Why do so many conservative Christians feel they have to dictate how the rest of us live?

[Cammie]

I really, really don't understand.

 

I have no problem with whatever people want to believe.  Your personal, private beliefs are your own business.

 

I have no problem with whatever rules churches want to have for their followers.  Again, freedom of religion and all that.

 

I would LOVE to understand why conservative Christians have decided that their rules apply to ALL OF US??

 

Do conservative Christians no longer believe in separation of Church and State?  It seems to have backfired in Florida where conservative Christians forced their presence in government buildings and now everyone from Satanists to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster gets to have a presence in government buildings. 

 

You don't believe that same sex couples should marry...fine.  Please do not perform such weddings in your church.  Please do not attend such weddings...don't even send a gift.  But why oh why should you get to determine what the rest of us do in our churches? Or backyards? Or wherever?

 

And, for what it is worth, while you may have been convinced by your church and your pastor that your way is the ONLY TRUE WAY to be a Christian. Please understand that many, many people around the world, for 2000 years have found many other ways to be Christian.  You do NOT have a monopoly on Christ, on Christianity, on what it means to love Jesus or follow his teachings.  Yours is a fairly American centered type of Christianity.  Again, you are certainly free to believe and practice your particular brand of Christianity.  But why does that have to include forcing that brand on everyone else?  And why does it have to argue that every other way of being a Christian is wrong?

[Cammie]

I would love to hear the reason why conservative Christians feel the need to direct how other people who do not identify with that group live their lives.

 

I wouldn't have asked the question if I didn't want an answer.

 

Just like I am sure that people really wanted to know why Atheists feel they can speak to the teachings of Christ. 

[SemiSweet]

I'm interested in real input. And the reasoning behind why some things are held with SO much more weight given to them. I don't get it.

[SeaConquest]

IMHO, it's the nature of those elements of Christianity that are heavily into proselytism. You don't see Jews trying to pass laws that force everyone to eat kosher or abstain from work on the Sabbath because proselytism just isn't a part of our faith. Hard to live and let live when a huge focus of your faith is attempting to convert people to your 'one true' belief system.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Yeah, I never understood either and I was raised in a very fundamental and conservative church/home (turned me off all religion and god stuff).  I don't think it's just fundamental Christians though, you see it in many religions.  

 

I've written more and then deleted and written something else and then deleted and decided to not say anything else inflammatory because one, I'm really not in the mood to fight and two I know that for me I'm right and I don't mind if I'm the only one that agrees with me.

 

Also, Cammie I was a bit perturbed at the thread you mentioned ( Atheists feel they can speak to the teachings of Christ.) but I just let it go because nothing I say on here will change anyone's mind or make them realize just because they believe themselves to be right does not make me wrong.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'll be brave and put out a couple of thoughts.  For the interest of full disclosure I'm a conservative Christian but I don't believe everything that some conservative Christians do.  

 

There is a belief stemming from Old Testament Israel, that a nation should obey God in order to have prosperity and security.  Some go so far as to see the US as a "Christian nation" that has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen nation for this time in history.  They want to protect that.  They want prosperity and security in the nation.  They see certain sins as a threat to that.

 

 I'm tired and am going to go to bed but that is one very simplistic answer based on the theology of some conservative Christians.  

[foxbridgeacademy]

IMHO, it's the nature of those elements of Christianity that are heavily into proselytism. You don't see Jews trying to pass laws that force everyone to eat kosher or abstain from work on the Sabbath because proselytism just isn't a part of our faith. Hard to live and let live when a huge focus of your faith is attempting to convert people to your 'one true' belief system.

And this was one of the ideas I was trying to express but could not put into as clear and well said words as you have.  

We were told to testify every chance we got, to not do so was a sin in of itself.  We were also taught that we were the only religion that was going to heaven, everyone else was going to hell.

[Cammie]

IMHO, it's the nature of those elements of Christianity that are heavily into proselytism. You don't see Jews trying to pass laws that force everyone to eat kosher or abstain from work on the Sabbath because proselytism just isn't a part of our faith. Hard to live and let live when a huge focus of your faith is attempting to convert people to your 'one true' belief system.

