S/o to Duggar Daughter Thread…Chaste Men Sexually Confused After Marriage

[TranquilMind]

 

Or they simply made the decision to wait until committed for life for very good reasons. I think of someone I know whose brother AND sister both impregnated/got pregnant in the teen years. He decided to WAIT. He wasn't going there; he got an excellent education and is in a good marriage of 30 years now.

 

Not a bad decision and teens today would do well to consider this sort of wisdom from older people. All won't, but if they will, this should be encouraged.

[TranquilMind]

 

(Bold mine)

Some don't consider it interference to have their religion be about the total person.

 

 

Exactly! Some know that this wisdom expressed in scripture really is for their own best interests.

[CaffeineDiary]

One that comes to mind is when a close family friend's barely 16 dd got pregnant.  We discussed that situation a lot.  It was devastating to her, her parents, her grandparents....other mentors who had known her all her life and watched her make a commitment to live by God's standards. In a practical sense (morality aside) we have discussed the problems she has brought on herself by her conduct.  It follows that we discuss how much better it would have been had she waited until marriage to have sex.  So I don't know how we could have that conversation without mentioning that sex isn't bad in itself and can be wonderful in the proper circumstances.

 

This is a tangent, but put yourself in the shoes of your friend's DD's child.  Imagine yourself reading those words from that child's perspective.

Having seen this play out in various friend's families, the only thing I want to say is that when you look upon people with judgmental eyes, they notice.  And adjust their opinions of you accordingly.

[marbel]

I guess if one believes in waiting until marriage, then that is how you talk about. I still can't picture it, though. How does that even come up? Can you give me an example?

 

First it comes up in the basic conversations about sex.  This is what it is how it works, etc., and we believe it is best for people to wait till they are married for these reasons.   If parents are teaching about it from a Biblical basis, they would read and discuss appropriate scriptures and also talk about the confusion that may be caused by men having multiple wives, concubines, etc.   

 

Then as Scarlet noted it might come up when situations in the kids' lives come up.  There is a young woman at our church who has had two children without having a husband or even a father for them.  My kids can see her struggles and we talk about it -->  not in a judging, condemning way but as "she made these choices and it's not working well for her."   They see the negative consequences.  (They also see the difference between becoming a single mom by having sex with men who are not going to be good fathers, and becoming a single mom by thoughtful choice or by an unexpected event such as death or divorce.) 

 

It also comes up in the pulpit when whatever passage the pastors are preaching on calls for it.  (In our church we don't have topical sermons, but rather the pastors will choose a book of the bible to go through, and will preach from that each week, so sometimes sexual sin will come up.)  Never have I heard it preached that sex is sinful, full stop.   But it is clear that it is for married people only.

 

So, it seems pretty easy to me.

 

But, it seems that if nothing is said to a child/teen about sex other than the mechanics of it - meaning, no moral value is put on it - they are going to pick up the broader cultural messages which seem (in the US, anyway) to be:  sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone.   Maybe that is an extreme view but it is my perception.  I'm not saying anyone here is teaching their kids that.  Just trying to think how anyone teaches their kids about sex without including any comments about the appropriate expression of it.   I understand people not feeling it's necessary to wait for marriage.  But are there any limits?  I am not trying to be snarky, I hope everyone can see that.  I realize there is a lot of middle ground between "wait till marriage" and "whatever, whenever, with whomever" but I'm wondering how people convey that to their kids if there is no moral value attached to sex.  It's not exactly like driving or drinking alcohol, kwim?   Again, I'm genuinely curious about that and would like to be educated, not chastised, please. 

[Scarlett]

This is a tangent, but put yourself in the shoes of your friend's DD's child.  Imagine yourself reading those words from that child's perspective.

Having seen this play out in various friend's families, the only thing I want to say is that when you look upon people with judgmental eyes, they notice.  And adjust their opinions of you accordingly.

 

 

What are you talking about?  Judgmental eyes?  I don't even know what that means.

[Scarlett]

This is a tangent, but put yourself in the shoes of your friend's DD's child.  Imagine yourself reading those words from that child's perspective.

Having seen this play out in various friend's families, the only thing I want to say is that when you look upon people with judgmental eyes, they notice.  And adjust their opinions of you accordingly.

 

 

Perhaps you are assuming she has been treated badly by people in her life?  I don't know.  I don't know what you are saying.

[Joanne]

 

But, it seems that if nothing is said to a child/teen about sex other than the mechanics of it - meaning, no moral value is put on it - they are going to pick up the broader cultural messages which seem (in the US, anyway) to be:  sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone.   Maybe that is an extreme view but it is my perception.  I'm not saying anyone here is teaching their kids that.  Just trying to think how anyone teaches their kids about sex without including any comments about the appropriate expression of it.   I understand people not feeling it's necessary to wait for marriage.  But are there any limits?  I am not trying to be snarky, I hope everyone can see that.  I realize there is a lot of middle ground between "wait till marriage" and "whatever, whenever, with whomever" but I'm wondering how people convey that to their kids if there is no moral value attached to sex.  It's not exactly like driving or drinking alcohol, kwim?   Again, I'm genuinely curious about that and would like to be educated, not chastised, please. 

 

I disagree that the US cultural message is  sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone. I think "most people" have opinions, values, and morals that are much more conservative than that description.

 

I think the disconnect with your perception and the reality of those who don't have a religious perspective is an assumption on your part that not having that religious based decision point means "we" allow, accept, or encourage sex.

