What is best action when child refuses to do any schoolwork?

[Tess in the Burbs]

I have one of those emotional/difficult personality kids.  He gets angry about something and can stew on it for hours.  Then is all nice and sorry.  This morning he decided he didn't want to do school.  He's never liked school, but does well.  He's ahead a grade in several subjects.  But today he didn't want to do it.  I am tired of pushing/cajoling/threatening/punishing/encouraging about schoolwork.  Legally you don't really get to choose kid!  We are very much wanting him to stay home, pick a curriculum and do it.  School isn't an option right now.....but not sure what my options are as he gets bigger and more stubborn about doing his work.  Taking away his fun things doesn't motivate him.  He's willing to forego his video games a month, give up his iPod, give up his toys....he's not motivated by anything.  

 

I didn't feel like fighting so he's raking the neighbor's yard leaves for an hour and then will be coming in to sit and start school.  We suspect he will be going into the evening with his dad today.  

 

But honestly, it's like forcing veggies at dinner....how do I get this kid to just come try?  He's easily frustrated by any new challenging thing.  He had a lot of choice in this year's curriculum so he could take ownership of it.  I'm willing to try most anything to keep him getting an education without the battle.  He'll be 12 end of the year.  I can't force him to do the work.  And he's pushing back more and more.   Obviously he doesn't fear his mother lol!  How will we survive the teen years if he's this stubborn now??

 

What are my options?  public school?  Not sure they could get him to do the work either and dh is still opposed to it.  Co-op classes?  Not sure he would care about pleasing another adult.  He's too young to send off to work a trade.  

 

Any ideas to motivate this kid?  He has a sister a year behind him....so letting him fail puts them together for school.....and he said he didn't care.  Am I just being a pushover?  I was trying not to get angry to get him to do the work.  And usually when you push him he just shuts down.  So give me your best ideas to get a kid to do school work pretty please :-)

[SweetMissMagnolia]

I can relate to some of that-hope someone can give some advice because I need it too

[jenn-]

Does he like swim team?  Do you think his coach would get involved?  Kids in PS sports have report cards submitted to their coaches and can go into academic suspension if they drop so low.  Maybe have him sit on the bench at practice until his work is done.  I did that one with DD at gymnastics when she started to fight me.  She was near hysteric mode when she realized that I really wasn't going to let her go start practice until she finished her work.  She started practice 20 minutes late and she never pulled that one again.

[SKL]

He would not be doing anything fun until he got his act together.  He might be sitting in bed with a book until he got motivated.

 

When in a better mood, ask if he has any suggestions for how the school day could be structured better.  I assume he understands that school is not optional from a legal perspective.  Maybe try a few of his suggestions and see if that improves his attitude.

 

If this went on for a while I'd be saying "I guess you need a life skills curriculum since you won't do academics" and start giving him lots of chores to keep him busy.

[Jenny in Florida]

All I can tell you is what "worked" for my son: I had to get out of the process as much as possible.

 

He was a little older when I finally gave in, but we had been struggling and butting heads for at least two or three years by that point. And I was so frustrated and desperate that I told my husband I was enrolling the kid at the closest public school that would take him the next morning.

 

The three of us talked about it for two days and eventually came up with the following compromise:

 

- We enrolled him in all online courses through our state's virtual school.

- We put in place very clear requirements regarding grades. He had to maintain a GPA of at least B+ with no single course grade lower than a B and be caught up on schoolwork each day.

- We also laid out clear and consistent consequences for dropping grades or falling behind pace. Basically, he had to be finished with the day's work and have acceptable grades before he was allowed to leave the house for any discretionary activities. If he reached Friday afternoon without being caught up and at the required GPA, he was grounded for the weekend.

- My only involvement in schoolwork was working with him each Monday morning to write out his lesson schedule and checking in once or twice each day to make sure he was on pace. Otherwise, I stayed out of it.(Of course, I was available to answer questions if he wanted help. And I maintained required contact with the virtual school teachers. But I interfered as little as possible.)

 

This worked for him because he has extracurricular activities that are extremely important to him, and so he is willing to jump through the hoops necessary to be able to go. We did have to be very, very clear about the definition of "discretionary." For example, while regular dance classes and choir rehearsals can be missed if he's behind, performances and dress rehearsals and anything that would put his ability to perform or compete in immediate jeopardy were usually exempt.

 

Edit: We explained to him, as someone else mentioned, that public and private school students are required to maintain certain grades and behavior in order to participate in school-based sports and extras. We told him that things weren't different just because he was homeschooled. Therefore, falling behind in classes or having unacceptable grades meant sacrificing non-academic stuff. Period. And, since I was no longer doing the grading or setting the pace, there was very little room for argument.

 

Grounding also meant no cell phone, no TV and no computer playtime.

 

It also worked, I think, because it put him in control, which is what a lot of these stalling behaviors are about.

 

He finished the year with excellent grades, and our relationship was improved immeasurably.

 

I'm still mourning a bit the lost classical, personalized education I had dreamed of for him. But, in the end, I believe we made the best choice possible for this young man. And I've very proud of how well he's adjusted to the new challenges and responsibilities.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Does he like swim team?  Do you think his coach would get involved?  Kids in PS sports have report cards submitted to their coaches and can go into academic suspension if they drop so low.  Maybe have him sit on the bench at practice until his work is done.  I did that one with DD at gymnastics when she started to fight me.  She was near hysteric mode when she realized that I really wasn't going to let her go start practice until she finished her work.  She started practice 20 minutes late and she never pulled that one again.

