Parenting bias (s/o equal footing & gentle parenting)

[Katy]

So a couple people confessed that they took a joke literally in another thread because they'd known ridiculously controlling parents and b/c of a thread I wasn't privy to.

 

I think of us as strict.  We don't have many rules, but we are very consistent about them.  Most of our rules have to do with respect and instant obedience (for safety). We're not crazy control freaks though.  We want them to become whoever they want to become, even if it's someone very different from us.

 

My mom had some mental health issues when I was a kid and I never knew what to expect from her - literally a behavior that got me ice cream one day when I was little got me a spanking the very next day.  I literally think she had some subset of borderline personality disorder that only showed up when she was depressed.  Anyway, the day I got that spanking I resolved to always be very strict with my own kids.  Not strict in a controlling sense, strict in a consistent sense so they always knew what to expect and so things were always fair and predictable.

 

 

 

My very limited experience with the "attachment" and "gentle" parents I know in real life has been almost universally bad.  In each case the parent has no boundaries with the child. The child does whatever they want.  In one case I was getting to know a mother of a six year old that refused to bathe for weeks, refused to eat anything healthy, refused to have combed hair. Basically the child was in control of every aspect of her life from the time she was old enough to throw a tantrum.  The mother won't tell the child no, so basically she lies to the child constantly.  One example:  a cartoon the girl liked did an episode on vegetarianism.  The child decided to be a vegetarian.   The mother told her that chicken was vegetarian. I was there for an hour and the mom lied to the girl about completely obvious things at least twice. The child was told to take a bath and refused.  The mother threw a tantrum, started crying, and stomped off and slammed the master bedroom door WHILE I WAS VISITING.

 

Another example... a 15 year old girl who was shoved into the "best" private school but where she has no friends because she has no social skills. She's getting a C average because she never does any homework and her boyfriend moved in to her bedroom (at 15!) when his mother kicked him out.  Her mother bought her a bigger bed so they could sleep together more comfortably.  Her mother is sure that this child is going to medical school.

 

Being home schoolers, I tend to interact with people who have more rules for their kids, not less, so those are literally my only (very biased) examples.  I did have not-close friends in school though with very relaxed parents with no rules, and most of them were literally having rainbow (TEA) parties at 12 years old with 17 & 18 year old boys.  The thought of that going on with sixth graders horrifies me.

 

 

 

So some people here tend to think that everyone who demands respect or obedience from their kids (like me) are controlling abusers of authority.  My own personal bias is that people who don't give their kids any structure or consequences are too weak to stand up to their own kids and are turning them into whiny entitled narcissists who are completely unprepared for the real world.  Now obviously this isn't true.  Obviously at least some of you have given VERY GOOD advice that I've used with my own kids.  So I want to know...  How did you become "gentle" parents, what does that mean to you, and how do your kids get discipline and structure if you don't require respect from them?

 

*Obviously this could create all sorts of flame wars, but I mean no disrespect.  I am honestly interested in cultural differences and things I don't understand.   For the purposes of this thread let's just assume everyone is trying to be a great parent and speak from a personal perspective.

 

Tell me how my biases are wrong.

[Guest submarines]

Lying to a child is by definition not gentle parenting.  Gentle parenting implies respect.

 

I don't require respect--respect is just there, kwim? I respect my children, and they respect me. My oldest is 12, so some might say, wait until she's older, but I don't think true respect and mutual trust just disappear under normal circumstances. I don't think that respect which is "required" is true respect, though.

[LucyStoner]

I think there is a tendency to write seriousness that addresses personal issues off as humorlessness. I was one of the supposedly humorless peeps on that thread yet that doesn't really mesh with who I am. Not even a little teensy bit.

Now that THAT's out of the way ;) , I will say I came by gentle parenting because it is what works for my sons and for me. I have a son with ASD. Anything that comes off as oppositional sets bad fires here. Before anyone calls the fire department, that's figurative.

Also, my husband comes from an abusive home and there are many abusive pockets on my family tree. As such, we emphasize boundaries, respect, and personal autonomy. A lot. Abusive parents like my FIL don't respect boundaries with their children and don't see their children as separate, autonomous humans. He was hardly alone.  Lots of abusive parents think that they own their children and then all of the sudden the kids become adults at 18 or 22 or whatever and are no longer the parent's "problem". My husband and I believe instead that we are all humans and we are developing into adults continuously as children and adolescents.

I also saw a lot of my peers from strict authoritarian homes where the kids' childhoods were basically a master class in faking it and learning how to not get caught. That's not how I was with my mom and it's not what I want for my kids.

When authoritarian parenting fails, I have seen it up close and personal escalate to abuse. Serious abuse from well meaning parents who do love their children but who really don't respect their children. When you think your kid must do as you say because you are the adult and they are the kid, wtf are you left to do when they really truly won't (perhaps in some cases because they CAN'T due to age or neurological difference)? If you are entitled to control them, it's way too easy to feel entitled to physically manhandle them. I know, because I have been there. I got very low after my mom died and it seemed like my son wasn't behaving well. I realized that he wasn't regulating well but he wasn't learning how to regulate well watching a depressed mother either. I realized I had to regulate myself first before expecting better from him. There were moments when I thought, said or did things that I really object to. Mercifully, these moments were few. It's not uncommon for parents to, pre-diagnosis, view ASD as a behavior problem because they don't know what is going on. Not only did these things not help, they hurt all of us. My approach isn't without structure, boundaries, limits and expectations at all. It's just that the structure comes from all of us, not just from me. My son needs a lot more routine and structure than the average child because of his ASD. What he doesn't need is someone trying to control or force or fix him.

Is gentle parenting a panacea? No, but things go way, way better for ALL of us this way.

[OneStepAtATime]

I think one of the issues is that a lot of us are working with different definitions.  I, for instance, would consider "gentle" parenting to be something like how my mom was.  She was consistent in her rules and expectations, her rules were not over the top and made a lot of sense, and she was very supportive, respectful and understanding.  We rarely argued because she rarely got upset.  She almost NEVER raised her voice.  I knew that no matter what I did, she still loved me, even when I royally goofed up.  She was gentle but that doesn't mean she wasn't firm.  She discussed when needed and was firm in her decisions when needed and because she did not arbitrarily assign rules, or change rules, or only apply rules every other Thursday or whatever, I believed her when she said something needed to be done and done right away, etc.  Does that make sense?

