Did you read this entry on Dave Ramsey's blog?

[Sun]

The ignorance of that post is kind of staggering. If you're poor, you've got a heck of a lot more to worry about than whether it's your second cousin's birthday today.

 

Also, many of those "habits" are more like cultural norms. As others have said, they're not the causes of wealth.

 

I'm not so impressed with DR.

[mytwomonkeys]

 

Most people I know do not think in survival mode. I certainly understand that some do - so that isn't an all inclusive statement, but IME that is not the normal mindset of low income families at all. They are generous in nature. Here, families share clothes when children have outgrown things. Same with toys. When someone loses a job, friends pitch in to bring food and help out. My community has a ton of fun, it just looks different. We utilize free library programs, 4H classes, church community events, have get togethers with potlucks, utilize parks and bike trails, and the water hose is summer fun. Maybe it is just unique to rural areas, but I do not see anyone in my real life even thinking of themselves as poor or needy or trying to just survive.

[poppy]

Well, I found it interesting and inspiring!  I have been needing some inspiration to get my life back on track lately.  (Though one does wonder where those statistics came from.)

 

I then looked at the comments above and found them even more interesting.

 

And although I know this is not gonna make me any friends, I'm going to say it:

 

90% of successful people read that list and nodded their heads through most of it.  (Granted, not all of it.)

90% of people who feel less successful read that list and said, "what a load of elitist BS."

 

Hmmm.

 

 

In very elementary/simplistic terms, I would say a conservative would like this list and a liberal would not.

I live in outside Boston which is a real concentration of success (as measured in income) and liberalism. That list would get a lot of scorn here. So when you say 90% of successful people would agree with most of it, I can't say that reflects my experience at all.

 

I wonder if you live in a part of the country where the political landscape is a different than here?

[Alessandra]

Dear Dave,

 

You missed a few habits of the wealthy:

 

-- designer clothing

-- designer shoes

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms

-- vacation houses or timeshares

-- vacations

-- luxury cars

-- limousines, owned or rented

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof

-- boats

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding

-- investment accounts

-- stockbrokers

-- insurance agents

-- good healthcare

-- good schools

-- good seats at the opera

 

And in case you need it spelled out -- not all rich people will do/have everything on the list, and poor people may do/have some of the things. But begging, borrowing or stealing the above will not make anyone rich. Thought you'd like to know that acting rich does not guarantee wealth.

[emzhengjiu]

Most people I know do not think in survival mode. I certainly understand that some do - so that isn't an all inclusive statement, but IME that is not the normal mindset of low income families at all. They are generous in nature. Here, families share clothes when children have outgrown things. Same with toys. When someone loses a job, friends pitch in to bring food and help out. My community has a ton of fun, it just looks different. We utilize free library programs, 4H classes, church community events, have get togethers with potlucks, utilize parks and bike trails, and the water hose is summer fun. Maybe it is just unique to rural areas, but I do not see anyone in my real life even thinking of themselves as poor or needy or trying to just survive.

Maybe this is true of your area, but be careful not to generalize.  I know too many people in real life who are struggling in ways your post doesn't address.  When a single mom is working multiple jobs to pay the rent, there's little time left over for much of anything including rest.  I agree mindset / attitude is important, but saying "poor" is a mindset ignores the reality of poverty for many people.

[mytwomonkeys]

Maybe this is true of your area, but be careful not to generalize.  I know too many people in real life who are struggling in ways your post doesn't address.  When a single mom is working multiple jobs to pay the rent, there's little time left over for much of anything including rest.  I agree mindset / attitude is important, but saying "poor" is a mindset ignores the reality of poverty for many people.

well considering i specified this was my experience to my area, i would hardly call that generalizing. there are statistics that show lower income people are more generous and more giving than those with higher incomes, so i believe you should be careful not to assume your real life experience holds more weight than mine.

[mamajudy]

Okay --- help me change this:

 

My husband has Alzheimer's disease. He cannot work. I cannot leave him for long periods of time to work. I make ends meet by teaching at a co-op and tutoring while our youngest ds stays with his Dad.

 

Fifteen years ago, before he got ill, we had no debt -- not even a mortgage. We have been married over 26 years and have never had a car payment. Our family has taken ONE week-long vacation. (Not one per year -- one ever.) Our van has over 200,000 miles on it. We did not squander money, we worked hard. We are wiped out.

 

So, please, come wave your magic America wand and help me change my situation in life. I am ready.

I'm so sorry about your husband. Life can be extremely difficult and unfair. I know what it's like to be a caretaker for someone and not be able to leave them for any length of time. I took care of my father-in-law with ALS for the last years of his life. I know about lifting someone who weighs more than myself, changing adult diapers, and feeding and dressing a grown man who is totally helpless.