He likes it enough.  It's new and he seems to enjoy it.  I don't have access to the coaches though.  Parents don't get on the pool deck and I don't have his coaches email.  But yes, I could make him go and sit there if he wasn't done with his work.  I don't know how he would react until we tried it.  tomorrow is practice, so I will consider that....and at that point the coach might come out to talk to me lol. 

 

My idea might not be popular, but perhaps a combination of letting him choose what he wants to learn about and rewards (AKA bribes).  Looking at some of what you are using, I might revolt too if I'm being honest.  If he is very bright, some of that looks like it might just be tedious busy work.

Funny thing is....he chose his curriculum this year.  I wanted him to take ownership of things.

 

He would not be doing anything fun until he got his act together.  He might be sitting in bed with a book until he got motivated.

 

When in a better mood, ask if he has any suggestions for how the school day could be structured better.  I assume he understands that school is not optional from a legal perspective.  Maybe try a few of his suggestions and see if that improves his attitude.

 

If this went on for a while I'd be saying "I guess you need a life skills curriculum since you won't do academics" and start giving him lots of chores to keep him busy.

We have considered life skills before.  He's learned to cook and can clean the house on his own.  He does a lot of yard work when the allergies aren't super bad.  He's aware that as he gets older I am open to him doing an apprenticeship to learn a trade since bookwork has never excited him.  I encourage him all the time to find something he really likes and find a way to make it a career.  I think he would prefer to do his own thing in the long run. 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Does he like swim team?  Do you think his coach would get involved?  Kids in PS sports have report cards submitted to their coaches and can go into academic suspension if they drop so low.  Maybe have him sit on the bench at practice until his work is done.  I did that one with DD at gymnastics when she started to fight me.  She was near hysteric mode when she realized that I really wasn't going to let her go start practice until she finished her work.  She started practice 20 minutes late and she never pulled that one again.

 

 

 

 

He likes it enough.  It's new and he seems to enjoy it.  I don't have access to the coaches though.  Parents don't get on the pool deck and I don't have his coaches email.  But yes, I could make him go and sit there if he wasn't done with his work.  I don't know how he would react until we tried it.  tomorrow is practice, so I will consider that....and at that point the coach might come out to talk to me lol. 

 

 

This has the potential to backfire.  "He likes it enough." doesn't sound like he's passionate enough about it to use as a bribe,  He could just say "Meh, it's not worth it."

 

And then you would have a kid who refused to do his work AND figured out how to get around your attempts to make him AND was a couch potato.  The next step is for him to never admit to liking anything, so it can't be used against him.  

[Amy in NH]

I could have written your post.  He sounds exactly like my second son. We were at the same impasse at that age 12 (when the younger siblings started needing more of my attention to their schooling).  He was also ahead in many subjects, and not motivated by any punishment or reward I could offer.  Here's what I decided: 

 

1. He's not going to do the work no matter where he is placed - home/school won't matter. 

2. If I send him to public school he is the type of child who will mix with the "wrong" crowd or at least bring home unwanted social behaviors to his younger siblings.

3. My relationship with him is actually more important than forcing him to do the work.

4. At some point you (general you) cannot force anyone to become educated.  They have to want to take in the knowledge and learn.  It is a personal decision.

 

So, we sat down and had a conversation that went like this:  "Son, I have made you learn enough that you could work at McDonald's for the rest of your life if you so choose.  You are sucking the life out of me with this daily struggle over your schoolwork.  I really want you to learn, but it has to be up to you from now on to become educated.  Figure out what you want to learn and I'll support you 100%.  (But don't think you can sit around the house playing computer games all day or live with me without paying rent when you become an adult.)" 

 

Outcome:  He spent a year learning Mandarin Chinese, reading science fiction/fantasy 4+ hours/day, and playing soccer.  The next year he decided to do math again under my direction, but switched to Italian, and added Ski Team at the local high school, and drumming.  The following year he decided to switch to Japanese (sporadically), added soccer, and he still did math & Ski Team.  This year he is doing math (still a year ahead), Japanese, and started an online college course where he is getting an A-/B+ (and where he has to do a lot of writing).  He plans to do Ski Team again this winter. We have a good relationship.  He plans to not go to college (which kills me because he is brilliant), but wants to get a crummy job in Boston so that he can live in the city.

 

A friend has the same boy.  He ended up going to public school for high school where he picked and chose at what work he would and would not complete.  He didn't graduate because he refused to write his senior essay even though he had an A in the senior English class.  He moved out of the house as soon as he graduated and lives with a friend, is unable to hold down a job, and has cut himself off from his family.  I am so sad for her.  :(

 

I think as homeschooling parents driving the ship, we don't let our kids take enough responsibility to sink or swim.  Motivation comes through self-determination and personal initiative.  It is a big leap of faith to allow your kid to fail, but it is a valuable lesson in itself, particularly for this type of kid.  At least if he fails privately at home it won't be as much of a problem as if he fails publicly at school.  It was/is hard for me to watch him struggle with finding his identity, especially since I am one who wants to push the academic rigor.  I wish he would just listen to me without arguing.  But I don't take it as a personal critique of my parenting/educating skills because my older son is very successful in his first year of university on a large scholarship he got because of my advice.  It's harder if you don't have a success under your belt to offset your trouble with this one.  I would bet that it is not a fault of your parenting that his temperament is the way it is, so don't beat yourself up.  Just be there for him on his terms.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Amy, 

 

thank you for this post.  I know it's his personality.  My other kid has drive for everything she does.  She's not grumpy like my son.  He's just that way.  I love him but I know life has to be on his terms or he won't participate.  

