Steubenville? And being the mother of a boy

[Spy Car]

Probably a bad time to mention that I was captain of the football team in high school?

 

Bill

[Hockey Mom]

There are plenty of rapists who are not football players. That's all I'm going to say about that.

Right, but what other profession in the world looks the other way when a girl is raped or beaten? The NFL doesn't seem to care what kind of crime you commit. Can he catch a ball? Great, you're hired. Can he throw a ball? Great, you're hired. Can you mow down another grown man? Great, you're hired.

 

That kind of conditioning (in SOME athletic-centric towns) begins at a young age. It's very likely that these boys knew in their heart what they were doing was wrong, but they were conditioned to think that their actions don't have very harsh consequences. And hey, as long as the team went to the State Championship, the worst that would happen is they would get a stern talking-to.

 

Finally, to quote one of the best high school football movies ever made, "attitude reflects leadership". Had the adults in this situation behaved as an adult should, it's likely that all of this could have turned out differently.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I think we should all show our boys the movie Teeth.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

IMO it's entirely possible to believe you did nothing wrong, and to not feel remorse - and yet be concerned that you could get into trouble and do some CYA. Lance Armstrong is a perfect recent example of that. My impression, based on his interviews, is that he's sorry he got caught. That's it. And based on what I've read about the boys in the Steubenville case, I get the same impression.

 

I never said they weren't sorry for anything more than being caught.

 

these boys started looking for cover the very next day. within 24 hours someone told them the girls father found out what happened - and those boys knew he wouldn't look the other way because they *knew* what they did was out of line. they were bragging to their friends - they didn't expect it to get out there in the public realm. as soon as word came that it was 'getting out there', they were afraid.

[Liz CA]

I really don't think this kind of thing is uncommon. :( I wish adults could open their eyes and really see what goes on among teens, instead of being so shocked when things like this come up. I know we don't like to talk about it, we all want to have more faith in teens, but I really don't think this is uncommon. :( The person I was at 16, the way my brain worked, the destructive behaviors I engaged in (and OMG the boys I knew??)....totally different from who I am as a grown adult in my 30s. Thank God.

 

Of course there is no excuse for rape, and in an ideal world, nothing like this would ever happen. Ideally all teens would stand up for those being mistreated, and they would never mistreat each other. But come on.

 

It's very sad and upsetting. I don't know what the solution is. I hope that by homeschooling we are keeping our children away from that destructive peer culture that causes so many of these issues. I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

Like many here have already pointed out, teaching character would be a start IMHO. What does integrity mean? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

These things are called outdated but they taught many generations before us right from wrong. This does not mean these atrocities have never happened before but not to the extent we see today. Every time you open a news article...turn on the national news...another horror story.

[aggieamy]

Like many here have already pointed out, teaching character would be a start IMHO. What does integrity mean? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

These things are called outdated but they taught many generations before us right from wrong. This does not mean these atrocities have never happened before but not to the extent we see today. Every time you open a news article...turn on the national news...another horror story.

 

I don't think we can say that these things are worse today than they were 50 or 100 years ago. Bad news sells and that's why we see so many frightening things on the news. Do you think there would have been outrage if this had happened 50 years ago? No ... I think we would have heard that boys will be boys and she was asking for it. We can't glorify the past.

[delaney]

Probably a bad time to mention that I was captain of the football team in high school?

 

Bill

Well that explains it all Bill! Your love of kale and everything.

[delaney]

 

 

 

Well, it's a good thing you mentioned the "blah, blah, blah" part or we wouldn't have known what you meant.

 

 

 

 

I'm bowing out now. My posts and personal gripes about stereotyping are departing from the OP's far more important topic.

To quote my teen. "Oh, ok. You know'"

Whatever. If football had no bearing why is the media all over it? Let's ask the Saints how their coach handles integrity.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

As a parent with a son and daughters, I have thought about this case too. I try very hard to teach my son to respect everyone's no in every situation. He will get in trouble if he's playing with his sisters and won't stop doing something when they say no. Sometimes they are laughing and I can see why he thinks they are not serious. I tell him it doesn't matter and he must stop immediately if they say no. If they did want to continue whatever game they were playing, they'll let him know after he stops. I tell my girls to listen to his no too, and I also tell them not to say no unless they mean it. They shouldn't weaken the word or build confusion in any of their friends.

