Angry outbursts in 8 year old, considering medication

[Jennifer132]

Without going into a lot of detail, I wanted to ask for advice from those go have btdt. I have an 8 year old girl who 50% of the time is quite lovely and pleasant to be around. We have no problems with her with friends or outside the home. When she is in a good mood, she is helpful, kind and thoughful. The other 50% of the time we have a lot of angry outbursts/tantrums. She smacks herself in the head and smacks the baby gate closed, yells, slams doors and stomps. She says things she doesn't mean and later apologizes. In my experience,this is beyond normal childhood anger. This has worsened in the last 10 months. We have tried diet changes and supplements and did have some success, but it wasn't lasting.

 

I'm seeing her ped tomorrow and plan to ask for a referral to a psychologist/psychiatrist. I'm considering trying out some kind of medication because I don't feel like we are making headway with behavioral methods (time outs, loss of privileges, talking things out, etc) and the diet and supplements are not helping long term. I was just wondering if anyone else has been there with a child her age, and what medicine is considered the most effective in treating the excessive anger without concerning side effects.

 

**please don't reply and tell me I'm wrong for considering medication or encourage me to try another way. I'm only asking for advice from those go have been there. I already feel bad enough considering it. Thanks!

[JumpyTheFrog]

I have similar problems with my 8 year old son. I am currently reading "Raising Your Spirited Child" which is helping me get better at identifying his triggers. Last week I moved us to a much more structured routine in order to reduce the number of triggers. It hasn't cured everything but has given me hope of continued improvement.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I would like to say that consequences that work with average kids have never worked with Tigger. What finally seems to be helping make progress is helping him identify triggers and explicitly teaching coping skills such as how to recognize when he is getting frustrated and needs to calm down before he explodes. His self-awareness and skills in these areas lag behind by a couple year, I think. Stuff that more normal kids seem to figure out on their own he needs taught over and over because his feelings are so extreme: great excitement or everything is terrible and everyone is mean to him.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I know you asked about medication but I have no experience with that. Whether you try it or not, I am guessing there might be some self-soothing and social skills your daughter may need to be taught.

[Lolly]

I have btdt with a child just a little younger. I have tried the medication. (She was put on Depakote and Respridol?) It turned her into a zombie. Dr then wanted to add more medications to combat the side effects, and give her time to adjust. I declined. The stuff she was on was already scary enough. As we were leaving the office, a nurse pulled me aside and made some suggestions. (That probably could have gotten her fired.) First was homeschool her. Second was feed her every 3 hours minimum including protein. I started doing those things and it did get better. It still wasn't great, but it sure was better than before and way better than zombie land. We still had our ups and downs. I pretty much ended up unschooling her. As she got older, she got better. Some probably due to my change in attitude in how I dealt with her. If I didn't have to make a battle, I didn't. Pretty much only over life and death stuff. It made things a little weird for my other three, but... they understood. They knew she was different and had to be under different rules. She is well on her way to being a very successful adult who doesn't do those rages anymore. Well, not often, and when she does it is in private (blogging/journals) instead of physical and verbal.  

 

editing to add: I must say that my experience with this was eye opening. The ease of having her diagnosed and treated was scary. The fact that he got it all wrong is even scarier. I am glad I listened to my instincts instead of the doctor (who was a specialist in these sorts of things). The "counseling" was a joke. Pretty much just medicate and wait and see. Drug into compliance. After seeing the way she reacted to the medications, I decided to love and deal with the child I have (instead of changing her brain (literally) with medication. It wasn't easy, but it has worked.

[busymotherof4]

Is she on any medication for other medical issues? Singulair caused issues with my daughter years ago when she was 7. The problems resolved with therapy (short term) and when she stopped the medication.

[Stratford]

I have a 7 year old with some anger problems.  Significant enough that they were persistently disruptive to our daily life - he has having complete meltdowns at least 4-5 times a day.  Exhausting and frustrating to all involved.  When he wasn't upset, he was darling and loving and quite a pleasure to be around.  We had tried a lot of approaches, very similar to what you've tried.  

 

We spent the first part of this year seeing a child psychologist.  I will be honest and tell you that I had low expectations - I didn't expect the visits to help that much.  To my surprise and delight they did help - quite a bit.  Although he has (and probably always have) a very quick temper, he has learned to modify his behavior and is much more in control now.  Like a PP mentioned, he can recognize and avoid triggers, or at least be more prepared to handle them.  She had us use a workbook at home, called What to Do When Your Temper Flares (it was on Amazon.)  It was helpful for all of us. 

 

I don't think you're wrong for considering medication - you're obviously trying very hard to find something to help!  I would consider seeing a psychologist first before looking into medications.  We were at the same place you were but things have improved enough that meds are not even a consideration at this point.  Hang in there!  I hope everything goes well.  

[Jennifer132]

Is she on any medication for other medical issues? Singulair caused issues with my daughter years ago when she was 7. The problems resolved with therapy (short term) and when she stopped the medication.

No she is not.

[JumpyTheFrog]

We just finished going through "How to Take the Grr Out of Anger." I plan to go through other books in the series. I figure he needs to hear all this info over and over before he can remember to use any of it.

