Why do so many conservative Christians feel they have to dictate how the rest of us live?

[Tanaqui]

Seriously...do you think it is necessary because no one knows which bakers are known to do Christian (or whichever religion) weddings?  I think that would be pretty easy to determine, as some of them even have names that are Biblical references.

 

Not all Christians have the same beliefs regarding gays and same sex marriage. As loudly and frequently as you proclaim there is just no scriptural basis for prejudice against blacks or interracial couples (despite the fact that many racist bigots have found justification for their beliefs in the same Bible you read), many other Christians loudly state that there is no scriptural basis for discrimination against gays in any respect - and they find your interpretation of that same Bible to be invalid.

 

[Ravin]

The issue of selling a WEDDING cake (not "cakes") to someone to celebrate what cannot be a "wedding" in your faith is indeed about religious belief.

But it's a good being sold. The baker does not participate in the event. The only thing relevant to the business transaction is who he is selling to. A wedding cake is a good for sale by a business covered by public accommodation laws.

[TranquilMind]

Wait, did nobody click the link on pie? Sheesh. I'm not googling these things for my health.

Like my mom used to say about sex on tv or movies, "Why would I want to watch it?  I'd rather do it!" 

 

I'm sitting here eating some fabulous homemade pumpkin pie with homemade whipped cream.  My husband likes to bake.  I'm a doer, not just a talker.  ;) 

[elegantlion]

I was only responding to what you said. How you come up with this has me a bit baffled.

 

 

Jesus said to follow laws. You brought up worshiping Caesar, I get it, that's a big one  - heck I might still be a Christian, let me check, for now, yes - so I get thou shalt not have any gods beside me. But baking a cake is violation of God's law, you might think so, obviously, but it didn't really make the top ten list. hence, no one is asking you to worship a gay person. 

 

Again if providing service to sinners is such an abomination unto God, then I think I'd be making pretty darn sure I wasn't serving any sinners. Wait, that would preclude most people, if not all. Because I'm pretty sure there something in scripture about all falling short and it is by his grace and mercy we are saved. But if I think I know better than God, that I believe somehow he elevates the sin of homosexuality above gossip or gluttony, then I am trying de-emphasize my own sin, and that action is hypocritical in my opinion. 

 

I

[TranquilMind]

But it's a good being sold. The baker does not participate in the event. The only thing relevant to the business transaction is who he is selling to. A wedding cake is a good for sale by a business covered by public accommodation laws.

That isn't true.  His goods are offered at the reception.  If he doesn't wish to be associated with a function, he should not be forced to be. 

 

If you are a cake maker and someone shows up stating that he wants a cake for his (insert objectionable religious practice here), should YOU be forced to supply it? What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)? 

[Pam in CT]

Wait, did nobody click the link on pie? Sheesh. I'm not googling these things for my health.

 

:lol:

 

I'm really sorry I didn't click the first time.  Thanks for the second prompt.

[Tanaqui]

That isn't true.  His goods are offered at the reception.  If he doesn't wish to be associated with a function, he should not be forced to be. 

 

If you are a cake maker and someone shows up stating that he wants a cake for his (insert objectionable religious practice here), should YOU be forced to supply it? What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)? 

 

You have to be really looking hard to associate a vendor with something they sold to. Seriously, I don't assume Katz bakery is a Christian store just because some churches like to sell their cheesecake at their bake sales.

 

That argument is specious at best.

[TranquilMind]

You have to be really looking hard to associate a vendor with something they sold to. Seriously, I don't assume Katz bakery is a Christian store just because some churches like to sell their cheesecake at their bake sales.

That argument is specious at best.

You are twisting my words.  Sure, people go out and purchase random products at stores every day and take them to church or work. That isn't at all like being the provider of services in an event, thereby associating you with the event, if someone wishes to point it out. 

[Tanaqui]

:lol:

 

I'm really sorry I didn't click the first time.  Thanks for the second prompt.

