s/o Those of you that think gas prices should equal Europe's

[Haiku]

 suggest speed cameras and they will all jump on us Aussies as not understanding freedom.

 

We have red-light cameras in out city, and they are a topic of contention. The objections are not about freedom. They are about the fact that they are run by a private company that profits by giving out as many tickets as possible but doesn't regularly maintain the cameras, so their calibrations become less accurate over time. The other problem is that, when we are accused of a crime, we have a right to confront our accuser. That is not the case with the speed cameras. The only way to dispute a ticket is through a liaison at the sheriff's office, not in a court of law, and there is no way to directly confront the accuser (the company that runs the cameras). Plus, the fee to process the dispute is higher than the ticket, so even if you win, you lose.

[Rosie_0801]

We have red-light cameras in out city, and they are a topic of contention. The objections are not about freedom. They are about the fact that they are run by a private company that profits by giving out as many tickets as possible but doesn't regularly maintain the cameras, so their calibrations become less accurate over time. The other problem is that, when we are accused of a crime, we have a right to confront our accuser. That is not the case with the speed cameras. The only way to dispute a ticket is through a liaison at the sheriff's office, not in a court of law, and there is no way to directly confront the accuser (the company that runs the cameras). Plus, the fee to process the dispute is higher than the ticket, so even if you win, you lose.

 

That's a crappy arrangement.

[poppy]

What happens if you call in that someone is speeding? I'm intrigued. Do they take your word for it and fine the person? Do they send a cruiser speeding out to catch the offender? 

 

I once saw an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where dimwitted Gomer Pyle called "Citizens Arrest!!" for someone doing an illegal u-turn. Even in that context the police didn't take it seriously.

 

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

What happens if you call in that someone is speeding? I'm intrigued. Do they take your word for it and fine the person? Do they send a cruiser speeding out to catch the offender? 

 

I once saw an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where dimwitted Gomer Pyle called "Citizens Arrest!!" for someone doing an illegal u-turn. Even in that context the police didn't take it seriously.

My brother was once dobbed in for hoon driving. He was revving his car up and spinning the wheels in a residential area.

 

The police came round to my mother's house ( where my brother was)  felt the top of the bonnet of the car (still warm) and asked him if he was hoon driving. He admitted he did so they fined him. 

[poppy]

And kind of an aside, Jay-Z is not a good example of a person who are lionized despite being a criminal.  He grew up in poverty in a terribly scary neighborhood, dabbled in crime, then rose up from his bootstraps to build a 20 year career in the arts.   If you know anything about rap at all, you know he is incredibly skilled, and his not a thug at all.  Pick a different rapper, or better yet, pick a football player ----- someone whose crimes happened while at the height of wealth and power.  Like the Steelers quarterback/rapist.

[unsinkable]

And kind of an aside, Jay-Z is not a good example of a person who are lionized despite being a criminal. He grew up in poverty in a terribly scary neighborhood, dabbled in crime, then rose up from his bootstraps to build a 20 year career in the arts. If you know anything about rap at all, you know he is incredibly skilled, and his not a thug at all. Pick a different rapper, or better yet, pick a football player ----- someone whose crimes happened while at the height of wealth and power. Like the Steelers quarterback/rapist.

He was a crack cocaine dealer. That's not dabbling.

 

From Vanity Fair:

 

Jay tells Robinson that his mother knew he was dealing drugs as a teenager, “but we never really had those conversations. We just pretty much ignored it. But she knew. All the mothers knew. It sounds like ‘How could you let your son . . . ’ but I’m telling you, it was normal.â€

 

Jay’s checkered past taught him a few things that he says will come in handy in his new role as a sports agent: “I know about budgets. I was a drug dealer,†he tells Robinson. “To be in a drug deal, you need to know what you can spend, what you need to re-up. Or if you want to start some sort of barbershop or car wash—those were the businesses back then. Things you can get in easily to get out of [that] life. At some point, you have to have an exit strategy, because your window is very small; you’re going to get locked up or you’re going to die.â€

 

 

Speaking about his childhood, Jay tells Robinson they did the best they could to make ends meet: “We were living in a tough situation, but my mother managed; she juggled. Sometimes we’d pay the light bill, sometimes we paid the phone, sometimes the gas went off. We weren’t starving—we were eating, we were O.K. But it was things like you didn’t want to be embarrassed when you went to school; you didn’t want to have dirty sneakers or wear the same clothes over again.â€

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/10/jay-z-beyonce-blue-ivy-story?mbid=synd_huffpo

[Mrs Mungo]

He was a crack cocaine dealer. That's not dabbling.