[freesia]

I am looking at your signature and noticing that you have a few children with special needs. My answer is coming from the perspective of a sibling of a child with special needs.

 

You haven't mentioned pursuing counseling for her and maybe your family. (I am absolutely not saying you shouldn't consider medication--just encouraging to consider this option as well). I see that she is listed as "mother's helper". That was my role in our family. A lot of the family focus was on my brother's needs and behavioral challenges. I was the "good girl". But do you know what--I was very, very angry. Until my parents did counseling with my brother, he got away with all sorts of things which were always excused because of his issues. I got away with nothing. His anger was because of his issue. Mine was just plain wrong.

 

I am not saying that this issue is what is playing out in your family, but just letting you know that it can be very, very hard to be a sibling of a special needs kid. Counseling helped my family immeasurably. What would have been even better is if my other brother and I had been included in the counseling.

 

This is close to my heart as I am presently seeing this dynamic work out in a family close to me.

 

If she is your adopted one--please consider a counselor with adoption experience.

 

If she is biologically related to your child with ASD,that is another option to explore.

 

Again--explore the medication option--I do believe in medication when needed. But also make sure you explore any reason that she is so angry.

[Cera]

I have a child taking zoloft to help deal with severe anxiety (9 years old).  It turned out that what looked like out of control anger was actually an out of control fight response to anxiety (fight vs flight response was all fight).

[Jennifer132]

I am looking at your signature and noticing that you have a few children with special needs. My answer is coming from the perspective of a sibling of a child with special needs.

 

You haven't mentioned pursuing counseling for her and maybe your family. (I am absolutely not saying you shouldn't consider medication--just encouraging to consider this option as well). I see that she is listed as "mother's helper". That was my role in our family. A lot of the family focus was on my brother's needs and behavioral challenges. I was the "good girl". But do you know what--I was very, very angry. Until my parents did counseling with my brother, he got away with all sorts of things which were always excused because of his issues. I got away with nothing. His anger was because of his issue. Mine was just plain wrong.

 

I am not saying that this issue is what is playing out in your family, but just letting you know that it can be very, very hard to be a sibling of a special needs kid. Counseling helped my family immeasurably. What would have been even better is if my other brother and I had been included in the counseling.

 

This is close to my heart as I am presently seeing this dynamic work out in a family close to me.

 

If she is your adopted one--please consider a counselor with adoption experience.

 

If she is biologically related to your child with ASD,that is another option to explore.

 

Again--explore the medication option--I do believe in medication when needed. But also make sure you explore any reason that she is so angry.

She is my biological daughter. My oldest with hfa doesn't "get away" with anything, and doesn't have major behavioral issues. He is disciplined the same as she is, and he helps out just as much. I listed her as "mommy's helper" because she likes to help,and she's good at helping. She definitely has a gift there. My son's autism has been helped a lot with diet changes. He has been gluten free, dairy free and dye free for 3 years and most of his issues diapearred with the diet. Long enough that my dd8 probably can't remember how he was before.

 

My adopted dd is 3 and has cerebral palsy. We do have a lot going on, but I have gone over my dd8's behavior in my mind for years (she was always a difficult child, only it has intensified with age) and I don't think it is justified to blame it on her having special needs siblings or my asking too much of her. Her biggest trigger is schoolwork and having to correct wrong answers and being told no. I have never witnessed any resentment toward her siblings. I am sorry you had that experience, but I'm not convinced that's our issue.

 

Eta: I am not against counseling at all. I kind of thought if you had your child on medication, counseling was part of that. I have no idea though since I haven't had a child on medication before.

[fairfarmhand]

I would like to say that consequences that work with average kids have never worked with Tigger. What finally seems to be helping make progress is helping him identify triggers and explicitly teaching coping skills such as how to recognize when he is getting frustrated and needs to calm down before he explodes. His self-awareness and skills in these areas lag behind by a couple year, I think. Stuff that more normal kids seem to figure out on their own he needs taught over and over because his feelings are so extreme: great excitement or everything is terrible and everyone is mean to him.

 

yup. Mine too.

 

Honestly, I've considered medication, but chose teaching the coping skills instead.

 

Have you read "the explosive child"?

 

Even with meds you are not going to get an instant fix.

 

My dd got much worse as puberty approached. And yes, she was youngish for that too.

 

She was dealing with perfectionism, intensity of personality and major hormone swings. Along with her friends going back to school, etc. It was a difficult time.

[freesia]

She is my biological daughter. My oldest with hfa doesn't "get away" with anything, and doesn't have major behavioral issues. He is disciplined the same as she is, and he helps out just as much. I listed her as "mommy's helper" because she likes to help,and she's good at helping. She definitely has a gift there. My son's autism has been helped a lot with diet changes. He has been gluten free, dairy free and dye free for 3 years and most of his issues diapearred with the diet. Long enough that my dd8 probably can't remember how he was before.

