Bill Nye/Homeschooling argument

[albeto.]

That particular poster is a broken record about religion and jumps on every opportunity to go off on a rant, even when it is tangential to the thread...

 

That a video illustrating a common technique in homeschooling science education would be considered tangential to a thread about a scientist and his impression of homeschooling is a most illustrative and fascinating commentary. Thank you for this.  

[Mrs Mungo]

I am not sure that I would want to try and convince him that homeschooling is "better" than public school.  In some cases, public school is much better than what children are receiving in their homes.

 

However, I think that a statement such as the one he just made about homeschooling is based largely on ignorance of how most (not all) homeschoolers handle their education and socialization.  Unfortunately, he is perpetuating that ignorance by spreading it to the 2.2 million "likes" he has on his Facebook.  If you are a homeschooler, it actually may be affecting you when a prominent and well-regarded "celebrity" makes a statement such as this.  Maybe not personally, but it is affecting the perception of homeschooling.

Don't you think the onus is on us to combat false perceptions?

 

There are many, many people out there who would like to see homeschooling outlawed and eliminated. We are enjoying a freedom that could easily be taken from us.

Easily? No, I disagree. And I disagree that people like Bill Nye want to see homeschooling *eliminated*, even if they don't think it's the best choice. There's no evidence for that.

 

It would just be nice if a gentleman such as this could be spreading the fact that quite a few homeschoolers out there actually do collaborate with others and know how to work on teams.

Sure, it would be nice, but he doesn't have any knowledge about it. Again, I think this falls to the homeschooling community to combat.

[LucyStoner]

OK, I concede you have a point.  (I am thoroughly enjoying the debate about this, by the way. I've understand your point and those made by others- Sadie, Tara, momma2three, etc. for quite a while now, but I still believe that credit should be given where parents did have a big hand in their children's educational success even though it was as far back as the 1600's.)

 

OK, so if someone were to try and enlighten Bill Nye on the successes of homeschooling in the science arena, what would you consider the  "rules" for listing those successes should be?

 

Only people who have been homeschooled since 1635 when the first public school in America was founded?  (That would include quite a few of our Presidents, wouldn't it?) Or by the year 1870 when all of the states had free elementary schools?

Or only people who have homeschooled since the "modern" movement of homeschooling began in the 1970's?

No prodigies are allowed I assume?

No one whose parents have hired specialized tutors?  (So I guess that would leave me out since we have used Lukeion and Pennsylvania Homeschoolers).

 

What does everyone think the parameters should be to show science successes within the homeschool community?

 

 

You know, I guess I honestly haven't thought about it because I don't care to use famous people to justify my decision to home school my sons.  Maybe I am conceited (uh, probably, er yeah definitely, I am conceited about certain things, :lol: ) but I don't feel a need to point to a famous person to prove homeschooling works.  I have nothing to prove.  People IRL know my older son, who is flat out amazing academically, and people IRL will usually quickly see that homeschooling is the best of the limited options we have.  The main reason I homeschool my son is because he is an outlier in two directions- extremely gifted academically and extremely limited social skills wise due to ASD.  He gets his needs both accelerated and remedial (social skills practice) met better at home on both fronts than he would at school full-time.  We use a mix of supplements to homebased stuff- community art classes, informal co-teaching with other families his age, his therapy, classes for gifted kids in math, a homeschool writing group that would not be available or easy to do if he were in school all darn day.  As a parent though, I'm not getting any awards and I don't feel a need to "get credit" either.  We do what we have to do for our kids because that's what parenting is all about. 

 

I personally think that homeschooling as a modern phenomena is something that looks very different than homebased learning even 100 years ago and I don't really need to say "Abraham Lincoln was homeschooled!" Incidentally, Abraham Lincoln was also leased out as labor and didn't get to keep his wages so it's not like I feel compelled to liken myself to the likes of his father, LOL.  We live in a modern world.  Why does it matter who was "homeschooled" and what that meant a heck of a long time ago?  Homebased learning by choice and necessity is hardly unproven.  Quite the opposite. 

 

 

[KarenC]

He's a scientist, not a homeschool advocate. I didn't know any of this either and I've been educating at home the better part of ten years, lol.

 

Besides, as much as you guys might not like it, the stereotype of homeschooling is not favorable on the outside. We see lots of Jesus Camp examples of "science" in the homeschool community. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the majority of home education with which he is familiar.

