Okay, I'll start this one.... if you've had doubts but stayed a Christian, why did you stay?

[kentuckymom]

As someone said on the "Why did you leave Christianity?" thread, this one was inevitable at some point, so I figured I might as well be the one to start it :).

 

I've had a lot of doubts about my faith. I still do. The Bible is often contradictory and confusing (even outside the book of Revelation). A lot of horrible stuff has been done in the name of Christ. A lot of Christians are bigoted jerks. But ultimately none of this has driven me away.

 

The reasons I've stayed are many, but I'll outline a few:

 

1) I've had a number of experiences that I put down to God's intervention: things happening right after I prayed about them, people praying for me about things they shouldn't have known outside of inspiration from the Holy Spirit, going to church and hearing a message that addressed exactly the thing I was struggling with at that moment.

 

2) From what I've studied, most religions seem kind of ridiculous when you get right down to it. Christianity seems less ridiculous to me than any of the other religions I've studied, and it has at least some corroborated history to back it up.

 

3) This is the most important one: The people I admire the most, those I want to be like in my old age, those who have raised kids I hope my kids will be like, even those younger than me whom I greatly admire, all these people are Christians. Yes, it's partly the circles I run in, but I know plenty of nonChristians as well. Heck, 3/4 of my immediate family members are nonChristians. They're all great people in many ways, but I don't aspire to be like them. The people I aspire to be like are the mature believers I know, many who have been through much more struggle and doubt than I have but have come out the other side still believing that God is faithful.

[Carol in Cal.]

I came at it from the other side.

I couldn't imagine a universe without a Creator.

It seemed impossible that God didn't exist--nonsensical.

And if there was a God, Christianity had to be right about everything else, too.  Not to say that other faiths don't posit a God, but not convincingly.

 

ETA:  At least, that was how I perceived the process.  But really, I believe, what happened was the God pulled me to Him.  "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

[Ann.without.an.e]

Maybe y'all have noticed that I stay away from religious and political threads.

This board is full of many, many amazing peeps but often the more vocal are not on the side of Christianity. That is ok. I love y'all anyway and you have enough other redeeming qualities that I'll keep you :D

 

Christianity and the identification of who is and isn't a Christian can be very confusing. For some, it is religious. It is their "moral code", how they were raised, etc., but for others it is something entirely different.

I don't expect most who read this to understand what I am about to say. Some of you will know exactly what I mean.

For me, it is about regeneration. You see, I wasn't raised in a believing home or told that there was a God or that i was separated from Him because of my sin....but somehow I knew it anyway. Then at points in my young life I was told the gospel...that I was a sinner but that Jesus died to pay for that sin. I didn't get it. It didn't click for me. Until it did. When it did, I was heart broken, repentant, and in love with the true God that i saw in that moment. I knew I was regenerated. When that happens it is like removing someone's very being and replacing it. I honestly doubt that someone who has ever experienced true regeneration can simply walk away for good. Maybe I am wrong? I don't claim to have all of the answers. I do know that I was lost but now I am found. I was blind but now I see. I am different in a way that cannot be explained and I seek to know God because of His Spirit within me.

 

I don't think that my "experience" with God makes me superior to anyone. It is just is who I am.

[sheryl]

Maybe y'all have noticed that I stay away from religious and political threads.

This board is full of many, many amazing peeps but often the more vocal are not on the side of Christianity. That is ok. I am not who I am in order to please the WTM ;)

 

Christianity and the identification of who is and isn't a Christian can be very confusing. For some, it is religious. It is their "moral code", how they were raised, etc. for others it is something entirely different.

I don't expect most who read this to understand what I am about to say. Some of you will know exactly what I mean.

For me, it is about regeneration. You see, I wasn't raised in a believing home or told that there was a God or that i was separated from Him because of my sin....but somehow I knew it anyway. Then at points in my young life I was told the gospel...that I was a sinner but that Jesus died to pay for that sin. I didn't get it. It didn't click for me. Until it did. When it did, I was heart broken, repentant, and in love with the true God that i saw in that moment. I knew I was regenerated. When that happens it is like removing someone's very being and replacing it. I honestly doubt that someone who has ever experienced true regeneration can simply walk away for good. Maybe I am wrong? I don't claim to have all of the answers. I do know that I was lost but now I am found. I was blind but now I see. I am different in a way that cannot be explained and I seek to know God because of His Spirit within me.

 

I don't think that my "experience" with God makes me superior to anyone. It is just is who I am.

Yes, this.  You rock, sister!   We are all alienated and separated from God.  His Son "chose" to pay the ONLY sacrifice so that we could be restored/regenerated in Him.

[marbel]

Yes to all of the above. I've had many times of doubt.  I still do.  But I always come back to Christ.  But I don't, and have never, pretended to have all the answers or that all the answers are available to human understanding. Origin of the universe, evolution, etc?  None of that bothers me.  I simply can't see how the world came to be without God as creator. 