 

When I hear about parents who are "strict" my definition, I have found, is different from that of many others.  In my childhood I did know parents that my own family considered strict.  And in those instances the rules seemed arbitrary, children had no say so in anything, they were basically told to just be quiet unless spoken to, had no real rights in their own home and were treated as if they should not be allowed independent thoughts, desires or beliefs.  But as an adult I realize that a lot of people define strict very differently than I did.  Strict for many means simply having consistent structure, for instance, whereas gentle for some means no structure or limited structure, etc.

 

I guess when different posters have different definitions of the same terms it makes it harder to really understand what the other is saying and sometimes it leads to some pretty colossal mis-communications.  :)

[AlmiraGulch]

I also think that "gentle parenting" is a spectrum.

 

I do not think parents can demand respect from their children.  In my opinion, what some parents may call "respect" is actually a child toeing the line out of fear.  I'm not into that.  I had enough of that in my life.

 

That said, letting kids run crazy, control the household, failing to hold kids to any standards at all...this is not parenting at all, in my opinion.  I think that many of us have the same outcome of well behaved, creative, thoughtful, good kids, but we go about it in different ways.  

 

I'm not quite as gentle or relaxed (or whatever you want to call it) as others here, but I do not spank, I try as much as possible to not be punitive (although sometimes it's the most logical consequence), and I try not to be authoritarian.   I do raise my voice more than I'd like, although not as much as I used to.  But when I do and I realize I was just really pissed off and completely out of line, I apologize.  I talk to them.  We have conversations about how to handle things differently on both of our parts in the future.  

 

From my perspective, it's about viewing your kids as kids.  Human beings to be taught and nurtured and coached and encouraged, rather than as tiny little adults that should have all the skills of adults, or animals to be trained, or sociopathic little demons that need to be broken. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

Katy- what the heck is a "rainbow (TEA) party"? You don't mean a sex party, do you? Because a 12 year old allowed to go to sex parties is being sexually abused, not parented in any way, shape or form.

 

I don't think your examples sound like gentle parents so much as ineffective parents. Tantruming mom? Needs to get her shit together. 15 year old living with boyfriend? There are much more effective ways to help a homeless 15 year old boy than buying your daughter a larger bed, even if you are ok with your teenager having sex in her bedroom.

[NASDAQ]

I live in hippie-land. Everyone here is pretty AP, no one more so than the home schoolers.

 

The vast majority of children in my city grow up to be responsible, pleasant people who get fine grades and sleep in their own beds before high school.

 

I don't think these types of parenting practices make that much difference, with the exception that people With Issues are drawn towards extremes.

 

Requiring respect from my kids has just never been a huge thing in my life. They're all horrors at two and lovely by five. They won't sleep alone as babies or toddlers but they will as school-aged kids. They're very attached and go to pieces if I frown or say a few slightly cross things, so stronger punishment or rigid rules haven't been necessary. They're generally obedient but not instantly obedient. That's good enough for my family and my life.

[Carrie12345]

I do not subscribe to "gentle parenting" myself, but I easily recognize the difference between gentle parenting and NOT parenting, which your examples seem to be.

 

Some people feel I'm very strict.  Others feel I'm very lax/permissive/whatever you want to call it.  So clearly there's no suiting everyone. ;-)  I have my hills worth dying on and my kids know what they are. 

 

That said, they test my boundaries every. single. day.  It drives me nuts, but it's actually exactly what I want.  I don't want blindly obedient kids b/c I don't want them to be blindly obedient adults.  And, like a previous poster mentioned, I don't want fake respect.  I don't deserve respect simply for procreating.  It comes from actions, and I like to think my kids and I act equally worthy (most of the time, lol) of genuine respect.

[NASDAQ]

A Rainbow Tea Party sounds like something my eight-year-old would be totally into, but I'm guessing it's not what I'm thinking of.

[LucyStoner]

I don't deserve respect simply for procreating.

Exactly.

[LucyStoner]

A Rainbow Tea Party sounds like something my eight-year-old would be totally into, but I'm guessing it's not what I'm thinking of.

Yeah, my 5 year old is down for a rainbow tea party. Preferably with teddy bears and picnic style, please. I inferred it was something else though. I probably don't even want to know.

[Catwoman]

So a couple people confessed that they took a joke literally in another thread because they'd known ridiculously controlling parents and b/c of a thread I wasn't privy to.

 

I think of us as strict. We don't have many rules, but we are very consistent about them. Most of our rules have to do with respect and instant obedience (for safety). We're not crazy control freaks though. We want them to become whoever they want to become, even if it's someone very different from us.

 

My mom had some mental health issues when I was a kid and I never knew what to expect from her - literally a behavior that got me ice cream one day when I was little got me a spanking the very next day. I literally think she had some subset of borderline personality disorder that only showed up when she was depressed. Anyway, the day I got that spanking I resolved to always be very strict with my own kids. Not strict in a controlling sense, strict in a consistent sense so they always knew what to expect and so things were always fair and predictable.

 

 

 

My very limited experience with the "attachment" and "gentle" parents I know in real life has been almost universally bad. In each case the parent has no boundaries with the child. The child does whatever they want. In one case I was getting to know a mother of a six year old that refused to bathe for weeks, refused to eat anything healthy, refused to have combed hair. Basically the child was in control of every aspect of her life from the time she was old enough to throw a tantrum. The mother won't tell the child no, so basically she lies to the child constantly. One example: a cartoon the girl liked did an episode on vegetarianism. The child decided to be a vegetarian. The mother told her that chicken was vegetarian. I was there for an hour and the mom lied to the girl about completely obvious things at least twice. The child was told to take a bath and refused. The mother threw a tantrum, started crying, and stomped off and slammed the master bedroom door WHILE I WAS VISITING.