 

Do you know the name of the documentary?

[LucyStoner]

Do you know the name of the documentary?

 

Jesus Camp.  It is on Hulu or Amazon and probably it is on Netflix too.  I am sure it's on YouTube as well. 

[KarenC]

Jesus Camp.  It is on Hulu or Amazon and probably it is on Netflix too.  I am sure it's on YouTube as well. 

Thanks.  I read the reviews on Amazon and it is scary.   I have to hope this type of homeschooler is a small minority.

[LucyStoner]

I don't think we need to cherry pick some amazing success story to show that homeschooling is not what he apparently thinks it is.  The fact is that the vast majority of homeschoolers, just like the vast majority of public schoolers, do not go on to be world-famous scientists.  And that's fine: if my kids go on to do that I sure think it would be amazing, but it's not my goal.

 

Yeah, it's like pointing to wildly successful college dropouts (like Bill Gates, Ted Turner and Steve Jobs) to say that dropping out of college is a path to success.  Uh, yeah maybe but most of us aren't Steve Jobs. 

[Haiku]

We are enjoying a freedom that could easily be taken from us.

I have seen no evidence that the right to homeschool is in danger of easily be taken from us. In fact, what I see is that any time any legislation tries to clamp down on homeschooling, the homeschool community comes together to handily defeat the proposed legislation.

[MtnTeaching]

Easily? No, I disagree. And I disagree that people like Bill Nye want to see homeschooling *eliminated*, even if they don't think it's the best choice. There's no evidence for that.

 

 

 

This is where you and I strongly disagree.  I do believe that the right to homeschool is a VERY tenuous and precarious right.  

 

I never said that people like Bill Nye would want to see homeschooling eliminated, but I do very much believe that homeschooling is a right that could easily be "eliminated" or severely curtailed. 

[momma2three]

YES!! This is such a huge pet peeve of mine!! George Washington Carver? really? Please. ALEXANDER?!!!!!!! I have seen him on those lists, too. Totally totally totally off base, and such a huge exageration. We can stand on our own laurels, fellow homeschoolers. I can, anyway ;-)

 

The worst, the absolute worst, is when Frederick Douglas shows up on lists of "famous homeschooled people."  OMG.  I've seen it a few times.  I once saw him, on another homeschooling message board, on a list of famous UNSCHOOLERS.  All I can do is just sputter.  Talk about missing the point! 

[momma2three]

This is where you and I strongly disagree.  I do believe that the right to homeschool is a VERY tenuous and precarious right.  

 

I never said that people like Bill Nye would want to see homeschooling eliminated, but I do very much believe that homeschooling is a right that could easily be "eliminated" or severely curtailed. 

 

Can I ask how, and by whom?  Are there any credible organizations actually looking to do that?  The only one I know of is the Coalition for Responsible Homeschooling, and I don't think that anyone is actually paying them much attention.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is where you and I strongly disagree.  I do believe that the right to homeschool is a VERY tenuous and precarious right.  

 

I never said that people like Bill Nye would want to see homeschooling eliminated, but I do very much believe that homeschooling is a right that could easily be "eliminated" or severely curtailed.

By whom? What evidence do you see for that in terms of proposed legislation, etc? I have lived in several states and another country. Homeschooling is a pretty large force in all of those states. I see it receiving more and more support from the communities in which I have lived over the years. There were no real co-ops or support groups when I started homeschooling my eldest all of those years ago. She's now a senior. The options are *far* greater for us now. I see this as evidence that homeschooling (in some form or another) will likely continue to expand. In both my home state and my dh's home state (we will likely retire to one of the two) homeschooling is recognized as a (state) constitutional right.

[Word Nerd]

That a video illustrating a common technique in homeschooling science education would be considered tangential to a thread about a scientist and his impression of homeschooling is a most illustrative and fascinating commentary. Thank you for this.  

 

Given that the question was specifically about secular science curriculum and his answer was focused entirely on socialization, I think it's a stretch to call the Jesus Camp clip relevant.

[HRAAB]

Speaking only for where I live, my homeschooling freedoms have not been curtailed in anyway in the last 18 years.  Yes, I think it is good to be vigilant and informed, but I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that my freedom to homeschool is threatened.

[Word Nerd]

Ulgh that makes me feel gross about people. All those unschooled slaves.