I don't disagree. But, Crimson Wife went on to complain about the murder rates. Jay-Z wasn't a murderer, and he pulled himself out of that life. He didn't stay in that life, like many other rappers and sports figures do. Would you be afraid to ride on a train with Jay-Z today?

[Rosie_0801]

What happens if you call in that someone is speeding? I'm intrigued. Do they take your word for it and fine the person? Do they send a cruiser speeding out to catch the offender? 

 

My brother says they will if they are nearby or have nothing much else to do. That's far more likely to be the case in nice, quiet country towns where nothing else is happening and the police are bored. :p Presumably if people here keep calling about the same stretch of road, they'll put in speed cameras until people stop getting caught there, then they'll move them elsewhere.

[poppy]

He was a crack cocaine dealer. That's not dabbling.

 

From Vanity Fair:

 

Jay tells Robinson that his mother knew he was dealing drugs as a teenager, “but we never really had those conversations. We just pretty much ignored it. But she knew. All the mothers knew. It sounds like ‘How could you let your son . . . ’ but I’m telling you, it was normal.â€

 

Jay’s checkered past taught him a few things that he says will come in handy in his new role as a sports agent: “I know about budgets. I was a drug dealer,†he tells Robinson. “To be in a drug deal, you need to know what you can spend, what you need to re-up. Or if you want to start some sort of barbershop or car wash—those were the businesses back then. Things you can get in easily to get out of [that] life. At some point, you have to have an exit strategy, because your window is very small; you’re going to get locked up or you’re going to die.â€

 

 

Speaking about his childhood, Jay tells Robinson they did the best they could to make ends meet: “We were living in a tough situation, but my mother managed; she juggled. Sometimes we’d pay the light bill, sometimes we paid the phone, sometimes the gas went off. We weren’t starving—we were eating, we were O.K. But it was things like you didn’t want to be embarrassed when you went to school; you didn’t want to have dirty sneakers or wear the same clothes over again.â€

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2013/10/jay-z-beyonce-blue-ivy-story?mbid=synd_huffpo

 

Right, he was a teenager. On another thread, people where aghast at the idea that a 16 year old could be in an intimate relationship with a 33 year old, because the judgement level of teens is to be trusted.    Why is this so terribly different? And it was crack, because it was the 80s and in a project in Brooklyn that was famously full of crackheads.  The drugs is much nastier than, say, pot, but so was everything else about that environment.  I don't judge his stupid childhood choice. It's just evidence that even a very smart, artistic kid didn't have much of a chance to avoid the problems of the crack epidemic.

 

 

[Catwoman]

Nope. If that were true walmart wouldn't exist after people learned about the wages their workers make. Taco bell wouldn't exist after people learned their beef is actually "beef." People wouldn't get gadgets after learning about the people that make them committing suicide because their lives are so bad. The orginal push for elctric cars wouldn't havebeen completely shut down by the car companies.

 

I am not not not not NOT holier than thou on this point...which really reinforces my point.... That your point here, is not factual.

 

I like Taco Bell.

 

I don't care what's in the stuff.

 

Supposedly, it's "some kind of meat," and that's good enough for me. :D

 

I don't want the details. If I knew what was really in there, I might never want Taco Bell again, and that would be a sad, sad day. ;)

[Catwoman]

I credit finding this out as ushering out my youth and innocence. Goodbye, hope. Goodbye, dreams. Goodbye optimism, vitality, generousity and innate thirst for knowledge.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Crimson Wife]

Exactly what do you mean when you say, "demographics?" Are you talking about population density or something else?

Cultural demographics. Race/ethnicity, SES, teen pregnancy rate, percentage of children growing up in two-parent homes (whether or not the parents are legally married), etc. Minnesota looks a lot more like Scandinavia in terms of those factors than California does.

[Dory]

I am 'loling' at the incredulity! Things that are so *duh* to people elsewhere in the world...

 

Not even CLOSE to everywhere. Or most places. Barely even "some" places, really.

 

 

 

 

Some areas have speed cameras, but we have a lot more populated land to cover and TONS more people. So, percentage-wise, there are fewer speed cameras.