 

With alcohol, we haven't talked much about it. We are watching Guys and Dolls this week, however, and it has opened up a good opportunity. Marlon Brando tricks his love interest into drinking a lot of alcohol and she starts to behave very out of character. We talked about how wrong it was for him to trick her. We talked about how she should have been more careful about taking unknown drinks from people she doesn't know well. We talked about how she was lucky he decided to be a gentleman. I had forgotten about the drunk scene and hadn't intended to show them movies with drunks but it turned out to be a good thing.

 

I try to teach them to not be bystanders to bullying and abuse. I hope it sticks. My DS is more assertive and I don't think he would stay silent but my girls are more timid. They have a hard time speaking up when the neighbor girl who is 2yrs younger is being stupid and telling them to do stupid things they know are wrong. I try to get them to speak up but they need to find their voices.

 

In Steubenville, so many things went wrong. The parents absolutely have fault- how was there so little supervision at these parties? Were they out of town? The boys, of course, have fault. There are no excuses. I think they thought they weren't so bad since they didn't use their genitals. Someone in their lives should have given them a better education but I have no doubt they knew they were not acting appropriately. The bystanders have almost equal fault. One boy said he tried to tell them to stop and then left because he couldn't take it. Why didn't he call the cops? The girls who are tormenting her are disgusting. The cops and school officials did not act responsibly. Finally, the girl herself isn't at fault for what happened, but she absolutely is responsible for herself. She was so drunk she could have killed herself. She knew she was underage. She was lucky she woke up at all. For that matter, the boys are lucky she woke up. Instead of carting her around, they should have been worried about alcohol poisoning. She "acted dead?" What?? How did they know she wasn't going to be really dead?

 

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. I don't have daughters, but when my sons are playing and starting to get too rough and one says "no" or "stop", I make them stop. I've explained many times that no means no, no matter what the situation. Even if the person is laughingly asking you to stop- you must stop. It drives me crazy when people think it's funny to ignore someone's request to stop. This is why I don't let my kids play violent video games or get too violent in their imaginary games, because I don't want them to think that even pretend violence against another human being or animal is okay.

[fairfarmhand]

I don't know if anyone has shared Ann Voskamp's blog about this, but I really appreciated reading it:

 

http://www.aholyexpe...-about-manhood/

This is fabulous. I love this quote "A woman’s immodesty is never an excuse for a man’s irresponsibility."

[I.Dup.]

Like many here have already pointed out, teaching character would be a start IMHO. What does integrity mean? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

These things are called outdated but they taught many generations before us right from wrong. This does not mean these atrocities have never happened before but not to the extent we see today. Every time you open a news article...turn on the national news...another horror story.

 

I'm a believer in the "Hold On To Your Kids" way of parenting. That book does a great job of explaining just how vastly different our culture is, really since after WWII, from the cultures before. Sure, kids had friends at school and in the neighborhood, but there was a completely different level of respect for family and adults. I think if we asked any of our grandparents, they would tend to agree with that. Now, with the peer culture where kids are spending hardly any time with adults and their own families, MOST of their time with peers, add in social media and adults having their hands tied behind their back because of this fear of damaging the kids' precious self esteem, it all adds up to be a recipe for disaster. Children and teens were not meant to spend the majority of their waking hours around only those in their own age group. That is very destructive and leads to these kinds of issues IMO. As much as we teach our kids integrity and these other issues, if they spend the majority of their time around other teens with little adult supervision, I don't know how one would avoid these issues.

[Scarlett]

I really don't think this kind of thing is uncommon. :( I wish adults could open their eyes and really see what goes on among teens, instead of being so shocked when things like this come up. I know we don't like to talk about it, we all want to have more faith in teens, but I really don't think this is uncommon. :( The person I was at 16, the way my brain worked, the destructive behaviors I engaged in (and OMG the boys I knew??)....totally different from who I am as a grown adult in my 30s. Thank God.

