Moxie Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I've been low-carb for three years. The smell of bacon makes me want to puke. I CAN NOT eat another egg. CAN NOT!! I'm sick of my favorite cheese. I want a bowl of Frosted Flakes. Just pour it in a bowl, add milk, breakfast is served!! I want oatmeal with brown sugar. I want to grab a handful of crackers to munch on. I want popcorn!!! I want a nice steamy mug of hot chocolate at the end of a long day. I can't have them so I won't. Blah. I'm skipping breakfast this morning. Maybe I'll be hungry enough by lunch that YET ANOTHER salad won't sound so...blah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 This is the exact reason why I can't be truly low carb but have to use some moderation. I got so sick of eggs that the smell made me nauseated. Yet, that is how I lose weight, keep it off, and feel good. I do eat steel cut oats, popcorn, a slice of bread, etc. but only one a day. If I have oats for breakfast (with fruit and all the toppings), I don't touch any other grains all day. If I want a bowl of buttered popcorn in the evening, I stay away from other carbs during the day. If it's someone's birthday, I eat cake. If we go to an Italian restaurant, I eat pasta. Sometimes I have a slice of whole grain bread slathered with butter for dessert. And I allow myself a glass of wine or a beer in the evening. I do stay away from white bread and rice and most pastries/desserts unless it's a special occasion. I'm keeping the weight off, still losing very slowly, and not hating it as badly as I did. If I didn't use moderation, I wouldn't last on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I feel your pain. But I'll take a rib eye steak over a bowl of Frosted Flakes any day, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I'm not an Atkins expert, and I haven't read the book for some time, but I thought after you got out of the first couple phases there was some wiggle room. It wasn't totally NO CARBS. It seemed somewhat reasonable. I hate Frosted Flakes, too, but I want a baked potato with the steak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I'm not an Atkins expert, and I haven't read the book for some time, but I thought after you got out of the first couple phases there was some wiggle room. It wasn't totally NO CARBS. It seemed somewhat reasonable. I hate Frosted Flakes, too, but I want a baked potato with the steak Atkins is *low* carbohydrates, not *no* carb. :-) When people reach their goal weight, they know how many carbs they can have daily/weekly. I don't have to have the baked potato. A fresh, hot roll or biscuit, dripping with butter...yeah. Mashed potatoes with gravy is soul food to me. I spoil myself at Thanksgiving and Christmas by having some (I make really good gravy), along with my grandmother's buttermilk biscuits. Oh, and sometimes Quiver's cinnamon rolls. Yum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlessedMom Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 :grouphug: I completely understand!! When I get to that point I try hard to focus on the positives that I DO love as a results of my choice to live a low carb life style! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoggirl Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 There are many good breakfast recipes at realsustenance.com I made her newest waffle recipe this weekend. Not exactly low-carb because there is some tapioca starch in them, but I won't eat them every day. More almond flour than tapioca starch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmith Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I did very low carb for a few weeks, and I thought I was going to puke if I saw another egg! I ended up switching to WW, even though I know low carb is the way to go for me. I just couldn't take it any more! I've been losing well on WW, but I'm going low carb for a few days to get through a plateau. I thought that eggs wouldn't bother me after a few months off lc/hf, but I could barely get them down!! :ack2: I think they are permanently ruined for me, like cranberry juice after a UTI that wouldn't go away, and cream cheese and jelly sandwiches from the month my mom made school lunches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I would be a Vegan over following anything low carb. I can't stand low carb. I feel lethargic, sick, weak, and feel like I want to puke often. I have also just found out I have an allergy to egg whites and milk. It isn't a bad allergy, but it is an allergy. I need to watch what eggs or milk products I eat. So, there you have it......and, I have yet to meet anyone who ate only fruits and vegetables tell me they got fat on them alone. You might consider switching to Paleo or Whole Foods eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 i also think for some ppl who do well on low carb, avoiding gluten or grains is a close second (tho some have trouble w potatoes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I don't believe in giving up whole food groups. I don't find it to be a feasible long term diet. I have given up wheat and gluten, secondary to health issues. As a result, I have lost 15 lbs in a month, and at least two inches from my waist. I went from 150 lbs to 135. I am 5'3" tall, so it really shows. I'm convinced GMO wheat is the devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 However, I will add that if you just want some cereal and hot chocolate, you can get them in low carb versions here: http://www.dietdirect.