Can a husband refuse to allow wife to take their child on an educational trip?

[Pen]

"Please do not quote from this, since I plan to come back and delete it in a few days.

 

A person I know said (in USA) her husband told her she could not take their daughter to visit out-of-state relatives during the summer unless he gave his permission ..."

 

-------------------------------------

 

Hi, thanks to all who contributed to my understanding.

 

I do not know what is going on in the marriage--probably it is a lot more complex and perhaps different than anything anyone has guessed at here.

 

But as to the basic question which was, is it true that a husband needs to give permission for a wife to take a child to another state within the USA, that seems clearly answered by a number of you.

 

Thanks again!

Edited May 16, 2013 by Pen

[MeghanL]

She doesn't need his permission when she has full joint custody of the child (which seems to be the case since they are married & both biological parents).

However, with him taking such a strong stance, I would advise not to go. I'm not sure if the wife has her own income, but he could certainly refuse to fund the trip.

[zoobie]

Get a lawyer. Yesterday.

 

I have never heard of any restrictions on travel within the US without a custody agreement at play, but that situation sounds extremely complicated and unhealthy. Alarm bells galore.

[Crimson Wife]

Don't get in the middle of another couple's marital problems unless you think there is an abusive situation (which doesn't seem to be the case here). You're only hearing one side of the story and perhaps you would feel very differently if you had heard it from the husband's POV.

 

If you suspect abuse, then yes, advise her to get a lawyer. If not, then MYOB.

[Scarlett]

Ugh. What a horrible situation. There is no law saying she can't take child out if state. Even in the case of a divorce the custodial parent is allowed to take the child out of state for vacation. The fact that he is trying to convince her it would be against the law screams controlling husband to me.

 

But we are not there. I would inform her of the facts (no such law) but not encourage her to defy him although that is my reflex response.

[Χά�ων]

Don't get in the middle of another couple's marital problems unless you think there is an abusive situation (which doesn't seem to be the case here). You're only hearing one side of the story and perhaps you would feel very differently if you had heard it from the husband's POV.

 

If you suspect abuse, then yes, advise her to get a lawyer. If not, then MYOB.

 

See, this screams abuse to me. It does not have to be physical to be abuse. I would tell mom to document document document and get an attorney. She should seek counciling at the very least.

[Mandy in TN]

This is a basic marital disagreement. My dh says very, very little regarding homeschooling curriculum, extracurricular activities, trips to my relatives' homes, etc. He basically has no opinion. He just expects me to figure it out and to let him know what's up in a timely fashion. If dh felt very, very strongly about a situation, then I would not disregard his opinion.

 

Without knowing the whole story, I have no advice at all and wouldn't touch this situation with a 10 foot pole. For all we know the relatives that she is going to visit are abusive or live in some way that would cause him to not want his dd in that situation.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

dw: I plan to go to my relative Janey's house this summer. She is such a great teacher and has offered to help dd with school work.

 

dh: Absolutely, not. No way, no how is my dd going to stay at Janey's house. She may be a great teacher, but her husband has been in and out of rehab for drug use and I know he has a violent temper. I don't want dd anywhere near that. I absolutely forbid it and don't mention it again. I am so livid just thinking about dd being it that house that this is just not open for discussion.

 

At this point dw calls her friend and asks if her dh can forbid her to go on vacation with her dd.

 

See the dh doesn't necessarily have to be abusive for this situation to occur. Now, he may be for all I know, but I simply do not have enough info to make that call.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Stay out of it. Be supportive without giving advice and keep your opinion of the husband to yourself. Assure her that her husband is misinformed about the law and then suggest she seek out the advice of a lawyer if she feels it is an issue of abuse. If you value the friendship and want to keep the friendship then stay as nuetral as you can.

[stripe]

I know people where the wife never travels alone, and I think it's rather bizarre, but I don't feel in a position to get involved unless the woman is complaining or is actively being harmed (even if she thought the abuse were okay). I deliberately avoided marrying a man like this, and I am ever so happy as a result.

[happyhomemaker]

She has every legal right to take the children wherever she wants.

 

I would try very hard not to take sides though. There are many instances where a spouse might be adamant about a child not going to a particular place. Maybe the mom's medical issues have been a problem on a previous trip. Maybe he is very uncomfortable about the relatives for some reason. Maybe he didn't actually forbid her from going and that's just the wording she used to gain sympathy. Or maybe her husband really is a controlling jack$ss, but that's just one possibility out of many.