 

Another example... a 15 year old girl who was shoved into the "best" private school but where she has no friends because she has no social skills. She's getting a C average because she never does any homework and her boyfriend moved in to her bedroom (at 15!) when his mother kicked him out. Her mother bought her a bigger bed so they could sleep together more comfortably. Her mother is sure that this child is going to medical school.

 

Being home schoolers, I tend to interact with people who have more rules for their kids, not less, so those are literally my only (very biased) examples. I did have not-close friends in school though with very relaxed parents with no rules, and most of them were literally having rainbow (TEA) parties at 12 years old with 17 & 18 year old boys. The thought of that going on with sixth graders horrifies me.

 

So some people here tend to think that everyone who demands respect or obedience from their kids (like me) are controlling abusers of authority. My own personal bias is that people who don't give their kids any structure or consequences are too weak to stand up to their own kids and are turning them into whiny entitled narcissists who are completely unprepared for the real world. Now obviously this isn't true.

I don't think the examples you listed demonstrate "gentle" parenting or "attachment" parenting. They look more like plain old "terrible" parenting to me!

 

There are extremes on both the strict side and the lenient side, but I would think the vast majority of us fall somewhere in the middle. I may be less strict than you are, but I wouldn't tolerate my ds being rude or nasty to me, any more than you would put up with it from your kids. Our basic expectations in terms of having a decent attitude and being respectful to others is probably pretty similar, even if our methods of achieving those things is different. You might have a policy of obedience on demand and I might believe in having a discussion about it, but I'm sure neither of us is beating our kids with big sticks, so as long as both families are happy, it's all good, right?

 

And again, having a more gentle or relaxed parenting style doesn't equal letting a kid do anything he wants, whether it's because it's harmful to himself or someone else, or simply because it's just plain rude. Common sense has to play a part in all of this stuff, too! :)

 

I think some people think "not a lot of rules" equates to kids running wild, but I don't think that is generally the case. It's more a matter of trying to set good examples, as well as modeling proper responses when kids mess up, so they'll know what to do the next time around.

 

Did I make any sense at all?

[NASDAQ]

Yeah, my 5 year old is down for a rainbow tea party. Preferably with teddy bears and picnic style, please. I inferred it was something else though. I probably don't even want to know.

 

And fairies. Maybe flower fairies.

 

[Farrar]

I've had bad experiences like that with people who are attachment parenting.  People with no boundaries, who have kids who are basically little monsters crying out for some consistency and rules and the parents are afraid for all kinds of reasons to give it to them.

 

I've had bad experiences with strict, traditionalist parents whose kids are just plain downtrodden, who are clearly crying out to have a little control over their own lives, who are growing resentment like a bumper crop of kudzu toward their parents.

 

I think most people aren't at those extreme ends.  We're gentle discipline people.  I have what I consider to be pretty good boundaries in my house.  There are very clear things that are absolutely not negotiable.  Those things include safety, but also respect for others, though that respect is based on the fact that we're all human.  I model and expect manners.  I also expect that my kids will be kids and that they'll have a learning curve for this stuff.  I respect that they're children who need time and patience and continued instruction to learn.

 

In general, I see my relationship with my kids as a sort of contract.  I agree to teach, they agree to learn.  I agree to provide them with all their needs, they agree to learn how to eventually provide for their own needs.  I put down rules, but I agree to only give reasonable rules that I'm willing to explain.  They agree to follow those rules.  I keep the house, they have to help and clean up their own messes.  I demand their respect, but I respect them in return.  I provide the benefit of experience, they learn from that experience.  If I don't fulfill my end of this contract, then I can't expect them to fulfill their end either.  It has to have both sides - both them respecting me and me respecting them.

[Catwoman]

A Rainbow Tea Party sounds like something my eight-year-old would be totally into, but I'm guessing it's not what I'm thinking of.

  

Yeah, my 5 year old is down for a rainbow tea party. Preferably with teddy bears and picnic style, please. I inferred it was something else though. I probably don't even want to know.

Here's more than you want to know.

 

It's a party where the girls all wear different colored lipsticks and take turns performing a certain activity on the boys at the party. The boys end up with a rainbow of lipstick colors on a certain appendage.

 

I think it's absolutely sickening and degrading. :ack2:

[LucyStoner]

 

Here's more than you want to know.

 

It's a party where the girls all wear different colored lipsticks and take turns performing a certain activity on the boys at the party. The boys end up with a rainbow of lipstick colors on a certain appendage.

 

I think it's absolutely sickening and degrading. :ack2:

Then I underscore that letting a 12 year old go to that is sexual abuse.

 

And raising boys who would accept sexual gratification in that context is all kinds of f-ed up.

[Jilly]

I don't think the examples you listed demonstrate "gentle" parenting or "attachment" parenting. They look more like plain old "terrible" parenting to me!

 

 

:iagree:

[Alexigail]

None of what you wrote sounds like "gentle parenting" to me.  It sounds like neglect.  I'm not a "gentle" or "attachment" parent per se, but I probably lean more towards it than many.  

 

To me, gentle parenting has to do with honesty and respect.  I have the expectation that my kids will do what I ask them to do and they have the expectation that what I ask of them will be reasonable and consistent.  We talk a lot about consequences and problem solving.  For instance, if someone has a tantrum I tell them "If you choose to scream and kick, you will have to do it in your room because no one else should have to listen to it.  When you scream and kick you don't get what you want.  Ever."  Then I have to follow through on what I say by never giving in.  I try to have a good reason for what I'm asking them to do.  They're allowed to ask questions but they know the answer might be "I'm not going to discuss it right now, I just need you to do it."  I don't expect unquestioning obedience from my kids, but I do expect that they will respect me in the rare instances that I need them to obey me.  They do this because they know they can trust me to have a good reason.  When I'm wrong, I apologize and when they're wrong I ask them to do the same.  If they ask for something and it seem reasonable I usually let them have it.  If it's not reasonable I tell them why.  ("I won't buy you a new toy because I've asked you to pick up the toys you already had and you didn't do it.  That shows me you're not ready to care for a new toy." or simply "that's not something we can afford right now, but I can help you to save up for it if there's something you really want."

I really don't have a lot of "rules", I guess.  I just expect them to do their best.  They know their best doesn't include tantrums or treating people badly.  