 

Of course there is no excuse for rape, and in an ideal world, nothing like this would ever happen. Ideally all teens would stand up for those being mistreated, and they would never mistreat each other. But come on.

 

It's very sad and upsetting. I don't know what the solution is. I hope that by homeschooling we are keeping our children away from that destructive peer culture that causes so many of these issues. I'm not sure what the answer is.

 

 

I am remembering my high school days...I think I am fortunate that I wasn't raped. :( I remember one time my friend and I had taken our younger siblings skating...we dropped them off and had to run to the store for my friend's mom. Two very popular boys stopped us and fairly easily convinced us to get in their truck....they promised they just wanted to drive down main street one time with us...we got in that truck with them knowing that our parents would exact swift and serious punishment on us if we were caught. No surprise they didn't go to main street...they drove us way out in to the country and it was only then we really realized they had been drinking. We kept saying the entire way, 'take us back, take us back, take us back.' The driver parked and was all over me and honestly I LIKED him a lot, but all I could think of 'we are dead, we are dead we are dead.' (from our parents, not from dying in a wreck with a drunk driver or getting raped). So I kept saying to him, take us back! He got mad finally and started up the truck and I said something else on the way back that he didn't like and he stopped the truck and dumped me out! He drove off down the road with ,y friend and the other guy. I was in the middle of no where in the pitch black dark. I remember hearing dogs barking and looking for a house as I walked down the middle of the highway. I wasn't frightened because I was stupid like that, but I was terrified my mom would catch me.

 

My friend was terrified...but her thinking was, she had the keys to our vehicle and she would come back to get me....she said they drove in silence for a minute and the other guy said, 'hey. Dude.' Driver screamed 'What?!' Other guy says, 'you know you gotta go back and get her right?' He said, 'Yes I know!' And he did.....

 

We got back to the skating rink and guess what? My mom was there checking up on us. We lied about where we had been...and even still were punished because we disobeyed.

 

A few days later the boy came to my house and apologized for dumping me out of the truck.

 

So many things could have gone so wrong for my friend and me...two good girls from good families with very strick parents...and my mom talked to me constantly about those type of situations....and I STILL got in that truck with them.

 

I often think how we could have been raped...and I often think about how drunk they were....we were so naive we didn't really know they had even been drinking much less how drunk they were....so a wreck was a very real possibility....but until today I never considered the fact that they basically kidnapped us.

 

I was about 16 when that happened. My ds just turned 13. Shudder.

[I.Dup.]

Oh yes. I fully put myself in similar situations as well. That is not uncommon, from what I have heard and seen (and remember from my own friends, etc).

[Scarlett]

Yesterday my ds13 and I were together in the car much of the day. He was very chatty and it was a good day. He wanted to talk about a friend of his...from our old city...our former neighbor. He said he wanted to use a word to describe him but it was a bad word...and could he say it. You know I'm thinking A$$ or turdhead or something...oh it was MUCH worse. I have no idea where he would have heard this word...certainly dh or I don't use it and ds is not really around a lot of kids...Anyway, this is one of those words that references females in an abstract sort of way and I explained to him (very calmly I might add and I would like extra mom points for that) EXACTLY what the term meant, and EXACTLY how demeaning it was to women to describe low lifes with such a term.

 

But that is what we are up against ladies....a culture of this junk.

[Scarlett]

Oh yes. I fully put myself in similar situations as well. That is not uncommon, from what I have heard and seen (and remember from my own friends, etc).

 

 

To further the thought that decent boys don't just 'happen' to rape someone....this boy that did that to me back then....I put myself alone with him many more times....without my mom's knowledge. He was a 'bad boy'...not an athlete. Even then I knew what he wanted from me....I did not give in...and yet he never tried to force himself on me. Even at times he could have easily and no one would have believed it was rape. His morals aren't that great even now. I wouldn't want to be married to him....certainly I would not have stayed married to him, and yet he isn't a rapist.

[Scarlett]

From a standpoint of believing sex outside of marriage is wrong....I talked to ds13 about Steubenville. We went through all the steps of 'wrong' that happened before the assault/rape did.

 

And then we got to the sex part...and I explained it was actually rape not sex....and I pointed out that whether it was sex or rape would not even have been a question if the boy had determined, 'hey I'm not married to this girl, I can't have sex with her.'