 

 

Even up here in the North we have speed cameras. Not that is seems to really slow people down. We don't have them on all the rural roads yet but the cops keep a pretty close eye on those.

 

Fuel going up is inevitable. It will happen, but to wish it to be so is unfathomable in my mind. I am privileged enough where I am to be able to spend the money to slowly set us up to be more efficient. We drive an efficient vehicle (Ford Fusion Hybrid was getting 40-50 US mpg while we were down there), we live in a well built, energy efficient house. I grow a lot of our own food. We live an hours drive away from the nearest largish shopping area, so I try and make lists and go only once a month. I'm grateful that my once a month trip doesn't take the 2-3 days that it used to take my dh's grandfather when he did it with a horse and wagon. New housing doesn't happen quickly. My friends dh had a 1 1/2hr commute to work every day. It took them almost a year of looking to find anything closer to town. Farms are large here. If gas prices go up, a lot of small farmers won't be able to cover the bills. As it is, most the small farmers have second and third jobs to try and cover things enough to keep farming. Alternatives are needed.

[Mrs Mungo]

Cultural demographics. Race/ethnicity, SES, teen pregnancy rate, percentage of children growing up in two-parent homes (whether or not the parents are legally married), etc. Minnesota looks a lot more like Scandinavia in terms of those factors than California does.

The teen pregnancy rate in Scandinavia has everything to do with sex ed and access to birth control.

 

Are you arguing that greater cultural diversity and greater racial diversity naturally lead to higher crime rates?

 

London's racial diversity is pretty close to that of San Francisco's.

 

eta:

Remember, this is the post that started this rabbit trail

I'm all for having better public transportation here but I'm not sure that it's possible for U.S. public transit to ever become as safe as transit in Western Europe and Japan. Those places don't have the same kind of underclass where crime is glamorized and drug dealers like Jay-Z are lionized as "heroes".

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

That seems to be the meme going around the liberal blogosphere and certain media outlets. So if that's where you get your news from, that's going to be your perception.

 

LOL.

 

Here's a FOX post AND a NY Times post, which quotes NYPD Commissioner (closet liberal, no doubt) â€œWe’re trying to determine whether or not this is a real phenomenon,†Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said on Friday. “I mean, yes, something like this can happen. But we would like to have people come forward and give us any information they have.† Take your pick of outlets.

[fraidycat]

What I am getting from this thread is that people want the infrastructure of mass public transit improved or to exist where it does not currently. Walkable/ bikeable communities.

 

Agreed.

 

That is not the same as saying "raise gas prices because Americans drive too much."

 

The former may be implied by the latter, but only if one is to read between the lines in that manner based on personal experience and circumstance.

Hence we will continue to speak in circles because we are talking about two different ideas under the guise of one.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Are you arguing that greater cultural diversity and greater racial diversity naturally lead to higher crime rates?

 

 

Well played.   :thumbup1:

[fraidycat]

And wow, I guess I should have kept reading. Crack dealers, murderers, etc. i missed all that.

[Mrs Mungo]

And wow, I guess I should have kept reading. Crack dealers, murderers, etc. i missed all that.

What I'm hearing from some people seems to come down to: "I don't want to ride public transit because there are black people there."

[Dory]

Well sort of.  Part of the reason people don't change their habits is because there are no other options.  But I guess what will ultimately change the habits is probably force (ie. much higher gas prices).

 

I think education has a part to play in change as well. Some people don't change because they are misinformed about their choices, or how those choices might truly affect them and the future. Some people don't change because they simply can't see how. It's hard for some people to do something different if no one has ever shown them how to do it. Force might be necessary for a good chunk of people, but for many it would just cause panic because they don't see a way out.

[Dory]

Well maybe.  I seriously don't see alternatives to driving a car, for example.  I know very well what is out there as an alternative. 

 

True, that would be the same for us. Although there is an itty bitty town close enough that I could possibly bike there and back. But it would be a lot of gravel roads to bike on. Around here though I see a lot of people driving pretty inefficient vehicles that they don't really need. I can understand having a large truck if you actually need it (and around here some honestly do), but there are a lot of fancy, giant pickups for people who live in the middle of town here or larger than necessary trucks for some of us country dwellers. I mentioned fuel economy to one friend and she laughed at me and said that no car really saves that much of fuel so what's the point in buying a smaller or more efficient vehicle, it's just a sales gimmick. She doesn't believe me that our car gets as good of economy as it does. Up here, solar power isn't enough for a house, so people immediately shrug it off. We are going towards just some solar (not going for anything big), some geothermal, and some water powered. None of those on their own would cover what we need, but all of them in a small way combined come pretty close to covering it.