 

That could be part of it.  However, I come out of a liberal Christian background (father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were all church pastors). They have been involved in church-building around the world.  For my father that meant funding church construction for groups of people who wanted to have a church in their community.  It meant explaining his faith and offering an opportunity to join to those people who felt moved to join.  I think that could also be considered as proselytism.  However it was never based on exclusion or antagonism.  It was very inclusive and my father had no problem participating in my traditional Hindu wedding.  That is what I mean by different Christians having different approaches across the spectrum.  It is possible to believe, strongly, in your religion without feeling the need to force it upon everyone else around you. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'll be brave and put out a couple of thoughts.  For the interest of full disclosure I'm a conservative Christian but I don't believe everything that some conservative Christians do.  

 

There is a belief stemming from Old Testament Israel, that a nation should obey God in order to have prosperity and security.  Some go so far as to see the US as a "Christian nation" that has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen nation for this time in history.  They want to protect that.  They want prosperity and security in the nation.  They see certain sins as a threat to that.

 

 I'm tired and am going to go to bed but that is one very simplistic answer based on the theology of some conservative Christians.  

Yes, that is probably one  facet of the issue.  I think another drive for some (not all) is that they are living by particular rules they sacrifice and subjugate themselves to live by those rules.  If I'm allowed to go about my merry way living in sin (and my government approves!) then that invalidates their way of life and brings into question all those sacrifices.

For my father, he truly believes that willfully committing  acts of sin without repentance will send you to hell.  He doesn't want his daughters to go to hell so his belief and anti-gay stance comes from fear and love (his daughters are bi-sexual) so acceptance of gay marriage is particularly difficult for him. But unlike many fundamentals he doesn't try to push his way of life on others including his children.

 

ETA: It is also my belief that it is not Christianity's fault that people are intolerant, I think it is human nature to be intolerant, and also human nature to find tolerance and acceptance of things we don't understand or agree with.  We aren't simple creatures none of us fit in a box.

[Cammie]

I'll be brave and put out a couple of thoughts.  For the interest of full disclosure I'm a conservative Christian but I don't believe everything that some conservative Christians do.  

 

There is a belief stemming from Old Testament Israel, that a nation should obey God in order to have prosperity and security.  Some go so far as to see the US as a "Christian nation" that has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen nation for this time in history.  They want to protect that.  They want prosperity and security in the nation.  They see certain sins as a threat to that.

 

 I'm tired and am going to go to bed but that is one very simplistic answer based on the theology of some conservative Christians.  

 

Jean, this is exactly what I was wondering about.  I don't understand how this view is then put into the context of America and the founding principles.  I have never heard any conservative group actually say the founding fathers got it wrong.  I have never heard them say anything against America as it was envisioned.  I understand they believe we are a "Christian nation" but that seems not to jive with the freedoms that were guaranteed and even the concerns that certain Christian sects had regarding religious liberty.  It was to protect certain very conservative Christian groups (as I understand it) that those religious freedoms were enshrined in the first place.

 

I really appreciate a dialogue on this.  The country I live in now has an incredible amount of religious diversity.  However, the form that secularism has taken is very different from the form that it is taking in America.  If the majority community started making the same arguments that are being made by some conservative Christians in the US the world would look upon it as a horrible intrusion on the rights of minorities here.  I'm really just trying to wrap my head around the arguments.

 

Thanks!

[foxbridgeacademy]

I really like that we are 14 posts in and this hasn't turned into a grudge match.  :hurray: <smiley emoticon clapping

[SeaConquest]

That could be part of it.  However, I come out of a liberal Christian background (father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were all church pastors). They have been involved in church-building around the world.  For my father that meant funding church construction for groups of people who wanted to have a church in their community.  It meant explaining his faith and offering an opportunity to join to those people who felt moved to join.  I think that could also be considered as proselytism.  However it was never based on exclusion or antagonism.  It was very inclusive and my father had no problem participating in my traditional Hindu wedding.  That is what I mean by different Christians having different approaches across the spectrum.  It is possible to believe, strongly, in your religion without feeling the need to force it upon everyone else around you. 

 

This isn't the kind of 'I have an obligation to save your soul from hellfire damnation' proselytizing to which I am referring. I have no issue with sharing one's faith with people who have expressed an interest in learning more about it. 

[Catwoman]

 It must be very scary to believe that your child might be going to hell.

 

I hadn't thought about it before you mentioned it, but that is so true. I mean, you and I can say there is nothing to worry about, but a parent who was raised with that kind of belief system would be terrified if their child didn't "meet the criteria," so to speak.

 

It must be awful to worry like that, because you can't control your child's identity.