 

I personally tell my kids that sex can be great and that their bodies are designed to want and enjoy it. I tell them that sex complicates most relationships, and therefore it is best to choose wisely and carefully in terms of sexual decisions: oral, intercourse, making out, etc. We have talked "all along" about sex, birth control. As they age and mature, we talk more about how and why including sex in a relationship can be an intense component of relationships. We talk directly about all aspects. I don't, however, believe that sex is always a complicator, or that casual sex is inherently a problem. There are cultures (Icelandic, for example) where very casual sex is the norm. I know I had some casual encounters with absolutely no regrets, issues, or problems.

 

I don't suggest limiting sex to "committed, monogamous" relationships because I think recreational sex is a decision many people will make during the lifespan. I want my kids to know that it is difficult to actually have FWB, or no strings attached sex and I want to be the one to help my kids determine their values and feelings around it.

 

My preferences would be for my kids to be closer to 20 than 10 as they begin to express physical intimacy. I personally find extended virginity.......unsettling. I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin OR a 20 something who has had many partners OR anyone who has unprotected sex.

[Cricket]

But, it seems that if nothing is said to a child/teen about sex other than the mechanics of it - meaning, no moral value is put on it - they are going to pick up the broader cultural messages which seem (in the US, anyway) to be:  sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone.   Maybe that is an extreme view but it is my perception.  I'm not saying anyone here is teaching their kids that.  Just trying to think how anyone teaches their kids about sex without including any comments about the appropriate expression of it.   I understand people not feeling it's necessary to wait for marriage.  But are there any limits?  I am not trying to be snarky, I hope everyone can see that.  I realize there is a lot of middle ground between "wait till marriage" and "whatever, whenever, with whomever" but I'm wondering how people convey that to their kids if there is no moral value attached to sex.  It's not exactly like driving or drinking alcohol, kwim?   Again, I'm genuinely curious about that and would like to be educated, not chastised, please. 

 

I agree.  Kids pick up values from somewhere.  I think it is good to be intentional and pro-active with parenting in any area of life, especially when I see a message coming from pop culture that is the opposite of what I believe is healthy.

 

My mom grew up in the South in the 1950s.  I remember her commenting once that it was weird to be told her whole life that sex was something she shouldn't even think about and then suddenly on the wedding night she was supposed to know everything.  My parents were open to discussing sex and any other topic.  I don't remember many conversations about sex but I do remember how my dad only had eyes for my mom and how he was very open about his feeling towards her.  (My mom was more reserved!)  It was normal to us that husbands and wives desired each other.  I think they gave me a very positive example of the beauty of sex and how it adds depth to a marriage. 

 

As far as the article linked by the OP, I always wonder who these Christians are and which churches they attend.  It's strange to me that a church would have a special support group just to maintain abstinence before marriage.  We have a men's group (and women's group) where we can discuss any issue--sex or not, married or single.  Sin is sin and we are all struggling with something.  I'm a conservative Christian but articles like this always make me wonder what all these other conservative Christian are doing.  It never matches my reality!  :lol:

 

 

[Dory]

This is a tangent, but put yourself in the shoes of your friend's DD's child.  Imagine yourself reading those words from that child's perspective.

Having seen this play out in various friend's families, the only thing I want to say is that when you look upon people with judgmental eyes, they notice.  And adjust their opinions of you accordingly.

 

I know situations like this and yes, it would've been easier on her if she had waited until she was older to have sex. That's just stating a fact, not being judgmental. We approached it as, she made a mistake, with we all do with some things, and we still love her, as we do with anyone that makes a mistake. We can learn from mistakes and hopefully learn from others mistakes so we don't all have to repeat the same mistake, but that doesn't make us love her any less or want to support her any less. She and her baby were still a welcome part of our family and always will be. Mistakes are part of life. Her mistake will just have lifelong repercussions.

[Word Nerd]

 

As far as the article linked by the OP, I always wonder who these Christians are and which churches they attend.  

 

In this case, the focus was on 15 men from the same church.

 

In 2008, Diefendorf first conducted several interviews with men in one such small group, called The River, which was formed at the Message of Truth, a nondenominational mega-church in the Southwest. The group of 15 men met weekly to support each other in their struggles to remain abstinent, and many became close friends.

[Crimson Wife]

  I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin

 

I wouldn't. I would see that person as good marriage material because like the famous "Marshmallow test", that person has shown himself/herself to be self-disciplined and able to put long-term benefits ahead of short-term pleasures. That person is likely to be hardworking, frugal, not into drugs or excessive alcohol, and likely to eat healthy & exercise. All of these things stem from strong self-control.

 

I married a guy like this and he's been a great husband. Hopefully he would say the same about me as a wife :-)

[Scarlett]

I wouldn't. I would see that person as good marriage material because like the famous "Marshmallow test", that person has shown himself/herself to be self-disciplined and able to put long-term benefits ahead of short-term pleasures. That person is likely to be hardworking, frugal, not into drugs or excessive alcohol, and likely to eat healthy & exercise. All of these things stem from strong self-control.

 

I married a guy like this and he's been a great husband. Hopefully he would say the same about me as a wife :-)

 

 

I am weirded out that anyone is weirded out by a 20 something virgin.  