 

And now you know. Always click my links, they're chosen with love and care. This one is even tangentially related to the discussion.

 

[Tanaqui]

Sure, people go out and purchase random products at stores every day and take them to church or work. That isn't at all like being the provider of services in an event, thereby associating you with the event, if someone wishes to point it out.

 

That is entirely like it. It is exactly like it. The two things are exactly the same, because nobody really thinks, as they eat a wedding cake, that by preparing the cake the baker is implicitly agreeing that these two people should be married.

 

What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)?

 

Then I'll post on my Facebook that "Hey, look, my cakes are soo good that even Westboro Baptist enjoys them! And they hate everything! I'm also open to supplying cakes to the good people at the latest counter-protest!"

 

 

[elegantlion]

That isn't true.  His goods are offered at the reception.  If he doesn't wish to be associated with a function, he should not be forced to be. 

 

If you are a cake maker and someone shows up stating that he wants a cake for his (insert objectionable religious practice here), should YOU be forced to supply it? What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)? 

 

Here's why: because God calls believers to be the salt and light. How many religious people put their kids in public school to do just that, to be a good witness to christianity. Not saying that's right or wrong, but it's a belief. 

 

God asks people to be humble too. You don't like gay weddings, bake the cake, pray over the cake, pray before each meeting you have with the couple that they will come to know Christ (if they don't already). People are not attracted to Christ or christianity by hateful, divisionist rhetoric. 

 

Pray they keep coming to your bakery so that they will continue to see your religion in a good light. Pray that they will see christianity with new eyes even if they never convert. 

 

Forget the love the sinner, hate the sin rhetoric, just love the people where they are, that is how Christ took people where they were. 

 

If you have a problem with others seeing you served a same-sex couple, then that's their problem. Evangelicals believe you are to go into all the world to preach (use words if necessary). Sometimes all the world is your own backyard or the person that walks through your business door and wants a wedding cake. 

[creekland]

Ok, so I didn't leave... yet... but my mind has come up with a purely speculative question.

 

Would people be complaining if a baker refused to provide a cake (of any sort) to a KKK event?

 

We have those around here occasionally (sadly).  I don't know that they ever ask for catering of any sort.  But still...

 

Personally I wouldn't have any problem providing a wedding cake to a gay couple (quite honestly they wouldn't want any wedding cake I attempted to bake, but that's a different issue).  I would, however, not care to support a KKK event.  I wonder how compatible that is in my thoughts.

 

And that's why this is purely speculative.

[Amira]

When I go to an event I don't assume that the people who provided the food are somehow sponsoring the event or supporting the organization. They're just selling their food to the organizers like Costco probably sold something to them. If I am made aware of who did the food, it seems to me it's more about advertising for the baker/caterer/whatever than some statement about their political or religious beliefs.

[Tanaqui]

Would people be complaining if a baker refused to provide a cake (of any sort) to a KKK event?

 

The KKK is not a religious group, and it's really pushing things to say that they count as an ethnicity. So I don't think they constitute a protected class. However, I'm not going to assume that a baker providing cakes for the latest KKK Kaffeeklatch is themselves a white supremacist.

 

[Ravin]

Wait, did nobody click the link on pie? Sheesh. I'm not googling these things for my health.

I knew Skippy in college, before he joined the Army. Based on that knowledge, I believe this to be a true story.

[elegantlion]

When I go to an event, I don't assume that the people who provided the food are somehow sponsoring the event or supporting the organization. They're just selling their food to the organizers like Costco probably sold something to them. If I am made aware of who did the food, it seems to me it's more about advertising for the baker/caterer/whatever than some statement about their political or religious beliefs.

 

:iagree: If that is the case, then Duncan Hines brownie mix was a long-term supporter of my small group bible study I attended years ago. I wonder if they know? 