 

And think of the guilt involved, too, if those parents were raised to believe that being gay was a choice their child made, rather than just the way he was born. The parents might be riddled with guilt, wondering what they had done wrong to "turn their child gay." And again, we could tell them they hadn't done anything wrong at all, but who would believe us over a lifetime of that kind of strong belief?

 

It's very sad, when you think about it.

 

I have always thought about how the gay kids would feel, but the parents must really agonize about it, too, if their religion is strictly anti-gay. :(

[Catwoman]

Out of likes so I'm liking your post Cat.

I just got some likes back, so I was able to like your posts, too. Of course, now that I said I have them back, they will probably be gone again.

 

Likes are tricky.

[OneStepAtATime]

I was raised in a conservative Christian household.  I was not raised to believe that only my religion is the right one (or that anyone who does not have a religion is a bad person).  We are all on our own journey and must follow that journey wherever it takes us.  If that journey intersects with someone else's, that's great.  If not, that's o.k., too.  I was raised to cherish how amazingly diverse our planet is.

 

 But I remember vividly when my locker partner in my middle school gym class realized I was not part of her faith.  She freaked.  We were friends.  We'd been friends for a couple of years.  It suddenly hit her that because I wasn't her exact brand of Christian I was going to hell.  The poor P.E. teacher had to bring us into her office and try to deal with her hysteria and my feeling like I'd been punched in the gut.  She didn't even want to be friends anymore unless I converted to her brand of religion because it would be too painful knowing I was going to hell.  I was stunned.  And I had to accept that our friendship was over, even though I had no problems with her having different beliefs from mine.  She could not reciprocate.  In all these years, I have rarely run into this IRL, though.

 

 

 

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'll be brave and put out a couple of thoughts.  For the interest of full disclosure I'm a conservative Christian but I don't believe everything that some conservative Christians do.  

 

There is a belief stemming from Old Testament Israel, that a nation should obey God in order to have prosperity and security.  Some go so far as to see the US as a "Christian nation" that has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen nation for this time in history.  They want to protect that.  They want prosperity and security in the nation.  They see certain sins as a threat to that.

 

 I'm tired and am going to go to bed but that is one very simplistic answer based on the theology of some conservative Christians.  

 

Thank you, Jean. 

 

I really hope this thread is still here in a few hours, because I'd love to read the reasoning of those who do answer (though, unfortunately, I suspect that number won't be very large). 

[Rosie_0801]

ETA: It is also my belief that it is not Christianity's fault that people are intolerant, I think it is human nature to be intolerant, and also human nature to find tolerance and acceptance of things we don't understand or agree with.  We aren't simple creatures none of us fit in a box.

 

I think the good v evil paradigm makes it more difficult for people to grow into an understanding of that which falls between absolute opposites, and sometimes even a recognition that there is anything *except* those two opposites. I prefer to work with a healthy-unhealthy spectrum. 

[Rosie_0801]

Since we're on the subject of the gays, I consider it healthy for gay people to be in intimate relationships with people of the same gender and I consider it unhealthy for me, since I'm not gay. 

 

I consider cake an unhealthy food. If I am sick, eating cake is a more unhealthy choice than if I'm well. If I'm totally pms-ing, eating cake would be good for my soul and that would temporarily trump the sugar content. :p

[bettyandbob]

There are some who never believed in separation of church and state.

 

Some people claim the U.S. is a Christian nation simply because most of the founding fathers identified themselves as Christian. They conveniently forget the fact that those founding fathers specifically wanted separation of church and state. They also don't seem to really understand or believe that some founding fathers were Christian more because of custom at the time than actual belief.

[creekland]

 It is possible to believe, strongly, in your religion without feeling the need to force it upon everyone else around you. 

 

This is where I fit in.  I am what I consider to be a Conservative Christian (though I suspect others more conservative would disagree).  I attend a fairly conservative church and most members believe more conservative views.  I consider the Bible to be true and a road map for how God wants us to live.  We may not understand all of it.  We may not interpret all of it correctly.  But nonetheless, it is my road map for life.

 

To me, this includes letting others have the freedom to believe (or not) and choose their paths for themselves.  My relationship is solely between myself and God, though I am responsible for bringing my children up with knowledge of my faith and their God.  It is 100% up to THEM to decide if they choose to follow Him or not and I accept this.

 

Why are others more intolerant?  Honestly?  Generally it's out of love and not wanting others to make choices that lead them to hell.  That IS their real belief.  I suppose that is telling about me that I DON'T care enough about others?  Perhaps.  I see it as a freedom God gives us.