 

Today my kids opened some geodes (also known as thundereggs for the Oregonians on the board :-) ) which is an ugly rock that when cracked open, reveals beautiful crystals inside.  We had some young relatives visiting so we did it for them.  They were enchanted.  And while I can appreciate the scientific explanation for how they are formed, I can go back further and imagine a creator putting these processes in place for our delight.  Just like hummingbirds, Love in a Mist, and other natural delights were created and not just random happenstance.   

 

There have also been things that happened in my life that looking back, were clearly the work of another hand in my life, not coincidence.  And yes, even things that were bad at the time.

 

 

[sheryl]

Yes to all of the above. I've had many times of doubt.  I still do.  But I always come back to Christ.  But I don't, and have never, pretended to have all the answers or that all the answers are available to human understanding. Origin of the universe, evolution, etc?  None of that bothers me.  I simply can't see how the world came to be without God as creator. 

 

Today my kids opened some geodes (also known as thundereggs for the Oregonians on the board :-) ) which is an ugly rock that when cracked open, reveals beautiful crystals inside.  We had some young relatives visiting so we did it for them.  They were enchanted.  And while I can appreciate the scientific explanation for how they are formed, I can go back further and imagine a creator putting these processes in place for our delight.  Just like hummingbirds, Love in a Mist, and other natural delights were created and not just random happenstance.   

 

There have also been things that happened in my life that looking back, were clearly the work of another hand in my life, not coincidence.  And yes, even things that were bad at the time.

Excellent!

[Ann.without.an.e]

Yes to all of the above. I've had many times of doubt.  I still do.  But I always come back to Christ.  But I don't, and have never, pretended to have all the answers or that all the answers are available to human understanding. Origin of the universe, evolution, etc?  None of that bothers me.  I simply can't see how the world came to be without God as creator. 

 

 And while I can appreciate the scientific explanation for how they are formed, I can go back further and imagine a creator putting these processes in place for our delight.  Just like hummingbirds, Love in a Mist, and other natural delights were created and not just random happenstance.   

 

There have also been things that happened in my life that looking back, were clearly the work of another hand in my life, not coincidence.  And yes, even things that were bad at the time.

 

 

I could have written the above.  I don't really even get into the evolution vs creation debate.  I know there is a creator.  I just do.  I can't explain it scientifically.  I don't think we can draw conclusions concerning exactly how the earth came to be.  Both sides are grasping for straws, in my opinion.

[Dory]

If you took out the word Christian there, I would say that the concept of an objective mind that put together all this, the underlying ideas and consistencies throughout the entire world, and the knowledge that people seem healthier when they believe in something beyond themselves has made me not reject the concept of God completely. I just haven't figured out where to go from there.

[Dory]

Oh, and I don't want to chuck out Scripture just yet because there is enough historical accuracy to it that it deserves to be considered heavily. I just am not sure what to do with it yet.

[school17777]

 

ETA:  At least, that was how I perceived the process.  But really, I believe, what happened was the God pulled me to Him.  "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

Where is this quote from?  This is exactly what I have been trying to share with someone, but I wasn't finding the right words.

[bethben]

I've experience "coincidental" and physical realities of Jesus in my life. These got me through a very rough patch in my life. I would have always believed in God as creator, but what kind of God is He? After two years of infetility and praying for a child, I gave birth to a child with severe disabilities. I had to come to a point of is this God I've been serving who He says He is in the Bible or is He bad? If He was bad, there's is no reason to spend my life on Him. I have chosen to believe He is who He says He is- a good God. We cannot see the whole picture and can really only see a small part of it here on earth. We truly see through a veil. I have had very good reasons to leave my faith besides a Christian acted hypocritical or the church stinks. I dont have answers to suffering- only that God doesn't give evil things. God is good. I am always willing to dialog about this stuff in a pm. I have no problems with questions or downright anger toward God. Been there done that, have reached the other side.

[kentuckymom]

Here's another reason I forgot in my initial post, let's see if I can articulate it understandably:

 

What your religious worldview is effects what kind of world you believe you live in. There are many choices. I don't like the Atheist choice, wherein, as I see it, the world does not exist for any particular purpose and you just need to do your best to live well and enjoy life during your short time on the planet. I can't say that I've thoroughly investigated the view of the world that other religions offer, but I've looked around a bit, and the Christian one (or at least my understanding thereof) is always the one I come back to. I want to live a world created by a loving God. I want to live a world where what I do and say has meaning to said loving Creator. And, most importantly, I want to live a world where the creator is a redeemer who will eventually redeem all things and create a new earth that is free of the all the flaws of the old earth. Does this redemption of all things mean that God will ultimately redeem all people? I don't know. I hope so.

[LazyDazy]

Because...what if I left and in the end it turned out that I was wrong? Better to stick with it, doubts and all, for eternity sake. 

 

The decisions I make and the way I live my life could be attributed to faith or to a moral standard that I would follow regardless of my faith or lack thereof. Leaving the faith doesn't appear to have any benefits for me. What would be my motivation? So I stay.

 

I realize this makes me sound like a "lazy" Christian and honestly I'm okay with that. What I won't do is pretend to be more ("a stronger Christian"?) than I am (or feel that I am).

[AMJ]

Just here to listen, if that's all right!

[Carol in Cal.]