[AimeeM]

See, this screams abuse to me. It does not have to be physical to be abuse. I would tell mom to document document document and get an attorney. She should seek counciling at the very least.

Personally, I'm not willing to see *abuse* in this situation when we don't know the entire story. If, from what the OP said, he doesn't want her to take the daughter because of a medical condition where it would be difficult for her to function/care for the child while away... it doesn't sound completely unreasonable.

There are specific relatives that my husband would absolutely forbid me from taking the children to see directly (as in, to their homes), but that is for safety reasons. He is their father - if he feels something is a detriment to their wellbeing, he has every right to have a strong voice in that. JMO.

[Miss Mousie]

If I were in your shoes, I would say to friend: "Gee, I'm sorry you and your husband are in disagreement. I hope you two find a way to work it out soon." End of discussion.

[Scarlett]

dw: I plan to go to my relative Janey's house this summer. She is such a great teacher and has offered to help dd with school work.

 

dh: Absolutely, not. No way, no how is my dd going to stay at Janey's house. She may be a great teacher, but her husband has been in and out of rehab for drug use and I know he has a violent temper. I don't want dd anywhere near that. I absolutely forbid it and don't mention it again. I am so livid just thinking about dd being it that house that this is just not open for discussion.

 

At this point dw calls her friend and asks if her dh can forbid her to go on vacation with her dd.

 

See the dh doesn't necessarily have to be abusive for this situation to occur. Now, he may be for all I know, but I simply do not have enough info to make that call.

 

 

Except this is not what the op said. She said he told her it was illegal for her to take their child out of state without permission.

 

 

[PachiSusan]

edited for privacy

[Scarlett]

Hmmm. My SIL is divorced with joint custody and it IS a matter of losing custody if she takes the kids out of state without his permission. I wonder if it's a case by case situation or state by state.

 

 

I can't speak for all states but I was specifically told I do not need my xhs permission to take my child out of state on vacation. I honestly do not believe that is required in any state.

[PachiSusan]

I can't speak for all states but I was specifically told I do not need my xhs permission to take my child out of state on vacation. I honestly do not believe that is required in any state.

 

 

edited for privacy issues.

[swellmomma]

I have no clue about laws in the states. In my paperwork I don't need permission to even leave teh country with the kids, but he needs it from me to leave the city with them. Generally speaking, you only need permission if you are leaving the country. To cross the state lines especially when the couple is married there is no law. This is not a custody issue and even if she left to her relatives home and he called the cops they would tell him there is nothing they could do, there is no law being broken. She is going on vacation not kidnapping her own kid for goodness sakes.

 

As far as you, do not offer any advice because it always comes back to bite you in the arse later. You could say "oh I thought it was just for out of country trips you need that, maybe you should ask someone who knows for sure like a lawyer" and leave it at that if you want. Otherwise no comment on the husband (because once it works out between them, you get labelled as teh one who hated her dh), or the situation as a whole. You can be a friendly ear for her "Oh I am sorry you 2 can't come to an agreement, that must be really frustrating" but not "what a controlling jerk, you can do whatever the heck you want, how dare he claim it is illegal" (even if that is how you are feeling.

[elegantlion]

Since they're married, divorce scenarios don't apply. While it may not be illegal, he may be using fear tactics as there have been stories of a spouse filing kidnapping charges when a child is taken out of state without permission - I've heard of them usually farfetched complicated stories, can't recall details on any. He could make her vacation less than joyous just by being an a$$ (as far as I know that is not illegal yet). Since we don't know the whole story, there is no way to conclude if he is being protective, controlling, or just a jerk.

[JudoMom]

 

 

Except this is not what the op said. She said he told her it was illegal for her to take their child out of state without permission.

 

I must be missing something, because I don't see where the OP says the dh actually says this, just that he won't let her.

[Teachin'Mine]

You can not leave the country with your child without the spouse's permission, but I've never heard of a restriction within the US.

[Pen]

The implication as she understood it was that he meant she could not do so legally without his permission.

[JBJones]

Get a lawyer. Yesterday.

 

I have never heard of any restrictions on travel within the US without a custody agreement at play, but that situation sounds extremely complicated and unhealthy. Alarm bells galore.

 

Wow. That wouldn't fly here at all. He sounds EXTREMELY controlling. Hopefully, your friend will escape THAT life. Blah.