 

At any time in life (aside from inside school with kids) anyone can ask me why I believe what I do and  I will tell them - although add another aside here that I rarely do it on message boards like this one due to the written word being FAR more difficult to interpret and things can go very wrong.  This is one attempt at an exception.  ;)  But even when I tell them why I believe as I do, I have no expectation that they need to share my views and I don't choose my friends/acquaintances, etc based upon their views.

 

The other thing that gets many is the lack of tolerance from the more modern world (US anyway).  The rest of the world says they are ok respecting conservative Christian views, but when that means the owner of a bakery doesn't want to bake a wedding cake for a marriage they don't see as valid, how well does that go over?  IMO, the bakery should be allowed to do as they see fit - and others can choose to buy things there or not based upon how they see it.  How did those suggesting tolerance take to the Chick Fil A deal?  It's things like that that create the "war" for many.  They are NOT allowed to have their views and be accepted.

 

I suppose I should add that my views, while quite conservative myself, are something I don't hold to others - period.  Therefore, I have no issues with gay vs not even if my boys should bring home a significant other.  They are 100% allowed to have their views and still be accepted by me even if I have mine.

 

My Bible tells me to not judge the world, so I don't (terrorism excepted), and my Bible tells me that as much as it is possible according to me to live at peace with the world.  I have no problems with that.  This is why I don't have issues with polar opposite views while keeping my own, but as mentioned before, others care more about Heaven/Hell and try their best to convince others that "our" way is the way because they care about them.  Maybe I just don't care enough.  I personally feel it's not up to me to make that decision for others.

 

Make sense?

[Cammie]

This is where I fit in.  I am what I consider to be a Conservative Christian (though I suspect others more conservative would disagree).  I attend a fairly conservative church and most members believe more conservative views.  I consider the Bible to be true and a road map for how God wants us to live.  We may not understand all of it.  We may not interpret all of it correctly.  But nonetheless, it is my road map for life.

 

To me, this includes letting others have the freedom to believe (or not) and choose their paths for themselves.  My relationship is solely between myself and God, though I am responsible for bringing my children up with knowledge of my faith and their God.  It is 100% up to THEM to decide if they choose to follow Him or not and I accept this.

 

Why are others more intolerant?  Honestly?  Generally it's out of love and not wanting others to make choices that lead them to hell.  That IS their real belief.  I suppose that is telling about me that I DON'T care enough about others?  Perhaps.  I see it as a freedom God gives us.

 

At any time in life (aside from inside school with kids) anyone can ask me why I believe what I do and  I will tell them - although add another aside here that I rarely do it on message boards like this one due to the written word being FAR more difficult to interpret and things can go very wrong.  This is one attempt at an exception.   ;)  But even when I tell them why I believe as I do, I have no expectation that they need to share my views and I don't choose my friends/acquaintances, etc based upon their views.

 

The other thing that gets many is the lack of tolerance from the more modern world (US anyway).  The rest of the world says they are ok respecting conservative Christian views, but when that means the owner of a bakery doesn't want to bake a wedding cake for a marriage they don't see as valid, how well does that go over?  IMO, the bakery should be allowed to do as they see fit - and others can choose to buy things there or not based upon how they see it.  How did those suggesting tolerance take to the Chick Fil A deal?  It's things like that that create the "war" for many.  They are NOT allowed to have their views and be accepted.

 

I suppose I should add that my views, while quite conservative myself, are something I don't hold to others - period.  Therefore, I have no issues with gay vs not even if my boys should bring home a significant other.  They are 100% allowed to have their views and still be accepted by me even if I have mine.

 

My Bible tells me to not judge the world, so I don't (terrorism excepted), and my Bible tells me that as much as it is possible according to me to live at peace with the world.  I have no problems with that.  This is why I don't have issues with polar opposite views while keeping my own, but as mentioned before, others care more about Heaven/Hell and try their best to convince others that "our" way is the way because they care about them.  Maybe I just don't care enough.  I personally feel it's not up to me to make that decision for others.

 

Make sense?

 

I really, really appreciate your answer.  We may not agree on everything, but I am so grateful you took time to explain your world view.  Thank you.

 

[Laura Corin]

It helped me to understand when someone used the (old) metaphor of wanting to shout, scream, hold someone down when they were running towards a cliff.  If you really believe that an atheist, for example, is heading for torment, then it would be a failure of love to stay silent.