 

I also know about financial struggles. I know what it's like to be on food stamps, to have the electricity turned off because we couldn't pay the bill, to drive vehicles with 250,000 miles on them, and never to go an a family vacation. My kids were born and raised in Florida and never went to Disney World.

 

There are no guarantees in life. Sometimes things don't work out. Other times we happen to be in the right place at the right time. But I do know that America has been a blessing to many, many people who came here with nothing and, because of the freedom we enjoy and the opportunities they were given, were able to make something of themselves. I will not apologize for America.

[Dandelion]

I'm not a Dave Ramsey fan.  I haven't read any of his books - the little I've read/heard comes across as patronizing to me. This post is no different.  

 

Generally speaking, I enjoy reading about habits for success.  I think there's immense value in studying how people have achieved certain results, whether financial or otherwise.  There often is a pattern that emerges that you can learn from.  I regularly read blogs and books that deal with habit change, because the older I get, the more I appreciate the critical role habits play in my day to day life as well as my long-term ability to reach my goals.

 

Many of the habits listed in the DR post are actually great habits that many/most of us could agree on. But this list struck me as devoid of context, superficial, and unhelpful.  

[Mergath]

Maybe this is true of your area, but be careful not to generalize.  I know too many people in real life who are struggling in ways your post doesn't address.  When a single mom is working multiple jobs to pay the rent, there's little time left over for much of anything including rest.  I agree mindset / attitude is important, but saying "poor" is a mindset ignores the reality of poverty for many people.

 

Exactly.  Hunger is not a mindset.  Cold is not a mindset.  Sickness is not a mindset.  You can't wish away the most difficult parts of poverty with positive thinking and a good attitude.

[mytwomonkeys]

Exactly.  Hunger is not a mindset.  Cold is not a mindset.  Sickness is not a mindset.  You can't wish away the most difficult parts of poverty with positive thinking and a good attitude.

 

 

To be clear. The people that were polled had TV's. They had some kind of cable or antenna, because they watched Reality TV.  I feel like we are defining poor in this thread as almost homesless. Low income people can have TV's, smart phones, and houses.

[Carrie12345]

To be clear. The people that were polled had TV's. They had some kind of cable or antenna, because they watched Reality TV.  I feel like we are defining poor in this thread as almost homesless. Low income people can have TV's, smart phones, and houses.

It is as if there are two (three?) different conversations going on here.

 

I try not to get TOO personal here, but I will say that dh and I have experienced a very wide range of economic positions both before and after we were married. We're on the upper end now, and I have no trouble admiting that DR influenced some of our more recent decisions. But, the thing is, even if I posted a list of specific things we both did, me at home and him at work, it still wouldn't provide any sort of formula for every person to follow to our exact outcome.

 

It just doesn't work that way. I still believe that what offends one person may motivate another, and what looks impossible to some may just be the ticket for others. But anyone who stops looking, even if through no fault of their own, is going to have a much lower chance of changing their situation.

 

So, if suggestions offend you, or if they haven't worked for you, so be it. I just try to hope that someone may interpret a message differently or find it more relevant so that they can use it in their own life.

[SKL]

Dear Dave,

 

You missed a few habits of the wealthy:

 

-- designer clothing

-- designer shoes

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms

-- vacation houses or timeshares

-- vacations

-- luxury cars

-- limousines, owned or rented

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof

-- boats

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding

-- investment accounts

-- stockbrokers

-- insurance agents

-- good healthcare

-- good schools

-- good seats at the opera

 

And in case you need it spelled out -- not all rich people will do/have everything on the list, and poor people may do/have some of the things. But begging, borrowing or stealing the above will not make anyone rich. Thought you'd like to know that acting rich does not guarantee wealth.

 

Um...

 

-- designer clothing - No

-- designer shoes - No

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms - No

-- vacation houses or timeshares - No

-- vacations - Guilty! But I work every day of my vacations so maybe not...

-- luxury cars - No

-- limousines, owned or rented - No

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof - No

-- boats - No

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding - No, except I did put my kids in riding lessons

-- investment accounts - Yes, I will be 60 when my kids are 20 and I'd like to send them to college and still retire.

-- stockbrokers - If you count the company that sends me the annual statement for my retirement account.

-- insurance agents - Well yeah, is that some kind of problem?  Insurance is the devil now?

-- good healthcare - Not as good as many blue-collar workers have, and who has time to go anyway

-- good schools - Parochial, yep, shame on me, but since they won't accommodate my dd's needs, we may switch to public

-- good seats at the opera - No

Where are you getting all these ideas?  The highly taxed people I know don't have time for all that.  When they aren't working or sleeping, they are usually doing charity work.

[Carrie12345]

Um...