 

My adopted dd is 3 and has cerebral palsy. We do have a lot going on, but I have gone over my dd8's behavior in my mind for years (she was always a difficult child, only it has intensified with age) and I don't think it is justified to blame it on her having special needs siblings or my asking too much of her. Her biggest trigger is schoolwork and having to correct wrong answers and being told no. I have never witnessed any resentment toward her siblings. I am sorry you had that experience, but I'm not convinced that's our issue.

Okay, I hear you. But my Mom never would have said my younger brother and I had any problems with the special needs either. It wasn't part of our role in the family. It sounds like she doesn't want to be wrong. Now, I have children who have trouble with perfectionism in a home with no special needs (other than some mild dyslexia/dysgraphia), so I'm not saying you are wrong, but try not to completely discount it. In my home, also, my brother was an "encyclopedia",and I felt a lot of pressure to be as smart as him. A lot. (Not from my parents--internally) My youngest brother just gave up.

 

I'm glad that you have a handle of the behavior issue with regards to your HFA child. That is very difficult to do.

 

Whatever is causing the issue, she does need some coping skills for frustration. I don't know about the medication aspect to help you with, though. My only experience/knowledge with that aspect is as an adult.

 

All the best.

[Crimson Wife]

Take a look at the following and see if any of the symptoms of systemic yeast infection fit: http://www.tacanow.org/family-resources/what-is-yeast-overgrowth/

 

Nystatin has a very good safety profile, so you might want to ask your pediatrician about trying a course of it to see if it helps any rather than spending $$$ on speciality lab testing for yeast.

[freesia]

I don't think counseling is necessarily part of medication.

[fairfarmhand]

Here are two blog posts  I wrote about dealing with school work with my challenging child.

 

http://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/challenging-kids-schoolwork-contracts/

 

http://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/homeschooling-the-challenging-child-autonomy/

 

Also, you may think that you have a child with serious issues, And yes, you may. But honestly, if you post specifics about your troubles, you will probably be shocked at how many moms will say, Yeah, been there done that.

 

There were several points in our journey where my dd was unpleasant 75-80% of the time. She could hold it together for everyone else, but would fall all to pieces at home.

 

WRT the medication:

 

Be quite careful about getting behavior modifying meds from anyone other than a psychiatrist or mental health professional. We have family experience with members getting those meds from a family dr. It didn't go well. Please try counseling and psychiatry first. Or do meds in combination with counseling.

 

 

 

[Jennifer132]

yup. Mine too.

 

Honestly, I've considered medication, but chose teaching the coping skills instead.

 

Have you read "the explosive child"?

 

Even with meds you are not going to get an instant fix.

 

My dd got much worse as puberty approached. And yes, she was youngish for that too.

 

She was dealing with perfectionism, intensity of personality and major hormone swings. Along with her friends going back to school, etc. It was a difficult time.

I have read The Explosive Child. There were some interesting things in it, but practically it didn't work for us. We found ourselves discussing minute issues for lengthy periods of time. I really believe in discussion, but sometimes no means no (or go means go, for instance, whether or not she needs to take a shower or go to bed doesn't need to be a major battle) and doesn't require a discussion. My dd wasn't actually interested in discussing anyway, only in getting her way in the end. We ended up arguing even more.

 

I'm not sure teaching coping skills and using medication are mutually exclusive. I have been attempting to teach coping skills for several years and read countless books. I am not an impulsive or quick tempered person, so I have struggled to understand her. I'm wondering if medication could even things out so that she has a better capacity to learn coping skills.

[fairfarmhand]

I have read The Explosive Child. There were some interesting things in it, but practically it didn't work for us. We found ourselves discussing minute issues for lengthy periods of time. I really believe in discussion, but sometimes no means no (or go means go, for instance, whether or not she needs to take a shower or go to bed doesn't need to be a major battle) and doesn't require a discussion. My dd wasn't actually interested in discussing anyway, only in getting her way in the end. We ended up arguing even more.

 

I'm not sure teaching coping skills and using medication are mutually exclusive. I have been attempting to teach coping skills for several years and read countless books. I am not an impulsive or quick tempered person, so I have struggled to understand her. I'm wondering if medication could even things out so that she has a better capacity to learn coping skills.

 

you are probably right.

 

I wish you luck.

 

Some kids are just hard.

 

Hugs to you and best wishes on your journey.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I read "The Explosive Child" about a year ago. At the time I didn't find it helpful because I felt like the author was teaching parents to ignore most issues and let kids "get away" with bad behavior. I suspect if i reread it now I might have a different perspective and find it more helpful. For now, I need to finish the spirited kid book and put the rest into practice.

[Jennifer132]

Take a look at the following and see if any of the symptoms of systemic yeast infection fit: http://www.tacanow.org/family-resources/what-is-yeast-overgrowth/

 

Nystatin has a very good safety profile, so you might want to ask your pediatrician about trying a course of it to see if it helps any rather than spending $$$ on speciality lab testing for yeast.

We actually suspected yeast, and have done three rounds of Diane Craft's supplement program for gut imbalance in the last year. the supplements helped some, but not totally and it seemed to come in waves of good vs. bad behavior. I'm not really certain anymore if it is really a yeast issue or not.