[Roadrunner]

 

 

Well, then it's specific to my SIL's case because I have seen the paperwork. In fact, when they first divorced, my BIL had to come with us to Europe because the custody wasn't ironed out yet and the judge decreed that the children could not go if the Father didn't go with them or sign a paper letting them go. He refused to sign the paper and my FIL paid for him to go on the trip as well. It was hell.

 

 

Out of the country is a different situation. Yes, you can't take a child out of the country without a consent of a former spouse. You can't even get a child's passport without having both parents present (divorced or still married). I am sure the fear is that if anybody wanted to abduct a child for custody reasons (and this has happened many times), it would be difficult to get the child back given family laws in other countries, especially if the parent holds local citizenship.

[JBJones]

Wow. That wouldn't fly here at all. He sounds EXTREMELY controlling. Hopefully, your friend will escape THAT life. Blah. I totally agree with zoobie.

 

[TraceyS/FL]

I can't speak for all states but I was specifically told I do not need my xhs permission to take my child out of state on vacation. I honestly do not believe that is required in any state.

Custody agreements can specify anything the parties feel is necessary. While there isn't a "law" about it in the state, the state upholds what the paperwork says.

 

We have to give advanced notice for any overnight travel, with an itinerary and way to contact the kids. I would have preferred permission for out of state visits, but we forgot to bring it up at trial.

 

A friends does have it written that the other parent needs to consent to out of state travel.

 

Different situations will have different needs.....

 

 

To the OP - i'd just not get involved as suggested.

[AimeeM]

I can't speak for all states but I was specifically told I do not need my xhs permission to take my child out of state on vacation. I honestly do not believe that is required in any state.

 

 

nm

[Alte Veste Academy]

dw: I plan to go to my relative Janey's house this summer. She is such a great teacher and has offered to help dd with school work.

 

dh: Absolutely, not. No way, no how is my dd going to stay at Janey's house. She may be a great teacher, but her husband has been in and out of rehab for drug use and I know he has a violent temper. I don't want dd anywhere near that. I absolutely forbid it and don't mention it again. I am so livid just thinking about dd being it that house that this is just not open for discussion.

 

At this point dw calls her friend and asks if her dh can forbid her to go on vacation with her dd.

 

See the dh doesn't necessarily have to be abusive for this situation to occur. Now, he may be for all I know, but I simply do not have enough info to make that call.

 

 

I agree. There could be any number of perfectly reasonable scenarios in which dad would want the DD to stay home.

 

Also, how long is the trip? Maybe instead of being an abusive, controlling ogre, the dad doesn't actually want his DD to be gone for a long time (a month...a couple of months...the whole summer...who knows). Maybe he dotes on her. Maybe mom is a drinker. Maybe she is depressed. Maybe...whatever!

 

I will say this. How many posters would be livid and assume abuse in the reverse situation? Say someone here, the wife/mother, posts that her DH wants to take the kid(s) on a trip but she doesn't want him to. Hard to imagine a bunch of posts about what an abusive, controlling person the wife is...

[Alte Veste Academy]

And as to what I would actually say to her, my first choice would be nothing or a simple, "I hope you guys can work it out." My second choice (if I just couldn't help myself) would be, "Why does he say he doesn't want her to go?"

 

ETA: I will add that even if it isn't illegal, it is a bad idea. Bad for the marriage, bad for parent/child relationships for one to go against another's wishes... If she is abused, she should seek help for that. If not, she should acknowledge and respect her husband's equal rights to make decisions for the child. She should look for compromise or make other plans.

[Kathryn]

Answering only the question posed: it is not illegal in the US for one spouse to take the children to another state without the other spouse's permission. Divorce decrees can specify this, but when the parents are married, joint legal and physical custody is presumed.

[Lilaclady]

It is a sad situation but since we don't have all the info from the husband, it will be best not to get involved.

[Arcadia]

Legally, your friend can take her child out of state as long as they are married. However I'll stay out of this mess and not say anything since we do not know how dependable the relatives are, mum had never travelled with the child, and at eleven years old, I can say I will be good but be rebellious when the mood strike. If a very responsible relative fly over and fly with the mum and daughter to wherever they are going, the dad might be more at ease with the suggestion. We just flew back last year to meet in-laws, parents and other relatives, it was hyper draining even for my hubby who has no disabilities. No way would he want me to make the trip alone with our kids and he is not controlling. He would just be worried sick.

