lucrative career - harder than ever for everyone except math/engineering geniuses

[stupidusername]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that it is harder than ever for young people to find lucrative career paths?

 

I'm not talking about math geniuses, engineering whizzes, and computer prodigies. They've always done well and will still do fine. There are plenty of jobs on Wall Street for math PhDs from Cal Tech.  I'm talking about the rest of us. The bottom 99.9%. 

 

In the past, a kid with a reasonably good college transcript could go to law school and subsequently find a job that pays six figures (or close to it). Now there are more lawyers than lawyer jobs; many recent law school grads are unemployed or working at Starbucks.

 

It's not just law school. A whole host of white-collar professions are in similar situations.  Architects. Writers. Journalists. Academics. Musicians. Artists. Real estate agents. Even nurses and pharmacists. (There is no longer a nursing shortage, and pharmacy schools are pumping out more PharmD grads than there are jobs available.) 

 

In some of these fields, even the very best are struggling. There are Juilliard-trained musicians who can't find full-time jobs.

 

Even some computer programmers and engineers are feeling pressure as outsourcing/offshoring increases. Sure, the top people in these fields still do fine ... but mediocre is no longer good enough. A lot of routine programming work can be automated or done in India for $8 an hour.

 

Here in the U.S., physicians still have good job security, though many complain about loss of autonomy, reduced reimbursements, medical school debt, risk of liability, high pressure, abusive patients, and ridiculously long working hours. It is my understanding that many older physicians are retiring early. (Notwithstanding all of these problems, I am recommending to my kids that they strongly consider careers in medicine, as it seems better than all the alternatives.)

 

In short, it's harder and harder for young people coming out of college who hope to work in white-collar professions. Many people in their early 20s are unemployed, underemployed, or working in low-wage service jobs that don't provide health or retirement benefits.

 

In the U.S., it feels like the economy is becoming more and more "winner takes all." A small number of people at the top are making billions. Good for them! But almost everyone else except is struggling. Really struggling. As in can't find a job other than bike messenger.

 

People who are good with their hands can do well as plumbers or electricians. Maybe that is the best that most of our kids can hope for.

[shanvan]

I have been having very similar thoughts lately.  Dh lost his job of 25 years last summer.  He has a new job, but paying far less, and we are thankful he found it b/c we know many people who are still without a job.  Dh's experiences have made me wonder about how to steer my own children.

[poppy]

It's harder to become an attorney or physician.  The business / corporate world and the public sector area can still lead to lucrative careers.

 

 

 

It's not just law school. A whole host of white-collar professions are in similar situations.  Architects. Writers. Journalists. Academics. Musicians. Artists. Real estate agents. Even nurses and pharmacists. (There is no longer a nursing shortage, and pharmacy schools are pumping out more PharmD grads than there are jobs available.)

 

If there was a time musicians, writers or artists were "white collar" , well...... I am unaware of that time. 

 

It's true the administrations have gutted academic careers and the web has 'democratized' journalism.  But for the brief period those careers were a smart career path for bright young people, they were really only open to white men.

[Lavandula]

I could definitely be wrong, but the people with math PhDs aren't the 1%, are they? I don't doubt they're doing well but it seems when people talk about the 1% they're talking about the CEOs who make what someone else earns in a year, in one hour. 

 

I also don't see a lack of good IT/engineering jobs. If DD was interested I would encourage her to go into that. Dh makes good money, has great benefits, and the company rarely fires people. Of course this gets annoying when there's someone who's doing a terrible job, but he has amazing job security. His friends from all over the country in the same field are also in this situation. The company he works for also hires kids straight out of college fairly often, and they get paid pretty decent salaries even when they just start. Sure you can outsource, but I agree with what Sparkly said. I don't doubt the people in India's skills at all, but the communication and collaboration is often a decent sized obstacle.

[lmrich]

I think in every career, intelligence, training, hard work, and luck all blend together to make a lucrative career.

[DawnM]

Lucrative?

 

Not all white collar jobs are highly lucrative.  I didn't go in to education to get rich.  However, I loved my job (school counseling) and I plan to go back to it fairly soon.

 

My husband's job is far more lucrative than mine, but he loves his job too.  

 

I don't want my kids to go for lucrative.  I want them to go for what they love.  Now, I will encourage them to find something that is profitable enough to live on and raise a family on, but if they don't choose lucrative, I am fine with that.

 

Now, if your point was that even non-lucrative white collar workers are having a hard time finding jobs......that I will have to look up statistics on as I am not sure.  Do you have a link?