 

Of course, I'm talking about me on my best days.  There are days when the answer is "Ask your dad, please."

[Greta]

My parents were definitely toward the strict/authoritarian end of the spectrum, to the point that it damaged my relationship with them (though eventually it was repaired) and that it set my brothers on a dangerous path when they left home (luckily everything worked out okay in the end). I knew that I wanted to do something different.

 

When my daughter was a toddler, I got lots of complements on how well I had taught her to say please and thank you. The thing is, I never "taught" her that in the sense that those people meant it. I never "made" her say it, I never instructed her to say it. I simply said those things to her when it was appropriate to do so. And so she learned it naturally. And that's a big part of what gentle parenting means to me: showing your children the respect that you want them to show you and others.

 

It doesn't mean being permissive, or simply NOT being a parent (like in the examples you gave -- if that were my only knowledge of gentle parenting, I'd be pretty repulsed too! But that's not gentle parenting at all). It does mean being the example that you want your kids to follow. (Though believe me I know how miserably I have failed at this.) It means emphasizing cooperation rather than authority. It means emphasizing forgiveness rather than punishment.

 

For me personally, becoming a Christian (4 years ago) really strengthened my belief in gentle parenting, because God and my fellow Christians accepted me completely, terrible sinner though I was an am, without any punishment, but with love, forgiveness, and compassion. The story of the prodigal son is such a huge inspiration to me. The father in that story welcomes his son back with pure love and joy. God allows us to experience the consequences of our sins, but he does not punish us for them. So I try very hard to apply that same principle with my daughter.

 

My daughter is 14 now and I'm still getting complements on how polite, thoughtful, and sincere she is. But to be perfectly honest with you, I don't think that has much at all to do with my parenting. I think she's just good-natured!

[Catwoman]

Then I underscore that letting a 12 year old go to that is sexual abuse.

 

And raising boys who would accept sexual gratification in that context is all kinds of f-ed up.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I agree with you 1000%.

 

Who ever thought something like that was a good idea?????????

[Amy in NH]

Respect must be earned.  If it has to be demanded then it's not real respect, it's just lip service.

[LucyStoner]

Respect must be earned. If it has to be demanded then it's not real respect, it's just lip service.

You are not allowed to use the words "lip service" right after someone explains what "rainbow" parties are.

 

Otherwise, I agree. :D

[Farrar]

Good grief on the Rainbow Party thing.  Like everyone is saying, that's neglect and abuse, not "relaxed parenting."  To me, a "relaxed" parent can still have rules, it's just that they're minimal, they make sense, they're about safety.  And that's about safety.  Relaxed parenting isn't no parenting.

[Greta]

Feeling slightly nauseated about the rainbow party thing. Lord have mercy.

[Katy]

Wow.  Thanks everyone.  I for one am feeling much better about the concept of "gentle" parenting. I think we're all a lot more alike than I realized.  I agree that my examples were neglect, but they're also the only real-life interactions I've had that lectured me on why relaxed or attachment parenting was so much better than mine.  

 

Oh, and I have no idea if the parents of those girls I went to school with had any idea what they were up to, but they had no rules and no supervision, and that was by far the worst thing I heard about from them, it was just the earliest horrifying thing I heard from them.  Since without exception they all ended up either pregnant multiple times or dropped out before graduation, I'm sure the parents had an idea of what they were up to sooner or later.  Since I was also twelve at the time it didn't occur to me to tell someone they were being abused.  It just seemed like appallingly bad behavior at the time. 

 

I do require what we call respect from our kids, but I expect them to respect ALL people by virtue of being human, and I expect them to be polite to older people who aren't part of our family (assuming it's not a safety issue, obviously). 

 

Does everyone here who bristles at the concept of respect have a different definition?  What does "real respect" mean to you?

 

 

[Greta]

Does everyone here who bristles at the concept of respect have a different definition? What does "real respect" mean to you?

I don't bristle at the concept of respect, I just think it is something that cannot be required or forced. It has to be earned. Even by parents.

[Catwoman]

Does everyone here who bristles at the concept of respect have a different definition? What does "real respect" mean to you?

I don't think any of us are anti-respect.

 

It's just that we see a difference between earned respect and forced respect ("because I'm your parent and you have to do whatever I say, the first time every time, or else you'll be punished.")

 

What some people call respect, I view as obedience, where the kids have to behave respectfully or else they'll be in trouble.

 

But do they FEEL respectful? That's my question.

 

I want my ds to respect me because I try to be fair and kind and to do the right thing. I want him to respect me because I treat him in the way I would like to be treated.

 

I know a woman who deludes herself into thinking that her ds respects her, because she demands certain responses from him when he does something wrong, and if he doesn't toe the line, he gets punished. Well, this boy puts on an Academy Award-worthy performance for her, parroting the phrases she believes shows that he knows he did something wrong and he's sorry and he loves her so very much... but he rolls his eyes behind her back as soon as she walks away from him.

 

I don't want that kind of respect.

[mommymilkies]

None of what you wrote sounds like "gentle parenting" to me.  It sounds like neglect.  I'm not a "gentle" or "attachment" parent per se, but I probably lean more towards it than many.  

 

To me, gentle parenting has to do with honesty and respect.  I have the expectation that my kids will do what I ask them to do and they have the expectation that what I ask of them will be reasonable and consistent.  We talk a lot about consequences and problem solving.  For instance, if someone has a tantrum I tell them "If you choose to scream and kick, you will have to do it in your room because no one else should have to listen to it.  When you scream and kick you don't get what you want.  Ever."  Then I have to follow through on what I say by never giving in.  I try to have a good reason for what I'm asking them to do.  They're allowed to ask questions but they know the answer might be "I'm not going to discuss it right now, I just need you to do it."  I don't expect unquestioning obedience from my kids, but I do expect that they will respect me in the rare instances that I need them to obey me.  They do this because they know they can trust me to have a good reason.  When I'm wrong, I apologize and when they're wrong I ask them to do the same.  If they ask for something and it seem reasonable I usually let them have it.  If it's not reasonable I tell them why.  ("I won't buy you a new toy because I've asked you to pick up the toys you already had and you didn't do it.  That shows me you're not ready to care for a new toy." or simply "that's not something we can afford right now, but I can help you to save up for it if there's something you really want."

