Obama's upcoming community college plan

[MomtoCandJ]

And, I 'd like to point out that there are socioeconomic fixes and generational family problems that also need to be addressed because we could get the best educational system in the world implemented and still have a LARGE number of children fall through the cracks through no fault of the school district. Take Highland Park school district in Wayne County, MI. The average kindergartener arrives at school with a working vocabulary of 25 words. Think about that. 25 words...that means that in speech development they are significantly delayed. This is not usually due to LD's per se, but to lack of speech interaction with older children and adults...an awful lot of time left unattended or at least without someone interacting with the child. What is a K teacher supposed to do? In order to build vocabulary, the teachers there begin with BOARD BOOKS!

 

So, we need to absorb that. We need to think about what generational poverty, violence, malnutrition, etc. does to children because the best solutions will be the ones that fix the foundation as early as possible, not slap a butterfly bandage on it later.

The last part about kindergarten..... This where HeadStart needs to be more present. HeadStart is free and in many cases can provide free transportation. There are a lot of other services provided by HeadStart and I think it's a shame that more isn't being done to ensure that all children have access to those programs.

I would benefit from free college but I would rather pay out the rear for student loans to fund HeadStart or some other free early childhood education.

I know I may be in the minority but what good is college if the kids are so far behind in the beginning? It takes more than a year for those kids to catch up and in the mean time they fall farther and farther behind

[G5052]

Is this plan going to let students whose high schools dont offer anything more than high school diploma reqd courses get into STEM? Black leaders have been out to Silicon Valley recently wondering why their kids cant get in. We already know Common Core does not lead to STEM level college level math by design. Right now, it appears that this plan promotes middle class students to head for the CC, increasing diversity there, but both low and middle class students will have a hard time academically and financially at the U as they will not be prepared for the content and studying. Gap filling takes time..and right now only poverty students are getting the support needed to succeed. I dont see the middle class increasing under this plan.

 

Right now, son is in 2nd year of college. I have him on the 5 year plan so he can gap fill. His friends parents dont realize what is going on, and are pulling their kids out after this semester. They hope life experience and free time to read will help these kids level up so they can go back and succeed in 2 years.

 

I agree with this. If you follow the track that the local public high schools follow for math, getting into STEM is going to be unlikely. Even the pre-nursing students are failing the required math in droves, and they don't have to go that far. There's a lot of discussion about how to bring them up to that point. The reality is that if you go to college with poor math skills (i.e. have to start with remedial math), you're far less likely to complete even a two-year STEM degree.  

 

The pricey private and Catholic prep schools seem to do fine, as do the homeschooled kids who have had rigorous math.

[G5052]

Here the middle class afterschools...engineers diy and everyone else uses kumon type of settings.Those kids do fine if they can get into the honors /accel program....which is the public school equivalent of private school. But, seats are limited. There were always more qualified students than seats, until NCLB dumbed down K12. Parents are wisin g up and pulling kids out, but we have ten years of middle class students who are deficient to the point that com munity college is difficult...and these arent poverty or low iq children. They wont be going to CC...they are enlisting if they cant get a union card or join their parents business.

 

Yes, a friend of mine who is homeschooling her last teen just opened a Mathnasium (similar to Kumon) because the parents who have kids in the public schools and can afford it are looking for outside tutoring, and those who are private school are already doing that on top of the $30,000/year tuition.

 

Local math tutors are charging $50/session for high school and are overbooked, so the $250/month fee for twice a week with flexible hours looks good to them.  Not too many homeschoolers I know can afford that though.

[MBM]

Many lifelong learning problems stem from chronic early childhood trauma. Many kids are growing up abused and/or neglected and this leads to a lot of internal chaos. They might look okay on the outside but they're not okay on the inside. The statistics I've read state that 1 in 6 girls are sexually abused. 1 in 20 boys are sexually abused, 1 in 4 grow up in alcoholic homes, 1 in 3 have seen their parents get physically violent toward one another, etc. Add to that the lack of consistent, positive support that many families don't get (look how many here receive negative, unhelpful support on a regular basis), and it's not surprising to see that kids are experiencing problems. Things don't magically change for them when they reach adulthood. This seems to be a key part of our education problem.

 

Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist who specializes in childhood trauma, is going to speak at our school district this February. I will be interested to hear what he has to say. If anyone is interested, he has written some books about childhood trauma, how it affects a person, and what can be done to help. Bessel van der Kolk, Bruce Ecker, Peter Levine, Judith Lewis Herman and others also have also written about chronic abuse and neglect. I'm ordering van der Kolk and Ecker's books today. Both look really interesting.

 

[MBM]

Yes, a friend of mine who is homeschooling her last teen just opened a Mathnasium (similar to Kumon) because the parents who have kids in the public schools and can afford it are looking for outside tutoring, and those who are private school are already doing that on top of the $30,000/year tuition.

