Did you read this entry on Dave Ramsey's blog?

[Scarlett]

I've noticed that as well, but it seems have become a much stronger trend in the last several years.

 

My family was poor. My dad worked very hard and long hours. We often didn't have enough food to last the week. We lived in a 1 bedroom basement apartment (the 5 of us). My parents taught us to study hard and work hard. That if we were diligent we were more likely to meet our goals than if were were lax.

 

I believe that most people who have achieved financial comfort (no or little debt and some security) work hard. That doesn't mean that poor people don't work hard. But I would never blame those who have worked hard and managed to have a comfortable life for my lack of success in the same. True, it doesn't always work out. But that is no reason to blame those for whom it does work out. Blaming the wealthy for their success and our lack thereof is just warped.

 

Waiting for the flames....

Well color me confused. I don't blame the wealthy for anything. And I don't assume they don't work hard.

[momma2three]

Is it really so weird to have a general idea of what your friends and neighbors earn if you have a good relationship with them, know their jobs (there's usually a fairly narrow band that people in a field earn, based on region and experience), talk about where you go on vacation and how you're going to afford college?  For neighbors you even have the added detail of knowing when they moved to the neighborhood and about how much their house cost at that point.  If I had to, I could probably roughly guess what most of my friends earn, and same for the neighbors that I'm on friendly terms with.  I didn't realize that made me such a terrible person.

 

I think the idea that there are all of these "millionaires next door" is nice, but if you look at the actual numbers, there really aren't that many.  And most of them are pretty elderly at this point, and reached their high earning potential at a point when pensions still existed, the stock market was booming, and major expenses (housing, energy, education, food) were less. 

 

It's also really hard to have this conversation on a diverse message boards, because this country is so regionally fractured when it comes to money and class.  I find it literally laughable to consider an income of $150k a year "rich."  If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure.  But that income wouldn't buy you a single house in my entire town, without a sizable down payment.  But I realize that there are other areas where that income would be doing significantly better than most of your community.  Anywhere you live, though, it's sure as heck not going to buy you a lot of designer clothes.

[Trish]

I find Mr. Ramsey to be a thoroughly repugnant excuse for a human being in many ways, and what is being implied in that blog post just reinforces my view.

 

 

Well bless your heart...

[unsinkable]

Is it really so weird to have a general idea of what your friends and neighbors earn if you have a good relationship with them, know their jobs (there's usually a fairly narrow band that people in a field earn, based on region and experience), talk about where you go on vacation and how you're going to afford college? For neighbors you even have the added detail of knowing when they moved to the neighborhood and about how much their house cost at that point. If I had to, I could probably roughly guess what most of my friends earn, and same for the neighbors that I'm on friendly terms with. I didn't realize that made me such a terrible person.

 

I think the idea that there are all of these "millionaires next door" is nice, but if you look at the actual numbers, there really aren't that many. And most of them are pretty elderly at this point, and reached their high earning potential at a point when pensions still existed, the stock market was booming, and major expenses (housing, energy, education, food) were less.

 

It's also really hard to have this conversation on a diverse message boards, because this country is so regionally fractured when it comes to money and class. I find it literally laughable to consider an income of $150k a year "rich." If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure. But that income wouldn't buy you a single house in my entire town, without a sizable down payment. But I realize that there are other areas where that income would be doing significantly better than most of your community. Anywhere you live, though, it's sure as heck not going to buy you a lot of designer clothes.

Are you saying that 150 million people in the US live at the poverty line?

[TechWife]

Is it really so weird to have a general idea of what your friends and neighbors earn if you have a good relationship with them, know their jobs (there's usually a fairly narrow band that people in a field earn, based on region and experience), talk about where you go on vacation and how you're going to afford college?  For neighbors you even have the added detail of knowing when they moved to the neighborhood and about how much their house cost at that point.  If I had to, I could probably roughly guess what most of my friends earn, and same for the neighbors that I'm on friendly terms with.  I didn't realize that made me such a terrible person.

 

 

 

Nope, it doesn't make you a terrible person at all. I could figure that out about my neighbors as well if I cared to do so. It would be made particularly easy because our county tax records are all online - just enter a name or address and you can get all sorts of info about the property a person owns. It's actually weird - we were in front of our house when they took a picture of it, so there we are - online for the world to see! 