Where is this quote from?  This is exactly what I have been trying to share with someone, but I wasn't finding the right words.

 

The quote is the explanation of the Third Article of the Apostles' Creed in the Lutheran Small Catechism.  I quoted it from memory, but I think it was right.

 

The whole thing:

 

I believe in the Holy Ghost, one holy Christian Church, the Communion of Saints, the Forgiveness of Sin, the Resurrection of the Body, and the Life Everlasting.

 

What does this mean?  (my edit--this is a recurring catechetical question. It's sense is more 'what does this imply?' or 'what significance does this have?)

 

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

[Χά�ων]

Just here to listen, if that's all right!

This as well. 

 

Are questions welcome? If not, no biggie and I do not have any questions right now but as my mom took DS to watch airplanes take off and land at the airport so I could spend the day cleaning. I am sure I will not be productive by poking around the forums. :)

 

 

ETA: If not I will not be offended and will respect that. I just wanted to ask first. :)

[BrookValley.]

Just here to listen, if that's all right!

 

Me, too! I'm enjoying the other thread quite a bit, and I'm very interested in the POV of those who have doubts/doubted but stayed, too.

[AlmiraGulch]

Count me in as another who is interested in hearing what is said here.

 

I also have a question, and I'm going to go ahead and ask, but if it isn't welcomed here please just ignore it.  Lest someone question the intent, it is a real, true question, has been one since I self-identified as Christian, and one I've never been able to resolve satisfactorily.  

 

 "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

My question is, what about everyone else?  Why has everyone else not been called?  Since one's own reason and strength really has nothing to do with it, then why hasn't everyone else been called, too?   Similarly, how is it that some have been let to leave the faith, if their own reason and strength are powerless to the call of Christ?

 

 

 

 

[VaKim]

Because God won't let me go. 

 

 

John 6:37-40New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.â€

[kentuckymom]

I think respectful questions are just fine.

 

AmiraGulch, I can't answer your question, because, the thing is, not all Christians believe this. I'm a Methodist. John Wesley taught about something called "prevenient grace," which basically means "grace that goes before," that is, before belief. Basically God offers grace to all people and is in some way at work in the lives of all people, even before they believe, and even if they never believe. According to Wesleyan salvation theology, it is our choice whether we respond to that offer and accept saving and sanctifying grace. 

 

Why do some people leave? Free will. God wants to woo us as a lover, not kidnap us. All that said, it still leaves the question of why an omniscient God creates people He knows will never answer His call. That's why I hope that there's some way God will eventually redeem all people, but I don't have a good answer to how that could happen that stays within orthodox theology.

[Meadowlark]

Because each of the 6 times I was pregnant, I was baffled, and completely awestruck at what was happening inside of my womb. I was amazed by God's work for the first time in my life. Each child starting off as a little cell and the absolute MIRACLE that it is when you see that newborn life come into the world. I knew it before I was a mom, but I FELT it inside of me and never doubted God again. A perfect little life...the complexity of the human body...whoa. It still baffles me!

[sheryl]

I think respectful questions are just fine.

 

AmiraGulch, I can't answer your question, because, the thing is, not all Christians believe this. I'm a Methodist. John Wesley taught about something called "prevenient grace," which basically means "grace that goes before," that is, before belief. Basically God offers grace to all people and is in some way at work in the lives of all people, even before they believe, and even if they never believe. According to Wesleyan salvation theology, it is our choice whether we respond to that offer and accept saving and sanctifying grace. 

 

Why do some people leave? Free will. God wants to woo us as a lover, not kidnap us. All that said, it still leaves the question of why an omniscient God creates people He knows will never answer His call. That's why I hope that there's some way God will eventually redeem all people, but I don't have a good answer to how that could happen that stays within orthodox theology.

YES!  This "IS" it, Amira Gulch and any others.   It's God's "free" will.  It can NOT be bought, bartered, earned.  It is a gift.  I "feel" unworthy of this "GIFT", but it's my faith that gladly accepts it.  My faith says to go ahead and accept the gift.  It's hard for people, I think, to come to terms with this profound yet simple equation.  We "feel" like we should "give something back".   No, He doesn't expect payment.   We couldn't pay b/c there is not enough payment to equal the life of Jesus.   Christians are far from perfect, but we "try".  Do we fail?  Yes.  But, through prayer, reading AND APPLYING the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to work within us, our focus is less self-centered and more Christ-centered. 

 

 He will NOT force Himeself on anyone, but.....reread what Kentucky wrote. :)

[AlmiraGulch]

I think respectful questions are just fine.

 

AmiraGulch, I can't answer your question, because, the thing is, not all Christians believe this. I'm a Methodist. John Wesley taught about something called "prevenient grace," which basically means "grace that goes before," that is, before belief. Basically God offers grace to all people and is in some way at work in the lives of all people, even before they believe, and even if they never believe. According to Wesleyan salvation theology, it is our choice whether we respond to that offer and accept saving and sanctifying grace. 

 

Why do some people leave? Free will. God wants to woo us as a lover, not kidnap us. All that said, it still leaves the question of why an omniscient God creates people He knows will never answer His call. That's why I hope that there's some way God will eventually redeem all people, but I don't have a good answer to how that could happen that stays within orthodox theology.