[maize]

I wouldn't. I would see that person as good marriage material because like the famous "Marshmallow test", that person has shown himself/herself to be self-disciplined and able to put long-term benefits ahead of short-term pleasures. That person is likely to be hardworking, frugal, not into drugs or excessive alcohol, and likely to eat healthy & exercise. All of these things stem from strong self-control.

 

I married a guy like this and he's been a great husband. Hopefully he would say the same about me as a wife :-)

 

I agree with this 100%. Dh and I were both virgins when we got married at ages 25 and 23. Neither of us would change that for the world.

[stripe]

Some don't consider it interference to have their religion be about the total person.

If a doctor normally considers it in their realm of influence to ask about it, it seems strange for religions to ignore it. I have been asked how many partners I've had and whether I am sexually active, mutually monogamous, and so forth, at the doctor's. I've been asked how many cups of coffee/ tea/alcohol/milk I drink, whether I use various drugs or smoke, and how much exercise I get. So to me, it is a part of our health, both physical and mental. And it does impact our lifes. So it does seem relevant as part of moral teachings.

 

What's next? Cautioning your child not to marry someone with only one previous partner? Cautioning your child not to marry someone who was a virgin before their first marriage that has now ended? Cautioning your child not to marry someone with only two previous partners? With too many partners? Is there now an equation of normality? By age 20, you should have had more than x partners but less than y. And be prepared to tell your POTENTIAL boyfriend/girlfriend's mother all about your sexual history! In detail. Because having had three partners isn't enough to rate as normal unless we go through the details with Mom. Talk about inappropriate and invasive and downright WEIRD.

 

Some people just were busy in their teen years studying, or had limited access to decent partners, anyway, and their virginity is not some "statement" but just happened.

 

(Eta -- I know people who joined a religious order at a young age and the left it, and many then became married or otherwise in search of romantic intimacy. It seems unfair to warn people away from potentially very nice souls.)

 

Besides, if no one ever gets involved with 20-something year old virgins, how can they ever get more experience?

[Catwoman]

Ding!

 

And yes, I still reject Catwoman's out-of-left-field assertion that talking about gays in this thread is a derail.  Since if you're telling your children "Don't have sex until you're married", you're also saying to them "Never have sex at any time in your life, ever." if they are gay and living in the wrong state.  It is integral to the idea of how (or indeed whether) we talk to our children about sex.  Those who view it as a firewalled topic that is simply not conceived of (pardon the pun) outside of marriage are at an inherent disadvantage when coming to grasp (sorry) with their sex lives.  Many of us overcome that disadvantage, but that doesn't mean it's not there all the same.

Oh, OK. You don't seem to be able to let the gay thing go, so have fun with it. :)

 

(I still don't think it relates to the thread, but who cares what I think? :D)

[mommaduck]

I don't get being weirded out by a 20yr old virgin. DH and I married at 21 and 19. We were both virgins. There was no awkwardness, embarrassment, problems. Why is anyone weirded out by it? It wasn't for lack of opportunity with each other or other people (trust, there was opportunity for both). We just made certain choices. It didn't mean that we were physically cold towards one another (quite the opposite, in fact). We simply made the choice.

[Guest]

One that comes to mind is when a close family friend's barely 16 dd got pregnant. We discussed that situation a lot. It was devastating to her, her parents, her grandparents....other mentors who had known her all her life and watched her make a commitment to live by God's standards. In a practical sense (morality aside) we have discussed the problems she has brought on herself by her conduct. It follows that we discuss how much better it would have been had she waited until marriage to have sex. So I don't know how we could have that conversation without mentioning that sex isn't bad in itself and can be wonderful in the proper circumstances.

Okay, this I understand. I still don't hear myself saying "sex is wonderful, but best saved for marriage," but I get what you're saying.

[Wheres Toto]

The virginal status, or lack thereof, of potential partners is not really something I consider "warning" my children about.  I think other things - respect for others, responsible, not a drug abuser, not physically abusive, etc. are much more important.  A person could be a virgin, or not, for a wide variety of reasons that have nothing to do with self-esteem or self-control, or the lack thereof.

 

When I married dh, he was 48 years old and never married.  Something that would be considered a deal-breaker, or at least a big warning sign to many people.  And yet, all those things that it could have been an indication of (commitment-phobic, immature, etc.) were not present.  It was just the way the circumstances of his life worked out.

[GWOB]

I love Jesus and all that, but I'm not a member of the "Hymen Holiness" club. I don't teach my girls to base their self-worth or basic Jesusness on their hymens. I don't teach my son to base his self-worth or basic Jesusness on his ability to keep it in his pants. If they choose to remain virgins until they're married, fine. Their bodies, their decisions.

 

I don't think being a virgin when you marry means you'll have a horrible sex life. I don't think people who have sex before marriage are damaged goods going straight to Hell. That would mean I'm on the road to Hell, which would be totally awkward considering I teach Sunday School and confirmation at my church.

 

One more issue. Someone mentioned pointing at pregnant teen girls and using them as examples of the consequences of sin. That's trashy. Stop doing that! It's mean and hurtful to those girls. I got knocked up before I was married. And I was only 19!!! Should I wear a scarlet "W" or "S" for life so all the good people know not to associate with me? And I'm sorry, but my CHILD was NOT a consequence. She was an unexpected, but much loved, blessing. The hateful, mean, judgemental comments I received while pregnant hurt me deeply. Those comments did more damage to me than my little "consequence". Of course, I did give birth to little Consequence when I was 20, so I wasn't actually a teen mom. Does that restore some of my Hymen Holiness?