[Lindi]

There may be extenuating circumstances in the husband's favor but the fact remains, in the US a husband doesn't have a "right" to keep his wife from taking their child on vacation to another state unless there is a court order. And he cannot prevent it by withholding money because no matter who works outside the home, money in a marriage is held in common. I know there are people who believe wives should always submit to their husband's opinions but legally (and imho, ethically) the very fact that he seems to think he has this right (and she seems to agree) indicates there are real problems here. I do not believe husbands rule, but I do believe in mutual submission and in cooperation. If my husband really didn't think it was good for me to take a child somewhere, I would very carefully weigh the situation. But I'd never say, "He won't allow me." And he'd never say, "I won't allow her." I'm a wife, not a slave robot. We share a life, we don't just live his.

[Χά�ων]

The child is 11 years of age? And the concern is mom may not be able to manage on a trip despite being the primary cook and care provider at home? Hmmm. If the disability is a disorder that limits moms ability to drive and they will be taking a bus or train with multiple transfers and stops, yeah still not buying it. Maybe a seizure disorder and an 11 month old.

 

An 11 year old should be able to manage a trip across country. If she has phone, GPS and cash for food for a few days especially with an adult/mom it shouldn't be an issue. I put my 9 year old on a bus and sent him half way accross the country without me. He managed a cell phone and cash to buy meals. By 11 I am sure he would be able to manage a grea deal more and could probably travel even further without me.

[Scarlett]

Just to restate, even if they were divorced I believe he could not keep her from traveling out of state on vacation. Yes, I am sure if the papers are drawn up that both parties to the divorce agree that the other party has to grant permission then those parties should abide by that. I don't think that as a matter of course, in standard visitation language 'permission' would have to be granted. And further, even if both parties agree to this stipulation of ' permission' and one parent refuses to grant permission for a vacation out of state and it ended back in front of a judge, such judge would not be happy that the courts time is being wasted with such nonsense. There is all sorts of stuff written into standard divorce decrees and into agreed upon decrees that at the end of the day can't be enforced in any practical way.

 

However it appears that none of the above is relevant to this situation. This OP who does not live in the states is asking is it true that a husband can keep,his wife from taking their child out of state for vacation. The answer is no. To me, THAT is the issue...that he would try control her by telling her that lie. Whether or not he has a reasonable reason for not wanting his dd to go is another matter and I agree we do not have enough info to really know.

[Scarlett]

And as to what I would actually say to her, my first choice would be nothing or a simple, "I hope you guys can work it out." My second choice (if I just couldn't help myself) would be, "Why does he say he doesn't want her to go?"

 

ETA: I will add that even if it isn't illegal, it is a bad idea. Bad for the marriage, bad for parent/child relationships for one to go against another's wishes... If she is abused, she should seek help for that. If not, she should acknowledge and respect her husband's equal rights to make decisions for the child. She should look for compromise or make other plans.

 

I don't think he is necessarily controlling or abusive because he doesn't want the dd to go. Maybe he has a good reason, maybe he will just miss his child, I don't know. And if a woman came here saying she didn't want her dh to take their child out of state on vacation I would ask why? And remind her that he is their father. My big issue is him telling her it is illegal to go without his permission. That seems controlling.

[Scarlett]

 

Custody agreements can specify anything the parties feel is necessary. While there isn't a "law" about it in the state, the state upholds what the paperwork says.

 

We have to give advanced notice for any overnight travel, with an itinerary and way to contact the kids. I would have preferred permission for out of state visits, but we forgot to bring it up at trial.

 

A friends does have it written that the other parent needs to consent to out of state travuel.

 

Different situations will have different needs.....

 

 

Very little in a divorce agreement or custody plan can be enforced. It is a joke really.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My big issue is him telling her it is illegal to go without his permission. That seems controlling.

 

Given that the OP said the couple is not originally from here, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt in thinking he believes it to be true before I see it as controlling.

 

Or again with the maybes... :tongue_smilie: Maybe he is fearful she is going to take the DD away for a long time or permanently and is just saying it with the desperate hope that it will stop her, because he is scared. Poor guy. My heart just breaks for him...MAYBE! LOL

[Pen]

Answering only the question posed: it is not illegal in the US for one spouse to take the children to another spouse without the other spouse's permission. Divorce decrees can specify this, but when the parents are married, joint legal and physical custody is presumed.

 

 

To another state you mean right?

 

Yes. That was the question.

