Obama's upcoming community college plan

[In The Great White North]

 

Our CC, City Council, and local school district instituted a program last year giving local residents a discount at the CC for every year they attended the local school district.  A student with 13 years (K-12) will receive free tuition; 3 years = 50%.  Each year above 3 gives an additional 5% discount.

 

The program is funded by a 2% tax initiative and a large donation from the city's business and technology foundation.

 

The program requires an application (secondary to applying to the CC and testing for placement) and a yearly FAFSA.  Spots are limited and are based on first come-first served.  If all 306 graduating seniors chose to apply, very few would be accepted.

 

 

If there's no income test, why do they need a yearly FAFSA?

[Seasider]

How depressing that a well-written paper is so far outside the norm—even at the college level—that it's assumed to be the result of cheating.

This has also happened to my son. He was asked to cart all his book sources into a meeting with the teacher.

[MomtoCandJ]

The HOPE Scholarship is a merit scholarship, it isn't "free college." An average of only 30% of the students that start college with the HOPE Scholarship keep it for all four years.

I had for the 2 yrs needed for my degree. I didn't think the requirements were that high, but I started in fall 2008 and graduated in December of 2010. I was 25 when I started and had only lived in GA for 2 yrs. Maybe it's different for adults? I was married, working part time and had dd1 (was pregnant with her when I started).

[SKL]

Yeah - it is already very easy to go to community college if you can read at all.  Which is great, always has been.  My mom went to CC when she had 4 wee kids at home and no high school diploma (and we were poor).  Then she got a job in a law office.  Nothing against CC at all.  Just very suspicious of the politics.

 

I hope they aren't doing this *instead of* financial aid for 4-year college and higher education.

[Lisbeth]

I am very pro-academics, life-long learning, education, etc.  We learn all day long.  I learn new subjects and skills as often as I can.  However, I think college is becoming High School Part II.  I really question the benefit to society of a lot of degrees. 

[Lady Florida.]

Anything that contributes to a well educated population will benefit the society.

 

I come from a country where almost every student receives a continuing education after high school - either in vocational training, apprenticeship, subject specific colleges, or universities for free, because society has decided an educated workforce is a high priority and in everybody's best interest and thus a worthy use of tax funds.

 

I have a hard time understanding why some think free community college would be a bad idea.

What's wrong with universal access to education?

 

 

 

Because many people in the U.S. are of a mindset where they think other countries can't possibly be doing something better than we would do it. 

[Lady Florida.]

Well, of course there are. That is life. That is why laws, including the constitution, are living documents. We need an educated population to say "Oh, that thing we thought was a good idea, well, it caused something else to happen and now we need to respond to that." Things change, circumstances change, that is the only constant. A democracy, an economy, a education system, a health care system, all systems have to respond to change.

 

Decisions and actions have unintended consequences. So does doing nothing. If something stops being able to respond to changing needs and circumstances it dies. I don't understand why people (and I am not saying that Butter is that type of person) get all upset when something, especially a large undertaking isn't perfect on the first shot. How is perfection even possible? Is it better not to try? We used to do big things in this country, and not all of them worked, but at least we tried. And sometimes the 'unintended consequences' led to some interesting things.

 

Gah! I just feel like we are becoming so fearful and moribound.  I am not advocating going all crazy, just not so fearful about trying something new.

 

Sorry about my little rant, lol.

 

Please don't be sorry. It was well-said.

[regentrude]

If there's no income test, why do they need a yearly FAFSA?

 

there may be some federal funds contributing to the program behind the scenes, and the sustainability of this funding may require a documentation of the families' needs... they might cut the progra if it turns out only millionaire's kids take advantage, YKWIM?

 

[Seasider]

This may be wonderful in theory, but the out working of it seems like it might amount to a pile of bantha fodder.

 

I could accomplish great and mighty things if I could just announce them and leave capable, qualified people to orchestrate and find them. But I have neither executive assistants nor someone else's unlimited purse to draw from. And I'm pretty sure our current government has no access to those things, either.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I don't understand what's unattainable about community college. Both of my parents were drug addicts, I ran away at 16, didn't have a permanent address for 2 years and I went to community college. If I could do it, anyone can. That's why it's there.

 

Eta: And if your life is a complete disaster there are already programs in place. I have a friend whose husband left her with 4 kids. She got a 2 year nursing degree that she didn't pay a dime for.