 

-- designer clothing - No

-- designer shoes - No

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms - No

-- vacation houses or timeshares - No

-- vacations - Guilty! But I work every day of my vacations so maybe not...

-- luxury cars - No

-- limousines, owned or rented - No

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof - No

-- boats - No

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding - No, except I did put my kids in riding lessons

-- investment accounts - Yes, I will be 60 when my kids are 20 and I'd like to send them to college and still retire.

-- stockbrokers - If you count the company that sends me the annual statement for my retirement account.

-- insurance agents - Well yeah, is that some kind of problem?  Insurance is the devil now?

-- good healthcare - Not as good as many blue-collar workers have, and who has time to go anyway

-- good schools - Parochial, yep, shame on me, but since they won't accommodate my dd's needs, we may switch to public

-- good seats at the opera - No

Where are you getting all these ideas?  The highly taxed people I know don't have time for all that.  When they aren't working or sleeping, they are usually doing charity work.

It's definitely a much different definition of wealth than I have! Maybe the one-percenters? But that's only, you know, one percent of the population.

[SKL]

Yeah, the TV part of the poll shows that they are not just talking about dirt poor people.

 

And it's true in my experience.  Watching TV is a luxury but not one that the working wealthy partake of much.  And the ones who do are often catching up on the news as they exercise ....

[Joanne]

Well I hope we all agree that hard work is better than the opposite.

 

Pointing out the exceptions and extremes don't disprove the overall realities. I mean, yeah, we could go down his list and say "but look, 3% of poor people eat well and they are still poor! 30% of rich people eat a ton of junk and they are still rich! Screw all that nutrition BS!"

 

You know your series of unfortunate events is not typical. They don't change the fact that in general, everyday people making everyday choices can impact their long-term success. In fact, based on what I've read here, your educational choices did improve your life. The fact that you had a car accident doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea for others to make some of the positive choices you made.

Yes.y series of life events are in the outlier category.

 

The dynamic of the hard work, low pay is not.

 

The list of 20 reinforces the "fat, lazy and stupid" assumption. It also assumes success and stability are formulaic; but in reality it is not.

 

Deciding between your own and your dd's eye care is a quantitatively different LIFE than those who have access to the 20 list.

[mytwomonkeys]

It is as if there are two (three?) different conversations going on here.

 

I try not to get TOO personal here, but I will say that dh and I have experienced a very wide range of economic positions both before and after we were married. We're on the upper end now, and I have no trouble admiting that DR influenced some of our more recent decisions. But, the thing is, even if I posted a list of specific things we both did, me at home and him at work, it still wouldn't provide any sort of formula for every person to follow to our exact outcome.

 

It just doesn't work that way. I still believe that what offends one person may motivate another, and what looks impossible to some may just be the ticket for others. But anyone who stops looking, even if through no fault of their own, is going to have a much lower chance of changing their situation.

 

So, if suggestions offend you, or if they haven't worked for you, so be it. I just try to hope that someone may interpret a message differently or find it more relevant so that they can use it in their own life.

I'm really not even sure what you're talking about honestly. My pointing out that the poll being discussed involves "poor" people that aren't cold, hungry, or homeless isn't me being offended.

[Carrie12345]

I'm really not even sure what you're talking about honestly. My pointing out that the poll being discussed involves "poor" people that aren't cold, hungry, or homeless isn't me being offended.

Sorry. I was just using that as a jumping off point!

[SKL]

The dynamic of the hard work, low pay is not.

 

I would say it's not "hard work, low pay" it's more "low education / experience, low pay."

 

People who work hard all their lives fall all along the income continuum.  Many of the so-called rich have done their time in factories, food service, health care, etc.  Many of the so-called rich have worked multiple jobs for decades at a time.

 

I do realize that the quality of one's education is not always entirely in one's control, but a positive attitude toward lifelong learning AND hard work will have an impact - if not on the current generation, then on the next.

 

I don't really think being "rich" is the goal in the minds of most.  Most of us would be satisfied with a reasonable level of financial security.

[SKL]

In very elementary/simplistic terms, I would say a conservative would like this list and a liberal would not.

I live in outside Boston which is a real concentration of success (as measured in income) and liberalism. That list would get a lot of scorn here. So when you say 90% of successful people would agree with most of it, I can't say that reflects my experience at all.

 

I wonder if you live in a part of the country where the political landscape is a different than here?

 

You are probably more accurate on this than I was.  Either way, people have a mindset going in and it's not going to change.

 

I live in one of the most politically diverse places in the USA.  :)

 

[QueenCat]

I would say it's not "hard work, low pay" it's more "low education / experience, low pay."

 

People who work hard all their lives fall all along the income continuum.  Many of the so-called rich have done their time in factories, food service, health care, etc.  Many of the so-called rich have worked multiple jobs for decades at a time.