 

I'm going to seriously consider letting him choose his path, even if it's just a few subjects at a time.  Perhaps letting him have full control in academics will help.  It can't hurt at this point.  And he's ahead in so much he has time to just try out new ways of learning.  thank you for sharing!!!

[MrsMe]

I used to make dd just sit.  She couldn't do ANYTHING.  She had to sit on the couch until she cooperated.  I used to make her do chores, but she preferred them to school.  So I made her sit.  But if he's being defiant, I don't think now is the time to let him choose.  I'd let dd choose too, but I certainly wouldn't do it during defiance because it shows they win and what they're doing works.   After a few good days of behavior, then I'd bring up letting him choose as I did this with dd, but I definitely didn't tie the two together.

[bettyandbob]

When my ds was elementary aged he refused school sometimes. Maybe not to the extent you describe. We had a lot of activities he liked. He didn't go to them if work was not done. Sometimes he'd be working in the car while drove and sitting in the car to finish before he could go in to the activity, but he got the work done.

 

I think you have to find the motivator. What does he do when he's not doing school work. Video games aren't that interesting if he will give them up.

 

I think physical activity is good and I think raking leaves is probably the correct response. Pay attention to what happens when he's physically active. Does he become more mentally engaged? Perhaps you and he can do a mile run together before starting school work. If he gets really into swim team great, but if not, maybe you want to find a physically demanding activity that can fill a lot of time for him (rock climbing? parkour?). I think having heavy physical activity helps many children engage mentally in a more focused manner, even with things they don't like.

[Jenny in Florida]

For what it's worth (which may be nothing, since kids are, after all, individuals), we tried the "let him choose" thing, too. In my son's case, it was a dismal failure. If anything, it made him more unhappy and difficult.

 

What I think I finally understand, a year after I "resigned" from being his full-time homeschool teacher, is that this is a kid who craves challenge and validation. He had no interest in doing the curriculum I set out for him, because it didn't feel "real." He had even less motivation to do things on his own, because he had no meaningful way to measure his success.

 

So, it was trial and error, but I think we've found the right approach for him. As I said, he finished last year with very good grades in a public-school-ish but solid curriculum. This year, he began dual enrollment at our local community college (under a special agreement that allowed him to start before his 16th birthday). He's taking three classes and earning A's in two and a B in the third. He's maintaining A's in both of his online high school classes, also. He's engaged in planning his educational path for the next year and plans to transfer to a four-year college after that. I'm still knocking on wood every day, but I do (mostly) feel like he's on track.

[Mom-ninja.]

Lots of physical activity. Lots. He sounds like he has energy to burn. My boys always always feel better and are much happier after physical work. So with that in mind I would *not* tie up his swim team with school work. Keep them separate.

 

In addition to lots of physical activity I agree with letting him take the lead. Let him pursue topics that interest him. Let him come up with projects. He might want to try and build something.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Lots of physical activity. Lots. He sounds like he has energy to burn. My boys always always feel better and are much happier after physical work. So with that in mind I would *not* tie up his swim team with school work. Keep them separate.

 

In addition to lots of physical activity I agree with letting him take the lead. Let him pursue topics that interest him. Let him come up with projects. He might want to try and build something.

Well we tried the build/learn approach before.  He didn't have to do schoolwork as long as he was productive building something.  He built a really cool tent frame out of wood.  After that he went back to doing school work.  

 

We are going to talk this week and set some guidelines about expectations I guess.  See if he's wanting to dump some curriculum or start something more interest led.  We aren't unschoolers at all....but I'm willing to work on some flexibility.  I like the building idea, but last time he was over it after one build. 

[zoobie]

Could he be depressed? ADHD-inattentive type? 

[Amy in NH]

I used to make dd just sit.  She couldn't do ANYTHING.  She had to sit on the couch until she cooperated.  I used to make her do chores, but she preferred them to school.  So I made her sit.  But if he's being defiant, I don't think now is the time to let him choose.  I'd let dd choose too, but I certainly wouldn't do it during defiance because it shows they win and what they're doing works.   After a few good days of behavior, then I'd bring up letting him choose as I did this with dd, but I definitely didn't tie the two together.

 

What you are missing here is that the child has a personality in which every little thing is a struggle and the "defiance" never ends.  Making your child sit for years will not accomplish the educational goals you have set and will only damage your relationship.  My son would rather sit than do the work that I choose for him.  However, now that we have a good relationship he will gladly help with the laundry when I ask instead of giving me a big attitude about it. 

[Corraleno]

I think as homeschooling parents driving the ship, we don't let our kids take enough responsibility to sink or swim.  Motivation comes through self-determination and personal initiative.  It is a big leap of faith to allow your kid to fail, but it is a valuable lesson in itself, particularly for this type of kid.  At least if he fails privately at home it won't be as much of a problem as if he fails publicly at school.  It was/is hard for me to watch him struggle with finding his identity, especially since I am one who wants to push the academic rigor.  I wish he would just listen to me without arguing.  But I don't take it as a personal critique of my parenting/educating skills because my older son is very successful in his first year of university on a large scholarship he got because of my advice.  It's harder if you don't have a success under your belt to offset your trouble with this one.  I would bet that it is not a fault of your parenting that his temperament is the way it is, so don't beat yourself up.  Just be there for him on his terms.

:iagree:

 

I'm going to seriously consider letting him choose his path, even if it's just a few subjects at a time.  Perhaps letting him have full control in academics will help.  It can't hurt at this point.  And he's ahead in so much he has time to just try out new ways of learning.  thank you for sharing!!!