 

The discussion (at least at the beginning), wasn't about what people earn. It was about wealth and the habits of wealthy people. My only point is that to figure out someone's true financial status, you have to know much more than the information you're listing here. You have to know about saving & spending habits, investment habits, charity giving habits, long term financial goals of people, medical expenses, car expenses, college savings, basically anything that can impact income and expenses. Many people live above or below their income level, so housing doesn't tell the entire story, and employment doesn't always, either. 

 

 

I think the idea that there are all of these "millionaires next door" is nice, but if you look at the actual numbers, there really aren't that many.  And most of them are pretty elderly at this point, and reached their high earning potential at a point when pensions still existed, the stock market was booming, and major expenses (housing, energy, education, food) were less.  

I've never really thought about how many "millionaires next door" there are. I do think that a million dollars doesn't go quite as far as it used to, though. Maybe it's not even a valid measure of wealth anymore, IDK. I do think that the goal of lifetime financial stability isn't as unrealistic as it seems at the outset.  Getting there sure has to look different now than it used to, though. 

 

It's also really hard to have this conversation on a diverse message boards, because this country is so regionally fractured when it comes to money and class.  I find it literally laughable to consider an income of $150k a year "rich."  If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure.  But that income wouldn't buy you a single house in my entire town, without a sizable down payment.  But I realize that there are other areas where that income would be doing significantly better than most of your community.  Anywhere you live, though, it's sure as heck not going to buy you a lot of designer clothes.

You are so right about this! My husband and I could have a 5000 square foot home in some areas of the country and a one bedroom apartment in other areas of the country. A lot of big ticket items seem to vary geographically - at least housing and medical costs do. I do think that to have a good discussion, we would have to agree on what a definition of "wealth" is, perhaps without tying it to a specific amount of money. I wonder if it's possible to define wealth in such a way, though. What do you think? 

[unsinkable]

Colour me a nosy Aussie but I read 16 million children live in poverty in the US.

In her thread?

 

I want to know what this statement means:

 

"If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure"

[LucyStoner]

15% of Americans are technically in poverty, including more than 1 in 5 of American children.  Many more live just beyond the poverty line, but still face food, healthcare and other insecurities in meeting their daily needs.  

 

Want sources?  

 

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-245.pdf

[unsinkable]

15% of Americans are technically in poverty, including more than 1 in 5 of American children. Many more live just beyond the poverty line, but still face food and other insecurities in meeting their daily needs.

 

Want sources?

 

http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-245.pdf

 

I don't understand is what this means:

 

"If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure"

[LucyStoner]

I don't understand is what this means:

 

"If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure"

 

I don't either?  I am not that poster, to the best of my knowledge.   :hat:

[momma2three]

In her thread?

 

I want to know what this statement means:

 

"If you average over all 300 million people in the US (half of whom live at the dismally low poverty line), sure"

 

You're right, I should have said "at or near."  

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/12/nearly_half_americans_either_l.html

 

About 97.3 million Americans fall into a low-income category, commonly defined as those earning between 100 and 199 percent of the poverty level, based on a new supplemental measure by the Census Bureau that is designed to provide a fuller picture of poverty. Together with the 49.1 million who fall below the poverty line and are counted as poor, they number 146.4 million, or 48 percent of the U.S. population. That's up by 4 million from 2009, the earliest numbers for the newly developed poverty measure.

 

 

Almost 50% of Americans will receive food stamps, medicaid, or similar programs designed for low-income people.

 

Overall, we're not a country that's doing great financially.  IMO, a lot of this "millionaire next door" stuff (sorry, not allowed to say the word that I'm really thinking) is a way to blame people for a system that doesn't let them get ahead, by literally telling you that "secretly, everyone else is doing better than you are... you just should give up those lattes.  Oh, and shouldn't have gotten cancer, either."

[SKL]

IMO, a lot of this "millionaire next door" stuff (sorry, not allowed to say the word that I'm really thinking) is a way to blame people for a system that doesn't let them get ahead, by literally telling you that "secretly, everyone else is doing better than you are...."

 

Really???

 

WHY is every stated piece of information a slam against somebody?

[SKL]

Wait - did someone just say half of Americans' income is below median?  I am shocked!!

[momma2three]

Is she saying it's a slam ? Or just that it's incorrect.