 

 

YES!  This "IS" it, Amira Gulch and any others.   It's God's "free" will.  It can NOT be bought, bartered, earned.  It is a gift.  I "feel" unworthy of this "GIFT", but it's my faith that gladly accepts it.  My faith says to go ahead and accept the gift.  It's hard for people, I think, to come to terms with this profound yet simple equation.  We "feel" like we should "give something back".   No, He doesn't expect payment.   We couldn't pay b/c there is not enough payment to equal the life of Jesus.   Christians are far from perfect, but we "try".  Do we fail?  Yes.  But, through prayer, reading AND APPLYING the Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to work within us, our focus is less self-centered and more Christ-centered. 

 

 He will NOT force Himeself on anyone, but.....reread what Kentucky wrote. :)

 

I appreciate both of you taking the time to respond.

 

I still don't understand, though, how it relates to that quote I posted.  This one:

 

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

Because here's how it reads to me.  To me, it's saying that somehow, you were chosen by Jesus to come to him.  Drawn.  Not through your own power, but really, that you were powerless and unable to resist, and through his own gift, not through any works or will or decision or effort of your own, you were kept in his faith.  I don't see how any of that reconciles with exercising free will to turn away.  I also don't understand why some are chosen to remain in the faith, and some apparently are not, particularly if Jesus died for everyone's sins.  

 

I just don't get it.  

[Carol in Cal.]

Count me in as another who is interested in hearing what is said here.

 

I also have a question, and I'm going to go ahead and ask, but if it isn't welcomed here please just ignore it.  Lest someone question the intent, it is a real, true question, has been one since I self-identified as Christian, and one I've never been able to resolve satisfactorily.  

 

 "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

My question is, what about everyone else?  Why has everyone else not been called?  Since one's own reason and strength really has nothing to do with it, then why hasn't everyone else been called, too?   Similarly, how is it that some have been let to leave the faith, if their own reason and strength are powerless to the call of Christ?

 

This is one of the difficult questions of Christianity, and hard to answer also.

 

The quote is a Lutheran one, and the Lutheran way of resolving that question is basically to take a bucket and gather up all the teachings in the Bible about predestination and believe them, and take another one and gather up all the teachings of the Bible about being able to resist and/or turn from God's grace and believe them, too.

 

Where that lands us is that we can't choose to believe in God--He enables that, entirely.  But we can choose not to.  He doesn't prevent that, but He does not will it either. 

[Hunter's Moon]

Because I trust the Church to guide me.

 

I tried, many times, to walk away. But I know the Church to be True, so I choose to align my beliefs with Her beliefs.

 

That probably doesn't seem very satisfying to many people, but it is one of the most comforting things I have experienced in my life.

 

I am one who will choose the least "locked-in" choice. I like choices that can easily be changed. I have to continually choose to submit to the Church, and through those times of submission, I find a deep and unending love.

[Cindy in FL.]

I believe that God, as the Trinity, has existed for all time and that God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit had communion and fellowship together. God's desire was to share that beautiful fellowship so He created mankind. Adam and Eve had perfect communion with God until they sinned in the Garden of Eden, thereby breaking that communion and leaving all subsequent humans at odds with God. Adam and Eve had free will, as do the rest of us, and they chose to sin. However, in our fallen state we will not choose God. It is not in our nature to do so. Unless God first intervenes we will not accept Him.

 

I've heard it said that we are not dead in our sins, but only mostly dead (Princess Bride!). So, when we are thrown the life preserver of the Gospel we can reach out and take it. My understanding is that we are all absolutely dead in our transgressions and sins and are therefore unable to help ourselves in any way. The Holy Spirit first quickens us and then we are able to grab hold of the help extended to us.

 

Some believe that God predestined (not based on anything within us) who would believe ("Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."), some believe we are not dead in our sins and can choose or not choose as we so desire, some believe that God looked out over all of time and saw who would believe and chose those people. I believe that the first is true, though I acknowledge it is a difficult concept.

 

There are two sides to the same coin: you can look at it that we all deserve death and God is merciful to choose any of us or that God is unmerciful in condemning any of us. Some of us are getting what we deserve (condemnation) and some of us are getting what we don't deserve (mercy).

 

It can all seem to make God out to be this really unloving, horrible entity. But, I don't believe that is true. He created the world and had rules for the way it should run. We defied those rules. Even within the story of Noah we see that Noah told the people for years upon years what was going to happen so that they might repent and be saved. It's not as if God said only Noah and his family and the animals could go on the ark. Anyone who believed would have been welcomed. They chose not to believe. They didn't accept His mercy.

 

God sent His only Son to die in our place (which Jesus did willingly because He loves us). Imagine the pain and sorrow that must have cost the Father and the agony that Jesus endured. Mercy again.

 

As far as someone losing their faith (eternally), I do not believe that is possible.

 

I hope this isn't as convoluted as I suspect it is.

 

 

Count me in as another who is interested in hearing what is said here.