[Joanne]

Some people believe that humans are capable of not acting on feelings. It is possible to have feelings of attraction for someone and not act on those feelings. So in that case a gay person wouldn't be changing their feelings but they could change their behavior. And that would not have to go so far as to marry opposite sex to try to force what doesn't feel good to them....but rather to refrain from behaviors that they believe would be displeasing to God. Some people believe that God did not create people with these feelings, but rather that the human race is in a state of imperfection at the moment.

 

But generally those would be religious people and if one is not religious the above paragraph would read like hog wash. And thus we are back to having polar opposite beliefs about a very sensitive subject.

 

 

Orientation is not about who you have sex with.

 

Is your heterosexualism based on and limited to that?

 

You can have sex or participate in sexual activity in ways that are not part of your orientation.

[Joanne]

The Jesus I worshipped before I gave up would:

 

1. Bake the cake.
2. Serve the cake.
3. Celebrate at the wedding.
4. Support social structures, such as intentional adult unions with long term committements.
5. Encourage the community to support the wedding, as He would ALL weddings because research shows unions that have community and family support have better outcomes. And better marriage outcomes are associated with better life - work, stability, children, education.

[Corraleno]

At any rate, the gay activists sure aren't tolerant.  The Kleins of Oregon were threatened, their suppliers were threatened, and their kids got death threats.  Talk about tolerant. 

 

"THE gay activists"? The entire population of gay activists in America are intolerant and make death threats?  The handful of people who may have threatened this couple represent "the gay activists" in America to exactly the same extent that Westboro Baptist represents "the Christians" in America (i.e., not at all). 

[TranquilMind]

"THE gay activists"? The entire population of gay activists in America are intolerant and make death threats?  The handful of people who may have threatened this couple represent "the gay activists" in America to exactly the same extent that Westboro Baptist represents "the Christians" in America (i.e., not at all). 

Apparently, the ones in Oregon do. 

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/bakers-not-making-lesbians-wedding-cake-its-never-been-about-sexual

 

Westboro represents no one but itself alone.  They have entirely unorthodox and bizarre beliefs, not "Christian" beliefs.  . 

[Scarlett]

Orientation is not about who you have sex with.

 

Is your heterosexualism based on and limited to that?

 

You can have sex or participate in sexual activity in ways that are not part of your orientation.

Or not.

[TranquilMind]

 

The Jesus I worshipped before I gave up would:

 

1. Bake the cake.
2. Serve the cake.
3. Celebrate at the wedding.
4. Support social structures, such as intentional adult unions with long term committements.
5. Encourage the community to support the wedding, as He would ALL weddings because research shows unions that have community and family support have better outcomes. And better marriage outcomes are associated with better life - work, stability, children, education.

 

A wedding....yes.   Big cultural events, with lots of wine.   

 

Two guys or two women saying they are getting married, when marriage was not possible in that culture....no.  You have absolutely no evidence to support this, except your own modern-day belief that it SHOULD be equivalent to marriage. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Westboro represents no one but itself alone.  They have entirely unorthodox and bizarre beliefs, not "Christian" beliefs.  .

Which was the entirety of Corraleno's point. Extremists are not representative of groups as a whole.

[Cindy in FL.]

There's the problem. I wasn't talking about the cake. I was just agreeing with you about your understanding of the rendering unto Caesar thing. I wasn't even thinking about the cake (or pies for that matter) when I posted. I just plucked it out of context, I guess, and responded only to what you said in that particular post. Does that make sense?

 

Jesus said to follow laws. You brought up worshiping Caesar, I get it, that's a big one - heck I might still be a Christian, let me check, for now, yes - so I get thou shalt not have any gods beside me. But baking a cake is violation of God's law, you might think so, obviously, but it didn't really make the top ten list. hence, no one is asking you to worship a gay person.

 

Again if providing service to sinners is such an abomination unto God, then I think I'd be making pretty darn sure I wasn't serving any sinners. Wait, that would preclude most people, if not all. Because I'm pretty sure there something in scripture about all falling short and it is by his grace and mercy we are saved. But if I think I know better than God, that I believe somehow he elevates the sin of homosexuality above gossip or gluttony, then I am trying de-emphasize my own sin, and that action is hypocritical in my opinion.