 

Local math tutors are charging $50/session for high school and are overbooked, so the $250/month fee for twice a week with flexible hours looks good to them.  Not too many homeschoolers I know can afford that though.

 

Our public high school offers free tutoring to any student before, during and after school. Some tutors will even meet on weekends if that would work better for the student. The tutors are retired teachers and students who know the material. Some of them also travel to help students in other districts in the Chicago area. I think it's a great idea that more districts should try to implement.

 

[redsquirrel]

One thing that comes to mind when I see people talking about the dismal state of education in their city or their state, is that this is mostly a matter of local responsibility, no? One thing I have learned on this board is that the quality of education varies by a huge amount depending on where you live. I see regional differences, differences between states and even within localities. If the local schools aren't producing productive students then that is a matter to bring up with the school boards and state legislatures.

 

I feel like in my state the public schools are overall, acceptable. The more time I spend on this board the better and better I feel about the over state of education around here. Yes, there are differences in areas and that mostly depends on income. The poorest areas have worse schools and the wealthier are better. But, a middle class kid, with a typical amount of support at home can do just fine, if she is willing to do her part of the job.

 

I see people here saying that this plan for subsidized CC isn't all that helpful b/c what is really needed are better K-12 schools in their area. What action would you like to see the Federal gov't do to address this? Now, maybe your answer is nothing because you don't want to see the fed involved at all and that is fine.  But, then do you also want the fed out of higher education? Well, if nothing changes then nothing changes. I see a trend in this thread of people saying that the problem is k-12 and that is where the help is needed. Ok, what help? National standards, lol?  And FTR I think national educational standards are a great idea and could go a long way to dealing with a lot of the inequality I see discussed on this board.

 

And, again, I seriously doubt this plan is going to ever come to pass, if it does I think it is mainly going to benefit people going back to school. All those friends of mine who when back to nursing school, for example. My son and his friends, who are in high school, are monumentally uninterested in attending a CC.

 

There is one part of the proposal that I find the most interesting. The plan sets a minimum of $$, percentage wise, that the states must contribute to their CC system. I think that right there will make a big difference. CCs are under state control in terms of spending. The $ they get is up to the whims of the legislature. I think that can lead to some pretty dismal CCs. This plan (which isn't happening, lol) creates the possibility of dependable funding for CCs. And only certain certification and degree programs are subsidized so that will allow some CCs to expand their offerings. Right now they mostly depend on what the qualified teachers in the area are willing to teach.

 

Given what I have read about this, the idea isn't that CCs become 'highschool 2.0' but that they become hubs of adult education and training. They allow workers the flexibility to get more training or improve their work skills. I know some folks who are really struggling b/c one adult in the family didn't go or didn't finish college. Now that person is 35 and they are trapped in dead end jobs with no hope of upwards mobility. I think subsidized CC can be a real economic benefit to that family and to the community. If someone can get a better job with more earning potential the entire community benefits. Now, will some high school students go to a CC who might not have gone? Yes. For some of them it will be purely economic. They are being clever and avoiding 2 years of debt. For others, maybe a 4 year college isn't within their reach economically. Others maybe they don't come from a family with a tradition of higher education and this will allow them to challenge themselves. But I really think this is most useful for adults who have been in the workforce.

 

Our economy is going to require more and more that adults be open to return to school to learn new skills. I know that if (when) I return to the workforce I will need some basic computer or business training. I have thought that I should take some classes at the local CC but I have no idea how we would afford it.  I already have a four year degree and some grad school, but I could stand to learn some new skills. All of us are going to have to be flexible and willing to move jobs and take on new challenges later in life. This will make it possible that fewer people will be left behind. And when businesses etc leave an area, maybe people will stand a chance at learning new skills so they can support themselves. And if a new business wants to locate in an areas people can take classes to learn new skills.

 

I think that continuing education and learning new skills is going to be the responsibility of every adult who wants to participate in the workforce. But, if it isn't easily accessible then we will end up with our middle aged and older workers left behind. We will also lose more businesses to countries who do make the investment in adult continuing education and training.

[FaithManor]

Actually, the particular problems that Michigan has need to be solved at the state level. Michigan needs to take the bull by the horns and stop making stupid decisions. On that point, I have little hope.

 

If they ever made some good choices in this regard, I can tell you it's going to take an infusion of money to begin the clean up in Wayne County schools that will be necessary to start improving the situation.

 

BUT, there is one thing the feds can do and that is repeal No Child Left Behind. That was a ridiculous, dangerous, destructive piece of insanity voted into law and it needs to go away pronto.

[Lolly]

The last part about kindergarten..... This where HeadStart needs to be more present. HeadStart is free and in many cases can provide free transportation. There are a lot of other services provided by HeadStart and I think it's a shame that more isn't being done to ensure that all children have access to those programs.