[gardenmom5]

I had an emotionally volatile child (hit at puberty, partially hormonal). . . . among other things her d3 levels were seriously low. it was years before we learned that.  she did eventually go the rx route, but they didn't help nearly as much as they should have.  (which is how we found out - I insisted on more testing and another provider. only at that time our family friend/endo had moved to NJ and it was hard just to ask him for a recommendation.)

 

so, do blood work to see what she is low in - and get high quality supplementation when required.  only d3 gel-tabs should be used for vitamin d deficiency.  (d2 doesn't raise the numbers long term.)  my dd doesn't absorb d3 and must use drops.

 

my other experience is - if things are deficient, rx won't work adequately.

 

if levels are all in a healthy range and still not seeing improvement, then you medicate.  preferably by someone who knows what they are doing - and that isn't your ped.

 

- and I do have one with severe anxiety who will present as aggression if the anxiety gets overwhelming.

 

[Tap]

Medication has been a God send to us.  DD used to tantrum 75% of the day (not exaggerating) but now is down to 10-15%.  They are still extreme but not nearly as bad as when it was 75%.

 

 

[Jennifer132]

Medication has been a God send to us. DD used to tantrum 75% of the day (not exaggerating) but now is down to 10-15%. They are still extreme but not nearly as bad as when it was 75%.

May I ask what medication and were there side affects?

[fairfarmhand]

I read "The Explosive Child" about a year ago. At the time I didn't find it helpful because I felt like the author was teaching parents to ignore most issues and let kids "get away" with bad behavior. I suspect if i reread it now I might have a different perspective and find it more helpful. For now, I need to finished the spirited kid book and put the rest into practice.

I think for our family, the book helped us more by helping me understand my dd's thought processes rather than simply following the scripted replies that the author gave. I do agree that he seems to be rather formulaic at times.

 

So identifying triggers and problem spots like inflexibility helped us understand one antother. I learned that she needed much more structured stuff than I was giving her. Not necessarily in rules, but in routines and advanced notice when there were unpleasant things to do. (She does much better when we sit down and talk about and write down responsibilities a week in advance than when I just toss "Hey here's your chores for today.")

 

I've learned to pre-empt arguments by taking care of things ahead of time. "dd, you need to do x, y, and z this week. Look at what you have going and let me know which days you can tackle those chores." Suddenly, the discussion is not so much focused on whether or not she wants to do that chore, but which day she will do them. Just making a small grid chart in excel each week has helped immeasurably.

 

In the past, I would assume motives like laziness, rebellion, or grouchiness to her. However, she really didn't mind pitching in if a. everyone was doing chores and not just her . (The grid chart helps because she sees everyone else's responsibilites too and realized that she not doing it all because she's the oldest. Fairness is a huge thing.) and b. if she had enough advanced notice to get her mind around what was going on that day. c. she felt like it was being handled in an adultlike manner. She bristles at the thought that someone might be "in charge" of her or have to tell her what to do.

 

I wish back when my dd was younger, I'd done the same. "Do you want to shower morning or evening that day. Remember we have to get out the door earlier that day. Perhaps you might want an evening shower? What about clothing? What clothes do I need to have ready for you for x activity on Tuesday?" I think laying things out ahead of time would have minimized much of the drama about me "telling her what to do." Which would make her bow up.

 

OP, my apologies for the off topic discussion. I know this wasn't in the scope of your original post, but I thought it might help someone else.

[mama55]

Sorry if this is not what you are looking for, as we have not tried meds.

 

I have an 8-year-old who has serious anger-management issues, but we are making wonderful progress, so I feel compelled to share.  She still has those blow-outs, but instead of hours-long, smashing stuff, hitting, etc., she is crying in her room for 5 minutes and then coming out with an apology.  

 

We saw a therapist for a while, who did play therapy with DD.  It was really helpful.  Perhaps not for DD, but for me.  The therapist really listened (without judgment!), and she had great advice.  She was the one who convinced me that DD would not act like that if she could help it, that getting mad and/or punishing her would never help.  Instead, building up her self-esteem has been crucial, along with teaching self-regulation skills.  For that, we really liked What To Do When Your Temper Flares.  This year, we are using the MindUP curriculum, and it is wonderful.  I like that it teaches real information about the brain, which really helps DD understand why she has reactions and how to stop herself.  

[LostSurprise]

No words here against behavioral medication if that is what this child needs. 

 

As someone somewhat BTDT (in a completely different situation), let me just advise you to be open to anything. There should be thorough medical/physical checks before going to a psychiatrist, and most physicians will counsel that. Since these actions can be the result of many physical and mental causes there are a lot of things to check. 

 

Many psychiatrists do not like parents to come in with an expectation of medication either. They may want to try other things first. 

 

I wish you well. 

[Jyhwkmama]

1. See a psychiatrist (MD), not a psychologist.

 

2. Consider an antidepressant (ie Zoloft) and possibly Intuniv.

[fairfarmhand]

You should re-read it.  Perhaps you missed the salient point which is that parental flexibility is the big key.  

 

I think a lot of authoritarian parents create the bad behaviors they end up seeing with inflexible parenting.  I did it, so I can say that. :)

 

yup.

 

I try not to think in terms of "getting away with it" when it comes to emotional meltdowns.