[AndyJoy]

As a parent with a son and daughters, I have thought about this case too. I try very hard to teach my son to respect everyone's no in every situation. He will get in trouble if he's playing with his sisters and won't stop doing something when they say no. Sometimes they are laughing and I can see why he thinks they are not serious. I tell him it doesn't matter and he must stop immediately if they say no. If they did want to continue whatever game they were playing, they'll let him know after he stops. I tell my girls to listen to his no too, and I also tell them not to say no unless they mean it. They shouldn't weaken the word or build confusion in any of their friends.

 

:iagree: We are also very careful to respect our son's "no" regarding his person and tell him it is OK to resist touching he doesn't want so he doesn't end up a victim himself. A lot of people think it is hilarious to tickle a toddler into helplessness for fun, but we taught DS to say "No" when he's done. In fact, the phrase he came up with himself is "No gank (thank) you, tickles!" when he is done. One of DH's good friends was tickling DS last week but stopped immediately when DS said that.

[I.Dup.]

I think as strong and overpowering as hormones can be before they have brains developed enough with logic and reason, talking honestly and instilling a good sense of fear is wise. Sharing stories like this, talking about how these boys' lives will be from now on, how much trouble they will find getting a job, having to explain to their future spouses someday, they will always carry that stigma around with them (if I understand correctly they will be permanently labeled as sex offenders?) and how in our culture, that is one of the worst stigmas someone can have....I would probably trust a former murderer more than I would trust a former sex offender. I plan to be very honest with my boys about these things and how quickly their lives can change if they give in to hormonal rushes. This isn't even counting pregnancy, STDs, etc.

 

And obviously, teaching the dignity of women. P*rn is most destructive in that respect.

[nmoira]

I think as strong and overpowering as hormones can be before they have brains developed enough with logic and reason, talking honestly and instilling a good sense of fear is wise.

 

 

I agree. I don't care *why* someone doesn't rape -- principle, fear, respect, revulsion, whatever. I think this is one of the things that disturbed me so much in the article I linked a few pages back. Even if most juvenile rapists can be rehabilitated and are far less likely to re-offend than an adult, there are still victims who have to deal with the perhaps lifelong consequences of their actions. Sure "no" means "no." But it also means if you violate the "no" *you* are a rapist, a criminal, a jerk, a stereotype, and whatever else might make an impact.

[ravinlunachick]

I saw this on Facebook today and thought of this thread.

 

http://www.upworthy.com/the-shortest-psa-on-how-to-handle-drunk-girls-passed-out-on-your-couch-ever?g=2&c=ufb1

[swimmermom3]

I feel strongly that-- they may have had parents that TRIED to instill good values and the "value of women" and still turned out the way they did.

 

I am not blaming the victim at all. But it's stupid to get that drunk, period. And her parents may have told her over and over to be careful and to be wise.

 

As much as we'd want to, we can't control the choices of our kids. Firsthand experience of raising kids with excellent moral values and having them derail.

 

Now, the actions of the adults? Unbelievably awful.

 

I hope everyone wakes up in that town; that prison brings healing to those boys, and that that young lady finds peace thru really good counseling.

 

 

Everyone talks about how drunk the girl was. Were the guys not drunk as well? The kid on the video was wasted. It was stupid for all of them to get that drunk. There are a lot of young men who have partied to the same point as these guys did who would never commit the same actions.

 

There is an unspoken judgement and agreement when the focus is on how drunk the girl was and that she should have known better. But let's play this out another way. Lots, and I mean lots of young men get equally drunk and pass out. Usually, their fellow males roll them off somewhere out of harm's way. So if a young guy gets as drunk as this girl did, then it is okay for a couple of drunk buddies to come along with a broomstick handle and "play" with the guy. He deserves it, right? He got too drunk and should have known better.

 

Chris, I am not directing this at you; I just get very frustrated at the inequality in judgements that are passed down. How can so many people as parents honestly say, "She's 16; she should have known better?" I don't know about the rest of you, but there are days when any one of my teens could not tie their own shoestring, let alone, "know better."