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodhaven Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Wow, did you say you have been doing this for 3 years??!! I am so impressed! I certainly can't blame you for being sick of eggs and cheese! You have done good! I tried to go LC/HF and got so dizzy I couldn't stand it. After 3 or 4 days I went back to adding in some carbs just to get my balance back. It still took a few more days before I stopped being dizzy in the mornings! I would go strictly LC/HF if I could stand it just long enough to get past my body adjusting to the new diet. I'm now trying to do it more slowly - cutting back on carbs little by little to hopefully avoid the dizzy haze. : ) I hope you can come up with some compromise that will keep you going! Perhaps a few carbs now and then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I'm doing Whole30, which is strict paleo. Eliminating processed junk and sugar has been very good for me, but it does allow moderate amounts of starchy vegetables and fruit, so it's not really no or super low carb. I also don't plan on doing it long term, but I might do a substantial portion of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I tired Atkins three times - I am one of the sad souls who could NOT enjoy "wiggle room" not matter how long I stayed with it - if I had ANY carbs over 5 (points? I forget the measurement) I was out of ketosis and had to enjoy the headache of getting back on track. So I stopped. I just eat a LOT of veggies, fruits, whole grains (and not too much of them) and lean meats and do strength training at home. If I have ice cream or something "naughtly" at least I do not have to get back in ketosis to resume my diet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 That's so strange, y'all, that you feel unwell when you do Atkins. I feel just fine. I don't lose weight--stupid under-medicated low-thyroid issues--but I've never felt the least bit weird giving up carbs. Whole wheat works like a laxative on me o_0 so as much as I love my whole-wheat bread (made from flour I milled myself, mixed in my Bosch, baked in my own oven, yummo) and other whole-grain foods, I cannot have them. It isn'ta gluten issue, only a whole-wheat issue (bleached white four products don't bug me as much). I eliminated almost all dairy while doing Medifast and discovered that dairy is indeed a mucus-causing food, so I'm much better without dairy, as well (only cream in my tea daily, and some dairy, such as cheese, when we eat out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saja1029 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Oh, I hear you. I have been eating LCHF for 15 months. I am sick of bacon......who gets sick of bacon??? I love bacon. But, I am tired of it. Part of my problem is that I am picky, so that limits my choices. I have been at a weight that I am comfortable with for about 4 months now. I have started to add some more carbs in here and there. Maybe some rye bread, pizza, etc. I still stay away from pasta, white/wheat bread, rice, and what I call pointless snacks (pretzels, crackers, etc.). I am now focusing on eating better in general - more veggies, some fruit, and trying to eat things with worth (if that makes sense!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I personally feel GREAT on low carb and lousy on WW. What I've observed about any diet style is that you'll need to give up SOMETHING that at some point, you'll crave. On low carb, I miss fruit. On WW, I missed a meaningful amount of protein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 My son is on a pretty strict paleo diet, but it's one that does allow a "splurge" day once/week after the first 90 days or so. The splurge is supposed to be good because it causes some spike in something that keeps your metabolism working well. As you can tell, I really don't know very much about it at all, except that he gets to splurge! He always times his splurge to fall on a weekend day or some special event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Going low carb has never made me feel not good. In fact, I feel better. What does make me feel terrible is when I don't get enough protein. I second the idea about eating dinner leftovers for breakfast. When I used to eat pancakes or waffles (which I love) I would feel lightheaded and sick within a couple hours. If I eat protein for breakfast, I feel good and have energy until lunch time. I usually try to make extra dinner so I can have it for breakfast or at least lunch the next day. I have huge issues digesting grains with my hiatal hernia so that's the main reason I started eating this way. Then I started losing weight and feeling better. It's the most realistic diet I've tried yet as long as I don't become too legalistic about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I'm reading Trim, Healthy Mama right now because it seems to subscribe to the way I know I need to eat -- lower carb, protein at each meal. I'm not really interested in losing much, if any, weight at this point, but I'd like to be able to maintain my weight without starving and I thought I'd get some meal ideas from the book and maybe improve my health some. Not anywhere finished with the book yet, but so far it makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I am one of those weird people who doesn't even really care for bacon in the first place! Seriously. I don't really like bacon or any pork product. Makes me a not so good Southerner, but I honestly don't care for pork in any form. I eat it when people serve it to me to be polite (part of my missionary kid upbringing) but I don't buy it or choose it, ever! If I choose sausages, I choose chicken based sausages. Oh, I hear you. I have been eating LCHF for 15 months. I am sick of bacon......who gets sick of bacon??? I love bacon. But, I am tired of it. Part of my problem is that I am picky, so that limits my choices. I have been at a weight that I am comfortable with for about 4 months now. I have started to add some more carbs in here and there. Maybe some rye bread, pizza, etc. I still stay away from pasta, white/wheat bread, rice, and what I call pointless snacks (pretzels, crackers, etc.). I am now focusing on eating better in general - more veggies, some fruit, and trying to eat things with worth (if that makes sense!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 With points, can't you just choose more protein based points? The only time I did ok on WW was when they used to have the exchange system. 2-3 fruits, unlimited veggies, 2 breads, 4-5 ounces of protein, 2 milk servings, etc.... Otherwise, I don't lose one ounce on WW. I personally feel GREAT on low carb and lousy on WW. What I've observed about any diet style is that you'll need to give up SOMETHING that at some point, you'll crave. On low carb, I miss fruit. On WW, I missed a meaningful amount of protein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 With points, can't you just choose more protein based points? The only time I did ok on WW was when they used to have the exchange system. 2-3 fruits, unlimited veggies, 2 breads, 4-5 ounces of protein, 2 milk servings, etc.... Otherwise, I don't lose one ounce on WW. I tried that. I was still shaky, irritable and didn't lose. My leader didn't believe me. I was 100% on program, eating supposedly healthy, mostly non processed food. It was then that I realized that the calories in/calories out model wasn't the answer for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Everyone is different. Perhaps you would benefit from a balanced diet of some carbs and some protein. If you don't care for heavy meat (like steak), try some chicken, turkey or fish. I could live on fish and rice or quinoa but then my Scandinavian heritage may have something to do with this. My dh, on the other hand must have some meat or he is low on energy. These one-size-fits-all diets are always frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evergreen State Sue Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 I got the Trim Healthy Mama book. In general I like what they are saying, but I have found it hard to figure it out. I wish they had a easy sample to follow for a couple of weeks and then maybe I could take it from there. I got so excited about making one of their smoothies, but my blender couldn't handle the ice cubes and I kept having to spit out little chunks of ice while I was trying to enjoy this healthy drink. Not! I wouldn't mind all the special food products to eliminate sugar and wheat if it were easier to follow. About the same time, dh got The Food Lovers Fat Loss System. The main rules on their program is (1) Eat every 2-3 hours to boost your metabolism. Breakfast within the hour after you wake up. Snack. Lunch. Snack. Dinner. Snack at least one hour before bed. (2) Protein at every meal combined with either slow carbs or fast carbs or both. As with most food plans to lose weight, portion control, drinking water, and exercising are key. This one so far is easier to follow, and we are losing weight. I've never been on a healthy plan for three years in a row. Congrats to you, Moxie, and the rest of you for sticking with a healthy plan for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I got the Trim Healthy Mama book. In general I like what they are saying, but I have found it hard to figure it out. I wish they had a easy sample to follow for a couple of weeks and then maybe I could take it from there. I got so excited about making one of their smoothies, but my blender couldn't handle the ice cubes and I kept having to spit out little chunks of ice while I was trying to enjoy this healthy drink. Not! I wouldn't mind all the special food products to eliminate sugar and wheat if it were easier to follow. About the same time, dh got The Food Lovers Fat Loss System. The main rules on their program is (1) Eat every 2-3 hours to boost your metabolism. Breakfast within the hour after you wake up. Snack. Lunch. Snack. Dinner. Snack at least one hour before bed. (2) Protein at every meal combined with either slow carbs or fast carbs or both. As with most food plans to lose weight, portion control, drinking water, and exercising are key. This one so far is easier to follow, and we are losing weight. I've never been on a healthy plan for three years in a row. Congrats to you, Moxie, and the rest of you for sticking with a healthy plan for life. I agree about the Trim Healthy Mama book being more complicated than I had hoped. I'm still going to give it a try, but I'll keep the other book you mentioned in mind in case. My goal is to keep my blood sugar level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrygal Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 My homemade bread and fruit keep me from being true low-carber. I don't understand how fruit can be 'bad', especially while picking your own blueberries!! I'd love just to guzzle chocolate milk some days, but I know I'd feel like carp after. Maybe just find some new recipes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted August 15, 2013 Author Share Posted August 15, 2013 Yeah, I spent some time with my cookbooks today, so that helps. I also had a bowl of raisin bran. It was awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 My homemade bread and fruit keep me from being true low-carber. I don't understand how fruit can be 'bad', especially while picking your own blueberries!! I'd love just to guzzle chocolate milk some days, but I know I'd feel like carp after. Maybe just find some new recipes. Some fruit has more carbohydrates than others. On Atkins, most berries and melons are "safe." Oranges are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I'm sorry. :( For what it's worth, I have made some fantastic "paleo" desserts lately using fruit, almond flour, tapioca starch, coconut flour, etc. Would those be okay? (Says the woman sipping red wine and eating cheese and GF cracker). Sometimes, I just eat some carbs but in controlled moderation. How about a little brownie in a mug? Or do you refuse honey too? I've been low-carb for three years. The smell of bacon makes me want to puke. I CAN NOT eat another egg. CAN NOT!! I'm sick of my favorite cheese. I want a bowl of Frosted Flakes. Just pour it in a bowl, add milk, breakfast is served!! I want oatmeal with brown sugar. I want to grab a handful of crackers to munch on. I want popcorn!!! I want a nice steamy mug of hot chocolate at the end of a long day. I can't have them so I won't. Blah. I'm skipping breakfast this morning. Maybe I'll be hungry enough by lunch that YET ANOTHER salad won't sound so...blah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 My homemade bread and fruit keep me from being true low-carber. I don't understand how fruit can be 'bad', especially while picking your own blueberries!! I'd love just to guzzle chocolate milk some days, but I know I'd feel like carp after. Maybe just find some new recipes. Unsweetened chocolate almond milk does the trick for me, ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Rose Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I've been LCHF for 1 1/2 years now and I still like bacon AND eggs. I must not be eating as many eggs as other low carbers. Yesterday I was even thinking how much I love the food I'm eating. I have no desire to eat any of the carby stuff. One of the things that really helps me when I'm in a rut food-wise is to spend time on the lc blogs. I have a long list of blogs that I check at least once a week for new recipes. I copy and save anything I think I might want to try into MasterCook and then do a search in MC for a recipe for whatever it is I'm in the mood to eat. Hope your frustration passes soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 Oh, and almond meal pancakes. I plan on making some of these soon for a snack -- maybe with berries and some coconut oil on top? Or maybe use the pancake as a taco for something. Hmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I eat an omelette most days, but it's only 1/2 cup egg whites. The rest is chopped ham, shredded cheese, onion, mushroom, zucchini, spinach and tomato topped with avocado. I truly love this. I've been LCHF for 1 1/2 years now and I still like bacon AND eggs. I must not be eating as many eggs as other low carbers. Yesterday I was even thinking how much I love the food I'm eating. I have no desire to eat any of the carby stuff. One of the things that really helps me when I'm in a rut food-wise is to spend time on the lc blogs. I have a long list of blogs that I check at least once a week for new recipes. I copy and save anything I think I might want to try into MasterCook and then do a search in MC for a recipe for whatever it is I'm in the mood to eat. Hope your frustration passes soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I've found some good ideas here: http://www.delightedmomma.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 I understand. I get very tired of eggs, and I don't particularly like bacon or sausage (and daily doesn't fit into the budget anyway). I get bored with salads and meats too. Sometimes I really just want to have a plate of pasta and twirl the noodles around my fork. (I do like spaghetti squash done as noodles, though, but it's not quite the same.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted August 15, 2013 Share Posted August 15, 2013 What would happen if you added just a cup of steel cut oats to a few mornings a week? They're just so satisfying and you can put them in the crockpot the night before. Just make the week's allotment, divide up the portions, and reheat when you're ready. You really can't have ANY carbs AT ALL? ETA: It turns out I am ridiculously open to food suggestions. Because of this thread, I now have oatmeal in the crockpot for breakfast AND I'm drinking a glass of chocolate milk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I got the Trim Healthy Mama book. In general I like what they are saying, but I have found it hard to figure it out. I wish they had a easy sample to follow for a couple of weeks and then maybe I could take it from there. I got so excited about making one of their smoothies, but my blender couldn't handle the ice cubes and I kept having to spit out little chunks of ice while I was trying to enjoy this healthy drink. Not! I wouldn't mind all the special food products to eliminate sugar and wheat if it were easier to follow. About the same time, dh got The Food Lovers Fat Loss System. The main rules on their program is (1) Eat every 2-3 hours to boost your metabolism. Breakfast within the hour after you wake up. Snack. Lunch. Snack. Dinner. Snack at least one hour before bed. (2) Protein at every meal combined with either slow carbs or fast carbs or both. As with most food plans to lose weight, portion control, drinking water, and exercising are key. This one so far is easier to follow, and we are losing weight. I've never been on a healthy plan for three years in a row. Congrats to you, Moxie, and the rest of you for sticking with a healthy plan for life. Well, after weeding through the Trim Healthy Mama Book and deciding to dive in and just try to get on board for breakfast, I don't think it is going to work for me. I made the chocolate muffin in the mug and little grilled cheese sandwiches with the bread in a mug recipe. One, the muffin wasn't disgusting, but it certainly wasn't good and two, the bread was disgusting. Also, my body is funny in that, I know I need to eat protein at every meal and I have to watch my sugar intake very closely or I feel like crap, but on the other hand, if I get too low carb, which I think these breads and muffins are, I feel absolutely terrible as well. I like that they are picking such healthy foods -- flax seed, almond flour, coconut oil -- for these recipes, and I could deal with the muffin, but it makes me feel so terrible to eat that way. I tried South Beach a number of years ago and that was too low carb for me. I stayed on it 3 weeks and finally gave in because I was such an anxious, irritable mess. I'm going to check out the book your husband has, but it kills me that I wasted all this time and money on THM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 After 3 years you're probably craving carbs because you're vitamin deficient. Probably magnesium, some of the B vitamins that only come from grains, and who knows what else, and the sources of those that your body knows best are carbs. There's a group called CRON (Calorie Restriction Optimal Nutrition I think) that has a free food diary ap and software to record your exact nutrients and see what is missing. I bet if you write down what you eat on an average day you're going to see pretty clearly what you need to add to your diet to stop the cravings. Keep in mind you don't need to eat breakfast food at breakfast, too. You could have a huge bowl of green beans smothered in butter with a squeeze of lemon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 My breakfast since January has been Bulletproof Coffee. I don't think I'd be able to pull off LCHF without that. I only have eggs for breakfast when I'm travelling (when making BPC is difficult). I sometimes have breakfast sausage links for a mid-morning snack or an early start to lunch. Since I don't have eggs for breakfast, I'll have them once in a while for lunch - I do get tired of them easily (hint, sprinkle scrambled egg with Costco bacon bits while cooking). When I don't feel my best on LCHF, either I cheated and ate too many carbs or didn't eat enough fat or enough protein (enough protein is a normal, moderate amount), OR, more likely, I need some electrolytes/sodium. Supplementing electrolytes generally and sodium specifically, even potassium once in a while, has been absolutely critical for me. I've been supplementing magnesium since before going LCHF. My weakness continues to be chocolate. Sometimes I "save up" my carbs (even though I don't always count them carefully anyway) for a piece of lower-sugar cheesecake that has lots of fat. The Cheesecake Diet :) Lately I noticed that when I have a very busy day and eat lunch on the run (say, a couple breakfast sausage links and several handfuls of almonds, LOL), I lose weight more quickly, I guess due to the minimal carbs. Another yummy breakfast/lunch: chicken apple sausage, sliced in a pan with olive oil (or if you're really lazy, like me, just microwaved for a minute and eaten off a fork) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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