MomtoCandJ Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Well most families I know would allow their children to remain at home as long as they are in school and/or working. I did say most as there are exceptions to everything :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 However, you will be taking money away from productive households (taxpayers) to pay for the program. That money would have been spent in the economy in some way, or saved for retirement, or any number of productive functions. That is an unseen loss. Considering we remove significantly more to fund a military industrial complex (not to mention a prison industrial complex) I can't see why a wailing and gnashing of teeth is justified over increasing educational opportunities for our young people. Of course, we could help pay for this by cutting back the government pork fed to Haliburton and friends...probably have money left over for some new bridges and roads also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 However, you will be taking money away from productive households (taxpayers) to pay for the program. That money would have been spent in the economy in some way, or saved for retirement, or any number of productive functions. That is an unseen loss. I think you and I must have very different ideas of what "productive" means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I am also concerned that as we subsidize higher education more and more, all it does is get more and more expensive. It's already way too expensive. I'd rather look into ways to reduce and maybe redirect the money we already spend on higher education. This could make a real education (as opposed to remedial adult high school) accessible to more serious students. It would help if colleges could step away from their fanatical obsession with constantly improving their facilities and extracurricular programs and actually focus on academics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Considering we remove significantly more to fund a military industrial complex (not to mention a prison industrial complex) I can't see why a wailing and gnashing of teeth is justified over increasing educational opportunities for our young people. Of course, we could help pay for this by cutting back the government pork fed to Haliburton and friends...probably have money left over for some new bridges and roads also. In this case I would like to propose funding "free" CC by eliminating the Department of Education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It would help if colleges could step away from their fanatical obsession with constantly improving their facilities and extracurricular programs and actually focus on academics. ah yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Will there be a Common Core at CC? :p I think so. There has already been discussion of implementing a college rating system that would impact how much federal aid a particular college could get. I believe that's how No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top got started, although my memory is fuzzy on that. Those programs, in turn, have led to Common Core State Standards, which is also tied to funding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 In this case I would like to propose funding "free" CC by eliminating the Department of Education. Yeah I think we could eliminate at least some of the bureaucracy for sure. There is the local board of education, the state board of education, and the national board of education. Why do we need so many boards of education? And don't forget within each school there is a stack of administrators so essentially their tiny "board". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollyDay Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I worked my way through college too. But, the cost of my four year university has increased MUCH more than the minimum wage. It would be much more difficult now than it was then. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Statistics on graduation rates of full time students, successful transfer rates of full time students and the budgetary reports are available for people (like some of my auditor neighbors) who scrutinise reports for their entertainment. Like for my local "average" CC, less than half full timers graduate. Not a good stat regardless of where funding comes from. Add on to that, if CC is free, are parents going to give room and board to their kids for two more years after high school instead if "kicking them out" at 18? Rentals here are crazy high. It doesn't mean anything that the full-timers don't "graduate." My dd is taking classes that will transfer to her chosen four year school and four year degree instead of classes that would get her an associate's. She won't "graduate" from community college. She will transfer to a four year school and graduate from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelbe5 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I have not read all the comments. I think it is a great idea . . . in theory . . . but how will it be funded? Offering all these "free" benefits concerns me as I don't think it is sustainable, especially with the unemployment in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't mean anything that the full-timers don't "graduate." My dd is taking classes that will transfer to her chosen four year school and four year degree instead of classes that would get her an associate's. I wasn't clear. The "graduate rate" includes students that transfer successfully to the four year schools. The CC ask if someone is applying to get an AA, get a transfer, or for self enrichment. Same fees for residents regardless of reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I like that idea too. As it is now it seems what is valued is how much money someone can manage to fork over to pay for their piece of paper. If it really was only about whether or not someone put in the time to study then they'd allow people to test their way through the piece of paper and that could save them money. But that would mean someone else isn't getting a chunk of the money. exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 There are still seven states where one can be admitted to the bar without obtaining a JD. Are there are educational requirements? Or is it just a matter of passing a test? Very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I have not read all the comments. I think it is a great idea . . . in theory . . . but how will it be funded? Offering all these "free" benefits concerns me as I don't think it is sustainable, especially with the unemployment in this country. Unemployment is at it's lowest rate in years........ just over 5%, which means more people paying into the tax system than just a few years ago. Job growth is on the upswing, so that rate is likely to go down even more in the next year or two. Part of the plan, from what I can see so far, is that states will pay a portion of the cost, making it a partnership. That is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Are there are educational requirements? Or is it just a matter of passing a test? Very cool. You do it the old fashioned way, by apprenticing to a more experience lawyer who agrees to take on the task. You still have to pass the bar exam though. Sort of like homeschooling for law school, lol My lawyer friends tell me that law school is just three years of prepping for the bar. I am sure it is much more than that, lol. But I understand that at times it felt that way. Their real 'lawyer training' came on the job. As students they did summer internships in law offices and that is where they learned the day to day world of being a lawyer, learned about specialties, etc. But I am sure that there are lots of different experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You do it the old fashioned way, by apprenticing to a more experience lawyer who agrees to take on the task. You still have to pass the bar exam though. Sort of like homeschooling for law school, lol My lawyer friends tell me that law school is just three years of prepping for the bar. I am sure it is much more than that, lol. But I understand that at times it felt that way. Their real 'lawyer training' came on the job. As students they did summer internships in law offices and that is where they learned the day to day world of being a lawyer, learned about specialties, etc. But I am sure that there are lots of different experiences. I think it is soooooo cool that some people can still become a lawyer without being forced to attend an expensive law school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 In this case I would like to propose funding "free" CC by eliminating the Department of Education. Yeah, the DOE is the right's boogie man. Subsidies for Exxon and company? Not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommytobees Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I see it as a hand up, not a handout. Many of these students entered prek 2 or more years behind their peers. They need the additional time in school to get to the level that they have marketable skills and can communicate effectively. I dont think cc is the answer, bc of the transportation issues. Be a lot cheaper at the local high school to have 13th and 14th grades plus a sitter. I agree. Specifically, this is a hand UP for me. Right now the only job I can find *might* pay me about $8 an hour. I've been out of work for the past 15 years. After I finish my degree, I'll be able to make $20+ an hour. The government is going to be putting around $11,000 into my education. It might take me, as a 40-something year old woman, a few years to pay that amount back in taxes, but I'll pay it. Versus what taxes am I really going to pay making $8 an hour? Now, let's look at my 16-year-old son.... in today's money he'll get about $22,000 in Pell plus whatever other grants he can qualify for. Pretend he does CC for 2 years and ASU for 2 years... he'll end up with $22,000 in Pell and $15,000 in loans (give or take) for a BS. If he continues with his current goals, he'll leave school with a BS and be able to make around $50,000 for a few years until he goes and gets a Master's. After the Master's, he'll make around $90,000. For the government's expenditure of $22,000, they will make much, much more on him in the taxes he will pay. He gets help getting the degree and they make more money, just like he does. Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Only read the first few pages of responses. My ds will be in the first group of TN kids taking advantage of TN Promise. He has signed up, I have to file FAFSA (which we normally don't do), he has to have meetings with an assigned mentor, and there are required community service hours every semester. There are no minimum required scores to enter. You can take remedial classes to start. A 2.0 gap must be maintained. There is a two years limit. I'm pretty sure it is only for full time students, but not certain. It can be used at TN community colleges, as well as schools of applied technology (trade school). It is funded by state lottery. I don't really have feelings one way or the other about the program. CC in Tn is very reasonable. I know many kids who are working their way through as full time students without the program or any parental support. I do not think the federal government should be involved in educational policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Heh. http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-proposes-free-community-college-for-those-wi,37727/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TianXiaXueXiao Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I haven't read all the replies, so I hope I am not repeating a point someone else has made already. I went to community college in the early 90s in California. In that state community college is actually tuition-free for residents based on the California Master Plan for Higher Education. In California, non-residents and international students do pay tuition. I paid something like $9 per unit for fees that were itemized as overhead costs and healthcare, but were not technically *tuition*. I wonder how this proposal will be enacted in states that do not legally charge tuition to residents in junior college. How will they justify what expenses they pay when state residents are not actually charged tuition? This has the potential to be very messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Personally I think the view of college being a privilege and not a right is one way of saying only certain people deserve to go to college and make a decent living. If you come from a poor family