 

I wouldn't say it's a slam... I think it's kind of propaganda.  I think it's the kind of thing that people desperately want to believe, because they want to believe that they can get ahead just by working hard, even though the facts do not actually back that up in any way (see the social mobility link posted earlier).  But I absolutely think that anyone who says "ALL of the rich people I know live incredibly frugal lives and none of them have nice houses or nice cars or clothes" either doesn't know very many rich people, or we're using different definitions of rich.

[unsinkable]

Momma2three, thank you for the additional information.

[Laura Corin]

Oh , I forgot one. Laura -- your stat on American mobility is an eye opener. 

 

I've been thinking about this since I posted.  I think the UK and the US, between them, have everything to promote social mobility.  It's just that it's shared out between the two countries and other factors stymie the advantages.  Off the top of my head:

 

UK: still too much stress on background, accent, where you went to school; long legacy of the poor management of industrial collapse in the Eighties; a tendency to cut down those who succeed.  But - universal healthcare, cheap university education and relatively generous social support, so people who are unfortunate don't go so low that they cannot claw their way back, if they have the character resources.

 

US: much more willing to accept people for who they are, not for what their background is, plus a tradition of entrepreneurship and a value placed on success.  But - expensive university education, patchy health care and meagre social support, all of which can knock people down for generations, character resources or no.

 

I'm happy to be put right if this is wide of the mark.  I was just musing.

 

I'm reminded of the Jane Austen quotation, when one of the heroines is trying to work out which of two men is telling the truth:

 

Take your choice, but you must be satisfied with only one. There is but such a quantity of merit between them; just enough to make one good sort of man

 

L

[Guest]

Maybe...ah, well. Never mind. 

[LucyStoner]

And here we go again.  

[unsinkable]

Maybe...ah, well. Never mind.

I know, right?

[Scarlett]

Well, all I can say is there must be a Culture of Laziness if you have So Many Poor People. Dave Ramsey is right. I'm gonna quit watching Homeland and become my own secret millionaire! After all, the only thing in my way is laziness plus (childcare costs, out of the workforce 16 years, chronic health problems, casualisation of the workforce, sky high rents ). And if I can do it, anyone can!

 

(Actually, I'd just like to say, to save anyone looking it up for fun, that we have zero debt. Yet not wealthy. Yet zero debt.)

 

 

Same here....well, we have a bit fo debt.  It is less than what a new car would cost, but it seems overwhelming to me because I hate debt.  But almost no debt feels good even though....or maybe because we aren't wealthy. 

[Guest]

I wouldn't say it's a slam... I think it's kind of propaganda.  I think it's the kind of thing that people desperately want to believe, because they want to believe that they can get ahead just by working hard, even though the facts do not actually back that up in any way (see the social mobility link posted earlier).  But I absolutely think that anyone who says "ALL of the rich people I know live incredibly frugal lives and none of them have nice houses or nice cars or clothes" either doesn't know very many rich people, or we're using different definitions of rich.

 

I think that is a big part of the problem. Even in the original blog post, "poor" and "wealthy" are not quantified, so in this thread, you see a lot of different reactions on what those words mean. 

 

I mean, there's a big difference if we're talking WEALTHY, like the CEO of Oracle, or if we mean Wealthy like the guy who owns several office centers in town. Your garden-variety millionaire with some substantial assets and little or no debt.  There's a big difference if we're talking POOR, like a family living in a cardboard box behind the train station, or we mean working-poor, like a family living in sub-standard housing in an undesirable part of town. 

 

I do agree that people who tend towards wealth and people who tend towards poverty do, in general, cultivate different habits. People who tend towards wealth, in general, do tend to do things that make success more likely. People who tend towards poverty, in general, do tend to do things that make success less likely. Of course, there is no recipe. Of course you can't just listen to more audiobooks and eat better and Voila! Magically money rains down!  :rolleyes: Of course extenuating circumstances can happen that change your options. Of course! But I will say I have seen examples of people IRL who are constantly trapped in a never-get-ahead loop that is largely because they do things that do not make sense.

 

Doesn't mean every person who struggles to make a financially secure life is doing things that don't make sense. But I will say that I have seen it. 

