In a season of constant discipline with a 6 yo. I thought they were supposed to be "pleasers" :)

[momee]

I have three older children, I should know this.  

 

Seasons pass...it will improve...it is worth it.

 

OH MY GOODNESS.  I feel like I am disciplining this kid every half hour!

:sad:

[fairfarmhand]

I get it,

 

I have a 6 yo too.

 

Our trampoline was smashed in a storm 3 weeks ago.

 

Oh my word. I miss it. (even my older kids miss it because they see how much little man needs it)

 

I used to be able to say, "Son go to the trampoline for 30 minutes." When he was getting out of hand. And it helped SO much! Now I can't

 

AUURRRGGHHH!!!

[momee]

I wish I had a farm like you, we need some wood cutting and pig slopping instead of spanking.

 

So really, I'd love to hear what exactly you do when, just hypothetically ;)....

 

you say there is a problem wrong on the math worksheet.

 

Said 6yo begins to fuss that she is just stupid, slams pencil.  You calmly! say the problem is wrong.  You are not stupid, please redo it. (You know a bigger tantrum is coming because you've done this three times this week already).

Said 6yo begins to throw book, knock chair down and cry loudly.

 

You say calmly! you are tired and need a rest.  I shouldn't have let you stay up until 9 and watch frozen with me cuddled up on the couch because mommy felt like you were an awful spawn yesterday and wanted to make up for her nasty heart toward you - oh wait  - I didn't say all that just felt like saying it

So I actually said go sit still on my bed (right off the school room) and rest.  You may come back when calm.  She throws even bigger fit, I go down for a drink of water so I don't lose it, come back up, she's playing with my glasses on the floor.

 

I grab her, spank her, she cries 5 minutes, calms down, and all of a sudden she is an obedient princess.

I however, am still shaking internally and feeling like I've done nothing right in 20 years of parenting.

[fairfarmhand]

Hey! I have to go school my kids, but I will be back to answer your questions.

 

I've BTDT!

[mom2myboys]

Maybe try a "time-in"? Instead of sending her away to calm herself, hug her and let her vent her frustration safely with you. Empathize with her frustration so she can get past it. 

 

((hugs)) I know it is hard. I have a challenging 6 year old myself. 

[bolt.]

There's a problem with a worksheet.

 

You calmy observe which exact math skill is not being properly or consistently applied or understood. You smile and get out something nice to drink while she finishes her attempt. You approve her for focusing and working hard as you file the worksheet and offer the drink.

 

In the meantime you find the resources you need to re-teach the under-functioning math skill, and then you teach it like its exactly what you had planned. You provide a new and different worksheet that involves the skill in question and note how much (if any) improvement is evident.

 

(Actually this 'trying while tired' event is great info on the status if her learning. It tells you *precisely* which concepts are solid and which ones are tenuous. You can't get a snapshot evaluation this specific many other ways. It's great data. Use it.)

 

You decide what to do tomorrow and for the rest of the week if it is evident that this skill will be needing extra attention. If the reviewing was enough, decide how frequently to review and which other skills or concepts might be due for a pre-emptive review.

 

Throughout, you make note of her emotional state and how it relates to her fatigue, and how that all relates to her capacity to learn and perform well today. If it's a day that needs to be lightened, you lighten it. If you can compensate for the fatigue with excellent hydration and frequent snacks, you of that. If it's a good day for a morning nap or extended read-alouds, you plan it. If it's a good day for outing-based learning rather than book work... Etc.

 

And if you need a "note to self" that 9:00pm can ruin a perfectly good am... Make that note to yourself, eh?

[Catwoman]

There's a problem with a worksheet.

 

You calmy observe which exact math skill is not being properly or consistently applied or understood. You smile and get out something nice to drink while she finishes her attempt. You approve her for focusing and working hard as you file the worksheet and offer the drink.

 

In the meantime you find the resources you need to re-teach the under-functioning math skill, and then you teach it like its exactly what you had planned. You provide a new and different worksheet that involves the skill in question and note how much (if any) improvement is evident.

 

(Actually this 'trying while tired' event is great info on the status if her learning. It tells you *precisely* which concepts are solid and which ones are tenuous. You can't get a snapshot evaluation this specific many other ways. It's great data. Use it.)

 

You decide what to do tomorrow and for the rest of the week if it is evident that this skill will be needing extra attention. If the reviewing was enough, decide how frequently to review and which other skills or concepts might be due for a pre-emptive review.

 

Throughout, you make note of her emotional state and how it relates to her fatigue, and how that all relates to her capacity to learn and perform well today. If it's a day that needs to be lightened, you lighten it. If you can compensate for the fatigue with excellent hydration and frequent snacks, you of that. If it's a good day for a morning nap or extended read-alouds, you plan it. If it's a good day for outing-based learning rather than book work... Etc.

 

And if you need a "note to self" that 9:00pm can ruin a perfectly good am... Make that note to yourself, eh?

That is perfectly sensible advice.

 

But in the heat of the moment when a kid is pitching a fit, it's not so easy to remain calm and positive -- particularly when it is a regular occurrence.

 

Momee -- sending you some hugs. :grouphug:

[bolt.]

I must have misunderstood. I thought the feelings overwhelmed the child *after* the momee identified the worksheet issue as a problem that the child had done wrong -- and was in the midst of giving the instruction to do the problem over again.

 

If the fussing began during the worksheet itself, or before beginning the worksheet, I could focus on finding a solution at that point instead... I always try to find a solution *before* the feelings get out of hand. The only solution *after* the feelings get out of hand is full empathy (with any necessary boundaries remaining intact), making amends, and trying to approach things differently next time.

[momee]

Bolt,

Just respectfully asking because things can easily be misinterpreted online...but did you mean to have a hint of sarcasm by adding the eh? at the end of your message or is that just a regional thing?  I would hope the prior but should just let you know it could read negatively.

 

I appreciate the advice, but I don't think there's a problem with her mathematical understanding.  