[nmoira]

Everyone talks about how drunk the girl was.

 

Sorry to pick just this out of your excellent post, but her lack of memory and reports of her state that night are consistent with her having been administered rohypnol. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Shawna in Texas]

Yes. Exactly. You don't get many videos of drunk teen males violating each other unless you count the 'let's draw a mustache on this dipsh!t who couldn't handle his liquor. With a sharpie' . You see lots of that going around the Internet.

 

 

 

Everyone talks about how drunk the girl was. Were the guys not drunk as well? The kid on the video was wasted. It was stupid for all of them to get that drunk. There are a lot of young men who have partied to the same point as these guys did who would never commit the same actions.

 

There is an unspoken judgement and agreement when the focus is on how drunk the girl was and that she should have known better. But let's play this out another way. Lots, and I mean lots of young men get equally drunk and pass out. Usually, their fellow males roll them off somewhere out of harm's way. So if a young guy gets as drunk as this girl did, then it is okay for a couple of drunk buddies to come along with a broomstick handle and "play" with the guy. He deserves it, right? He got too drunk and should have known better.

 

Chris, I am not directing this at you; I just get very frustrated at the inequality in judgements that are passed down. How can so many people as parents honestly say, "She's 16; she should have known better?" I don't know about the rest of you, but there are days when any one of my teens could not tie their own shoestring, let alone, "know better."

 

[swimmermom3]

To quote my teen. "Oh, ok. You know'"

Whatever. If football had no bearing why is the media all over it? Let's ask the Saints how their coach handles integrity.

 

 

The media is all over it because it is a contentious story. One of the ways football may have a bearing is how the general public perceives the descriptions of those involved. To tell you the story, I need to tell you that the young lady was too drunk to respond. You need to know this as to why she does not have any testimony. We hear "16" and "drunk" and most of us make assumptions about her character. If I tell you a couple of boys raped her, you will feel one way, but if I tell you that a couple of star high-school football players raped her, there is a different response. America has a very idealized notion of football players. If we prosecute high school football players, we are ruining promising futures; if we prosecute 16-yo computer geeks, we may not feel the same. KWIM?

[swimmermom3]

Sorry to pick just this out of your excellent post, but her lack of memory and reports of her state that night are consistent with her having been administered rohypnol. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

 

I wondered about that too.

 

Even as the mother of sons, I am really struggling to find any sympathy for these "boys". I have to tell you that no one can convince me that guys who did what they did, dumped her naked, unresponsive body on the ground and then urinated on her, are really just good guys that made a wrong decision. Then they sent the videos to a bunch of friends. They weren't embarrassed or sorry and I truly believe that they thought nothing would happen to them because the girl was too messed up to talk. A kid saying that she was deader than Caylee Anthony? A football coach who tells the kids to dump the evidence? There is so much more wrong with this picture than one girl drinking too much. If it wasn't that party and that girl, it would have been another one.

 

The boys' parents were angry with the girl. That pretty much says it all right there.

[LucyStoner]

I am the mother of boys and I have ZERO sympathy for these boys. You do not have sex without having consent. People who are drunk can not consent. Sex without consent is not sex. It's rape. You do not degrade the people you have sex with picture texts and urination. You do not take turns with your friends. That's not sex. It's rape and violence. If my sons did anything like this, I would be horrified and deeply ashamed of him and myself. I thing anger directed at the girl is just a way to avoid having to look inwards and deal with those feelings and examine your parenting. While I don't think the parents are to blame for their sons' crimes, kids do learn, spoken and unspoken, attitudes about sex from their parents and their parents blaming the girl is a darn good sign they are complicit after the fact. Talking to my kids about sexual consent is part of my job as a parent, period. My husband and I both feel very strongly about this. One more than one occasion my husband and I helped passed out drunk girls in college, one time when a group of young men were circling suspiciously. That is the sort of man I expect my sons to be, not the one who would either see it as an opportunity or be pressured into going along with or ignoring his friends.

 

The girl is responsible for her choices, good and bad. But rape is not a consequence of drinking, it is a deviant and unacceptable choice made by others to abuse someone who can't say no or walk away or defend herself. No choices she made make her responsible for her rape. No matter how much she drank, that is not a blank check for anyone else to sexually violate her. The blame for a rape belongs to the rapists. Period.