[Alessandra]

I've been thinking about this since I posted.  I think the UK and the US, between them, have everything to promote social mobility.  It's just that it's shared out between the two countries and other factors stymie the advantages.  Off the top of my head:

 

UK: still too much stress on background, accent, where you went to school; long legacy of the poor management of industrial collapse in the Eighties; a tendency to cut down those who succeed.  But - universal healthcare, cheap university education and relatively generous social support, so people who are unfortunate don't go so low that they cannot claw their way back, if they have the character resources.

 

US: much more willing to accept people for who they are, not for what their background is, plus a tradition of entrepreneurship and a value placed on success.  But - expensive university education, patchy health care and meagre social support, all of which can knock people down for generations, character resources or no.

 

I'm happy to be put right if this is wide of the mark.  I was just musing.

 

I'm reminded of the Jane Austen quotation, when one of the heroines is trying to work out which of two men is telling the truth:

 

Take your choice, but you must be satisfied with only one. There is but such a quantity of merit between them; just enough to make one good sort of man

 

L

 Very well put, imo.

[Guest]

Good habits help ev eryone, the poor included,

 

I think what helps more is having an attitude of 'There but for the grace of God go I.'

 

It's not a level playing field out there and luck has more of a role in where we end up on the ladder than most of us like to believe.

I do agree with that. 

 

Although, personally I don't like that saying - There but for the grace of God go I - because I think God has even less to do with it than luck!  :leaving:  

[SKL]

 But I absolutely think that anyone who says "ALL of the rich people I know live incredibly frugal lives and none of them have nice houses or nice cars or clothes" either doesn't know very many rich people, or we're using different definitions of rich.

 

If this is how you interpreted what I wrote, there is a huge disconnect between my expression and your comprehension.  I am certain I never referred to my high-income / wealthy friends as being "incredibly frugal" and lacking anything "nice."

[Wheres Toto]

Found this linked on Facebook this morning.  Seems relevant to the discussion.

 

 

[Guest]

Found this linked on Facebook this morning.  Seems relevant to the discussion.

I agree that it is relevant to the discussion. But it also highlights the link between poor habits and outlook with poor results. The author of that article says more than once that the poor expects to continue to be poor. 

 

 

I make a lot of poor financial decisions. None of them matter, in the long term. I will never not be poor, so what does it matter if I don't pay a thing and a half this week instead of just one thing?

 

I think this outlook matters. 

 

I was born poor. I grew up poor. But it burned me in the motivating way. I didn't shrug and say it didn't matter, I would just agree to remain poor, since my family was poor and poor people were interwoven in my family. I had no guarantees that I would get out of sub-standard living, but I was gonna freakin' try. I do think luck has played many roles all along. I have had many lucky breaks. But I'm not gonna lie. I did some smart things, too.  Looking back, I applied for jobs that I had no "right" to hold. I went to my job interview at a law firm in a dress I got at Goodwill. In some respects, I got lucky - I got a good job as a young person with no higher education. But if I had shrugged and said, "Oh, I'm poor, my hair is ugly and I don't have a dress; nobody can buy me a trip to the hair salon and I don't have nice shoes anyway, so I might as well not apply for any job except toothpaste-cap-screwer at the factory..."? Definitely couldn't have moved ahead in life that way. 

[SKL]

I agree with Quill.  I was also born poor, but my parents did not ask me to accept that as my destiny.  My mom did try to convince me that being debt-free was a complete pipe dream (especially considering that I borrowed student loans to finance 9 years of college / grad school).  I did not accept this.  Turns out I was right to not accept it.

 

I am afraid to say some of my other thoughts because someone will read it as "poor-shaming."  Some things do jump out at me, but I assume they will jump out at everyone else too.

 

I noticed that, unless she has an editor, she is an extremely good writer.  She should be able to get a good job using her intellectual skills.  I hope someone she trusts is willing to counsel and encourage her to make that happen.  On the positive side, she is getting an education, so I'm not sure she really means it when she says she expects to always be poor.

[LucyStoner]

Energy and enthusiasm are resources. Just like anything else. Some people have them and some people don't. Depression is a real thing. Lethargy from low quality food is real. Inertia is real.

 

An Indigo Girls song I loved goes something like this:

 

All of of my days have been mispent, the stuffings out the sofa and the antenna's bent. Inside my heart's busting out at the seams, the work of the impossible American Dream. I got a job at the grocery store, a few bucks an hour and not much more. The world comes in just to take things away...

 

A long time ago I was nobody's fool, two jobs and showing up for school. Guess it comes apart so little by little. You don't know you're there till you're stuck in the middle.