 

I also have a question, and I'm going to go ahead and ask, but if it isn't welcomed here please just ignore it. Lest someone question the intent, it is a real, true question, has been one since I self-identified as Christian, and one I've never been able to resolve satisfactorily.

 

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him. But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

My question is, what about everyone else? Why has everyone else not been called? Since one's own reason and strength really has nothing to do with it, then why hasn't everyone else been called, too? Similarly, how is it that some have been let to leave the faith, if their own reason and strength are powerless to the call of Christ?

[marbel]

I appreciate both of you taking the time to respond.

 

I still don't understand, though, how it relates to that quote I posted.  This one:

 

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

Because here's how it reads to me.  To me, it's saying that somehow, you were chosen by Jesus to come to him.  Drawn.  Not through your own power, but really, that you were powerless and unable to resist, and through his own gift, not through any works or will or decision or effort of your own, you were kept in his faith.  I don't see how any of that reconciles with exercising free will to turn away.  I also don't understand why some are chosen to remain in the faith, and some apparently are not, particularly if Jesus died for everyone's sins.  

 

I just don't get it.  

 

This really is one of the central questions.  I am not sure anything gets it, even theological scholars. 

 

My perspective is that on a day-to-day basis we can resist God's will - meaning, we can sin.  But in the big picture (for lack of a more elegant term), if God wants us, he will have us.   It is not a matter of a person praying a certain prayer, but being fully regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  This could happen any time in a person's life.  It can happen over a period of time.  I have called myself a Christian my whole life but it has only been in the past 20 years that I feel I have understood what that really meant in my life.  Others have a much more dramatic moment (Paul on the road to Damascus). 

 

This can seem horrible:  how can I be sure I am chosen?  What about my kids and other loved ones?  What about my best friend?  What if someone dies without knowing Christ?  But we really do not know how all this works.  Whenever I am worried about a loved one, I remember the thief on the cross (and I'm sorry but I don't remember which gospel that is in) who didn't come to accept Christ until right before death.  Perhaps that will be the case for, say, my brother, who struggles with belief.  Or a friend who is agnostic but seems to be running from God, afraid to get sucked into believing but seeking answers all the time.

 

It seems like a copout, I'm sure, to say "oh, it's just a mystery and we can't understand it all."   But, in many ways that is true. 

 

And of course this is my perspective, unfortunately there are going to be many different ones.  It would be nice if we could all settle on one thing, wouldn't it?  (I don't mean unfortunate as in "mine is the right one" but just that there is so much disagreement.) 

[milovany]

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith." ........

 

...... I just don't get it.  

 

I don't think Jesus (God) picks and chooses who He he draws; I think it is His desire and that He attempts to draw all to Himself, to fullness of life.  I think the above quote comes from a "reformed" perspective if I'm not mistaken.  The ancient, earliest perspective of the Church was that God wants all to come to Him. What of those who haven't heard the good news of Christ?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of those who have heard the good news of Christ and have rejected it?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of me and my attempt to draw near to Him in faith?  He is loving, and merciful, and knows my heart -- which actually is a little frightening, because I daily have a peek at my heart, too, and it's not always pretty, so I "press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."  That's all I can do -- when I fall, get back up again. The saints through the ages have provided abundant example of this for me and us all. 

 

Back to the quote: I know someone who believed reformed theology -- who loves God very much, who is a far better and more faithful Christian than I -- who felt like maybe she wasn't one of the elect.  She was in tears feeling like she DID love God, had spent most of her life wanting to love and serve Him, but because of some things happening in her life, believed that perhaps she wasn't one of God's chosen after all.  It was very painful to comprehend and watch.  It's a big part of the reason I can't comprehend the theology and am thankful historical record shows it's not part of the earliest form of Christianity. 

[AlmiraGulch]

I don't think Jesus (God) picks and chooses who He he draws; I think it is His desire and that He attempts to draw all to Himself, to fullness of life.  I think the above quote comes from a "reformed" perspective if I'm not mistaken.  The ancient, earliest perspective of the Church was that God wants all to come to Him. What of those who haven't heard the good news of Christ?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of those who have heard the good news of Christ and have rejected it?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of me and my attempt to draw near to Him in faith?  He is loving, and merciful, and knows my heart -- which actually is a little frightening, because I daily have a peek at my heart, too, and it's not always pretty, so I "press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."  That's all I can do -- when I fall, get back up again. The saints through the ages have provided abundant example of this for me and us all. 

 

Back to the quote: I know someone who believed reformed theology -- who loves God very much, who is a far better and more faithful Christian than I -- who felt like maybe she wasn't one of the elect.  She was in tears feeling like she DID love God, had spent most of her life wanting to love and serve Him, but because of some things happening in her life, believed that perhaps she wasn't one of God's chosen after all.  It was very painful to comprehend and watch.  It's a big part of the reason I can't comprehend the theology and am thankful historical record shows it's not part of the earliest form of Christianity. 

 

Thanks, Milovany.  Nice response.  

[milovany]

Because...what if I left and in the end it turned out that I was wrong? Better to stick with it, doubts and all, for eternity sake. 