Free CC is for families like mine.  My mom wouldn't have to be taking out loans against her 401k and apologizing that she doesn't have enough money for christmas presents because my brothers CC tuition and room/board is going to cost her 10,000 this year(that's her and my brothers portion his dad pays the rest).  She makes about 5,000 to much to qualify for student aid but since the 5k puts her in a whole other tax bracket she actually makes less.  It's for DH and I, we also make just a little bit to much to qualify but we have NO extra money for college and the kids will have to take out loans if they want to go anywhere other then the local college while living at home (I hope I can work and that will pay for tuition).  We had already told them they'd have to go to CC for the first 2 years, if it were free then we could afford to send them to a not local state college.  That's a huge advantage for us.

 

So the Free CC is for peoples whose lives are NOT a complete disaster. I hope it goes through.  If we want an educated competitive work force then education needs to be free.

[Wheres Toto]

Without seeing more details it's hard to say how good or bad the program is but it sounds like a good idea in theory.  I do wonder how many states have some form of similar program already.

 

NJ already has a program for high achieving high school students to get free tuition at community colleges, with an extension program that covers transferring to a 4 year state school (I don't think this part covers full cost).   We also have a program connected with unemployment which offers a tuition waiver at state schools if you go for a degree for a demand occupation.

 

Our local community college is $138/credit + $12/credit tech fee, $7/credit registration fee, $25-45/credit location fees if taken off-site or online, plus lab fees for certain classes.  For full time (there doesn't seem to be a flat rate for full time) 18 credits would be: $2826 if there are no location or lab fees, not including books.

 

For my dd's Spring semester at the local state college, she's paying $5819 for 18 credits including all fees but not books or costs associated with living on campus.  She has a few grants and Stafford loans.   If she had absolutely no living expenses and worked 25-30 hours a week year round for $9-$10/hour, she might be able to just pull off paying for her own school. 

 

 

[flyingiguana]

I am very pro-academics, life-long learning, education, etc.  We learn all day long.  I learn new subjects and skills as often as I can.  However, I think college is becoming High School Part II.  I really question the benefit to society of a lot of degrees. 

 

I'm not so convinced.

 

Years ago, high school was not considered the place to learn calculus.

 

Years before that, even trig was only taught in college to those few who needed it.

 

I'm guessing algebra wasn't required before that.

 

There are a lot of courses in the high school curriculum now that would have been considered college material a generation or three ago.  So someone with only a high school education just wouldn't have studied them.  Now we have remedial algebra in college (it's called College Algebra) for those who didn't get it in in high school.

 

And not everyone used to go to high school.

 

Now everyone goes, including people whose brains may not have matured enough for the harder curriculum early on in high school.  And we're surprised we need remedial courses if these students then go on to college?

 

If we think it's worthwhile for everyone to know algebra, I think we have to accept the fact that some students aren't going to understand it in high school.  And that they'll just do it in college.  Without lamenting how stupid all the young people today have become.

 

Also, I would guess that a lot of kids didn't and don't have the maturity to write well in high school (I suspect a lot of us have children that fall into that category).  If they can learn to write when they get to college, that works too.  But we don't need to be uptight about the fact that these people ARE learning to write, even if it is a few years later than our curriculum assumes.

 

It does make one wonder if high school should be required at a particular point in life.  It might work better to send some kids out to work for a year or two and then have education after available and an accepted part of life.

 

Oh, wait, that might be community college for a lot of kids.

[lauranc]

I only went to community college and this was in 2004-2006. I have nothing to say about 4 year universities as I'm ignorant on the subject.

 

College is a privilege, not a right. This country doesn't need more dept or higher taxes.

 

I disagree.   Education (including higher) is a basic human right.  But then, I think healthcare is also a basic human right, so I think that ought to be free as well.

 

I put myself through college as well--- did it as a young, single mother.  I sat in the financial aid office with my baby on my lap asking for loans, grants.. whatever.   I also worked as a way to afford school, living expenses, raising a child alone etc...

 

That was when someone could actually get a degree in 4 years for what that same baby-- who sat with me in the financial aid office -- now  age 20 has to pay each year. 

 

Costs have increased.  I like free education.  I like the idea of having an educated society. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

If there's no income test, why do they need a yearly FAFSA?

 

I am sure it's so the school can receive any Federal funds the student would have been eligible for without the benefit.