[Mrs Mungo]

That isn't how I feel.

 

And I'm not saying everyone feels that way. But, fear of the unknown or fear of "the other" (whatever that "other" might be) seems to be a major factor in reasons people are arguing against public transit.

 

 

Well maybe.  I seriously don't see alternatives to driving a car, for example.  I know very well what is out there as an alternative.

I don't think arguing that there is nothing much viable available to you *now* in terms of public transit is at all a good argument against investing in more/better public transit.

[LibraryLover]

Cultural demographics. Race/ethnicity, SES, teen pregnancy rate, percentage of children growing up in two-parent homes (whether or not the parents are legally married), etc

 

The teen pregnancy rate in CA is dropping like crazy. I've read 50-60% reduction. The pregnancy rate is highest among the poorest; you can see that on the map.   If we could get a handle on social issues, like poverty, without blaming the poor for being poor, we could change things. Instead, we judge, shame, and blame...and then we're afraid to share a train or bus with people who look/are poor.

 

An attitude change on that would help.

[Crimson Wife]

Are you arguing that greater cultural diversity and greater racial diversity naturally lead to higher crime rates?

Not at all. Most racial minorities are perfectly law-abiding citizens and, in fact, are at greater risk than I am of being victimized by crime. Give me Cliff and Clair Huxtable as neighbors any day of the week over a Jesse Pinkman (meth cook on "Breaking Bad").

 

Racial/ethnic diversity is not the problem. Poverty per se isn't the problem either (plenty of poor people are hard-working, law-abiding citizens and criminals can be quite wealthy). The problem is cultural.

[LibraryLover]

Crime is *not* rampant on BART.  The stats bear that out.

 

There is petty crime (and that is everywhere...including Europe, for goodness sakes); one should be aware of your surroundings, but that goes without saying.  "Crime" tends to be petty- a yanked cellphone, jumping the turn-style, begging.  Not fun, but not violent. One death is terrible/sad/awful but how many more people died in car crashes that day? 

 

We can do better as a nation. We have to do better, and we will do better.  Small changes over time matters. Changing our bad attitudes matters. Lending a hand instead of constantly complaining and judging makes a difference.  Do better.

 

It's not going to harm anything if we start walking and biking more, or thinking about making our next used car purchase an electric one.  They are going to become more available. Lets try to curb the knee -jerk Debbie Downer attitude.

 

[Upward Journey]

Lifestyles evolve.  Look at the standard home size of today compared to when you were a child.  The median home size peaked a couple of years ago (I think) and has started to decline a bit.  I know that near me there are a number of golf course communities that attract retirees.  When we bought our house twenty years ago, the houses in the gated golf club communities were around 2000-2500 square feet.  Ten years ago they grew to 2800-3000 sq ft.  I think retirees realized that they really didn't want to clean all those bathrooms so now the new houses are getting smaller.  Is this asking a retiree to give up his lifestyle?  I think that they are just coming to their senses and are realizing that they don't need that much house and it is nuts to pay for heating and cooling a house you really don't need.

 

Similarly warehouses that were abandoned in urban areas have become trendy apartments.  Things change.  One of my friends sold her house near me and is renting a tiny place in the city where she works in order to forgo the commute.  She gambled that this lifestyle change would improve the quality of her life and it has.  She lives in a historic area and can walk about everywhere.  Crime?  Yes, there is more in her new neighborhood but she is taking the risk for what she sees as a better life for a single woman.  This was not forced.  It was a conscious change.  And I don't think she is alone.  Look at all  of the refurbished downtown areas in cities large and small.  Lots of people are questioning the time they waste in a long commute--let alone the money spent on fuel.

 

I don't see life as static.  Natural resources are not infinite.  All of us have a finite amount of money in our wallets and a finite amount of time in our days so we all get to decide how to spend it.  When commodity prices rise, I guess you could say that change is being forced upon you.  For example, if Congress doesn't get it together on the Farm Bill, milk supports are going away and we will all be paying $7 a gallon for milk.  So we all will have to decide if we are going to consume as much dairy or if we are going to move funds from one budget line to another.  A lot of people don't like government intervention so I suppose they are cheering the end of dairy support.

