I am very worried about my daughter being successful in college

[Elisabet1]

Reading some posts today got me feeling like I should just post about this, and maybe some of you can help me with my concerns.

 

Years ago (actually, right around when she got her first period), she started refusing to do the work I gave her at home. I finally just had it and sent her back to school. So she has done high school at public school. She has been in all AP classes and preAP classes. Thing is, I think the way she approaches everything, from school to even college applications, is just wrong. For example, she is always avoiding everything based on reviews. She did not take AP World History because she heard from others that the teacher is too hard. She can't even be happy with any colleges at all because she has found bad reviews online. Every college out there ultimately has a bad review some place. She has spent a fair amount of time crying because of some review she finds. She can find 50 great reviews, but one bad review and she hates the school. To top it off, the AP classes really just focused on test taking rather than actual learning. 

 

Last summer, she took an online class. We had to ride her every step of the way. And toward the end, she admitted that she never worked from the textbook, unless she had specific problems to do, and even then, she only did what she had to turn in. She frequently got angry at tests claiming the course never covered the material. But when I opened her book, I found everything had been covered. This was a math class through EPGY. This was AP math in fact. AND, I had owned a calculus program for more than a year before this, but she refused to study when I tried to get her to. Now, after summer was over, she said she wanted to complete the calculus program. But, she is dragging her feet every step of the way. She is not even half done, even though she completed AP math A through EPGY. Oh, and on the EPGY course, she admits to me that since everything was open book, she googled the answers to everything. I think her work ethic will get her no place. When left to her own vices, she chose to not do the work. This led to her screaming at us and getting angry all the time because we would insist she do her own work. 

 

She gets very angry with me all the time and accuses me of saying she is dumb or whatever when I try to get her to realize her limits. For example, since she never finished AP Math B, I contacted the public school she attends. They said she does not have what she needs to take AP math b/c, which she was already enrolled in for the spring. I went back and showed her the email and told her she needs to drop down to AP Math A/B, and she said I was calling her dumb. I tried to tell her it is not that she is dumb, she simply has not completed the coursework needed to go in to the next class. She said she wanted the chance to complete the work from my teaching her. However, she drags her feet on my teaching her. 

 

Now she has gotten in to a good selection of colleges. But each one at some point has had 1 person say something negative. SO, she does not want to go to any of them. She insists she can do better and I am putting her down by saying no. I didn't say no, I just said that the schools she is in are fine schools and it would be great if she attended one of them. Plus, she hates all the other schools too. She finds 1 review or comment she does not like, and she dismisses a school.

 

To top it off, she has enough AP credits, that by community college standards, she has about 60 credits. By the state universities, she has 52-54 credits depending. So community college is not a good option. 

 

I feel so frustrated!!! I definitely think she will completely fail if at state university because she will not do anything at all with school when left to her own, which is generally how state U is. She does so well in high school because her classes are all small, and the teachers notice and go to her if something is not done. Her smallest class has 2 people in it, her biggest classes have 30 students about. 

 

Any good advice? And not criticism. I am trying my hardest here and it is hard enough. Thank you!

 

edited to say: this is not about an adult making adult decisions and having to experience failure. This is about us spending our own money, which we do not have a ton of, and she is the 2nd of a large family. We cannot afford to throw money at something she has already proven she will fail at. It would be fine to step back and say "hey, she is an adult, she can make her own mistakes." This is about the mistake we would be making to throw tens of thousands of dollars at something that won't work out. This is OUR money, not hers. And the state universities are known for giving very little financial aid, even though we would qualify if they did. Our income is only a bit over the Pell grant level, which means we do not qualify for anything at the state university level. The state grants are tied in to the pell grant qualification. Regardless, our money, not hers. It is HER mistake if it is her money she throws away. It is OUR mistake if we give her money she throws away.

[mama27]

Reading some posts today got me feeling like I should just post about this, and maybe some of you can help me with my concerns.

 

Years ago (actually, right around when she got her first period), she started refusing to do the work I gave her at home. I finally just had it and sent her back to school. So she has done high school at public school. She has been in all AP classes and preAP classes. Thing is, I think the way she approaches everything, from school to even college applications, is just wrong. For example, she is always avoiding everything based on reviews. She did not take AP World History because she heard from others that the teacher is too hard. She can't even be happy with any colleges at all because she has found bad reviews online. Every college out there ultimately has a bad review some place. She has spent a fair amount of time crying because of some review she finds. She can find 50 great reviews, but one bad review and she hates the school. To top it off, the AP classes really just focused on test taking rather than actual learning. 

 

Last summer, she took an online class. We had to ride her every step of the way. And toward the end, she admitted that she never worked from the textbook, unless she had specific problems to do, and even then, she only did what she had to turn in. She frequently got angry at tests claiming the course never covered the material. But when I opened her book, I found everything had been covered. This was a math class through EPGY. This was AP math in fact. AND, I had owned a calculus program for more than a year before this, but she refused to study when I tried to get her to. Now, after summer was over, she said she wanted to complete the calculus program. But, she is dragging her feet every step of the way. She is not even half done, even though she completed AP math A through EPGY. Oh, and on the EPGY course, she admits to me that since everything was open book, she googled the answers to everything. I think her work ethic will get her no place. When left to her own vices, she chose to not do the work. This led to her screaming at us and getting angry all the time because we would insist she do her own work. 

 

She gets very angry with me all the time and accuses me of saying she is dumb or whatever when I try to get her to realize her limits. For example, since she never finished AP Math B, I contacted the public school she attends. They said she does not have what she needs to take AP math b/c, which she was already enrolled in for the spring. I went back and showed her the email and told her she needs to drop down to AP Math A/B, and she said I was calling her dumb. I tried to tell her it is not that she is dumb, she simply has not completed the coursework needed to go in to the next class. She said she wanted the chance to complete the work from my teaching her. However, she drags her feet on my teaching her. 