 

The decisions I make and the way I live my life could be attributed to faith or to a moral standard that I would follow regardless of my faith or lack thereof. Leaving the faith doesn't appear to have any benefits for me. What would be my motivation? So I stay.

 

I realize this makes me sound like a "lazy" Christian and honestly I'm okay with that. What I won't do is pretend to be more ("a stronger Christian"?) than I am (or feel that I am).

 

I love this terribly honest answer, and I share in it sometimes, too.  Thank you for being so bold to post it. Sometimes my thinking is like this: "If I leave the church I'm in, I'm done with Christianity altogether. Well, that's a route I choose not to take, so I stay. I'd rather stay here where I am, ever growing in the faith that I do have, rather than disrupting my whole life -- and possibly eternity -- by leaving."  I trust that God understands and sees my heart and that I continue to choose to believe in Him by aligning myself with the church and living the life she has given us (continual self-examination and repentance, going to Liturgy, receiving the Eucharist, participating in all the sacraments, praying the cycle of prayers she's given us, living at peace with others or striving to, etc.)

[marbel]

I don't think Jesus (God) picks and chooses who He he draws; I think it is His desire and that He attempts to draw all to Himself, to fullness of life.  I think the above quote comes from a "reformed" perspective if I'm not mistaken.  The ancient, earliest perspective of the Church was that God wants all to come to Him. What of those who haven't heard the good news of Christ?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of those who have heard the good news of Christ and have rejected it?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of me and my attempt to draw near to Him in faith?  He is loving, and merciful, and knows my heart -- which actually is a little frightening, because I daily have a peek at my heart, too, and it's not always pretty, so I "press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."  That's all I can do -- when I fall, get back up again. The saints through the ages have provided abundant example of this for me and us all. 

 

Back to the quote: I know someone who believed reformed theology -- who loves God very much, who is a far better and more faithful Christian than I -- who felt like maybe she wasn't one of the elect.  She was in tears feeling like she DID love God, had spent most of her life wanting to love and serve Him, but because of some things happening in her life, believed that perhaps she wasn't one of God's chosen after all.  It was very painful to comprehend and watch.  It's a big part of the reason I can't comprehend the theology and am thankful historical record shows it's not part of the earliest form of Christianity. 

 

Love this response but also wanted to say that that is not universal among the reformed.  We can have assurance. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness."   I actually only came to this understanding after starting to attend a reformed church.  Difficulties in life are not an indication of being unloved or not chosen (though of course I don't know if that's what you mean about your friend).   The song "In Christ Alone" comes to mind here though it is not a perfect answer.  The Westminster Shorter Catechism says this:

 

Quest. 85. What doth God require of us, that we may escape his wrath and curse due to us for sin?

Ans. 85. To escape the wrath and curse of God due to us for sin, God requireth of us faith in Jesus Christ, repentance unto life, with the diligent use of all the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption.

 

And then it goes on to unpack all that.  

[milovany]

....Difficulties in life are not an indication of being unloved or not chosen (though of course I don't know if that's what you mean about your friend)....

 

It isn't, but thank you for your thoughts.  It was different than that.  She actually steered me with an adept hand and loving heart when I was dealing with the type of issue you mention.  

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think Jesus (God) picks and chooses who He he draws; I think it is His desire and that He attempts to draw all to Himself, to fullness of life.  I think the above quote comes from a "reformed" perspective if I'm not mistaken.  The ancient, earliest perspective of the Church was that God wants all to come to Him. What of those who haven't heard the good news of Christ?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of those who have heard the good news of Christ and have rejected it?  God is loving, and merciful, and He knows their hearts.  What of me and my attempt to draw near to Him in faith?  He is loving, and merciful, and knows my heart -- which actually is a little frightening, because I daily have a peek at my heart, too, and it's not always pretty, so I "press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."  That's all I can do -- when I fall, get back up again. The saints through the ages have provided abundant example of this for me and us all. 

 

Back to the quote: I know someone who believed reformed theology -- who loves God very much, who is a far better and more faithful Christian than I -- who felt like maybe she wasn't one of the elect.  She was in tears feeling like she DID love God, had spent most of her life wanting to love and serve Him, but because of some things happening in her life, believed that perhaps she wasn't one of God's chosen after all.  It was very painful to comprehend and watch.  It's a big part of the reason I can't comprehend the theology and am thankful historical record shows it's not part of the earliest form of Christianity. 

 

No, the quote is from a Lutheran perspective, and Lutherans continue the historic belief that Christ died for everyone, and that He draws everyone.

The point of the quote is that I say this for me, for myself, in this particular case, from the general to the particular, not that He chooses for some and against others.

 

However, we believe that we can reject Him.

 

So He calls all, and at the same time all can turn from Him--and if so it is not because He wills that.

[Dory]

I've wrestled with doubt. Many times.

 

But it always comes down to my personal experience. I *have* felt the closeness of the Lord in my life. He *has* held me in his arms when times were tough. I can't deny that he had been with me.

 

I look at nature and feel his presence. I think back on times when I floundered and he carried me through. How can I deny that? I might as well deny that my l late MIL and FIL existed. Of course it isn't true, and neither is it true about the Lord now. Just because I don't feel him here and now, just because I might doubt now, doesn't negate the past encounters.

