MiMi 4under3 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I was thinking one thing that OFTEN looks frumpy is "motif" clothing. Clothes with little (or, God forbid, big) kittens or sailboats or butterflies on them. It all depends... I just bought a gauzy, white, button-down shirt (at a discount store) with turquoise crabs on it. Definitely not frumpy! ETA: If anybody cares to post a link, it's Jacquelyn Smith brand from Kmart. :D I plan to wear it with white jean shorts (above mid thigh) and neutral colored sandals - either flat or medium heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thank God! I own a washable linen skirt from LL Bean. I own the J Jill dress, and I rock it. I think if you pair the ll bean skirt right, it certainly would not be frumpy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Everything I wear is jersey skirts that are mid calf. Well, not everything, but it's kind of my thing lately. Is that really frumpy? This is one of my favorite ones: https://www.etsy.com/listing/102135006/knee-length-teal-blue-a-line-soft-jersey?ref=shop_home_active_14 I like that. But I own the J Jill dress, so maybe I don't know frumpy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Whew! See, this is why I think it's partly how you wear something... Some people rock workout clothes and some people look... frumpy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Whew! See, this is why I think it's partly how you wear something... Some people rock workout clothes and some people look... frumpy. See, that is a good point. One of my SILs does that. Running shorts. Tank top. Sneaks. It looks terrible! It doesn't look "together" and, despite what she may hope, it doesn't look like, "I'm athletic and went for a run earlier." It just looks like, "Costco tanks were three-in-a-pack." I have a different SIL who is sometimes in athletic wear, but on her, it says, "I'm athletic and went for a run earlier." FWIW, I very rarely wear athletic gear out, unless I will actually be doing something athletic. I am a little paranoid that I will look like I rolled out of bed. I do want to look like I got dressed on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Well, I am wearing knee-length stretchy shorts, a long print mummu blouse that I purchased from Walmart five years ago, fip flops, uncombed hair, no makeup, and no manicure or pedicure. My guess is that's pretty frumpy. :oP.S.: The flip flops are Keen; does that un-frump me? :o No. No it does not. I'll admit to having no clue about handbag fashions and what's in or so out it makes you look frumpy. I'm also guilty of not tossing shoes when they start to show a little wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 No. No it does not. I'll admit to having no clue about handbag fashions and what's in or so out it makes you look frumpy. I'm also guilty of not tossing shoes when they start to show a little wear. "Show a little wear?" I routinely super glue my shoes back together and keep wearing them until they are truly not salvageable. I kept my last pair of sport sandals going for well over a year with careful super glue applications. I just bought a cute new handbag from Target, though. It was on clearance sale for $9 and nicely replaces the one on which I've had to sew the handle loops back in place a few times, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 You think? I dunno...I think even women with heavy legs can pull it off, as long as it's not insanely short. Oh, no. Trust me when I tell you that no one wants to see my knees poking out from under a skirt. At my current weight, it's not only possible but probably I would look frumpy in anything. But, wow, an above-the-knee skirt would be just awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Okay, those are cute, but I was thinking one thing that OFTEN looks frumpy is "motif" clothing. Clothes with little (or, God forbid, big) kittens or sailboats or butterflies on them. I feel just right in a mid-calf skirt. I remember way back when the "midi" came (back?) into style. I guess it was the 80's? Not sure. Anyway after years of minis and maxis the mid-calf gored skirt (full, not elastic waist) is still my favorite. With heels or boots, not flats! Combinations can be frumpy or not. I have a sort of peasant-type top that looks really frumpy and stupid with a skirt, but with slightly flared jeans and tall sandals it is not frumpy. Or at least that's what my daughter tells me, and I trust her taste as she always look great. ETA: Whoops, I quoted this because... motif tops, ugh! There is a store here that has some nice things but the tops all have designs on them. Beads and sequins on otherwise casual tops drive me nuts too. That screams frumpy-trying-to-be-cool to me. But, some people can pull them off! Not I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 You think? I dunno...I think even women with heavy legs can pull it off, as long as it's not insanely short. My knees, themselves, are awful, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I like the skirt farrar, I like a similar style myself. I wear with a little ballet flat and fitted shirt/tank. I don't wear heels period and if tpb think I have to have heels to be nonfrumpy that's ok. I also prefer mid-calf length although I've tried out some that are just above my knee lately, still not sure if I like that or not. I think what length of skirt looks good depends on your height and legs. I've seen people rock all lengths of skirt. eta fwiw I