somehow it is your fault and therefore you deserve to live poor your entire life. It is easy to tell who has had advantages financially their entire lives and have no clue what it is like to not be able to afford anything... sometimes not even needs like food and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yes. My job has nothing to do with what I studied and my husband didn't go to college and makes well above minimum wage with excellent benefits. You must live in a different world than some of us do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm sorry, but I have a difficult time comprehending how some people on here don't want to see certain people educated. I'm guessing (just my opinion) that some think they are better than others because they have money (most likely always have had) so they think the poor should be kept poor so they can feel superior to them. I think it is sad that anyone would have this view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The investments the government made to educate me have been paid back in spades. Access to higher education is crucial for us to maintain any level of class mobility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm sorry, but I have a difficult time comprehending how some people on here don't want to see certain people educated. I'm guessing (just my opinion) that some think they are better than others because they have money (most likely always have had) so they think the poor should be kept poor so they can feel superior to them. I think it is sad that anyone would have this view. Is this a joke? Do you really think people here don't want to see certain people educated so they can feel superior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Heh. http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-proposes-free-community-college-for-those-wi,37727/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default LMAO. That's hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luanne Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Is this a joke? Do you really think people here don't want to see certain people educated so they can feel superior? This is not a joke. I can't see any other reason why someone would be offended at another person getting help to get an education so they can't better themselves. If you have an idea as to why this would be just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Is this a joke? Do you really think people here don't want to see certain people educated so they can feel superior? It's also a pretty well-known political and business strategy. Check the resume of those advocating against education. Chances are they are highly educated and stand to profit from mass ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm sorry, but I have a difficult time comprehending how some people on here don't want to see certain people educated. I'm guessing (just my opinion) that some think they are better than others because they have money (most likely always have had) so they think the poor should be kept poor so they can feel superior to them. I think it is sad that anyone would have this view. Ignoring the ad hominem, perhaps it would help if you stopped equating the idea that just because someone doesn't think the federal government should fund x means that someone thinks people shouldn't have x. Even further, maybe they think there is a more cost effective, efficient way for more people to have x if the federal government is not involved. Perhaps their motives are not as awful as you think them to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's also a pretty well-known political and business strategy. Check the resume of those advocating against education. Chances are they are highly educated and stand to profit from mass ignorance. Agreed. While I am not sure how broadly it applies, it is not an outlandish thought. It also doesn't have to be about superiority. It can be simply the goal of maintaining an edge in the market place for certain groups or part of the "race to the bottom" mentality to depress wage rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This is not a joke. I can't see any other reason why someone would be offended at another person getting help to get an education so they can't better themselves. If you have an idea as to why this would be just let me know. Would you say that anyone who is against any one particular plan for "free" college is against another person getting an education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vida Winter Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This is not a joke. I can't see any other reason why someone would be offended at another person getting help to get an education so they can't better themselves. If you have an idea as to why this would be just let me know. First off, I can't imagine anyone not wanting someone else to get an education.The resistance to another government solution is not to put people down. The resistance comes from the absolute certainty that when the government gets involved in a new thing like this, waste/fraud/abuse will skyrocket as will costs of CC. Meddling with student loans has been a major cause of runaway college costs. It will never stop. Let's have a free program that allows everyone to go out to a nice restaurant each week. But don't stop there. We're busy people. How about a free housekeeper once a week? A cook? Lawn service? These are of course, ridiculous examples but where do you draw the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Now I see why we can't have political threads here. Good grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So, to sum up: The only possible motives people could have for questioning whether this is a great idea are that they fear change, they just can't admit other countries might be doing something better, or they're elitists who want to lord their superiority over the unwashed masses. Am I missing any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Heh. http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-proposes-free-community-college-for-those-wi,37727/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default Borowitz's New Yorker piece is great too. Definitely political so I won't link. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It's also a pretty well-known political and business strategy. Check the resume of those advocating against education. Chances are they are highly educated and stand to profit from mass ignorance. Umm ... nobody stands to profit from that kind of mass ignorance. And, CC is not the way to prevent that kind of mass ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So, to sum up: The only possible motives people could have for questioning whether this is a great idea are that they fear change, they just can't admit other countries might be doing something better, or they're elitists who want to lord their superiority over the unwashed masses. Am I missing any? If that is your summary you must have skipped a lot of posts in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So, to sum up: The only possible motives people could have for questioning whether this is a great idea are that they fear change, they just can't admit other countries might be doing something better, or they're elitists who want to lord their superiority over the unwashed masses. Am I missing any?Too much government control? I personally think more college aid isnt a bad thing, I will take all the financial aid I can get outside of loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So, to sum up: The only possible motives people could have for questioning whether this is a great idea are that they fear change, they just can't admit other countries might be doing something better, or they're elitists who want to lord their superiority over the unwashed masses. Am I missing any? We love the military industrial complex. And hate poor people. And are offended by the idea of them getting an education. I think that might cover it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Well, *I* love the military industrial complex. That *is* what is funding my kids' college. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemota Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I haven't read all the replies, so I hope I am not repeating a point someone else has made already. I went to community college in the early 90s in California. In that state community college is actually tuition-free for residents based on the California Master Plan for Higher Education. In California, non-residents and international students do pay tuition. I paid something like $9 per unit for fees that were itemized as overhead costs and healthcare, but were not technically *tuition*. I wonder how this proposal will be enacted in states that do not legally charge tuition to residents in junior college. How will they justify what expenses they pay when state residents are not actually charged tuition? This has the potential to be very messy. California residents are no longer "tuition-free" at community college. Our local CC in Northern CA is $46 per unit for residents. So for a semester it's between $552 - $690. And that does not include other student fees and or fees for parking/gas/books/labs. So they don't have to call it tuition, but it's not a $9 fee. It's a bargain compared to the CA state schools (also no longer as cheap as they were for residents 10 years ago), or any other private/out-of-state school. But it's not free, and hasn't been since I moved here 18 years ago (and attended as both an out-of-state and in-state resident). ETA: My point is that you can call it "fees" or you can call it "tuition"; either way, college is still not the bargain many of us were able to afford 10+ years ago. Even at a community college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm curious to see his plan for funding this. Yeah...who is paying for it? Just another tactic to crush the disappearing middle class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Considering we remove significantly more to fund a military industrial complex (not to mention a prison industrial complex) I can't see why a wailing and gnashing of teeth is justified over increasing educational opportunities for our young people. Of course, we could help pay for this by cutting back the government pork fed to Haliburton and friends...probably have money left over for some new bridges and roads also. You'd better sit down. You and I agree on something. ;0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Well, *I* love the military industrial complex. That *is* what is funding my kids' college. ;) Perhaps that is Obama's plan, to require military service for anyone who wants to go to college for "free"? The G.I. Bill is a good deal for many people! Not to mention the additional job skills from being in the military. Now I'm beginning to see the light. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah...who is paying for it? Just another tactic to crush the disappearing middle class? Lower cost access to higher education is exactly what we need to help the middle class breathe a little easier and sleep at night without panicking about how they will pay for Juniors' education next term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Perhaps that is Obama's plan, to require military service for anyone who wants to go to college for "free"? The G.I. Bill is a good deal for many people! Not to mention the additional job skills from being in the military. Now I'm beginning to see the light. :) I strongly disagree with everyone serving in the military. Crappy soldiers who don't want to be there take up a lot of my dh's time. It is a good deal for people who really want to be there. It's going to be a really bad deal if you wind up getting thrown out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I strongly disagree with everyone serving in the military. Crappy soldiers who don't want to be there take up a lot of my dh's time. It is a good deal for people who really want to be there. It's going to be a really bad deal if you wind up getting thrown out.And there is those of us who can't serve do to multiple issues... Like I'm pigeon toed, allergic to mushrooms and won't make it through boot camp without injury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Lower cost access to higher education is exactly what we need to help the middle class breathe a little easier and sleep at night without panicking about how they will pay for Juniors' education next term. And so? Who will be paying for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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