 

There's a problem with a sinful little spoiled girl who wants to throw a fit instead of do math.  I readily admit there is also a bit of a problem because there's also a sinful mom who is exasperated and lacking skills to handle the immediacy of the moment with enough self control and solid grounding herself in coping skills under such conditions, thus the reason for the vent/post/advice request.

 

I wish to emphasize that the wrong problem was only 1 wrong problem.  She got the rest right.  It didn't require another reteaching lesson, it required her taking a look at it and redo it of which she clearly didn't want to do for whatever, inconsequential reason.

 

I so appreciate your taking the time for a response though, and normally I would totally agree that grace and reteaching would be the appropriate response (I have done that repeatedly under different circumstances with a great outcome).  

 

Letting her stay up for half an hour extra is duly noted as a mistake, which is why I mentioned it :)  I actually was just feeling guilty for that and included it because I'm sure guilt comes into play with all of us when under a difficult parenting situation (don't we all blame ourselves more often than we should?).  I can't imagine letting her stay up that extra half hour caused the tantrum.  I was just expressing to my fellow peers a difficult morning.

Momee

[momee]

Looks like we have a cross posting, thanks for the added reply above.  It's fine. 

 

We may have some very different discipline styles anyway...

"The only solution *after* the feelings get out of hand is full empathy (with any necessary boundaries remaining intact), making amends, and trying to approach things differently next time. "

 

I don't really know what you mean by this.  ...full empathy when she throws a fit over one math problem...

Maybe it would help if you explain what that looks like?

 

I was calm, I asked her to take steps to self calm.  I escorted her to a safe place she could regroup.  She ignored my command and was disciplined.  Explaining the math problem again was impossible before.  She was irate and not listening.

[momee]

"Maybe try a "time-in"? Instead of sending her away to calm herself, hug her and let her vent her frustration safely with you. Empathize with her frustration so she can get past it."

 

I will try this.  So you're saying when she is slamming a pencil, knocking a chair down, draw her to myself and attempt to comfort?  I'm hesitant and fearful (!) but willing to try it.

[Catwoman]

There's a problem with a sinful little spoiled girl who wants to throw a fit instead of do math. I readily admit there is also a bit of a problem because there's also a sinful mom who is exasperated and lacking skills to handle the immediacy of the moment with enough self control and solid grounding herself in coping skills under such conditions

She's only 6.

 

Maybe if you stop viewing her as sinful and spoiled, it might help a bit.

 

She is a little kid and she gets frustrated. You do all the right things to calm her (and yourself) down, but it doesn't work. We have all been there.

 

I know this isn't going to help, but if you keep doing the right things and try not to get so upset that you have to spank her, she will eventually calm down and get over it. Your stress makes her more stressed and then her stress makes you even more stressed, and pretty soon both of you are feeling a little out of control. It's hard to calm down once you get into that cycle.

 

One possible way to get her out of that loop is to give her a little snack with some protein in it. It doesn't always work, but it just might! If nothing else, it will get her away from her desk and into a different room of the house for a few minutes and might be enough to relax her (and you!)

 

Also, if she got all but one of the problems correct, perhaps you need to lighten up a bit and simply explain to her what she did wrong on the incorrect problem and just let it go.

[myfunnybunch]

There's a problem with a sinful little spoiled girl who wants to throw a fit instead of do math.  

 

I wonder if it might help to just think of it this way, in the moment: She's a little girl. (Not challenging your overall statement, just talking about what a very practical mind shift can do when dealing with behavior in the moment.) 

 

She doesn't WANT to throw a fit, truly she doesn't. It's exhausting and overwhelming. The feelings are just so big that, at 6, they overwhelm self-control. I had more than one kid tell me, after a doozy of a tantrum, that they wanted to stop but couldn't.

 

Having my kids tell me that was the best starting place I could have gotten. It completely shifted my perspective. Instead of reacting, I started problem-solving. "I can see you're upset. I know you don't want to get more upset. What do you need right now?"

 

Then I helped identify the feeling behind the upset. Frustration? Tiredness? Perfectionism and hating to make a mistake?

 

Then we'd go from there. Frustration needs a short break. Tiredness needs a little rest. Perfectionism needs a hug and a lot of ongoing talk about making and correcting mistakes. And so on. Teaching children to identify what they need when they're overwhelmed will last them a lifetime. :)

 

"What do you need right now?" has headed off more tantrums than I can count. Often just because they have to stop and think about it. And if the answer is, as it often is, a wailed, "I don't know," a hug and a story (when little, a short chit-chat about nothing much now) usually brings them back to equilibrium.

 

:grouphug: Hang in there. Often, as you know, these things are cyclical. She's probably going through a physical or emotional or cognitive growth spurt, and everything seems a little off kilter during those times. It won't last forever.

 

Cat

[momee]

Very, very helpful and very well said.  Thanks ever so much.

 

And by sinful I mean she is a sinner, like all of us (saying realizing some don't believe this).  I'm acknowledging she wants what she wants, that she lacks self control to verbalize it, etc.

 

I get it.  Wrong choice of words on my part.  I view her as beautiful and do understand she is only 6.  But when this type thing happens regularly, day in, day out, multiple! times a day, it gets exasperating and there must be something else than refocusing her attention with a snack or change of environment.

 

If it were occasional, I wouldn't be posting.  I'll definitely take your suggestion and attempt to look at the problem in a different manner.  I thought I -WAS- trying to give her a moment and help her readjust.  I know I could do better.

 

Edited to add this is comforting...

" :grouphug: Hang in there. Often, as you know, these things are cyclical. She's probably going through a physical or emotional or cognitive growth spurt, and everything seems a little off kilter during those times. It won't last forever."

I know, I really do.  

[Catwoman]

Very, very helpful and very well said. Thanks ever so much.

 

And by sinful I mean she is a sinner, like all of us, acknowledging she wants what she wants, lacks self control to verbalize it, etc.

I get it. Wrong choice of words on my part. I view her as beautiful but when this type thing happens regularly, day in, day out, multiple! times a day, it gets exasperating.

 

If it were occasional, I wouldn't be posting. I'll take your suggestion and attempt to look at the problem in a different manner. I thought I was trying to give her a moment and help her readjust. I could do better.

Thanks for clarifying about the sinner thing. :)

 

Don't beat yourself up over things like this. Frankly, the way you handled the situation was just fine -- but not for your dd at that particular moment. No solution works all the time.

 

The biggest thing to remember is that in the overall scheme of things, one math problem is not a big deal.

[momee]

But her handling problems like this (throwing, slamming, screaming, whatever) sure does seem like a big deal when it's repeated behavior.  

 

Maybe a question for my dh or pediatrician, or counselor :)lol is when do I concern myself that it isn't just a phase?

 

Adding the spoiled thing...that comes into play because I feel I've tried so many other methods, warning, coaxing, ignoring, appeasing, whatever, just so the tantrum doesn't happen that I am exacerbating the problem.  FYI - google definition I found of spoiled..."harm the character of (a child) by being too lenient or indulgent."

 

DH said spank her.  I've not complied with his suggestion because I HATE spanking.

I did spank her. 

 

Within 20 minutes she is calm, apologetic, recognizing and apologizing for her behavior and for the rest of the morning has been quick to obey, pleasant and respectful.  Picked up the pencil, did that and three other worksheets with no issues whatsoever.  

 

(adding because I can only imagine what the world can picture when I say I spanked her) I spanked her 3 swats.  When I say I grabbed her I did so by the arm because I had told her to come get a spanking, which of course she didn't do.

[Tanaqui]

Said 6yo begins to fuss that she is just stupid, slams pencil.  You calmly! say the problem is wrong.  You are not stupid, please redo it. (You know a bigger tantrum is coming because you've done this three times this week already).

Said 6yo begins to throw book, knock chair down and cry loudly.

 

You say calmly! you are tired and need a rest.  I shouldn't have let you stay up until 9 and watch frozen with me cuddled up on the couch because mommy felt like you were an awful spawn yesterday and wanted to make up for her nasty heart toward you - oh wait  - I didn't say all that just felt like saying it

So I actually said go sit still on my bed (right off the school room) and rest.  You may come back when calm.  She throws even bigger fit, I go down for a drink of water so I don't lose it, come back up, she's playing with my glasses on the floor.

 

I grab her, spank her, she cries 5 minutes, calms down, and all of a sudden she is an obedient princess.

I however, am still shaking internally and feeling like I've done nothing right in 20 years of parenting.

 

 

Oh, boy. I've been there. You've been there. We've all been there, and anybody who says otherwise is lying.

 

It's hard, but I try to remember to put myself in their shoes. If I was frustrated and upset, would telling me "You need to calm down" work? No, it'd just irritate the heck outta me. So why do I think it'll work on the kids? It might be absolutely true that the kiddo is tired and needs a nap, but to say it aloud sounds like "your feelings don't really count, because you're just being ridiculous".

 

And if I do send them to their room to calm down, and they don't go to their room but DO calm down in the living room - well, that was the ultimate goal, right? To find a calming down solution that works for them? It's not about me, it's about them.

 

Obviously we have two different worldviews here, because I don't think obedience is something to rate very highly, so some of what I'm saying might not be terribly relevant to you, but try to remember when you were a kid. I bet you threw tantrums now and again, right? And you still get angry and frustrated now as an adult, and sometimes have trouble controlling your reactions when you do. When you're angry and frustrated and you yell at or spank your kid after having *tried* to calm yourself down, is that something you wanted to do? I don't think so, or you wouldn't be asking for help.

 

When she's angry and frustrated and she thought she did everything but all of a sudden you're giving her a new problem to do (or do over, rather) and she screams at you and calls herself stupid, do you think this is what she wants to be doing? She's not "sinful" or "spoiled" - she's just young and upset. I'm new to homeschooling, but boy, am I not new to math struggles and this particular type of issue. One of the two kiddos has this in spades. It's slowly getting better as she gets older. It might seem counterproductive to somebody with an "obedience" mindset, but for us, the one thing that really works, that really, *really* works, is to drop the subject. If she makes a careless error on a math sheet, and gets upset when you point it out, I'd honesty just drop it. "I didn't say you're stupid, honey, anybody can make a silly mistake like this. It's only one mistake, so let's go have our cookie/read our book/move on." Then, when she's calm, you can bring it up again, as in "By the way, we really do want to fix this. You added up 9 and 7 and got 15. If you can just rework that one little thing, we can put this in your homework folder (obviously this is the script we used before this year) and forget about it". Because we haven't been harping on it, and it isn't right after the terrible news that she did it wrong, she can be calm about it and handle her mistakes.

 

When we try to discipline away tantrums, and frustration, and bad moods, for *us* that just gives us worse effects in the long run, because we aren't helping her learn to be responsible for her own actions and we aren't addressing the root causes of the misbehavior. That might well be the case with your kid as well.

 

But, of course, you've been raising kids a lot longer than I have. I was barely in my double digits 20 years ago! If you don't really want advice, just wanted to vent, that's fine too.

 

[myfunnybunch]

I was calm, I asked her to take steps to self calm.  I escorted her to a safe place she could regroup.  She ignored my command and was disciplined.  Explaining the math problem again was impossible before.  She was irate and not listening.

 

What you did from an adult perspective was super reasonable. :)

 

From the perspective of a kid who's feeling out of control and trying to regain control, she might have struggled with the lack of autonomy. Being told she was tired instead of asked how she's feeling, being escorted to a calming place instead of choosing her own calming strategy. (Not criticizing you, because what you did was reasonable and probably would have worked with a different situation or personality.) But for some children, losing their own self-control is scary and overwhelming in itself, so they continue to react.

 

I have one child, particularly, who values self-control and autonomy highly. It is a great strength in his character. And it is a SUPER challenging trait to parent.

 

Teaching self-calming and self-control in problem-solving is really hard because it requires a shift in thinking in which we become partners in teaching the child to self-control. It takes longer. it's a lot more mental and emotional work for us. But in the long run, it's worth the effort.

 

Cat, who learned is still learning this the hard way, or why can I recognize this when it's other people's kids and not my own (And I think I've got an apology to make to my son about this morning.)

 

[Catwoman]

But her handling problems like this (throwing, slamming, screaming, whatever) sure does seem like a big deal when it's repeated behavior.

 

Maybe a question for my dh or pediatrician, lol is when do I concern myself that it isn't just a phase?

Again, she is only 6. I am not entirely sure you aren't expecting too much of her.

 

What does she say after she calms down? Have you asked her what she was feeling when she was having the tantrum?

 

I suspect you may need to lighten up on this child, rather than tighten the reins.

[Joker]

My oldest was like this for a while and she grew out of it. She wanted control and so did I. The best thing I did was give up some of it. If it makes it worse to ask her to leave the room and calm down, then you leave the room and see if she calms down. In your example it seems she did but you were still upset that she didn't go to a different room to do so. I learned to give myself time outs instead of dd so we could both calm down. You might also try doing corrections at a different time of day if they set her off. I always did them first thing the next morning (if I felt they had to be done). If dd knew the material but made a silly mistake, I would point it out and we would move on. She's now in an IB program in a public high school and doing great, so it didn't harm her not fixing all of her mistakes.

[Tanaqui]

But her handling problems like this (throwing, slamming, screaming, whatever) sure does seem like a big deal when it's repeated behavior.  

 

Maybe a question for my dh or pediatrician, lol is when do I concern myself that it isn't just a phase?

 

 

Weeeeelll....

 

You don't want to hear this one, but I'll say it anyway.

 

I'm on the spectrum, and I was throwing things, and slamming doors, and screaming well into my teen years. And now I don't do any of those things. I outgrew it. We all grow and change as we get older. My parents didn't have any effective strategy for this when I was young, and especially not after my father died, but I outgrew it anyway.

 

Your kid is probably absolutely normal, unlike me :) Even if you sat down and twiddled your thumbs and did very little to help her manage her frustration, she still would probably not be doing it in another six or seven years. There are probably ways to help her learn better faster. I'm not entirely certain any discipline method that involves spanking is the best bet.

 

And, as somebody else put it, kids go through physical changes. Their behavior gets worse when they are getting their grown-up teeth, and when they are going through a growth spurt, and when they enter puberty, and when they're working on learning a lot. Learning and growing is hard work, and it takes a lot of energy, and it doesn't leave much energy left for calmness and self-control.

 

[momee]

This is all very, very helpful.  I am reading and reading and while I'd love to respond to each and every comment I will simply respond by saying this is, again, very helpful.

 

It's nice to know I'm not being judged, I'm not alone, and I'm not going to battle this with her forever.

I know that, it is just nice to read it.

 

Her answer to this

"What does she say after she calms down? Have you asked her what she was feeling when she was having the tantrum?"

 

I didn't want to do the work.  I asked what can I do next time, she said help me calm down. 

Knew that.  I'm working on it, little one :)

[hornblower]

I'm coming from a completely different parenting perspective so I'm leaving tons off the table but I wanted to offer two concrete suggestions that anyone with any worldview might be able to use:

1) do not correct as you go along.

Either you correct in the evening or perhaps correct together the following morning. Play around with this but the key is not focus on the mistakes.  Maybe don't even correct at all. This is a huge issue in our home with one child who has intense perfectionist issues & would do a page of 99 problems correctly but drop a decimal on 1 and THAT one would lead to a huge raging tantrum. It took a lot of work to learn to focus on the things going right.

 

Things going wrong are info for YOU, the teacher, to note so you can re-teach (probably the next day. Or a few days from now. Eventually, when the child matures a bit, can you re-teach the same day or in that moment)
The mistakes are for YOU to learn from now, to figure out what she needs.

Does she not understand it? If so, what different way can you can you re-teach it?
Or is she just distracted? How can the environment be made better for longer concentration?

Is she tired? Does she need to build stamina to work 10 min in a row? Then 11 min?  Keep an eye on the clock & consider ending the lesson when the time is up, not when she's finished the work. Working too long leads to frustration, fatigue, brain hurt..... crying & acting out.
Or is she bored? If she actually does understand it, doing tons of repetition is tedious & boring & perhaps that's why she's making mistakes. Don't assign the whole worksheet if it's just busy work. Let her go play.

Also meditate on the issue of teaching everything to mastery vs. How important is it for kids to learn that it's ok to make mistakes?

2) this came up on another thread - if a kid has made a mistake & you think this is a small thing & you can just push through, don't say "just fix it and redo it". Instead, sit down quickly either with a white board or just a piece of paper, & say "hey, I'm going to do it & you copy it out, ok?" And YOU work the problem, talking it over as you go and watch her copying it out. Ask her if she understands it. If she's still alert & not over tired, you can say "should we do another one together or do you want to try one on your own?"  
Asking for too much independent work from these littles (& highly sensitive big kids too) is a big problem. They really like to work with someone.
I know that #2 sounds like a lot of work but really, it doesn't take any more time than dealing with huge tantrums & tears & the emotional roller coaster of that. In fact, it usually takes much less time ...

hope this helps a bit.

[AK_Mom4]

OP - hang in there!  It is tough - especially if there is a bit of perfectionism going on that makes it hard to accept correction.  I've bled in the trenches with DD13 and correction.

 

What worked for us (just another trick in the tool bag!) was "Find the Wrong One".  I would say "there are two problems wrong in this row.  Go find them."  When she found and fixed them, she got a point for each problem.  Asking for help earned her one point. Perfect papers were worth 5 points.  5 points or more meant the very next thing we did was play a game together. Points carried over from day to day, so if she only got three today, tomorrow she earned two and got her game.  Game Time with Mom (and usually an older sib would join in) was her incentive.  Five minutes dedicated to playing Go Fish was cheap compared to 30 lost to bad attitude and crying.  We didn't have to do this forever, but it got us past this stage alive.

 

(yes - she got a point for asking for help.  She was constantly comparing herself to the older kids and getting frustrated when she couldn't do it all perfectly the first time.  Rewarding asking instead of tantruming helped us get where we wanted to go)

 

[myfunnybunch]

And by sinful I mean she is a sinner, like all of us (saying realizing some don't believe this).  I'm acknowledging she wants what she wants, that she lacks self control to verbalize it, etc.

 

I get it.  Wrong choice of words on my part.  I view her as beautiful and do understand she is only 6.

 

:grouphug: I knew that. It comes through so clearly in your posts, how much you love your little girl and want things to go smoothly for her.

 

I just meant that at some point I realized that removing all adjectives that were floating around my head helped me tremendously, because I was awfully frustrated and some of them weren't very nice. :laugh: 

 

Cat

[momee]

Thanks, Cat.  Such words of grace for this tired, tired mom.

Parenting is just plain hard sometimes.

[fairfarmhand]

1. I have a compliant personality who doesn't process anger physically. It helps me to remember that many, many normal children throw tantrums, scream and physically fall apart when angry. Not absolutely 100% every day in many families, but not out of the realm of perfectly normal behavior either. My dd and my husband feel things to a much greater extent than me or some of my other kids. Irritation in them goes from annoyance to fury in 3 seconds. Their highs are high, their lows are low. Their anger and frustration is enormous. So your dd's feeling are HUGE to her. Don't discount them by telling her to calm down. An approach of "Hey, I know this feels really bad right now. I promise it's okay. We'll figure out the math together. "

 

2. Keep in mind that children grow in different aspects at different rates. A child can be very responsible and seem mature, but they way that they process feelings can still be very immature. (my 16 yo dd is a great case in point. Very responsible in general, especially when she is personally invested in something. However, her emotions get the best of her quite often. She was academically advanced, but lacked the maturity to tackle hard tasks that took time to master. For instance, for ages she avoided chapter books because, while she could understand them all, she hated the fact that it took too long to get to the ending.) So your dd could be physically 6 yo, academically 8 yo  but in her emotional development be around 4 years old. This realization helped me understand that my child was not out to irritate me or act like a baby. She was just dealing with huge feelings that she didn't know how to handle.

 

3. Ask your dd about the tantrum later. (Dd, it must feel really bad to fall apart about math so often. I wish I could help you deal with it better. Do you have an idea about how I can help you with that? Would it help if I hugged you or do you need a few minutes alone? )

 

4. Then figure out proactive strategies to avoid tantrums. I know, I know it feels like "giving into the tantrum" to arrange life to avoid them, but remember, she's just six. That's still very young. When a baby's hungry, we feed them. When a toddler needs a nap, we cuddle them and put them to bed. I promise you, she will learn to deal with frustration, but it takes time. Save your sanity and your family relationships by arranging school to avoid this emotional outburst.

 

Bring her onboard to figure out these strategies. "Would it help if we did corrections together? Would it help if we did them on the marker board? Would it help if we tackled them later? I want to help you avoid meltdowns, and we can try this together. If it doesn't work after a couple days, we'll try something else!" Put yourself on your daughter's team in "solving this problem." come alongside her in both school work and in dealing with strong feelings. This helps the child stop feeling like "mom's against me!"

 

I think you may benefit from reading this thread that was started a few days ago. The child in question is a bit older than your girlie, but many of the strategies and thought processes are similar.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/529169-angry-outbursts-in-8-year-old-considering-medication/

[fairfarmhand]

 

This is all very, very helpful.  I am reading and reading and while I'd love to respond to each and every comment I will simply respond by saying this is, again, very helpful.

 

It's nice to know I'm not being judged, I'm not alone, and I'm not going to battle this with her forever.

I know that, it is just nice to read it.

 

Her answer to this

"What does she say after she calms down? Have you asked her what she was feeling when she was having the tantrum?"

 

I didn't want to do the work.  I asked what can I do next time, she said help me calm down. 

Knew that.  I'm working on it, little one :)

 

Ask her what you can DO to help her calm down. "Does it make it worse when I send you away? Would you rather sit and rock in the rocker for a couple minutes?"

[fairfarmhand]

By the way. Some kids are just HARD! It was a GREAT day at my house, when I realized that my dd will probably NEVER be an easy kid. I was able to accept her for who she was and stop comparing her to sibilings and other people's kids.

[Incognito]

There's another thread on here about "strong willed child or dreamer" (the book).  You might want to look at it and see if the book describes your DD and find solace/ help in it.

 

[LibraryLover]

At 6, math doesn't have to be worksheet oriented, nor are some 6 yr olds ready for workbooks. Can you use manipulatives, one on one correspondence work (every plate gets a fork, knife and glass " etc.). What about simple calculations at stores? Whiteboard? Keep simple pie or bar graphs you make together. Ex- how many people in our family have pets? How many children are in the families of our friends? Hang them on a wall. Are you sure your expectations are reasonable? Does everything have to be perfect?

 

6 is an age when many kids are still rather dreamy. It's the nature of the child. This age also wants real work, and to be with you as you do it. Cooking, baking, washing dishes in the sink etc. they also need time to ply and be creative. Making play dough together is mat and science for a little one. Trying saying yes more, try not to focus on minor issues. I would also not spank since you said you don't want to.

[Tiramisu]

I have three older children, I should know this.  

 

Seasons pass...it will improve...it is worth it.

 

OH MY GOODNESS.  I feel like I am disciplining this kid every half hour!

:sad:

 

This little one might be just be different than your others in terms of temperament. 

 

I think sometimes it's harder to deal with a kid who has a different temperament than the kids you've already had experience with. The same discipline techniques don't work and you can really start to question yourself. It's easy to think they're being "bad" and you have to put some effort into figuring out how they tick to get beyond that. I think it's the kids who are a little different who can help you become a better parent and a more compassionate person.

[fairfarmhand]

This little one might be just be different than your others in terms of temperament. 

 

I think sometimes it's harder to deal with a kid who has a different temperament than the kids you've already had experience with. The same discipline techniques don't work and you can really start to question yourself. It's easy to think they're being "bad" and you have to put some effort into figuring out how they tick to get beyond that. I think it's the kids who are a little different who can help you become a better parent and a more compassionate person.

yup.

 

My oldest is my tricky one.

 

On the other hand, the other kids seem like a breeze comparatively.

 

But she has made me such a  better parent and a better person too!

[Jaybee]

I'm not going to address the main question. But I just realized you were asking some questions about your new home, and it clicked that your little one may be acting out some related to feeling some insecurities about either an upcoming move or one that has just taken place. So when you lay down the law, she relaxes a little knowing that not everything is changing. Just a little speculating that may or may not apply.

[Doodlebug]

I'm learning so much from reading threads like this one lately.  Thank you to all who have been brave enough to ask the questions, and to those who have responded.  

 

I have a prickly 8 year old boy, and go through seasons of building a callousness to his surliness.  

 

Just sitting with him has helped his attitude a great deal this week.  And today, when he made a rude comment despite loving patience on my part, it was a lot easier to say, "Son, I'm here to help, but I will leave if you continue to be rude."  He accepted that, and we were able to work on.

 

Sorry, OP for sharing... but I'm really thankful for your question and the responses!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[katilac]

I wouldn't make her redo work when she only had one problem wrong - my general rule was to take a closer look at anything under 90%, or if they got several of the same type of problem wrong. They paid more attention if they knew careless errors would result in redoing some problems, but requiring do-overs when they earned a really good grade would have frustrated them. 

 

At that age, I could usually tell at a glance what they did wrong, and I would just say, "You added here instead of subtracting" or whatever. If they were hovering around the 90% one way or the other, sometimes we would just sit and look at the problems to make sure they understood (rather than making them rework them on paper). 

 

And my kids were pretty useless at that age when they were hungry or tired, lol, so I definitely lowered my expectations when they weren't in top form. Now that they're older, they can do a much better job of powering through in those situations, but definitely not at 6. 

[bolt.]

 

 

Just respectfully asking because things can easily be misinterpreted online...but did you mean to have a hint of sarcasm by adding the eh? at the end of your message or is that just a regional thing?  I would hope the prior but should just let you know it could read negatively.

Sorry, no negativity intended. I meant is as an expression of, "I suppose we both know that already."

 

I appreciate the advice, but I don't think there's a problem with her mathematical understanding. 

You said that she made an error on a math problem. That means that the question exceeded her ability to answer it correctly. If she had no problem answering the question, she would have arrived at the correct answer.

 

There's a problem with a sinful little spoiled girl who wants to throw a fit instead of do math.

Again, I was not aware that she was having overwhelming feelings *before* she began the math work. Work avoidance is a different issue -- though, certainly not a sin. If work avoidance is a sin, I'm in quite some trouble.

 

Honestly, what makes you imagine that she "wanted" to "throw a fit"? Please actually consider the evidence of your situation and the character of your child.

 

Did she "want" this to happen?

 

Did she seem at all happy during the "fit"?

 

Is she that deceptive that while, internally enjoying herself completely, she can cry, wail, and put on a completely convincing front of actually being sad, angry, disappointed or otherwise genuinely very upset? Are you sure that's your child?

 

Or is it possible that she looks upset because she actually IS upset, because something upsetting happened to her? Because her world is small and her feelings are intense, and she's just getting used to the skills she needs to handle those feelings?

 

 

I readily admit there is also a bit of a problem because there's also a sinful mom who is exasperated and lacking skills to handle the immediacy of the moment with enough self control and solid grounding herself in coping skills under such conditions, thus the reason for the vent/post/advice request.

I don't think that's a sin either. If it is, I'm in much bigger trouble than I thought!

 

 

I wish to emphasize that the wrong problem was only 1 wrong problem.  She got the rest right.  It didn't require another reteaching lesson, it required her taking a look at it and redo it

If you were satisfied with her level of attainment of this skill...

 

Why then did the sheet have to be perfected? There is a logical error in this method of student assessment.

of which she clearly didn't want to do for whatever, inconsequential reason.

The fact that your child was completely overwhelmed with a sudden feeling of stupidity and failure is *NOT* inconsequential. It's not the end of the world (I always say that 6 year olds have big feelings over small things) but that is what it felt like inside of her, at the moment that it happened... and she told you because it felt *terrible*, and she wanted your help.

 

 

 

I so appreciate your taking the time for a response though, and normally I would totally agree that grace and reteaching would be the appropriate response (I have done that repeatedly under different circumstances with a great outcome).

A math error does not require grace. You are mixing theological language into a situation that only requires practical relationship skills.

 

If you want her to do math better, your only way to achieve that is to teach her again. If you are satisfied with her skill level, move on.

 

Letting her stay up for half an hour extra is duly noted as a mistake, which is why I mentioned it :)  I actually was just feeling guilty for that and included it because I'm sure guilt comes into play with all of us when under a difficult parenting situation (don't we all blame ourselves more often than we should?).

Does she regularly stay up until 8:30? Perhaps she needs more sleep in total on a daily basis. Does she get 11-12 hours, as is recommended for her age?

 

Do you regularly feel guilty over small daily misjudgements? I don't think you have a reason to feel that way, but just acknowledging your choices as a contributing factor would help you not hold your small child entirely responsible for her reactions to her circumstances. Blame is a pretty harsh thing to be assigning to either one of you. All that is happening is two people behaving according to normal human nature.

 

I can't imagine letting her stay up that extra half hour caused the tantrum.

I imagine fatigue (especially if it is ongoing) plus moods, temperament, feeling sick or well, and a whole host of psychological and relational factors contributed to her feelings being stronger than her self-control today. It's probably been a difficult morning for her too.

 

[bolt.]

Looks like we have a cross posting, thanks for the added reply above.  It's fine. 

 

We may have some very different discipline styles anyway...

"The only solution *after* the feelings get out of hand is full empathy (with any necessary boundaries remaining intact), making amends, and trying to approach things differently next time. "

 

I don't really know what you mean by this.  ...full empathy when she throws a fit over one math problem...

Maybe it would help if you explain what that looks like?

 

I was calm, I asked her to take steps to self calm.  I escorted her to a safe place she could regroup.  She ignored my command and was disciplined.  Explaining the math problem again was impossible before.  She was irate and not listening.

When she has overwhelming feelings of failure and stupidity, regardless of the cause of those feelings, or whether they are proportional to the situations -- she needs your empathy. Without empathy, she will have a much harder time calming down and recognizing that feelings pass, and that they are often inaccurate. If you want her to self-calm (eventually) an apprenticeship in how to accomplish that in the context of your loving support is good training. Expecting her to figure it out on her own when she becomes upset is going to be a much less efficient learning curve. (And adding the factor that, "If I don't figure it out quickly, it will probably get to a point where my mom will hit me." -- seriously, that's not going to help settle her down. That's SO not working towards your objective of soothing her.)

 

Empathy looks like a hug, a back rub, a verbal acknowledgement that it's upsetting when xyz happens, an offer of a glass of water, asking if you can do anything to help, reassurance that her feelings will pass soon and she can depend on you for comfort until they do pass...

 

You seem to view her tears as the problem.

 

I view her tears as an indication that a problem has occurred -- probably a minor one, because it's easy to burst into tears when you are small, but *if* there is a problem that matters, it's far more productive to focus on it not happening again, rather than imagining that if/when it happens again, the waterworks will not make a similar appearance.

 

I also don't view the tears or howling or whatever as a problem because they are just a loud expression of a passing feeling. Once the feeling has passed, everything will be fine. You can teach after the tears, and you can give commands after the tears -- how is she supposed to process any of that while she is completely overwhelmed? Just give it 20-40 minutes, and you'll be able to communicate anything you like.

[dirty ethel rackham]

You have received great advice.  One thing I want to add is to rethink the word discipline.  For many people, to discipline means to punish.  Punishment is only one tool in the toolbox and not the most effective one at that.  The root of the word comes from the word meaning "to teach."  When you are giving your child a hug instead of a spanking, you are not letting them get away with something, but using another tool in the toolbox to help her learn how to handle the big, overwhelming feelings. 

[Jennifer132]

I started a very similar thread the other day, so I can relate. For what it's worth, I did go see my pediatrician and he said my dd's behavior was within normal ranges--that some kids are difficult and need more help than others coping with frustration. He even said his son was very similar. That at least made me feel a little better, because, if you haven't had a difficult child before, you tend to question whether it's "normal" or not to behave this way. We are looking into cognitive behavioral therapy/family therapy to help my dd learn better ways of self-soothing and self-regulation, and for us as parents to learn better how to respond to her outbursts.

[LucyStoner]

Why is getting one problem on a sheet incorrect really a problem? No one is perfect. Add the missed problem to a future assignment. She'll probably get it right. It sounds like you may be putting entirely too much pressure on yourself and her.

 

I can't think of a single math class I have taken where I ever got every single problem correct. FWIW, I got high grades in math through college. Making her correct every little error at age 6 seems over the top. When, in my moments of idiocy, I sat over my 5 year old (just shy of 6) and tried to correct every letter he forms in his printing book, he grew sullen and self critical and defiant. When I back the heck off, let him do the whole sheet without saying anything and then review it, I see he's done really well on the whole. More importantly, he is noticeably more confident and working harder to do it the way he's been shown to do it in the book. Most importantly of all, he's happy and enjoying the work.

 

We parents can trigger negative reactions and bad behavior in our children. As someone who was long prone to perfectionism, I have to watch myself. There's no need for me to saddle my sons with all that.

[Catwoman]

The biggest challenge right now is keeping mommy calm and problem solving, even when she is pushing every button.

 

I'll get back to you on that when it's no longer an issue :o

I think you have hit on where the primary focus needs to be -- and that is for Mom to figure out how to stay calm. It can be very difficult, but if Mom can't keep it together, why should a 6yo be expected to do so?

 

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do, though!

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, when I struggled with understanding my dd, I read the Ramona Quimby books. It helps me remember that there is SO much going on in the head of a seemingly bratty child. I need to as a mom, go deeper and try to understand her so that I can help her make better choices and wind things down before she works up a full head of steam.

 

Remember Ramona's mom would tell her, "Don't make a Great Big Noisy Fuss." I've seen a lot of Great Big Noisy Fusses at my house too.

[Pronghorn]

One thing to remember is that your child may be unable to think rationally (e.g. obey) once her meltdown has started. I talk to my daughter about her baby brain and big-kid brain. During a meltdown, the big-kid brain goes offline and the baby brain is what you are dealing with. So, don't think you have to fix or correct or discipline at all during the meltdown. Just wait for it to end. If hugging helps, try that. If lap-sitting helps, try that. Or just stay nearby and try to look unperturbed. That will help your daughter realize that all is okay and come back into the big-kid brain.

 

Once the meltdown is over, I'd say cuddle your child and talk in a non-blaming way about what happened and what your child must have been feeling/thinking to go into such a big fit.

 

I would also suggest you experiment with how to do corrections, if you feel they are important enough to risk all the drama. For example, you could hold your kid on your lap and look at the paper together. And you could use a playful tone, if that sort of thing works for your child. E.g. "There is just one mistake, only one. Can you guess which line it is on? That's not it, try again. Okay you're getting warmer....."

 

Also, remember that there are years and years left to get your child on track with math. I'd give the emotional stuff more priority at six. And you could also change curricula -- we used Miquon math for a non-threatening discovery approach. I told my daughter an occasional mistake didn't matter, that we just had to look for the pattern. And now, years later, she is fine at math! And now she corrects her mistakes without any big fuss. Maturity is a great fixer of problems!

[Pronghorn]

If you want to discipline, you could try to teach reparations after the meltdown is over. I did this with my daughter, and she learned some good life skills. I might tell her that the meltdown really wore me out, so I would like her to help me set the table (or something extra) since I was so worn out. Or I would ask her to do something nice for me to help me feel better from all the noise. She could make a card or draw a picture or whatever she wanted. That got her understanding that the meltdowns were an inconvenience to others and that she could help smooth things over once they were over. If she had a meltdown in a class at coop, I would have her make a card for the teacher the next time to set things on a better footing in case there were bad feelings.

[zoobie]

BTW, when I struggled with understanding my dd, I read the Ramona Quimby books. It helps me remember that there is SO much going on in the head of a seemingly bratty child. I need to as a mom, go deeper and try to understand her so that I can help her make better choices and wind things down before she works up a full head of steam.

 

Remember Ramona's mom would tell her, "Don't make a Great Big Noisy Fuss." I've seen a lot of Great Big Noisy Fusses at my house too.

Such a good idea! I liked, but that wasn't enough. :)

 

OP, another one chiming in that it's hard to be six and have Big Feelings. My oldest was super challenging from about 5.5 to 7, then she went back to her usual regularly challenging yet fun self. We worked on expressing yourself calmly and quietly by me or DH trying to empathize and offer wording suggestions. We worked on excusing yourself to regroup and chill (the true purpose of "time outs" as a disciplinary tool not a punishment). We worked on how it's okay to be angry and frustrated but not destroy property (need to find a way to channel that energy that works for your DD). And so forth and so on. You're not going to be able to spank away a challenging personality, and you will create resentment and a divide. The child's temperament is largely there to stay--you have to teach her how to wrangle her own feelings. When she's a teen, she will be too old to spank, and she will have the same Big Feelings. Don't look at this as a failure in her. It's just who she is. Appreciate the positive aspects of her personality. She will never be a doormat! Her stubbornness = perseverance. Etc. :)

 

I also correct at night and only go over things where they have missed the concept. At 6, manipulatives are great. My kids did primary Montessori through 6, and I love their hands on approach. They also don't correct anything at that age. The teacher reviews the work to make sure they understand the concept and expect a few errors in calculation. If they miss more than a certain amount, the teacher reviews the lesson with the child, not mentioning the errors. It's just a review. That worked well for my oldest and sensitive younger brother. (Two more not yet to that point!)

 

The Explosive Child was worthwhile reading for me. It helped me think about whether certain "rules" were worth enforcing. I am not a passive or permissive parent at all, but I am not a punitive one. Things that hurt or disrespect people or property are worth enforcing. Many others simply are not. I also don't believe in strict obedience. I don't believe it teaches problem solving or pretty much anything necessary in our location or life situation. I hope my children don't grow up to be in situations where they need to be obedient. Anyway, I'm with your DD in not coming for a spanking. I wouldn't come for one either. ;)

 

Good luck!

[Pronghorn]

Here is another idea. Instead of having your daughter do her math, have her stuffed animals do it, with her help. Have another stuffed animal be the teacher. Make sure she has a funny voice and manner. Then give a playful twist to the whole thing through the interactions of all these characters.

 

This might not work if you are not a naturally playful mom. But otherwise, it could cut the tension and be a teaching tool all at the same time.

[bolt.]

I actually think that kids "get" a whole set of new feelings around 6 years old -- feelings like embarrassed, self-conscious, self-doubt, relationship-doubt, true worry, hope/hopeless, resentful, powerful/less -- etc.

 

I think they are all news to 6 year olds, who spent the last years getting a handle on more simple feelings. (Frustrated, happy, relationship-warm, disappointed, confused, tired, etc.) As such, I think the new feelings kind of ambush them, and they need a while for their coping skills to catch up to the unfamiliarity and intensity.

 

So, big feelings over small things has been the norm for both of mine from 5.5 ish to 7.5 ish. It helped me to wonder if any of the 'new feelings' might have played into a situation that had gotten out of hand -- rather than assuming it was a 'didn't get what she wanted' reaction (disappointment).

[Clear Creek]

Some things that have helped at my house:

 

- During a calm moment, have the child find a spot to go when they need to calm down. It could be momma's lap, a beanbag chair, a recliner with a stuffed animal and a favorite book...anything that they find calming. Practice having Really Big Feelings and going to the spot to spend some time calming down. Don't make it a time-out or punishment, just a safe place where the child can choose to go when she is overwhelmed with Really Big Feelings. It works best when the child chooses to go there; otherwise it turns into a punishment. I would offer it as a suggestion to my kids when I saw that they needed it, but I never told them to go there.

 

- During a calm moment, practice expressing upset feelings verbally instead of physically (hitting, throwing things, etc.). Once my kids had the words to express their feelings, I could tell them to use words to tell me what the problem is so that we can fix it the moment I suspected pencils were going to go flying and a child was going to fling herself on the floor dramatically.

 

- Distract, distract, distract. Six-year-olds are just big toddlers.

 

- Break up difficult subjects. If a worksheet needs to be fixed or is even just overly long, do a read-aloud or handwriting or a game and then come back to it.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

- Distract, distract, distract. Six-year-olds are just big toddlers.

 

They're even teething like toddlers. Remember when you got your wisdom teeth in? Normal grown-up teeth don't hurt quite as much because the baby teeth are already in, but there's a lot more of them. You'd be cranky too!