don't think everyone has to follow the latest fashion trends to be well dressed. I think it looks a bit boring when everyone dresses the same. I see people dressed in a variety of ways and think they look nice even if it is something I would never wear. I keep up with some fashions if I like them and think they look flattering but otherwise I ignore them, plenty of things come and go that I skip because I think they are hideous or don't look good on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Everything I wear is jersey skirts that are mid calf. Well, not everything, but it's kind of my thing lately. Is that really frumpy? This is one of my favorite ones: https://www.etsy.com/listing/102135006/knee-length-teal-blue-a-line-soft-jersey?ref=shop_home_active_14 That looks like a knee-length skirt in the photo. If it's mid-calf on you, I would ask the seller if she could hem the skirt before she adds the applique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 That looks like a knee-length skirt in the photo. If it's mid-calf on you, I would ask the seller if she could hem the skirt before she adds the applique. Why? If she likes it then why should she have it hemmed just because some random person on the internet has arbitrarily determined that the only right length of skirt is above the knee? eta I like the longer length because I can move around much more freely without worrying about showing off what I don't want to show. I think it looks better on me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Why? If she likes it then why should she have it hemmed just because some random person on the internet has arbitrarily determined that the only right length of skirt is above the knee? Actually, I don't think the only right length of skirt is above the knee. Ankle-length is fine. Mid-calf is unflattering because it hits the widest part of the leg and makes the wearer look heavier than she actually is. I doubt ANY of us really want to look heavier than we actually are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Everything I wear is jersey skirts that are mid calf. Well, not everything, but it's kind of my thing lately. Is that really frumpy? This is one of my favorite ones: https://www.etsy.com/listing/102135006/knee-length-teal-blue-a-line-soft-jersey?ref=shop_home_active_14 I like the cut of that skirt so much, I am going to find a pattern and make one. I am switching schools in August, and my new school is dressier. A couple of those skirts would be a great addition to my wardrobe. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 eta fwiw I don't think everyone has to follow the latest fashion trends to be well dressed. I think it looks a bit boring when everyone dresses the same. I see people dressed in a variety of ways and think they look nice even if it is something I would never wear. I keep up with some fashions if I like them and think they look flattering but otherwise I ignore them, plenty of things come and go that I skip because I think they are hideous or don't look good on me. I agree with this. I like many different things and it isn't always an across-the-board fact that everyone looks bad in this or everyone should wear that. I know what I like on myself and I know what I don't like on myself. A few years ago, I was seeing ladies wearing a summery top with a long, tiered skirt (I think it's called a "broom" skirt or something like that.) it looked so bohemian and beachy. But when I tried it on myself, I thought, "well, now that just does not look cute *AT ALL*!" I think there's something inherently "serious" about my look, so breezy and carefree just seems "off" on me. Truly, my problem is I know what I like when I stumble across it, but I don't know where to go to reliably find it. Sometimes, I like clothing at White House, Black Market, but not always. Sometimes I score at The Limited, other times not. Sometimes I find the perfect thing on my way through JC pennys, when I only meant to use the bathroom, KWIM? I bought a cute sundress last week at ABercrombie and I feel guilty about it, because I'm philosophically opposed to that company! Not to mention I'm 20+ years over their target market. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Actually, I don't think the only right length of skirt is above the knee. Ankle-length is fine. Mid-calf is unflattering because it hits the widest part of the leg and makes the wearer look heavier than she actually is. I doubt ANY of us really want to look heavier than we actually are! Actually, the widest part of my leg is above my knee. I like things that hit mid-calf, if I have to wear a dress or skirt, because they show only the least awful parts of my legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brilliant Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Actually, I don't think the only right length of skirt is above the knee. Ankle-length is fine. Mid-calf is unflattering because it hits the widest part of the leg and makes the wearer look heavier than she actually is. I doubt ANY of us really want to look heavier than we actually are! I agree that mid-calf is generally unflattering. It also looks dated, so it's on the frumpy spectrum. All my skirts are either above the knee, or maxi. I highly recommend maxi for anyone updating their look who doesn't like shorter skirts! I see them on women with all body types, and it looks flattering as long as the fabric isn't too clingy. (I ordered one in grey, loved it so much I ordered it in brown and the jersey was completely different & you could see every line and bulge - back it went!