 

I do realize that the quality of one's education is not always entirely in one's control, but a positive attitude toward lifelong learning AND hard work will have an impact - if not on the current generation, then on the next.

 

I don't really think being "rich" is the goal in the minds of most.  Most of us would be satisfied with a reasonable level of financial security.

 

Well, Joanne, whom you responded to with this, is highly educated.

[Alessandra]

Um...

 

-- designer clothing - No

-- designer shoes - No

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms - No

-- vacation houses or timeshares - No

-- vacations - Guilty! But I work every day of my vacations so maybe not...

-- luxury cars - No

-- limousines, owned or rented - No

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof - No

-- boats - No

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding - No, except I did put my kids in riding lessons

-- investment accounts - Yes, I will be 60 when my kids are 20 and I'd like to send them to college and still retire.

-- stockbrokers - If you count the company that sends me the annual statement for my retirement account.

-- insurance agents - Well yeah, is that some kind of problem?  Insurance is the devil now?

-- good healthcare - Not as good as many blue-collar workers have, and who has time to go anyway

-- good schools - Parochial, yep, shame on me, but since they won't accommodate my dd's needs, we may switch to public

-- good seats at the opera - No

Where are you getting all these ideas?  The highly taxed people I know don't have time for all that.  When they aren't working or sleeping, they are usually doing charity work.

 

Ideas -- just off the top of my head, no statistics. Mainly a response to the poor-people-have some questionable-habits thoughts, that is to say, rich-people-have-some-questionable-habits. I live in an area with a lot of very conspicuous consumers, so many (but not all) of the above would be fairly ordinary.

 

There are unwise spenders who are rich, just as there are unwise spenders who are poor. 

 

Sorry, if anyone mistook my post. It was meant to be funny, not serious. Oops!

[SKL]

Well, Joanne, whom you responded to with this, is highly educated.

 

Not to make this about Joanne personally, but if I remember correctly, she recently completed training/licensure and is still in the early stages of building up her experience in her current field.  I don't think she's low wage personally, but when anyone is early in their professional career - well, usually - they are not making a ton.  Once proven by experience one's services are valued more highly - in most any field.

 

When I took my first job post-graduation, I was making less than minimum wage if you averaged it out over the hours I worked.  I had 21 years of education (including an MBA and law degree) and a few years of miscellaneous work experience.  After about 3 years of living hand to mouth (with most of my money going to pay student loans), things started to improve.  That's my story, obviously it won't be exactly the same as anyone else's, but education is clearly correlated with income in the long run.

[fraidycat]

Dear Dave,

 

You missed a few habits of the wealthy:

 

-- designer clothing

-- designer shoes

-- houses with 5+ bathrooms

-- vacation houses or timeshares

-- vacations

-- luxury cars

-- limousines, owned or rented

-- private planes, or fractional ownership therof

-- boats

-- sports like tennis, golf, skiing, sailing and horseback riding

-- investment accounts

-- stockbrokers

-- insurance agents

-- good healthcare

-- good schools

-- good seats at the opera

 

And in case you need it spelled out -- not all rich people will do/have everything on the list, and poor people may do/have some of the things. But begging, borrowing or stealing the above will not make anyone rich. Thought you'd like to know that acting rich does not guarantee wealth.

Thinking of the richest person I know here:

 

Designer clothing - if you count Wranglers and cowboy boots as "designer"

Designer shoes - see above

5 bathrooms - nope. Three. And the "house" is actually a double wide trailer that has been added on to over the years.

Vacation houses -well, there is the cabin at the lake, without indoor plumbing

Vacations - maybe 3 that I can think of. He's in his 70's.

Luxury vehicle - Ford truck and horse trailer

Investments - probably, I'm not sure

Good schools - public, my cousins went to school with the rest of us.

Good healthcare - Canadian

Opera - hahaha

Limousines, planes, boats, etc. - hahaha

 

Will give you the shirt off his back. Yep.

Makes several anonymous charitable donations. Yep.

Fills up the back of his truck with dog and cat food, then drops it off at the humane society. Regularly.

 

 

Back to our regular scheduled programming. DR is the LAST person you will find advising anyone to beg, borrow, or steal any of the above to "act wealthy". Quite the opposite, in fact. Beans and rice. Beater cars. Cheapest housing. That's DR's advice.

[LucyStoner]

Plenty of well educated people make low wages. In fact people in the trades that require very little classroom instruction may easily outearn a number of well educated people. Wages are based on things besides education alone and a good education is certainly not a meal ticket anymore- I know more than a few homeless people with advanced degrees. Some labor is very hard work and stressful but requires no education or credentials. Find me a hotel maid who works doubles and compare her exertion to most any white collar job, including my own career before being a homeschooling mom for an autistic child, and I think it's usually true the hotel maid is working harder. I have a friend who is very well paid writing and editing copy for a large national clothing company. She works and does a good job but describes the work as pretty easy for her. Does she work harder than Joanne does? Probably not.