 

Dawn

[Momof3littles]

My husband is a PhD scientist in a fairly specialized and thriving field, and he works in the private sector. However, we know many underemployed people with PhDs in the sciences.  Academia is more cut throat than ever with funding issues.  We have several friends who cannot find a tenured position despite being good scientists.  This is partially due to the fact that many universities want those on the tenure track to be self-funded through grants, etc. by the time 5 years are up.  Even established faculty in the sciences are struggling a bit with funding these days.  In the private sector, we have many friends who are scientists in pharma, and that industry just isn't what it once was.  My husband previously worked in pharma, then switched to a different industry, and we were very fortunate.  People advocate STEM, and while I feel that is an excellent skill set to have, I think a lot of people are naive about what someone with say a bachelor's in chem or biology make.  DH had a fellow grad student who wanted to work in a government forensic lab, but they graduated at a time when the job market was tough, including in the federal government.  She took a job in a state lab, and had to negotiate up to something like 35,000 a yr.  Her undergrad was Harvard, they attended an excellent PhD program with a nationally-known advisor, etc. but that's what she could get in her field.  Grad school admissions are incredibly competitive, and while many students at least are supported through TA and research assistant positions (therefore little or no debt for graduate school), the job market is still tough and competitive.  In a time of globalization, I think that's only going to increase. In our experience, networking is absolutely critical. We'll encourage our kids to join their professional organizations, attend professional organization conferences, to do student/faculty research, etc. as we think those were instrumental in our own careers.

 

My degree is a master's in an allied health field.  I went to school to be a physical therapist.  My tuition was 125,000 for my degree, which was completed in 2001, was a 5 year combined bachelor's/master's.  A master's is required to sit for boards, but most schools have now transitioned to the DPT.  The same degree from my university is now over 250,000 (with living expenses during the graduate portion, it is actually approaching 280,000+), because with the DPT the course of study is now longer.  DPTs in general do not make more money than PTs with a master's, it is just the new normal for an entry level degree.  In any case, employment prospects are still good, but that is a HEFTY pricetag, and a competitive major.  Many people I went to school with were valedictorians, high SAT scores, etc .and could have gone to med school.  Many did not want that lifestyle, or weren't sure about committing to the # of years for med school plus a residency. That shift is occurring across many of the better paying non-MD professions; the programs are getting longer, the cost is going up.  And that isn't necessarily awful, but students obviously have to consider whether taking on loan debt to that level is wise depending on expected salary.  If my tuition had cost what it does now (a little over a decade later), SAH would not have been an option whatsoever.  As a student, I think it is incredibly difficult to know what you might want down the road when and if you have a family.  But yeah, the same entry level degree (even though it has basically moved from a master's to a DPT), with no increase in pay, is now over double what I paid for my education a little more than a decade ago.  And it wasn't inexpensive then, and the loans have been a struggle for some of my friends.

 

I am not terribly optimistic about this if it isn't obvious ;)

 

 

[Momof3littles]

Oh, and for what it is worth, I don't necessarily need my kids to be in a lucrative profession, but I think it just keeps getting more difficult for the middle class.  I know in my state there is a move to get rid of teacher pensions and replace them with 401ks.  I understand that the state doesn't have the budget to continue to pay out pension $$, but if someone on a 30-35,000 salary starts to have to fund their own 401k, pay a large % of healthcare premiums with higher out of pocket costs, carry student loans, etc, it starts to really cut into what used to be a somewhat livable but non lucrative middle class salary, IMO.

[creekland]

I suspect location is going to play a big part in what jobs are likely to be around.  Plumbers, electricians, and anything else dealing with construction other than "basic labor" is quite competitive around here.  If you want in the union, you'd better know someone.  If you want to go it alone, you're competing against several others listed in the "services offered" in the paper.

 

The nursing majors my middle son took classes with are all employed though - no issues for any of them.

 

In general, with automation, fewer workers are needed on most jobs from telephone companies to manufacturing to even engineering drafting.  Sure there are some new fields (computers in general), but I suspect the jobs lost far outweigh the jobs available.

 

Many (not all) jobs that were automated were decent paying jobs.  Many of the new jobs (retail, fast food) aren't.

 

Plenty of people look around for jobs that will sustain them and their loved ones and quickly figure out that some jobs tend to be "better" than others.  They flock to these - providing a glut in those fields.  Therefore, there's competition for the jobs... and when there's competition, not all win.

 

I, personally, feel that the best chance for getting a "good" job comes from following one's passion and being downright GOOD at it.  Then add in connections/networking and a little luck.  It can take some work to build the connections if they aren't naturally there.

 

A mediocre candidate for a lucrative position may find themselves way outclassed.  I wouldn't chase the money hoping it's there.

 

 

[Moxie]

Yeah, I know a lot of unhappy doctors and lawyers. No way would I encourage my children into a career based on money.

[Lavandula]

I, personally, feel that the best chance for getting a "good" job comes from following one's passion and being downright GOOD at it.  Then add in connections/networking and a little luck.  It can take some work to build the connections if they aren't naturally there.

Strongly agree. Everyone I know who has been successful in Dh's business has loved their work. Do they love being on call at odd hours, servers going down, dealing with people who aren't the brightest, so on? Usually no. But at their core they like what they do. Dh will read straight through a several hundred page computer manual. For fun. Most of the people who come in just for the money and benefits get weeded out quickly because they just don't have the dedication. Of course there are exceptions and I do respect people who don't love their job, but it seems a lot of the time it matters.

 

That being said, there are some things where it is more connections/money based, and it's sad. Dd is really interested in diplomacy was very upset when she learned about how a lot of ambassadors don't even know much about their countries, and get picked because of connections and donations.

[stupidusername]

 

Plenty of people look around for jobs that will sustain them and their loved ones and quickly figure out that some jobs tend to be "better" than others.  They flock to these - providing a glut in those fields.  Therefore, there's competition for the jobs... and when there's competition, not all win.