 

I might make math the one mandatory subject (although you could be flexible about the schedule — e.g. 5 lessons/wk, which he could do in 2 or 3 days or spread out throughout the week or whatever), and encourage at least an hour or so of reading per day (his choice of books), and then let him drop the rest of the curriculum-based stuff for now. There are a lot of subjects in your siggie, even if some are just a few minutes/day or a few times/wk; for a kid who hates "schoolwork," it may feel like an awful lot of busywork. Letting him pick the grammar program won't help much if he considers grammar drill boring & pointless, kwim? In that sense it's sort of a false choice — like "would you prefer to have measles or mumps?" 

 

He built a really cool tent frame out of wood.  After that he went back to doing school work.  ... I like the building idea, but last time he was over it after one build. 

 

Interest-led or project-based learning can involve building things, but it could also involve reading about a topic of interest, learning a language, drawing manga, catching & studying lizards or insects, learning to program, making your own chain mail out of pop-tops, learning Tuvan throat singing from youtube videos, etc.  The point, at this age, is to relight the fire (and repair the relationship). Don't get caught up in worrying about whether what he's learning is "academic enough" — the most important thing is to change the idea he has that learning = boring workbooky stuff, and let him figure out that it can be really engaging and interesting and rewarding in its own right. And once your relationship is in a better place, he is more likely to start trusting you and not feeling like he has to resist everything. 

 

He might also need some help finding and faclitating interests, if he's not used to having this kind of freedom. You could make suggestions, or offer to help him locate resources and get materials. So, for example, if he had wanted to continue with the tent thing, you could ask what he wanted to cover it with and help find suitable materials, ask if he wanted to put electricity in it or make furniture for it or use it as a clubhouse, etc. Or maybe he really was just done with it and wanted to move on. Just make it really clear that whatever he chooses will be totally his thing — not a sneaky way to suck him into something you will turn into "school" as soon as he gets going, lol.

 

What does he like to do in his free time? Computers, electronics, board games, lego, comics, nerf battles...?

 

Jackie

[Paige]

My FIL said that with his uncooperative son (in PS way back when), he got him a desk and made him sit at it every day for 3-4 hours and told him that he could do whatever he wanted but that he would be in that chair daily for that amount of time. He recommended that he use the time for his work and then he could have the privileges associated with having good grades. He said his son spent a month or two sleeping and reading comic books, but that eventually he got bored and tired of not being allowed to go anywhere else in his off time and started doing his work.

 

Something like that may work. Make it his problem and not yours. You could require that DS spend however long you think he needs to do his work at the table and be available to help if he asks, but other than that leave him alone. He'd still have all the consequences of not doing his work if he doesn't do it- no video games/no friends over/ working during summer and normal breaks because he;s behind/ or whatever you do/ but you don't have to nag him about it. I may try it with my DS. I was out of town and FIL had stepped in to homeschool a little and he was telling me a little about his experiences with my DS and his. My DS is 12 and can be difficult, but so far he doesn't flat out refuse to work. He just likes to complain. FIL said he did it with his son from about 6th grade- high school but that in high school he had to increase the hours required.

[Corraleno]

My FIL said that with his uncooperative son (in PS way back when), he got him a desk and made him sit at it every day for 3-4 hours and told him that he could do whatever he wanted but that he would be in that chair daily for that amount of time. ...  FIL said he did it with his son from about 6th grade- high school but that in high school he had to increase the hours required.

 

I think whether that would count as a "success" or not depends on what the goal was. If the goal was to force compliance at any cost, then maybe it was a successful tactic. But if the goal is to help a child develop self-motivation and a love of learning, then that tactic may do little more than reinforce the idea that learning is such a tedious and miserable activity that the only reason to do it is to avoid punishment. Then what happens when the kid moves out and the threat of punishment is gone? I've seen that play out in my own family, and the results were not pretty. The parents may have won the battles, but in the end they lost the war.

[Live2Ride]

Well here at our house dad has a saying: "You need to work smarter, not harder". When they dont want to educate themselves, then they are told to do a cleaning item . There is never a shortage of them :) and if they complain or are rude, they'll keep clening. They are normally humbled within a few hours and get back to their studies with a bit more vigor :)

[Live2Ride]

Dp...

[Amy in NH]

 

He might also need some help finding and faclitating interests, if he's not used to having this kind of freedom. You could make suggestions, or offer to help him locate resources and get materials. So, for example, if he had wanted to continue with the tent thing, you could ask what he wanted to cover it with and help find suitable materials, ask if he wanted to put electricity in it or make furniture for it or use it as a clubhouse, etc. Or maybe he really was just done with it and wanted to move on. Just make it really clear that whatever he chooses will be totally his thing — not a sneaky way to suck him into something you will turn into "school" as soon as he gets going, lol.

 

What does he like to do in his free time? Computers, electronics, board games, lego, comics, nerf battles...?

 

:iagree:

Give him a copy of the Pitsco catalog!

[Kel & the Kids]

Wow, my DS sounds just like yours.  I quit last spring and he is enrolled in private school. After 13 years of arguing with him I decided it was my girls' turn for my attention.  I did NOT want him at school since they do barely anything that I *would* call school but my dh told me to think of it as a year of "daycare" for him, which is what I'm doing.  He wouldn't do chores, he was not motivated by loss or reward, he dragged us all down everyday and I just ran out of steam, especially while trying to teach my 3 others who actually wanted to learn.

 

On a positive note, although I expected the worst, DS has really stepped up to the plate!  He takes the public bus to and from school, looks after all his own work (and is getting good grades), has decent kids to hang with at school, is well liked by teachers and kids alike. He is a happy person and willingly does his chores or whatever is asked of him at home. It is coming at great financial cost to our family but so far it's been more than worth it.  I am increasingly astonished. I'm sad he's not really learning anything but let's face it, he wasn't learning here anyway despite having the opportunity to choose what he wanted, online classes, outsourced classes, you name it. 