[Jennifer3141]

I have a son and a daughter and DH and I had a long talk about this a few days ago.

 

We are not a family of jocks and thank goodness neither of our kids seems to be either. If I had to go to soccer or football games, I'd quite possibly just off myself. I think it's possible team sports can build "character" but only if the individuals involved have good characters. Obviously, this town's teams have ZERO character.

 

What DH and I decided was that we would feel like complete and utter failures if our son did this. And we flat out would not pay a dime for any education when the kid got out of prison. They may be paying their debt to society in prison, but their debt to ME would just be starting.

 

If my son ever rapes anyone, that is just a total and utter failure of compassion, morality and judgment. It would mean to us that we as parents screwed up so totally that all the good we accomplished by our parenting would be undone by that act.

 

We would feel the same if we caught either of our kids texting or video taping it or whatever. No one stood up for this girl while she was being attacked. That is completely unacceptable. If I had a kid at this party, we would be sitting down for MONTHS and going over that kid's actions ad naseum. It's sick that no one got a blanket or called 911 or her parents or a million other things these jerk kids could have done to stave off the darkness of the attack. Those jerks missed a million little acts that could have made this story just one ounce better for all of us.

[LucyStoner]

I went to a school without this sort of culture and to this day, the school is about the same. The boys I went to high school with by and large would have been as disgusted as I am with this stuff. I don't think that all or even most teenagers are would be rapists or rape-victim-blaming-bullies given the chance. There are young men who would do the right thing in this situation. The thing is that oftentimes kids who would do the right thing are often not interested in the sorts of parties where this happened. I think plenty of great teens get a bad rap for the cr@p that goes down in parties and groups they don't want to have anything to do with.

[LucyStoner]

I don't attribute this to football or sports. Some towns and football programs and players are complicit in rape culture but that doesn't mean it is caused by football or that all football programs are complicit or equally complicit. Rapists come in many shapes, sizes and hobbies.

[Halftime Hope]

I don't believe this was just a matter of "good kids that made a stupid mistake". It goes well beyond that.

 

A book I'm reading right now touches on something that is very relevant to what happened in Steubenville. It talks about the evolution of character education in our society, and specifically within our schools. The author's premise is that we've traditionally used literature, history, and other means to teach kids the importance of character traits like honesty, respect, and how to stand up for what's right. He goes as far back as Plato and Aristotle to illustrate this point. But over the last 50 years or so, there has been a shift away from this type of explicit character education towards a "decision-making" model where we ask kids to decide what's right and wrong based on what "feels right" without helping them develop a proper foundation first. Note that he doesn't state that it's wrong to let people decide their own position on moral issues. His point (and I agree with him) is that we first need to help our kids develop a basic set of values before we present them with those decisions. The Steubenville incident illustrates perfectly what can happen when individuals lack a core understanding of right and wrong, and rely instead on what feels right in the moment.

 

As the mother of a boy, it's important to me to raise my son to be a man of character who treats women (and everyone for that matter) with respect. In the past, I've focused on character education more in the context of day to day life, addressing things as they come up or discussing a book or situation together. Based on recent insights and discussions like this, I'm going to be much more intentional about it.

 

Julie, what book are you refernceing here? I'd be interested in the title.

[Dandelion]

 

Julie, what book are you refernceing here? I'd be interested in the title.

 

Why Johnny Can't Tell Right from Wrong: Moral Illiteracy and the Case for Character Education by William Kilpatrick. It was published in 1992 (at least the version I checked out from the library - I think a second edition may exist). The title caught my eye while I was looking for another book in that section at the library.

 

While some of the references feel a bit dated, the overall message is still very relevant, because the issues the author addresses are still there (and in some ways worse) 20 years later. I'm only 1/4 of the way through the book, so I can't vouch for it in its entirety. But what I've read so far is making a lot of sense to me.

[DawnM]

I watched a portion of the 20/20 special on this. One quesiton that came up but was never answered was, "There was a LOT of alcohol involved. WHERE were the parents/homeowners?"