 

I wish I could NOT believe. Life seems like it would easier. After all, the Christian life is no cake walk. I would love to be able to live life according to my own rules, but I just can't. Because he exists.

 

And it was cathartic for me to exposit my feelings on this. I'm loving this thread.

I am immensely jealous that you have felt that and have that assurance.

[Rosie_0801]

I wish I could NOT believe. Life seems like it would easier. After all, the Christian life is no cake walk. I would love to be able to live life according to my own rules, but I just can't. Because he exists.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I don't think life is a cake walk for anyone with any integrity.

[sewingmama]

I stayed because I have a DH who would divorce me if I didn't. Plus it seems only fair since he wanted to marry someone of his religion I shouldn't flake out now. I just can't believe in it anymore but go due to family pressure...easier not to rock the boat...I'm too tired for that fight.

[freeindeed]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am having serious struggles right now.

[FaithManor]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am having serious struggles right now.

I hope you find peace.  :grouphug:

[milovany]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am having serious struggles right now.

 

Same as FaithManor, I hope you find peace.  If you need to talk with someone who doesn't know you from Eve, feel free to PM me.  We were one type of Christian for many, many years, and then switched to what felt/feels like a totally opposite kind of Christian a few years back.  I get struggling with faith a little bit, at least in some ways.  (Our faith has never been stronger or more real, by the way, so sometimes considering and making what feels like big changes can be helpful.)

[Freckles]

I've believed since I was a little kid. I too have my moments where I question, but what brings me back every time are what I call my "stones of remembrance." I think back to every little or big event that I can only contribute to a divine intervention. I hate that we can't see God's face. But, we can see his creation. I believe that our denominations get in the way because for the most part they are traditions of men. I grew up in a free will church, but as I've gotten older I consider myself a Calvinist. No one has to agree with me, these are my beliefs. I believe in total depravity, election, and that God is bigger than my brain will ever understand. God's ways are not my ways. Exodus 33: 18Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" 19And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion." 20But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"…

Now granted, for those who don't believe the Bible is God's truth this will be meaningless. I believe that God calls some, and he doesn't others. I don't know why? And that is hard, but who am I to question. I am nothing in the big picture. I am made to worship God and love my neighbor. I try really hard, but I fail at both. I personally don't try to enforce Christian values on non-Christians. I personally don't have a problem with Christianity being absent from public schools because I don't want other faiths being taught to my kids. Sorry I got sidetracked. The older I get, the less I know. I have had bad things happen in my life, but I don't blame God because I believe sin/man's fallen state have brought darkness into this temporary world. I wish I could explain it better. I just know that even when I'm questioning He's there.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I am not good with words.  But for those of you who have struggled or are struggling--remember that the apostles struggled with who Jesus was.  They saw him perform miracle after miracle.  They saw him heal the sick, the blind, the paralyzed.  They saw him bring back the dead. They watched him walk on water, calm storms, feed 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.

 

And they doubted. They still did not understand WHO HE WAS. 

 

They tried to protect Him from people He could help (as if He'd need protection!).

 

They didn't believe He could feed 5000 and tried to send them away.

 

Jesus foretold His death many times, bu they didn't get it.

 

They were experienced fisherman who were terrified of being on a boat in the storm in the night.

 

They watched Him walk on water yet didn't believe Him when He told them to come.

 

Jesus told Judas at the Last Supper what Judas was going to do, yet Judas still did it.  One who KNEW this was the Son of God would not continue on to betray him. 

 

He asked them to pray, and they FELL ASLEEP. 

 

Jesus's own family didn't get it.  His mother and brothers DID NOT KNOW WHO HE WAS.

 

Jesus kept telling them, kept showing them, and they still had doubts, those who were with Him every day and saw with their OWN EYES what He was, WHO He was.

 

How much more difficult is it for us here, 2000 years later, to have the same struggles.  But it's not a surprise.  GOD KNEW THIS, and that's why these events are shared over and over and over in the Bible.  If you miss it one time, you'll see it again, or again, or again. Your struggles with doubt and/or unbelief, or questioning do not make you a bad person or a bad Christian.  The disciples were the most active, most devout followers of Christ, and their words of disbelief are shared, but you can also see how much JESUS CONTINUED TO LOVE THEM AND SHARE WITH THEM.  He didn't get rid of them, punish them. He showed them again and again and again.  And He will do the same for you.

 

"If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, nothing will be impossible for you."

 

 

[marbel]

I am not good with words.  

 

Uh, really?  I thought that was beautiful.

[texasmama]

I tried to leave, but I kept coming back to my past experiences which informed my beliefs.  I've actually tried to leave at least twice.  The line from the Godfather comes to me, "I tried to get out, but they kept pulling me back in." 

 

I continue to be constantly disillusioned by Christians and organized religion, but Jesus does not let me down.  I've been really mad at his Daddy, though.  ;)  I am currently a part of a wonderful, giving church with a simple message - Love God and love and serve others.  Okay, I can do that.  :)

 

I think I'm done trying to leave and have wrestled for 30 years with  my beliefs and come up with something that works for me.  And it is Christianity.  I'm not loud, and I'm not insistent.  There are lots of things I do not know or understand.  I accept that.  I also accept that life here is not "fair" or just or all that great for folks. 