 

 

 

Bingo. Mediocre may have been good enough in the past, but not anymore.

[stupidusername]

I, personally, feel that the best chance for getting a "good" job comes from following one's passion and being downright GOOD at it. 

 

can't agree with this, unfortunately. See my comment, above, about unemployed Juilliard grads. 

 

Do you think the best film-scoring jobs go to the best composers? No. By and large, they go to daughters, sons, nieces, nephews, and friends of Hollywood directors.

 

There are many, many very good writers, musicians, actors, and so on who cannot find paid work.

[shanvan]

Lucrative?

 

Not all white collar jobs are highly lucrative.  I didn't go in to education to get rich.  However, I loved my job (school counseling) and I plan to go back to it fairly soon.

 

My husband's job is far more lucrative than mine, but he loves his job too.  

 

I don't want my kids to go for lucrative.  I want them to go for what they love.  Now, I will encourage them to find something that is profitable enough to live on and raise a family on, but if they don't choose lucrative, I am fine with that.

 

Now, if your point was that even non-lucrative white collar workers are having a hard time finding jobs......that I will have to look up statistics on as I am not sure.  Do you have a link?

 

Dawn

This is more along the lines of what I have been thinking--not necessarily that they can't find lucrative jobs, as mentioned in the OP---more like it is becoming harder and harder for them to find jobs that support a family.  I have no specific statistics to link, and I'm too tired to look for any.  I do have personal knowledge of many families losing income as the husbands/wives struggle to find jobs.  I also thought it was fairly well reported that college grads in the liberal arts majors are mostly not able to find jobs that pay a decent wage, and at the same time straddled with huge debt from student loans.  I feel like several times a week I hear this topic being discussed, or see an article or book about it.

[stupidusername]

Yeah, I know a lot of unhappy doctors and lawyers. No way would I encourage my children into a career based on money.

 

I know a lot of unhappy unemployed people. Money may not be everything, but it's not nothing.

[creekland]

can't agree with this, unfortunately. See my comment, above, about unemployed Juilliard grads. 

 

Do you think the best film-scoring jobs go to the best composers? No. By and large, they go to daughters, sons, nieces, nephews, and friends of Hollywood directors.

 

There are many, many very good writers, musicians, actors, and so on who cannot find paid work.

 

Can you provide a link to unemployed Juilliard grads?  I'm curious to know what percentage we are talking about...

 

I do know, in any field, from any college (or training), there will be those who are unemployed.  People skills also come into play, and many, many, many either don't have those and/or aren't willing to change their ways to be more likable on the job.

 

A degree, alone, is not enough.  I do know some with nice degrees who can't hold down jobs in their field... it's always been either a case of not really having the talent to be good enough (even though they are SURE they are great and will tell everyone so) or having horrid people/job skills (showing up late, trying to run the place, turning people OFF).

 

These are other factors that come into play.  I don't blame companies who don't care to hire the latter group to be honest.

 

I do feel for those who are out of work due to downsizing/automation/outsourcing and other factors out of their control.  Trying to break into another field afterward is downright tough.

[Lavandula]

can't agree with this, unfortunately. See my comment, above, about unemployed Juilliard grads. 

 

Do you think the best film-scoring jobs go to the best composers? No. By and large, they go to daughters, sons, nieces, nephews, and friends of Hollywood directors.

 

There are many, many very good writers, musicians, actors, and so on who cannot find paid work.

There is a big difference between engineers, techs, nurses, architects, so on, and the entertainment industry. It's not just relatives of people who are already successful. Plenty of people who aren't relatives of anyone become successful in that industry. But if you look at the award winning directors and many other things, you'll find most of them are male, and white. A very large percentage. It's a terrible industry for women to try to get into, especially when they're not white. It's even bad for men who aren't white. There are few parts for them and when there are parts they are played by white people anyway. You should look at the things that show the race/gender of people in the Academy. They are very largely white and male. I don't know much about music but I assume it is a lot of the same. This has a lot more to do with sexism and racism than the economy. 

[mom2scouts]

My dh is a highly educated licensed professional with thirty years experience in his field.  He lost his job 3 years ago and, despite sending out thousands of resumes, he couldn't get a single interview.  It doesn't help that he's in his mid 50's.  I suspect that there is a bit of age discrimination, but we still have young children at home.  He's now working in a related field for a low income and no benefits and he's just happy to have a job to go to everyday.  The guy he works with is a well paid union worker who complains about every single job and asked my dh "if he was mad" about not being able to work in his professional career.  My dh told him that he hopes to work in his chosen field again someday, but for right now he's happy to have a job.

 

In contrast, my two adult sons are both in science/engineering/computer related jobs. They earn as much or more than dh and have both had offers to leave their current jobs for other engineering or computer jobs.  My younger children do not seem to be headed that way, so I guess my plan is to maximize their strengths however possible.

[Haiku]

We hacked our manufacturing sector to bits and spoon-fed it to other countries. That did away with a lot of decently paying jobs. Then we decided that shareholders matter more than workers, so corporations began to put the squeeze on workers, increasing hours, reducing pay and benefits, and cutting their workforce to the bare minimum. That did away with another chunk of good jobs. We also decided that anything that serves the public good, such as the arts, is a waste of money, so we stopped (or drastically cut back on) funding these things. So now our cultural guardians are out of work.

 

But ... we have the economy we allowed by bowing and scraping to the corporate overlords who told us that if we allowed them to make obscene amounts of money on our backs, everything would be fab. But guess what. It isn't.

[Desert Strawberry]

Down here the money is in the oil field. Lots of money, at every level. Aside from engineers, college isn't a factor, and little of the work is white collar. It's all about skill, entrepreneurship, and hard, dirty work.

I don't expect my kids to have easy, high paying careers. If that was ever a reality, it was extremely rare.

[shanvan]

I do know, in any field, from any college (or training), there will be those who are unemployed.  People skills also come into play, and many, many, many either don't have those and/or aren't willing to change their ways to be more likable on the job.

 

A degree, alone, is not enough.  I do know some with nice degrees who can't hold down jobs in their field... it's always been either a case of not really having the talent to be good enough (even though they are SURE they are great and will tell everyone so) or having horrid people/job skills (showing up late, trying to run the place, turning people OFF).

 

Absolutely.  I have seen a LOT of this, especially not having people skills.  I have been focusing on teaching Dc those skills through their extracurriculars, and they can already see how networking comes into play with opportunities.  

 

These are other factors that come into play.  I don't blame companies who don't care to hire the latter group to be honest.

 

I do feel for those who are out of work due to downsizing/automation/outsourcing and other factors out of their control.  Trying to break into another field afterward is downright tough.

Yes, many other factors come into play.  Many are out of work due to circumstances beyond their control, and not all of them are due to poor people skills, lack of talent, or outsourcing/automation.  Small businesses have taken a huge hit during the past 10 years, and some people have lost their jobs simply due to smaller companies folding or drastically downsizing in an attempt to save the company.  

[Paige]

I don't know....define lucrative? I don't think people need to be making 6 figures to have a lucrative career. It just depends on where you live. I think a lot of the problem is people want more. They want the 6 figures and aren't happy with less even though they could live a perfectly happy decent life. Or, people are unwilling to relocate. My BIL has a degree and experience that could get him employed easily in many areas of the country but he refuses to move away from his hometown so he's been underemployed for 10 yrs! I don't understand that.

 

I think another problem is the mindset of those entering college. They are told to be lawyers and doctors for the money and prestige. Maybe they aren't all qualified for that, or maybe there are too many, but there are lots of profitable careers in other areas. You can do quite well for yourself doing something technical like plumbing or electrical work, but fewer students go into that because they don't want to be blue collar. Liberal arts degrees aren't doing many people any favors either- I know, I have a MS in sociology and it's not worth anything. Thankfully, I don't need to work. I didn't know better as a kid. The college always talked up how versatile that and similar degrees were. BS.  If I could go back in time, I'd study something like geology and leverage that to get into the oil and gas industries. Young students were encouraged to follow their interests and then figure out a career path instead of figuring out a career path and educating themselves accordingly. I hope it's changed, but I'm not sure. 

 

Most importantly, however, is that society has been in a time of transition. The big growth in computers/internet/technology over the last 30 years has changed things dramatically. I'm sure you'd hear similar sentiments about people being unable to support their families at the same level as their grandparents if you spoke with people alive 30yrs or so after the start of the Industrial Revolution. Many people had a hard time finding work, family life declined, and there was more shiny cool stuff to want and need.  It was a terribly hard time for many people, yet the end result was a rise in standards of living for most people in those countries. I'm an optimistic person, so I'm hopeful that the same will be true for our times. It will be hard for society to adjust to the change and adapt jobs and lifestyles, but in the end, we'll see more people's lives improve.

 

 

[creekland]

Yes, many other factors come into play.  Many are out of work due to circumstances beyond their control, and not all of them are due to poor people skills, lack of talent, or outsourcing/automation.  Small businesses have taken a huge hit during the past 10 years, and some people have lost their jobs simply due to smaller companies folding or drastically downsizing in an attempt to save the company.  

 

:iagree:  And this goes along with my thoughts that there is now far more competition than before.  One has to do all they can to be the best they can in a field where they have talent.  Then make as good an effort as possible with people/job skills.  Then hope for luck.

 

I see many who are still successful at getting decent jobs (not necessarily 6 figures out of college), so it can and does still happen.  My college grad from this year is employed - using his skills.  His pay is a little less than I would find ideal, but he opted to go with a start up and is happy.  That counts for a lot IMO.

[aggieamy]

 

 

I'm not talking about math geniuses, engineering whizzes, and computer prodigies. They've always done well and will still do fine. There are plenty of jobs on Wall Street for math PhDs from Cal Tech.  I'm talking about the rest of us. The bottom 99.9%. 

 

 

 

I know lots of engineers.  *HI* I'm one.  My DH is one.  He might be a genius but I'm sure not.  Just a gal that was decent at math and science and worked my bum off in college.  I went to a state school and so did DH.  Engineering is a good field but don't make it sound like it's for some sort of uber elite group.  I would think lots of people could do what I do.