 

Of course, problems like stealing, disobeying, etc. must be dealt with, but emotional meltdowns (which are a HUGE component to our challenging kids' lives) aren't pleasurable for anyone.

[AK_Mom4]

She is my biological daughter. My oldest with hfa doesn't "get away" with anything, and doesn't have major behavioral issues. He is disciplined the same as she is, and he helps out just as much. I listed her as "mommy's helper" because she likes to help,and she's good at helping. She definitely has a gift there. My son's autism has been helped a lot with diet changes. He has been gluten free, dairy free and dye free for 3 years and most of his issues diapearred with the diet. Long enough that my dd8 probably can't remember how he was before.

 

This may be a silly question, but if you have one that does well gluten, dairy and dye-free, does that same diet seem to help her?  I think it's a great idea at meds to help her come down long enough to learn some coping.  Play therapy is a great way for kids to work on these skills.  Allergy-testing might be a good idea as well as the irritabiity from low-level allergies may be helping to "ramp up" the behaviors.

[Jennifer132]

This may be a silly question, but if you have one that does well gluten, dairy and dye-free, does that same diet seem to help her? I think it's a great idea at meds to help her come down long enough to learn some coping. Play therapy is a great way for kids to work on these skills. Allergy-testing might be a good idea as well as the irritabiity from low-level allergies may be helping to "ramp up" the behaviors.

Unfortunately, his diet doesn't make a difference for her. :/ I will ask about allergies though.

[gardenmom5]

regarding inflexibility -

 

for some kids - it may be simple rebellion against an inflexible parenting style.

 

oth:  my own experience, both as an inflexible child, and the parent of inflexible children - there is a genetic/brain function component.  I knew I was being inflexible - but I literally could not force myself to bend without it causing anxiety. :toetap05:  as I've gotten older I've been able to overcome quite a bit  (I've even gotten flexible doing yoga. :001_tt2: )   - as has my very inflexible daughter.

 

I did, and encourage, activities that help develop how the brain works. e.g. I do yoga, dd did gymnastics, and there's swimming, MA, etc.)

[LLMom]

I had a son like this.  Finally, when he was ten we had him evaluated.  He was put on tegretol and became a different person.  He didn't have many side effects (mostly it decreased his appetite)  It was so worth it.  When he hit puberty around 15, we had to change things up. Found out he is bipolar.  I am glad we tried something early on instead of waiting. Actually, I wished i would have had him evaluated at a younger age.  So many people told me he was just slow to develop, immature, etc.  No, there really was a problem.

[BlsdMama]

Does she have any learning issues?

 

I'm curious. We have one that has major flares, imo, and we had him evaluated for learning disorders by an educational psychologist. She told us we could potentially see a lot of resulting anger/ anxiety and opposition with him because of executive processing issues.

 

I'm just wondering if that could be a tandem issue.

[Jennifer132]

Does she have any learning issues?

 

I'm curious. We have one that has major flares, imo, and we had him evaluated for learning disorders by an educational psychologist. She told us we could potentially see a lot of resulting anger/ anxiety and opposition with him because of executive processing issues.

 

I'm just wondering if that could be a tandem issue.

Most of her outbursts pertain to frustration with schoolwork (not that the work is too hard, but she hates having to redo a problem if it is wrong or rewrite a word if it is wrong in handwriting). I have examined her curriculum, and I think it is appropriate for her in terms of skill levels. LD is certainly something to consider though.

 

To me, it seems her outbursts are anxiety related, possibly...she makes a mistake, I ask her to correct it, and she gets anxiety about not being done or not knowing if it will be correct the next time. I tell her she needs to take a minute to calm down and ask her to leave the room to do so. Then she gets even more upset about being asked to leave and having to calm down before doing the problem over and refuses to leave. Once she gets to that point, and she's smacking herself on the head or slamming the gate, I am concerned about how that is affecting my little ones to see it going on.

[Cera]

Here are two blog posts  I wrote about dealing with school work with my challenging child.

 

http://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/challenging-kids-schoolwork-contracts/

 

http://hotmesshomeschooling.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/homeschooling-the-challenging-child-autonomy/

 

Also, you may think that you have a child with serious issues, And yes, you may. But honestly, if you post specifics about your troubles, you will probably be shocked at how many moms will say, Yeah, been there done that.

 

There were several points in our journey where my dd was unpleasant 75-80% of the time. She could hold it together for everyone else, but would fall all to pieces at home.

 

WRT the medication:

 

Be quite careful about getting behavior modifying meds from anyone other than a psychiatrist or mental health professional. We have family experience with members getting those meds from a family dr. It didn't go well. Please try counseling and psychiatry first. Or do meds in combination with counseling.

Definitely agree with this.  If you do decide to consider meds make sure they are prescribed by a pediatric psychiatrist specifically.  Not a family doctor or even a general practice psych.  Also be sure to combine them with therapy (we do cbt) because on their own they really won't solve anything (our psych explained it as the meds allowing the therapy to work).