 

As to the OP-- Maybe I am way out of the loop (I am a homeschooler, after all), but why would Bill Nye be someone you'd ask to write homeschool curricula? He promotes science in general, right? But is there ANY link at all between him and homeschooling? Or has he written other curricula, for public school? He's just a dude on teevee in my mind. It's rather like asking the Channel One kids to make journalism curricula for homeschoolers.

 

 

That was my first question when I read the OP. 

[Word Nerd]

I have seen no evidence, that the right to homeschool is in danger of easily be taken from us. In fact, what I see is that any time any legislation tries to clamp down on homeschooling, the homeschool community comes together to handily defeat the proposed legislation.

 

FWIW, some of us who are not currently homeschooling are more than willing to join the battle in such cases. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Ulgh that makes me feel gross about people. All those unschooled slaves.

 

As to the OP-- Maybe I am way out of the loop (I am a homeschooler, after all), but why would Bill Nye be someone you'd ask to write homeschool curricula? He promotes science in general, right? But is there ANY link at all between him and homeschooling? Or has he written other curricula, for public school? He's just a dude on teevee in my mind. It's rather like asking the Channel One kids to make journalism curricula for homeschoolers.

I agree. He has no links to homeschool or writing curricula.

[Cricket]

YES!! This is such a huge pet peeve of mine!! George Washington Carver? really? Please. ALEXANDER?!!!!!!! I have seen him on those lists, too. Totally totally totally off base, and such a huge exageration. We can stand on our own laurels, fellow homeschoolers. I can, anyway ;-)

 

And sometimes homeschooling isn't about producing the next Newton or Einstein.  It's about giving an solid education to an average student who would be lost in the public school system, graduating without knowing much of anything.

[Saddlemomma]

I am so totally NOT surprised by his reply.  Never been a fan.

[Halftime Hope]

It is not about Christianity. I agree though, it is about ignorance. People feel public school creates a social environment that cannot be nurtured otherwise. Kids need to be in school. Whether you're a hippie, fundamentalist, or secular atheist - if your kids aren't in school the overall consensus from non-homeschoolers is the lack of socialization. Bill Nye answered in a very stereotypical manner. Not shocked.

 

Some public school teachers and admins started up a new charter school about 30 minutes from me, to counter the lovely socialization occurring in the "chaotic" (their words) schools in the three suburbs clustered around their location, and teach from within a project-oriented, teamwork-based, virtue-heavy framework.  It has been quite a journey for them in this, their first year, as they are deprogramming and teaching the students what respect, teamwork, and cooperation looks like. The higher the grade level, the harder the "socialization" deprogramming has been.

 

Maybe Bill should go back to school.

 

[NicAnn]

I very much agree that his quote is based on ignorance. Many people have an idealized view of public school.

Bill Nye is not someone I care much about at this point. I grew up with The Science Guy. It was the best part of elementary school. As an adult, however, I realize he is too attention seeking and not very genuine. The whole debate premise was ridiculous. I'm not surprised he has these opinions on homeschooling.

[awisha.]

nm 

 

Edited February 11, 2014 by Moderator
That goes for you too.

[Aelwydd]

Try watching the entire documentary.

What's the title? Wonder if it's on Netflix.

[Aelwydd]

I suspect (hope) his ignorance about home education will be addressed soon. Perhaps this is his introduction to the idea that home educators are not all religious, and we do have a very real and serious need to find legitimate scientific educational sources for our children who are not educated in conventional ways. It is a real problem. It's too bad he didn

't have a solution. I hope this makes a difference. If notable education advocates can put a spotlight on some scientific curricula for home education, how cool would that be?

I understand his bias against home schooling; I used to hold the same view he expressed. However, even the most cursory search of the modern home school movement reveals that it was a liberal, unschooling proponent, John Holt*, who ignited the debate on the inefficacy of institutional education.

 

Conservative Christian leaders seized on his idea and used them to forward their social engineering program in the 80's, but it was mainly counter -cultural "hippies," who comprised of the majority of the home schooling community in the 70's.

 

As a scientist, Nye should know better than to fall into the cis-tran, white-black, all-or-nothing mindset. That mentality of us-versus-them is a hallmark of a fundamentalist. No population is comprised soley of homogeneity. When the question clearly identified the homeschooler as secular, it shows a remarkable prejudice on Nye's part that he persists in ignoring an entire subset, and grouping them together with fundamentalist isolationists.