 

I still disagree with this point of view, despite understanding it better: maybe I know (just as surely as the CC knows otherwise) that what looks like a cliff is just a ledge; maybe the screamer has wandered onto a film set and there is a bank of mattresses set up below the cliff; maybe I have just received a terminal diagnosis and have decided to take my own life in consequence.  The conservative Christian's reality (that hell exists and others can be saved from it), however honestly believed, is not mine.  Her cliff is not mine and she has no right to dictate my actions.

 

L

[linders]

I think is is part of the evangelism built into Christianity - the idea that Jesus wanted his followers to convert others. And true conversion, to some, would involve not only "helping" someone know and accept Jesus, but follow a strict set of beliefs, whatever those are. There are those in my own Presbyterian Church who frown because I'm not much at evangelizing - I have a pretty liberal view that says most religions (or no religion!) are okay.

 

Judaism seems like more of something you are born into - not converted to (for my Jewish friends, I apologize if that is too simplistic). Islam, like Christianity, is very much about conversion, and there are some groups (think ISIS) that want to extend that to conforming to a strict way of life.

[Rosie_0801]

 Islam, like Christianity, is very much about conversion,

 

I think that depends where you live. Islam in my little bubble here is very much about education and social justice, and not at all about conversion.

[Cammie]

I think that depends where you live. Islam in my little bubble here is very much about education and social justice, and not at all about conversion.

 

You are right.  Where I live conversion is a VERY touchy subject...mostly because of the abuse that was used to convert Hindus to Christianity when the nation was still under British rule.  There is a term known as "rice Christians" to describe the conversions that took place just to get the benefits that were being offered to new converts.

[JFSinIL]

I was about 8 or 9  in Sunday School at St. Norberts and while the instructor was going on about only Roman Catholicism being the one true religion etc. etc. and how all other religions were false and the people mistaken/in need of salvation, I started to think along the lines of "But I am sure most people in other religions BELIEVE theirs is the one true religion, too. Just as strongly as RCs believe in their religion. So either ALL religions are true, or none are."  I figured people in other religions had as strong a faith in God sa a RC, just via a different "channel".  I wondered, too, if folks in other religions felt the need to save RCs!

 

I know how old I was, as Mom stopped sending me to Sunday School after CCD started up in 5th grade.

[Caribbean Queen]

 

I would LOVE to understand why conservative Christians have decided that their rules apply to ALL OF US??

 

You don't believe that same sex couples should marry...fine.   But why oh why should you get to determine what the rest of us do in our churches?

 

Well, if same sex marriage is evil and wrong, then outlawing it would be akin to outlawing theft, assault and  fraud.  We should outlaw what is evil and wrong.

 

If same sex marriage is good and right, then no one has the right to interfere with it.

[ktgrok]

What I don't get, is the legislating others to act acording to your beliefs. God gave us free will because otherwise there was no point to use being "good". Shouldn't we do the same for our fellow man? I have lots of beliefs that I think are right, that I don't expect others to follow. They may even "run off that cliff" in the analogy above. But there is no benefit to their soul to do the right thing only because they have to by law, so it wouldn't help them to pass a law against whatever it is. I can try to convince them not to do whatever it is by my words, deeds, love...but legislating it doesn't produce any spiritual benefit for them. 

[Chris in VA]

I was about 8 or 9  in Sunday School at St. Norberts and while the instructor was going on about only Roman Catholicism being the one true religion etc. etc. and how all other religions were false and the people mistaken/in need of salvation, I started to think along the lines of "But I am sure most people in other religions BELIEVE theirs is the one true religion, too. Just as strongly as RCs believe in their religion. So either ALL religions are true, or none are."  I figured people in other religions had as strong a faith in God sa a RC, just via a different "channel".  I wondered, too, if folks in other religions felt the need to save RCs!

 

I know how old I was, as Mom stopped sending me to Sunday School after CCD started up in 5th grade.

 

Not really weighing in on this thread, but I just wanted to point out, in your example, that your idea of "believing something makes it true" is not exactly true.

 

Just saying. Carry on. :)

 

[bettyandbob]

Well, if same sex marriage is evil and wrong, then outlawing it would be akin to outlawing theft, assault and fraud. We should outlaw what is evil and wrong.

 

If same sex marriage is good and right, then no one has the right to interfere with it.

Except that outlawing theft, assault, fraud, ect is outlawing behavior that interferes with another citizen's life directly.

 

Same sex marriage has no direct effect on being able to live my life the way I decide my faith dictates. So, there is no reason to make laws against it.

[Caribbean Queen]

Except that outlawing theft, assault, fraud, ect is outlawing behavior that interferes with another citizen's life directly.

 

Same sex marriage has no direct effect on being able to live my life the way I decide my faith dictates. So, there is no reason to make laws against it.

 

I don't think that we allow anything as long as it doesn't interfere with other citizens.  For instance, a doctor is not allowed to kill his patient, even if the patient is terminally ill, and requests for the doctor to do so. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, if same sex marriage is evil and wrong, then outlawing it would be akin to outlawing theft, assault and  fraud.  We should outlaw what is evil and wrong.

 

If same sex marriage is good and right, then no one has the right to interfere with it.

 

Except in a secular society what is "evil and wrong" shouldn't be based on religious beliefs but rather on whether the act in question causes harm to others,

[Cammie]

I don't think that we allow anything as long as it doesn't interfere with other citizens.  For instance, a doctor is not allowed to kill his patient, even if the patient is terminally ill, and requests for the doctor to do so. 

 

He is certainly allowed to help the patient die in some places...Oregon for instance.

[Farrar]

I don't think that we allow anything as long as it doesn't interfere with other citizens.  For instance, a doctor is not allowed to kill his patient, even if the patient is terminally ill, and requests for the doctor to do so. 

 

Actually in some countries they do. And in the US, Oregon has an assisted suicide law.

 

I'm actually for assisted suicide, but I think one of the best arguments against it is not religious but goes back to the idea of not harming others in that if it were really common, the risk for abuse would be ripe and therefore people would be harmed. As in, the risk would outweigh the benefits.

 

For secularists, I think the concepts of not harming or interfering with others and contributing to the common good (such as by protecting the environment and having a safety net for the poor) are the two guiding principles. Not evil.

[Cammie]

What strikes me is that so many answers say it is out of love that conservative Christians try to control the behavior of others.  But it sure doesn't feel loving to the one who is the target.  Interesting.

[plansrme]

Other than same-sex marriage, what, exactly, are we taking about Christians forcing on others?

[Scarlett]

I really, really don't understand.

 

I have no problem with whatever people want to believe. Your personal, private beliefs are your own business.

 

I have no problem with whatever rules churches want to have for their followers. Again, freedom of religion and all that.

 

I would LOVE to understand why conservative Christians have decided that their rules apply to ALL OF US??

 

Do conservative Christians no longer believe in separation of Church and State? It seems to have backfired in Florida where conservative Christians forced their presence in government buildings and now everyone from Satanists to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster gets to have a presence in government buildings.

 

You don't believe that same sex couples should marry...fine. Please do not perform such weddings in your church. Please do not attend such weddings...don't even send a gift. But why oh why should you get to determine what the rest of us do in our churches? Or backyards? Or wherever?

 

And, for what it is worth, while you may have been convinced by your church and your pastor that your way is the ONLY TRUE WAY to be a Christian. Please understand that many, many people around the world, for 2000 years have found many other ways to be Christian. You do NOT have a monopoly on Christ, on Christianity, on what it means to love Jesus or follow his teachings. Yours is a fairly American centered type of Christianity. Again, you are certainly free to believe and practice your particular brand of Christianity. But why does that have to include forcing that brand on everyone else? And why does it have to argue that every other way of being a Christian is wrong?

Just FTR, I don't know if I am considered a conservative Christian or not. But at any rate I am not trying to force anyone to do anything in anyway. I don't try to change any law. I will how ever continue to speak my believes when it is relevant ( like such a discussion on this board).

 

As far as what I believe.....sure I believe it to be right. Otherwise why would I bother.

[Cammie]

Other than same-sex marriage, what, exactly, are we taking about Christians forcing on others?

 

The entire breakdown of the separation of church and state.  Many conservative Christians are consistently supporting legislation to break down the protections that civil society has created (see what just passed in Minnesota).   Why did conservative Christians fight so hard in Florida to allow religious displays in government buildings?  Why is it so important to have religion mixed in with government and civil society?  Religion is ALWAYS used as an argument about allowing women choice in birth control and abortion.  Why should someone else's religion dictate what I am allowed to do to my own body?  These are honest questions.  I truly don't know the answer.  I believe that the foundation of the US was freedom of belief.  Not freedom to enforce one's belief on others.  But freedom from being dominated by another's religious beliefs.  Each to their own.  I don't understand how conservative Christians jive that background with laws that are based purely on their own religious beliefs.

[wonderchica]

Re: separation of church and state- What I have frequently heard from conservative Christians and their pastors is that America's founding fathers always intended us to be a "Christian nation". Separation of church and state was not intended (per them) to keep religion out of the government, but to keep the government out of the church. Therefore, it was always intended for "Christian values" to heavily influence and/or define laws but not for the government to interfere with the activities of churches.

[shawthorne44]

...

You don't believe that same sex couples should marry...fine.  Please do not perform such weddings in your church.  Please do not attend such weddings...don't even send a gift.  But why oh why should you get to determine what the rest of us do in our churches? Or backyards? Or wherever?

...

 

 

Well, this is an example of how it goes both ways.  People with wedding chapels who don't believe in same-sex marriages are having their livelihood taken away.   The argument is that if it is legal, then they can't refuse to serve someone and to do so is discrimination.  

 

On the topic of abortion, religion is never an argument I've heard.  "It is murder" is the basic argument.   The right to stretch your arm ends at your neighbor's nose.  

 

I think fundamentally, though, you have a base assumption that America was founded with the government being completely areligious.  That isn't so.  They didn't want a state religion.  They did things that would be unthinkable now, like using government funds to buy bibles.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't encounter conservative Christians very often at all so I don't really feel a sense that they dictate how I live.  I hear of stuff on the news or read of conservatives on-line, but that's about as much as I encounter.  It seems to me that we hear about and from those who are extreme.  They have views that make the news (I'm a poet and didn't know it).  But I don't get the impression they are any sort of majority.  At least not around here.  I do live in a very secular part of the country though so my experiences may be different than in other parts of the country.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

But just going by the sentiment of what you are asking, yes I am somewhat baffled by pushy people.  About anything.  Not just religion.  Even though I'm not religious, I have no desire to "convert" or "preach" against religion. 

[plansrme]

The entire breakdown of the separation of church and state. Many conservative Christians are consistently supporting legislation to break down the protections that civil society has created (see what just passed in Minnesota). Why did conservative Christians fight so hard in Florida to allow religious displays in government buildings? Why is it so important to have religion mixed in with government and civil society? Religion is ALWAYS used as an argument about allowing women choice in birth control and abortion. Why should someone else's religion dictate what I am allowed to do to my own body? These are honest questions. I truly don't know the answer. I believe that the foundation of the US was freedom of belief. Not freedom to enforce one's belief on others. But freedom from being dominated by another's religious beliefs. Each to their own. I don't understand how conservative Christians jive that background with laws that are based purely on their own religious beliefs.

So gay marriage and abortion? I don't think of abortion as a Christian versus unchristian issue; it is whether you believe life begins at conception and a weighing of the value of that life versus other factors. But those are scientific and moral questions with which even non-Christians need to wrestle.

[flyingiguana]

IMHO, it's the nature of those elements of Christianity that are heavily into proselytism. You don't see Jews trying to pass laws that force everyone to eat kosher or abstain from work on the Sabbath because proselytism just isn't a part of our faith.

 

I don't know the answer to this question, so I'm not asking to be snarky --

 

As Jews are in the majority (?) in Israel, do they tend to pass laws that require people to observe Jewish religious law?

 

I know that's not a fair comparison to the topic under discussion.  I suspect the topic is actually why do conservatives who are not actually in the majority (least, not in most states) try to pass laws that are against the religious beliefs of the majority?  (And why are they able to do it, if the majority don't agree?)

 

 

[Cammie]

So gay marriage and abortion? I don't think of abortion as a Christian versus unchristian issue; it is whether you believe life begins at conception and a weighing of the value of that life versus other factors. But those are scientific and moral questions with which even non-Christians need to wrestle.

 

But this conflates conservative Christian as "Christian" when not all Christians actually believe that life begins at conception.  There is this impression that conservative Christians have that all "Christians" believe XYZ (which happens to be the way they believe.)  My point is that not all Christians fall in line with that dogma. 

 

And I am very surprised to see people posting that anti-choice is not a "religious" position.  I don't think I have met/heard from an anti-choice person who did not strongly base their beliefs in their religious system.