 

I try not to care. I would lose my mind. Running round the same things time after time. Only two things bound to soothe my soul. Cold beer and remote control.

 

---

 

I didn't watch TV (still don't very much) and I didn't drink at all then. I do not like much beer even. But even then, when I was the college kid with two (three) jobs and showing up for school I knew very well that I could be in exactly this situation. Some days I would get up and just want to head right back to bed. Some classes I wanted to walk out and laugh at the bs of it all. Some jobs I would get so sick with stress and anger as my reason to quit when people were obnoxious or out of line but I didn't feel I could quit because I needed the money, not just for me but because at 19 I was supporting my brother and helping my mother. One quarter of college, I did say "screw it" and dropped out. But most days I got up and went to work. Most quarters I finished on the deans list rather than with a paper to drop all my classes. Most days I found what I needed to get up and go. I stayed busy with friends and volunteering. I fell in love and married someone who believed (still does, despite ample evidence to the contrary) that I shine like a star and am brilliant even when I don't see it. Someone who invested his energy in me when I was all but tapped. I channeled my addictive behaviors into things that didn't utterly destroy me by the time I was ready to address the addictive behaviors all together.

 

I am fortunate. I am blessed. I am, dare I say it, lucky. I got up more often than not. I stayed with it more often than not. This is in part because I am strong and made "the right choices" but also in large part it is because I was fortunate enough to have the energy and mental resources and access to healthcare to keep going. For a long time I thought all of my PTSD was tied to being sexually assaulted. Seems reasonable, right? I came to realize as I was healing from that that it had a lot of facets and that sheer poverty and the fear that poverty brought me was a large source of those symptoms in my life.

 

Maybe it is messy and gray and ugly to admit this but there are times when poverty won't just bear down on you. There are times when it breaks you. When the strength it gives you has no bearing on how to get out, only on how to go on and stay alive. For those who have been poor or low income or impoverished and it never got that way for you, that is awesome and amazing and great. But it does get others in different ways. Believe me, there are those that only get out by a hair and there are many others who don't, even with education and effort. I'd write more, but that's all I can say coherently.

[LucyStoner]

Looking back, I applied for jobs that I had no "right" to hold. I went to my job interview at a law firm in a dress I got at Goodwill. In some respects, I got lucky - I got a good job as a young person with no higher education. But if I had shrugged and said, "Oh, I'm poor, my hair is ugly and I don't have a dress; nobody can buy me a trip to the hair salon and I don't have nice shoes anyway, so I might as well not apply for any job except toothpaste-cap-screwer at the factory..."? Definitely couldn't have moved ahead in life that way.

There are things a used dress doesn't remedy. Did you miss the part about broken dental work? My SIL has a missing front tooth. It was several years before she could get it fixed when the replacement fell out. Few employers are going to hire someone with missing front teeth. Image issues.

[Scarlett]

Found this linked on Facebook this morning. Seems relevant to the discussion.

That was an interesting read. What I found lacking most of all that kept her from getting out of extreme poverty is hope. People need hope.

[Scarlett]

She has a blog too. I bookmarked it to read more later.

 

The thing is she probably will not stay poor because she has an intelligence and drive that getting out needs. For every story like hers is a story where the woman is not as intelligent and surrounded by hopelessness.

[Guest]

There are things a used dress doesn't remedy. Did you miss the part about broken dental work? My SIL has a missing front tooth. It was several years before she could get it fixed when the replacement fell out. Few employers are going to hire someone with missing front teeth. Image issues.

 

I understand that, and yes, I saw the part about dental work. That is why I do say part of it was luck. I have all my teeth. I have a working body and mind. Listen to this: that first job at a law firm? The hiring partner was a...what shall I call him? He liked to be surrounded by young, pretty girls. He never "did" anything to me, but he always made "jokes" like, "I wasn't sure if I was going to hire you until I watched you walk out of the room."  :svengo: So I guess one facet of the luck I enjoyed was that the cream-colored sweater dress from Goodwill made a nice presentation as I walked out. Plus good butt genes. Or whatever. 

 

What I'm saying is, no matter what a person's particular deficits may be, there is still an end-result difference between an attitude that tries and an attitude that quits. 