 

I hope you find something that works for your family! 

 

 

[Tess in the Burbs]

thank you all.  after his hour of exercise he got it done today.  He had an invite but he wasn't done, so his sister went.  But when given the chance to read tonight he opted to just finish it this afternoon before going to his friend's house.  

 

I asked about tomorrow.  He said he's getting up before school hours to rake more leaves.  And will be ready to do school with me later.  I think we are going to drop some subjects and learn them in other ways.  Lots of discussions coming up I guess about what he wants in the future and if he's willing to do the work to get there.  I will admit, it was nice to just do school with my daughter today and get it done without the drama

[msjones]

I'd send him to school.  I've told my boys that if they won't work cooperatively on schoolwork at home, they can't be homeschooled.  

 

If he just won't do it, I'd let him not do it and make other arrangements ASAP.

 

 

[LucyStoner]

Find something he wants to do. Easier said than done but I would let him help pick his curriculum and learning materials.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'd send him to school.  I've told my boys that if they won't work cooperatively on schoolwork at home, they can't be homeschooled.  

 

If he just won't do it, I'd let him not do it and make other arrangements ASAP.

 

 

I do not have a child like this and my oldest is just 10, so I'm sure there are things I haven't considered, but this is what I'd do.  I have already told both girls that they must do school and they can do it at home or GO to school.  They choose home every time.

 

It is too bad he's not into swim team that much, because that would have been the other place I'd go.  Rebecca is very invested in her gymnastics team and it would kill her to miss even one practice.  I did hold her out of practice one day because she was generally awful to Sylvia and not listening and giving an attitude.  I tried all day before pulling the gymnastics card.  She hasn't been like that since.  I also made her write a letter to her coach, explaining why she was gone.

 

(This was not a practice before a meet though.  I don't know what I would have done if it was!  Don't tell.   :huh: )

[SJ.]

I can relate.  We hit our breaking point this year and last week I met with a counselor and enrolled my son in once a week therapy sessions.  

 

At our house my son refuses to do his schoolwork, engages in inappropriate behavior when he knows we are going to do school, doesn't care about any consequences I try to impose.  We also have problems with disrespectful behavior, sibling fighting, and explosive anger.  Frankly it is making my life miserable some days, most days actually.  It is making it difficult to get school done with his brother who tries so hard to stay on task.  It makes it impossible for me to get anything else done.  

 

In our situation I know he will do work if he were enrolled in school but I feel like I would just be avoiding dealing with the underlying problems.  The counselor thinks the underlying problem is anxiety so that is what we will be working on first.

 

I chuckle a little at the suggestions to "make him" do chores or just sit there.  In our house the only way to "make" ds sit somewhere he doesn't want to be would be to utilize duct tape.

 

 

[City Mouse]

My oldest had a personality like that although she did not school at home. With her, you could not punish or consequence her to get her to do anything. She was/is a stubborn as can be.

I had to find ways to provide incentives for cooperating - things she could earn. The rewards changed with her age, but the general idea stayed the same.

 

Have you tried setting up an incentive program much like you might use a sticker chart for a younger kid?

[Paige]

I think whether that would count as a "success" or not depends on what the goal was. If the goal was to force compliance at any cost, then maybe it was a successful tactic. But if the goal is to help a child develop self-motivation and a love of learning, then that tactic may do little more than reinforce the idea that learning is such a tedious and miserable activity that the only reason to do it is to avoid punishment. Then what happens when the kid moves out and the threat of punishment is gone? I've seen that play out in my own family, and the results were not pretty. The parents may have won the battles, but in the end they lost the war.

I think the success may be in that the young man went from being a D student to a straight A student, was recruited into a specialized military career as an officer, has been married about 30yrs, and retired and is now making money that puts him in the 1% as a VP of some company in a resort like area. Different things work for different people and it all depends on the whys of the behavior. FIL described his son as a very bright kid who was an underachiever and not motivated to take the time to do more than D work. I'm sure that it wouldn't be the solution for everyone but may be something to try for some.

 

My DS is similar. He's bright but not motivated. Letting him pick out his curriculum or what to study has not helped motivate him in any way. He enjoys arguing and so engaging him on his complaints rewards and encourages him to complain more as he likes to debate why he should not be required to do the work he has picked out. We have not tried FIL's idea strictly, but I see the value in it. DS's handwriting and drawing was atrocious until I began requiring him to spend a minimum amount of time on the subject whether he liked to or not. His work, and especially his drawings, have become quite good. More than that, however, DS has become proud of his work and feels good about what he's been doing.

 

And, at some point, kids need to take responsibility for themselves and we need to make their work their problem and not ours. If the kid moves out and reverts to being lazy and unmotivated? It's on him. Parents do their best and give children opportunities to succeed and learn, but as much as we want, we can't make them turn out how we want.

[Donna]

My middle ds was like this. Doing schoolwork was his choice but he was not allowed to do anything fun until it was completed. If he had to stay home from sports or taekwondo, he did. I tried rewards like computer time or video game time and that sometimes worked. I also used positive reinforcement (though it didn't seem to help much...some days he just didn't seem to care).

 

We talked a lot about what he wanted to learn and he had input in some of the things he studied...math and reading were non-negotiable for me. He picked the instrument he wanted to study. He picked the books he wanted to read. I sat with him while he did math if he felt he needed me to. Some days school took hours with him (when it should have taken only about an hour total).