 

Now she has gotten in to a good selection of colleges. But each one at some point has had 1 person say something negative. SO, she does not want to go to any of them. She insists she can do better and I am putting her down by saying no. I didn't say no, I just said that the schools she is in are fine schools and it would be great if she attended one of them. Plus, she hates all the other schools too. She finds 1 review or comment she does not like, and she dismisses a school.

 

To top it off, she has enough AP credits, that by community college standards, she has about 60 credits. By the state universities, she has 52-54 credits depending. So community college is not a good option. 

 

I feel so frustrated!!! I definitely think she will completely fail if at state university because she will not do anything at all with school when left to her own, which is generally how state U is. She does so well in high school because her classes are all small, and the teachers notice and go to her if something is not done. Her smallest class has 2 people in it, her biggest classes have 30 students about. 

 

Any good advice? And not criticism. I am trying my hardest here and it is hard enough. Thank you!

My advice? She's an adult and you really can't make her do what the right thing. If she wants to go to college, she will have to do the work. It really has nothing to do with you, honestly. It's her life.

But if she's living in your house you could make certain rules such as go to college, get good grades or get a job and pay me rent! lol

[mama27]

And I would not pay for any of these classes if she is not going to do what she needs to do like an adult.

[73349]

:iagree: By the time a person is 17+, the ball is in her court. Let her know what you'll support and leave the rest to her, and she can let you know what she has chosen. Managing things for her (by you or by teachers or whoever) so there are no consequences for inaction or wrong actions does her no favor and is probably driving you batty by now. I'm sure she understands by this point that no one school is perfect for everyone--no one pair of shoes fits everyone, but we don't give up and go barefoot in the streets.

She will eventually deal with her fear of making the wrong choice and doubting her abiliity to do hard things and live with whatever she chooses. This may involve an unpleasant failure. She will appreciate it if you can refrain from saying, "I told you so." You do not need to do anything to clean up the mess.

[Susan in TX]

There comes a point where you just have to let go. Does she even want to go to college? I would just back off and let her make her own decisions and her own mistakes. Yes, she might make a bad decision...that's the risk you have to take in order to allow her to grow up.

 

Susan in TX

[Elisabet1]

And I would not pay for any of these classes if she is not going to do what she needs to do like an adult.

That is how I feel. The EPGY course was already expensive for us. Paying for college is a huge deal. And I feel like she is not ready for a huge state university. I really cannot see her being successful there and I do not have the money to throw at her being unsuccessful. I am frustrated already that she did what she did with that course at our expense. If she were paying for this herself, then her loss. But we will be putting money in to it. 

[8filltheheart]

editing b/c I disagree with my OP and posted below.

[Lolly]

That is how I feel. The EPGY course was already expensive for us. Paying for college is a huge deal. And I feel like she is not ready for a huge state university. I really cannot see her being successful there and I do not have the money to throw at her being unsuccessful. I am frustrated already that she did what she did with that course at our expense. If she were paying for this herself, then her loss. But we will be putting money in to it. 

 

 

If the huge state university is her choice of schools, you can make rules for your input of money. If she is making X.XX gpa, you fund. If she does not, she has to pay. I hate to admit it, but my eldest dc made me put my foot in my mouth. I did not think she would do well in college. She chose her path (not the one I would have chosen for her); she followed it; she is a 3 semesters from graduation with a 3.8 gpa. (Honestly, it would be a 4.0 if she didn't have a few horrid instructors!) She is an exceptionally diligent student whose teachers adore her. I would have never believed that would be the case. Yes, you may be losing some $ by allowing her to try it her way, but unless she has done something that is really messing up you probably owe it to her to chose her path. At most, you may lose a semester of $ if you attach rules.

[Miss Marple]

Are there any nearby state universities that are feeders into the huge state uni?  We have one locally.  I look at it as a step above the CC.  It really isn't as rigorous as the state uni where my older boys are/were.  Both younger boys went to this local uni concurrently and have been quite successful.  The older boys went there as well and then attended the state uni.  I think they are called "regional" universities around here.

[Aspasia]

Why are you guys throwing your money at it? Why CAN'T it be her money and her mistake?

 

I can't remember where I read or heard this, but I once heard of a family where the parents paid for the first semester of college, and if the kids achieved a certain GPA (you choose, but I think theirs was like a 3.0), then great. If they failed to do that, they had to pay the parents back. Either way, after that first semester, the kids had to pay their own tuition (or take out a loan). If they got a 3.0 or higher, the parents would pay THEM back for that semester. Could you do something like that, where you are spending your money ONLY if/when she is doing her part?

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Her behavior does not sound typical of just a lazy teenager. I don't think you should ignore these warning signs about your daughter's ability to cope with change. If she is truly crying because of reviews that she reads online and demonstrating these other behaviors, it sounds like she needs to be evaluated by a professional.

[MinivanMom]

If the huge state university is her choice of schools, you can make rules for your input of money. If she is making X.XX gpa, you fund. If she does not, she has to pay. I hate to admit it, but my eldest dc made me put my foot in my mouth. I did not think she would do well in college. She chose her path (not the one I would have chosen for her); she followed it; she is a 3 semesters from graduation with a 3.8 gpa. (Honestly, it would be a 4.0 if she didn't have a few horrid instructors!) She is an exceptionally diligent student whose teachers adore her. I would have never believed that would be the case. Yes, you may be losing some $ by allowing her to try it her way, but unless she has done something that is really messing up you probably owe it to her to chose her path. At most, you may lose a semester of $ if you attach rules.

 

This.