 

Humans are incredibly complex animals; I find his total failure to recognize the differentiation among a population of such size and diversity to be stunning. Hell, even here in Texas, there are a considerable number of secular home school groups. It's not difficult to find this information; he just needs to be willing to examine the evidence.

 

I wasn't a fan before, but my opinion of Nye is not favorable.

 

*edited from "Galt" due to high unexplained mental fog

[Mrs Mungo]

However, even the most cursory search of the modern home school movement reveals that it was a liberal, unschooling proponent, John Galt, who ignited the debate on the inefficacy of institutional education.

 

John Holt, you mean? John Galt is Ayn Rand's literary hero.

[Aelwydd]

John Holt, you mean? John Galt is Ayn Rand's literary hero.

Lol, yes. Muscle relaxers and brain things. Do not mix. Thanks MM.

[Catwoman]

Why does anyone care what Bill Nye thinks about homeschooling?

 

I don't care what he thinks about any topic.

[lewelma]

I was thinking of my bil - PhD in Environmental Science.  Nothing has yet convinced him that homeschooling can do the job as well as a good school.

 

I just had to respond to this.

 

I will not argue about the average homeschool, but *I* definitely do as good a job as a *good* school.  (ok, that sounds like a major brag, but there it is).  No, my kids don't have the extensive lab equipment experience.  No, they don't do weekly labs with write ups.  No, they don't join a famous researcher and travel to Antarctica.  But they do some amazing research that is their own and not just an extension of a scientist's work.  Their projects last from between 80 to 130 hours, and train them in the scientific method, problem solving, persistence, data analysis, and scientific writing.  These projects are hard.  Really really hard.   These are my older's projects since 3rd grade:

 

Chemistry: What mixture of ingredients makes the most pliable and bounceable silly putty?

 

Physics: How does the angle of attack over various wind speeds affect the flight time of a homemade kite?

 

Biology: Which type of water supports the most diversity of micro-organisms, ocean, ditch, or river?

 

Oceanography: How does the wind direction/speed and the orientation of the bay affect longshore transport of sand?

 

Engineering: Can the traffic along the waterfront be better coordinated, and if so how much pollution would it save annually?

------

 

Sure, we don't have any fancy equipment, but science is also about ingenuity.  And we have plenty of that!  And my older has competed with all the private schools in the region, and won, twice. 

 

If your bil is interested in seeing how you can use the main advantage of homeschooling (excellent teacher ratio) to teach science well, then have him read my scientific investigation thread and the one that is linked inside it: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/463952-scientific-investigations-with-my-12-and-9-year-old/

 

Ruth in NZ

[kroe1]

My kiddo sits all alone in our kitchen science lab. She had a daily lab from elementary through middle school. The lab is filled with digital microscopes and stereoscopes that allow her to show her images on her PowerPoint presentations. She has digital scales, chemicals from Germany, a van de Graff generator, an epilator, a Brownian motion generator, models of bugs, models of body parts, ring stands which fit on the gas stove,more glassware than will fit in 2 cabinets, and physics equipment beyond comparison to the local college.

 

Our local public school treats science as a "special" meaning a child can choose to take it or not except in grades when the FCAT includes science. Since other specials include dance, acting, and art, science is rarely chosen. Not until high school is science regularly taught and then the performing arts kiddos get a weak, watered down version. At best, they will get one experiment per semester and maybe one demonstration per chapter if the teacher has extra time. Working together means 3 kiddos at one table with one doing all the work while the other two sleep. Science fairs still exist for those who want to participate.

 

Let's see.......my kitchen working alone or public school. Bill Nye, you are clueless.

[awisha.]

Jesus Camp.  It is on Hulu or Amazon and probably it is on Netflix too.  I am sure it's on YouTube as well. 

 

 

What's the title? Wonder if it's on Netflix.

 

 

If you google Jesus Camp full, a link comes up for vimeo which is the full doco with foreign subtitles. Well, it showed up for me in Upside Down Land :)

[CaffeineDiary]

I think albeto's comment is relevant and spot on. After all, didn't Nye just debate Ken Ham? What kind of stereotype do you think he has in mind? The very one shown in the video clip albeto linked.