 

He went to school beginning in 7th grade and became much more cooperative about doing his work even taking ownership of his homework and getting it done responsibly. Not sure whether this was due to maturity or having to be accountable to someone other than his mother.

 

A child this stubborn is very difficult especially if there isn't anything they feel they have to "lose."

[Amy in NH]

My DS is similar. He's bright but not motivated. Letting him pick out his curriculum or what to study has not helped motivate him in any way. He enjoys arguing and so engaging him on his complaints rewards and encourages him to complain more as he likes to debate why he should not be required to do the work he has picked out. We have not tried FIL's idea strictly, but I see the value in it. DS's handwriting and drawing was atrocious until I began requiring him to spend a minimum amount of time on the subject whether he liked to or not. His work, and especially his drawings, have become quite good. More than that, however, DS has become proud of his work and feels good about what he's been doing.

 

And, at some point, kids need to take responsibility for themselves and we need to make their work their problem and not ours. If the kid moves out and reverts to being lazy and unmotivated? It's on him. Parents do their best and give children opportunities to succeed and learn, but as much as we want, we can't make them turn out how we want.

 

How old is your son, Paige?

 

[Paige]

How old is your son, Paige?

He's only 12. I know...I'm no expert as he's my oldest. We are figuring things out slowly with trial and error. We tried sending him to school last year because he had been so uncooperative and argumentative at home but it was a disaster. I think it may have worked out better in a different school system or school but for us it made things worse.

[ChristusG]

I've yet to run into this since my oldest is only nine, but in the back of my mind my plan will be that the child will do NOTHING else until the school work is completed. No toys, no sports practices, no games, no TV, no video games, no friends, no activities, no spending money, no nothing. Basically they can stare at the wall. If I need to empty their room of everything but clothing, then that's what I'll have to do. I might would even take it as far as no desserts or treats. You can eat to live, but no "fun" foods. School is not an option.

 

ETA....before I did any of the above I would talk with the child and see whether I thought we needed to change curriculum or whether I thought the child was going to be defiant about any curriculum.

[dancingmama]

We tried it all with D's, we emptied his room, we bribed, we sat until it was done, everything.

 

He made the decision that he wanted to go to school. So we prepped him up ( he was behind and he has lds) and sent him off to school. I was sure it would be a disaster, he would learn nothing, and he'd be kicked our for non-compliance, attitude, etc. 6 weeks until the school year and I have never seen him work so hard. We even made the school put in a behavior chart because of his behavior at home and his diagnosis and he has only had one day where he didn't exceed expectation. He actually loves learning now where he dreaded it before. So, although school is most definitely not the answer for everyone, and i don't know how long this will last, I know we made the right choice giving school a chance. I do think it helps that he has pe the first class of the day and he has recess in the middle. So I would ask him on a day where things are going well and calm and see what he would like if the choice was all his. Perhaps he will have an answer that you haven't thought of yet.

[Amy in NH]

I've yet to run into this since my oldest is only nine, but in the back of my mind my plan will be that the child will do NOTHING else until the school work is completed. No toys, no sports practices, no games, no TV, no video games, no friends, no activities, no spending money, no nothing. Basically they can stare at the wall. If I need to empty their room of everything but clothing, then that's what I'll have to do. I might would even take it as far as no desserts or treats. You can eat to live, but no "fun" foods. School is not an option.

 

ETA....before I did any of the above I would talk with the child and see whether I thought we needed to change curriculum or whether I thought the child was going to be defiant about any curriculum.

 

Don't know about the OP, but my son would rather stare at the wall.  That tells me that some need of his isn't being met, and in this case I'm pretty sure it's self-determination.  What you are suggesting would not accomplish anything other than a daily power struggle leaving me exhausted and him resentful.  Not worth it.

[Amy in NH]

My middle ds was like this. Doing schoolwork was his choice but he was not allowed to do anything fun until it was completed. If he had to stay home from sports or taekwondo, he did. I tried rewards like computer time or video game time and that sometimes worked. I also used positive reinforcement (though it didn't seem to help much...some days he just didn't seem to care).

 

We talked a lot about what he wanted to learn and he had input in some of the things he studied...math and reading were non-negotiable for me. He picked the instrument he wanted to study. He picked the books he wanted to read. I sat with him while he did math if he felt he needed me to. Some days school took hours with him (when it should have taken only about an hour total).

 

He went to school beginning in 7th grade and became much more cooperative about doing his work even taking ownership of his homework and getting it done responsibly. Not sure whether this was due to maturity or having to be accountable to someone other than his mother.

 

A child this stubborn is very difficult especially if there isn't anything they feel they have to "lose."

 

I'm glad that it worked for you.  But you can see that it didn't work that way for Paige, and it certainly had detrimental effects for my poor friend.

 

[Amy in NH]

We have not tried FIL's idea strictly, but I see the value in it.

 

Of course there's value in it.  But there's also value in a Classical Education and trying to do your best work.  However, forcing your ideals onto someone who isn't buying it doesn't work.  Especially as they get older.  You may be able to force compliance through coercion when kids are young, but when they get to be a certain age this approach will backfire with a stubborn kid.

[Trish]

Wow, my DS sounds just like yours.  I quit last spring and he is enrolled in private school. After 13 years of arguing with him I decided it was my girls' turn for my attention.  I did NOT want him at school since they do barely anything that I *would* call school but my dh told me to think of it as a year of "daycare" for him, which is what I'm doing.  He wouldn't do chores, he was not motivated by loss or reward, he dragged us all down everyday and I just ran out of steam, especially while trying to teach my 3 others who actually wanted to learn.