 

I have seen a lot of situations IRL where the parents were just sure their kids would fail (based on past patterns of behavior). Instead the kids jumped in and got it done once it was their responsibility instead of their parents monitoring and riding them all the time. It's interesting that your daughter has been doing so well in public school AP classes after struggling at home. Maybe they weren't the most rigorous or in-depth classes, but it shows that your daughter is willing to step up and meet the demands of the system. Going to college is just one more new system. If the past is any indication then I think your daughter has the capacity to step-up once it's entirely her responsibility. The hardest part might be sending her off and then . . . not monitoring . . . not checking up on her . . . not asking questions . . . maybe not even calling too often. The most you can lose is one semester's tuition, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if she shocked you by doing great. Can you afford to invest one semester's worth of tuition?

[EKS]

I would tell her that you'll commit to paying for college for a year.  If her grades for that year meet some minimum standard that you set beforehand, you'll commit to paying for a second year.  And so on.  If her grades do not meet that minimum standard, she not only doesn't get money for college, she also is not allowed to move back home.

 

That said, a lot of what you described seems to be fairly typical teenage stuff.

[jillian]

I would encourage her to look into trade schools and military service also just so she can look at "all" options.

 

ETA: my freshman year I rarely went to class because I thought I didn't have to. The next 3 years I had to work my rear off to get my GPA back up but I learned from my own mistakes

[mama27]

That is how I feel. The EPGY course was already expensive for us. Paying for college is a huge deal. And I feel like she is not ready for a huge state university. I really cannot see her being successful there and I do not have the money to throw at her being unsuccessful. I am frustrated already that she did what she did with that course at our expense. If she were paying for this herself, then her loss. But we will be putting money in to it. 

  So why are you paying for it? She's not a child anymore. Sometimes you just have to make them accept the responsibility for their own actions.

[stripe]

I have also known several people who were not prepared for college, dropped out, and eventually returned, got their degree, and were very focused, and now have great careers, so it's not as if by not going right now, it is a lost cause or she'll never go.

[FO4UR]

I agree with helping only with boundaries.

 

Your $, your rules.  She must attend class, turn in work, maintain a decent GPA, and work. 

 

 

 

You are spot-on that her work ethic is going to sink her.  It sounds like she then blames (and rages!) others when she fails.  The very best way to love her is to let her fail, fail hard, and refuse to take responsibility for her failure.  Do not ride her to study.  Do not wake her in the morning. Do not do her laundry. Do not listen when she rages about how life is unfair. 

 

 

What does she want to do?  She needs to figure that out.  She then needs to go do it.  Let her go.  (It's better to do this now than later.)

[boscopup]

On the reviews issue... It sounds like she needs a lesson on how to use reviews. It's an important lesson in this online world.

 

Could you try finding a household object that she enjoys using and sees nothing wrong with, then look it up on Amazon? Find bad reviews and good reviews, and show that while yes, there are bad reviews (because everything has bad reviews), most people like it, and hey, she herself actually likes it, so clearly the bad reviews weren't applicable to her.

 

I like others' idea about paying for one semester at a time, only if she keeps her gpa up. You never know what she'll do when she's on her own and has no one to be responsible for her.

[fourisenough]

I hear some co-dependence in your description of your relationship with your daughter. Very respectfully, I would suggest setting some clear boundaries and beginning to extricate yourself from her education. Based on your portrayal the situation, I would not recommend funding more than one semester unless she proves that she wants to be there and can handle the work (as measured by an agreed upon minimum GPA). Good luck.

[MomatHWTK]

I would consider a visit to a therapist to deal directly with the fear of making bad decisions, rigidity in thinking, etc. 

[rdj2027]

I think I am missing something.  I understand she has 52 to 54 credits for college from her high school time.  How did she accumulate those if she never did anything?

[Pen]

Try to find an excellent therapist...who can help sort out what is going on, and work with you on what course of action to take.

 

 

[Tracy]

I would not pay for college until she pays back the money from the EPGY course.  

[Entropymama]

First of all,  :grouphug:

 

Being a parent is hard. 

 

Secondly, I don't know a single adult whose parents paid for their college education. If you have a large family (I do, too) I would prioritize my college spending by interest. For us, my second born will definitely be college bound, so he's the one we're saving for. If the oldest decides she wants to go, we'll shift our priorities. 

Maybe what she really wants is to not go to college. Would it be acceptable for her to do something else? Maybe she feels pressure to go and is acting out because it's not what she wants. A skip year is great for some kids. She could get a job, go on a mission trip, travel, volunteer, whatever. Even if she's living home rent free it's cheaper than college. 

 

You can do it! 

[Aspasia]

First of all, :grouphug:

 

Being a parent is hard.

 

Secondly, I don't know a single adult whose parents paid for their college education. If you have a large family (I do, too) I would prioritize my college spending by interest. For us, my second born will definitely be college bound, so he's the one we're saving for. If the oldest decides she wants to go, we'll shift our priorities.

Maybe what she really wants is to not go to college. Would it be acceptable for her to do something else? Maybe she feels pressure to go and is acting out because it's not what she wants. A skip year is great for some kids. She could get a job, go on a mission trip, travel, volunteer, whatever. Even if she's living home rent free it's cheaper than college.

 

You can do it!

I know TONS of adults whose parents paid for their college. Mine paid my tuition, but I had to get a part-time job to pay for living expenses. I live in the DC area and know an obscene amount of people whose parents paid for their school (at Ivy League universities), and continue to pay for them to travel and do other things, even though they have good-paying grown-up jobs. That part is strange to me, but paying for (reasonably priced) college is not.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

This isn't easy for you or your family and I know you are frustrated and worried.  I am so sorry.  I agree with others.  Maybe she needs time working in a job, experiencing life and finding a real focus before going on to college.  My boyfriend in college did that and he said it really turned him around.  