 

Also, the irony is thick in the air in that we're having this "But but but not everyone who homeschools is an evangelical Christian" discussion on a forum where if you threw a dart at a random thread in the K-8 section you'll find a thread discussing "science" books by people promoting the unscientific view that the Earth is about 6,000 years old. 

 

(Editing and clarifying: I say this not because I believe everyone who home schools is evangelical - that's obviously not true - but because if you ask someone to say what they think about homeschooling, of course the common perception of it matters.)

[WishboneDawn]

Ulgh that makes me feel gross about people. All those unschooled slaves.

 

As to the OP-- Maybe I am way out of the loop (I am a homeschooler, after all), but why would Bill Nye be someone you'd ask to write homeschool curricula? He promotes science in general, right? But is there ANY link at all between him and homeschooling? Or has he written other curricula, for public school? He's just a dude on teevee in my mind. It's rather like asking the Channel One kids to make journalism curricula for homeschoolers.

 

I think a person would ask because she wants Bill Nye and his followers to know there are sciencey homeschool like her out there. She wants a nice flowery response acknowledging her existence from a guy she likes. I don't think it was an honest request for him write a science curriculum.

 

Then, when it turned out Bill Nye gave her a bit of a dismissive response that showed he didn't know everything about all there is to know and want interested in doing her work for her she got huffy.

 

But this was one question in a thread with thousands of comments. Thousands. And it was a stupid one. He's a TV personality with no ties to homeschooling. And someone is asking him to write a homeschooling curriculum? She can do her homework and find our write one herself. So I don't have any problem with his dismissive.

 

His ignorance? Oh well. We are a fringe group in the greater population and generally most people, especially those with lives as full as Bill Nye's, have other concerns. We are not so important that everyone has to educate themselves on homeschooling. And Mr. Nye's ignorance on this one matter is not going to make me reassess my view of him.

 

Frankly, I'm a little tired of the instant outrage I sometimes see in homeschooling circles and that the poster on the FB thread expressed. It's reflexive and reactionary and often, unthinking. We're annoyed about the stereotypes people have of us but then we turn around and perpetuate them by making a couple of sentences in a FB thread by a guy who is in no way important to the movement of homeschooling into major drama.

[stripe]

This is the common impression of homeschoolers to the outside, and exactly what Bill Nye is publicly speaking out against. It's reasonable to assume that his familiarity with homeschooling is just like this - kids who are isolated from the rest of society for the purpose of maintaining a particular belief.

But why would someone who likes that sort of thing ask Bill Nye to write a curriculum she could use? That's what makes no sense on his part.

 

That clip was ridiculous. I went to a public school in a major city, and my biology teacher barely addressed evolution and certainly would never have said those who believe in X are stupid. I think he was well aware that the school wasn't going to promote any one thing. But I think that shows the political lens through which that family is putting everything, and the persecution complex.

 

I think a person would ask because she wants Bill Nye and his followers to know there are sciencey homeschool like her out there. She wants a nice flowery response acknowledging her existence from a guy she likes. I don't think it was an honest request for him write a science curriculum.

Yeah, maybe you're right. I didn't think that it could all just be flattery. In which case, he certainly blew it! ;)

[momma2three]

I think I agree with Wishbone Dawn's assessment of the entire thing.  Bill Nye is, first and foremost, an entertainer.  His career is to entertain his audience.  His audience has traditionally been elementary and middle school kids.  I think that the recent debate was pretty much a publicity stunt for his original audience, now in their 20s and early 30s, most of whom probably aren't even aware that the evolution v. creationism "debate" is a real thing.

 

It's not his responsibility to really care about homeschoolers.  They may be part of his audience, but they aren't his target audience.  And he's right that science is all about collaboration.  He's wrong to think that homeschoolers all sit in their basement all day never interacting with the outside world, but LOTS of people think that about homeschooling.  Unfortunately, many homeschoolers do actually meet that stereotype: even people who hang around here.  I've seen plenty of threads here where people practically brag about how little contact their kids have with the outside world, except maybe going to church on Sunday.  I don't think that's a great way for kids to grow up, personally, and neither does Nye.

 

Of course, not all homeschoolers are like that.  Hopefully, he'll be educated about that.  But the way to educate people is not to fly off the handle.  Especially when what they're wrong about is a pretty common view.