[fairfarmhand]

Most of her outbursts pertain to frustration with schoolwork (not that the work is too hard, but she hates having to redo a problem if it is wrong or rewrite a word if it is wrong in handwriting). I have examined her curriculum, and I think it is appropriate for her in terms of skill levels. LD is certainly something to consider though.

 

To me, it seems her outbursts are anxiety related, possibly...she makes a mistake, I ask her to correct it, and she gets anxiety about not being done or not knowing if it will be correct the next time. I tell her she needs to take a minute to calm down and ask her to leave the room to do so. Then she gets even more upset about being asked to leave and having to calm down before doing the problem over and refuses to leave. Once she gets to that point, and she's smacking herself on the head or slamming the gate, I am concerned about how that is affecting my little ones to see it going on.

ugh, This is taking me back a few years. We've been through that.

[Lolly]

Most of her outbursts pertain to frustration with schoolwork (not that the work is too hard, but she hates having to redo a problem if it is wrong or rewrite a word if it is wrong in handwriting). I have examined her curriculum, and I think it is appropriate for her in terms of skill levels. LD is certainly something to consider though.

 

To me, it seems her outbursts are anxiety related, possibly...she makes a mistake, I ask her to correct it, and she gets anxiety about not being done or not knowing if it will be correct the next time. I tell her she needs to take a minute to calm down and ask her to leave the room to do so. Then she gets even more upset about being asked to leave and having to calm down before doing the problem over and refuses to leave. Once she gets to that point, and she's smacking herself on the head or slamming the gate, I am concerned about how that is affecting my little ones to see it going on.

 

It might be something that has to be seen, but if she is not physically harming herself with her smacking herself on the head, I don't really see anything abnormal about her reaction. She is frustrated with herself and making it known. I would definitely try some counseling first because I see a parent/child personality conflict more than anything. An idea to try, approach her anxiety in another way. When she needs to calm down instead of banishing her (which is probably what you would need, time alone to regroup), try hugging her and soothing her. Take the time out WITH her. Stop and go outside together and play for a little bit. Also, consider lessening your standards on corrections. If she makes a mistake, just allow her to look at it and tell you what the correct answer would be. Everything does not need to be perfect. It is okay to not have every answer corrected on a paper. She misses a spelling word, have her spell it out loud to you instead of rewriting it. Heck, don't even tell her she missed it, just ask her how to spell it. While handwriting is important, as long as the letters are legible, it is okay to let it slide a little. Instead of redoing, focus the NEXT lesson focusing on whatever was wrong. (Honey, today we are going to work on making sure the third hump is on the end. It is kind of strange because when you print, the m only has two humps...) The anxiety it is causing is not worth it. 

[fairfarmhand]

It might be something that has to be seen, but if she is not physically harming herself with her smacking herself on the head, I don't really see anything abnormal about her reaction. She is frustrated with herself and making it known. I would definitely try some counseling first because I see a parent/child personality conflict more than anything. An idea to try, approach her anxiety in another way. When she needs to calm down instead of banishing her (which is probably what you would need, time alone to regroup), try hugging her and soothing her. Take the time out WITH her. Stop and go outside together and play for a little bit. Also, consider lessening your standards on corrections. If she makes a mistake, just allow her to look at it and tell you what the correct answer would be. Everything does not need to be perfect. It is okay to not have every answer corrected on a paper. She misses a spelling word, have her spell it out loud to you instead of rewriting it. Heck, don't even tell her she missed it, just ask her how to spell it. While handwriting is important, as long as the letters are legible, it is okay to let it slide a little. Instead of redoing, focus the NEXT lesson focusing on whatever was wrong. (Honey, today we are going to work on making sure the third hump is on the end. It is kind of strange because when you print, the m only has two humps...) The anxiety it is causing is not worth it. 

 

yes. yes. yes!

[Reefgazer]

I don't even have difficult kids, so I'm not sure why I opened this post, but anyway, I haven't seen this mentioned, so I'll throw it out there.  Have you noticed whether her meltdowns happen at a particular time of day?  I know you said it is associated with certain types of schoolwork, but if that is done at a particular time of day, maybe it's the time of day and she is over-tired?  Just a thought, since I am an unbearable, short-tempered beast if I haven't gotten enough sleep and am stressed out for whatever reason.  I really have to say out loud to myself to "step back, calm down, and get to bed earlier this evening", but I'm an adult who learned to do that.  Is she over-tired, or at least over-stressed at the time of day she does her work?

[Plateau Mama]

Most of her outbursts pertain to frustration with schoolwork (not that the work is too hard, but she hates having to redo a problem if it is wrong or rewrite a word if it is wrong in handwriting). I have examined her curriculum, and I think it is appropriate for her in terms of skill levels. LD is certainly something to consider though.

To me, it seems her outbursts are anxiety related, possibly...she makes a mistake, I ask her to correct it, and she gets anxiety about not being done or not knowing if it will be correct the next time. I tell her she needs to take a minute to calm down and ask her to leave the room to do so. Then she gets even more upset about being asked to leave and having to calm down before doing the problem over and refuses to leave. Once she gets to that point, and she's smacking herself on the head or slamming the gate, I am concerned about how that is affecting my little ones to see it going on.