 

Even if she wants to go right after High School, I also agree that you need to set some financial boundaries, as clearly and supportively as possible.  It seems that going on a semester by semester basis would be the least financially risky for you.  I also agree, don't offer any advice or tell her what she should or shouldn't be doing.  If she asks for advice, give it, but don't offer or press her with your worries or opinions.  She needs to learn how to function without you and she may have to take a pretty hard fall to do it.  

 

My nephew is brilliant but he nearly flunked High School because he developed a pretty bad attitude for completing his work, etc.  When he went on to the local University, his parents gave him the following guidelines:  tuition covered by them each semester as long as he maintains a 3.5 GPA (some would find that too high, though); he can live at home as long as he keeps his room clean and helps maintain the house; all personal expenses, such as movies, etc. he has to cover himself with a part time job; he can earn extra money by helping various family members; funding ceases if he cannot maintain his GPA, but how he functions in school is his own business and his career choices are also his own business.  The difference is night and day.  He is truly engaged in his own education now and is maintaining a nearly 4.0 GPA.  He has lots of plans that he is working hard to implement and he is a much more pleasant and easy going person now....

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth... :)

Best wishes to you and your family.  Hope you find a path that works for all of you.

[MinivanMom]

I think I am missing something.  I understand she has 52 to 54 credits for college from her high school time.  How did she accumulate those if she never did anything?

 

I agree. It sounds like she is doing very well academically if she has that many college credits (from AP classes?) and got into several good colleges. This doesn't sound like a work ethic problem at all to me, so I'm not sure the stories of kids flunking out repeatedly are applicable to this situation.

 

For the OP: It sounds like you feel she doesn't live up to her potential or doesn't get as much out of her class experience as she should. It also sounds like you are involved in a lot of hand-holding as she works on her independent classes and applies to college. I understand your frustration, but this doesn't sound like a child on her way to flunking out of college or repeatedly failing. She just sounds like a typical bright teenager: high-achieving yet not always displaying a perfect attitude or fully living up to her potential. Could she be more responsible and independent? Most teenagers could. Is she on her way to a life of failure and dysfunction? Well, I doubt any kid leaving high school with 50+ college credits is going to spend the rest of her life playing video games in your basement. Does she need a therapist? I didn't read anything to indicate that! I'm really surprised that anyone would think that it's a good idea to drag a 17/18 yr old to a therapist, because she's having trouble picking a college. It would likely hurt your relationship with her more than anything else.

 

Give her some space and freedom and independence. Let her know how long you will be willing to fund her tuition and what your expectations are (maybe a single semester unless she maintains a 3.5 or higher). Then step back and let her live her life. If she fails, it's on her.

[NASDAQ]

She's got nearly 60 credits -- so half a degree. I think you're entitled to put a limit on the amount of money you're willing to spend. For example, you will cover two years' worth of classes, but not more. Or you will pay as long as she maintains an X GPA. Scholarships work this way.

 

((hugs))

[kiana]

Honestly, if she doesn't find a school she wants to go to, she needs to get a job. It is NOT the end of the world if an 18 year old gets a job instead of going to school. I would let her know that.

 

If she does decide to attend one of the schools she has been accepted at instead of getting a job, I think putting a limit on "We will pay as long as your GPA is over x" is a good idea. I wouldn't make x 3.7 or something -- frankly I think that will exacerbate her already risk-averse academic behaviour. Set something reasonable that should be attainable even if she takes tough classes. But don't micromanage her -- that way, you're only out one semester.

 

However, I would really quit trying to find schools for her. Tell her it's up to her to find a school that she wants to go to, you will pay x dollars, you will be happy to help if she wants, and leave her alone. Again, if she ends up not going to school this year because she can't get it together, it's not the end of the world.

[kiana]

Honestly, if she doesn't find a school she wants to go to, she needs to get a job. It is NOT the end of the world if an 18 year old gets a job instead of going to school. I would let her know that.

 

If she does decide to attend one of the schools she has been accepted at instead of getting a job, I think putting a limit on "We will pay as long as your GPA is over x" is a good idea. I wouldn't make x 3.7 or something -- frankly I think that will exacerbate her already risk-averse academic behaviour. Set something reasonable that should be attainable even if she takes tough classes. But don't micromanage her -- that way, you're only out one semester.

 

However, I would really quit trying to find schools for her. Tell her it's up to her to find a school that she wants to go to, you will pay x dollars, you will be happy to help if she wants, and leave her alone. Again, if she ends up not going to school this year because she can't get it together, it's not the end of the world.

[8filltheheart]

Reading some posts today got me feeling like I should just post about this, and maybe some of you can help me with my concerns.

 

Years ago (actually, right around when she got her first period), she started refusing to do the work I gave her at home. I finally just had it and sent her back to school. So she has done high school at public school. She has been in all AP classes and preAP classes. Thing is, I think the way she approaches everything, from school to even college applications, is just wrong. For example, she is always avoiding everything based on reviews. She did not take AP World History because she heard from others that the teacher is too hard. She can't even be happy with any colleges at all because she has found bad reviews online. Every college out there ultimately has a bad review some place. She has spent a fair amount of time crying because of some review she finds. She can find 50 great reviews, but one bad review and she hates the school. To top it off, the AP classes really just focused on test taking rather than actual learning.

 

Last summer, she took an online class. We had to ride her every step of the way. And toward the end, she admitted that she never worked from the textbook, unless she had specific problems to do, and even then, she only did what she had to turn in. She frequently got angry at tests claiming the course never covered the material. But when I opened her book, I found everything had been covered. This was a math class through EPGY. This was AP math in fact. AND, I had owned a calculus program for more than a year before this, but she refused to study when I tried to get her to. Now, after summer was over, she said she wanted to complete the calculus program. But, she is dragging her feet every step of the way. She is not even half done, even though she completed AP math A through EPGY. Oh, and on the EPGY course, she admits to me that since everything was open book, she googled the answers to everything. I think her work ethic will get her no place. When left to her own vices, she chose to not do the work. This led to her screaming at us and getting angry all the time because we would insist she do her own work.