[FaithManor]

My boys are very goal oriented and very busy. Dd was the same way. All of them have had academic and extracurricular goals and activities that they chose to prioritize over dating. Dd the first year of college went to EMT school and carried 16 credit hours. The next year she carried 21 credits for a semester and then went to paramedic school while carrying 15 credits. She loved it, but did not have room for dating. She is now married to a lovely, amazing young man. It would have been sad if he had chosen to write her off because she was still a virgin. My sons are too busy trying to study for ACT's, win 4H awards, and build and fly complicated rockets to maintain any romances that lead to sex. It never occured to me that there would be parents who would actively discourage their children from dating them in college due to lack of sexual experience. 

 

 

[Dory]

I love Jesus and all that, but I'm not a member of the "Hymen Holiness" club. I don't teach my girls to base their self-worth or basic Jesusness on their hymens. I don't teach my son to base his self-worth or basic Jesusness on his ability to keep it in his pants. If they choose to remain virgins until they're married, fine. Their bodies, their decisions.

 

I don't think being a virgin when you marry means you'll have a horrible sex life. I don't think people who have sex before marriage are damaged goods going straight to Hell. That would mean I'm on the road to Hell, which would be totally awkward considering I teach Sunday School and confirmation at my church.

 

One more issue. Someone mentioned pointing at pregnant teen girls and using them as examples of the consequences of sin. That's trashy. Stop doing that! It's mean and hurtful to those girls. I got knocked up before I was married. And I was only 19!!! Should I wear a scarlet "W" or "S" for life so all the good people know not to associate with me? And I'm sorry, but my CHILD was NOT a consequence. She was an unexpected, but much loved, blessing. The hateful, mean, judgemental comments I received while pregnant hurt me deeply. Those comments did more damage to me than my little "consequence". Of course, I did give birth to little Consequence when I was 20, so I wasn't actually a teen mom. Does that restore some of my Hymen Holiness?

 

I can't imagine the damage it would do to a kid to somehow related holiness or purity to whether or not they were able to keep it in their pants or not. I don't focus on virginity, that would creep me out a little. I might encourage them to wait until marriage, but they are not 'damaged goods' if they don't. They are no less holy or acceptable if they make mistakes in their life. It's just that, a mistake.

I also can't imagine what sort of nasty people would actually say any mean, judgmental comments to a young single mom. Being a single mom is challenging enough. If you can't be caring and helpful, then get the hell out of the way. I'm sorry people in your world didn't know how to act lovingly. When I said lifelong consequences I was not meaning the baby was some sort of consequence. Babies are amazing blessings. Being a single parent, or a teen parent is just really hard, and it's more that I was meaning they now have a lot of responsibility on their plate that makes life tough. I would never want to insinuate to the mom that her baby was a consequence or that she made a stupid choice. All a new mom needs, regardless of whether she is single or married, is lots of love, support, and an open ear to hear her complain on the days that are super tiring.

[Word Nerd]

 

I tell them that sex complicates most relationships, and therefore it is best to choose wisely and carefully in terms of sexual decisions: oral, intercourse, making out, etc. 

 

I personally find extended virginity.......unsettling. I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin...

 

It seems to me that the statements above contradict each other. If it's best to choose wisely in terms of sexual decisions (and presumably it should be up to the individual to determine what "choosing wisely" entails), then it seems rather arbitrary to specify an age after which one's virginity would be considered extended and unsettling.

[Scarlett]

I love Jesus and all that, but I'm not a member of the "Hymen Holiness" club. I don't teach my girls to base their self-worth or basic Jesusness on their hymens. I don't teach my son to base his self-worth or basic Jesusness on his ability to keep it in his pants. If they choose to remain virgins until they're married, fine. Their bodies, their decisions.

 

I don't think being a virgin when you marry means you'll have a horrible sex life. I don't think people who have sex before marriage are damaged goods going straight to Hell. That would mean I'm on the road to Hell, which would be totally awkward considering I teach Sunday School and confirmation at my church.

 

One more issue. Someone mentioned pointing at pregnant teen girls and using them as examples of the consequences of sin. That's trashy. Stop doing that! It's mean and hurtful to those girls. I got knocked up before I was married. And I was only 19!!! Should I wear a scarlet "W" or "S" for life so all the good people know not to associate with me? And I'm sorry, but my CHILD was NOT a consequence. She was an unexpected, but much loved, blessing. The hateful, mean, judgemental comments I received while pregnant hurt me deeply. Those comments did more damage to me than my little "consequence". Of course, I did give birth to little Consequence when I was 20, so I wasn't actually a teen mom. Does that restore some of my Hymen Holiness?

My post about our friend said nothing remotely like what you typed above. She made a huge mistake that she deeply regrets and she does have consequences. She is a single mother. Her child has no father. She can't work without worrying about a sitter. And she had other consequences that are specific to our faith and her personal vow to live by Gods standards. That was very hurtful and brought reproach upon her, her parents, the congregation.

 

But she has worked hard to get right and make things right between her and God and whoever else she feels she owes an apology to. She is a good mother, her parents and grandparents are supporting her fully in all ways. Her now 18 month old baby is a joy to us all. No one has asked her to wear a scarlet letter.