 

[Cammie]

Well, this is an example of how it goes both ways.  People with wedding chapels who don't believe in same-sex marriages are having their livelihood taken away.   The argument is that if it is legal, then they can't refuse to serve someone and to do so is discrimination.  

 

On the topic of abortion, religion is never an argument I've heard.  "It is murder" is the basic argument.   The right to stretch your arm ends at your neighbor's nose.  

 

I think fundamentally, though, you have a base assumption that America was founded with the government being completely areligious.  That isn't so.  They didn't want a state religion.  They did things that would be unthinkable now, like using government funds to buy bibles.  

 

Nope.  As I explained (possibly in the other thread).  The argument is, if you have a public business you are not allowed to discriminate against those protected classes that the government has determined are entitled to protected class status under the law due to the history of discrimination against that particular class.

 

If you have a church, you can make your own rules.

 

If you open a business, you have to follow the rules that are put in place for all businesses.  It is part of the social contract and it is your legal obligation.

 

Do you not think that the conservative Christian movement in America is trying to move us towards a state religion?  Trying to impose their morality, their sense of right and wrong, or what is sin and what is not, on the nation as a whole?

[Amira]

I don't know the answer to this question, so I'm not asking to be snarky --

 

As Jews are in the majority (?) in Israel, do they tend to pass laws that require people to observe Jewish religious law?

 

I know that's not a fair comparison to the topic under discussion. I suspect the topic is actually why do conservatives who are not actually in the majority (least, not in most states) try to pass laws that are against the religious beliefs of the majority? (And why are they able to do it, if the majority don't agree?)

Israel does not generally make people follow Jewish law and many Jews in Israel aren't particularly religious. There are certain groups of Jews who would like other Jews to follow a stricter set of religious laws (and some get in the news because they're willing to go out and throw rocks at cars driving on the Sabbath, for example), but they're not that interested in whether Muslims or Christians are following Jewish law. Because it's *Jewish* law.

 

Many conservative Christians seem to think their interpretation of religious law applies to everyone. Huge difference.

[Veritaserum]

IMHO, it's the nature of those elements of Christianity that are heavily into proselytism. You don't see Jews trying to pass laws that force everyone to eat kosher or abstain from work on the Sabbath because proselytism just isn't a part of our faith. Hard to live and let live when a huge focus of your faith is attempting to convert people to your 'one true' belief system.

 

 

This rings true for me (as someone raised in a proselyting religion). We needed to share the Truth that we had (and no one else did) so that others could have access to the proper teachings and ordinances/ceremonies that would give them access to God in the afterlife.

 

 

I'll be brave and put out a couple of thoughts.  For the interest of full disclosure I'm a conservative Christian but I don't believe everything that some conservative Christians do.  

 

There is a belief stemming from Old Testament Israel, that a nation should obey God in order to have prosperity and security.  Some go so far as to see the US as a "Christian nation" that has taken the place of Israel as God's chosen nation for this time in history.  They want to protect that.  They want prosperity and security in the nation.  They see certain sins as a threat to that.

 

 I'm tired and am going to go to bed but that is one very simplistic answer based on the theology of some conservative Christians.

 

This also rings true for me. The religion I was raised in very much ties temporal prosperity with righteousness, so righteousness as a nation is important.

[ktgrok]

I don't know the answer to this question, so I'm not asking to be snarky --

 

As Jews are in the majority (?) in Israel, do they tend to pass laws that require people to observe Jewish religious law?

 

I know that's not a fair comparison to the topic under discussion.  I suspect the topic is actually why do conservatives who are not actually in the majority (least, not in most states) try to pass laws that are against the religious beliefs of the majority?  (And why are they able to do it, if the majority don't agree?)

 

But doing that makes the state/nation a theocracy. And the USA isn't a theocracy.

[Anne in CA]

There are lots of Christians who are for gay marriage and pro choice. As a society I wish we were better able to debate our differences without so much animosity. 

 

But, to the OP, dictating your beliefs to others when you are sure you are right is not the exclusive property of Christians, lol. It is the human condition. Atheists do it ALL THE TIME. I lived in Portland for 20 years, I worked in a large hotel where we did all the political meetings for the Democrat party. I was a Democrat until I went to enough of their secret meetings, lol. Those people are atheists, they believe they should dictate how other people live, and although I do see on TV things like the 700 club where Pat Robinson would cheerfully legislate morality, most Christians  I know personally are live and let live folks, so the real issue is not one sided.