 

How do teens have access to that much alcohol that a large group could drink, get drunk, and even pass out?

 

I am not placing all blame in the parents' direction, but there is a LOT of blame to go around to the parents, the kids, the boys, and the coach. His interview was quite disturbing to me.

[Renthead Mommy]

Well I can tell back from when I was in high school, (class of 88) either you bought it at the liquror stores you know didn't card, you had a fake id, you had an legal boyfriend or older sibling. The other option was to steal it out of your parents supply. Either they had so much they didn't notice, or you replaced part of the volume with water.

 

I will say in the case for my high school, I don't remember there being any alcohol even involved. They did what they did to that girl stone cold sober I believer.

 

 

ETA: Post 31 explains about the rape case from my high school.

[Jennifer3141]

I watched a portion of the 20/20 special on this. One quesiton that came up but was never answered was, "There was a LOT of alcohol involved. WHERE were the parents/homeowners?"

 

How do teens have access to that much alcohol that a large group could drink, get drunk, and even pass out?

 

I am not placing all blame in the parents' direction, but there is a LOT of blame to go around to the parents, the kids, the boys, and the coach. His interview was quite disturbing to me.

 

 

I can't figure the parent/homeowner thing out either.

 

When DH and I sat down with out insurance guy, this issue came up. He was very clear that people have been sued and lost quite a bit when an intoxicated teen caused an accident or insurance that involved liability. This girl was "only" raped. She could have been run over by a drunk teen. A drunk teen could have crashed into the house. A bazillion things could have happened. Do people just not think about this stuff???

[Jennifer3141]

I've wondered about this. If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not well-versed on legal matters, so I could be wrong on this), I think this trial was a criminal trial, was it not? I was wondering if there was going to be a slew of civil trials come out of this situation. If I were the mother of the girl, boy howdy, I would sue the providers of the alcohol, the owner of the home in which the party was held, the people who posted the videos on the internet, etc. I'd go after all of them. If for no other reason than that it would help pay for all the years of counseling that poor young girl is going to need.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

We have had one babysitter throughout the kids' lives. She has finished growing up with us basically.

 

We took the kids to Mackinaw Island one year and left this 20 year old woman in our home petsitting. We came home to find the house utterly trashed and enough evidence of liquor usage for about 40 people. Babysitter pulled into our driveway shortly after us and I was worried DH was going to spank her. She had never thought about the consequences to US if she had gotten in a car and killed someone. She made that mistake ONCE thankfully.

 

But she sure was suprised to discover that 20 isn't too old for me to call your Mama on you. :laugh:

 

And when we found out that only 6 people were there, DH told her to either quit drinking so much or find another job because that was just an inhuman amount of booze. He told her how much our kids loved her and that he would not stand by and watch her become an alcoholic. And he told her he could see some of the first signs of the disease in her physically.

 

I don't think that was the only thing to stop her but she told me a couple years later that she did stop and reconsider how she was spending EVERY weekend.

 

And as much as I like her parents, I can't help but wonder what the heck they were thinking... She was TWENTY and drinking like a 65 year old, 400 pound guy every flipping weekend while living with her parents. What the heck?? When your 20 year old starts to turn yellow, don't you start asking questions?!?!

[SKL]

I'm not really sure what a parent's role is when someone age 19-20 is drinking. I always tell my kids that I will stop bossing them around when they are 18, and after that I will simply tell them what I think.

 

I have a brother who had a problem with alcohol (overindulging, not underage drinking) at one point, and I assure you he didn't get that because of how his parents raised him. He may have inherited the physical tendency, but I don't know what a parent can do about that.

[Jenny in Florida]

I have a brother who had a problem with alcohol (overindulging, not underage drinking) at one point, and I assure you he didn't get that because of how his parents raised him. He may have inherited the physical tendency, but I don't know what a parent can do about that.

 

It's not a certain fix, of course, but I think one thing a parent can do is talk to kids honestly about family history and the dangers that might cause for them.