 

This info is from the school's website:

 

Apply for financial aid

• Go to fafsa.ed.gov to complete the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) to apply for both federal and state financial aid.
• Apply before March 1st.
• If you are chosen for financial aid verification or additional information, you must supply the information requested within two weeks of receiving, even if you suspect you are not eligible for any financial aid, or you will be ineligible for the scholarship.

Here are some further eligibility requirements:

 

•     Make sure to attend classes within the first 4 days, otherwise you will be dropped for non-attendance.

•     Maintain a minimum 2.0 GPA and successfully complete 67% of your classes with a passing grade.

•     If you lose [funding] due to poor academic performance, you may re-apply after improving your academic performance and continue to meet all criteria. You may be re-admitted to the program once.

 

--

The benefit does not cover dual enrollment courses.  In order to receive the benefit, the student must have graduated from the local high school.

 

ETA:  I found this on a different page:  It is a last-dollar grant, which means that the student must apply for federal and state financial aid first as well as other scholarships.

 

 

[MomtoCandJ]

I just hope that if it does go through, that it goes into effect within the next couple years. That would greatly ease my pursuit of being an RN. I also think though that the degree your are seeking through this plan will get you job right away. My pharmacy tech degree was a joke, if I would have known that I could have been one with out school and that being nationally certified didn't really matter (well at least to Riteaid, I was still low man on the totem pole, treated like a total idiot even though I was already certified and been to school.) Essentially, because I wasn't Riteaid trained all that time and money I spent on school and certification didn't matter.

The national (PTCB) certification I recieved just now implemented that you need to attend an accredited school for initial certification but many pharmacies do not require this certification. About 50% (or more) states do not require any training, certification or registration of technicians (Michigan and Georgia, the last I know, do not require either one).

[wapiti]

Dd1 received her speech therapy through head start (a federally funded early childhood educational program). Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to afford the services she received.

 

As a point of information for lurkers, speech therapy is available through state Early Intervention programs until age 3 and through the local school district for ages 3 and up.  It is not necessary to qualify for Head Start.

[SKL]

I'm not so convinced.

 

Years ago, high school was not considered the place to learn calculus.

 

Years before that, even trig was only taught in college to those few who needed it.

 

I'm guessing algebra wasn't required before that.

 

There are a lot of courses in the high school curriculum now that would have been considered college material a generation or three ago.  So someone with only a high school education just wouldn't have studied them.  Now we have remedial algebra in college (it's called College Algebra) for those who didn't get it in in high school.

 

And not everyone used to go to high school.

 

Now everyone goes, including people whose brains may not have matured enough for the harder curriculum early on in high school.  And we're surprised we need remedial courses if these students then go on to college?

 

If we think it's worthwhile for everyone to know algebra, I think we have to accept the fact that some students aren't going to understand it in high school.  And that they'll just do it in college.  Without lamenting how stupid all the young people today have become.

 

Also, I would guess that a lot of kids didn't and don't have the maturity to write well in high school (I suspect a lot of us have children that fall into that category).  If they can learn to write when they get to college, that works too.  But we don't need to be uptight about the fact that these people ARE learning to write, even if it is a few years later than our curriculum assumes.

 

It does make one wonder if high school should be required at a particular point in life.  It might work better to send some kids out to work for a year or two and then have education after available and an accepted part of life.

 

Oh, wait, that might be community college for a lot of kids.

 

I guess it depends on how far back you go, but for a college-bound student, higher math has always been offered and expected (though not required).  My personal experience goes back at least to 1980, when Calculus was offered in high school to anyone who wanted to take it (and passed trigonometry).  And physics too.

 

It may be regional, but in my location, a CC education would be of a lower standard than the college prep English I took in my rural public high school.

 

Here, CC is mainly effective for adults who didn't apply themselves in public school, and now they realize it actually does matter if you can write properly etc.  It is also used to save money on the first 2 years of college, but the level of education is not remotely comparable to a university.  (One can of course supplement one's education by using the library etc.)  It is also used to offer a college experience to special needs adults.  All of which is great, but let's not pretend CC is comparable to 2 years of regular university - at least where I live.

[MomtoCandJ]

As a point of information for lurkers, speech therapy is available through state Early Intervention programs until age 3 and through the local school district for ages 3 and up. It is not necessary to qualify for Head Start.

No, though Head Start is an income based program. Dh and I were on the border of making too much but dd1's speech impairment gave her more "points" that allowed her to get into the program. Income (or lack of), any delays or other physical/mental issues, home environment and lots of other things carry points.

The school district where we live requires you to drive to a certain school to receive services for those older than 3 but too young for kindergarten if you don't qualify for Head Start. At that time it would have been a hardship with gas, and I would have had to stay the entire time (distance and gas).

[redsquirrel]

Here are a couple interesting article about what is known of the plan:

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/free-community-college-revolutionary-not-for-the-reason-you-think

Here is a clip:

 

"

But the real revolutionary nature of this proposal is not what it means for the students who may save a few thousand dollars in tuition—it's the implications for states.

At first glance, the most important number in the proposal might be $0, the tuition to students. It isn't. The most important number is 25 percent. That's the share of costs that the federal government would expect participating states to bear. Picking up just one-fourth of the tab is a modest ask. But it's also a revolutionary one. That's because, to date, the federal government has never had clear expectations for exactly what states must do to support higher education. It's not like K-12 or special education where strict rules require states to maintain certain support or risk facing stiff financial penalties.

Instead, the federal role in higher education has entirely bypassed states in any formal role. Dollars flow to institutions through what are essentially vouchers to students. Sure, there used to be an unwritten expectation that states would play a part in this by subsidizing the operations of public colleges to keep costs down, but the only thing holding them to such a compact was the goodwill of governors and legislatures and maybe pressure from residents.

The result is nearly three decades of the wild west of higher education funding."

 

And here is on from NYT (NYT has a limited number of articles per month, FYI)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/upshot/the-roots-of-obamas-ambitious-college-plan.html?ref=politics&abt=0002&abg=0

 

Here is a clip:

"

The roots of President Obama’s ambitious proposal for free community college can be found in a 2008 book by the economists Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz called “The Race Between Education and Technology.â€

The book, a combination of economics and history, tells the story of how the United States built the world’s most successful economy by building its most successful education system. At the heart of that system was the universal high school movement of the early 20th century, which turned the United States into the world’s most educated country. These educated high school graduates — white-collar and blue-collar alike — powered the prosperity of the 20th century, Ms. Goldin and Mr. Katz demonstrated.

“The 20th century was the American century,†they wrote, “because it was the human-capital century.â€

 

and something else from this article I found interesting:

 

"On Friday, he will travel to Tennessee to announce a proposal to make community college free for any student who enrolls at least part-time and maintains a 2.5 grade point average. In a show of rare bipartisan force, he will be accompanied by the state’s Republican governor, Bill Haslam, as well as its two Republican senators, Lamar Alexander and Bob Corker, White House officials said.....Any state joining the program would need to pay 25 percent of the cost. White House officials won’t yet give a cost estimate, but I imagine the annual cost could reach something like $15 billion dollars a year — not enormous in a $3.5 trillion federal budget but not tiny either."

 

 

[Slache]

I disagree.   Education (including higher) is a basic human right.  But then, I think healthcare is also a basic human right, so I think that ought to be free as well.

 

I put myself through college as well--- did it as a young, single mother.  I sat in the financial aid office with my baby on my lap asking for loans, grants.. whatever.   I also worked as a way to afford school, living expenses, raising a child alone etc...

 

That was when someone could actually get a degree in 4 years for what that same baby-- who sat with me in the financial aid office -- now  age 20 has to pay each year. 

 

Costs have increased.  I like free education.  I like the idea of having an educated society. 

 

We have completely different ideas as to what this country should be so I'll just respectfully disagree.

[LucyStoner]

I did pay for it. I worked full time the entire time. I'm just saying it was attainable.

My first term of community college was $515 (which I enrolled late at after deciding taking my out of state scholarship was impractical) with all the fees and stuff. The same school, now 15-16 years later is $2000 or so. What was attainable is far less so now.

 

You live in California, where the CC are both fairly good and known for being heavily funded by the state. You might not realize how expensive it has gotten elsewhere, especially for kids who are considered dependent students whose parents make too much to get aid but who can't or won't help them pay.