[Joanne]

If a doctor normally considers it in their realm of influence to ask about it, it seems strange for religions to ignore it. I have been asked how many partners I've had and whether I am sexually active, mutually monogamous, and so forth, at the doctor's. I've been asked how many cups of coffee/ tea/alcohol/milk I drink, whether I use various drugs or smoke, and how much exercise I get. So to me, it is a part of our health, both physical and mental. And it does impact our lifes. So it does seem relevant as part of moral teachings.

 

What's next? Cautioning your child not to marry someone with only one previous partner? Cautioning your child not to marry someone who was a virgin before their first marriage that has now ended? Cautioning your child not to marry someone with only two previous partners? With too many partners? Is there now an equation of normality? By age 20, you should have had more than x partners but less than y. And be prepared to tell your POTENTIAL boyfriend/girlfriend's mother all about your sexual history! In detail. Because having had three partners isn't enough to rate as normal unless we go through the details with Mom. Talk about inappropriate and invasive and downright WEIRD.

 

e?

Wow and whoa. In addition to being a horrendous leap of logic, your "take" on my answer is hostile and assumptive.

 

Instead of framing my answer to a specific question as "not my values, but I get how she got there", you took an automatic hostile and adversarial and extreme stand against it.

 

My answer belies intentional, informed, engaged, value based decisions played out in a context of honest discussions and an open, close relationship. I am guessing you believe your approach to sex fills that criteria as well. I see how you got to yours; it honors your understanding of the God you believe in and it honors what you feel is appropriate parenting.

 

Based on your response, it seems that you accept - even for other families - nothing less than YOUR values on the topic. That's chill. Me? I see a wide variety of approaches that can be healthy and appropriate. I will try not to deconstruct yours to the insulting absurd as you did mine.

[Lucy]

"I personally find extended virginity.......unsettling. I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin OR a 20 something who has had many partners OR anyone who has unprotected sex" Wow. Really? All people should have sex before age 20? Someone who shows self control is somehow a warning flag? Maybe they haven't met someone they truly care about. Maybe they are a late bloomer. Maybe they had a long term relationship with a woman who wanted to wait and he respected her. Maybe they were focused on studying for their career or passions. There are many reasons a 20 year old could still be a virgin. And so, the perfect partner according to you, is someone who has had some experience, but not much - nice measuring stick - a bit vague though. My hubby and I were virgins when we married - age 25 and 26. Me due to religion. Him due to just personal choice when he was younger - religion for the last few years. He is a winner - the best guy ever - in and out of bed. You might want to reevaluate your measuring stick so you don't advise your kids to pass on a great love.

[Guest]

But, it seems that if nothing is said to a child/teen about sex other than the mechanics of it - meaning, no moral value is put on it - they are going to pick up the broader cultural messages which seem (in the US, anyway) to be: sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone. Maybe that is an extreme view but it is my perception. I'm not saying anyone here is teaching their kids that. Just trying to think how anyone teaches their kids about sex without including any comments about the appropriate expression of it. I understand people not feeling it's necessary to wait for marriage. But are there any limits? I am not trying to be snarky, I hope everyone can see that. I realize there is a lot of middle ground between "wait till marriage" and "whatever, whenever, with whomever" but I'm wondering how people convey that to their kids if there is no moral value attached to sex. It's not exactly like driving or drinking alcohol, kwim? Again, I'm genuinely curious about that and would like to be educated, not chastised, please.

I mostly agree with what Joanne posted.

 

To answer your question, kids (perhaps especially kids who are/have been homeschooled, spending large amounts of time with a parent) intuit many of their parents' standards by what they see and hear their parents endorse, or what earns parental censure. So if there is a news article or Dr. phil show or whatever, which depicts a guy who is 22, and has created six children with different women and is an on-location father to none, my kids see my response to that, they see and hear that I believe this is hurtful and/or not ideal for pretty much all parties. Through the comments we make, through the things we celebrate and the things we discourage, they can form an understanding of our values.

 

With my dd17, she and I have had many discussions about the Duggars and the courtship model and young marriage and starting a family with few/no marketable skills. So, through our conversations, she knows (and apparently agrees) with the things I think are negatives bout this lifestyle.

[Catwoman]

My boys are very goal oriented and very busy. Dd was the same way. All of them have had academic and extracurricular goals and activities that they chose to prioritize over dating. Dd the first year of college went to EMT school and carried 16 credit hours. The next year she carried 21 credits for a semester and then went to paramedic school while carrying 15 credits. She loved it, but did not have room for dating. She is now married to a lovely, amazing young man. It would have been sad if he had chosen to right her off because she was still a virgin. My sons are too busy trying to study for ACT's, win 4H awards, and build and fly complicated rockets to maintain any romances that lead to sex. It never occured to me that there would be parents who would actively discourage their children from dating them in college due to lack of sexual experience.

:iagree:

 

Also, I'm wondering how a parent would have that kind of information. It's not like we would be asking our grown children if the person they were dating was a virgin. Who would ever think to bring that up in conversation? It seems like such a non-issue to me.

 

I can understand asking if the person is nice, kind, and considerate, but I can't fathom asking if someone is a virgin. (And why would anyone think it was terrible if their boyfriend or girlfriend was a virgin? Why would they be viewed as some kind of freak? That makes no sense to me.)

 

None of my business. Period.

[vonfirmath]

Okay, this I understand. I still don't hear myself saying "sex is wonderful, but best saved for marriage," but I get what you're saying.