 

Also, I definitely understand depression well as I have lived with it. I understand staying in a class when you think the prof is full of cr*p, writing an essay for the class that is equally full of cr*p, but you know will earn the A because it's the cr*p the prof spouts. I understand staying in a job with a boss who is the anti-Christ, coming home with a cranium-splitting headache every day, but not quitting because you are dependent on the income and the health care. 

 

The recently-linked article, while interesting, still professes many fallacies. Broccoli is intimidating?  If you have a microwave, you can make broccoli. There are no special spices that are crucial to the success of broccoli. If you have a hot plate, you could make broccoli. If you can buy a burger at Wendy's once in a while to blow off steam, you can go to a thrift store and buy a pan in which to cook broccoli. Need a cheap source of protein? How about a dozen eggs? You can make six very nutritious meals with a $3.00 carton of eggs. 

 

It is ironic that the author of that article will probably not remain poor if she still is at all. 

[SKL]

I understand that, and yes, I saw the part about dental work. That is why I do say part of it was luck. I have all my teeth. I have a working body and mind. Listen to this: that first job at a law firm? The hiring partner was a...what shall I call him? He liked to be surrounded by young, pretty girls. He never "did" anything to me, but he always made "jokes" like, "I wasn't sure if I was going to hire you until I watched you walk out of the room."  :svengo: So I guess one facet of the luck I enjoyed was that the cream-colored sweater dress from Goodwill made a nice presentation as I walked out. Plus good butt genes. Or whatever. 

 

What I'm saying is, no matter what a person's particular deficits may be, there is still an end-result difference between an attitude that tries and an attitude that quits. 

 

Also, I definitely understand depression well as I have lived with it. I understand staying in a class when you think the prof is full of cr*p, writing an essay for the class that is equally full of cr*p, but you know will earn the A because it's the cr*p the prof spouts. I understand staying in a job with a boss who is the anti-Christ, coming home with a cranium-splitting headache every day, but not quitting because you are dependent on the income and the health care. 

 

The recently-linked article, while interesting, still professes many fallacies. Broccoli is intimidating?  If you have a microwave, you can make broccoli. There are no special spices that are crucial to the success of broccoli. If you have a hot plate, you could make broccoli. If you can buy a burger at Wendy's once in a while to blow off steam, you can go to a thrift store and buy a pan in which to cook broccoli. Need a cheap source of protein? How about a dozen eggs? You can make six very nutritious meals with a $3.00 carton of eggs. 

 

It is ironic that the author of that article will probably not remain poor if she still is at all. 

 

Yes - everyone has a balance of strengths and weaknesses, and we can see the author has plenty of strengths.  I do understand that a missing tooth is very unfortunate, but if it were me, I'm pretty sure I'd be saving up my pennies and getting a fake tooth as soon as I could.  (And if it was bad habits that lost me that tooth, as she says, I'd be working on making sure I didn't lose any others.)  Incidentally, my dad, who was illiterate and poor and a dad at 19, had a full set of upper false teeth by his early 20s.  And he was just a factory worker at the time.  It's not impossible to prioritize things that are needed to remove employment barriers.  Not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible.

 

I also have similar experience with obnoxious professors and jobs.  Doesn't everyone?  I was so close to the edge at times, I don't even like to think of those days.  They sucked, but they weren't forever.

 

As for broccoli - I'm glad someone else said it first.  My thought was, we eat broccoli raw around here.

 

But don't get me wrong - I do believe she has struggled and is struggling.  What I don't agree with is that only the chronically poor have these experiences and nobody can rise above them.  Most of us have had times in our lives like what she describes.  Not once did those days make me think, "screw it, I might as well do something self-destructive, my life is gonna suck no matter what."

 

And I do understand depression.  It runs in my family big time.  I happen to be fighting it right now.  It doesn't make me forget my responsibilities.  The fact that my kids need me to do xyz is a great motivator to keep on keepin' on.

[LucyStoner]

Nobody is saying that people can't rise out of poverty.  No one.  Not one single person is saying that.  

[Lisbeth]

Well, I found it interesting and inspiring! I have been needing some inspiration to get my life back on track lately. (Though one does wonder where those statistics came from.)

 

I then looked at the comments above and found them even more interesting.

 

And although I know this is not gonna make me any friends, I'm going to say it:

 

90% of successful people read that list and nodded their heads through most of it. (Granted, not all of it.)

90% of people who feel less successful read that list and said, "what a load of elitist BS."