[mytwomonkeys]

While he is not important to the homeschooling movement, he is a part of some individual homeschools. We, for one, have watched him with pleasure and my kids have learned some stuff from him. (No, not instead of a science curriculum, thanks, but as educational entertainment.) It's disappointing when someone you think of as informative and fun dismisses your choices, in which you have included him, without even thinking about it.

I agree with you both. :)

 

I enjoy his videos for my son. Find his statement unfortunate. Overall, not giving a flip what he thinks.

[Leav97]

What does everyone think the parameters should be to show science successes within the homeschool community?

 

This should probably be a different thread but, I think you would need to start with the ability to show success in the homeschool community in general.  I have yet to read any statistics on homeschooling results that have credibility.  The population is always self selected for the study.  

 

If you can talk ALL homeschoolers in an area into taking the same test as the public and private schooled kids, then we could start to look at the real results of homeschooling.

[mytwomonkeys]

He's wrong to think that homeschoolers all sit in their basement all day never interacting with the outside world, but LOTS of people think that about homeschooling. Unfortunately, many homeschoolers do actually meet that stereotype: even people who hang around here. I've seen plenty of threads here where people practically brag about how little contact their kids have with the outside world, except maybe going to church on Sunday. I don't think that's a great way for kids to grow up, personally, and neither does Nye.

 

 

And to be fair though, not all people that isolate are weird Christians. I've read more posts from anxiety ridden moms that don't desire socialization for themselves and struggle with leaving their comfort zone to meet their child's craving for friendships. So the isolated homeschooler often has to do with the mom's health (whether physical or mental) -- which I see much more of.

[momma2three]

This should probably be a different thread but, I think you would need to start with the ability to show success in the homeschool community in general.  I have yet to read any statistics on homeschooling results that have credibility.  The population is always self selected for the study.  

 

If you can talk ALL homeschoolers in an area into taking the same test as the public and private schooled kids, then we could start to look at the real results of homeschooling.

 

I think that homeschoolers are too disparate a group to do an overall study like that.  The end goals of individual homeschooling families are too different.  I think you can do surveys like that for public schools, and for most private schools, because the "bare minimum" end goal is universal: prepare students with the skills they need to continue their education at the next level, or to hold down a basic job right away, and to be active participants in the larger society.  The way that all public and most private schools do this is pretty much the same, too: a benchmark based curriculum that covers what our society considers the basic subjects, teach kids a little more each year for 12-13 years, until it's deemed that they know all they need to know.  And different schools go about this different ways, and some are certainly more successful than others, but every public school, and most private schools, work this way.

 

Some homeschoolers have much higher standards, and some have much lower standards.  Some only want their daughters to have enough education to manage the household and their sons to go into the family business.  Some want their children to be in college by the time they're 12.  Some do every subject every day for years, others don't make their children to learn any subject.

 

I do think it would be interesting to have more surveys that divide up homeschoolers into self-defined groups, and compare results within the group.

[momma2three]

And to be fair though, not all people that isolate are weird Christians. I've read more posts from anxiety ridden moms that don't desire socialization for themselves and struggle with leaving their comfort zone to meet their child's craving for friendships. So the isolated homeschooler often has to do with the mom's health (whether physical or mental) -- which I see much more of.

 

Yes, I agree.  I know I mentioned church, but I actually think that the "weird Christians" tend to be pretty social... church, and whatever scouting and youth groups their churches do and all that stuff.  I see a lot of anxiety-tinged posts about miserable children and parents who can't/won't meet their child's social needs, and they often make me feel like the child would be much better off in school :(

 

I know lots of homeschoolers have myths at heart about "isolated pioneers," but the truth is that very, very few humans live in isolation, even in US history.  The Ingalls family, the gold standard for such mythologizing, in real life always had plenty of neighbors within a few mile radius, even when they were in Kansas.

[OneStepAtATime]

And to be fair though, not all people that isolate are weird Christians. I've read more posts from anxiety ridden moms that don't desire socialization for themselves and struggle with leaving their comfort zone to meet their child's craving for friendships. So the isolated homeschooler often has to do with the mom's health (whether physical or mental) -- which I see much more of.

Actually, yes, I have noticed that several who are uncomfortable getting out and meeting others then isolate their kids because they are not, themselves, comfortable being outside their own homes, but this does not appear to be religiously based.  And with one woman I know in particular, this is one reason why she withdrew her child from school.  