 

That's exactly the way sex was discussed in my house growing up.

[Hikin' Mama]

I love Jesus and all that, but I'm not a member of the "Hymen Holiness" club. I don't teach my girls to base their self-worth or basic Jesusness on their hymens. I don't teach my son to base his self-worth or basic Jesusness on his ability to keep it in his pants. If they choose to remain virgins until they're married, fine.

?

Teaching my children that I think it's best to keep sex within marriage does not equal the above. I've never even heard the concept, except for in this thread, and not by the posters who believe sex is best saved for a marriage relationship.

[hillfarm]

 

Wow that made people defensive.

 

 

Not so much defensive as surprised. And quick to set the record straight. We are fundamentalist Christians and that quote is 180º different from what we teach.

 

We teach that God invented sex and intends it to be a wonderful thing. It is part of the "glue" that helps hold marriages together. Continuing with the "glue" analogy, we also teach that just as a sticky note begins to lose its power the more times it is applied in different places, the bond created by sex becomes weaker if it is applied to multiple partners.

 

So no, we have not taught our dd that sex was bad or wrong, only that it is a powerful and wonderful thing if experienced as intended by its Creator.

[Hikin' Mama]

:iagree:

 

Also, I'm wondering how a parent would have that kind of information. It's not like we would be asking our grown children if the person they were dating was a virgin. Who would ever think to bring that up in conversation? It seems like such a non-issue to me.

 

I can understand asking if the person is nice, kind, and considerate, but I can't fathom asking if someone is a virgin. (And why would anyone think it was terrible if their boyfriend or girlfriend was a virgin? Why would they be viewed as some kind of freak? That makes no sense to me.)

 

None of my business. Period.

Ya, my boys dated a few girls. THAT is a question I have never and would never ask. : /

[mommaduck]

Teaching my children that I think it's best to keep sex within marriage does not equal the above. I've never even heard the concept, except for in this thread, and not by the posters who believe sex is best saved for a marriage relationship.

 

She's not saying that one cannot choose to wait for marriage for whatever reason. It's when one holds virginity up as an idol or a standard to judge another person by that there is an issue. BTW, it is a standard that is EXTREMELY hurtful to victims of sexual abuse and rape. 

[Scarlett]

She's not saying that one cannot choose to wait for marriage for whatever reason. It's when one holds virginity up as an idol or a standard to judge another person by that there is an issue. BTW, it is a standard that is EXTREMELY hurtful to victims of sexual abuse and rape. 

 

 

I do think it is important that we teach our kids that you can't lose your virginity from being raped.  And also that just because you do happen to lose your virginity (by your own sexual conduct) doesn't mean you can't stop having sex outside of marriage.

 

My poor mother was raped at 13 and never told anyone....so when her well meaning older sister told her it was important to stay a virgin my mom felt she was doomed.  :(  But all that comes from a culture of her time where no one talked about stuff.  I am still blown away mom didn't tell anyone she was raped.

[marbel]

I disagree that the US cultural message is  sex is a fun pastime that can be enjoyed anytime and with anyone. I think "most people" have opinions, values, and morals that are much more conservative than that description.

 

I think the disconnect with your perception and the reality of those who don't have a religious perspective is an assumption on your part that not having that religious based decision point means "we" allow, accept, or encourage sex.

 

I personally tell my kids that sex can be great and that their bodies are designed to want and enjoy it. I tell them that sex complicates most relationships, and therefore it is best to choose wisely and carefully in terms of sexual decisions: oral, intercourse, making out, etc. We have talked "all along" about sex, birth control. As they age and mature, we talk more about how and why including sex in a relationship can be an intense component of relationships. We talk directly about all aspects. I don't, however, believe that sex is always a complicator, or that casual sex is inherently a problem. There are cultures (Icelandic, for example) where very casual sex is the norm. I know I had some casual encounters with absolutely no regrets, issues, or problems.

 

I don't suggest limiting sex to "committed, monogamous" relationships because I think recreational sex is a decision many people will make during the lifespan. I want my kids to know that it is difficult to actually have FWB, or no strings attached sex and I want to be the one to help my kids determine their values and feelings around it.

 

My preferences would be for my kids to be closer to 20 than 10 as they begin to express physical intimacy. I personally find extended virginity.......unsettling. I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin OR a 20 something who has had many partners OR anyone who has unprotected sex.

 

Thanks for your reply.  I don't agree with all of it :001_smile: , particularly the last couple of sentences, but I appreciate the thoughtful response.

 

To the bolded:  I think I can see how you got that impression from my post.  Maybe I should not have used the word "morality" because of course I know people of all faiths and no faith who talk to their kids about sex and placing limits (for lack of a better word) on their activity, and very specifically.  So I don't think a religious perspective is necessary and I would not assume that people who are not religious espouse the "anytime anyone anywhere" philosophy toward sex. 

 

 

[Guest]

  

 

Not so much defensive as surprised. And quick to set the record straight. We are fundamentalist Christians and that quote is 180º different from what we teach.

 

We teach that God invented sex and intends it to be a wonderful thing. It is part of the "glue" that helps hold marriages together. Continuing with the "glue" analogy, we also teach that just as a sticky note begins to lose its power the more times it is applied in different places, the bond created by sex becomes weaker if it is applied to multiple partners.

 

So no, we have not taught our dd that sex was bad or wrong, only that it is a powerful and wonderful thing if experienced as intended by its Creator.