I really don't have a lot of "rules", I guess.  I just expect them to do their best.  They know their best doesn't include tantrums or treating people badly.  

 

Of course, I'm talking about me on my best days.  There are days when the answer is "Ask your dad, please."

:iagree:

 

I am a Gentle-ish AP parent.  I have known a couple who claimed the title and used it to hide behind being a permissive parent.  I have also met permissive parents who wouldn't know what AP was if it smacked them in the face.  And the same with the opposite end.  I think some people give bad names to belief systems by claiming something they obviously know nothing about.  Gentle discipline incorporates just that.  It is not a name for being a doormat or a neglectful parent.  In some circles, I am a strict mom, and in some I am way laid back.  It depends on how you look at it.  Do I yell? Yes.  But I try not to, and I often apologize when I do because yelling is from my own personal issues.  But I don't hit, I try never to shame or belittle or break a child.  We work together and I do have limits, rules, and expectations.  I also believe respect must be earned.  The people in my life I respect the most are those who have shown respect and done things to deserve it-not those who I "should" respect based on blood or age.  My goal is a healthy relationship with my children so that they grow up to be happy and functional adults.  Keeping our relationship based on respect and love means that we can hopefully ride through the hard times with a little less road rash. 

[NASDAQ]

I'm not against respect. I just don't think about it a lot on a day-to-day basis.

 

I would love my kids to be sitting around looking back on their childhood and to feel that they respect me and they respect the decisions I made. But as long as they're not being actively unpleasant, I don't worry about whether they feel respect for me at any given moment in their childhood.

[Katy]

Interesting Cat.

 

I don't want that kind of relationship with my kids either, but it's not what I'd call respect.  Respect as I was taught it has nothing to do with relationship.  It's more a polite deference given to someone by virtue of their position, whether I personally think they deserve it or not.  For example, despite the fact that I voted for him at least once, I'm not particularly happy with President Obama's job performance.  I personally don't like him at all, actually.  But I respect him by virtue of being in the office, and I would be extremely polite if for some reason I met him again.

 

I expect my kids to respect other adults the same way I would, but I don't expect them to obey other adults.

[myfunnybunch]

Tell me how my biases are wrong.

 

So often, we notice what catches our attention. And we interpret it within our own framework of experience and ideas. Our biases aren't necessarily wrong or right, but they very much color what we perceive and how we perceive it.

 

The examples you gave, as others have pointed out, are examples of not parenting. They caught your attention because they are unusual and (from the sounds of it) ineffective. 

 

A "gentle parent" setting boundaries or with a respectful relationship with the child such that the child chooses to obey likely won't attract your notice as following a particular parenting style at all. You may even assume that because the child meets your standards of behavior (whatever those are) that the parent's interaction style is much like your own. It's human nature to notice what stands out as different.

 

What you're doing, asking questions and trying to become aware of how your experiences impact the way you perceive parenting, is a great way to become more aware of your own biases and how they impact your perceptions. :)

 

Cat

 

 

[Laura Corin]

I definitely require respect from my children, because, as a human being, I am worthy of respect.  I also have the last word on things.  However, the markers of that respect and obedience may well not be the same as the ones you hope for.

 

I parent very similarly to my own parents.  There is a family atmosphere of consideration for others.  We work together towards common goals: if the house needs tidying up for all our general comfort, then we all do it.  If we need to get out the door to go somewhere then we all need to work towards that.  And for that general comfort and happiness we have rules: take turns packing/unpacking the dishwasher; shower every day; work hard at school; obey the law (no drugs or underage sex, for example); limit your screen time; speak politely; obey general societal rules on manners (table manners, etc.); respect each other; allow your parents to have the last word.

 

I don't expect first time obedience of my children.  I don't think it is good training.  If there was a dangerous situation, my children would know from my tone of voice that now meant now - they don't have to spend all their time practising for that moment.  When asked to do something, they can do it, ask to do it later or suggest another way of doing it.  Sometimes I'll say, 'The dishwasher needs to be unpacked now so your brother can repack it.  You can go for your run afterwards.'  But if the timing doesn't matter, they can organise their day as they wish.

 

It works - I don't spend my day arguing, but I do listen to their views.

 

L

[LucyStoner]

 

Does everyone here who bristles at the concept of respect have a different definition? What does "real respect" mean to you?

Echoing others- I don't bristle at the concept of respect. I bristle at the idea that children are "beneath" adults and owe adults respect because they are adults. No, we all owe each other respect because we are human. Regretfully, some people lose that respect by being selfish, abusive, neglectful and/or controlling and it doesn't matter if they are someone's dad or an elderly grandmother, they don't get respect by virtue of their title in the family.

[LibraryLover]

That is literally cray cray.

[Chris in VA]

There are times when parents have modeled respect--being kind, listening politely, helping, living decently, having good balance between self and others--and their child is still disrespectful.

 

There is no formula to parenting that will, without fail, produce loving, kind, respectful (see above), decent kids.

There is choice involved.

 

I just think that is important to emphasize.

 

Sometimes a disrespectful human being is not a reflection of how she was parented.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

My parents were definitely toward the strict/authoritarian end of the spectrum, to the point that it damaged my relationship with them (though eventually it was repaired) and that it set my brothers on a dangerous path when they left home (luckily everything worked out okay in the end). I knew that I wanted to do something different.

 

When my daughter was a toddler, I got lots of complements on how well I had taught her to say please and thank you. The thing is, I never "taught" her that in the sense that those people meant it. I never "made" her say it, I never instructed her to say it. I simply said those things to her when it was appropriate to do so. And so she learned it naturally. And that's a big part of what gentle parenting means to me: showing your children the respect that you want them to show you and others.

 

It doesn't mean being permissive, or simply NOT being a parent (like in the examples you gave -- if that were my only knowledge of gentle parenting, I'd be pretty repulsed too! But that's not gentle parenting at all). It does mean being the example that you want your kids to follow. (Though believe me I know how miserably I have failed at this.) It means emphasizing cooperation rather than authority. It means emphasizing forgiveness rather than punishment.