 

Hmmm.

I agree.

[PeacefulChaos]

I read it.  

Yawn.  I really don't care.  :)

[AMJ]

The first lesson of statistics class: Statistics as reported in articles are MEANINGLESS. They are removed from their context, removed from any description of how they were calculated, and stated in slanted language intended to imply whatever the author wanted.

 

There are no examples here of cause and effect. We aren't told how these figures were calculated, or allowed to examine the sampling procedures, or even the population sampled, to determine if the sampling was representative. The author gives no statement if biases and assumptions made, nor the criteria for defining "wealthy" or "poor" as used in generating the statistics.

 

In short, this is senseless garbage voiced solely to lend nonexistent credence to his own opinions. It's not even scientific enough to be called "junk science".

[AMJ]

Well, I found it interesting and inspiring! I have been needing some inspiration to get my life back on track lately. (Though one does wonder where those statistics came from.)

 

I then looked at the comments above and found them even more interesting.

 

And although I know this is not gonna make me any friends, I'm going to say it:

 

90% of successful people read that list and nodded their heads through most of it. (Granted, not all of it.)

90% of people who feel less successful read that list and said, "what a load of elitist BS."

 

Hmmm.

Just curious: where did you get YOUR statistics? I would truly like to see the raw data and your method of calculation. I'd also like to see your category delimiters (what qualifies as "successful" or "unsuccessful"), your definitions, and the assumptions made in your study.

 

Full disclosure: I have never heard about Dave Ramsey before the discussions here this month. I know nothing about him beyond a quick peek at the post mentioned and the source link he provided in his own post. (I do give him credit for mentioning his source, but the link he provided did not take me to the piece he claims is his source for the clip he re-posted.)

 

My only beef is with the pervasive misuse of statistics in the popular press, careless repeating of misused and misapplied figures, and the tendency of the public to believe without question any numbers they see in print.

[Scarlett]

Just curious: where did you get YOUR statistics? I would truly like to see the raw data and your method of calculation. I'd also like to see your category delimiters (what qualifies as "successful" or "unsuccessful"), your definitions, and the assumptions made in your study.

 

Full disclosure: I have never heard about Dave Ramsey before the discussions here this month. I know nothing about him beyond a quick peek at the post mentioned and the source link he provided in his own post. (I do give him credit for mentioning his source, but the link he provided did not take me to the piece he claims is his source for the clip he re-posted.)

 

My only beef is with the pervasive misuse of statistics in the popular press, careless repeating of misused and misapplied figures, and the tendency of the public to believe without question any numbers they see in print.

 

 

Just a guess, but I think her 'statistics' were tongue in cheek.

[MyThreeSons]

My only beef is with the pervasive misuse of statistics in the popular press, careless repeating of misused and misapplied figures, and the tendency of the public to believe without question any numbers they see in print.

 

But ... but .... but ..... when the "statistics" quoted support my agenda, why should I bother to check them out to see whether they were validly obtained or quoted in context or do anything else to verify them? After all, they sound true to me because they back up what I believe.

[Miss Marple]

But ... but .... but ..... when the "statistics" quoted support my agenda, why should I bother to check them out to see whether they were validly obtained or quoted in context or do anything else to verify them? After all, they sound true to me because they back up what I believe.

Yeah, it's a problem.  It's also a problem when people pull something out of a post on a message board and quote it out of context, refute it, and suddenly it becomes the main point of the first poster.  It's sometimes amazing what people discover they have said or think.

 

Context is important in everything :D

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

Innummeracy.

 

 

[WishboneDawn]

I do happen to have many friends who are in the top earning percentiles, including the top 1%. And when I say many, I'm probably talking over 100 whom I consider good friends or trusted business associates, without actually taking the time to count them. I completely fail to see the correlation between wealth and foolish extravagance. The only person I know who was big on manicures was my ex-secretary who was not and never had been anywhere close to "rich." (Pedicures, I wouldn't know, since I don't examine people's toes nor hang out in spas.)

 

The high-income people I know spend their time working and taking care of their kids and modest homes. Just like most everyday people. They are very down-to-earth. Their neighbors wouldn't know their financial situation other than to surmise it from the fact that one or both spouses is a doctor or well-known lawyer. They wear traditional clothes and nothing about them catches your eye if you don't know them. Same is true of me. I have absolutely nothing to gain by taking on the appearance of a shallow, extravagant "rich person." You can usually find me wearing old jeans and t-shirts, no make-up, driving my 12yo sedan, and overdue for my $12 haircut. My kids also don't go about in fancy getups. How ridiculous.