 

I

[Cindy in FL.]

We don't know the same Jesus apparently. The one I know doesn't celebrate sin. He actually tells people to go and sin no more.

 

The Jesus I worshipped before I gave up would:

 

• Bake the cake.
• Serve the cake.
• Celebrate at the wedding.
• Support social structures, such as intentional adult unions with long term committements.
• Encourage the community to support the wedding, as He would ALL weddings because research shows unions that have community and family support have better outcomes. And better marriage outcomes are associated with better life - work, stability, children, education.

[Mrs Mungo]

Some methods of birth control work not by preventing the sperm from reaching the egg but by preventing implantation. IUD's, the progesterone-only minipill, etc. For political reasons the ACOG defines "pregnancy" not at the moment of conception but rather after successful implantation, so that they can claim that the IUD "prevents pregnancy". Totally Orwellian use of language.

There is no pregnancy from a medical standpoint unless there is implantation. This is something that is commonly considered a fact in the medical community, particularly the medical community that deals with women's health. That's why ACOG defines it that way. I think most people accept that definition.

[Ravin]

That isn't true. His goods are offered at the reception. If he doesn't wish to be associated with a function, he should not be forced to be.

 

If you are a cake maker and someone shows up stating that he wants a cake for his (insert objectionable religious practice here), should YOU be forced to supply it? What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)?

If I sell cakes to the public, then yes. My knowledge of the purpose of the cake after sale is relevant only to the extent that I need to know in order to meet the customer's specifications within the range of customization I offer. If I find a particular customized feature objectionable I simply won't offer it. For example, I'll sell a cake to a guy who plans to serve it at a KKK meeting, but I'm not going to draw a burning cross on it in frosting and fondant.

 

I pondered the "objectionable religious ceremony" and couldn't think of one I'd personally object to, though there are plenty I wouldn't participate in myself.

[SemiSweet]

Seriously...do you think it is necessary because no one knows which bakers are known to do Christian (or whichever religion) weddings? I think that would be pretty easy to determine, as some of them even have names that are Biblical references.

 

At any rate, the gay activists sure aren't tolerant. The Kleins of Oregon were threatened, their suppliers were threatened, and their kids got death threats. Talk about tolerant.

Well if we are going to go this route let's take about this:

 

http://www.towleroad.com/2014/12/kansas-pastor-threatened-with-beheading-for-performing-same-sex-marriages-video.html

 

And this:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/pastor-calls-for-killing-gays-to-end-aids/19929973/

 

There are jerks in all walks of life. But don't act like that kind of awfulness isn't coming from the religious side too.

[Guest]

That isn't true. His goods are offered at the reception. If he doesn't wish to be associated with a function, he should not be forced to be.

 

If you are a cake maker and someone shows up stating that he wants a cake for his (insert objectionable religious practice here), should YOU be forced to supply it? What if he posts photos all over Facebook, stating that he got his fabulous cake from Ravin Bakeries, and you really don't want to be associated with those who engage in (insert religious practice here)?

TM, you surely understand that a person providing a service to the public cannot pick and choose whom they want to serve because they don't like or agree with the customer's lifestyle. Would a daycare provider be allowed to refuse to care for a child whose mother is not married? Would a seamstress be allowed to refuse to make a costume for a dancer because the seamstress felt the design was immodest or that the dancer was earning money immorally?

 

My DH could not refuse to build a home for a homosexual couple, and he cannot refuse to rent a home to a couple with a heap of kids with different fathers. KWIM? One of our renters is a medium. We cannot refuse to rent to her because she's practicing divination. SWIM? In business, you can't refuse to serve law-abiding citizens because you don't agree with their lifestyle or they are doing things that are a sin in your faith.

[Corraleno]

Apparently, the ones in Oregon do. 