[Slache]

Free CC is for families like mine.  My mom wouldn't have to be taking out loans against her 401k and apologizing that she doesn't have enough money for christmas presents because my brothers CC tuition and room/board is going to cost her 10,000 this year(that's her and my brothers portion his dad pays the rest).  She makes about 5,000 to much to qualify for student aid but since the 5k puts her in a whole other tax bracket she actually makes less.  It's for DH and I, we also make just a little bit to much to qualify but we have NO extra money for college and the kids will have to take out loans if they want to go anywhere other then the local college while living at home (I hope I can work and that will pay for tuition).  We had already told them they'd have to go to CC for the first 2 years, if it were free then we could afford to send them to a not local state college.  That's a huge advantage for us.

 

So the Free CC is for peoples whose lives are NOT a complete disaster. I hope it goes through.  If we want an educated competitive work force then education needs to be free.

See, I don't think the parents income should have any baring on what a student qualifies for. When I was 18 I was an adult and had to pay my own way. I think that's how it should be. If a parent wants to be kind to their child and help out that's great. I think the whole system is wrong. Too wrong to go into right now, but I am 100% positive that more handouts is not the answer.

[LucyStoner]

Slache, community college for many right now (including probably your family from what you have posted) was/is only available due to the "handout" of pell grants.

[Slache]

I understand why people think that college is a privilege....and to a point I agree.

 

But, have you tried to get a job lately without a degree?

 

 

Upper education is no longer a luxury. It has become a necessity. 

 

Kris

Yes. My job has nothing to do with what I studied and my husband didn't go to college and makes well above minimum wage with excellent benefits.

[Arcadia]

With the overcrowding and the budget cuts in recent years at California's community colleges, I'll wait until more info on state implementation is out. I'm in a high population density area.

 

My local CC charge $46 per unit in their flyers to residents in their boundaries. It's free for dual enrolled public high school students in the local school district by agreement, the district pays CC for the courses.

 

ETA:

The country I am from, universities and polytechnics are cheap and no parental income info is required. It's a rat race to get in though.

 

The only time parental income is required is for bursaries which are needs based, no minimum grades required. The scholarships are merit based and ignore income.

[Slache]

My first term of community college was $515 (which I enrolled late at after deciding taking my out of state scholarship was impractical) with all the fees and stuff. The same school, now 15-16 years later is $2000 or so. What was attainable is far less so now.

 

You live in California, where the CC are both fairly good and known for being heavily funded by the state. You might not realize how expensive it has gotten elsewhere, especially for kids who are considered dependent students whose parents make too much to get aid but who can't or won't help them pay.

 

I live in Portland and went to PCC. I was born in Silicon Valley. I don't know what my college was like compared to the rest of the country. I don't care. Like I said, the system is messed up, but this is not the answer.

[Slache]

Slache, community college for many right now (including probably your family from what you have posted) was/is only available due to the "handout" of pell grants.

 

Nope. I got nothing.

[LucyStoner]

I live in Portland and went to PCC. I was born in Silicon Valley. I don't know what my college was like compared to the rest of the country. I don't care. Like I said, the system is messed up, but this is not the answer.

Oregon taking serious steps towards a tuition free state college system, as I understand it.

[MomtoCandJ]

Yes. My job has nothing to do with what I studied and my husband didn't go to college and makes well above minimum wage with excellent benefits.

Yes but those jobs are far and few between now. My dh doesn't have a degree either and now makes decent money but if it hadn't been for his cousin taking a chance with him, we wouldn't be any where near where we are now.

Now those jobs that at one time didn't require a degree now do. To get a decent job without a higher than high school diploma education takes a lot of luck and people willing to take the time to train someone (not many are willing to train).

[LucyStoner]

Nope. I got nothing.

If you lived in my state now, you would not be able to attend community college on your wages alone provided you were paying all your living expenses and earning what you can make as a teen with. I worked my way through in 1998 on wages that are the same or higher than what's there now and it was hard enough then and that was with a private scholarship and a pell grant. Granted, I was supporting a teenage sibling but that's not so different than the millions of non-traditionally aged students who have a kid or two.

[Vida Winter]

Then again you could look at this as a worthwhile investment.  If more people graduate from college without tons of debt, those people will be more likely to spend money which in turn helps the economy. 

 

However, you will be taking money away from productive households (taxpayers) to pay for the program. That money would have been spent in the economy in some way, or saved for retirement, or any number of productive functions. That is an unseen loss.

[Arcadia]

At first glance, the most important number in the proposal might be $0, the tuition to students. It isn't. The most important number is 25 percent. That's the share of costs that the federal government would expect participating states to bear. Picking up just one-fourth of the tab is a modest ask.