[SKL]

Ideas -- just off the top of my head, no statistics. Mainly a response to the poor-people-have some questionable-habits thoughts, that is to say, rich-people-have-some-questionable-habits. I live in an area with a lot of very conspicuous consumers, so many (but not all) of the above would be fairly ordinary.

 

There are unwise spenders who are rich, just as there are unwise spenders who are poor. 

 

Sorry, if anyone mistook my post. It was meant to be funny, not serious. Oops!

 

Well I would note that the propensity to consume designer duds is certainly not uncommon in what we consider "poor" populations.  Nor are vacations.

[WishboneDawn]

 

Why must every statement by a not-poor person about money be interpreted as a slam on everyone else?

 

 

People here are talking about the post Dave Ramsey, not every not-poor person, choose to put up on his blog and the generalizations that are often made about poor people. You've made several posts accusing folks of making big generalizations that I haven't seen.

 

I wonder if you're not too quick to go on the defensive regarding this subject.

 

Pointing out stereotypes about the poor is not a slam against the rich. IME it's often the middle to low income people I know who are the worst for holding fat to those stereotypes, maybe because it helps them think there's something in what they do that keeps them on the right side of the thin line between making it and poverty.

 

I don't have a lot of time for Dave Ramsey myself. There are people out there who communicate the same message in a clearer fashion without asking for money in a half a dozen different ways. I also have trouble with the claims that he's helped a lot off people. No doubt some have found his advice helpful but it would be interesting to see good statistics on the matter. What percentage of people going through his programs get out of debt? Do they stay out of debt or is the unfortunate comparison one poster here made to the fitness industry a good one and are people getting on his treadmill only to fall off later as so many do when it comes to sort and exercise?

[SKL]

I wonder if you're not too quick to go on the defensive regarding this subject.

 

 

 

Maybe.  I have a bad taste in my mouth from an exchange on here yesterday.  I am frustrated that anyone who suggests that choices impact results is accused of poor-shaming.  Sometimes people are just trying to encourage others or share their own experiences.

 

Choices do impact results.  This is not rocket science.  And it isn't really debatable.  It is not the same as saying that choices always determine results.

 

Some people like information presented in the linked format.  Those who do not like it are free to ignore it.

 

[LucyStoner]

Raise your hand if you aren't seeing people talking about poverty as a slam on rich people? Where, exactly, is this "rich person shaming" going on? I want specific examples as I am not seeing it.

 

Saying that it is hard to be poor and there are many challenges faced by those trying to get out of poverty is not slamming rich people. Saying that sometimes people do all the right stuff and find themselves at or near poverty is not slamming rich people. My previous career brought me in regular personal contact with the poorest and richest people in my area. Most all of my social circle is educated and successful. I don't have an issue with success and daresay my life is a successful one. I have an issue with overly simplified drivel that ignores the complex economic realities most people (well off AND poor) face.

[Renee in NC]

According to Dave Ramsey, I should be wealthy!!!!

 

Too bad I'm not. LOL

[Tammi K]

Just because something is a norm among a specific group doesn't mean it's causative.  You can pick any two groups and find similarities and difference.

There is a subtle (or not so subtle, actually) implication that people are poor because of those things rather than they do those things because they are poor.  Having access to fewer resources would, by necessity, mean that the poor have fewer options and therefore make different choices.

 

[SKL]

This discussion reminds me of two poems I had to read in school, interestingly both by Edward Arlington Robinson:

 

Richard Cory

 

Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,
'Good-morning,' and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich - yes, richer than a king -
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.

 

Miniver Cheevy

By Edwin Arlington Robinson

 

Miniver Cheevy, child of scorn,

   Grew lean while he assailed the seasons;

He wept that he was ever born,

   And he had reasons.

Miniver loved the days of old

   When swords were bright and steeds were prancing;

The vision of a warrior bold

   Would set him dancing.

Miniver sighed for what was not,

   And dreamed, and rested from his labors;

He dreamed of Thebes and Camelot,

   And Priam’s neighbors.

Miniver mourned the ripe renown

   That made so many a name so fragrant;

He mourned Romance, now on the town,

   And Art, a vagrant.

Miniver loved the Medici,

   Albeit he had never seen one;

He would have sinned incessantly

   Could he have been one.

Miniver cursed the commonplace

   And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;

He missed the mediæval grace

   Of iron clothing.

Miniver scorned the gold he sought,

   But sore annoyed was he without it;

Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,

   And thought about it.

Miniver Cheevy, born too late,

   Scratched his head and kept on thinking;

Miniver coughed, and called it fate,

   And kept on drinking.

 

[momma2three]

I don't really get why people are jumping on Allessandra's post?  I think she's mocking Dave's list in the way that many people are, saying that it might actually be because they're rich that they have these things, and not the other way 'round (which is what he's implying.)

 

The two posts attacking her post seem bizarrely defensive about things that weren't said.

[Alenee]

I don't think the list was completely off base. Oversimplified maybe, but not out there, so to speak. I know several very well-off folks who have worked diligently to change their situations and they fit the % listed in the article. People who have literally pulled themselves out of the muck by their own hard-working attitudes but having changed their habits. Habits and attitude CAN change a person's situation. It's easy to point fingers when one hasn't changed their own tune.

[SKL]

With the exception of listening to audiobooks, none of the things on that list requires disposable income.

[mytwomonkeys]

With the exception of listening to audiobooks, none of the things on that list requires disposable income.

Agreed. I just didn't read the list as impossible achievements, and I'm certainly not rich.

 

I also didn't interpret it as if you do these things then you will become rich. I agree the wording and poll were off-base with that implication. But the list itself seemed like attainable habits for anyone.

[Miss Marple]

  But the truth is, working at McDonalds or at a daycare may actually be harder work than being a Vice President of a bank

 

Hmmm...most upper level workers (ie high wage earners) routinely put in far more hours per week than the average day care worker or McDonalds worker.  I know of few people who put in the hours my dh puts in per week.  Also, most of those upper level workers are always on call - day or night.  Few go home and forget about the office.  High wage earners are there because they have made a huge investment in time, education, and other resources.  Sure there are the "rich" who inherited it, but in most cases those people are living off the backs of some relative who made a huge time investment.  Ask anyone who owns their own company....they work that company night and day.

 

And, if you aren't talking about hours being the "harder" part, may I suggest that dealing with people's money (millions at a time) is probably every bit as stressful as taking care of toddlers?  If you look at the health issues caused by stress, most of those are in people who have high stress jobs - high earners/type A personalities.  A physician routinely puts in far more hours than a child care worker and is often dealing with life and death.  Hardly less stressful than a McDonalds job.

 

Really, I think the lack of understanding comes down to not knowing what a bank VP actually does.  When you see him you see him decked out in a fancy suit, eating at a nice restaurant (probably on a business lunch), etc.  You aren't seeing behind the scenes at the nitty gritty of the job.  But if you are familiar with fast food working or child care, you can understand the stresses there.  Don't assume that others have it easier.

 

 

ETA:  just Googled some information about bankers:

Associates generally have a slightly better schedule (emphasis on “slightlyâ€).  Associates might average 80-90 hours per week with a typical weekday schedule being 9:00 am until perhaps 11:00 pm and working either Saturday or Sunday.  Associates on occasion will also find themselves pulling all-nighters.  At the Vice President level, the hours start to improve significantly.  VP’s, if they have to work weekends or late nights, can often do so from home.  Managing Directors have a much more normal work schedule, when they are not traveling.  MD’s tend to come in early (between 7:00 am and 9:00 am) and leave relatively early (6:00 pm - 7:00 pm).  However, MD’s are often on the road, traveling perhaps 3 out of every 5 days on average.

 

 

 

[mytwomonkeys]

And even audiobooks, a lot of people can manage. The library is filled with them.

[beaners]

With the exception of listening to audiobooks, none of the things on that list requires disposable income.

 

How about the waking three hours before work? That's tough to do if you're working two different jobs to pay the bills.  Granted, I've known people who rolled out of bed at noon because they were out drinking the whole night before, which is what the line seems to suggest.  But really, once a week my husband has to be up before 4 to get to work on time.  Would we be better off if he woke up at 1 am instead?  Not likely, since he would have fallen asleep behind the wheel.

[momma2three]

With the exception of listening to audiobooks, none of the things on that list requires disposable income.

 

I would actually posit that audiobooks require a lengthy car commute, which I would actually bet correlates somewhat with income.  Certainly, driving to work at all correlates with higher income (see: http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2008/3/14%20transportation%20puentes/0314_transportation_puentes.pdf).  I can't find any statistics, but in my experience, commute times in rural areas are significantly less than in urban areas, where the wealthy usually travel in from the suburbs and the poor both live and work in the city, relying more on public transportation.

[momma2three]

Hmmm...most upper level workers (ie high wage earners) routinely put in far more hours per week than the average day care worker or McDonalds worker.  I know of few people who put in the hours my dh puts in per week.  Also, most of those upper level workers are always on call - day or night.  Few go home and forget about the office.  High wage earners are there because they have made a huge investment in time, education, and other resources.  Sure there are the "rich" who inherited it, but in most cases those people are living off the backs of some relative who made a huge time investment.  Ask anyone who owns their own company....they work that company night and day.

 

And, if you aren't talking about hours being the "harder" part, may I suggest that dealing with people's money (millions at a time) is probably every bit as stressful as taking care of toddlers?  If you look at the health issues caused by stress, most of those are in people who have high stress jobs - high earners/type A personalities.  A physician routinely puts in far more hours than a child care worker and is often dealing with life and death.  Hardly less stressful than a McDonalds job.

 

Really, I think the lack of understanding comes down to not knowing what a bank VP actually does.  When you see him you see him decked out in a fancy suit, eating at a nice restaurant (probably on a business lunch), etc.  You aren't seeing behind the scenes at the nitty gritty of the job.  But if you are familiar with fast food working or child care, you can understand the stresses there.  Don't assume that others have it easier.

 

Well, my father was a managing director of a bank, and I think he'd be the first to tell you that by far the hardest job he's ever had was working in the kitchen when he was in the army.  Actually, I know it... he talks about it a lot, LOL.  When I hang out with him and his friends, nah, they're not terribly stressed about money.  One of his co-workers lost $500 million in one single day (in the crash of 2007) and ended up losing his job... but got a better one soon thereafter.

[SKL]

Hmmm...most upper level workers (ie high wage earners) routinely put in far more hours per week than the average day care worker or McDonalds worker.  I know of few people who put in the hours my dh puts in per week.  Also, most of those upper level workers are always on call - day or night.  Few go home and forget about the office.  High wage earners are there because they have made a huge investment in time, education, and other resources.  Sure there are the "rich" who inherited it, but in most cases those people are living off the backs of some relative who made a huge time investment.  Ask anyone who owns their own company....they work that company night and day.

 

And, if you aren't talking about hours being the "harder" part, may I suggest that dealing with people's money (millions at a time) is probably every bit as stressful as taking care of toddlers?  If you look at the health issues caused by stress, most of those are in people who have high stress jobs - high earners/type A personalities.  A physician routinely puts in far more hours than a child care worker and is often dealing with life and death.  Hardly less stressful than a McDonalds job.

 

Really, I think the lack of understanding comes down to not knowing what a bank VP actually does.  When you see him you see him decked out in a fancy suit, eating at a nice restaurant (probably on a business lunch), etc.  You aren't seeing behind the scenes at the nitty gritty of the job.  But if you are familiar with fast food working or child care, you can understand the stresses there.  Don't assume that others have it easier.

 

Yeah.  If you could get a glimpse into my life, you would see me working in my bedroom after putting my kids to bed, until I'm falling asleep sitting up (average around 1am).  Then I set my alarm to allow for 2-4 hours of sleep so I can get back to the work and send something out before I have to wake my kids up for school in the morning.  And then I drop my kids off at school and get started on my "regular" work day until I go pick them up from aftercare at 6pm.  Saturdays, I have a nanny come so I can work for part or all of the day, depending on how many deadlines I have.  Sundays, I take my kids to church and drop them at dance, where my sister picks them up so I can work until it's time to tuck them in Sunday night.  Then back to work!  7 days per week.  I have done my share of physical work, and that is also hard.  Hard work is hard work.  Just because I'm usually not sweating, that doesn't mean I have a cushy life.

 

 

[SKL]

And even audiobooks, a lot of people can manage. The library is filled with them.

 

True, but I was thinking that not everyone has the equipment to listen to audiobooks on the way to work.

 

Personally I don't listen to audiobooks because I'd rather blast some badass music in the car . . . .

 

[WishboneDawn]

Maybe. I have a bad taste in my mouth from an exchange on here yesterday. I am frustrated that anyone who suggests that choices impacts results is accused of poor-shaming. Sometimes people are just trying to encourage others or share their own experiences.

 

Choices do impact results. This is not rocket science. And it isn't really debatable. It is not the same as saying that choices always determine results.

 

Some people like information presented in the linked format. Those who do not like it are free to ignore it.

 

I can agree with that. I find these discussions frustrating too. We always seem to get cornered defending extremes when usually the truth is in the middle somewhere.

[Artichoke]

The suggestion seems to be that changing one's habits may change one's financial situation.

 

I think that's often true.

I agree with this but only including the stats for the wealthy habits would have served the same purpose without knocking the poor who are often dealing with overwhelming circumstances such as food deserts, poor school systems, lack of intelligence (some not all), born with FAS, etc.

[Miss Marple]

Well, my father was a managing director of a bank, and I think he'd be the first to tell you that by far the hardest job he's ever had was working in the kitchen when he was in the army.  Actually, I know it... he talks about it a lot, LOL.  When I hang out with him and his friends, nah, they're not terribly stressed about money.  One of his co-workers lost $500 million in one single day (in the crash of 2007) and ended up losing his job... but got a better one soon thereafter.

What one considers "harder" will depend on ones bent.  My dh would say that staying home with the kids and cooking for them would be far harder than what he does as a surgeon, but that's because it's his personality.  Your dad probably is very comfortable with managing millions of dollars but peeling those potatoes might just put him over the edge (probably because it isn't stimulating enough).

 

Assuming that one person has it easier because they dress better, can take fancier vacations, drive a better car, etc. is just faulty.  That person may have huge stress.  Higher income does not alleviate stress.  In my own life I've found it means more stress.  I've been on both ends of the spectrum.

[LucyStoner]

Money may not be required but it sure does facilitate a lot of those choices. Calorie for calorie, sugar and oil is the cheapest way to fill a belly. I exercise a lot harder and longer when I go to a boot camp which costs money. I work out more often when I have a YMCA with fun activity rooms to keep my kids occupied. Again, money. To exercise, I need shoes that will allow the level of motion and jumping I do without damaging my ankles and shins. Shoes that are not free.

 

My mother didn't work out and ate a lot of really crappy quality food. She also walked the car camps with food and help and ran a soup kitchen and sleeping bag drive while she was very low income/poor herself. It would be easy for me to look at my well cared for and fed boys and say my mom should have done better for me and for herself. But unlike my mother, I have all I need to care for my sons and then some. I've never had to tell my kids we were "camping" when we really just had no place besides a 25 year old VW van and a tent to sleep. I've never lined my kids up on the one motel bed and piled clothing on top of the blankets because the heat didn't work in January. I've never had nothing to feed my kids besides pasta and rice and day old pastries. If after needing to do all that and so much more, my mother chose to eat a doughnut instead of a roasted carrot, that was her own prerogative. If she chose to numb her pain and ignore her stresses with crossword puzzles and fluffy mystery reading rather than going for a run or listening to War and Peace, I accept that was the best decision she could make. I could make no better choices for her than she did herself. Get this. People act in their own self interest. That includes people without a lot of zeros in their paychecks. Poverty doesn't mean that people don't get to navigate their own lives and circumstances with their own brains. FWIW- my mother was brilliant. People in much better circumstances would often comment on how smart my mom was. She was an amazing conversationalist. Poverty happens even to very smart people.

[Dandelion]

With a few exceptions, most people in this thread aren't taking issue with the content of the DR post.  Most of the 20 habits listed are good, worthwhile habits that anyone would benefit from implementing.

 

The concern many of us are voicing is with the implied message and tone of the list.  The implied message seems to be "you're poor because you're not doing these things on a daily basis".  The tone feels condescending.  And it's all delivered in a way that doesn't really provide concrete help.  With some more substance, context, and tips on practical application - plus tweaking the tone - the list might actually be helpful.  I don't know who exactly DR's target audience is, but I imagine that his audience wants and needs practical tips on improving their financial situation.  This list isn't it.

 

[SKL]

Well, I look at that list as a "take it or leave it" kind of thing.  I don't think it's a smackdown of anyone's mom.

[Hikin' Mama]

With a few exceptions, most people in this thread aren't taking issue with the content of the DR post. Most of the 20 habits listed are good, worthwhile habits that anyone would benefit from implementing.

 

The concern many of us are voicing is with the implied message and tone of the list. The implied message seems to be "you're poor because you're not doing these things on a daily basis". The tone feels condescending. And it's all delivered in a way that doesn't really provide concrete help. With some more substance, context, and tips on practical application - plus tweaking the tone - the list might actually be helpful. I don't know who exactly DR's target audience is, but I imagine that his audience wants and needs practical tips on improving their financial situation. This list isn't it.

Yes, Dandelion, you hit the nail on the head! And now I'm going to quit checking this thread because I'm sure there is something on that list I should be doing! ;)

[momma2three]

With a few exceptions, most people in this thread aren't taking issue with the content of the DR post.  Most of the 20 habits listed are good, worthwhile habits that anyone would benefit from implementing.

 

The concern many of us are voicing is with the implied message and tone of the list.  The implied message seems to be "you're poor because you're not doing these things on a daily basis".  The tone feels condescending.  And it's all delivered in a way that doesn't really provide concrete help.  With some more substance, context, and tips on practical application - plus tweaking the tone - the list might actually be helpful.  I don't know who exactly DR's target audience is, but I imagine that his audience wants and needs practical tips on improving their financial situation.  This list isn't it.

 

Well said.

 

I think several people are also saying that although he's presenting some sort of case for "A leads to B," with A being the list items and B being prosperity, that in many cases it's actually the other way around.  It can actually be very difficult to exercise without the appropriate level of time, childcare, space, and equipment... and all of those things cost money.  People have already mentioned food desserts.  I mentioned the audiobooks and commute issue (and I'll also say that going to the library can also be problematic for the poor, particularly those in rural areas).