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/penny-starr/bakers-not-making-lesbians-wedding-cake-its-never-been-about-sexual

 

Westboro represents no one but itself alone.  They have entirely unorthodox and bizarre beliefs, not "Christian" beliefs.  . 

 

The article you linked says that the couple claim they received threats — they don't even say the threats came from more than one person. So, at least one unhinged person (who may not even live in Oregon for all you know) threatened this couple. How does that imply that all the gay activists, in the US or even just in Oregon, are intolerant and think its OK to make death threats?

 

And it's not as if no Christian has ever has made threats — or even carried out murder — against people believed to be violating scripture (e.g. providing abortions). It's still grossly inaccurate to say "The Christians are intolerant and think it's OK to make death threats, and even carry them out, in order to advance their agenda," because that is absolutely abhorrent to most Christians. Just as I'm sure that threatening children is abhorrent to most "gay activists" — many of whom are parents themselves.

[Ravin]

Ok, so I didn't leave... yet... but my mind has come up with a purely speculative question.

 

Would people be complaining if a baker refused to provide a cake (of any sort) to a KKK event?

 

We have those around here occasionally (sadly). I don't know that they ever ask for catering of any sort. But still...

 

Personally I wouldn't have any problem providing a wedding cake to a gay couple (quite honestly they wouldn't want any wedding cake I attempted to bake, but that's a different issue). I would, however, not care to support a KKK event. I wonder how compatible that is in my thoughts.

 

And that's why this is purely speculative.

I coincidentally already used them in an example. If my sale to them bothered my conscience, I'd donate the profits from the sale to the NAACP or something.

[Amira]

And now you know. Always click my links, they're chosen with love and care. This one is even tangentially related to the discussion.

 

 

I was all ready to like this, but then I read the last link (for me, since I read them backwards) that was all about a cake with orange extract. That might be even worse than cherry goo in cakes.

[idnib]

Going back to legal examples and offering an example of something outside abortion, wedding cakes, etc I offer my personal favorite:

 

 

 

Critics have pointed out that while the potential diversion of federal funds toward a Muslim school generated controversy among legislators, the state was already slotted under the new voucher program to provide millions of dollars to schools run by Christian churches.

 

(This is the story of the voucher program in Louisiana that was set for kids to be able to use vouchers to go to religious schools. Then a Muslim school applied for funds and they realized "religious" is not the same as "Christian" and all heck broke loose.)

[Χά�ων]

A Jewish caterer who receives an order that includes ham deli meat sandwiches can assign a non Jewish employee to handle the ham.

 

Why can't a Christian baker employee someone who is not against gay marriage to make the wedding cakes?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yes, this has happened and why Catholic Charities has had to stop running adoption agencies in many places: https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/ByIssue/Article/TabId/735/ArtMID/13636/ArticleID/14666/Tough-times-for-Catholic-adoption-agencies.aspx

 

And yet again, you lie by omission. I know for certain this has been explained to you before.

 

Catholic Charities was accepting government funding.  Government funding cannot be used to promote discrimination.  Catholic Charities is free to continue restricting who may adopt from them..if they give up the public funding.

[elegantlion]

There's the problem. I wasn't talking about the cake. I was just agreeing with you about your understanding of the rendering unto Caesar thing. I wasn't even thinking about the cake (or pies for that matter) when I posted. I just plucked it out of context, I guess, and responded only to what you said in that particular post. Does that make sense?

 

 

Yes, that makes sense. 

[Joanne]

A wedding....yes.   Big cultural events, with lots of wine.   

 

Two guys or two women saying they are getting married, when marriage was not possible in that culture....no.  You have absolutely no evidence to support this, except your own modern-day belief that it SHOULD be equivalent to marriage. 

 

 

Actually, I have all the evidence I need, and it it 100% irrefutable and valid.

 

That was the Jesus I worshipped - just as I posted.