 

But most introverts I know still find ways to get the kids out with other kids upon occasion and interact with the world at large.  It is only the rare fringe person (not religiously based but more personality based it seems to me from personal observations here locally) that I have observed truly isolate their kids so much they don't seem to know how to function in society.  But I am only observing from the outside.  I do not know what is truly happening and there may be extenuating circumstances.

 

And just to mention, the most active groups around here for field trips and co-ops and get-togethers are in two religiously based organizations.  The secular group hardly does anything at all together (but they may be spread further apart in the community so it may be harder logistically).  

 

I agree with Dialectica that it is disappointing Bill Nye would be so dismissive.  But not terribly unexpected.  This really is a pretty common misconception that I run into ALL the time.

 

I also agree that because this is a really common stereotype, getting angry at some TV personality guy seems like a waste of time.  If someone wanted to help educate him about the realities of homeschooling, great.  But I don't think it is the evil statement it was made out to be.  Unfortunate, yes.  Unexpected and shocking?  Not really.

 

 My own next door neighbor, when my kids were trying to help chase down her dog, mentioned to me (trying to be delicate and polite) that she rarely sees my kids out doing anything and wondered when they get to see other children.  She looked genuinely shocked when I pointed out that the kids usually start school before her kids are even out the door (their choice) and are finished by noon or 1 on most days.  Therefore, most of our get-togethers with other families and kids occur long before she and her husband get home from work at 7pm.  

 

And the Student Council meetings, the Drama Club meetings and the Karate lessons occur as her kids are heading home from school to start homework.   I guess it never occurred to her that if we are doing our school work at home and start early in the morning, and we have already done our "homework" by afternoon, our schedule would be more flexible for doing other things in the afternoon.  I understand her confusion, though.  I didn't get it either until we started down this path...

 

Edited to add that there are a lot of introverts in our family and they seem to be able to function just fine in society even if they don't spend time with lots of people or other kids every single day.  DD is an introvert and so is DH.  DD gets out for Student Council stuff and Drama, and sometimes has friends over, but she actually seems to function better both academically and emotionally when she isn't forced to be around people all the time. She gets overloaded and starts to withdraw more if she can't take a break from people.

[Aelwydd]

I think a person would ask because she wants Bill Nye and his followers to know there are sciencey homeschool like her out there. She wants a nice flowery response acknowledging her existence from a guy she likes. I don't think it was an honest request for him write a science curriculum.

 

 

Then, when it turned out Bill Nye gave her a bit of a dismissive response that showed he didn't know everything about all there is to know and want interested in doing her work for her she got huffy.

 

But this was one question in a thread with thousands of comments. Thousands. And it was a stupid one. He's a TV personality with no ties to homeschooling. And someone is asking him to write a homeschooling curriculum? She can do her homework and find our write one herself. So I don't have any problem with his dismissive.

 

His ignorance? Oh well. We are a fringe group in the greater population and generally most people, especially those with lives as full as Bill Nye's, have other concerns. We are not so important that everyone has to educate themselves on homeschooling. And Mr. Nye's ignorance on this one matter is not going to make me reassess my view of him.

 

Frankly, I'm a little tired of the instant outrage I sometimes see in Levi circles and that the poster on the FB thread expressed. It's reflexive and reactionary and often, unthinking. We're annoyed about the stereotypes people have of us but then we turn around and perpetuate them by making a couple of sentences in a FB thread by a guy who is in no way important to the movement of homeschooling into major drama.

I'm neither outraged by his comment, nor is my disappointment to do with his ignorance about hs'ing. My criticism is focused on him making an apparently broad assumption based upon nothing but ignorance and prejudice, and applying it to a large subset of people.

 

He bills himself as a scientist; I'd rather he use his publicity to speak on matters about which he is informed, rather than fueling negative stereotypes about home schooling. There is such a thing as polite deferral.

 

But, beyond that, I strongly disagree with your attempt to blame the person who posed the question, going so far as to villify her because she was naturally offended by his dismissive and rude response. Which he gave in a public forum. Not well done at all by Nye, and very callous, IMO.

[Aelwydd]

If you google Jesus Camp full, a link comes up for vimeo which is the full doco with foreign subtitles. Well, it showed up for me in Upside Down Land :)

Thanks!