Yeah, I have heard the glue analogy and I don't agree with it, nor want my children to think this way. By that logic, a woman who lost her husband early in life is tarnished because of all the sticky she left on the man she loved first. Or some one who was divorced. If my husband wanted to divorce me, I cannot prevent him - so, would I just be an unstickable sticky note because I spent 20 years with him?

 

Anyway, IME, sex does not work this way. I was not a V when I met/married dh, and neither was he. Whatever our prior experiences were, they don't inform our life or marriage now. (I realize this would be different if either of us had an STD or children previously, but I am speaking more to the idea that it is damaging to a future marriage to have loved, cared about, or been intimate with others previously.) i don't care that he once loved a different girl and thought they might marry; things went wrong, they split up, and I met him.

[mommaduck]

I do think it is important that we teach our kids that you can't lose your virginity from being raped.  

 

What the heck?! Is your biology different than the rest of humanity?

[Scarlett]

Yeah, I have heard the glue analogy and I don't agree with it, nor want my children to think this way. By that logic, a woman who lost her husband early in life is tarnished because of all the sticky she left on the man she loved first. Or some one who was divorced. If my husband wanted to divorce me, I cannot prevent him - so, would I just be an unstickable sticky note because I spent 20 years with him?

 

Anyway, IME, sex does not work this way. I was not a V when I met/married dh, and neither was he. Whatever our prior experiences were, they don't inform our life or marriage now. (I realize this would be different if either of us had an STD or children previously, but I am speaking more to the idea that it is damaging to a future marriage to have loved, cared about, or been intimate with others previously.) i don't care that he once loved a different girl and thought they might marry; things went wrong, they split up, and I met him.

 

 

I like the glue expression.  :)  Honestly it is probably the only thing that kept me and first husband together....but trust me I had no trouble unsticking from him when I divorced him.  My current dh and I are stuck like glue for sure...and it doesn't bug me that he once loved his first wife and even made babies with her.  Just today I found a big pile of their family pictures that he just doesn't know what to do with.  I know that was his life then and it is over and we have a great one now.  

 

I would feel differently about him if he had been out sleeping with every woman in town before he met me.

[Scarlett]

What the heck?! Is your biology different than the rest of humanity?

 

 

:/  Of course I understand physical virginity.  

[Hikin' Mama]

She's not saying that one cannot choose to wait for marriage for whatever reason. It's when one holds virginity up as an idol or a standard to judge another person by that there is an issue. BTW, it is a standard that is EXTREMELY hurtful to victims of sexual abuse and rape.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but my point was that you (general you) can teach your children that you think it's best for them to wait to have sex until they are married without making virginity an idol or a way to judge others. We've never made virginity an idol or a way to judge other people. Quite frankly, other people's virginity is none of my business. And to repeat, this is a concept that I have never heard of. I agree with you that it would be incredibly hurtful and damaging to a victim of rape or sexual abuse.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

One more issue. Someone mentioned pointing at pregnant teen girls and using them as examples of the consequences of sin. That's trashy. Stop doing that! It's mean and hurtful to those girls. I got knocked up before I was married. And I was only 19!!! Should I wear a scarlet "W" or "S" for life so all the good people know not to associate with me? And I'm sorry, but my CHILD was NOT a consequence. She was an unexpected, but much loved, blessing. The hateful, mean, judgemental comments I received while pregnant hurt me deeply. Those comments did more damage to me than my little "consequence". Of course, I did give birth to little Consequence when I was 20, so I wasn't actually a teen mom. Does that restore some of my Hymen Holiness?

 

I'm sorry you were the target of nasty comments.   I don't think anyone was talking about that.  Sure, I talk to my teens about young single moms we know who have hard lives because of decisions they made, or didn't make.  That doesn't mean we mistreat the mother or her kids.  But kids and teens do learn by observing.  So what my kids observe is a young woman who has a tough life because she had two kids at a young age with no idea of who the fathers are.  My kids also observe people helping them and loving them.  Heck, my daughter helps babysit them.  We are not hating on them or asking their mom to wear a scarlet letter.  But yes I am going to use real life examples to my help educate my children. 

 

For that matter, I use my own real l life mistakes to help educate them.  

 

[mommaduck]

:/  Of course I understand physical virginity.  

 

Which is what we are talking about. Virginity and innocence can be entirely different subjects.

[mommaduck]

Maybe I wasn't clear, but my point was that you (general you) can teach your children that you think it's best for them to wait to have sex until they are married without making virginity an idol or a way to judge others. We've never made virginity an idol or a way to judge other people. Quite frankly, other people's virginity is none of my business. And to repeat, this is a concept that I have never heard of. I agree with you that it would be incredibly hurtful and damaging to a victim of rape or sexual abuse.

 

Unfortunately, many people do and many here have been raised under such. You recognise it in particular phrases and comments on here as well.

[GWOB]

She's not saying that one cannot choose to wait for marriage for whatever reason. It's when one holds virginity up as an idol or a standard to judge another person by that there is an issue. BTW, it is a standard that is EXTREMELY hurtful to victims of sexual abuse and rape.

Exactly. I have no problem with people waiting until marriage. I think it's great! I have a HUGE problem with people elevating sexual "sin" over all the other ones. Honestly, I'd rather have my kids be teen parents than self-righteous, prideful, judgmental meanies. I don't think being a virgin on your wedding night gives you a license to judge. I'm pretty sure Jesus said "Blessed are the meek," not "Blessed are the virgins on their wedding night."

