

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm imagining a system where there's an income guideline to determine who is eligible for this free CC, and guessing we'd be above that cut-off, thus paying twice. Once for the masses children, and again for our own. 

 

If this plan turns out to be outlined differently, I may change my mind; I'd love free CC for my kids. I just have serious doubts as to how "free" it would actually be, and I'm curious just how over-burdened my finances will become if the President is able to pass more and more "free" improvements for society. 

 

 

Love your post, especially the bolded.  Same concerns here.   

[fairfarmhand]

This is modeled after a program in Tennessee (I think). Does anyone have experience with it there?

 

I think it's a good idea. I just don't know the logistics. The fact is we have a lot of people graduating high school prepared to do nothing. CCs provide technical training in a lot of areas. Our economy needs people who can do things besides run a cash register.

 

Tennessee just recently began a CC scholarship program. I think it's an extension of the lottery HOPE scholarship? Gotta start school with the kiddos, so I don't have time to look up details. It's a free 2 yr CC for all TN seniors starting with those who graduate, this year? I think?

 

As you can see, I don't know much about it.

[poppy]

I think you might be able to do away with government preschool but I am quite sure full day kindergarten is here to stay.

 

We don't have it here in MA. Some districts do (grant funded), most do not.

[MomtoCandJ]

GA has free college (first 2 years). I used this for my pharmacy tech degree (much good that did). It paid all tuition and fees and you had a small amount (based on number of credits) to go towards books.

[regentrude]

. As taxpayers we pay for illegal aliens children to go to public school. It is (IMHO) the right thing to do because we do NOT want to have a class of people who are uneducated because they didn't qualify to go to school.

 

The undocumented immigrants are paying taxes as well.

Schools are largely funded by property taxes. If a landlord rents to a renter, the property tax is effectively paid by the renter.

[skimomma]

I am all for a more-educated society.  We are woefully behind at this point and making the educational bar higher across the population is essential.

 

And I am politically liberal.  

 

But, I see a lot of flaws here.  Despite adding a whole bunch of schooling to the early end of life, the outcomes are not improving.  Graduating seniors are not better educated than they were before kindergarten, preschool, and Headstart became the norm.  So, I have little faith that tacking more years on the end (making CC a default for most) is going to change much.  Much of what should be happening to improving (or at least getting back to where we were) educational outcomes need to happen before high school graduation.  Pushing more and more people into doing what should be high school work post-graduation seems a bit pointless.  Until most schools are graduating most students with the expected educational outcomes we are just wasting time and money tacking on additional years.

 

If all were perfect and we were not continuing to fail at the K-12 level, then free CC/college for all would be a grand idea and I would be all for it.

 

Even then though. I don't think we can sell it as a way to improve quality of life.  It is raising the general education of our population which is essential and good.  But our economic system is based on some people being poor.  That will always be true.  And unless our economic policies change (unlikely) the percentage of poor people will continually increase and the rich will continue to get richer and fewer.  We will have better educated poor people, but not less poor people.  And really, that is an impossible goal.  It is well known that poverty is a major factor in educational success.  It is no big secret why outcomes continue to be met by less and less of the population.  So, to me, this whole thing is trying to put a bandaid on a gash that needs 100 stitches.  It might stop some bleeding but is not going to fix the problem.

 

I'm glad I am not in charge because I honestly do not see a fix to it.

[MBM]

Honestly, I'd rather see government funded CC, than full-day preschool and kindergarten.

 

I think early childhood enrichment programs are very important for certain groups, especially those born into poverty who are growing up in chaotic homes with very little parenting. Of course, ideally the parents of these children should be doing better, but for many, they aren't. The children, and ultimately society, are affected.

 

Nobel laureate James Heckman has been studying these programs. What he's learned so far is that well-designed programs provide a good ROI to society and the vulnerable children. Here's a brief PBS interview with him:

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/it-pays-to-invest-in-early-education-says-a-nobel-economist-who-boosts-kids-iq/

 

Some of the pros and cons of different programs:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/14/james-heckman-in-early-childhood-education-quality-really-matters/

 

 

[TechWife]

GA has free college (first 2 years). I used this for my pharmacy tech degree (much good that did). It paid all tuition and fees and you had a small amount (based on number of credits) to go towards books.

 

The HOPE Scholarship is a merit scholarship, it isn't "free college." An average of only 30% of the students that start college with the HOPE Scholarship keep it for all four years.

[MomtoCandJ]

Dd1 received her speech therapy through head start (a federally funded early childhood educational program). Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to afford the services she received.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think a 4 year college degree is doable by working one's way through, but I think most community college programs still are.  

 

As others have shown in their posts, it really depends on which state you live in. OTOH, if CC was free, one could work during those first two years and put the money aside for the university years. Then a part-time job plus the amount saved while going to community college would really make a difference.