 

For me personally, becoming a Christian (4 years ago) really strengthened my belief in gentle parenting, because God and my fellow Christians accepted me completely, terrible sinner though I was an am, without any punishment, but with love, forgiveness, and compassion. The story of the prodigal son is such a huge inspiration to me. The father in that story welcomes his son back with pure love and joy. God allows us to experience the consequences of our sins, but he does not punish us for them. So I try very hard to apply that same principle with my daughter.

 

My daughter is 14 now and I'm still getting complements on how polite, thoughtful, and sincere she is. But to be perfectly honest with you, I don't think that has much at all to do with my parenting. I think she's just good-natured!

 

Exactly.  To me gentle parenting is all about modeling the behavior you want your child to exhibit.  Beyond the pleasantries of saying thank you and please, I'll give another example -- People post all the time about problems with getting their kids to keep their rooms clean or pick up after themselves.  I have two teenaged boys (notorious for being messy) and those problems are foreign to me.  Our boys have always, consistently been modeled by DH and me that we all keep our rooms clean, dirty clothes go in the hampers, and that we clean up the kitchen if we make even a small mess.  Since it's always been a constant in their upbringing, it has never been an issue.  It's just something one does, like brushing your teeth twice a day.  Now maybe we're just stupidly lucky in that regard.  But modeling has worked very well here.

 

Wow.  Thanks everyone.  I for one am feeling much better about the concept of "gentle" parenting. I think we're all a lot more alike than I realized.  I agree that my examples were neglect, but they're also the only real-life interactions I've had that lectured me on why relaxed or attachment parenting was so much better than mine.  

 

Oh, and I have no idea if the parents of those girls I went to school with had any idea what they were up to, but they had no rules and no supervision, and that was by far the worst thing I heard about from them, it was just the earliest horrifying thing I heard from them.  Since without exception they all ended up either pregnant multiple times or dropped out before graduation, I'm sure the parents had an idea of what they were up to sooner or later.  Since I was also twelve at the time it didn't occur to me to tell someone they were being abused.  It just seemed like appallingly bad behavior at the time. 

 

I do require what we call respect from our kids, but I expect them to respect ALL people by virtue of being human, and I expect them to be polite to older people who aren't part of our family (assuming it's not a safety issue, obviously).

 

Does everyone here who bristles at the concept of respect have a different definition?  What does "real respect" mean to you?

 

I don't know anyone who bristles at the concept of respect.  I do bristle at the thought that respect can be required.  You can't make anybody feel respect anymore than you can make someone like/love you.  You just can't.  As a parent I guess you can force or coerce a kid to go through the motions of showing respect, but you can't make them feel it.

 

I think maybe part of the problem is that I define respect and politeness as totally different things while some people define them as almost the same thing, or at least flip sides of the same coin.  IMO when people say they "make" someone respect them what they're really doing is making the person be polite to them.  Again, to me respect is a feeling and you simply can't make someone else feel something.

 

Culturally, we hear over and over that we should respect our elders.  Personally, I think that's not accurate at all.  I don't think just accumulating years on this earth necessarily deserves respect.  I've known some totally good-for-nothing rotten elderly people.  Should I respect that rotten example of humanity just because he or she has managed to accumulate some years here on earth?  I don't think so.  I will be polite to them, and perhaps even more polite than I would be to a younger good-for-nothing person.  But I don't respect anyone simply due to age.  I respect someone (or not) after I get to know them and decide if they're worthy of my regard.  And that's what I model for my kids.

[Carrie12345]

I treat the lady at the post office with respect.

I treat my community codes officer with respect.

I treat my district superintendent with respect.

 

I can't STAND any of the three.  I follow the social constructs in order to make my life go more smoothly, but I have very little respect for any of them.  That is not what I want from a parent/child relationship.

[Soror]

Adding to the chorus that the examples above are not GD. All too often those on the authoritarian end look at permissive parenting as "proof" that being more gentle doesn't work, nope that is just lazy parenting. I have many(most) friends that are authoritarian(or at least much more so than me) and generally they assume I am as well because my children are (generally) well-behaved. I don't know how many times people have had conversations around me about how you need to spank etc. I don't generally "out" myself in public though or get into discussions. So I think it likely that you have seen positive examples of GD but just didn't know it because most don't go around advertising their particular flavor of parenting, if they even have one, because they are just busy parenting.

 

I would say that I think some parents are attracted to GD and it may not be the best for their temperament as it just leads them to be a permissive doormat. I have a dear friend struggling with this now actually. She is trying to be gentle but instead has taught her kids that she is pretty much their slave and they don't have to do anything. She gives them respect and kindness but it is not returned. She seems to have this idea that as long as they say the right words they are being respectful and it is instead reinforcing disrespect. I think that we all have certain weaknesses we are inclined towards, like some are drawn towards authoritarianism that tends towards abuse and end up in the news. My friend was already gentle so even though she was more authoritarian before because of her natural temperament she was able to implement it in a way that was much different and more gentle than usual. I don't know if GD is going to work well for her because of her natural tendencies although she is trying.

 

 AP worked well for me as I don't tend to be overally affectionate (neither was me mom) so AP gave me a bit of guidance in this area, which seems odd to say but I wanted to be more warm to my kids than my mom was but *how* to do it baffled me at times, especially when they were small. As a Type A I can be a bit rigid so GD/Positive Parent(my preferred label) has been good at tempering that in myself. I can however be really laid back about some things and trying to be honest I've seen myself be permissive about some things, some I decided were just not worthy of stress and some I realized that I needed to work on more. My husband on the other hands leans more authoritarian so now that we are figuring out how to work more effectively together we make a great team to keep each other balanced. So yes we all have biases and they certainly play into how we see things and interpret behaviors and thoughts.

 

- sorry that is a bit of a hodpe podge of thoughts, my brain is not all the way on just yet.

[MotherGoose]

I have seen gentle parents try to reason with an exhausted three year old about why it's bedtime or time to leave, when what they need to do is pick up child and take them away screaming. It's one thing to be respectful of a reasonable child, ie not exhausted toddler or preschooler, but at some point you need to be in charge.