 

On a positive note, although I expected the worst, DS has really stepped up to the plate!  He takes the public bus to and from school, looks after all his own work (and is getting good grades), has decent kids to hang with at school, is well liked by teachers and kids alike. He is a happy person and willingly does his chores or whatever is asked of him at home. It is coming at great financial cost to our family but so far it's been more than worth it.  I am increasingly astonished. I'm sad he's not really learning anything but let's face it, he wasn't learning here anyway despite having the opportunity to choose what he wanted, online classes, outsourced classes, you name it. 

 

I hope you find something that works for your family!

He's getting good grades at an expensive private school, but isn't learning anything? I don't understand -- is he ahead of grade level or do they have some sort of odd curriculum?

[Jenny in Florida]

Don't know about the OP, but my son would rather stare at the wall.  That tells me that some need of his isn't being met, and in this case I'm pretty sure it's self-determination.  What you are suggesting would not accomplish anything other than a daily power struggle leaving me exhausted and him resentful.  Not worth it.

 

Yep.

 

I began to realize that approaching this whole thing as a problem with discipline wasn't going to work when it sank in that my son was perfectly willing to expend significantly more time and effort and emotional energy on NOT doing his work than would be required to just do as he was told. And, while I could, for a while, compel compliance with a combination of threats and bribes, none of that helped him actually learn anything or be happier. And it certainly did nothing to improve our relationship.

 

The other flaw in the advice to "make" a teenaged boy (or even an almost-teenaged boy) sit in any one place or do or not do any one thing is that, frankly, it's impossible. My son was taller and stronger than I am by the time he was 12. Even if I had been willing to attempt to enforce my will through physical confrontation (which would have violated my personal values and beliefs about parenting), I would certainly have lost. Short of turning my home into a prison (which would, of course, do wonders to improve the learning environment and promote family bonding), there was utterly no way I was going to be able to enforce having him sit at his desk or stay in his room or any such thing. And, since I have to sleep at some point, I couldn't even realistically prevent him from playing on the computer or going out with friends or reading a book or . . .

 

What I had to do instead was to let go of my desire to "win" and figure out how to get my son on a path that works for him while, hopefully, repairing the damage I'd already done to our relationship. That meant really listening to him, respecting his need to begin taking responsibility for his own life and choices and trying to re-frame our relationship as something closer  to a partnership. (I'm still the senior partner, of course.)

 

I feel, thus far, as though we've been pretty successful with the first part. He's doing well in school with very little parental involvement, and he's feeling enthusiastic about his academic future. We still have work to do on the relationship stuff, though.  We love each other, but he doesn't trust me as much as I wish he did, and he still often questions my motives and forgets to assume I have his best interests at heart. To be honest, I'm not sure we'll ever repair the damage those few years of conflict did.

[Jenny in Florida]

He's getting good grades at an expensive private school, but isn't learning anything? I don't understand -- is he ahead of grade level or do they have some sort of odd curriculum?

 

It's entirely possible for a kid to learn to play the game, jump through the hoops necessary to score good grades, while not retaining the information. My son has done that with online classes he doesn't like. If he decides it's not worth the trouble to refuse to do the work, he'll do exactly as much of it as is required to get the minimum grade he's been told is acceptable. He figures out how to achieve that grade while investing as little time and attention as possible. Then, once he's met the goal, he moves on and forgets all about it.

 

For example, my son did the first semester of an online Spanish class. He earned straight A's on the assignments. The teacher never noticed anything amiss and praised his work in our monthly check-in calls. However, after a semester of work (and despite previous exposure with other curricula), he couldn't string together the most basic phrase or define more than a couple of vocabulary words. He simply figured out how to game the system to get grades so I would stay off of his back.

 

Many of the gifted students I've known over the years adopt a similar strategy.

[Tess in the Burbs]

Well, some of the discussions yesterday paid off.  He knows he has to get an education for his future.  Whether he pursues college or not is his option and he's making a list of things he likes to do and wants to do in the future.  And I'm going to show him the path to these careers he thinks he would like.  So far everything mentioned needed math so he's making a new list lol.  

 

today he was up early and I found him on the treadmill running.   :huh:

 

He's applied himself today and told me many times he wished he hadn't lost his video game time.....

 

He's a different kid today.  We agreed to change up a few things in school.  He really just doesn't like it.  So for his own sake I hope he finds some passion that he can make into money in the next few years.....for now he's getting a full education.  If he shows some readiness we are willing to go all project based learning.  

 

I wanted to say....mine would stare at a wall for hours instead of doing what was asked of him when in this angry mode.  He's stubbornly determined in the right frame of anger.  I found taking things away only made him angrier.  But I agree that if a kid isn't living up to his end of things(school/chores/respect in the home) then they shouldn't have access to all the things they had....so at this point I'm torn about that discipline.  Losing video games gets his attention this week. I didn't clear out his room since he got his crap together yesterday afternoon and got his work done as asked.  In the past it didn't phase him about losing video games.  Apparently his 'currency' changes weekly.  

 

I'm going to be flexible this school year with his moodiness and let him continue making choices about his education regardless if I agree.  There will be math and writing at least.  And he's decided physical activity before school is good for him.  So hopefully we can continue to find a path that works for us both.  

[Amy in NH]

I'm going to be flexible this school year with his moodiness and let him continue making choices about his education regardless if I agree.  There will be math and writing at least.  And he's decided physical activity before school is good for him.  So hopefully we can continue to find a path that works for us both.  