I know you've said you tried diet, but have you removed corn? If so were you diligent for a few weeks at least? I ask because everything you describe is my son on corn. His out outbursts got so bad my other children were afraid of him. We removed corn and he became a different child. He rarely has outbursts and when he does and I ask him to go to his room he now does it instead of refusing, crying and screaming causing harm to himself. If he has ANY corn, even a tiny amount the tears and tantrums return. But here's the catch, it doesn't show up for 24-36 hours. Then it lasts 24-36 hours.

 

Not saying that's her problem but my child is a totally different kid now. Even he feels it. He tells people that corn makes him chemically unbalanced.

[SJ.]

BTDT.  What worked for us was (1) seeing a child therapist, (2) having an eval with an OT where he was diagnosed with sensory processing issues, including a severe visual processing delay, and (3) most importantly adjusting my expectations and reactions.  In addition to the books recommended I suggest the book Mindset which talks about the perfectionist mindset, it really helped me communicate with both of my children who are perfectionists.

[SJ.]

It might be something that has to be seen, but if she is not physically harming herself with her smacking herself on the head, I don't really see anything abnormal about her reaction. She is frustrated with herself and making it known. I would definitely try some counseling first because I see a parent/child personality conflict more than anything. An idea to try, approach her anxiety in another way. When she needs to calm down instead of banishing her (which is probably what you would need, time alone to regroup), try hugging her and soothing her. Take the time out WITH her. Stop and go outside together and play for a little bit. Also, consider lessening your standards on corrections. If she makes a mistake, just allow her to look at it and tell you what the correct answer would be. Everything does not need to be perfect. It is okay to not have every answer corrected on a paper. She misses a spelling word, have her spell it out loud to you instead of rewriting it. Heck, don't even tell her she missed it, just ask her how to spell it. While handwriting is important, as long as the letters are legible, it is okay to let it slide a little. Instead of redoing, focus the NEXT lesson focusing on whatever was wrong. (Honey, today we are going to work on making sure the third hump is on the end. It is kind of strange because when you print, the m only has two humps...) The anxiety it is causing is not worth it. 

 

This, a million times.

 

When I notice my ds is having a difficult time with something and is frustrated I try not to let it get to the point where he gets so upset that he has an outburst.  If you find that your dd is starting to get to that point you can make a mental note of what she needs to work on and review it tomorrow or later.  

 

We do a lot of talking about how our brains are similar to muscles and need to be challenged.  When you are challenged you make mistakes and that is how you learn.  I am constantly telling my little perfectionists that if they automatically know all the answers then we are working on the wrong material and they are not learning.  Constantly.

[lea1]

I have an 8 YO son who sounds very similar to your daughter.  School used to take soooo much longer than it should have because of his melt downs. When he finally calmed down, he would normally apologize and feel badly about how he acted.  The vast majority of his melt downs were related to school, being told no or having to do something else he didn't want to do, such as having to go with me grocery shopping instead of playing with a neighbor friend.

 

We read every book that has been listed in this thread and felt as if we had tried everything (this was not new behavior).  We went to several counselors and never really saw any improvement with any of them.  We finally put him on a very low dose of prozac (half of a normal child's dose).  It is like we have a new child.  He is so much happier and has not had one major melt down since the medication kicked in. And he is so happy about that.  He did not like having the melt downs either.  So he is so happy that he can now control his behavior and emotions so much better.

 

My gut feeling is that he is a high anxiety child.  We really did not want to put him on medication and felt that we exhausted all of our options.  I don't feel good about having him take a medication like this at such a young age.  We are thinking about trying to wean him off of it very very slowly starting in January and see how he does.  My dh was also doing a lot of traveling over a couple of the years when ds's anger was so bad and I wonder if that had an impact.  So we will try to slowly wean him off and see how it goes.  If we see he still needs it, we will put him on the smallest dose possible and try weaning again maybe a year or so later, with hopes that he may outgrow it at some point. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

Until you do a full eval and get some sort of reliable diagnosis, I would be slow to start medication. I am not saying don't do medication, I am just encouraging you to get more information about what is at play with your daughter before making a decision.

 

I've BTDT and ultimately we have seen good results with a combination of behaviorial therapy and medication for our son with autism but it sounds to me like you haven't really started any professional treatments yet and don't know what, if any, diagnosis she falls into. Without all that information, starting medication to treat symptoms may not help and without behavioral interventions and therapies to work with the medication, she won't be gaining the anger managment skill and distress tolerance techniques she needs to live happily in the long run, on or off medication. You could also be missing underlying causes of her anxiety which could be remedied. Again, I am not saying don't medicate. My son is on a serious medication and it's doing him and us a lot of good. But I am encouraging you not to skip a step or take a meds only approach.

[Twolittleboys]

I know you were asking about medication but unfortunately I can't say anything to that as we have never had to use any (though I am definitely not categorically against it). However, I also have a child who is intense, explosive etc and wanted to mentioned what helped in our case. We had a REALLY hard time when he was around 7 (yes, we ended up at the psychiatrist), but he is 12 now and things are MUCH better. So just in case something could help you: Life goes much smoother here if my son had enough sleep and eats every couple of hours. Actually, sometimes when he "loses" it I will ignore his behaviour largely (it just escalated otherwise) and just get him to eat something. Most of the time he will then calm down on his own.

 

The other thing - and it is harder then it sounds: He will get much worse when he feels he isn't "liked" etc. So even when enforcing rules/punishing he needs a connection. I know it sounds like just giving in/doing what the child wants but the problem is that he really CAN'T stop once he gets upset (no matter the consequences). In order to change his behaviour he first has to calm down which he can't do if he sees that I am mad at him. I am not explaining this very well and it does look like being too soft. It isn't really about giving in to make things go smooth though but to help the child cope better. If I am not too stressed myself I can generally head off problems. If on the other hand I am impatient/stressed myself things can escalate fast.

 

[Laura Corin]

It might be something that has to be seen, but if she is not physically harming herself with her smacking herself on the head, I don't really see anything abnormal about her reaction. She is frustrated with herself and making it known. I would definitely try some counseling first because I see a parent/child personality conflict more than anything. An idea to try, approach her anxiety in another way. When she needs to calm down instead of banishing her (which is probably what you would need, time alone to regroup), try hugging her and soothing her. Take the time out WITH her. Stop and go outside together and play for a little bit. Also, consider lessening your standards on corrections. If she makes a mistake, just allow her to look at it and tell you what the correct answer would be. Everything does not need to be perfect. It is okay to not have every answer corrected on a paper. She misses a spelling word, have her spell it out loud to you instead of rewriting it. Heck, don't even tell her she missed it, just ask her how to spell it. While handwriting is important, as long as the letters are legible, it is okay to let it slide a little. Instead of redoing, focus the NEXT lesson focusing on whatever was wrong. (Honey, today we are going to work on making sure the third hump is on the end. It is kind of strange because when you print, the m only has two humps...) The anxiety it is causing is not worth it. 

 

Yes.  Hobbes had to get everything right or his world fell apart.  We spent a lot of time correcting work orally, which seemed to be less stressful for him.  We read books about the benefits of effort and working for distant goals with setbacks along the way.  

 

Best of luck

 

L

[Laura Corin]

The other thing - and it is harder then it sounds: He will get much worse when he feels he isn't "liked" etc. So even when enforcing rules/punishing he needs a connection. I know it sounds like just giving in/doing what the child wants but the problem is that he really CAN'T stop once he gets upset (no matter the consequences). In order to change his behaviour he first has to calm down which he can't do if he sees that I am mad at him. I am not explaining this very well and it does look like being too soft. It isn't really about giving in to make things go smooth though but to help the child cope better. If I am not too stressed myself I can generally head off problems. If on the other hand I am impatient/stressed myself things can escalate fast.

This was the same with Hobbes.  Punishing him with time outs etc. broke the connection with me - he had to feel part of the family, not pushed out of it.  When he was overwrought I would hold him tight - he would get time-ins, not time-outs.  I know that this does not work with all children, but for him, the closeness was calming and allowed him to want to obey the rules from within the family.  After the intense hugs, he always had to do what I was asking - there was no getting away with things.

 

L

[Tiramisu]

We deal with  a mix of sensory processing issues, anxiety, depression, etc., in our children to different degrees. Because of family history, I know genetics plays a big part of it. One dc is particularly tough. Around age 8 symptoms ramped up in all my dd's and I think it was the hormones getting going. We've been through tons of medical testing. We have identified mild allergies and changed diets, but it didn't help very much in the long term. Being consistent with discipline and as affectionate and forgiving as possible has had the best effect--also, learning each of their love languages. It sounds corny but it's true. It helped more than therapy.

 

For me, personally, the decision to try meds with kids becomes clear when you see the behaviors--despite your best efforts to nurture and discipline consistently--are damaging relationships in the family, between you and the child and between siblings. Again, I personally feel the damaged relationships will do more long-term harm than taking meds in most cases. I wish I had been more proactive when my tough one was younger, during the time she was willingly going to counselling and would have been open to meds. Now she's not so we have fewer resources to work with.

 

I have only one child who has ever taken meds and she did not start meds until she was nearly an adult and asked for them herself. It was a night and day difference. Now I think her years growing up would have been better for HER if we had been open to meds earlier. And, my last story, someone very dear to me recently shared that she had started medication a few months ago. She is an older woman. She is now wondering if she could have had a better life if she had tried medication at a younger age and asking herself if years of her life had been wasted with anxiety and depression that could have been effectively managed. 

 

You can see I am an advocate of meds for the right reasons. It took me having to see a lot of suffering to get to where I am. But like some PPs mentioned, make sure you are dealing with a child psychiatrist who takes a conservative approach and takes a good family history. 

[chiguirre]

I agree with Lucy Stoner that you need to find out what's going on before you think about treatments. For what it's worth, meds can make a world of difference or not work at all. For GW, Risperdal and Depakote reduced his tantrums to a livable level. For Geezle, they didn't make any difference at all. That surprised me, but not their doctors. Finding a med that works can be a lot of trial and error. On the bright side, Geezle did develop coping skills eventually and his behavior isn't inhibiting his daily life.