 

I do not want to come across as disparaging those who wait for marriage. As I said above, I think that's great! I am in no way weirded out by 20yo virgins. I'm actually weirded out by people who are weirded out by 20yo virgins. I just don't think enough about other people's genitals and where they've been to get weirded out.

[Scarlett]

Which is what we are talking about. Virginity and innocence can be entirely different subjects.

 

 

Wait--we are only talking about physical virginiity?  So engaging in oral sex or sodomy would not be losing ones virginity?

 

Well, I told you that word has never been a focus of ours.  Because a technical virgin can be very immoral and a technical non virgin can be totally innocent.

[Impish]

I'm married to Wolf.

 

Bring on the animalistic, Baby! ROWR!

 

As far as the kids go, I stress waiting. The kids see Wolf and I being loving and affectionate, so they know it's not shameful. But, I was a single Mom. I know how hard, terrifying, and soul wearying that can be. (It was for me, not saying it is for everyone). I know how much better (for *me*) it was to have a co-parent, a partner, a husband.

 

So, for that reason, I encourage my children to be sure they're w/someone that, if they're not married to, they could handle parenting with. "Do you want this person as the parent of your child?" if not, then maybe rethinking making the beast with two backs is a wise idea.

[Hikin' Mama]

Exactly. I have no problem with people waiting until marriage. I think it's great! I have a HUGE problem with people elevating sexual "sin" over all the other ones. Honestly, I'd rather have my kids be teen parents than self-righteous, prideful, judgmental meanies. I don't think being a virgin on your wedding night gives you a license to judge. I'm pretty sure Jesus said "Blessed are the meek," not "Blessed are the virgins on their wedding night."

 

I do not want to come across as disparaging those who wait for marriage. As I said above, I think that's great! I am in no way weirded out by 20yo virgins. I'm actually weirded out by people who are weirded out by 20yo virgins. I just don't think enough about other people's genitals and where they've been to get weirded out.

I misunderstood your post above, the first one I responded to. Thanks for clarifying. :) And I agree with you!

[mommaduck]

Wait--we are only talking about physical virginiity?  So engaging in oral sex or sodomy would not be losing ones virginity?

 

Well, I told you that word has never been a focus of ours.  Because a technical virgin can be very immoral and a technical non virgin can be totally innocent.

 

Absolutely! And that is a big problem in holding virginity up as THE standard.

 

Growing up Baptist...I can't tell you how many of our youth were virgins, but not anywhere close to being chaste.

[Impish]

Exactly. I have no problem with people waiting until marriage. I think it's great! I have a HUGE problem with people elevating sexual "sin" over all the other ones. Honestly, I'd rather have my kids be teen parents than self-righteous, prideful, judgmental meanies. I don't think being a virgin on your wedding night gives you a license to judge. I'm pretty sure Jesus said "Blessed are the meek," not "Blessed are the virgins on their wedding night."

 

I do not want to come across as disparaging those who wait for marriage. As I said above, I think that's great! I am in no way weirded out by 20yo virgins. I'm actually weirded out by people who are weirded out by 20yo virgins. I just don't think enough about other people's genitals and where they've been to get weirded out.

With six kids, it's been suggested that perhaps I ought to pay more attention to where my genitals are at.

 

I informed them that's why I have six kids ;)

[ktgrok]

 

 

My preferences would be for my kids to be closer to 20 than 10 as they begin to express physical intimacy. I personally find extended virginity.......unsettling. I would caution my adult kids from getting involved with a 20-something virgin OR a 20 something who has had many partners OR anyone who has unprotected sex.

 

Huh? You usually make some pretty smart observations, but that's just ridiculous. Someone who is in their twenties, and has chosen to avoid the VERY real complications that a sexual relationship brings, is someone to be avoided? I'd like to think MOST people who are still in school/college will abstain from sex if they are not ready to begin a family. Seems prudent, not something to be cautious of. 

 

I mean seriously, wait until close to twenty to have sex, but don't have sex with anyone that is over twenty that didn't have sex, or that had sex too much? You don't hear how silly that sounds? How many sexual partners, exactly is the right number for a 22 year old? 

[hillfarm]

 

Yeah, I have heard the glue analogy and I don't agree with it, nor want my children to think this way. By that logic, a woman who lost her husband early in life is tarnished because of all the sticky she left on the man she loved first. Or some one who was divorced. If my husband wanted to divorce me, I cannot prevent him - so, would I just be an unstickable sticky note because I spent 20 years with him?

 

Anyway, IME, sex does not work this way. I was not a V when I met/married dh, and neither was he. Whatever our prior experiences were, they don't inform our life or marriage now. (I realize this would be different if either of us had an STD or children previously, but I am speaking more to the idea that it is damaging to a future marriage to have loved, cared about, or been intimate with others previously.) i don't care that he once loved a different girl and thought they might marry; things went wrong, they split up, and I met him.

 

 

I am not talking about a remarriage or even a divorce situation. I am talking about multiple partners. IMO, it is impossible to deny that the relationship bond formed with only one person in a marriage situation will be stronger than the relationship bonds formed with multiple partners in uncommitted relationships.Nor am I saying that the bond cannot be strong in other relationships. Only that it is strongest in a marriage situation.