 

This is wise.  At the beginning of puberty my boys had moody days where they were angry or sad for no reason at all.  Hormones.  :001_rolleyes:

[Guest submarines]

It's entirely possible for a kid to learn to play the game, jump through the hoops necessary to score good grades, while not retaining the information. My son has done that with online classes he doesn't like. If he decides it's not worth the trouble to refuse to do the work, he'll do exactly as much of it as is required to get the minimum grade he's been told is acceptable. He figures out how to achieve that grade while investing as little time and attention as possible. Then, once he's met the goal, he moves on and forgets all about it.

 

For example, my son did the first semester of an online Spanish class. He earned straight A's on the assignments. The teacher never noticed anything amiss and praised his work in our monthly check-in calls. However, after a semester of work (and despite previous exposure with other curricula), he couldn't string together the most basic phrase or define more than a couple of vocabulary words. He simply figured out how to game the system to get grades so I would stay off of his back.

 

Many of the gifted students I've known over the years adopt a similar strategy.

DH was like this in school. He very carefully estimated the amount of effort needed to pass the courses he didn't like and passed them all with the minimum grade needed. On the other hand, he learned and has retained amazing amounts of information in the two courses that he did like--biology / anatomy and physics. 

[MrsMe]

What you are missing here is that the child has a personality in which every little thing is a struggle and the "defiance" never ends.  Making your child sit for years will not accomplish the educational goals you have set and will only damage your relationship.  My son would rather sit than do the work that I choose for him.  However, now that we have a good relationship he will gladly help with the laundry when I ask instead of giving me a big attitude about it. 

 

 

Obviously it all depends upon the child.  If you saw the rest I wrote or it could have been another post in the same thread, I can't remember, dd preferred to do chores than school, so that didn't work for as as sitting didn't work for your son.  Sitting worked for her like a charm, because she thought she could go "do" something else if she didn't do her school work.  No damage here.  Just worked every time!  But if you have your kid "sit for years", I would assume there's another issue going on here.    Logical consequences didn't always work either.  We had to take away something that mattered.  It all depends on the type of kid you have. 

[Katy]

Sounds like you figured it out.

 

We do exercise before school every day, and so far haven't had much of a problem.  But we don't do a lot of extra subjects either, and if I see an attitude problem I generally require copywork of applicable Bible verses or quotes about the character trait in question.

 

I was a little like him when I was a preteen - I got an hour after school to do my homework and memorize bible verses, and if I didn't finish in time I had to sit on the floor in the laundry room and do nothing else except the work or reading a bible until I was done.  I got so mad I refused to do the work, ended up flipping through the Bible and landed on Proverbs, which basically reinforced the concept to obey my parents, stop being lazy, be a hard worker, and to stop talking so much.  Eventually I did the work.  It might have taken 6 weeks.

 

Honestly if a boy was being super defiant I might question my resolve to never spank, and would probably leave it up to DH, who would probably opt to turn the kid's life into boot camp at home for a while - tons of chores, awake very early for exercise and more chores.

[LydiaG]

I am currently reading "The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child" and I am trying out some of what he says. Some things that I've read on this thread are addressed specifically in the book; e.g., one of the myths of parenting is that punishment will change bad behavior. "Depending on your style of parenting and your mood at any given moment, you decree time-outs, take away a privilege, shout 'Stop that!', or use nonverbal displays of exasperation like eye-rolling and sighing. ... If you're like most parents, you start out with milder punishments and escalate to more severe ones. Whether you do it mildly or severely, calmly or angrily, systematically or randomly, you probably find yourself punishing your child a great deal, and when you're not punishing, you're threatening to punish. " Sound familiar? I recognized myself in that description

 

Kazdin has a method that rewards (with praise) good behavior. He says that punishment teaches what NOT to do, but praise teaches what TO do.

 

I have been trying out his method for a week, and so far the results are promising. I tell the kids once, nicely, that it is time to start school work and they start and work until it's done. Of course they take breaks and I still have to remind them a few times to return to school work (versus the constant nagging), but the entire school day runs smoother, I remain calm, and I enjoy being with my kids by the end of the day.

 

There are many great defiant-child books out there, but after reading several, I have found Kazdin's to be closest to how I would want to be treated, if I were a child.

[Kel & the Kids]

He's getting good grades at an expensive private school, but isn't learning anything? I don't understand -- is he ahead of grade level or do they have some sort of odd curriculum?

 

I just noticed I didn't answer this!

 

The private school is the cheapest in the area so relatively speaking it's not expensive - it's just expensive as far as *our* budget goes ;)  They just do so much of nothing there that after homeschooling it appears to me as if they are learning next to nothing. One example is that Weds. are 1/2 hr English, 1/2 hr French, 2 hours of Foods, PE and Art. And they spent the first 5 weeks on "safety in the kitchen" in Foods.  One afternoon a week the do chores around the school. They require hardly any reading.  I really consider all that to be a waste of time.  He's getting good marks on questions like: Where is the best place to keep the oven mitts? (next to the stove). Seriously.  He's been well prepared in our homeschool and most things are review despite the constant struggle we had. 

[Melissa in Australia]

My idea might not be popular, but perhaps a combination of letting him choose what he wants to learn about and rewards (AKA bribes).  Looking at some of what you are using, I might revolt too if I'm being honest.  If he is very bright, some of that looks like it might just be tedious busy work.

:iagree:

[mathmarm]

You can't force anyone to learn, no matter what. You can lecture, incentive, advise, tell, threaten, yell, cajole, bribe, etc...but ultimately, the decision to comply with any of that is the individuals. If I had any wisdom here, I'd be happily spouting it out, but I don't know the answer (or that one even exists). Best of luck, :grouphug: