Father does his 13yo daughter's homework for a week

[8filltheheart]

I am annoyed because I just made these fabulous points on the other thread, 8fill and nmoira. LOL

Where is the other thread?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 I hope I'm linking the other one and not this one...  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489235-father-tries-to-do-his-childs-8th-grade-homework/

[8filltheheart]

I hope I'm linking the other one and not this one... http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/489235-father-tries-to-do-his-childs-8th-grade-homework/

Thanks. I just skimmed it. I don't go in the chat board, so that is why I didn't see it.

 

Those responses don't change my mind. 8th grade is young. But, what do I know, I can't imagine sending my children into that environment willingly and he has already made the decision to send a 2nd. Obviously his concern is limited to his keypad.

 

 

Her workload sounds excessive to me.

 

I still disagree.  The time she's taking sounds excessive, and the time that seems to be wasted in the mechanics of the school day and whatever else happens before 8pm seem excessive, but the workload does not.  She's taking high school level classes, and to do high school level Math, I would expect some calculation to be done independently every night. Simplifying 11 expressions just isn't that much work.  I'm curious what you would recommend:  not have any independent math work?  5 problems?  3?

 

And for reading, even if it does take an hour a day, that doesn't seem excessive.  If we are all classical educators here, and think that high school freshman should be reading the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Aeneid, Shakespeare and Milton freshman year, an hour a day of reading is about on schedule.  I read complaints here all the time about public school students who only read two novels a semester.  If you think it is reasonable to read a novel every two weeks, that's going to take some time to get done.  Again, how much reading time do you consider reasonable?  How many novels should a high school freshman read in honors English in a semester?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thanks. I just skimmed it. I don't go in the chat board, so that is why I didn't see it.

 

Those responses don't change my mind. 8th grade is young. But, what do I know, I can't imagine sending my children into that environment willingly and he has already made the decision to send a 2nd. Obviously his concern is limited to his keypad.

 

ITA. Some people were surprised to see the marijuana reference, but the sentence that really made me gasp was the one in which he shared that dd#2 is headed down the same path. Why???

[kiana]

11 polynomials? Not a problem. The 8th grade math assignments actually sound pretty reasonable.

 

The sheer ridiculousness of the 6th grade assignment of finding the distances from Sacramento to ALL the stupid state capitals in both miles and kilometers? Utter rubbish. I'm still gobsmacked.

[chiguirre]

FWIW, I am not a fast reader. It would take me at least an hour to read 80 pages of Angela's Ashes (yes, I've read it), perhaps a bit more if I were also considering how to complete an assignment based on my reading. Are we expecting her to read Tarbuck's through once and retain anything? It's actually a pretty good text, but you still have to *think* your way through much of it.

 

Her workload sounds excessive to me.

Thank you! I was starting to wonder if I was the only one. It would take me 2 hours to read 80 pages of Angela's Ashes. I'm not a fast reader and I do not skim. However, I do retain what I read. I made it through AP English and Penn with my slow reading, so I don't think it's fair to say this girl doesn't deserve to be in middle school honors English class because it takes her 2 hours to read 80 pages.

[angelmama1209]

I still disagree.  The time she's taking sounds excessive, and the time that seems to be wasted in the mechanics of the school day and whatever else happens before 8pm seem excessive, but the workload does not.  She's taking high school level classes, and to do high school level Math, I would expect some calculation to be done independently every night. Simplifying 11 expressions just isn't that much work.  I'm curious what you would recommend:  not have any independent math work?  5 problems?  3?

 

And for reading, even if it does take an hour a day, that doesn't seem excessive.  If we are all classical educators here, and think that high school freshman should be reading the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Aeneid, Shakespeare and Milton freshman year, an hour a day of reading is about on schedule.  I read complaints here all the time about public school students who only read two novels a semester.  If you think it is reasonable to read a novel every two weeks, that's going to take some time to get done.  Again, how much reading time do you consider reasonable?  How many novels should a high school freshman read in honors English in a semester?

 

i don't believe the math was the problem. he even says he/they flew through it fairly quickly. it was all the other stuff.

[Spy Car]

Newflash: Writers in the Internet era exaggerate for effect. Overstatement serves as the provocation that drives traffic and readership.

 

Our elementary school is a feeder-school to Paul Revere Middle School (mentioned in the article) and we know many young people (and their parents) at the school. This article is a gross exaggeration of reality.

 

It does strike me funny that either:

 

a ) Nothing goes on in Pubic School education. Certainly nothing that can't be matched in 2 hours (in to out) at home.

 

or

 

b ) The poor PS kids are being driven to death with long class-room days, followed by massive loads of homework that keeps them up past midnight.

 

And that, either way, all those hours MUST be a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

 

T'ain't so.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

This is the main reason (with input from the parents) my dd decided not to attend the IB school that accepted her.  After talking to several students who attend plus my visiting with some parents of students, 6 to 12 every night is not out of line.  Every parent lamented that their kids had no life outside of school.  Also, this school does not offer any sports - it is just academics.  

 

I'm starting to think that the problem with the IB is that it doesn't fit well with the general US education system.  In the UK, pupils take SAT-II level exams (GCSEs) at sixteen.  After that, if their school offers it, they study the IB for two years.  The work is demanding, but it's not a fact-cramming exercise - instead, it's a question of going deeply into areas that have already been covered in a general way.  So, for example, you wouldn't be allowed to study biology at IB level if you hadn't already taken your GCSE in that subject.  The boys' school averages a diploma score of 33, vs. a worldwide average of 30.

 

FWIW, in order to receive an IB diploma, you have to document 50 hours of exercise, 50 hours of volunteering and 50 hours of art/music/theatre participation.  It's not an enormous amount, but it is something.  This is not school-dependent - it's laid down by the IB organisation.

 

L

[8filltheheart]

Newflash: Writers in the Internet era exaggerate for effect. Overstatement serves as the provocation that drives traffic and readership.

 

Our elementary school is a feeder-school to Paul Revere Middle School (mentioned in the article) and we know many young people (and their parents) at the school. This article is a gross exaggeration of reality.

 

It does strike me funny that either:

 

a ) Nothing goes on in Pubic School education. Certainly nothing that can't be matched in 2 hours (in to out) at home.

 

or

 

b ) The poor PS kids are being driven to death with long class-room days, followed by massive loads of homework that keeps them up past midnight.

 

And that, either way, all those hours MUST be a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME.

 

T'ain't so.

 

Bill

It is all the matter of priorities. High volume of output and extensive knowledge-base....those are the focus of most schools in the US.

[Arcadia]

I'm starting to think that the problem with the IB is that it doesn't fit well with the general US education system.  In the UK, pupils take SAT-II level exams (GCSEs) at sixteen.  After that, if their school offers it, they study the IB for two years.  The work is demanding, but it's not a fact-cramming exercise - instead, it's a question of going deeply into areas that have already been covered in a general way.

The thing with the US education system is that it tries to keep open as many doors as possible at the high school level. The UK system allows kids who want to specialise to do so early. I was on a engineering track at 14, hubby was on a pre-med track at the same age.  We still have to take humanities subjects but it has no effect on GPA. 

[Spy Car]

It is all the matter of priorities. High volume of output and extensive knowledge-base....those are the focus of most schools in the US.

 

It is what you want to believe. The reality is the big push is to get children to think critically, to teach for understanding, to plumb for depth, and to expect students to meet high standards of quality in their work.

 

When having an "extensive knowledge base" and being capable of producing a high volume of quality output became dirty-words is beyond me.

 

I know the Brentwood school in question. It is a thriving school. The article grossly exaggerates. Do Middle School students have home-work? Sure. But these are the sorts of schools that are educating tomorrow's leaders. They are meeting high level expectations. 

 

Bill

i don't believe the math was the problem. he even says he/they flew through it fairly quickly. it was all the other stuff.

 

OK,  the first night's homework was three things.  The math, reading from a novel, and studying for a science test.  If the math is reasonable,  which of "read from your novel" or "do some unspecified amount of studying for tomorrow's test" is the enormous amount of mindless homework that indicates that public school kids are being overloaded with useless busywork?  The article claims that the sum of these takes about 4 hours; 30 minutes of which was the studying for the science test.

 

I can't believe that so many folks on a classical education board are so down on reading.

[MBM]

I am getting the feeling that Karl Greenfeld has problems that run deep. He admits in another interview that he lies. Is he embellishing or leaving out key facts in this article? In his ficition, he uses his wife's exact name which pisses her off. Passive aggressive maybe? He also mentions that as a child, when he wrote well, his father loved him but not when he didn't. It sounds like he was conditionally loved. He is also a former meth addict who admits to still smoking pot. Does he use harder substances?

 

As I read the article, I found myself wondering whether Greenfeld is consistently present in his children's lives, if he is even capable of it. I feel a little sorry for him.

 

Anyway, his daughter's school dismisses kids at 2:35. What is happening between then and 8:00 when she begins homework? She might have activities and a long bus ride, but the activities are choices. The bus ride probably does not take over three hours. Btw, my two older kids had bus rides 1.5 hours each way in Chicago which, at the time, were some of the longest for school kids in the city. They still managed to play hockey and finish homework well before 10:00 pm at night. They also attended challenging, competitive schools.

 

I really can't tell from the article what is honestly going on.

 

If the school's homework load is so bad, why is he putting his younger child there?

[Library Momma]

Well, as a former NYC resident myself, I can attest that most kids are involved in afterschool activities til around 6 or so. Sometimes later. 

 

What I found sad is that although he protests the homework, his younger daughter applied, and will attend, the same school. It's as though on some level he's showing off ("there is SO MUCH HOMEWORK at this school that my daughter doesnt get to bed until midnight and even I can't keep up, and I have to FORCE her to go to sleep but sometimes she sets her alarm for 1 am to do MORE WORK, it's just TOO AWFUL....and how much homework does YOUR kid have?" Again, having lived there, I can assure you that the culture of vanity complaining is alive and well.

 

I agree with Halcyon,and in addition I've seen the parents of children in competitive programs knowingly exaggerate the level of difficulty and amount of homework in a school to scare off the competition for their younger children.  Siblings do not always get automatic acceptance.

[mathnerd]

First of all, DO NOT believe all that you read on the internet :) I am not sure how true every thing the author writes is (especially the part about smoking marijuana and trying to simulate his high school homework days). Secondly, the workload of the child looks OK to me - this homework looks very trivial compared to the homework at Gunn High school and Monta Vista High school in my area which have a reputation of sending in 4-5 hours of homework every night (and they also have a reputation of being Ivy League feeder schools because of the high quality of their education). 

My assumption is that the elder daughter has a ton of extracurriculars - like dance, sport or music and that takes a large part of her afterschool time (for e.g. my neighbor 8th grade girl dances/choreographs for 3.5 hours every evening in her ballet school). That is surely bound to make a child sluggish and sloppy when it comes time to do homework. Not to mention social networking!

And why complain about finding the distance from Sacramento to other capitals - it is an excellent exercise in learning the names of state capitals and in this age of Google maps, it can be done in less than 5 minutes (including conversion to Kilometers). I personally do not know many state capitals and I could benefit from sitting down and doing this exercise myself! If a kid went on Jeopardy and answered this exact same question, we would all be appreciating the "extensive knowledge base" of such a child. 

 

Disclaimer: My child does NOT attend public school (I have my own bunch of complaints about our PS, most of them not related to the homework load), but I don't think that there is anything extraordinary in that homework load - btw, I could have done 79 pages of reading easily in my youth (can still do). And I would never complain about "reading a book" being excessive homework - especially if I were an author writing for The Atlantic whose living is made from reading and writing.

[8filltheheart]

It is what you want to believe. The reality is the big push is to get children to think critically, to teach for understanding, to plumb for depth, and to expect students to meet high standards of quality in their work.

 

When having an "extensive knowledge base" and being capable of producing a high volume of quality output became dirty-words is beyond me.

Bill

I am not going through this again. I don't live in a vacuum with no exposure to kids in ps school. Most of my kids friends are ps kids. They are not being taught to be critical thinkers. They are being taught to memorize vast pages of facts. AP exams are starting to change, but only bc colleges were complaining that students were scoring well but didn't understand the material. Deny it at you want, but when you have 60% of CC students and 20 % of university students enrolling in at least 1 remedial class (and I chose a source you would like, Huffington http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/college-remedial-education_n_3652650.html ) ......high school graduates in this country are not some utopian group of highly educated citizenry. These are not drop-outs. These are college bound students.

 

Fwiw, you added a word, quality, to my statement. I disagree that the work output load that these students are doing is quality. High volume output is definitely not synonymous with quality output.

 

You are apparently blessed with a good school system. But the kids we know are receiving a mediocre one at best at the best schools around and they work their tails off. They are hard-workers. I would never suggest they aren't. But the methodology is inefficient, improperly focused, and over-burdensome. Students can learn far more, in more depth, of better quality,and in less time. 2 hrs in high school? No. But in far less time than a full school day with 5 hrs of homework (referring here to the high school kids we know vs the article) plus homework all weekend. Fwiw, one of my favorite math friends has told me horror stories about the quality of math education at her math/science magnet. She tutors them. Kids that make As in the class but make 1s on the AP and fail in college, etc.

 

Since my kids have all been A college students and have never taken a remedial course, I must be doing something right. ;)

[LibraryLover]

 

 

FWIW, in order to receive an IB diploma, you have to document 50 hours of exercise, 50 hours of volunteering and 50 hours of art/music/theatre participation.  It's not an enormous amount, but it is something.  This is not school-dependent - it's laid down by the IB organisation.

 

L

 

I like that.

[Haiku]

From what was listed, I would expect the standard 10 min X grade level to be enough homework and study time if all her teachers are competent. She's exceeding that, which means she is either struggling academically, or she hasn't learn to efficiently use her time or she doesn't know how to study.

 

Or she has too much work, which is the point of the article. Parents all over the country think their kids have too much homework. Mine certainly did. It's not because all these kids are struggling academically or don't know how to study properly/efficiently. It's because the teachers give too much work.

 

My daughter once had to write out 40 science definitions and use them each in a sentence. Regardless of the relative merits of such an assignment, it's time-consuming. Add that to all the other work (my dd had 6-7 academic classes in high school) and it takes the whole evening, even if you're working efficiently.

 

At the very least, schools should stagger homework days. Teachers can take turns assigning homework. If every teacher needs to assign homework every day, then those teachers are not teaching effectively.

[Joker]

At the very least, schools should stagger homework days. Teachers can take turns assigning homework. If every teacher needs to assign homework every day, then those teachers are not teaching effectively.

I will add that this is a big reason my 13 year dd has less than two hours of homework most nights. They are on a block schedule, so she has three 90 minute classes each day and they alternate. She does have 50 minutes of Algebra everyday, but most of her homework is staggered.

[Spy Car]

I am not going through this again. I don't live in a vacuum with no exposure to kids in ps school. Most of my kids friends are ps kids. They are not being taught to be critical thinkers. They are being taught to memorize vast pages of facts. AP exams are starting to change, but only bc colleges were complaining that students were scoring well but didn't understand the material. Deny it at you want, but when you have 60% of CC students and 20 % of university students enrolling in at least 1 remedial class (and I chose a source you would like, Huffington http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/college-remedial-education_n_3652650.html ) ......high school graduates in this country are not some utopian group of highly educated citizenry. These are not drop-outs. These are college bound students.

 

Fwiw, you added a word, quality, to my statement. I disagree that the work output load that these students are doing is quality. High volume output is definitely not synonymous with quality output.

 

You are apparently blessed with a good school system. But the kids we know are receiving a mediocre one at best at the best schools around and they work their tails off. They are hard-workers. I would never suggest they aren't. But the methodology is inefficient, improperly focused, and over-burdensome. Students can learn far more, in more depth, of better quality,and in less time. 2 hrs in high school? No. But in far less time than a full school day with 5 hrs of homework (referring here to the high school kids we know vs the article) plus homework all weekend. Fwiw, one of my favorite math friends has told me horror stories about the quality of math education at her math/science magnet. She tutors them. Kids that make As in the class but make 1s on the AP and fail in college, etc.

 

Since my kids have all been A college students and have never taken a remedial course, I must be doing something right. ;)

 

 

If you the Huffington Post is a source I wold "like," then you don't know the first thing about me (or my taste). HuPo is emblematic of the worst sort of online "journalism" in my estimation.

 

You seem to always want to personalize these discussions, so let me be clear I've never had cause to doubt you've done a good job with your children's educations. You are, however, wrong about what goes on in good schools.

 

There is an ideological component (mixed with defensiveness) in the homeschool community that blinds people to reality sometimes. 

 

Bill

[Soror]

I will just say I'm glad to be hs'ing and I think it quite sad that for many hs students *success* equals more work than a full-time job. I'm sad that *success* in these circles necessitates so much school work and extra-curriculars that children are not left with enough time to properly attend to their physical and emotional needs. We pushed back against child labor but we've just adopted it in a different form, I really don't understand why this is so much more palatable and championed. If this is considered normal and needed for success I feel so lucky to have been spared the honor.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

.... You are, however, wrong about what goes on in good schools.

 

There is an ideological component (mixed with defensiveness) in the homeschool community that blinds people to reality sometimes.

 

Bill

What exactly is your experience with good schools, Bill? Because if I recall correctly according to your history here, you have parental experience with one school only, and that only up to the third grade level.

 

Could it be possible that the one who is blinded to realities might be the wealthy father of one small boy who lives in a "good" school district and not the board full of mothers of teens and adults who all have extensive experience with home, private, and public schools and colleges throughout the nation over a period of decades?

Or she has too much work, which is the point of the article. Parents all over the country think their kids have too much homework. Mine certainly did. 

 

I have no idea how much homework your local PS assigned, or the nature thereof.  There is no reason to disbelieve you.  I have little knowledge what my local PS does.  They both may very well issue horrible homework loads.  But that's not the point of this thread.  If the author is to be believed, we know exactly how much homework was assigned to this student.  And so, I would ask those on this thread to only comment on these facts on the table. And objectively, it isn't that much.  Personally, if my eighth grade daughter were setting her alarm for 1am, so she could wake up after everyone else in the house had gone to sleep, and accidentally woke me, I would be very dubious of her "I needed to do my homework" excuse.  What I have heard from PS moms, is that with the advent of Facebook, chat rooms and text messaging from devices in bedrooms, homework time has become online and social. I bet if the author turned off the internet and collected her cell phone at 8pm, suddenly her homework would get done a lot sooner.  

 

 

 

 If every teacher needs to assign homework every day, then those teachers are not teaching effectively.

 

 

 

Perhaps, but there are some subjects that really benefit from even a little bit of independent work every day.  I believe that math and foreign languages fall into this category.

[Spy Car]

What exactly is your experience with good schools, Bill? Because if I recall correctly according to your history here, you have parental experience with one school only, and that only up to the third grade level.

 

Could it be possible that the one who is blinded to realities might be the wealthy father of one small boy who lives in a "good" school district and not the board full of mothers of teens and adults who all have extensive experience with home, private, and public schools and colleges throughout the nation over a period of decades?

 

As I said, one of the (two) schools mentioned in the article, Paul Revere Middle School, is a local school. It is one of the Middle Schools that our elementary school feeds into. I know many parents (and their children) who attend Paul Revere. I am very familiar with the school. It is a thriving (but not perfect) Middle School. The author of the article is grossly exaggerating when it comes to the homework load, but it is a school where parents-teachers-administrators-and students are serious about the education.

 

Paul Revere is one of those schools where the vast majority of the kids are on the path to success.

 

I know some people don't wish to believe that there are no successful public schools, but it ain't the case. We actually live in a district with plenty of "problem schools." Many are impacted by poverty, gangs, crime, and parents with low-educational levels. 

 

Bill

 

ETA: I now have a 4th Grader and have toured Paul Revere the past 3 years.

[8filltheheart]

If you the Huffington Post is a source I wold "like," then you don't know the first thing about me (or my taste). HuPo is emblematic of the worst sort of online "journalism" in my estimation.

 

You seem to always want to personalize these discussions, so let me be clear I've never had cause to doubt you've done a good job with your children's educations. You are, however, wrong about what goes on in good schools.

 

There is an ideological component (mixed with defensiveness) in the homeschool community that blinds people to reality sometimes. 

 

Bill

 

Take your pick then.   It is fact.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-05-11-remedial-college_N.htm

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/educ/improving-college-completion-reforming-remedial.aspx

• The need for remediation is widespread. When considering all first-time undergraduates, stud­ies have found anywhere from 28 percent to 40 percent of students enroll in at least one re­medial course. When looking at only community college students, several studies have found remediation rates surpassing 50 percent.

 

• Students are not testing at college-ready levels on na­tional assessments. Only 25 percent of students who took the ACT met the test’s readiness benchmarks in all four subjects (English, reading, math and science) in 2012. A mere 5 percent of African Americans and 13 percent of Hispanics met the readiness benchmarks in all four subjects

My commentary here (the above quotes are from the link above from the National Counsel of State Legislatures)   These statistics are appalling.   Benchmark scores are not high.   They are English 18, Math 22, Reading 22, and Science 23.    The ACT is typically only taken by students intending on applying to universities (CCs do not require ACT scores and students not planning on attending university do not typically take the ACT. (though I believe there is a move for some states to start requiring it of all jrs.   In 2011 the test was only taken by 1,666,017 and the total # of graduating srs was  3,234,000.   What was the educational outcome of the approx 2 million that didn't even test? 

 

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/18/167538884/catching-up-with-remedial-courses-in-college

http://www.pewstates.org/projects/stateline/headlines/states-reform-college-remedial-education-85899492704

http://www.communitycollegereview.com/articles/219

http://www.educationnews.org/online-schools/california-colleges-experiment-with-online-remedial-courses/

 

 

FWIW, you obviously have not read many of my posts pertaining to my views of homeschoolers in general b/c I have stated multiple times that I know far too many homeschoolers IRL that **inmho** are not providing an appropriate education.  (and I get obliterated over that view b/c the position is that not all are educating for the same objective.   Fair enough.   But, I also know many that are supposedly educating with the same end goals that I have and still provide dubious educations.)  I am not blind to those realities. (It is why I don't have much in common with most homeschoolers I know IRL b/c we have very different educational objectives.)   Goodness, I had to fight them with my oldest ds whose friends all hung out together every Friday and he was mad b/c he was doing school.     I have written about all of his homeschool friends with the exception of 1 really struggled to adjust to college and his roommate failed almost every single class his freshman yr.   That yr my ds called me and told me thank you.

 

Conversely, I would suggest that your posts turn a blind eye to the real outcomes of a large portion of the US graduating populace.   Ironically, every place we have ever lived (and we move a lot) we have always been told that while schools in x,y,z are not great, the local schools are excellent.   In every single place!   Parents take great pride in their schools.   I see it everywhere.   When we moved here we were told repeatedly that we would want to stop homeschooling since the schools are ranked 9 out of 10 are some of the best in the state.   Umm, no.   They may be good schools for certain students, but we have friends whose dd and several of her friends scored around 15 on the ACT that attend this 9 out of 10 school.   These are middle class families that are involved in their students lives and educations and were shocked beyond belief.   The linked articles above are about real people from real schools in good locations.....not just appalling, impoverished public schools.

 

It is the simple suggestion that somehow time (and beginning age) and lots of output equate to quality education that totally befuddles me and where I completely disagree with you.

[ErinE]

I will just say I'm glad to be hs'ing and I think it quite sad that for many hs students *success* equals more work than a full-time job. I'm sad that *success* in these circles necessitates so much school work and extra-curriculars that children are not left with enough time to properly attend to their physical and emotional needs. We pushed back against child labor but we've just adopted it in a different form, I really don't understand why this is so much more palatable and championed. If this is considered normal and needed for success I feel so lucky to have been spared the honor.

This was bothering me this morning. Is it okay that the child is in school for seven hours and then has another two to three hours of homework? Even with one bour for lunch (which is more than double the time for most schools in my area), If a child was working a job for eight to nine hours a day, parents would say it's not appropriate. But doing schoolwork for nine hours? That's okay because it's a feeder school. Really?

[Spy Car]

FWIW, you obviously have not read many of my posts pertaining to my views of homeschoolers in general b/c I have stated multiple times that I know far too many homeschoolers IRL that are not providing an appropriate education.   I am not blind to those realities. (It is why I don't have much in common with most homeschoolers I know IRL b/c we have very different educational objectives.)   Goodness, I had to fight them with my oldest ds whose friends all hung out together every Friday and he was mad b/c he was doing school.     I have written about all of his homeschool friends with the exception of 1 really struggled to adjust to college and his roommate failed almost every single class his freshman yr.   That yr my ds called me and told me thank you.

 

Conversely, I would suggest that your posts turn a blind eye to the real outcomes of a large portion of the US graduating populace.   Ironically, every place we have ever lived (and we move a lot) we have always been told that while schools in x,y,z are not great, the local schools are excellent.   In every single place!   Parents take great pride in their schools.   I see it everywhere.   When we moved here we were told repeatedly that we would want to stop homeschooling since the schools are ranked 9 out of 10 are some of the best in the state.   Umm, no.   They may be good schools for certain students, but we have friends whose dd and several of her friends scored around 15 on the ACT that attend this 9 out of 10 school.   These are middle class families that are involved in their students lives and educations and were shocked beyond belief.   The linked articles above are about real people from real schools in good locations.....not just appalling, inmpoverished public schools.

 

It is the simple suggestion that somehow time and output equate to quality education that totally befuddles me and where I completely disagree with you.

 

As to the need for "remediation," I don't dispute the necessity of remediation for many students coming out of high schools. Many of these students (locally) are coming out of very challenging circumstances. Usually they are graduating from second tier (or worse) schools. Many of those students have worked very hard to overcome economic disadvantages, perhaps come from families where the parents don't speak English, and where the school culture is not as supportive of educational excellence as either of us would hope.

 

But in those schools there are kids with dreams, and dedicated teachers and school administrators working hard to give these students a better future. Do some (many) students graduate still needing remediation if they hope to get a 4 year degree? Yes, for sure. Do we wish they'd all exit High School with these skills fully developed so remediation was unnecessary? Sure, I wish it was so.

 

But the reality is many of these student don't have the advantages that students at Paul Revere Middle School can (mostly) take for granted. So we either give these students a leg up after finishing High School, or their educational prospects end. we do need to keep pushing, as a society, to improve "disadvantaged schools," but the problems in those school is multi-factorial.

 

In contrast, the students at Paul Revere can be expected to fill the ranks of the most elite universities in the nation. 

 

We share concerns, it seems, that too many homeschool parents may not be not providing an appropriate education. I used to presume all (most) WTMer were "going for the gold," but the 2 hours a day type threads have me wondering. I don't doubt that there are efficiencies to "home education" (we home educate too), but from some comments I read I think we've had years were we've put in more home education hours than "full time" homeschoolers. Those people are kidding themselves if they think this matches what is happening at thriving public schools.

 

Bill

[8filltheheart]

As to the need for "remediation," I don't dispute the necessity of remediation for many students coming out of high schools. Many of these students (locally) are coming out of very challenging circumstances. Usually they are graduating from second tier (or worse) schools. Many of those students have worked very hard to overcome economic disadvantages, perhaps come from families where the parents don't speak English, and where the school culture is not as supportive of educational excellence as either of us would hope.

 

But in those schools there are kids with dreams, and dedicated teachers and school administrators working hard to give these students a better future. Do some (many) student's graduate still needing remediation if they hope to get a 4 year degree? Yes, for sure. Do we wish they'd all exit High School with these skills fully developed so remediation was unnecessary? Sure, I wish it was so.

 

But the reality is many of these student don't have the advantages that students at Paul Revere Middle School can (mostly) take for granted. So we either give these students a leg up after finishing High School, or their educational prospects end. we do need to keep pushing, as a society, to improve "disadvantaged schools," but the problems in those school is multi-factorial.

 

In contrast, the students at Paul Revere can be expected to fill the ranks of the most elite universities in the nation. 

 

We share concerns, it seems, that too many homeschool parents may not be not providing an appropriate education. I used to presume all (most) WTMer were "going for the gold," but the 2 hours a day type threads have me wondering. I don't doubt that there are efficiencies to "home education" (we home educate too), but from some comments I read I think we've had years were we've put in more home education hours than "full time" homeschoolers. Those people are kidding themselves if they think this matches what is happening at thriving public schools.

 

Bill

 

I am clueless about Paul Revere and based on the article, I was under the assumption that Lab (where she currently attends) was a private school.  

 

But......you overstate your pt. I have no doubt that the disadvantage students need support, etc. I don't doubt anyone would disagree with you on that pt.    However,  it is precisely those "good" schools with non-tragic story students that are producing the majority of the remedial students.  Simply based on statistics, who are the students that attend college?   Even with the 25 % at 4 yr schools vs. the 60% at CCs (making a stereotypical judgment which is probably inaccurate....assuming the poorer, weaker students go to the CCs), 25% of university students is 1/4 of ONLY COLLEGE BOUND high school graduates.  I'm sorry.   The sob stories "disadvantaged schools" or  cultural diversity of ESL students do not even come close to accounting for that large of a number.  

 

The American public school system may have a few gems.   But, by and large, a lot of them just plain do not provide quality education.   As I stated in my other post, my favorite math lady in the world tutors students from a suburban math/science magnet (the kids have to qualify to be admitted into the magnet program).   THey make As in the classroom.  1s and 2s on the exams.   Flunk in their cal 1 classes (which should be a repeat of what they did their sr yr in high school and which they didn't place out of b/c their scores were low even though they thought they were great math students making As in AP cal.)   This is not about kids that are coming from extreme disadvantages.   THis is happening on a much broader scale and denying it doesn't make it not real.   It is very real and very disturbing.

 

[Spy Car]

I am clueless about Paul Revere and based on the article, I was under the assumption that Lab (where she currently attends) was a private school.

 

But......you overstate your pt. I have no doubt that the disadvantage students need support, etc. I don't doubt anyone would disagree with you on that pt. However, it is precisely those "good" schools with non-tragic story students that are producing the majority of the remedial students. Simply based on statistics, who are the students that attend college? Even with the 25 % at 4 yr schools vs. the 60% at CCs (making a stereotypical judgment which is probably inaccurate....assuming the poorer, weaker students go to the CCs), 25% of university students is 1/4 of ONLY COLLEGE BOUND high school graduates. I'm sorry. The sob stories "disadvantaged schools" or cultural diversity of ESL students do not even come close to accounting for that large of a number.

Students from Paul Revere Middle School typically go on to the very best universities in the nation. That is the expectation (and the reality). It is extremely unlikely the typical Paul Revere student will end up in remedial classes. Are there outliers (and "screw-ups") in any school? Sure. But this is not the kind of school where students pass through without facing high expectations. The article grossly exaggerated the homework load, but not the expectations for high level work.

 

The American public school system may have a few gems. But, by and large, a lot of them just plain do not provide quality education. As I stated in my other post, my favorite math lady in the world tutors students from a suburban math/science magnet (the kids have to qualify to be admitted into the magnet program). THey make As in the classroom. 1s and 2s on the exams. Flunk in their cal 1 classes (which should be a repeat of what they did their sr yr in high school and which they didn't place out of b/c their scores were low even though they thought they were great math students making As in AP cal.) This is not about kids that are coming from extreme disadvantages. THis is happening on a much broader scale and denying it doesn't make it not real. It is very real and very disturbing.

 

I can't speak to a school I know nothing about. If students are getting A's in school and then flunking college classes, it is disturbing.

 

Bill

[8filltheheart]

I can't speak to a school I know nothing about. If students are getting A's in school and then flunking college classes, it is disturbing.

 

Bill

 

And more likely a reality based on statistics than your posts about schools like Paul Revere.

[regentrude]

I take the entire article with a grain of salt.

The math homework? 11 algebraic expressions should not take 40 minutes. If dad can't remember his high school math, maybe, but then he should not use it to judge his DD's homework time.

Reading 79 pages? Was that assigned from today to tomorrow? Or was that assigned on Friday, but the student did not open the book over the weekend? Unless I know for sure, I reserve judgment.

Studying for a science test or memorizing foreign language verbs: these are task that will take varying amounts of time, depending on how attentive the student was during class. I do not believe the verbs were assigned to be memorized from one day to another, without verb conjugations having been studied in class. Likewise, I would assume science is studied in science class.

 

We do not have enough information to judge whether this is a lot or not (the math certainly is not and should only take 20 minutes). If the student never heard of verbs in class, the reading assignment was announced today and due tomorrow, and the science to be studied was something never covered in class, than yes, it is a lot. If OTOH, the class had studied verbs for two weeks and this was finally the date when they were due to be memorized, if the reading had been assigned over several days, and if the material to be reviewed for the test had been covered in class, I would consider it a light assignment.

We do not have the facts, and thus any judgment is pointless.

[Spy Car]

And more likely a reality based on statistics than your posts about schools like Paul Revere.

The linked article was about Paul Revere and a Middle School in Manhatten (that probably has a similar demographic to Paul Revere, meaning "upper income.")

 

He is not writing about "typical" schools in AnyTown USA in the first place. He is talking about schools largely populated by the children of the 1%. He is also exaggerating the homework levels at Paul Revere. This is where "local knowledge" helps one see through the BS.

 

There is one local public Middle School (the one we expect to attend) that does have a very elite Science Academy where the homework (and school work) load is fantastic. Students in this program do 6 AP Science classes in 3 years of Middle School. AP Biology, for example, goes though the entire Campbell's College textbook in one semester. It is pretty insane. The kid's life is almost nothing but academics. That is not what we want for our child, and those that choose this have to know what they are in for (and they are well warned in advance). But this sort of thing is highly atypical.

 

Bill

[LucyStoner]

Bill- the existence of good schools doesn't negate the existence of mediocre and worse schools. The fact that there is such a disparity in quality in the same districts based on class speaks to larger issues, educational and otherwise. I went to an excellent public high school myself. Definitely taught critical thinking and strong writing skills and sent kids to elite colleges. Outside of large projects and reading there was little out of class work and most out of class work got done while on campus.

Also, the terrible schooling experiences we had with our older son were at two schools that looked great on the tours. Until your child has attended, there is much you simply can not know about what works and doesn't there. Is the author embellishing? Sure, it is more than likely. Do some elite public schools that serve mostly affluent white people dish up an excessive amount of homework, some that is of dubious quality/purpose? Absolutely. I hear parents saying much the same thing as him all the time.

[HRAAB]

I know there are very good public schools.  I know, not from personal experience, but from talking with people in other parts of the country who have had excellent experiences with public schools.  My own personal experience with public school consists of 1 year of kindergarten and 1 year of high school (10th), and they were abysmal.  Most of us speak from our own experiences, and based on those conversations, there must be many, many abysmal public schools.  I'm not at all anti-public school.  I have two children who would have, I believe, excelled in a very good public school.  Unfortunately, that's not my reality.

 

I'm not opposed to my girls working hard; in fact, we encourage hard work.  I know several homeschooling moms who think I'm mean because of the amount of work I expect out of my girls.  My 7th graders aren't done with their school day until around 4:00.  Just this week I've had to say no to two play dates with other homeschoolers because they wanted to get together right after lunch.  They can't seem to wrap their brains around someone who actually schools through the afternoon.  On the other hand, I want my girls to have free time.  Not only for extra-curricular activities but just to lay around and day dream or to have time to read for the pure pleasure of reading.  Where to find that balance?  I don't know.  I don't want to replicate what the dad related in his article, whether exaggerated or not.  On the other hand, I want them prepared for college, life and all that entails.

 

Right now my dd is on the phone with her girlfriend.  They're trying to plan a movie night for Saturday.  I guess I should go give her the eye, but she worked her tail off this past weekend, had school yesterday, helped a friend with her algebra (which I find a worthwhile activity), studied for a Latin test, and worked on a big paper.  She was in bed by 10:30. She's done math this morning and wrote a paper on time travel through St. Augustine's eyes (???).  Sometimes she just needs to be a goofy teenaged girl and laugh and giggle on the phone.  It's hard to know how much is enough, how hard to push.  I do know that hours spent turning out assignment after assignment does not necessarily equal a  true quality education.    

[Alice]

Well, as a former NYC resident myself, I can attest that most kids are involved in afterschool activities til around 6 or so. Sometimes later. 

 

What I found sad is that although he protests the homework, his younger daughter applied, and will attend, the same school. It's as though on some level he's showing off ("there is SO MUCH HOMEWORK at this school that my daughter doesnt get to bed until midnight and even I can't keep up, and I have to FORCE her to go to sleep but sometimes she sets her alarm for 1 am to do MORE WORK, it's just TOO AWFUL....and how much homework does YOUR kid have?" Again, having lived there, I can assure you that the culture of vanity complaining is alive and well.

 

I had the same thought. I also thought that his mentioning the joint was odd, and it seemed to be for the same reason. “Oh, look at what a cool guy I am. I use pot recreationally and I’m not ashamed to put it in my article.†I thought some of his points were valid but his tone struck me as off. 

 

My oldest being a 5th grader, I really have no idea about what homework is appropriate or normal for a middle school or high school student. I do know that it’s gotten so that every teenager I see for a physical complains of fatigue. I always start with their sleep schedule and usually find that they are sleeping something like 4-5 hours a night routinely. I try and help them see that they need to sleep more but when they tell me about their schedule I’m usually not able to figure out a solution other than “give up this sport that you love†or “give up the job that you needâ€. It seems to me that they are all on a treadmill that they can’t figure out how to get off of. 

[Spy Car]

Bill- the existence of good schools doesn't negate the existence of mediocre and worse schools. The fact that there is such a disparity in quality in the same districts based on class speaks to larger issues, educational and otherwise. I went to an excellent public high school myself. Definitely taught critical thinking and strong writing skills and sent kids to elite colleges. Outside of large projects and reading there was little out of class work and most out of class work got done while on campus.

 

Also, the terrible schooling experiences we had with my son were at two schools that looked great on the tours. Until your child has attended, there is much you simply can not know about what works and doesn't there. Is the author embellishing? Sure, it is more than likely. Do some elite public schools that serve mostly affluent white people dish up an excessive amount of homework, some that is of dubious quality/purpose? Absolutely. I hear parents saying much the same thing as him all the time.

I don't disagree with your points, including the fact that the existence of good schools doesn't negate the existence of mediocre and worse schools. That is absolutely true.

 

The situation at some of the "privileged" schools is you have about half the parents who wished the schools would "lighten up" on the homework, and the other half who think the kids have it "too easy." That's the truth here.

 

I really believe this author is exaggerating so he has a story to write (and one that gets discussed). He succeeded. But I think it is based on "embellishent."

 

Bill

[MBM]

On further observation, Greenfeld might have written this article in an attempt to sell more copies of his book Triburbia: A Novel. His article is garnering a lot of attention. Maybe he's not terribly concerned about his youngest daughter's homework afterall.

 

I smell a marketing move. :)

[MBM]

 

The situation at some of the "privileged" schools is you have about half the parents who wished the schools would "lighten up" on the homework, and the other half who think the kids have it "too easy." That's the truth here.

 

 

Yep. You will also have one student who breezes through homework and another who struggles mightily.

[LibraryLover]

I agree that his tone is off-putting, and it all sounds a bit dramatic. However, I have seen this played out in certain schools, and some children do suffer. Sleep deprivation is common in driven students in 'good' schools.

 

These wealthy kids will go on to 'top' college, no matter, because that is what wealthy kids of educated parents do.  It's often more about the background of the parent than the schools.

 

  I want my child to read daily, and I want her to think, but I also have grave concerns about burning kids out, pushing them to cheat, or having them churn out worksheets and assignments that have not proven to be necessary to 'succeed'. 

[EKS]

Students from Paul Revere Middle School typically go on to the very best universities in the nation. That is the expectation (and the reality). It is extremely unlikely the typical Paul Revere student will end up in remedial classes.

 

I am very familiar with Paul Revere and the area it serves.  It is located in the heart of one of the very wealthiest parts of Los Angeles.  Demographics have a *huge* amount to do with how well students in a particular school do.  It is expected that Paul Revere students will go on to top ranked universities and their parents have the resources to ensure that happens. 

[Spy Car]

I had the same thought. I also thought that his mentioning the joint was odd, and it seemed to be for the same reason. “Oh, look at what a cool guy I am. I use pot recreationally and I’m not ashamed to put it in my article.†I thought some of his points were valid but his tone struck me as off.

 

My oldest being a 5th grader, I really have no idea about what homework is appropriate or normal for a middle school or high school student. I do know that it’s gotten so that every teenager I see for a physical complains of fatigue. I always start with their sleep schedule and usually find that they are sleeping something like 4-5 hours a night routinely. I try and help them see that they need to sleep more but when they tell me about their schedule I’m usually not able to figure out a solution other than “give up this sport that you love†or “give up the job that you needâ€. It seems to me that they are all on a treadmill that they can’t figure out how to get off of.

We had a parent at our school, who is a Professor at a local University where she specilizes in Education and Psychology, speak to this issue and her experience with college students who had the same complaints, and especially the feeling that they were always pressed for time.

 

She had the college students do a little experiment where they blacked out the hours in the week where they had committments that were sacrosanct. If they had classes, or work, or hours of worship, they got blacked out. To many students suprise, most had many more "free hours" than they realized.

 

Then they looked at what was actually happening in their lives that made them feel "time stressed." The short answer is most felt an obsessive need to maintain contact with "social media." so instead of an hour studying, it was 5 minutes of studying, then flipping over to Facebook, Tweets, IMs, Texts, and emails. That was where the stress (and feeling there was always a time urgency in their lives was coming from) and not necessarily from the demands of work and school (not that some students don't work long hours and/or take a heavy class load).

 

I thought it was pretty interesting.

 

Bill

 

ETA: As part of the "experiment" she had students pick times where they could ( and could not) click over to "social media." Most or the students self-reported this was an almost impossible task for them hold to, as the pull of social media was so strong. To say they were "addicted" to social media and experiencing very real problems of "attention-defict" would not be overstating the problem.

[Spy Car]

I am very familiar with Paul Revere and the area it serves. It is located in the heart of one of the very wealthiest parts of Los Angeles. Demographics have a *huge* amount to do with how well students in a particular school do. It is expected that Paul Revere students will go on to top ranked universities and their parents have the resources to ensure that happens.

Exactly correct.

 

Bill

[nmoira]

The author claims this is a typical week. If so, the number of tests is striking.

 

Monday:

Angela's Ashes, 79 pages, pull out three "powerful powerful" quotes and write a sentence or two about the significance of each

study for Tuesday Earth Science test (topic: minerals)

simplify 11 algebra equations

 

Tuesday:

45 pages Angela's Ashes

12 Algebra equations

1-2 pages written Humanities project in the style of The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian

study for Wednesday Spanish test (Esmee did this in the afternoon)

 

Wednesday:

7 Algebra equations (polynomials, changing from standard to scientific notation)

Earth Science - the rock cycle (plus a worksheet requiring a reinterpretation and annotation of the rock cycle not given to the father)

study for Humanities test  on Industrialization (presumably Thursday, though not specified), with study guide

more Angela's Ashes (page number not specified)

 

Thursday:

Algebra - number of questions not specified, but less than 1/2 hour

translate song lyrics from Spanish to English - I'm not clear whether they used Google Translate

more Angela's Ashes (page number not specified)

 

Friday/weekend:

15 algebra questions

study for Tuesday algebra midterm, the second "midterm" of the year

study for Monday Spanish test

Angela's Ashes (page number not specified)

 

 

[regentrude]

The author claims this is a typical week. If so, the number of tests is striking.

 

I noticed that, too. But imagine the outcry if students had only two tests per semester in each subject and the grade were determined mainly based on those... parents would complain bitterly. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

[nmoira]

And for reading, even if it does take an hour a day, that doesn't seem excessive.  If we are all classical educators here, and think that high school freshman should be reading the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Aeneid, Shakespeare and Milton freshman year, an hour a day of reading is about on schedule.  I read complaints here all the time about public school students who only read two novels a semester.  If you think it is reasonable to read a novel every two weeks, that's going to take some time to get done.  Again, how much reading time do you consider reasonable?  How many novels should a high school freshman read in honors English in a semester?

 

What is reasonable depends upon the entire workload and depth of study. She is taking English *and* Humanities. We don't have a good sense of the overall Humanities workload, but my Humanities classes in high school had more reading than English/Language arts.

[kiana]

I noticed that, too. But imagine the outcry if students had only two tests per semester in each subject and the grade were determined mainly based on those... parents would complain bitterly. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

 

I so wish we could use this model. Alas.

[nmoira]

I noticed that, too. But imagine the outcry if students had only two tests per semester in each subject and the grade were determined mainly based on those... parents would complain bitterly. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.

 

I don't think we have enough information. FWIW, I'd consider it a waste of time to take up an entire Spanish class per week in written testing, especially when in-class conversation is the one time the kids can't fake it... but we don't know if that's what's happening.

 She is taking English *and* Humanities.

 

I'm not sure about that.  I think that Humanities is one class that subsumes both English and History (which strikes me as very WTM...), and the the Angela's Ashes reading is for Humanities.