 

I'm rambling...I hope that I have made some sense.

 

We've made this same choice.  Well not the selling of our house part, but the living in the city center on purpose.  It costs us about the same to rent downtown, where dh can walk to work, as it would to live further out and commute in, either driving and paying to park or driving part way and then taking the transit system in.  So monetarily it's a wash, but time wise it can't be beat.  It's takes him about 5 minutes, literally, plus he's able to come home for an hour in the middle of the day.

 

I do miss having a yard, but not enough to move further out.  We love being able to walk everywhere.  The only driving we have to do is Costco every 2-3 weeks, and really that's not a necessity, because I bought a pull cart for going to the library that I could use for groceries.

[Mrs Mungo]

The problem is cultural.

What "cultural" problem do you believe exists in the US that does NOT exist in Western Europe? Again, London is as racially and culturally diverse as SF. London has its own issues with crime and gangs. They have extremely good public transportation that is heavily used from everyone from commuters to tourists without a second thought.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Not at all. Most racial minorities are perfectly law-abiding citizens and, in fact, are at greater risk than I am of being victimized by crime. Give me Cliff and Clair Huxtable as neighbors any day of the week over a Jesse Pinkman (meth cook on "Breaking Bad").

Ok, well, if the standard is a black lawyer and doctor on tv, that seems perfectly rational. Most minorities....does that mean individuals who bleed and breathe, or is it more of a monolithic whole of sorts, like the Borg?

[Mrs Mungo]

Crime is *not* rampant on BART.

Yeah, I pointed that out. But, it went unanswered. Far more people are accidentally shot by law abiding citizens across the US than are victimized on the BART system each year. At least, that's what the stats I can find say.

[TechWife]

I spent a week in Amsterdam last year. Their primary mode of transportation is by bicycle. The city culture was bicycle-centric prior to WWII, then it gradually became car-centric up until the oil crisis in the 1970's. At that point, with oil prices and automotive fatalities in mind, the city intentionally changed their culture back to being bicycle-centric and it remains so to this day. This is an example of how a large, heavily populated city can change how they do things. It wasn't just a matter of making their city friendly to bicycle traffic, they went a step further and made it un-friendly to car traffic. 

 

Here is a short video that explains a bit about what they did and why they did it: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LibraryLover]

I spent a week in Amsterdam last year. Their primary mode of transportation is by bicycle. The city culture was bicycle-centric prior to WWII, then it gradually became car-centric up until the oil crisis in the 1970's. At that point, with oil prices and automotive fatalities in mind, the city intentionally changed their culture back to being bicycle-centric and it remains so to this day. This is an example of how a large, heavily populated city can change how they do things. It wasn't just a matter of making their city friendly to bicycle traffic, they went a step further and made it un-friendly to car traffic. 

 

Here is a short video that explains a bit about what they did and why they did it: 

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/rn2s6ax_7TM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

Did that embed work? What am I doing wrong if it didn't? 

 

Oh...and Amsterdam is so flat! Lucky them. lol  Jealous. There is a hill in my town I loathe!

[Mrs Mungo]

I spent a week in Amsterdam last year. Their primary mode of transportation is by bicycle. The city culture was bicycle-centric prior to WWII, then it gradually became car-centric up until the oil crisis in the 1970's. At that point, with oil prices and automotive fatalities in mind, the city intentionally changed their culture back to being bicycle-centric and it remains so to this day. This is an example of how a large, heavily populated city can change how they do things. It wasn't just a matter of making their city friendly to bicycle traffic, they went a step further and made it un-friendly to car traffic.

This is an excellent point. When we traveled to Amsterdam from Germany, we stayed in Leiden and took the train into Amsterdam. It was much easier than driving into Amsterdam. Most people take the train, water-taxis, bike (they have bikes to rent everywhere) or walk around town. It's easy to get around.

 

Here is one of the bicycle parking garages in Amsterdam:

 

[LibraryLover]

Ok, well, if the standard is a black lawyer and doctor on tv, that seems perfectly rational. Most minorities....does that mean individuals who bleed and breathe, or is it more of a monolithic whole of sorts, like the Borg?