[Aelwydd]

Also, the irony is thick in the air in that we're having this "But but but not everyone who homeschools is an evangelical Christian" discussion on a forum where if you threw a dart at a random thread in the K-8 section you'll find a thread discussing "science" books by people promoting the unscientific view that the Earth is about 6,000 years old.

 

(Editing and clarifying: I say this not because I believe everyone who home schools is evangelical - that's obviously not true - but because if you ask someone to say what they think about homeschooling, of course the common perception of it matters.)

I understand your point, and I definatly agree that there are a considerable number of hs'ers that hold such a view. Hs conventions are obvious proof of that. However, there are a large portion who hold to theistic evolution and use secular texts to that end. There are a growing number of atheist and agnostic hs'ers as well. And you see that on this board as well.

 

I guess I just don't appreciate being grouped with a culture that is the anthesis of my secular, progressive, naturalist POV, lol.

[KarenC]

Given that the question was specifically about secular science curriculum and his answer was focused entirely on socialization, I think it's a stretch to call the Jesus Camp clip relevant.

What kind of "socialization" do you think those kids are getting?

[8circles]

Oh my word!  LOL  I had no idea that this Jesus Camp film had homeschoolers in it!  The first time I visited my Sis & BIL after beginning homeschooling, my BIL showed me a clip of that (the kids at actual camp) & I just laughed & rolled my eyes & asked him if he thought I was going my send my kids there.  We had a short conversation about how he hoped not & he said a few assumptive/offensive things & then I changed the subject.

 

Then a year or so later, my sis & he changed their will & asked if they could name me as their kids' guardian if needed.  I said of course & then to bring a little levity (emotional conversation) I mentioned that we'd start saving up now to send her kids to Jesus Camp.  He laughed but now I hope he knew I was joking. I should probably ask...

[WishboneDawn]

While he is not important to the homeschooling movement, he is a part of some individual homeschools. We, for one, have watched him with pleasure and my kids have learned some stuff from him. (No, not instead of a science curriculum, thanks, but as educational entertainment.) It's disappointing when someone you think of as informative and fun dismisses your choices, in which you have included him, without even thinking about it.

I agree. I can definitely understand the disappointment.

 

I just don't think outrage is the proper response.

[LucyStoner]

Oh my word! LOL I had no idea that this Jesus Camp film had homeschoolers in it! The first time I visited my Sis & BIL after beginning homeschooling, my BIL showed me a clip of that (the kids at actual camp) & I just laughed & rolled my eyes & asked him if he thought I was going my send my kids there. We had a short conversation about how he hoped not & he said a few assumptive/offensive things & then I changed the subject.

 

Then a year or so later, my sis & he changed their will & asked if they could name me as their kids' guardian if needed. I said of course & then to bring a little levity (emotional conversation) I mentioned that we'd start saving up now to send her kids to Jesus Camp. He laughed but now I hope he knew I was joking. I should probably ask...

Don't worry. They won't let Catholics into their camps. I was friends with a family of kids like this but once they realized we were Catholics, that was out like three day old trout.

[WishboneDawn]

Yeah, maybe you're right. I didn't think that it could all just be flattery. In which case, he certainly blew it! ;)

I have to admit that that was my first thought because I've done exactly as that woman did, ask someone I thought the world of a disingenuous question about homeschooling to 1) show how enlightened some of us homeschoolers are and 2)show what and enlightened homeschooling mommy I am.

 

I find that the things that get under my skin the most are inevitably things that I've been guilty of in the past.

[susankenny]

What kind of "socialization" do you think those kids are getting?

That clip hardly represents religious homeschoolers as a whole. Do you really think most Christians dress their kids in camouflage and call them Jesus soldiers? Have you watched the film? It doesn't even get good reviews from Christians. So to say it is highly relevant to what Bill Nye said to a secular homeschooler on his FB page... about a science curriculum no fundamentalist would even touch --- seems like a s t r e t c h

[EKS]

I used to like Bill Nye until he came to speak and some fundraiser in our town several years ago.  We were all excited.  It was horrible.  He was speaking to an audience filled with kids and his talk was targeted to adults.  If that wasn't bad enough, the talk was boring and weird (even to interested adults with backgrounds in science) and wandered about aimlessly.  It was almost as if there was something wrong with his ability to think clearly.  It was that odd.  We ended up walking out in the middle, and we never do that. 

 

Anyway, I've been wary of Bill Nye ever since.