 

 

 

Even some computer programmers and engineers are feeling pressure as outsourcing/offshoring increases. Sure, the top people in these fields still do fine ... but mediocre is no longer good enough. A lot of routine programming work can be automated or done in India for $8 an hour.

 

 

 

Do you really want to drive over a bridge that was designed by a mediocre engineer?  I don't think mediocre has ever been good enough in engineering.

 

 

 

People who are good with their hands can do well as plumbers or electricians. Maybe that is the best that most of our kids can hope for.

 

 

Whoa.  Whoa. Whoa.  Is there shame in being an electrician or a plumber?  I think those are great fields for kids if college isn't an option.  I'd sure rather see one of my kids trained in that field rather than with a general business or history degree and not able to find a job.  That's marketable and it has lots of room to be highly successful.  Spend a few years learning the trade then start your own company. 

[J-rap]

It does seem like a lot of jobs out there that used to only require a Bachelor's degree now require a Master's degree, or that a Master's degree is more of a guarantee of getting a decent job nowadays rather than just a Bachelor's.

[Mama Geek]

I think part of the key is moving to where the work is.  I see people talking about forever homes.  I don't really know that you can have such a thing and be in a career that pays well.  Engineering is not the only thing right now, dh is in the oil industry and we are in an area with lots of contractors.  There are lots of blue collar skilled trades that are working here.  They follow the work.  There is work here on the gulf coast, Houston, Denver, the Dakotas, depending on how things go in the election in Nov, Alaska may get hot, and I have heard rumors that Wyoming may soon be a hot spot (this is from a less reliable source than all the others).  Moving around isn't always easy or fun, but there is work and it can pay well.

[Momof3littles]

I honestly think even with advanced degrees, it is hard to find a job that pays enough to support a family, even with dual income.  In our kids' generation, I suspect it will be far, far more difficult.  I can think of very few jobs that pay what I consider well (I realize that's highly subjective) with a master's, and those fields are increasingly competitive.  Not to mention, the expense of obtaining said degree, taking on loans (since realistically most middle class parents can't fund a bachelor's and advanced degrees), and then struggling with paying off the loan, health insurance premiums, health insurance out of pocket costs, etc.

 

edited to add: When I mentioned paying well enough to support a family, I am taking into consideration things like having the ability to put $ toward retirement, college savings, etc. for a family as well.

[fairfarmhand]

This is why it is so hard to know how to guide your kids in their career path. The days of having a reasonable guarantee of getting a well-paying job with only a college degree are long gone. I am glad that many young people are beginning to see the foolishness of taking out thousands of dollars in student loans because that job may not be out there.

 

I plan on advising my kids to do their very best to get through college with a minimum of debt. I think if you can get through college without a mountain of student loans, it's a whole lot easier to stomach a 35,000 a year entry-level position in a company to get your foot in the door.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I know my kids may not have the lucrative life dh has worked for.  I grew up thinking we had to do better than our parents.  They had done that and surely we could too.  But with the economy and making some decisions over the years I know now we are just aiming to get close to what we had growing up.  

 

I am encouraging my kids to find something they can accept.  If they want the big house they both might need to work.  We haven't been able to buy and keep a house...dh keeps needing to change jobs.  He is in IT and has had plenty of lay offs/firings in his career.  Himself and friends.  Moving has led us to sell homes a lot.  At this point we choose not to buy a home.  My kids see this as a poor issue, but it's not.  We just got tired of losing money in buying a house we later couldn't sell for profit.  

 

I want my kids to do whatever will give them the life they want.  My choice to stay home has affected our retirement and our ability to help with college.  No regrets.  But I am honest with them....their friends who do not homeschool and have the large houses have 2 parents working jobs.  All the new cars....it's 2 parents working 2 jobs.  We made a choice and a sacrifice and they don't have to understand it.  They get to make their own choices when grown up.  We have been honest about white collar work vs blue collar work.  And they will have to decide what path they want.  We give examples of people we know.  We are honest about costs of things.  

 

If anything, we are just preparing them to make the best choice for their future and what they want.  My ds hates the city but says he may choose that life so he can avoid the costs of a car.  My dd wants to stay home with her kids....does she still want to go to college at all?  

 

I agree there is no easy path to lucrative.  There are costs to get that life.  We are just trying to lay out the options and let them choose.  

 

 

[Pippen]

 

 

Whoa.  Whoa. Whoa.  Is there shame in being an electrician or a plumber?  I think those are great fields for kids if college isn't an option.  I'd sure rather see one of my kids trained in that field rather than with a general business or history degree and not able to find a job.  That's marketable and it has lots of room to be highly successful.  Spend a few years learning the trade then start your own company. 

 

 

The plumber that lives across the street from me is making far more than we do. My husband has a degree and has stayed in his position for his entire career. I have a master's but can't get back on full time in my field so I'm substitute teaching.

[shanvan]

:iagree:  And this goes along with my thoughts that there is now far more competition than before.  One has to do all they can to be the best they can in a field where they have talent.  Then make as good an effort as possible with people/job skills.  Then hope for luck.

 

I see many who are still successful at getting decent jobs (not necessarily 6 figures out of college), so it can and does still happen.  My college grad from this year is employed - using his skills.  His pay is a little less than I would find ideal, but he opted to go with a start up and is happy.  That counts for a lot IMO.

Yep.  I see competition being more intense than it was years ago.  I do not think I was prepared for how much of a role people skills played in employment when I graduated.  I so wish my parents had given me the instruction Dc are getting.  They are also learning how to deal with competition--though sometimes I could do without it.  Sometimes I wonder where the non-competitive types who don't want to 'play the game' (so to speak) fit in.  

 

Encouraging news about your Ds's experience.  Good to 'hear'.

[Momof3littles]

I think either way most people don't graduate and then instantly find an awesome paying job.  You have to work your way up usually.  So you do start off with less. 

 

Sure, but my issue is that it seems to be quite common in middle class jobs to have very stagnant salaries combined with increased out of pocket expenses (higher premiums and out of pocket healthcare expenses).  The pinch just keeps getting worse for many middle class workers.  Jobs, including the "good ones,"  are generally far less long-term and less stable.  In some industries I am familiar with, the best way to get a raise is to leave an existing job, which then gets back to mobility, renting vs owning, etc.  There's a move in many industries to contract out more and more staff, which minimizes the company's long-term commitments (in terms of benefits and the like).  Rents in many areas are very, very high, but I wonder about the wisdom of buying a home in our kids' generation, where most people likely will never work 10, 20, or 30 years for the same company.

 

I have family members who work in trades, and I respect that path greatly.  However, with the pressure on unions in some states (I'm thinking about things like the situation with Scott Walker in Wisconsin and the unions), I wonder how solid that path is compared to the past.  Where I live, it seems an increasing number of privately-owned shops are bought up by a larger company.  We used to have many HVAC companies, many electricians, etc,. and now it seems many of them have been bought up by larger companies.  In that case, I imagine it may be tougher to control one's own destiny in a trade than it once was.  I live in an area with several pharma companies, and they are increasingly moving union manufacturing jobs to a state with no collective bargaining.  I think altogether, that is somewhat concerning for the trades, although I realize unions aren't the only option for tradespeople.  I do think it is a concern, however.

[shanvan]

 

I know lots of engineers.  *HI* I'm one.  My DH is one.  He might be a genius but I'm sure not.  Just a gal that was decent at math and science and worked my bum off in college.  I went to a state school and so did DH.  Engineering is a good field but don't make it sound like it's for some sort of uber elite group.  I would think lots of people could do what I do.

 

 

 

 

Do you really want to drive over a bridge that was designed by a mediocre engineer?  I don't think mediocre has ever been good enough in engineering.

 

:lol: Not really funny, but sort of.  Ds overheard Dd and I discussing her math test one day.  She was annoyed that I marked a problem wrong b/c she had the numerator and denominator reversed.  "But you knew what I meant!" she whined.  Ds stuck his nose in and said "Ah, yeah!  Would you ant to drive over a bridge where the engineer said, 'But they knew what I meant.'  

[Lavandula]

Do you really want to drive over a bridge that was designed by a mediocre engineer?  I don't think mediocre has ever been good enough in engineering.

Yep. Mediocre doesn't need to be good enough in a lot of fields. I don't really want my child's nurse to be mediocre, and considering a lot of IT people work on security matters I'd be kind of skeptical of a mediocre applicant there, too.

[Momof3littles]

I think part of the key is moving to where the work is.  I see people talking about forever homes.  I don't really know that you can have such a thing and be in a career that pays well.  Engineering is not the only thing right now, dh is in the oil industry and we are in an area with lots of contractors.  There are lots of blue collar skilled trades that are working here.  They follow the work.  There is work here on the gulf coast, Houston, Denver, the Dakotas, depending on how things go in the election in Nov, Alaska may get hot, and I have heard rumors that Wyoming may soon be a hot spot (this is from a less reliable source than all the others).  Moving around isn't always easy or fun, but there is work and it can pay well.

 

Yes, we've talked to our kids about how they will likely need to be somewhat mobile and willing to move in their generation, and as a result, homeownership may be not be ideal.  However, in some areas rent is incredibly expensive, especially if there is a workforce that moves in.  We are somewhat familiar with the oil and gas industry, and I know in fracking-heavy areas, the rents on simple homes skyrocketed dramatically as those industries moved in.  This posed an issue for the existing people in those towns, because renters who were not in the industry could often no longer afford to rent.  My DH has traveled to areas in oil and gas where companies have purchased entire hotels to house their employees due to a housing shortage. 

[shanvan]

I think part of the key is moving to where the work is.  I see people talking about forever homes.  I don't really know that you can have such a thing and be in a career that pays well.  Engineering is not the only thing right now, dh is in the oil industry and we are in an area with lots of contractors.  There are lots of blue collar skilled trades that are working here.  They follow the work.  There is work here on the gulf coast, Houston, Denver, the Dakotas, depending on how things go in the election in Nov, Alaska may get hot, and I have heard rumors that Wyoming may soon be a hot spot (this is from a less reliable source than all the others).  Moving around isn't always easy or fun, but there is work and it can pay well.

I'm wondering how this plays out.  I'd like to see some statistics on the toll this sort of lifestyle takes.  I wonder about how wise the mobile lifestyle is. When Dh was unemployed I think I read several times cautionary advice about moving for employment b/c you are moving away from connections and your support system.  It's not a lifestyle that would work for my mental health.

[Momof3littles]

My husband has gotten a raise every year he has worked.  Sure sometimes he'd like more.  Everyone would like more.  I got raises every year i worked too.  My husband works in IT.  I last worked in health insurance. 

 

It is true about some trades.  Growing up my dad supported a family of 4 on a factory job.  He worked for that company for over 30 years.  Not only does what he did not really exist as a profession anymore, but that company is no longer in business.

 

We are fortunate that Dh's employer gives generous raises, profit sharing, bonuses, etc.  However, I know of many people who are excellent workers, receive excellent reviews, but companies are just not giving raises that keep up with the cost of living.  And in most cases, the lack of raises is coupled with increased health insurance premiums and out of pocket expenses, so a double whammy.  I actually think it is quite common that salaries are considered pretty stagnant in many industries these days, even for those performing well.

[chiguirre]

I'm not talking about math geniuses, engineering whizzes, and computer prodigies. They've always done well and will still do fine. There are plenty of jobs on Wall Street for math PhDs from Cal Tech.  I'm talking about the rest of us. The bottom 99.9%.

The math PhDs are a very small minority of people who work on Wall St. Mainly you've got people with business or econ degrees from name schools working as salesmen. Most CEOs of non-tech companies also have more general degrees and have worked their way up through the ranks, usually in the money-generating (aka sales departments, although in mass consumer goods they're usually in marketing). In consulting (which is what I know best because it's dh's field) you start making 1% money once you're a partner with a good client base. It's very clear from the bonus plan in dh's company that you get paid for selling work and making a profit. Partners get a percentage of their sales revenue and managing partners get half the profits of their office. Before you reach this level, you're paid well, but you won't be getting a huge bonus (where the bulk of compensation lies for partners, especially managing partners). Dh looks for people with good analytical and writing skills, he's hired an eclectic mix of engineers with MBAs, people with MAs in energy economics and even a PhD in political science. On top of this, you need to be willing to travel 50% of your time and crank out proposals and project reports on the weekend when needed. This is not a 9 to 5 career. In addition, your spouse needs to be able to handle the kids/house on their own so they do need to have a 9 to 5 job or stay home. It would be almost impossible to juggle two careers like this with kids. But this is not a male only field, many of dh's colleagues are women whose husbands are the 9 to 5 job/responsible for the kids and house parent.

 

On a different note (pun very much intended--cuz I'm like that) the Juilliard grads know going in to it that they are not going to have steady work. They know they'll have to patch together several gigs and teaching to make a living. There are lots of music grads in the Houston area because both Rice and U of H have big music departments. Many end up teaching violin to kids on 1/4 instruments while playing in a couple of regional orchestras and string quartets. All of T's teachers have followed this pattern and (I think) they're content with their careers. I know they drive decent cars and dress nicely. They all have played in a regional orchestras (not the Houston Symphony, but professional groups) and done weddings/events on the side. Of course, I have a small sample because although I know 4 different teachers who follow this model, they've all worked at the same school which might be atypical.

 

If you're interested in exploring the topic of growing income inequality in more depth, check out this book:

 

http://smile.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-First-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/067443000X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1403878240&sr=8-2&keywords=income+inequality

 

This book has generated a spirited debate, so it's worth googling its critics too. The author writes for Liberation (a leftist French newspaper, but he teaches at a very well respected French haute ecole for economics).

 

After all that rambling, here's my executive summary:

 

The people who make the bucks are the ones who generate the revenue. You probably won't generate a ton of revenue if you hate getting out of bed every day.

[shanvan]

We are fortunate that Dh's employer gives generous raises, profit sharing, bonuses, etc.  However, I know of many people who are excellent workers, receive excellent reviews, but companies are just not giving raises that keep up with the cost of living.  And in most cases, the lack of raises is coupled with increased health insurance premiums and out of pocket expenses, so a double whammy.  I actually think it is quite common that salaries are considered pretty stagnant in many industries these days, even for those performing well.

Yes.  Dh worked for a small company and we endured losing more and more benefits every year plus pay cuts for the last 6-8 years, until he lost his job as the company makes some last ditch efforts to economize, which are not working out well anyway--the business and property is up for sale.  We know many people who have lost benefits and received pay cuts instead of a raise.  

[stupidusername]

 

Whoa.  Whoa. Whoa.  Is there shame in being an electrician or a plumber?  I think those are great fields for kids if college isn't an option. 

 

no shame in it at all.  Do you think it's wrong to hope for more?

[Alessandra]

If there was a time musicians, writers or artists were "white collar" , well...... I am unaware of that time.

.

Metropolitan Opera orchestra members earn $200,000 base pay, $85,000 in benefits, and get 16 weeks of paid vacation per year. Chorus is similar.

 

I do realize that is exceptional, but I wanted to throw it out there.

[Lavandula]

no shame in it at all.  Do you think it's wrong to hope for more?

Saying "hope for more" when multiple people have said plumbers/electricians make a decent amount of money (look it up, you'd be surprised) is implying there's some reason to look down on the job..

[Dory]

Up here a person is more likely to get a 6 figure income off of the trades then a job that requires a college degree. That being said I'm pretty sure my oldest is heading into Structural Engineering or something similar to that.

[Erin]

Trap is in a "lucrative" job simply because he's in a lucrative industry (petroleum).  Everything from the truck drivers to the rig hands to management...anything associated with the industry is extremely lucrative at the moment.  

And most jobs are blue-collar with little to no education needed.  

 

That would be my suggestion really, look for industries that seem growth-oriented.  Medical is going to be growing for several years to come, particularly geriatric, as the Baby Boomers age.  Alternative and traditional energies are growing as the population grows, and so on.

[Jane in NC]

As another poster stated, define "lucrative".

 

There was a significant change in the lifestyle of the WWII generation who settled into suburbs and Levittowns of the 1950s than in subsequent generations.  I think that it is possible for young people of many stripes to find meaningful work affording a simple life although it is the lack of benefits made available to them that I find disturbing.  We have in our extended family some 20 and 30 somethings who are doing well financially and derive great pleasure from their careers.  Their professions are engineering, law, school administrator, teachers, chemical tech, artist, programmer...  All but one, the programmer, have four year degrees. 

 

How they choose to live varies greatly.  One couple recently built a simple house with much of the inside gleaned from Craig's List.  Another is able to travel internationally regularly because one member of the pair has a job requiring regular international travel. 

 

Maybe our family has a frugal gene, but I would say that we find quality lives that are not necessarily lives based on quantities of stuff--if that makes any sense. 

 

While I am concerned about the lack of good paying jobs in certain sectors and am also concerned about the lack of benefits, I do think that today's 20-somethings have options. They may not all get rich immediately--in fact many of them choose paths purposely that are not based on dollars but on quality lives. 

 

Yeah, I am an optimist.

 

[chiguirre]

Metropolitan Opera orchestra members earn $200,000 base pay, $85,000 in benefits, and get 16 weeks of paid vacation per year. Chorus is similar.

 

I do realize that is exceptional, but I wanted to throw it out there.

Yeah, but they do have to live in the NY metro area on that, so it puts it in perspective. A member of the Houston Symphony currently makes about $90,000, which is solidly middle class in our low COL city. However, it's hard to get a spot in a major orchestra. Most music grads won't, even from top notch schools.

[Lavandula]

Yeah, but they do have to live in the NY metro area on that, so it puts it in perspective.

Cost of living is a big factor with these things. Dh could make much, much more if we moved somewhere like NYC. He made more when he was younger and lived in Silicon Valley. But the cost of living is ridiculous.

[Momof3littles]

At present I think it is possible to have a 4 year degree and work your way up, I just think over the next 10-20 years, that's going to become increasingly difficult.  IME, the number of professions that pay a decent wage with a 4 year degree just keeps dropping.  And I'm not talking about a salary that affords a McMansion and new cars.  Almost no one gets a pension, so when it matters in those early years, young people just don't have the extra $ to sock into a 401K in many cases, particularly at a time when they are loaded down with repaying student loans (even for more affordable programs IMO).  When I think of job prospects that pay a decent middle class salary, which I define as being able to save a little, put some $ into a 401K, drive a safe but not-new car, and afford a decent place to live (subjective, but I'm not thinking McMansion here), the pool of 4 year degree type jobs seems very, very small.  And those of course are increasingly competitive to get into, or are at risk being oversaturated in time.  When I even think of advanced degrees, I see the pool of jobs that will afford the above as surprisingly small too.  Law jobs are tough to come by even for those with extensive experience, many master's healthcare fields have high employment rates still but are often $$$ (I'm thinking PT, OT, SLP, Physician Assistant positions). STEM?  Still good, but in many cases, the majority of those jobs are such that young people will still be squeezed financially, especially with a bachelor's or even a master's.  We know of lots of both science and liberal arts PhDs who can't find a tenured position and move every few years as a result.  It is so tough these days in academia, especially for someone trying to break in.

[elegantlion]

My dad's generation worked at one job their entire career and retired with a pension. He's almost 77. I was told when I started working that I'd have about 7 different "careers" in my lifetime. I worked at several before becoming a SAHM, I'll have another one or two after I finish college. 

 

I believe our childrens' generation will redefine "career". "lucrative" is subjective and around here 100k is not a reasonable salary to expect for most careers. Wages are stagnant, even trades. I don't want ds chasing money (saying this as someone who has been middle class and poverty level). 

 

I see a lot of younger people working in industries that never existed before the Internet. I see people willing to work part-time and have less consumer goods to have more time and freedom. I see people doing contract work and making heavy use of networking. I believe the goals of many of my son's generation will not be a "good lucrative job" and a 4 bed 3 bath house with a new car every two years. I believe that the younger generation (as a whole) will be more interested in what they provide to the world. The paradigm of a good solid one job career is broken, imo. Also my opinion. I think jobs are moving toward project-based jobs, where people will have more fluidity and not expect long term. It's kind of scary, but is it really a bad thing? 

[mysticmomma]

Where in the US is there not a nursing shortage?