 

She gets very angry with me all the time and accuses me of saying she is dumb or whatever when I try to get her to realize her limits. For example, since she never finished AP Math B, I contacted the public school she attends. They said she does not have what she needs to take AP math b/c, which she was already enrolled in for the spring. I went back and showed her the email and told her she needs to drop down to AP Math A/B, and she said I was calling her dumb. I tried to tell her it is not that she is dumb, she simply has not completed the coursework needed to go in to the next class. She said she wanted the chance to complete the work from my teaching her. However, she drags her feet on my teaching her.

 

Now she has gotten in to a good selection of colleges. But each one at some point has had 1 person say something negative. SO, she does not want to go to any of them. She insists she can do better and I am putting her down by saying no. I didn't say no, I just said that the schools she is in are fine schools and it would be great if she attended one of them. Plus, she hates all the other schools too. She finds 1 review or comment she does not like, and she dismisses a school.

 

To top it off, she has enough AP credits, that by community college standards, she has about 60 credits. By the state universities, she has 52-54 credits depending. So community college is not a good option.

 

I feel so frustrated!!! I definitely think she will completely fail if at state university because she will not do anything at all with school when left to her own, which is generally how state U is. She does so well in high school because her classes are all small, and the teachers notice and go to her if something is not done. Her smallest class has 2 people in it, her biggest classes have 30 students about.

 

Any good advice? And not criticism. I am trying my hardest here and it is hard enough. Thank you!

 

edited to say: this is not about an adult making adult decisions and having to experience failure. This is about us spending our own money, which we do not have a ton of, and she is the 2nd of a large family. We cannot afford to throw money at something she has already proven she will fail at. It would be fine to step back and say "hey, she is an adult, she can make her own mistakes." This is about the mistake we would be making to throw tens of thousands of dollars at something that won't work out. This is OUR money, not hers. And the state universities are known for giving very little financial aid, even though we would qualify if they did. Our income is only a bit over the Pell grant level, which means we do not qualify for anything at the state university level. The state grants are tied in to the pell grant qualification. Regardless, our money, not hers. It is HER mistake if it is her money she throws away. It is OUR mistake if we give her money she throws away.

I just re-read this post bc I only skimmed it the first time and missed the 56 credits strictly from AP exams. So I went in search of other posts to see if I could get a better understanding. I am assuming it is the same dd from the multiple posts on the high school and college board.

 

If so, what is this child's diagnosis? I think leaving out the fact that she has serious problems is not giving the full story. There is a world of difference between your avg teen and kids that are on the spectrum or have other major issues. Our Aspie has a very high IQ and makes As in straight-forward memorize/regurgitate/paper college classes with zero effort. BUT ask him to do even something inane that is outside his regular experience comfort zone and he melts down. He was in a business class and he was expected to design a small business project (nothing difficult) but it was not your typical exam or essay, etc. He completely shut down over the project. As he progressed in classes, he dug his heels in and wouldn't take classes that he didn't like and freaked out over classes that were project or team oriented. His stress levels and anxiety cripple him.

 

With our ds, it got so bad that we had to really step back and re-evaluate everything about his future goals. (I am not going to go into everything we tried to help him move forward......there is a novel's worth of his story on the SN board.). Anyway, he is now finally happy and confident working at Goodwill. It has nothing to do with intellectual ability. It has everything to do with independent functioning, executive skills, etc. and emotional stability. Maybe 4-5 yrs from now with more time to mature and having more adult like experiences he will be able to attempt college once again. But he is definitely not ready at this pt (and he will be 22 in Feb.)

 

All that to say........grades, test scores are not indicators of success in higher ed for kids that have serious deficits in simply functioning independently. I think you are recognizing that simply sending her off to college is setting her up for failure. There are universities that have assistance programs in place for Aspies....... Marshall and WKU's Kelly Autism Program are 2 that I am familiar with. I didn't spend enough time searching to find out what yr dd's issues really are, but I do think you are correct to work through many of these questions prior to her leaving home.

[...................]

If the huge state university is her choice of schools, you can make rules for your input of money. If she is making X.XX gpa, you fund. If she does not, she has to pay. I hate to admit it, but my eldest dc made me put my foot in my mouth. I did not think she would do well in college. She chose her path (not the one I would have chosen for her); she followed it; she is a 3 semesters from graduation with a 3.8 gpa. (Honestly, it would be a 4.0 if she didn't have a few horrid instructors!) She is an exceptionally diligent student whose teachers adore her. I would have never believed that would be the case. Yes, you may be losing some $ by allowing her to try it her way, but unless she has done something that is really messing up you probably owe it to her to chose her path. At most, you may lose a semester of $ if you attach rules.

This makes sense to me

[Pen]

Does she need a therapist? I didn't read anything to indicate that! I'm really surprised that anyone would think that it's a good idea to drag a 17/18 yr old to a therapist, because she's having trouble picking a college. ...  step back and let her live her life. If she fails, it's on her.

 

Because to me it did not sound like a typical teen situation--or at least potentially not--but rather a child or young adult who may be having something (? at least potentially) that is not in normal range.  I think an excellent therapist or professional would be better at making that determination than people on a forum sight unseen. If an excellent professional in an in-person evaluation decided that it is just bad attitude and suggests the let her fail approach that might be the way to go, but it also may well not be what is happening.

 

Crying at negative reviews and other reported behaviours sound like possible dysthymia, depression and/or some sort of anxiety or other problem beyond normal. It is one thing to let a child fail for bad attitude and let it be on her, and if that is the situation, then I'd agree. But if she has an undiagnosed disorder such as depression, then I think letting her fail would be unfair and that she would need help and treatment, not a sink or swim attitude.