 

It's OK to be black, but please, act and look white.   You on the bus with the dreads, you must be a drug dealer and you must want to kill me.

[TechWife]

Here's another example from The Netherlands. This town was anticipating a population explosion - from 5,000 to 50,000 within 25 years. This article emphasizes safety and includes a description of building a suburb that encourages bicycle use, and again, discourages automobile use. A pertinent quote: 

 

The new Houten was designed with two separate transportation networks. The backbone of the community is a network of linear parks and paths for cyclists and pedestrians, all of which converge on that compact town center and train station (and, incidentally, a plaza laid out with the same dimensions as Siena’s Piazza del Campo). Every important building in the city sits along that car-free spine. If you walk or cycle, everything is easy. Everything feels close. Everything feels safe.

The second network, built mostly for cars, does everything it can to stay out of the way. A ring road circles around the edge of town, with access roads twisting inward like broken spokes. You can reach the front door of just about every home in town by car, but if you want to drive there from the train station, you need to wend your way out to the ring road, head all the way around the edge of the city, and drive back in again.

Where bicycles and cars do share roads, signs, and red asphalt make it clear that cyclists have priority. It is common to see cars inching along behind gaggles of seniors on two wheels.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

NYC has a fledgling bike share program. I would suspect any real change to gas consumption will be bottom-up, starting with cities, not top-down from the fractured fed, which formerly did the big things, like the interstate system. Big players will hold more sway, as California did when upping (a bit) CAFE standards started nudging Detroit to retool...a little....just because that market is so big.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

It's OK to be black, but please, act and look white. You on the bus with the dreads, you must be a drug dealer and you must want to kill me.

No, silly, the mom in the hijab wants to kill you. Didn't you get that memo?

[Dory]

But why would you bike to itty bitty town?  I live in a city.  I still could not live pleasantly without a car.  Meaning, I could get the absolute most basic stuff done without a car (which would involve calling cabs and taking buses so probably I would not save money anyway).  But then my kids would not get to their extra curricular stuff (which is all nearby, but still too far too walk).  Which given that really is their sort of life line to the outside world since they don't go to school, I wouldn't feel right about them not having that.  KWIM?

 

I seriously do not drive much.  I've had my car for 14 years and it has less than 60,000 miles on it.  And DH and I shared that car for some years when we were first married. 

 

When I was a little kid we lived in town for a few years. My mom used to put the three toddlers in the bike cart and us older 4 rode our own bikes and we biked to get lots of things. She would pile some of the groceries in the cart with the toddlers and me and my older brothers would put some on our bikes and we would head home. When I was 7, 8, and 9 we all did a bike ride a couple times in the summer that was a good 10km to a lake to picnic and spend the day there. It was great. I see no problem with bikes, but in the winter time here it would be ridiculous. Also I have more gravel now than my mom was working with and my youngest is not quite strong enough to handle that much riding on gravel.

[Mom0012]

I pay those prices and live in the countryside. I work as an office administrator and spend £35 a week on petrol (small car) for my commute, so about USD 58. One lives with it.

 

L

Interesting. I'm in a rural area in the US and spend about $70/ week driving.

[Mom0012]

For one thing, she probably has a more fuel efficient car. The fuel efficient cars we have here are a joke in comparison to what they have available in Europe.

 

I'm just guessing of course.

But wowsers on spending $70 a week! EEK

I'm sure she does have a more fuel efficient car. I wasn't doubting what she was paying, just thought it interesting that I was paying more even with our lower prices. And my husband works from home. We'd pay another $400/month if he drove to work like he used to.

 

I also didn't realize this thread was 7 pages long!

 

ETA: I drive a minivan, not a Hummer. :)

[TechWife]

My mom used to put the three toddlers in the bike cart and us older 4 rode our own bikes and we biked to get lots of things. She would pile some of the groceries in the cart with the toddlers and me and my older brothers would put some on our bikes and we would head home.

 

Today you could use a Bakfiet - 

 

 

 

I saw people carrying kids, groceries and large dogs in these! I've heard they can be used for moving, you just have to get your friends together! 

[ocelotmom]

I think what I'd personally like would be to see would be increased consumer gas prices subsidizing public/mass transportation, farming, food transportation, infrastructure, and so forth - encouraging more responsible consumer fuel usage while lowering the cost of living. I'm aware that this is probably rather idealistic and not workable, and I'm not sure if it would actually help with the underlying issue.

 

I live in a rural community. The economy is based in the military, agriculture, and mining. I really don't know what this would do to the local economy. A lot of people currently commute to the nearest big city, and some people from the city commute here. I'd probably have a much easier time finding a job, as I have no desire to commute elsewhere, and lots of people commute here from the city in my field. On the other hand, the hospital might not survive if they lose a large portion of their staff who currently commutes.

 

We live 5 miles outside of town. Assuming I had a local commute, increased gas prices would encourage us to be more thoughtful about what we drove and how we arranged trips to town, but it wouldn't actually hurt us if it didn't increase overall COL.

 

We currently have no public/mass transport to the city. I would love that.

 

Simply increasing gas prices across the board would, I expect, really hurt us as far as food prices and so forth go.

[skimomma]

I have to say I am a bit shocked about the idea of SF transit being unsafe.  I have used public transit all over the country and overseas many many times and find the SF system one of the most safe-feeling and comfortable systems I have ever used.  Especially the buses.  I have ridden them alone and late at night without ever feeling unsafe.  I live and grew up in places with no transit so it is not like I am super-savvy or anything.  The very first thing we do when we get to a new city is to check out the public transit.  And then feel envious that we do not have it at home.

 

I also have been to Amsterdam and loved the bike culture.  It never got boring to watch the way people transported kids, cargo, and even furniture on bikes.  It gives me a little shred of hope for the future.  We might all whine and have big tantrums when our SUVs get to expensive to drive but I suspect we will adapt....eventually.

[Joker]

What is SF?

 

San Francisco (at least I think).

 

I just told dh that some here find public transit there unsafe. He grew up there and went to Berkeley. He still has family there. The idea it's unsafe is also confusing to him and his family. He has used it a great deal and often late. When we go for visits we use it, including our dds, and we've never had a single problem.

[Mom0012]

I believe she is only including herself.

So am I. I don't know what my husband currently spends on gas each week, but since he works from home and works long hours, I'm sure it's not as much as I do.

[skimomma]

What is SF?

 

San Francisco.  The one with the "murders" and stuff.  Maybe Jay-Z too....I am a little unclear.....

[TechWife]

Uh yeah and these things cost nearly $4000!  Not for the poor folk. 

 

They cost less than a car. That's when you include up front and maintenance costs. There are also lower cost alternatives to transporting pre-schoolers as well. 

[Matryoshka]

Uh yeah and these things cost nearly $4000!  Not for the poor folk. 

Yeah, but fuel cost = $0.  And still cheaper than the cheapest car I can think of.  And vastly improved cardiovascular health, muscle mass, and bone strength for bonus!

[skimomma]

Uh huh...try driving one through the snow, ice, etc.  Not terribly practical.  I couldn't afford a car AND this $4000 contraption I can only use part of the year.

 

Interesting that you bring that up....  I live in one of the snowiest places in the U.S. and there is a sizable and rapidly-growing segment of the population that bikes (car-free) year-round.  There are special tires and gear for this purpose.  It is not for me...I am a fair-weather biker...but I suspect if I wanted to be mobile and a car was not an option, I would find a way to make it work.  

[TechWife]

Uh huh...try driving one through the snow, ice, etc.  Not terribly practical.  I couldn't afford a car AND this $4000 contraption I can only use part of the year.

 

No problem for the hearty Dutch! They bicycle in Amsterdam year round. The infrastructure supports it. What other choice do you have when you don't have a car? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Photos removed

[ocelotmom]

Interesting that you bring that up....  I live in one of the snowiest places in the U.S. and there is a sizable and rapidly-growing segment of the population that bikes (car-free) year-round.  There are special tires and gear for this purpose.  It is not for me...I am a fair-weather biker...but I suspect if I wanted to be mobile and a car was not an option, I would find a way to make it work.  

 

Yep. My husband bike commuted when we lived in Northern Virginia. Not the snowiest place in the world, but not the least either (especially not that year).

 

Definitely not my thing. I'm a cold-weather wimp. But he did it.

 

I have biked home at 2AM in the middle of a thunderstorm, though.

 

I have another friend who regularly bike commuted year-round... in Austria. Northern Europe is definitely not Temperate Weather Central, but seems to have much more of a walking and biking culture than most of the US despite that.