I would benefit from free college but I would rather pay out the rear for student loans to fund HeadStart or some other free early childhood education.

I know I may be in the minority but what good is college if the kids are so far behind in the beginning? It takes more than a year for those kids to catch up and in the mean time they fall farther and farther behind

 

Did you know that programs like Head Start have done nothing to improve the educational outcomes of the children they have serviced? In fact, the children who participated in Head Start programs were actually further behind in some areas than children in similar socioeconomic groups who did not participate in the program. The sad fact is that home-life is where the difference is made. Taking a preschooler out of a poor education enviroment home and putting them into "school"does nothing to aid their development (at least that is what studies are finding). So, perhaps putting $ into furthering the parents education and therefore economic situation would have a more positive impact on preschoolers than trying to put them into a program themselves? Interesting idea...

[regentrude]

Did you know that programs like Head Start have done nothing to improve the educational outcomes of the children they have serviced? In fact, the children who participated in Head Start programs were actually further behind in some areas than children in similar socioeconomic groups who did not participate in the program.

 

I had not heard this - do you have a source of data that support this?

 

 

 

The sad fact is that home-life is where the difference is made. Taking a preschooler out of a poor education enviroment home and putting them into "school"does nothing to aid their development (at least that is what studies are finding). So, perhaps putting $ into furthering the parents education and therefore economic situation would have a more positive impact on preschoolers than trying to put them into a program themselves?

 

Sadly, I have to agree. I do not think any educational system - short of removing all children from their parents and raising them in institutions - will ever be able to level the differences that are created in the home.

I mean, 25 words vocabulary in non-LD a 5 y/o? That's criminally negligent. (Why do people have kids if they don't care to talk to them?)

 

In our area, we have a Parents As Teachers program that gets very good results.

[regentrude]

Actually, the particular problems that Michigan has need to be solved at the state level. Michigan needs to take the bull by the horns and stop making stupid decisions. On that point, I have little hope.

 

What measures even could a state take that get people to talk to their children?

[redsquirrel]

What measures even could a state take that get people to talk to their children?

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/us/to-help-language-skills-of-children-a-study-finds-text-their-parents-with-tips.html

 

With research showing language gaps between the children of affluent parents and those from low-income families emerging at an early age, educators have puzzled over how best to reach parents and guide them to do things like read to their children and talk to them regularly.

A new study shows that mobile technology may offer a cheap and effective solution. The research, released by the National Bureau of Economic Research this month, found that preschoolers whose parents received text messages with brief tips on reading to their children or helping them sound out letters and words performed better on literacy tests than children whose parents did not receive such messages.

 

obviously not a solution, but you did ask..... :laugh:

[idnib]

. 

 

[EmseB]

I had not heard this - do you have a source of data that support this?

 

 

 

I believe the PP is probably referring to the HHS Head Start Impact study, here.  (It's a pdf)

[SKL]

I find it hard to believe that average working vocabulary in any US population is 25 words at KG age.

 

I recall reading (long ago) that up to age 3, kids in poorer groups scored higher in intelligence than their wealthier counterparts, presumably because they have to (or are allowed to) do more for themselves at a younger age.

 

And just being around humans and a TV (as most poor kids are) would give a kid a vocabulary where they could hold a conversation at age 5.  Of course there are kids who are so neglected and abused that they won't, but we're talking "average."

 

In short, I'm skeptical of how these kids were evaluated.

 

I don't deny that they are behind academically, but supposedly it does not matter if academics don't start prior to KG age.

 

The issue of trauma affecting academic ability is believable.  Unfortunately there isn't a good solution for these kids, that I've heard proposed.  On the other hand, kids on the whole are remarkably resilient.

[SKL]

Maybe education, billboards, etc telling parents how important it is? They do that around here re: reading to your kids. 

 

It's difficult to set aside that it shouldn't even have to come to this. 

 

Messages from outside won't be as effective as community members spreading the word from within.

 

I've been active in a literacy organization for a big city.  They come up with various ideas that work up to a point.  One of the best is getting retired grandmas from the community to train in childhood literacy and use that training in the community.

 

[FaithManor]

I find it hard to believe that average working vocabulary in any US population is 25 words at KG age.

 

I recall reading (long ago) that up to age 3, kids in poorer groups scored higher in intelligence than their wealthier counterparts, presumably because they have to (or are allowed to) do more for themselves at a younger age.

 

And just being around humans and a TV (as most poor kids are) would give a kid a vocabulary where they could hold a conversation at age 5.  Of course there are kids who are so neglected and abused that they won't, but we're talking "average."

 

In short, I'm skeptical of how these kids were evaluated.

 

I don't deny that they are behind academically, but supposedly it does not matter if academics don't start prior to KG age.