 

Not to worry the OP, but a sibling of a friend of mine had something like this going on and the sink or swim approach led to a suicide because the actual underlying issue was depression and feeling incapable and unworthy. I have no idea if something like that is applicable to OP's child, but I know that my friend's family regretted their approach and kicked themselves about not having noticed subtle signs when it might not yet have been too late, and have told their friends (like me) to err on the side of checking out a possible problem like depression. One can explain to the person involved ones concerns and reasons for wanting a professional involved and that it is coming from a place of love and concern. There is not only an issue of it being out of a place of love and concern for the child herself, but also for the rest of the family. Having her brother hang himself with a belt was not helpful for my friend either though it was a trauma she could eventually get over I am sure she would have preferred not to have had it happen.

 

The assumption being made is that the failure if it happens in a sink or swim approach would just be getting bad grades, maybe flunking out, but that is not all that can happen. And a child/young adult who may already be showing some signs of depression, low self-esteem, etc., may react to a failure differently than posters who are advocating that approach may be expecting.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

The assumption being made is that the failure if it happens in a sink or swim approach would just be getting bad grades, maybe flunking out, but that is not all that can happen. And a child/young adult who may already be showing some signs of depression, low self-esteem, etc., may react to a failure differently than posters who are advocating that approach may be expecting.

 

Okay, I totally get this viewpoint. My concern would be that if the teen is not suffering from depression, but maybe just having some values conflicts with mom (which is how I read the original post) that sending her to a therapist would not be sending a loving or supportive message. There can also be a phenomenon where there is a problem with the entire family dynamic, but the teenager becomes the scapegoat and is sent to therapy. It can send the message that the child is the problem, which could cause an increase in depression and damage to the parent-child relationship rather than helping. This is why many good therapists will request to see the entire family when a teen is brought in for therapy. I say this as someone who has had family members commit suicide, so (based on first-hand experience) I don't think therapy is always a magical cure. It can also be used to hurt teens by abusive/manipulative parents. *Just commenting on the phenomenon in general! None of this is in reference to the original poster.*

 

For the OP. Am I understanding correctly from other posts that your daughter is on the spectrum? I think that is an entirely different situation. If that is the case, then I'm not sure your daughter needs therapy for depression or the sink or swim approach. I'm thinking maybe your daughter is needing a lot more life/social support as she makes this transition and maybe you need guidance from someone who is with experienced helping kids on the spectrum transition to independent adult life. I don't know exactly who that would be, but you might want to be asking these colleges questions about their student support services. All colleges have a "university accessibility center" or some other euphemistically named center to support students with disabilities or challenges. Maybe you want to be guiding your daughter toward a smaller school that would have strong social supports and a helpful support center for students on the spectrum.

[8filltheheart]

For the OP. Am I understanding correctly from other posts that your daughter is on the spectrum?

I didn't mean to imply her dd was on the spectrum. However, based on numerous posts about her dd on the highschool and college forums, her dd definitely is not just the avg rebellious teen either. She has posted numerous instances of extreme anger, high levels of anxiety, a family history of bipolar disorder, etc. I posted that I didn't search to see if there was a diagnosis posted. The Aspie is mine. My pt was that in no way can I compare his functioning with his perfectly normal siblings. There is no comparison. They stretch their wings and thrive. The exact same scenarios could potentially land him in a psychiatric ward, prison, or curled up in a gutter some where. He has zero coping mechanisms and only reacts way out of proportion to the given situation vs. attempting to resolve/deal with issues.

[MomatHWTK]

.... I'm thinking maybe your daughter is needing a lot more life/social support as she makes this transition and maybe you need guidance from someone who is with experienced helping kids on the spectrum transition to independent adult life. I don't know exactly who that would be,...

That would be a therapist, like the one my DS sees. Therapy isn't just for depression.   

[DragonFaerie]

I have not read all the replies, so some of this may have already been said.  With regards to the reviews, she needs to understand that some people will NEVER be pleased with ANYTHING and that oftentimes, when people are happy with something, they don't bother to review it.  My dad gave me some great advice when looking at reviews on Amazon.  Consider the number of 4- and 5-star reviews together as compared to the total number of reviews and then consider the number of 1- and 2-star reviews comparatively because some people will never give 5 stars no matter how great the thing is and some people will always be unhappy with a product no matter how good it is.  For a college, that one bad review could be from a kid whose girlfriend broke up with him because he went to a school too far away from her and now he's mad that he went to that school, or something else equally ridiculous.  There's no pleasing some people.

 

As for the money, what my parents did with my older brother might be good for y'all.  They made him save up and pay for his first semester of college. If he got acceptable grades (you can decide what constitutes acceptable), then they would pay for the next semester.  Or you could turn it around and pay for the first semester and she has to "earn" the second via her grades.  That way you're not throwing money away and she has to earn her way through by working at her grades.

 

 

[Lizzie in Ma]

I don't blame you for your concerns. 

My only advice, if she wants to go to college upon graduation, is to have her pay for it herself.  There was a vastly different work ethic, when I went to college, between those of us who worked our butts of to be there and those whose parents were paying for them.  I know this is a massive generalization and only my own observation but it sure seemed to be the case for a great many of the kids I ran in to.  I saw a fair few flunk out in the first year because they wouldn't put in the work.

 

Personally, I knew my parents couldn't pay so I worked for 5 years at a bakery to earn the money to go, took out a few student loans and worked three jobs.  You'd better believe my education mattered to me.

Dh went into the army for two years for his college money, his parents couldn't afford it either.

 

If she isn't willing to do the work now, what would be different if you sent her to college?

Perhaps, once she has proven herself to be responsible, you could take over paying?

Just my .02 for whatever it's worth.

 

[MBM]

Reading some posts today got me feeling like I should just post about this, and maybe some of you can help me with my concerns.

 

Years ago (actually, right around when she got her first period), she started refusing to do the work I gave her at home.