[Mrs Mungo]

The issue of selling a WEDDING cake (not "cakes") to someone to celebrate what cannot be a "wedding" in your faith is indeed about religious belief.

 

Except, again, he was making dog wedding cakes. So, claiming that he's only willing to sell wedding cakes for weddings that are "real" weddings, according to his religion is factually incorrect. This lines up with the rest of your arguments being factually incorrect. Homosexuals were in a protected class when he refused to serve the couple. That means his actions were illegal. This is not just MY opinion; it is the opinion of the courts. There is no Biblical ban on selling cake of any kind to sinners. Gay marriage was NOT illegal in Colorado, it simply was not recognized (BIG difference). The rest of your arguments are pure opinion. Not all Christians agree that homosexuality in a modern sense is banned by The Bible. Not all Christians agree with your assessment that The Bible doesn't prohibit interracial marriage.

 

It is interesting that the Colorado case *proves* MY point that people have options other than shutting down. He didn't want to sell wedding cakes to homosexuals and now he doesn't sell wedding cakes at all. That's a solution that makes him happy, and it is legal.

 

So they're fine with taking taxpayer money? Perhaps there's a consequence for that....if they did not take any govt funds, would they then be allowed to deny homosexuals ?

 

Yes, they would. Religious organizations that don't take public funds can restrict who receives their moneys. Some churches only help their own members to try and control where the money is going. Private colleges can remain all male or all female, but they can't have an ROTC program or receiving public money in other forms.

 

Wait, did nobody click the link on pie? Sheesh. I'm not googling these things for my health.

Personally, I'm offended by the pie link. I assure you that Family Support (now Readiness) Groups were/are a lot more than social clubs. Just this week our group spent hours putting sheets on the beds of soldiers returning home from deployments, putting goodies in their rooms, putting together toiletry bags, etc so that they didn't return home to bare rooms at 10 pm at night. Maybe skippy thinks those things happen by magic?

[Tanaqui]

We don't know the same Jesus apparently. The one I know doesn't celebrate sin. He actually tells people to go and sin no more.

 

 

That's assuming that Jesus considered gay relationships a sin. As it happens, Christians have a diversity of opinions on this subject. Non-Christians do too, of course, but that's tangential to the point.

 

 

[The Girls' Mom]

As a Christian that also happens to be conservative, I feel the need to apologize on behalf of people that claim to share my faith, yet are not representing our Savior.

 

I've often said that it is a huge failing of the church, in general, that "we" expect non-Christians to behave like Christians. Why would you? Our family stays out of politics in general because we do not hold the belief that this is a Christian nation, nor that it was founded to be one. We do believe in separation of church and state, because I certainly do not want the government trying to legislate my faith. We realize that it is a two way street in that we should not try to legislate the nation into Christianity. Would I like to live in a Christian nation? Sure. But I also realize that it isn't going to happen on this side of heaven.

 

What am I commanded to do? Love my neighbor. (Yes, my white, black, Asian, gay, straight, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. neighbors). Love my God. I am not commanded to force the world to conform to scripture. In fact it is pretty clear from scripture that it will not happen, and God already knows that. I am only to conform myself, and love others. The end.

[Mrs Mungo]

As a Christian that also happens to be conservative, I feel the need to apologize on behalf of people that claim to share my faith, yet are not representing our Savior.

 

I've often said that it is a huge failing of the church, in general, that "we" expect non-Christians to behave like Christians. Why would you? Our family stays out of politics in general because we do not hold the belief that this is a Christian nation, nor that it was founded to be one. We do believe in separation of church and state, because I certainly do not want the government trying to legislate my faith. We realize that it is a two way street in that we should not try to legislate the nation into Christianity. Would I like to live in a Christian nation? Sure. But I also realize that it isn't going to happen on this side of heaven.

 

What am I commanded to do? Love my neighbor. (Yes, my white, black, Asian, gay, straight, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. neighbors). Love my God. I am not commanded to force the world to conform to scripture. In fact it is pretty clear from scripture that it will not happen, and God already knows that. I am only to conform myself, and love others. The end.