[Guest]

So some people here tend to think that everyone who demands respect or obedience from their kids (like me) are controlling abusers of authority. My own personal bias is that people who don't give their kids any structure or consequences are too weak to stand up to their own kids and are turning them into whiny entitled narcissists who are completely unprepared for the real world. Now obviously this isn't true. Obviously at least some of you have given VERY GOOD advice that I've used with my own kids. So I want to know... How did you become "gentle" parents, what does that mean to you, and how do your kids get discipline and structure if you don't require respect from them?

Katy, the descriptions you are giving are not "gentle parenting." They are permissive parenting. I fully agree that there are parents who *think* they are gentle parents and/or attachment parents, who are permissive parents. I fully agree that my experiences with permissive parents have been universally bad.

 

I do not tend towards permissiveness AT ALL. I am an OCD fan of order! Years ago, I was a regular on "THE" internet community for gentle parents, but I left because there were too many wienies there. The one person I felt was in-step with my overall philosophy was Joanne, who is here, too.

 

I do not demand respect from my kids, but I get it anyway. I seek to respect them also, and the normal social outcome is we (human beings) are respectful towards those who are respectful towards us. Golden Rule and all. I pass down rules when I feel my needs are not being met; my kids are welcome to tell me if I am being unreasonable. Perfect example - my kids have been making Paninis for lunch. I said to them yesterday, "Here is the rule: you kids are welcome to make Paninis for lunch all summer long, but when you finish, you must clean up 100%. I am not going to have a smeary, greasy stove and counter every day and I'm not cleaning up from lunch every night before I make dinner." So - they cleaned up from lunch. I will continue to require it all summer, should they "forget."

[Laura Corin]

I have seen gentle parents try to reason with an exhausted three year old about why it's bedtime or time to leave, when what they need to do is pick up child and take them away screaming. It's one thing to be respectful of a reasonable child, ie not exhausted toddler or preschooler, but at some point you need to be in charge.

 

Yes and no.  I absolutely agree that you can't reason with a screaming toddler.  You can, however, take the child into your arms, rock them until they are quiet, hold them until their breathing calms, and then sympathise with their exhaustion and talk to them about what needs to happen next.

 

There have been times, however, when I really had to move fast (at an airport trying to catch a plane, for example) so I definitely have done the pick-up-and-go.

 

L

[Soror]

I don't try to reason with tired kids, ever, there is no point. Yet again, that is someone not aware of basic facts about kids. My 4yo is that way when she is tired. Prime example we need to leave, she doesn't want to because she is tired. I give everyone a heads ups that we will be leaving in 5 minutes. 5 minutes come, she doesn't want to come, she is tired and grumpy. I ask if she can walk to the car or if she would like me to carry her. Sometimes she will protest or cry or whine. I just repeat the choices and add empathy to the fact she doesn't want to leave. If she refuses to answer then I will say I guess I need to carry you and I do so, not in a rough way mind you and put her in the seat. She may or may not like this. I generally try not to force the kids to do anything and work hard to avoid those type of situations but sometimes there we are and there is nothing I can do to fix the fact that she is tired, other than get her home or relaxed in the car to go to sleep. 

 

eta- I see Laura gave a much better description. Carrying a tired child, even when they protest at first can be done in a loving way, usually she is happy to have an opportunity to relax as she doesn't quite understand why she is so grumpy either, she just knows that she is. 

[Guest submarines]

Interesting Cat.

 

I don't want that kind of relationship with my kids either, but it's not what I'd call respect.  Respect as I was taught it has nothing to do with relationship.  It's more a polite deference given to someone by virtue of their position, whether I personally think they deserve it or not.  For example, despite the fact that I voted for him at least once, I'm not particularly happy with President Obama's job performance.  I personally don't like him at all, actually.  But I respect him by virtue of being in the office, and I would be extremely polite if for some reason I met him again.

 

I expect my kids to respect other adults the same way I would, but I don't expect them to obey other adults.

 

Blindly respecting someone by virtue of their position is a dangerous thing and a slippery slope. Even if you seem to mean "politeness" rather than respect.

 

I applaud those who stood up against oppression and didn't "respect" Hitler, Stalin and the like.

 

Respecting someone just because of their position? Never. Though I do agree that in many social situations being polite is the right thing, regardless one's personal feelings.

 

 

[bolt.]

I became a "gentle" parent, using primarily positive discipline techniques at first through trying to decide if I would spank or not: whether it was within my ethics, my values and my religion -- or whether it was a matter of convenience. I concluded this: IF it is *possible* to raise children well, without needing to use physical pain to maintain control THEN I was ethically bound to give it a good solid try. That meant my best efforts, and my best efforts included research, social support, and trial-and-error.

 

The real shift occurred when I realized that when kids aren't handing themselves well, the cause is almost universally that they are immature and need help from me -- not that they are making a choice and need me to oppose them. The view of the relationship shifted in my heart from "adversaries" to "teamwork" (and ta-da, 8x more co-operation out of them, basically instantly, but still plenty of work to do.)

 

Where I spend time, I am almost always the strictest parent around. I save my words for when I mean them, and our family dynamic includes the fact that my instructions get followed or activities end... In a friendly way "because things aren't going well" without anger or blame... But it does encourage them to be invested in good behaviour, as they are able.

 

Most real parents around me are shocked at the kinds of "discipline" I find completely unnessisarily in raising my kids who are universally considered very well behaved.

[mom2myboys]

I have seen gentle parents try to reason with an exhausted three year old about why it's bedtime or time to leave, when what they need to do is pick up child and take them away screaming. It's one thing to be respectful of a reasonable child, ie not exhausted toddler or preschooler, but at some point you need to be in charge.

 

I think it is possible to take the necessary action and still be empathetic to the child's feelings. I strive for that balance, even though at times it is difficult. I think you can step up and be the adult while giving respect to the child. 

 

I agree that there are times when action is needed and limits need to be placed even if the child does not agree. I think the manner in how it is handled is important. 

[Soror]

 I concluded this: IF it is *possible* to raise children well, without needing to use physical pain to maintain control THEN I was ethically bound to give it a good solid try. That meant my best efforts, and my best efforts included research, social support, and trial-and-error.