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Actually, the widest part of my leg is above my knee. I like things that hit mid-calf, if I have to wear a dress or skirt, because they show only the least awful parts of my legs. Sorry, I meant the widest part of the LOWER leg. Yeah, my calves are smaller than my thighs, LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I guess it's a little below the knee - between mid calf and knee. I'm short. I can fold over the top. I have some others that are an inch or two longer though. It's just funny... I am always finding things on here where people are like, "It's always wrong to...." in regards to fashion and I'm like, "It IS? I had no clue." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I think another thing to remember is that clothes may wear out before they give out. Although I can't afford this advice, this is where I think investing into better clothes helps. The stretchy yoga pants from Kohl's cheap brand wore out after about 2 seasons. They didn't stay in shape, I'm short and they were long so the ends were frayed (not in a hip way either), the knees were stretched out. Even the way you launder clothes can make a difference. I hang most of my clothes to let them air dry, they don't shrink. I also wash them so they don't spin at a high rate, which can twist clothes. There is a point in the life of a garment when what was once cute could be frumpy. I have a huge oversized hooded sweatshirt I adore. It's getting too worn to be cute and instead looks as if I'm hiding something like an inner tube at the bottom. I've been doing project 333 and lots of people take pictures of their outfits while wearing them, that's a huge way to tell if you look frumpy or ill-fitted. It's also hugely eye-opening if you have body image issues. (in a good or bad way sometimes) I think confidence is a huge thing too. Straighten your posture, walk with purpose and you automatically appear less frumpy, even if you're wearing yoga pants and tennis shoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostSurprise Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I think there are looks which are attractive or unattractive on certain individuals, but I don't really believe in the word 'frumpy.' It's a value judgement which doesn't take into account difficulty of finding clothing in your size or shape, age, social or religious group, part of the country, poverty, depression, or personality/personal preference. I think we each have our own 'frump' rules and that's fine. It might be that you put on make up when you go out, or you don't wear t-shirts with words on them. The idea is that you feel confident and good about your look. The only real frump should be in your own personal standards for yourself. Modern standards of fashion will change. I've seen women who rocked spangled jersey outfits (something I would never wear) because they looked comfortable and happy, and if the outfit didn't match society's idea of a great outfit it certainly reflected their own interior personality and just seemed right. And I get tired of catty discussions. There's a world of people out there and plenty of ideas of what looks good. Why do we have to listen to one specific group? Or even care? Is what we wear what makes us attractive? Because I'll tell you something, people were attracted to each other back in the '80s when they had big hair and stirrup pants. Ditto in the '90s when it was oversized men's flannels, Doc Martens, and flowery dresses. Clothes have very little to do with attraction, and a lot to do with feeling confident and exploring who we are. In general, I see 'frump' as the discussion of ageing women who worry about their looks and seek to codify looking good in order to feel more comfortable. That's fine..until you start thinking that laws ever mean the same thing for everyone. They don't, and the more we insist the more insulated and poor of mind we become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 In general, I see 'frump' as the discussion of ageing women who worry about their looks and seek to codify looking good in order to feel more comfortable. That's fine..until you start thinking that laws ever mean the same thing for everyone. They don't, and the more we insist the more insulated and poor of mind we become. Good point. When I think of frumpy, I generally apply it solely to myself. I really don't care what other people are wearing. Now I have to the store, I'm currently still in pjs. I wonder how long it will take me to get dressed this morning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pehp Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Everything I wear is jersey skirts that are mid calf. Well, not everything, but it's kind of my thing lately. Is that really frumpy? This is one of my favorite ones: https://www.etsy.com/listing/102135006/knee-length-teal-blue-a-line-soft-jersey?ref=shop_home_active_14 Not frumpy! This is a lot like what I wear as well. But I sew my own. By hand. It is lunacy but it is my relaxation time. I'm kind of obsessed. My hemlines are slightly higher, though--knee-ish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElaineJ Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I always feel somewhat depressed after reading or hearing fashion advice, I think because it makes me so self conscious. I want to be neat and clean and show respect for myself and others through my clothing, but I absolutely hate having to worry about what I wear. And it is a worry, because I have no natural fashion sense and no genuine interest in clothing at all, really. Now I've learned that I like frumpy skirts. So I have to decide if that is communicating a lack of respect for myself to others, obligating me to spend money buying skirts I don't like on myself. Bleh. I think those who are artistic in their clothing or just enjoy creating beauty through their clothing choices are delightful. I just wish it wasn't an obligation for me, I guess. And I wish that what looked and felt nice to me wasn't (almost always) unfashionable. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I always feel somewhat depressed after reading or hearing fashion advice, I think because it makes me so self conscious. I want to be neat and clean and show respect for myself and others through my clothing, but I absolutely hate having to worry about what I wear. And it is a worry, because I have no natural fashion sense and no genuine interest in clothing at all, really. Now I've learned that I like frumpy skirts. So I have to decide if that is communicating a lack of respect for myself to others, obligating me to spend money buying skirts I don't like on myself. Bleh. I think those who are artistic in their clothing or just enjoy creating beauty through their clothing choices are delightful. I just wish it wasn't an obligation for me, I guess. And I wish that what looked and felt nice to me wasn't (almost always) unfashionable. Elaine :grouphug: Elaine, the skirt that looks frumpy on someone else might look fabulous on you. The outfit that looks gorgeous on a 5'10" model isn't going to look the same on 5'5" tall me, even if we have the same body type. She's going to look all willowy and I'm just going to look like an idiot, because the proportions will be all wrong for me and the curves will be in all the wrong places. Buy what you think looks nice on you, and people will think you look nice, too, because you'll exude confidence. If you really don't know what looks good on you, make an appointment with a personal shopper in a store you like, and let him or her pick out a bunch of outfits for you to try on. You won't have to buy much, but it will give you a great lesson on which styles to gravitate toward and which ones to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Elaine- Forget about it, wear what makes you feel good and you like! You can never please everyone. Personally I'm not going back to the days like when I was in highschool paralyzed to pick out what I like as someone will think I'm not cool enough or don't have the right clothes. Anyone who cares that much can and judges me negatively because I don't fit their mold is not for me. I pick out clothes that make me feel good and are comfy, clothes that accentuate my best features and are feminine. I don't want to dress exactly like everyone else. I have confidence and I own it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I think there is a point were I would say, "Too bad if it is frumpy, I'm going to wear it anyway." Heels seem to be equated with non-frumpy, but I never ever wear them. I have a bunion. All my dress shoes are round toed flats. All my sandals are thong style and flat. In the winter I wear wide width leather clogs. I'm not going to ruin my feet wearing anything that puts pressure on my toe joints. I only buy shoes that I think are pretty and comfortable. That's good enough. I once heard a young lady say out loud that it was "immodest" to dress conspicuously different than those around you, because it draws attention to yourself. (she was not referring to the amount of skin shown) Unless you are in a formal setting, I say pbbbt! She was referring to me because, at the time, I rarely wore makeup, had very long hair, and my skirts were below my calf. I don't think it's anyone else's business what people wear, unless they ask for advice. I've always believed that public comments about another's appearance are rude. Dress is a personal expression. It may be saying, "I need friendship and compassion" or "I don't have any money to buy new clothes" when someone else is thinking "frumpy." It may also be saying, "I don't really care what you think, I'm going to wear what I like." The only way to know which one is to get to know the person. Respect for the human being inside the clothes should be independent of what they are wearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For me, if I wear something fitted on top and looser on the bottom, or vice versa, then it hits the right spot between frumpy and overly exposed (for my time of life and body shape). L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Takeaway from this thread: There are people out there judging what you're wearing to the grocery store. Dress appropriately! I don't plan to take my own advice, however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belacqua Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Takeaway from this thread: There are people out there judging what you're wearing to the grocery store. Dress appropriately! I don't plan to take my own advice, however... Hmmm. My nearest grocery is a glorified bait shop. So if I'm wearing a shirt, I'll probably be considered quite overdressed. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwallowTail Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Women over a certain age are told not to wear skirts that come to their ankle. Knee length looks best on me, but my wardrobe conssts of several mid-calf length skirts that are from a very fashionable vendor, and I pair them with fitted cotton-t's and jewelry if I am so inclined. I cannot wear heels anymore due to torn ankle ligaments, so I wear the nicest shoes I can, which also happen to have to be supportive (orthaheel sandals, most often). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 For me, if I wear something fitted on top and looser on the bottom, or vice versa, then it hits the right spot between frumpy and overly exposed (for my time of life and body shape). L This is really good advice. Just wanted to bump it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Strawberry Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I tend not to think of myself as frumpy because I have a somewhat whacky sense of style. I wear maxi skirts, maxi dresses, upcycled tops, barefoot shoes. I'm the quintessential modern hippie. But, yeah. I guess if long skirts and sack dresses are frumpy, then that's me. I do braid my hair in complicated, Frozen inspired styles, I keep up with Pinterest, make my own clothes, and I don't wear makeup because I have a stunning, glowing complexion :) I HATE baggy t shirts, and boxy pants on women. If you wear them, I will judge you. But really, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I like the cut of that skirt so much, I am going to find a pattern and make one. I am switching schools in August, and my new school is dressier. A couple of those skirts would be a great addition to my wardrobe. Thanks! So I bought a pattern and made a similarly shaped skirt in a white floral print with a black background today. It took about two hours to make. It falls just above my knee. I plan to wear it with a fitted black t-shirt and a white jean jacket or cardigan. Or maybe a fitted white t-shirt and a grey or black cardigan. Black sandals or flip flops, depending on where I am going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I think there are looks which are attractive or unattractive on certain individuals, but I don't really believe in the word 'frumpy.' It's a value judgement which doesn't take into account difficulty of finding clothing in your size or shape, age, social or religious group, part of the country, poverty, depression, or personality/personal preference. I think we each have our own 'frump' rules and that's fine. It might be that you put on make up when you go out, or you don't wear t-shirts with words on them. The idea is that you feel confident and good about your look. The only real frump should be in your own personal standards for yourself. Modern standards of fashion will change. I've seen women who rocked spangled jersey outfits (something I would never wear) because they looked comfortable and happy, and if the outfit didn't match society's idea of a great outfit it certainly reflected their own interior personality and just seemed right. And I get tired of catty discussions. There's a world of people out there and plenty of ideas of what looks good. Why do we have to listen to one specific group? Or even care? Is what we wear what makes us attractive? Because I'll tell you something, people were attracted to each other back in the '80s when they had big hair and stirrup pants. Ditto in the '90s when it was oversized men's flannels, Doc Martens, and flowery dresses. Clothes have very little to do with attraction, and a lot to do with feeling confident and exploring who we are. In general, I see 'frump' as the discussion of ageing women who worry about their looks and seek to codify looking good in order to feel more comfortable. That's fine..until you start thinking that laws ever mean the same thing for everyone. They don't, and the more we insist the more insulated and poor of mind we become. Post of the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 And I get tired of catty discussions. There's a world of people out there and plenty of ideas of what looks good. Why do we have to listen to one specific group? Or even care? Is what we wear what makes us attractive? Because I'll tell you something, people were attracted to each other back in the '80s when they had big hair and stirrup pants. Ditto in the '90s when it was oversized men's flannels, Doc Martens, and flowery dresses. Clothes have very little to do with attraction, and a lot to do with feeling confident and exploring who we are. I know, and it seems amazing to me. I sometimes wonder if some of the styles called 'classic' today 20-30 years form now will look as horrible as stirrup pants and big hair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacharsis Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I have never found a better description than my Grandmothers. Frumpy = looking like you are wearing a potato sack with a string tied round the middle. Yesterday's frumpy is often tomorrow's high fashion. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Everything I wear is jersey skirts that are mid calf. Well, not everything, but it's kind of my thing lately. Is that really frumpy? This is one of my favorite ones: https://www.etsy.com/listing/102135006/knee-length-teal-blue-a-line-soft-jersey?ref=shop_home_active_14 But.....that skirt isnt mid calf. I love it though. The boots might be too much for my comfort in style, but look cute on the model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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