 

Methinks some people believe everything they see on TV. Very sad.

I've known lis of very well off people as well. Most are pretty decent, hard-working people. There are some flakes though and because of their wealth and the levels of supreme flakiness that wealth can propel them to, they tend to stand out more.

 

But...I do think there are pockets where wealth can insulate a wealthy community and, as a group, they can travel into the realms of foolish extravagance. We're social animals that crave status, it happens. It also happens around here with middle income folks or lower in certain ways. Like the weekend racers or mud runners that put $10,000 engines in their vehicles when they've got a leaky, moldy basement. But they don't stand out nearly as much and they generally can't go to the extreme rich folk can simply because they don't have the resources.

[WishboneDawn]

I have no idea if he is actually wealthy or just living constantly on the edge. But I maintain that living on the edge.....borrowing big and gambling on it to pay off is not truly wealthy.

He ain't wealthy but he's stinking rich. :D

[fairfarmhand]

The underlying implication is that the wealthy are wealthy because of the things they do differently, when in actuality, it's more likely that they *can* do things differently because they are wealthy. 

 

I detest these articles that are supposedly statistically based. I love the comment that says "98% of statistics are made up on the spot". I just read an online article that ranks my current hometown the 10th "most miserable" place to live in America. The questions they asked a few "representative" people are a bunch of hogwash. 

 

Some of the other comments are spot on. These statements are simply too wishy-washy. What does "network" mean to a retail clerk or "poor" person? 

 

As my dh likes to say, "figures lie, and liars figure."

 

You can skew statistics to say whatever you like.

 

Those statistics are like chicken or egg.

[momma2three]

As my dh likes to say, "figures lie, and liars figure."

 

You can skew statistics to say whatever you like.

 

Those statistics are like chicken or egg.

 

That is absolutely the most succinct and perfect way to put it!

[Embassy]

Apparently, Dave Ramsey has written a response to all of the comments received.  It is listed on his blog post:  http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-things-the-rich-do-every-day

[*Lulu*]

Apparently, Dave Ramsey has written a response to all of the comments received. It is listed on his blog post: http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/20-things-the-rich-do-every-day

I actually agree with a good bit of his response. (More than I thought I would.) I didn't read any of the comments about the piece from anywhere but this thread, so I am not sure what the level of vitriol was but it certainly had the potential to be massive.

 

Although, it didn't address the main issues I had with the list.

 

First- correlation does not equal causation.

 

Second- the fact that some items were comparing apples to oranges.

[Pawz4me]

That post is a very good example of one of the things I find so abhorrent about DR.  He starts off with the Bible this, the Bible that and lots of implications about what a good Christian he is.  And then he starts using words and terms like negative, ignorant, attacked, immature, doctrinally shallow, ludicrous, spiritually immature and (perhaps worst of all) grow up.  All referring, of course, to the people who disagreed with his blog post.  He implies that many people who read his blog don't have the capacity to understand.  Nice.  Almost as nice as the (many) times on his radio program when I've heard him directly call people stupid. Not their actions.  Them.

 

And he has the temerity to state that "my team and I are loving teachers" and starts blathering on again about what a good Christian he is.

 

Really?  A Christian uses divisive, insulting words like that simply because people disagreed with a blog post?  A Christian uses those hateful words then calls himself loving?

 

Not the Christians I know.

[Embassy]

Some of the comments are disturbing. Poor people just need to set goals ?!

 

There used to be many more comments.  It appears that only certain comments were allowed to remain.

[Dandelion]

I didn't find his follow-up compelling, and it didn't address my main issues with the original list either. 

 

The experts and bloggers I respect and follow know how to respond to feedback, especially overwhelmingly negative feedback, in a positive way.  They are able to evaluate the feedback on its merits, ignore the vitriol, and respond in a way that lets people know they were heard even if the blogger ultimately does not change his/her position.  And sometimes, they actually do shift their perspective on something or at least allow room for other viewpoints.  When hundreds of people disagree with you, perhaps there's something there that warrants consideration.

 

DR's response just further solidified my negative opinion of him.  It was dismissive and condescending.