I whole-heartedly agree.

[Tanaqui]

What am I commanded to do? Love my neighbor.

 

Who was it who said that to love your neighbor is the whole of the law, everything else is just commentary? Hillel, right?

 

Personally, I'm offended by the pie link. I assure you that Family Support (now Readiness) Groups were/are a lot more than social clubs. Just this week our group spent hours putting sheets on the beds of soldiers returning home from deployments, putting goodies in their rooms, putting together toiletry bags, etc so that they didn't return home to bare rooms at 10 pm at night. Maybe skippy thinks those things happen by magic?

 

Perhaps the one at his base was simply very poorly run. I didn't mean to upset you, and I apologize.

 

[justasque]

Except if you are Masterpiece Cake shop in Colorado, where you can be penalized anyway even though gay marriage itself is illegal.   (Before October 2014). 

Talk about crazy.  Shop owner was penalized by the state for failing to provide a cake for a wedding the state didn't even recognize itself.

 

Because, according to this article, Colorado’s Anti-Discrimination Act prohibits public accommodations from refusing service based on race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation.  So the Anti-Discrimination Act would apply even if the marriage was not state-recognized.

 

We are in a time where many people are re-thinking their understanding of same-sex attraction, and laws are changing because of it.  Thus in some cases laws in a particular jurisdiction may not be consistent with each other.  This is in part an effect of allowing marriage laws to be state-based rather than having one federal definition of marriage.

[Mrs Mungo]

Perhaps the one at his base was simply very poorly run. I didn't mean to upset you, and I apologize.

It didn't really *upset* me, probably offended was the wrong word. It just annoyed me. Punk (not you, him)!

[DesertBlossom]

If I sell cakes to the public, then yes. My knowledge of the purpose of the cake after sale is relevant only to the extent that I need to know in order to meet the customer's specifications within the range of customization I offer. If I find a particular customized feature objectionable I simply won't offer it. For example, I'll sell a cake to a guy who plans to serve it at a KKK meeting, but I'm not going to draw a burning cross on it in frosting and fondant.

 

I pondered the "objectionable religious ceremony" and couldn't think of one I'd personally object to, though there are plenty I wouldn't participate in myself.

 

I'd make a cake for a jewish wedding, but I wouldn't make one for a brit milah (assuming they would have a cake at such an event).  

 

 

I think private businesses should be able to discriminate. Not the government. Not schools. But regular business owners. Why not let them show their true colors? If a business owner is a closet racist or hostile towards certain groups of people, wouldn't you like to know so you could choose to shop elsewhere? Remember when businesses used to have signs up that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?"  I always assumed that was so they could throw out disruptive people, but I kind of think that private business owners ought to be able to sell their services to only the people they want to. 

 

I don't know, maybe that's opening a giant can of worms. But I'd like to believe that as a society we are diverse and tolerant enough that minority groups would still have plenty of places to shop at and receive services from, even if a small number of people discriminate against them.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'd make a cake for a jewish wedding, but I wouldn't make one for a brit milah (assuming they would have a cake at such an event).  

 

 

I think private businesses should be able to discriminate. Not the government. Not schools. But regular business owners. Why not let them show their true colors? If a business owner is a closet racist or hostile towards certain groups of people, wouldn't you like to know so you could choose to shop elsewhere? Remember when businesses used to have signs up that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?"  I always assumed that was so they could throw out disruptive people, but I kind of think that private business owners ought to be able to sell their services to only the people they want to. 

 

I don't know, maybe that's opening a giant can of worms. But I'd like to believe that as a society we are diverse and tolerant enough that minority groups would still have plenty of places to shop at and receive services from, even if a small number of people discriminate against them.

That is optimistic, maybe. But, it is also naive and coming from a place of privilege.