 

. The view of the relationship shifted in my heart from "adversaries" to "teamwork" (and ta-da, 8x more co-operation out of them, basically instantly, but still plenty of work to do.)

 

Most real parents around me are shocked at the kinds of "discipline" I find completely unnecessary in raising my kids who are universally considered very well behaved.

I cannot seeing using physical punishment unless it was needed and I've not found it to be needed. I have found it hard at times to explain GD/Positive parenting because people wonder how you make your kids do something well there is so much to be said for the dynamic, your example and expectations that just cannot be explained in an easy way so it sounds so nebulous and people drop all the punishments and expectations and don't add in the rest and it just doesn't work very well.

[Farrar]

The issue of "respect" is interesting.  Both sides tend to think that respect is a paramount concept.  For traditionalists, what I see is that respect equals obedience and politeness to elders.  There's a hierarchy in life, kids have to "respect" that and learn to find their place in it.  For gentle discipline types, I think respect is something all people have, regardless of age, on some basic level because there's not an assumption of that hierarchy for all people just based on age.  But the sort of "respect" that involves obedience and weight to a person's directions and words is something that is earned.  Respect for a child includes understanding that they're children who need patience and time to learn how to do things.

 

I think in practice, people in the middle aren't that different.  When my kids don't say thank you to someone, I remind them.  When my kids hurt someone or break something then there's a consequence for that.  Sometimes it looks very much the same...  I think it's when we hit up against the tricky situations when things aren't working just right that we revert to our basic assumptions.

[Guest]

I think lack of consistency can be a very upsetting thing for a kid. I think most people would agree with that.

 

Being more gentle in one's parenting style and not believing in being punitive doesn't mean someone sets no boundaries whatsoever and acts like a doormat. It's really not like that. At least not for me.

 

My experiences with the homeschoolers I've met have been opposite to yours Katy. I have found that a lot were into the strict definition of attachment parenting, or radical unschooling, etc. Neither of those are styles that suit me. At least not in the strictest sense. As an example, after a homeschool group gathering when we were cleaning up the rented space, some parents didn't expect their children to help clean up. I did and asked my kids to help clean up. And they did. I cleaned along side them. I didn't have to threaten. I asked once. And that is how my kids are pretty much with most things. I just ask them like I'd ask any other human being. When my kids ask me for help, I help them. I think we just have this sense of cooperation. Not to say we are all perfect here. We aren't. Everyone has their moments. But without using punishment my kids listen to me.

 

I see myself as somewhat of a tour guide. I talk to my kids a lot. I encourage them to think about what they say and do and how that makes other people feel. You know, the whole Golden Rule thing.

 

One thing I don't mind is when my kids ask me why. They can ask me any question they want. I don't mind that. Sometimes I've made a rule and they ask me about it and I think about it and I realize there is no real point to the rule. So I agree to change it. That sort of thing. It's not like I've been a parent before and know what I'm doing. That's the thing with parenting you learn as you go along. And I only have 2 kids so this is it. This isn't like well by the time I get to the 5th I'll have a better grasp of this. I won't.

 

I bristle at the word obedience. It feels like we are talking about training service dogs or sled dogs.

I agree with you completely. Recently, my dd17 was out with her boyfriend and we were texting back and forth, because of a place they were going to go. I texted something like, "plan your time well, because I want you home by nine." She texted back, "Okay, but lol, nine is not late at my age, you know." I thought, hmmm. That is true. So the next time, I said Ten. Really, there's nothing shocking about a 17-year-old getting home by 10:00. I'm happy we have this kind of relationship. She was agreeable about getting home by Nine, if I'm going to be all paranoid Mom about it, but she is also totally comfortable with telling me my limits are tighter than average. I was in a very different position with my own parents at that age and it was a very unhealthy dynamic.

[MBM]

How did you become "gentle" parents, what does that mean to you, and how do your kids get discipline and structure if you don't require respect from them?

 

When it came to parenting, my husband and I have tried to be authoritative parents as defined by Diana Baumrind. By that, I mean we try to wisely and lovingly guide our children while allowing them to voice their opinions and feelings about our decisions. They are also allowed to mess up -- which will happen -- and when it does, we try to guide them appropriately. I don't want the message to be lost in the delivery. Ultimately, the goal is get the child to cooperate while being allowed what is necessary to individuate. This is an easier process for some than others.

 

We also spend a lot of time with our kids doing fun activities, asking about their day, and making our house open to their friends so that the conversations can keep flowing and the connections keep growing.

 

Anyway, these are the four parenting styles and a link that explains them:

 

Authoritarian

Authoritative

Permissive

Uninvolved

 

http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm

 

Btw, children who grow up with authoritative parents are the least likely to lie. If you want to learn more, you can read about that in Nurture Shock by Po Bronson.

 

People have all kinds of opinions but I would say that having a few consistent rules that can be bent in the right circumstances while maintaining warmth with your children generally will have the best effect.

[Greta]

I have seen gentle parents try to reason with an exhausted three year old about why it's bedtime or time to leave, when what they need to do is pick up child and take them away screaming. It's one thing to be respectful of a reasonable child, ie not exhausted toddler or preschooler, but at some point you need to be in charge.

But what you may have seen and not recognized as gentle parenting is a parent who *does* pick up and carry away the child, speaking soothingly, cuddling her, patting her back, singing a favorite lullaby, or whatever they know calms that child down. That's what I would have done (and did do) in similar instances. What my mom would have done is picked me up, carried me away, and spanked me. I do not believe that an exhausted child deserves to be punished for acting like an exhausted child. But I do know some authoritarian parents who would spank and/or let the child "cry it out". I don't know how representative that is of authoritarian parenting. I'm guessing/hoping it's not typical.

 

I think that the extremes at both ends of the spectrum are basically parenting in a very lazy way. The extreme authoritarian types cannot be bothered to provide for their child's needs, and the extreme permissive types cannot be bothered to stand up for their own needs. But in the middle, whether we consider ourselves to be authority-based or gentle or whatever label we apply, is the vast majority of us, who are creating family dynamics wherein everyone's needs are being considered, and met to the best of our abilities.