 

I'm thinking the CC will just balance their check books by taking in more foreign/non-resident students. After all UC is already asking for a 5% per year fee hike for the next five years.

[QueenCat]

This is modeled after a program in Tennessee (I think). Does anyone have experience with it there?

 

I think it's a good idea. I just don't know the logistics. The fact is we have a lot of people graduating high school prepared to do nothing. CCs provide technical training in a lot of areas. Our economy needs people who can do things besides run a cash register.

 

It just started this  year (or rather, high school students could apply for next year) so it's too soon to see how well it works. It is funded by our state lottery.

[QueenCat]

I don't know. After the promised free healthcare, and what that's turned into, I'm loathe to believe anything this President offers up as free and for our benefit. 

 

Four years ago I would have loved this idea. Having seen the health care issue play out  (which I also thought was a good idea.....), I'd rather not have my taxes now also pay for everyone else's ability to go to college, especially when those taxes are/will be eating into my ability to then pay for my boys to get full 4 year degrees (or more), save for retirement, afford necessary therapies for my youngest, etc. 

 

I don't ever remember hearing, by Obama, that the Affordable Healthcare Act would result in "free" healthcare. Rather, that more people would be able to get it with subsidies . That has turned out to be TRUE as many now get it that couldn't before. Subsidies are only part of that reason but seriously, the President never suggested it would be free for all. Or even many.

[Katy]

One thing that's a huge difference between the US and places that have heavily subsidized degree programs- we have the ability to apply to any program we want, to change majors, to decide when we're older that we should have taken school more seriously and we go back and get degrees...  in some areas you take exams through high school, apply to competitive programs, and if you aren't on track at 15 because of a poor family life you can't go back when you're 30 and fix it later.  You just go to vocational school.

 

Having to pay for the programs makes education AND society much more democratic.  We can always go back here.  I don't want to give up on that freedom.   My parents both got off course in high school due to family situations, went back to college as adults, and ended up in grad school.  Their ability to go back to school and get college degrees then grad school in their 30's changed our lives.  If they hadn't had that ability I would be in a very different place today.

 

Sometimes I think there is a push for "free" from the left in the name of getting rid of elitism, but the end result would ultimately be more elitism.  I like that I can choose to go back to school for anything, at any time.

 

Honestly with all of the amazing educational resources availible for free online, I think this money would be much better spent on coming up with a testing program that was universally accepted as university credits.  Make those tests free or very cheap.  I would still like if vocational tech plans were pushed a bit more by the government, but there is no way I would ever want to trade freedom for "free if you're 18 and have a decent GPA, not availible to anyone else."

[Arcadia]

K-12 is free but you are assigned a school based on residential address. If CC becomes free, is it going to be assigned based on address again because some CCs are better managed than others.

[redsquirrel]

K-12 is free but you are assigned a school based on residential address. If CC becomes free, is it going to be assigned based on address again because some CCs are better managed than others.

 

Really? How do you know this? 

[SKL]

Parking unemployed people in CC is also a way to mask unemployment issues.

[EmseB]

However, you will be taking money away from productive households (taxpayers) to pay for the program. That money would have been spent in the economy in some way, or saved for retirement, or any number of productive functions. That is an unseen loss.

 

No, I think you missed it, the plan is for free Community College.

 

 

 

 

:laugh:

[Serenade]

 I think this money would be much better spent on coming up with a testing program that was universally accepted as university credits.  

 

 

That would be so awesome.

 

I think back on some of the people in our own country's history who were able to become lawyers without ever having to go to a college or university.  They studied on their own, occasionally getting help from a sitting practitioner, and then they had to defend their knowledge, and voila, they could practice law. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My first term of community college was $515 (which I enrolled late at after deciding taking my out of state scholarship was impractical) with all the fees and stuff. The same school, now 15-16 years later is $2000 or so. What was attainable is far less so now.

 

You live in California, where the CC are both fairly good and known for being heavily funded by the state. You might not realize how expensive it has gotten elsewhere, especially for kids who are considered dependent students whose parents make too much to get aid but who can't or won't help them pay.

 

Yeah and income levels have not risen that much.

 

Tuition in some places has well more than doubled but during the same time minimum wage has not more than doubled.  I bring up minimum wage because that is the only fairly sure amount one can hope to make with no experience and no degree. 