 

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/green-book-helped-keep-african-americans-safe-on-the-road

[MrsBasil]

I'm no longer a conservative Christian. When I was more conservative, the wedding cake issue didn't bother me. I looked at it as similar to the Muslim cab driver and seeing eye dog/duty free alcohol issue. I thought, and still think, bakeries should just make the cake. I don't think it shows any kind of approval of the event.

[Guest]

I'd make a cake for a jewish wedding, but I wouldn't make one for a brit milah (assuming they would have a cake at such an event).

 

 

I think private businesses should be able to discriminate. Not the government. Not schools. But regular business owners. Why not let them show their true colors? If a business owner is a closet racist or hostile towards certain groups of people, wouldn't you like to know so you could choose to shop elsewhere? Remember when businesses used to have signs up that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?" I always assumed that was so they could throw out disruptive people, but I kind of think that private business owners ought to be able to sell their services to only the people they want to.

 

I don't know, maybe that's opening a giant can of worms. But I'd like to believe that as a society we are diverse and tolerant enough that minority groups would still have plenty of places to shop at and receive services from, even if a small number of people discriminate against them.

You assume wrong. History shows us otherwise. It is more basic to human nature to shun those not like oneself than it is to embrace all. That is the whole reason laws have been made to protect minority groups.

[Amira]

I'd make a cake for a jewish wedding, but I wouldn't make one for a brit milah (assuming they would have a cake at such an event).  

 

 

I think private businesses should be able to discriminate. Not the government. Not schools. But regular business owners. Why not let them show their true colors? If a business owner is a closet racist or hostile towards certain groups of people, wouldn't you like to know so you could choose to shop elsewhere? Remember when businesses used to have signs up that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?"  I always assumed that was so they could throw out disruptive people, but I kind of think that private business owners ought to be able to sell their services to only the people they want to. 

 

I don't know, maybe that's opening a giant can of worms. But I'd like to believe that as a society we are diverse and tolerant enough that minority groups would still have plenty of places to shop at and receive services from, even if a small number of people discriminate against them.

 

I'd hate to figure out what places did serve and didn't serve Mormons every time I moved to a new place in the US.  It could make ordering pizza hard the first night.

 

And then I'd have to figure out all the places that refused to serve people based on any currently protected class and avoid them too.  

 

That would have been after applying the same rules to all the landlords I talked to as we tried to find a place to rent before moving.  And the moving companies!  I might as well just stay out of the US.

[Jane in NC]

Ok, so I didn't leave... yet... but my mind has come up with a purely speculative question.

 

Would people be complaining if a baker refused to provide a cake (of any sort) to a KKK event?

 

We have those around here occasionally (sadly).  I don't know that they ever ask for catering of any sort.  But still...

 

Personally I wouldn't have any problem providing a wedding cake to a gay couple (quite honestly they wouldn't want any wedding cake I attempted to bake, but that's a different issue).  I would, however, not care to support a KKK event.  I wonder how compatible that is in my thoughts.

 

And that's why this is purely speculative.

 

As I read this thread, I too thought of the KKK and other repugnant groups.  While the speech of these groups is protected, I am wondering if I would be obligated to perform business transactions with the group itself.  As a gas station owner, for example, I might sell fuel to a member of the group--but this in no way implies that I support the group's politics.  (Just as Walmart does not support the politics of its plethora of customers.)

 

Seriously...do you think it is necessary because no one knows which bakers are known to do Christian (or whichever religion) weddings?  I think that would be pretty easy to determine, as some of them even have names that are Biblical references.

 

 

I have no idea how to answer your question that is directed to me.  Bakeries have names that are Biblical references?  Bakers near me have cutesy names or family names.  I would assume that the Ephesus bakery is Turkish--or does that strike you as biblical?

 

Maybe I'm just not up on the wedding scene.  Nor do I ask small business owners in my town about their religion, their sexuality, their past marriages, or how many toes they have.  Frankly I want to maintain professional relationships with these people so the church or temple they attend (or whether they attend) is immaterial to me.