 

The issue of trauma affecting academic ability is believable.  Unfortunately there isn't a good solution for these kids, that I've heard proposed.  On the other hand, kids on the whole are remarkably resilient.

If you recall, I was referring to Highland Park schools in Wayne County, Detroit. I did not imply anything about the national or even the state average. It is a documented statistic based on a lawsuit the ACLU brought against the teachers in the school district for failure to be able to teach the children to read functionally.

[SKL]

If you recall, I was referring to Highland Park schools in Wayne County, Detroit. I did not imply anything about the national or even the state average. It is a documented statistic based on a lawsuit the ACLU brought against the teachers in the school district for failure to be able to teach the children to read functionally.

 

I still don't believe it.  Even if the population was 100 extremely poor and isolated families, I still wouldn't believe it.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I still don't believe it.  Even if the population was 100 extremely poor and isolated families, I still wouldn't believe it.

 

 

Well, you don't have to believe it for it to be true.

 

2o years ago I worked in a doctor's office in an inner city community. Part of my job was to teach new mothers how to hold, feed, and bathe their babies, and how to communicate with their children. I'm talking about teaching them that eye contact matters, to chat with baby as you go through routines, etc. I made written and pictorial charts to hang up at home as reminders for those who wanted them.

 

I needed to teach these very basic things because they didn't know. Did they love their children? YES. Did they listen, and learn, and come back for more? Not all, but the majority. One little 20yo medical assistant, under a trusted family doctor's direction, could change the destiny of a hundred babies just by sharing how to look at baby and talk to him. Imagine what a real campaign in a community could do in just one generation.

[Azalea]

Head Start is a nice idea that doesn't seem to work: 

 

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/early_years/2012/12/head_start_advantages_mostly_gone_by_third_grade_study_finds.html

 

But if it provides a free and safe environment for children to be while their parents work, it should be funded before college is funded. 

[MBM]

Did you know that programs like Head Start have done nothing to improve the educational outcomes of the children they have serviced? In fact, the children who participated in Head Start programs were actually further behind in some areas than children in similar socioeconomic groups who did not participate in the program. The sad fact is that home-life is where the difference is made. Taking a preschooler out of a poor education enviroment home and putting them into "school"does nothing to aid their development (at least that is what studies are finding). So, perhaps putting $ into furthering the parents education and therefore economic situation would have a more positive impact on preschoolers than trying to put them into a program themselves? Interesting idea...

 

I am not sure you mean this study, but here is James Heckman's response to the National Head Start Impact Study that came out in 2012. Basically, he said there were some key flaws. It's a short response.

 

http://heckmanequation.org/content/getting-our-heads-around-head-start

 

This site has some information about Heckman's research on the effects of early childhood programs. Some of the long-term results have been quite good and that is what many are not taking into account. The Perry Project is one program that actually had good results many years later. 

 

https://heckman.uchicago.edu/page/current-projects-0

https://heckman.uchicago.edu/page/early-childhood-interventions-0

https://heckman.uchicago.edu/gallery/research-one-pagers-current-projects

 

Heckman discussing different programs, Head Start, and other things:

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/14/james-heckman-in-early-childhood-education-quality-really-matters/

 

It is best for children to grow up with at least one attentive adult who doesn't have significant problems but that is not happening with too many children. For example, this study from Princeton shows that 40% of children do not form a secure attachment to even one adult. The problems those 40% can develop affect not only them but society, too.  

 

http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S39/59/37A89/index.xml?section=topstories

 

The ideal is for children to grow up in intact families that don't have significant problems but for others, early childhood interventions like those listed in the link below and like Alicia Lieberman's parent-child psychotherapy, can be enough to stop generational abuse and neglect so that the next generations can have even better chances in life.

 

https://heckman.uchicago.edu/page/early-childhood-interventions-0

 

 

 

[FaithManor]

I still don't believe it.  Even if the population was 100 extremely poor and isolated families, I still wouldn't believe it.

 

Okay then. That's fine. You don't have to teach there and you aren't one of the teachers being sued so it probably isn't important to the larger population of the country.

[MomtoCandJ]

Did you know that programs like Head Start have done nothing to improve the educational outcomes of the children they have serviced? In fact, the children who participated in Head Start programs were actually further behind in some areas than children in similar socioeconomic groups who did not participate in the program. The sad fact is that home-life is where the difference is made. Taking a preschooler out of a poor education enviroment home and putting them into "school"does nothing to aid their development (at least that is what studies are finding). So, perhaps putting $ into furthering the parents education and therefore economic situation would have a more positive impact on preschoolers than trying to put them into a program themselves? Interesting idea...

There is more than one type of HeadStart, I'm more referring to the home based program where the teacher comes to the child's home. Dd1 was in HeadStart for 2 years and I was on the parent Policy Coucil board for the second year. I know that the classroom setting isn't best for all kids but it was for dd1 when she recieved speech services. I'm speaking as a parent who has had her child in HeadStart and has her child benefit from the program

[maize]

 

 

And just being around humans and a TV (as most poor kids are) would give a kid a vocabulary where they could hold a conversation at age 5.  Of course there are kids who are so neglected and abused that they won't, but we're talking "average."

 

 

There is quite a bit of research showing that children do not learn language effectively from TV. 

 

And there are also studies showing that lower class/less educated parents talk to their children less than more educated and affluent parents.

 

It is sad :(

 

I do think parent education campaigns could do a lot of good. Actually, I think high schools might do well to include parent education in their curriculum-- teach high schoolers about child development and parenting before they become parents.

[regentrude]

2o years ago I worked in a doctor's office in an inner city community. Part of my job was to teach new mothers how to hold, feed, and bathe their babies, and how to communicate with their children. I'm talking about teaching them that eye contact matters, to chat with baby as you go through routines, etc. I made written and pictorial charts to hang up at home as reminders for those who wanted them.

 

I needed to teach these very basic things because they didn't know. Did they love their children? YES. Did they listen, and learn, and come back for more? Not all, but the majority. One little 20yo medical assistant, under a trusted family doctor's direction, could change the destiny of a hundred babies just by sharing how to look at baby and talk to him. Imagine what a real campaign in a community could do in just one generation.

 

So looking at, and communicating with, your baby is learned behavior and not instinctive? (I don't mean that snarky at all; it's a serious question.) Seeing animals interact with their young, I would have thought that this would be basic instinct.

Or is it that it would be basic instinct, but is overridden by poor cultural/experiential programming?

[maize]

Research on the impact of parents talking to children:

 

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/fernald-vocab-development-101513.html

[MBM]

The issue of trauma affecting academic ability is believable.  Unfortunately there isn't a good solution for these kids, that I've heard proposed.  On the other hand, kids on the whole are remarkably resilient.

 

Actually, there are some good solutions. If you want to learn more, Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed is a good start.

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So looking at, and communicating with, your baby is learned behavior and not instinctive? (I don't mean that snarky at all; it's a serious question.) Seeing animals interact with their young, I would have thought that this would be basic instinct.

Or is it that it would be basic instinct, but is overridden by poor cultural/experiential programming?

 

It seemed to me at the time that very, very little was needed to inspire the parent to learn more and do more for her children, so it probably is mostly instinct that simply needs triggered somehow. Just one person modeling attentive parenting (or actively teaching it in a setting that inspires trust) is enough to start with, when the parent is well-intentioned but ignorant.

 

I would think parenting instinct could be overridden by life experience. Having experienced serious childhood neglect oneself, or having left home while still a child, or witnessing child neglect and abuse modeled by someone they otherwise admired during a formative stage -- these are the circumstances that come to mind that could short-circuit natural responses to an innocent and beautiful infant, especially in a very, very young mother.

 

The mothers who needed the most help from our office were not easily categorized demographically -- they were from varied circumstances but always the ones who commented that their mothers hadn't been "good" mothers or that they'd never seen anybody take care of a baby. I used to think the experienced mothers who sat next to them in the waiting room probably did as much good as anything, just showing how they handled their children.

[idnib]

.

[MBM]

It seemed to me at the time that very, very little was needed to inspire the parent to learn more and do more for her children, so it probably is mostly instinct that simply needs triggered somehow. Just one person modeling attentive parenting (or actively teaching it in a setting that inspires trust) is enough to start with, when the parent is well-intentioned but ignorant.

 

I would think parenting instinct could be overridden by life experience. Having experienced serious childhood neglect oneself, or having left home while still a child, or witnessing child neglect and abuse modeled by someone they otherwise admired during a formative stage -- these are the circumstances that come to mind that could short-circuit natural responses to an innocent and beautiful infant, especially in a very, very young mother.

 

The mothers who needed the most help from our office were not easily categorized demographically -- they were from varied circumstances but always the ones who commented that their mothers hadn't been "good" mothers or that they'd never seen anybody take care of a baby. I used to think the experienced mothers who sat next to them in the waiting room probably did as much good as anything, just showing how they handled their children.

 

Exactly! That is what Alicia Lieberman says. Here is a quote from Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed discussing Lieberman's work on secure attachment and parenting history:

 

In addition, a mother's own attachment history can make her parenting challenge even greater: research from the Minnesota study and elsewhere shows that if a new mother experienced insecure attachment with her parents as a child (no matter what her class background), then it will be exponentially more difficult for her to provide a secure, nurturing environment for her own children.

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Exactly! That is what Alicia Lieberman says. Here is a quote from Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed discussing Lieberman's work on secure attachment and parenting history:

 

That is interesting! I will look for this book at my library.

 

I wonder if this is one reason the LLL model has been so successful -- a roomful of moms with babies and toddlers all around, so you have your peers but you also have more experienced mentors -- it takes the magnifying glass off your own past and your own pain. You're just in a mob of moms and kids, all hearing the same good advice while observing the attachment-building practices of breastfeeding, eye contact, smiling, cuddling, gentle discipline for toddlers, etc.

[maize]

Many adults have grown up with minimal exposure to interactions between parents and babies/young children. We don't remember much from our own early years, and unless we have siblings young enough that we remember their early years there just isn't a lot of exposure for most kids.  Children spend their days in school and even outside of school interact mostly with similar age peers. Young single adults interact mostly with other adults.

[Lolly]

There is more than one type of HeadStart, I'm more referring to the home based program where the teacher comes to the child's home. Dd1 was in HeadStart for 2 years and I was on the parent Policy Coucil board for the second year. I know that the classroom setting isn't best for all kids but it was for dd1 when she recieved speech services. I'm speaking as a parent who has had her child in HeadStart and has her child benefit from the program

 

I haven't been anywhere near HeadStart in years. I don't think it used to have a homebased option. Honestly, I think that would work much better. Teaching the parent to parent. I know for certain speech services were a completely different agency/program. The children I have worked with all were in a daycare type of Head Start. The only benefit I could see to it was that it gave free daycare and sometimes got kids out of a bad situation at home for a while during the day. It also was helpful for many of the kids to have exposure to English at a younger age. Educationally for English speaking children, there was no notable benefit. I wonder if the homebound services were a result of the study results that found no benefit. It seems like a much better choice to me. Teach the parents to help their children.

[Arcadia]

What measures even could a state take that get people to talk to their children?

A nearby city had a free program where parents are given free ESL classes in the evening with free childcare onsite. After the ESL lessons was parenting lessons on the same evening where the participants have their kids in room with them. One of the biggest corporate sponsor in that city is Google.

[MomtoCandJ]

I haven't been anywhere near HeadStart in years. I don't think it used to have a homebased option. Honestly, I think that would work much better. Teaching the parent to parent. I know for certain speech services were a completely different agency/program. The children I have worked with all were in a daycare type of Head Start. The only benefit I could see to it was that it gave free daycare and sometimes got kids out of a bad situation at home for a while during the day. It also was helpful for many of the kids to have exposure to English at a younger age. Educationally for English speaking children, there was no notable benefit. I wonder if the homebound services were a result of the study results that found no benefit. It seems like a much better choice to me. Teach the parents to help their children.

Dd1's program was only half day, focused mainly on play learning and getting along with others. The population of dd1's class was either only children (dd1 fell into this category), oldest or youngest child. We had monthly meetings for "parent education" and weekly papers sent home

[Mrs Mungo]

Maybe education, billboards, etc telling parents how important it is? They do that around here re: reading to your kids. 

 

It's difficult to set aside that it shouldn't even have to come to this. 

 

 

Actually, Motheread is a program that does something similar to this. It is often offered at libraries. Funding programs like that and funding outreach programs to reach the parents who need it (as opposed to parents who are already regularly at the library, which is how I encountered it) could help? As opposed to attempting regulation?

http://www.motheread.org

[Murphy101]

Another thing is why is our future so heavily dependent on our parent's ability and/or willingness to pay for our education? Yes, I know this still doesn't make it impossible if our parents can't help or don't want to, but it's not easy at all. It is probably still possible to have quality standards AND affordability. If money is no longer an obstacle than the obstacle will be space. If space is an obstacle then entrance and advancement requirements should be more stringent. They have free school in Germany, but this does not mean just anyone can go because not everyone can pass the exams. If students don't have the ability or don't put in the work they don't remain there and/or they do not graduate. If people are upset with removing the financial burden to me that says they think only parents with a lot of money deserve to see their kids go to college.

The problem is that it is not likely in many people's opinion that it will go in that direction in the states.

 

If colleges here were set up anything at all like in Germany, maybe we would reasonably expect the same results. But they aren't, so some tend to not think the results will be the same. Some like me.

[Murphy101]

What measures even could a state take that get people to talk to their children?

It takes someone they know telling them.

 

I love my BFF since elementary.

 

But.

 

Her second and my fourth son are two weeks apart. We were having a discussion and my then 3ish year old son came up to me and asked for a drink and I told him his cup was the blue one. BFF looked at me worried and said, "I really need to get Tommy (name changed. ;) ) into preschool so he can learn his colors and counting and stuff..."

 

Me sputtering blurted in shock: What the hell? Kids have to be taught colors and to count? Don't you ever TALK to the boy?!

 

*blush of embarrassment when I heard myself for hurting feelings*

 

BFF: What? Of course I talk to him! What do you mean by that?!

 

Me: Is he okay? I mean I love him and he is a great little man and all that, but seriously, how often does a kid have to be told things like, "Let's get dressed! How about this blue shirt with some brown pants! You cup is the green one. We need 4 plates for the table. You can have 2 cookies. And so on? Colors, big/small sizes, basic shapes like round and triangle, numbers at least to 5 or 10, these are things they hear every single day without schooling bc it's just conversation. I'd be really worried if he isn't picking up on that.

 

Her: Really? You talk like that to him all the time?

 

Me: Like what?

 

Her: hmmmm. No, now that you put it that way, I guess I don't talk to him.

 

I love her, but yes, some people do not know what it means to actually talk with their kids. Not purposeful lesson talk. But actual idle conversation chatter about real life environment and what is going on around them. And little kids learn the most from that kind of talk imo.

 

And yes, thankfully, we are good enough friends that my rude blurt didn't toss it. She's really a great gal and her kids aren't abused or anything. She is just a very quiet person by nature. Actually her whole house is. I used to think it was just compared to me/mine, but it's not. Her mom's house when were growing up was always very quiet and very little chitchat too.

[Murphy101]

Pfft. I can't even get free speech therapy for my kids in this state. $25-50 a session fir a college kid to come do it towards their degree program is still going to add up quick.

 

In theory I could use the public schools, but they are full/busy yeahhh someday maybe they will approve us have an opening possibly if I haggle and b,tch and moan daily at them for a year or so.

 

So given my state can't manage such basic things, I'm pretty dadblum dubious about "free" community college.

[The Girls' Mom]

This almost seems off topic now, but I'll post it anyway..

 

We attended our first mandatory meeting for TN promise tonight. I was rather pleased to find out that it will also pay for the technical and Allied health programs at select Technical schools across the state. These are 12 month technical programs for things like welding, mechanics, nursing care, etc. Work ready programs for kids that aren't interested in or inclined towards academic schools and just want skills that will land them jobs.

[redsquirrel]

Pfft. I can't even get free speech therapy for my kids in this state. $25-50 a session fir a college kid to come do it towards their degree program is still going to add up quick.

 

In theory I could use the public schools, but they are full/busy yeahhh someday maybe they will approve us have an opening possibly if I haggle and b,tch and moan daily at them for a year or so.

 

So given my state can't manage such basic things, I'm pretty dadblum dubious about "free" community college.

 

I am really sorry to hear that. My son got speech, OT and PT for years, first through EI and then through the school system.  In our state he is entitled to as much therapy as he would get if he were in the public school system, so at one point he was getting three speech, two OT and two PT sessions a week. He was declassified last week.

 

It is things like that that make me hopeful about subsidized community college in my state. But it is also frustrating to me that there is such a difference in access to services and good education in this country. Access to decent schools and things like speech therapy shouldn't be an accident of birth.

[Lolly]

This almost seems off topic now, but I'll post it anyway..

 

We attended our first mandatory meeting for TN promise tonight. I was rather pleased to find out that it will also pay for the technical and Allied health programs at select Technical schools across the state. These are 12 month technical programs for things like welding, mechanics, nursing care, etc. Work ready programs for kids that aren't interested in or inclined towards academic schools and just want skills that will land them jobs.

 

Was it a group meeting that just filled in details? I am really hoping so. Did parents tend to attend with the kids. I hadn't actually even thought about going, but can see where it could be REALLY beneficial if I did.

[The Girls' Mom]

Was it a group meeting that just filled in details? I am really hoping so. Did parents tend to attend with the kids. I hadn't actually even thought about going, but can see where it could be REALLY beneficial if I did.

Honestly, I thought it was pretty much a waste of time for US.  Everything they went over was on the website or in the packet they mailed out.  The most important thing was getting your name checked off that you attended the mandatory meeting.  You walked in, got your name checked off a list, and was assigned a table where your mentor would also sit.  Since we are homeschoolers, we weren't assigned a table and had no mentor to meet with.  The guy doing the presentation said he would speak to us after the meeting.  He basically said "have any questions?" and that was it.  

 

For the general public, it seemed like a needed meeting.  The PS students and parents had a LOT of questions for the speaker.  (Not a single HSer did.  I think this is because we had to do so much of this on our own anyway)

 

So, no it isn't important that you go with your student, IMO.  The ONLY new info I got was about the technical schools above, and it is in the packet...I just didn't notice.  Oh, and they had representatives from local CCs and Tech schools there that you could talk with if you wanted to.  

[Lolly]

Honestly, I thought it was pretty much a waste of time for US.  Everything they went over was on the website or in the packet they mailed out.  The most important thing was getting your name checked off that you attended the mandatory meeting.  You walked in, got your name checked off a list, and was assigned a table where your mentor would also sit.  Since we are homeschoolers, we weren't assigned a table and had no mentor to meet with.  The guy doing the presentation said he would speak to us after the meeting.  He basically said "have any questions?" and that was it.  

 

For the general public, it seemed like a needed meeting.  The PS students and parents had a LOT of questions for the speaker.  (Not a single HSer did.  I think this is because we had to do so much of this on our own anyway)

 

So, no it isn't important that you go with your student, IMO.  The ONLY new info I got was about the technical schools above, and it is in the packet...I just didn't notice.  Oh, and they had representatives from local CCs and Tech schools there that you could talk with if you wanted to.  

 

Thanks! Ds has chosen to go the tech school route, so we know about that one already. I will probably go with him anyway because our homeschool situation is confusing for most people (technically private). I'm glad you mentioned going!

[MBM]

Our public school aso offers free tutoring before, during, and after.

 

The issue is low expectations.In Algebra, for ex, many units are omitted that should be included, and are only included in the middle school version of Algebra, as the schools try to get everyone to minimum competency. Minimum for all means average for none, and maximum for none. Students who failed to get a seat in 7th or 8th Agebra are not viewed as capable, and will not get the opportunity to build the firm foundation needed to continue, unless they afterschool with a different provider and are provided the missing material.

I want to see the traditional path restored, where a bright student could take Algebra at college prep depth and pace in 9th and be ready to be successful in calc. Many students did this in my day and were abe to be solid colege students graduating with nonfluff degrees in 4 years. It is an injustice to this group of sudents today to make them stretch schooling out for 4 extra years. Ms. Glampers needs to go.

 

??? I was responding to G5052 who was making a point about tutoring and how it's too expensive for some.

 

I agree that in many high schools, but not all, expectations are too low.

 

[kiana]

The funny thing is that our expectations are far too high in early elementary and far too low in middle/high.

[regentrude]

The funny thing is that our expectations are far too high in early elementary and far too low in middle/high.

 

This.

Where elsewhere in the world, they start gently in elementary and then ramp up expectations if 5th grade, here we push the elementary kids very hard and then put the middle schoolers in a holding pattern for three years where they learn barely anything, until some level of actual education resumes in high school.

Mindbogglingly stupid. And I will never understand why educators deem American students "not developmentally ready" for the material same age kids elsewhere in the world are expected to be able to learn.

 

[MBM]

My point is that having tutoring available isnt going to make up for the lack of opportunity to learn the necessary material. These kids cant even take a book home and learn from it, as students could do in my day as there is no text. This is how poverty continues and how the middle class is being brought back down. And how the competition wins...by starving the opponents. Look at the new plan....they will now take sixteen years to master what used to be done in 11 years of K12. Meanwhile, Richie Rich will be done with 2 years of college math by the time he graduates his private high school. And the lifetime earnings difference will be...?

---

Expectations are not high in elementary here. The expectation is that all but students who are afterschooled will go into remedial in middle school, then follow common core. High expectations, enrichment and differentiation were eliminated when nclb arrived. They have not returned....and this is not a poverty area.

 

I think you live in a very bad district. Crazy.

 

[MBM]

This.

Where elsewhere in the world, they start gently in elementary and then ramp up expectations if 5th grade, here we push the elementary kids very hard and then put the middle schoolers in a holding pattern for three years where they learn barely anything, until some level of actual education resumes in high school.

Mindbogglingly stupid. And I will never understand why educators deem American students "not developmentally ready" for the material same age kids elsewhere in the world are expected to be able to learn.

 

Other schools in the world also track beginning around 5th. Here in the US many schools either don't have the resources or know-how to do that or it's considered unjust and elitist. Our district tracks anyway to some degree and with flexibility. It is good for the students in lower tracks who might need more one-on-one help as well as students in the upper tracks who can often work through material fairly easily but have resources available should they get stuck.

 

 

[kiana]

Other schools in the world also track beginning around 5th. Here in the US many schools either don't have the resources or know-how to do that or it's considered unjust and elitist.

 

Also considered problematic and potentially racist under disparate impact.

 

Now, there were and are some very real issues with tracking. I remember talking to someone who was automatically assigned to the vo-tech track based on her skin color even though she had the highest grades in her class in middle school. She had to raise heck at the school in order to get put in where she belonged.

 

I don't think, though, that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We should look at various measures ... but use all of them as inclusive measures rather than exclusive. In other words, you should not need high test scores AND a teacher recommendation AND blah blah blah in order to get into the accelerated track.

[SKL]

I think the amount we push elementary kids is average by international standards.  Some countries push harder younger, some allow a slower ramp-up, and some have gentler "schools" but everyone also attends cram school.

 

I do wonder why we seem to go into a holding pattern during middle school nowadays.  I'd rather fix this problem directly than fund CC as a means to remediate it.