 

I do love me some Jesus. 

[Hyacinth]

I am not good with words.  But for those of you who have struggled or are struggling--remember that the apostles struggled with who Jesus was.  They saw him perform miracle after miracle.  They saw him heal the sick, the blind, the paralyzed.  They saw him bring back the dead. They watched him walk on water, calm storms, feed 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.

 

And they doubted. They still did not understand WHO HE WAS. 

 

(snipped for brevity)

 

Similarly, John the Baptist (whose life mission it seems was to proclaim Jesus) doubted while waiting for his execution: “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?â€

[texasmama]

This as well. 

 

Are questions welcome? If not, no biggie and I do not have any questions right now but as my mom took DS to watch airplanes take off and land at the airport so I could spend the day cleaning. I am sure I will not be productive by poking around the forums. :)

 

 

ETA: If not I will not be offended and will respect that. I just wanted to ask first. :)

I welcome questions. However, I likely have no satisfying answers.  :)

[texasmama]

Count me in as another who is interested in hearing what is said here.

 

I also have a question, and I'm going to go ahead and ask, but if it isn't welcomed here please just ignore it.  Lest someone question the intent, it is a real, true question, has been one since I self-identified as Christian, and one I've never been able to resolve satisfactorily.  

 

 "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him.  But the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified, and kept me in the true faith."

 

My question is, what about everyone else?  Why has everyone else not been called?  Since one's own reason and strength really has nothing to do with it, then why hasn't everyone else been called, too?   Similarly, how is it that some have been let to leave the faith, if their own reason and strength are powerless to the call of Christ?

Essentially, this is Calvinism.  I am not Calvinistic so I don't have to wrestle with that statement.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Similarly, John the Baptist (whose life mission it seems was to proclaim Jesus) doubted while waiting for his execution: “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?â€

 

John!  Who KNEW JESUS from the womb!! Whose life was devoted "to make straight the way for the Lord"!

 

 

[Greta]

I do love me some Jesus.

This is exactly what it boils down to. This is why I became a Christian. And this is why I stay, even through my doubts.

 

I don't know how theologically sound this is, but my personal feeling is that God the Father sent His Son to become human not only to die for our sins, but also to live so that those of us whose faith is weak could believe. For some of us, it can be difficult to believe in a "distant" invisible abstract God. But God in the flesh, God who lived and walked among us as one of us, God whose words and actions were recorded for us all in the gospels, God who loved and felt joy and felt sorrow and suffered like one of us, God who gave us His blood to drink and His flesh to eat that we might abide in Him and He in us, God in tangible form who could be seen and touched and heard - all of this was so that God could draw us closer to Himself. What I know of God the Father, I know through God the Son, because they are One, and so through Christ's life, I know the other two persons of the Holy Trinity. I hope that I've managed to make some sense in here somewhere. I'm not sure I'm expressing this well at all.

 

Also, for me, I was not a Christian for the first 17 years of my adult life. I read about other religions, and "dabbled" in several, and while meaning no disrespect at all to the people who adhere to those religions, for me they always felt empty. Something was missing. I did more than just dabble in Buddhism, I was Buddhist for ten years, and pursued it rather seriously. For most of those years, I thought I had found the truth. But then I started to have this strange experience: anytime I would hear a snippet of the gospel, of the words of Christ, I would find myself in tears. I didn't know what it meant, and I really resisted it at first because I did not want to be a Christian! I pushed it aside, tried to ignore it. But when I had occasion to hear the passage in which He was being nailed to the cross, and said "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do," I could ignore Him no longer. Here was a love so profound, so perfect, so complete that He could forgive those who were torturing and killing Him even as they were doing it. I needed that forgiveness. I needed that love. The thing that was missing from everything else I had pursued was Christ's love for me, and my love for Him.

 

But I am a skeptical and literal-minded person by nature. So I still have my times of doubt, my times of thinking that this is all just wishful thinking on my part, and none of this is real. But then I remember. I do love me some Jesus.

 

Christ said that faith even the size of a mustard seed could move mountains. Well, mine isn't anywhere near as big as a mustard seed, it's about the size of a single atom. But, small and weak and fragile as it is, it is love. And so I cling to it, and to Him.

[Laurie4b]

I haven't yet had time to write my own story here, but I thought that this link might help some who are wanting to maintain faith, but struggling with doubt of enormous proportions. http://gungormusic.com/2013/03/for-the-doubters/  If you also click the link he's provided to Mike's blog, there are a lot of thoughtful things there as well. Mike's story is Baptist to atheist to "I am a science-minded, mystical Christian now. My ideas about God are unconventional, but I really do believe again."

 

Ironic, especially given the content of the thread from which this one is a spin-off, is his experience of having skeptics tell him he really was never an atheist. His  blog post at the top is about that.

 

I think nearly everyone, on both these threads, will find both blogs thoughtful and worth the time to read.