 

That's about the age tweens/teens begin the process of becoming autonomous, when they begin to carve out a social domain and identity that is theirs alone, separate from their parents. From Po Bronson's book Nurture  Shock:

 

The big surprise in the research is when this need for autonomy is strongest. It's not mild at 12, moderate at 15, and most powerful at 18. [Dr. Nancy] Darling's scholarship shows that the objection to parental authority peaks around age 14 to 15. In fact, this resistance is slightly stronger at age 11 than at 18.

 

 

 

I finally just had it and sent her back to school. So she has done high school at public school. She has been in all AP classes and preAP classes. Thing is, I think the way she approaches everything, from school to even college applications, is just wrong. For example, she is always avoiding everything based on reviews. She did not take AP World History because she heard from others that the teacher is too hard. She can't even be happy with any colleges at all because she has found bad reviews online. Every college out there ultimately has a bad review some place. She has spent a fair amount of time crying because of some review she finds. She can find 50 great reviews, but one bad review and she hates the school. To top it off, the AP classes really just focused on test taking rather than actual learning.

 

On the one hand, your daughter is doing the right thing by researching and getting information. That is good. However, she needs some help in learning how to evaluate the one or few bad reviews so that she won't become paralyzed with the fear of making a horrible, unchangeable mistake.

 

Regarding the math and having to ride her tail, does math make her feel anxious? That's not unusual. Or, maybe it's not a subject she likes much. If she just finishes Calc A/B, that would be fine. It's better to understand what she's studying than to move ahead too quickly.

 

To top it off, she has enough AP credits, that by community college standards, she has about 60 credits. By the state universities, she has 52-54 credits depending. So community college is not a good option.

 

Your daughter has worked very hard if she has that many credits already. She is clearly not a slacker.

 

Any good advice? And not criticism. I am trying my hardest here and it is hard enough. Thank you!

 

I think both you and your daughter might be prone to catastrophizing. (I tend to do it, too.) If the two of you can learn to slow down and catch yourselves when you do this, the anxiety will start to diminish. It's not hard to do, you just have to be willing to give it a shot. Martin Seligman's book The Optimistic Child explains why it's important to figure out what sorts of automatic thoughts we have as well as how to change them for the better. It's a type of cognitive behavior therapy.

 

I don't think letting her fail will help her -- or you -- at all.

 

 

 

[Elisabet1]

I didn't mean to imply her dd was on the spectrum. However, based on numerous posts about her dd on the highschool and college forums, her dd definitely is not just the avg rebellious teen either. She has posted numerous instances of extreme anger, high levels of anxiety, a family history of bipolar disorder, etc. I posted that I didn't search to see if there was a diagnosis posted. The Aspie is mine. My pt was that in no way can I compare his functioning with his perfectly normal siblings. There is no comparison. They stretch their wings and thrive. The exact same scenarios could potentially land him in a psychiatric ward, prison, or curled up in a gutter some where. He has zero coping mechanisms and only reacts way out of proportion to the given situation vs. attempting to resolve/deal with issues.

I have 3 sons on the spectrum. We did get her evaluated and they said no, she was not on the spectrum. But honestly, we really see this in her. She was evaluated years ago and had auditory processing disorder. This new eval was by people who generally deal in Autism Spectrum Disorder, not the other things, like APD.  I do wonder if being a girl, it was harder to get her DX'd. Most people dx'd with this are boys. 

[Elisabet1]

Also, the point was that she does not do the work if she is not engaged and being held accountable. From my experiences of my son at a small LAC, he has gotten his work done and loved his classes and feels involved. For me, when I was in college, in large classes where home work was never turned in and I couldn't even sit close enough to see what the teacher looked like, I just really struggled. I think my daughter is the same way, as evidenced by how she handled her online math class. Plus, I do not think she is that self motivated to study things other people assign, unless she feels engaged in the classes. For example, she continues to spend tons of time studying Gaelic, a class she takes through the community. But still can barely get herself to pick up her math book, still. She swears she wants to major in math or a STEM major. Originally, she wanted to major in languages (Linguistics, but the language subsection).  But that is a whole other thing.

 

 

I just think she needs to feel an emotional connection, and large classes will not suit her at all. I think she will do fine at school when she has that connection. But she will melt away and go in to her depression and anger with frustration if not. Maybe this is related to the APD, I don't know.

 

However, I did take her shopping yesterday, and during the trip, had a deep discussion with her where she actually listened to my concerns. We brainstormed some smaller schools she could like and do well in. She agreed with me (or at least pretended to, LOL, good enough!) She came home excited to get to work on the smaller schools and such.

[MinivanMom]

Also, the point was that she does not do the work if she is not engaged and being held accountable. From my experiences of my son at a small LAC, he has gotten his work done and loved his classes and feels involved. For me, when I was in college, in large classes where home work was never turned in and I couldn't even sit close enough to see what the teacher looked like, I just really struggled. I think my daughter is the same way, as evidenced by how she handled her online math class. Plus, I do not think she is that self motivated to study things other people assign, unless she feels engaged in the classes. For example, she continues to spend tons of time studying Gaelic, a class she takes through the community. But still can barely get herself to pick up her math book, still. She swears she wants to major in math or a STEM major. Originally, she wanted to major in languages (Linguistics, but the language subsection).  But that is a whole other thing.

 

 

I just think she needs to feel an emotional connection, and large classes will not suit her at all. I think she will do fine at school when she has that connection. But she will melt away and go in to her depression and anger with frustration if not. Maybe this is related to the APD, I don't know.

 

However, I did take her shopping yesterday, and during the trip, had a deep discussion with her where she actually listened to my concerns. We brainstormed some smaller schools she could like and do well in. She agreed with me (or at least pretended to, LOL, good enough!) She came home excited to get to work on the smaller schools and such.

 

That's great! I really think a small lac with small classes and lots of social supports might be the best environment for your daughter. Your daughter sounds quite intelligent so you also might want to ask about honors programs within the college itself. Usually, honors classes will be smaller and at some schools you can even request to live in an honors dorm. It's just one more way to make the college experience a little smaller and more supportive.

[8filltheheart]

Also, the point was that she does not do the work if she is not engaged and being held accountable. .

This is why I suggested looking into support programs on campus. For example, this is what the Kelly Autism Program offers at WKU---

 

The KAP Circle of Support provides four major areas of assistance: private room, study tables mentoring and socials. The theoretical framework for KAP is Social Information Processing Theory and Executive Function Skill Development.

 

1. Private Room

We recognize the need for space and will provide a single room. Every attempt is made to assign you to a residence hall that has a quiet living environment. As part of KAP, your rate is for double occupancy but you will be assigned a single room.

2. Study Tables

KAP also provides mandatory study tables for all participants four days a week for three hours each session. KAP staff works on executive functioning skills (organization, prioritizing work, etc) as well as tutoring. Study table staff consist of undergraduate and graduate students from WKU who have been trained in using "Evidence Based Practices" for individuals diagnosed with ASD. The staff consist of students from a variety of majors including: Exceptional Education, Communication Disorders, Public Health, English, Math, Biology, etc.. The KAP director and managers are WKU members, who are actively involved with the participants during the tutoring sessions and social activities as well as meeting with the participants individually.

3. Mentoring

The third support the program provides is mentoring. Each participant is assigned a mentor (undergrad or graduate KAP staff) who meets with them on a weekly basis. The mentor will help the participant get acclimated and involved in various clubs and organizations on WKU's campus. If needed, KAP will also connect participants with counselors.

4. Socials

KAP also has socials several times a months. Participants plan these events.

[Elisabet1]

This is why I suggested looking into support programs on campus. For example, this is what the Kelly Autism Program offers at WKU---

 

The KAP Circle of Support provides four major areas of assistance: private room, study tables mentoring and socials. The theoretical framework for KAP is Social Information Processing Theory and Executive Function Skill Development.

 

1. Private Room

We recognize the need for space and will provide a single room. Every attempt is made to assign you to a residence hall that has a quiet living environment. As part of KAP, your rate is for double occupancy but you will be assigned a single room.

2. Study Tables

KAP also provides mandatory study tables for all participants four days a week for three hours each session. KAP staff works on executive functioning skills (organization, prioritizing work, etc) as well as tutoring. Study table staff consist of undergraduate and graduate students from WKU who have been trained in using "Evidence Based Practices" for individuals diagnosed with ASD. The staff consist of students from a variety of majors including: Exceptional Education, Communication Disorders, Public Health, English, Math, Biology, etc.. The KAP director and managers are WKU members, who are actively involved with the participants during the tutoring sessions and social activities as well as meeting with the participants individually.

3. Mentoring

The third support the program provides is mentoring. Each participant is assigned a mentor (undergrad or graduate KAP staff) who meets with them on a weekly basis. The mentor will help the participant get acclimated and involved in various clubs and organizations on WKU's campus. If needed, KAP will also connect participants with counselors.

4. Socials

KAP also has socials several times a months. Participants plan these events.

What is WKU? This program sounds wonderful!!

 

I looked it up...Western Kentucky U. I do not think we have programs like that in Texas.

[8filltheheart]

What is WKU? This program sounds wonderful!!

 

I looked it up...Western Kentucky U. I do not think we have programs like that in Texas.

 

We don't live in KY, but I would send our ds there before almost any other program in the country. It is the most comprehensive for meeting his individual needs (including the private room).

 

If you search for university support programs for Asperger's, you should be able to find multiple programs. Here is one such link

http://collegeautismspectrum.com/collegeprograms.html

 

I found this one in TX. http://uaspergers.blogspot.com/2012/03/texas-autism-support-at-midwestern.html

 

ETA:  I read further and that one was canceled, but I found this one:

 

Unfortunately, the program at Midwestern was eliminated due to lack of funding (a least a year ago--maybe two).

 

However, the Burkhart Center for Austism at Texas Tech (Lubbock) received a grant to create a support program primarily for Tech students on the autism spectrum. (Students with certain other types of disabilities are also included.)

 

The program is called Project CASE. (The local community college--South Plains--is also included in the grant.)

 

For more information, contact Dr. DeAnn Lechtenberger, Research Assistant Professor and Director of Technical Assistance and Community Outreach for the Burkhart Center, College of Education, Texas Tech University, (806) 742-1997, 324 or deann.lechtenberger@ttu.edu.

http://today.ttu.edu/2011/09/1-1-million-grant-to-help-students-with-developmental-disabilities/

 

[Pen]

Maybe you all need to look at what her goals are for after college?

Maybe she will need a secure niche where she is not rattled by things too much ?

And maybe something in languages would be better than STEM area for her and let her do what she loves more than what she thinks she "should" do?

If one could figure out the bigger goal, then maybe the college choice would become more obvious?

 

 

Maybe she is not ready, in fact, and needs to defer admission to the best of the current options and take a year to sort things out better?

[Catherine]

Just chiming in to say that ITA with others who've pointed out that a straight behavioral approach is not likely to work in this situation, mostly because it sounds like your daughter will not respond like a "normal" kid would to those approaches, for whatever reason. You've gotten some wonderful advice here. But I want to specifically support you in pursuing what is needed to help your daughter. My son, who is not on the spectrum, but nevertheless has struggled a lot at times with similar tasks, initiating big tasks for example, has managed at college reasonably well. But the application process was a nightmare because of his lack of initiative and seeming interest. He has been fine now that he's settled in, but he showed an almost total lack of interest in the application process, and I questioned his interest in college. For him, and maybe your daughter also? starting things can be overwhelming.