 

And if that is the answer, that is what I had said to the wife/mother I believed was the case, but then worried that perhaps I was wrong. I did also say I thought if they could get to an agreement about it that that would be best.

[Kathryn]

 

 

 

To another state you mean right?

 

Yes. That was the question.

 

And if that is the answer, that is what I had said to the wife/mother I believed was the case, but then worried that perhaps I was wrong. I did also say I thought if they could get to an agreement about it that that would be best.

 

Yes, sorry! DS was talking to me while I typed.

[Pen]

deleted for privacy

[mathnerd]

My thought is that this is a protective husband and father who feels that his wife on crutches and his 11 year old taking off by themselves for a vacation might bring problems for those two and that he would not be around to help if needed. Everyone knows that it is not illegal to take your child on vacations inside the US when the parents are still married ...

[Pen]

Given that the OP said the couple is not originally from here, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt in thinking he believes it to be true before I see it as controlling.

 

...

 

 

That is my inclination. But at the same time, even if he believes it to be true, he might still take more of an attitude of helping it to be worked out, rather than just refusing, so he may both believe it to be true and also be controlling.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Right. He may be controlling. Or he might be an awesome guy with perfectly good reasons that she just didn't express. Who knows?

[Farrar]

This reminded me a bit of the story that Hunter shared about her marriage and how controlling her spouse was. Hunter, if you read this thread, I hope it's okay that I referenced your experience. And the language raised a lot of red flags for me.

 

But I agree with others that it could just be a perfectly normal marital dispute and the OP should just stay out of it. On the other hand, if this were a case of abusive control, then the OP could be the friend who really speaks up and helps her or does something. When we hear about cases of abuse, sometimes the saddest part is that everyone around it kept seeing red flags and just kept saying things like, "it's just a domestic dispute," or "I didn't think I should get involved." And in retrospect it seems obvious that someone really should have spoken up. But in the end, only the OP can weigh things and decide.

[TraceyS/FL]

Very little in a divorce agreement or custody plan can be enforced. It is a joke really.

 

Perhaps in your state, but I have not had the feeling here that it is taken lightly. Now, if the child refuses to follow the agreement - i've been told they will honor their wishes provided they are able to understand what is being asked (My ex was attempting to force my oldest to go to visitation against her will. Oh, and he isn't allowed out of the country - with or without kids because of his arrears child support - they cannot issue him a passport.)

 

But there is no way I would attempt to paint a broad stroke of what is done regarding custody agreements outside of my own area/jurisdiction.

 

Oh and the in general stuff in it? Yup it is enforceable, the police will stand in your front yard with a copy of it in hand and call the states attorneys office for clarification and a decision. Been there, done that.

 

None of which helps the OP's friend out.

[kiwik]

Perhaps he fears once free of his control she won't come back. perhaps her relatives are nuts or hate him. Perhaps she is hurt and over reacting. Answer the question about the law and see if you can find a local website with information about legal issues including but not limited to marital disputes, abuse, divorce and custody. There needs to be sufficient info on parking fines, tax laws etc to make it not too pointed.

 

 

[Scarlett]

 

 

But there is no way I would attempt to paint a broad stroke of what is done regarding custody agreements outside of my own area/jurisdiction.

 

Well, I guess it is true we shouldn't paint a broad stroke because I have had the EXACT opposite experience as yours below....

 

 

 

Oh and the in general stuff in it? Yup it is enforceable, the police will stand in your front yard with a copy of it in hand and call the states attorneys office for clarification and a decision. Been there, done that.

 

Calls to sheriff's office to attempt to get court order enforced---a big fat 'can't help you.' Even going in front of the judge got my dh NOTHING except, 'you didn't fill out the paperwork right, go get an attorney'. Why in the world a person needs an attorney to get a court order enforced is beyond me. But I agree none of our experiences help the OP.

[Pen]

edited for privacy

[Arcadia]

The husband has computer and email, the wife does not have access to that. .......Yes, he may fear she will leave and not come back after going somewhere she would have relatives nearby. Maybe they need some counseling.

 

 

Can your friend have computer or email access? As in did she ask and he refuse or she had never thought to ask.

You said in your first post that your friend is allowed to go to visit her relatives by herself. Just not her and her daughter without him. I don't think it would be fair (not knowing what happen) to assume he is holding his daughter "hostage" because he is scared his wife won't come back from visiting relatives.

Not enough info to jump to a conclusion that your friend's husband is controlling. However there might be communications issues between them.