 

And this is still all dependent in large part on how much a parent is able or willing to help their kid.  My parents did not buy me a car.  They did not pay for my driving lessons.  They would not even let me use their car.  They did allow me to live at home so I did not have to pay rent, but I had to buy anything I needed including pay for dental bills, medical bills, and my glasses (which are not cheap because my vision is lousy).  I would never have been able to go to college at that point in time without out that little bit of help. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That would be so awesome.

 

I think back on some of the people in our own country's history who were able to become lawyers without ever having to go to a college or university.  They studied on their own, occasionally getting help from a sitting practitioner, and then they had to defend their knowledge, and voila, they could practice law. 

 

I like that idea too.  As it is now it seems what is valued is how much money someone can manage to fork over to pay for their piece of paper.  If it really was only about whether or not someone put in the time to study then they'd allow people to test their way through the piece of paper and that could save them money.  But that would mean someone else isn't getting a chunk of the money. 

[SKL]

I am also concerned that as we subsidize higher education more and more, all it does is get more and more expensive.  It's already way too expensive.  I'd rather look into ways to reduce and maybe redirect the money we already spend on higher education.  This could make a real education (as opposed to remedial adult high school) accessible to more serious students.

[Arcadia]

Really? How do you know this?

Statistics on graduation rates of full time students, successful transfer rates of full time students and the budgetary reports are available for people (like some of my auditor neighbors) who scrutinise reports for their entertainment.

 

Like for my local "average" CC, less than half full timers graduate (ETA: that includes AA and successful transfers). Not a good stat regardless of where funding comes from.

 

Add on to that, if CC is free, are parents going to give room and board to their kids for two more years after high school instead if "kicking them out" at 18? Rentals here are crazy high.

[Evan]

That would be so awesome.

 

I think back on some of the people in our own country's history who were able to become lawyers without ever having to go to a college or university.  They studied on their own, occasionally getting help from a sitting practitioner, and then they had to defend their knowledge, and voila, they could practice law. 

 

There are still seven states where one can be admitted to the bar without obtaining a JD.

[SKL]

I am also curious as to how many states currently pay less than 25% of the cost of CC?  What about the local share - would that go away?  (Would local control also go away?)  Or does the local share get counted in the state share?

 

So what are the implications if the Feds pay 75% of the cost of CC?

 

Will there be a Common Core at CC?  :P

[Vida Winter]

No, I think you missed it, the plan is for free Community College.

 

 

 

 

:laugh:

 

 

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.   :cheers2:

[bettyandbob]

Add on to that, if CC is free, are parents going to give room and board to their kids for two more years after high school instead if "kicking them out" at 18? Rentals here are crazy high.

 

If I kicked my dc out at 18 they'd be homeless. COL in my area is insane. So, I won't be kicking their feet out of under them while they are beginning jobs, job training, and finishing education.

 

I could have moved out at 18, but minimum wage ($3.35) could actually buy a lot more back then. Tuition, room and board at the state flagship school is almost 10 times what it was back then. Minimum wage is not 10 times higher today. If the cost of education had risen at the same rate as minimum wage, I might feel differently about whether or not something like this was needed.

[Catwoman]

Add on to that, if CC is free, are parents going to give room and board to their kids for two more years after high school instead if "kicking them out" at 18? Rentals here are crazy high.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never make my child leave home at 18, nor would I charge him rent to live in his own home, so count me among the people who would be thrilled if my ds decides to live at home while he attends college -- community or otherwise.

[EmseB]

Yeah and income levels have not risen that much.

 

Tuition in some places has well more than doubled but during the same time minimum wage has not more than doubled.  I bring up minimum wage because that is the only fairly sure amount one can hope to make with no experience and no degree. 

 

And this is still all dependent in large part on how much a parent is able or willing to help their kid.  My parents did not buy me a car.  They did not pay for my driving lessons.  They would not even let me use their car.  They did allow me to live at home so I did not have to pay rent, but I had to buy anything I needed including pay for dental bills, medical bills, and my glasses (which are not cheap because my vision is lousy).  I would never have been able to go to college at that point in time without out that little bit of help. 

 

A large part of rising tuition costs is government subsidies and loans, which essentially gives the college a "floor" for what they charge.  Piling on more government subsidies and loans to make CC "free" is not going to help reduce the costs associated.