 

For example, my kids have a couple of family members who have done a wonderful job demonstrating exactly what kind of pain and suffering alcoholism can cause, both to the alcoholic and to his/her loved ones. From as soon as my kids started asking questions about the subject, I've spoken to and with them very frankly about the kinds of problems those family members have experienced and caused. We've talked about research that suggests a genetic predisposition toward substance abuse, and I've strongly encouraged both of them to consider choosing not to drink at all.

 

I've also provided an example by not drinking, myself, and showing that it's entirely possible to have a good time both at home and in social situations without alcoholic lubrication. I've been very honest about how upsetting I found interactions with a few members of my own family of origin who drank more than was good for them and about how those experiences affected my choice to abstain. I've been equally honest about the fact that I've never really felt like I'm missing anything.

 

Both of mine are too young yet to know if any of this "takes" in the long run, although my daughter has already come through most of her teen years without any issues. Both have been in social situations in which their peers are indulging, though, and neither has thus far been tempted to experiment. (My daughter did once unknowingly drink some spiked punch at a college function, and she called and talked to me about it the following morning. Since then, she has been more careful.) Neither likes the idea of being or feeling out of control, and both are a little bit disgusted by the behavior they've observed in social situations involving significant amounts of alcohol. And we're still talking about all of it regularly.

[MyThreeSons]

One of my sons called me just to talk about this case. He was absolutely outraged by the media coverage that concentrated on the "ruined lives" of the football players. Another son was beside me in the car when that call came in. We talked at length afterwards; he was equally outraged. Third son and I haven't talked, but I'm confident his response would be similar to his brothers'.

 

I had watched part of a Dr. Phil episode several weeks ago on this topic. It was the first I had heard of the case. He kept asking the same questions: where were the parents (of all the kids)? Why didn't anyone stop these guys? Why are so many people more concerned about the guys than the girl?

[SKL]

It's not a certain fix, of course, but I think one thing a parent can do is talk to kids honestly about family history and the dangers that might cause for them.

 

For example, my kids have a couple of family members who have done a wonderful job demonstrating exactly what kind of pain and suffering alcoholism can cause, both to the alcoholic and to his/her loved ones. From as soon as my kids started asking questions about the subject, I've spoken to and with them very frankly about the kinds of problems those family members have experienced and caused. We've talked about research that suggests a genetic predisposition toward substance abuse, and I've strongly encouraged both of them to consider choosing not to drink at all.

 

I've also provided an example by not drinking, myself, and showing that it's entirely possible to have a good time both at home and in social situations without alcoholic lubrication. I've been very honest about how upsetting I found interactions with a few members of my own family of origin who drank more than was good for them and about how those experiences affected my choice to abstain. I've been equally honest about the fact that I've never really felt like I'm missing anything.

 

Both of mine are too young yet to know if any of this "takes" in the long run, although my daughter has already come through most of her teen years without any issues. Both have been in social situations in which their peers are indulging, though, and neither has thus far been tempted to experiment. (My daughter did once unknowingly drink some spiked punch at a college function, and she called and talked to me about it the following morning. Since then, she has been more careful.) Neither likes the idea of being or feeling out of control, and both are a little bit disgusted by the behavior they've observed in social situations involving significant amounts of alcohol. And we're still talking about all of it regularly.

 

My parents did all of that. My dad was open about the fact that he was an alcoholic and he made it a point to not drink and to tell us why. There were 6 of us. The one who went overseas for the Air Force is the one who had problems. At that point parents didn't have much contact with him to know how things were going and target advice. Eventually he got treatment and got over the problem. Point being, you can do your best as parents, but at some point it's not the parents' fault nor their responsibility if an individual makes poor choices. We can only hope that our kids come around sooner rather than later if they do get influenced by others.

[SKL]

Did you let your child tear the wings off of butterflies, or put firecrackers on the dog's collar? How about hang around with those that did? We can do more than hope and we can do more than talk. We can take the time to guide the teen into becoming responsible for his own choices rather than following a bad decisionmaker,and to be aware of the dangers of declaring someone 'the other' and hurting or killing them. We can teach them the signs of abusers, and we can teach them how to know when to fold & walk away. We can show them the case histories of people who have made bad choices in the name of power: the boys in florida that set their 'friend' on fire, the matthew shephard case, etc etc. While they are teens, we can remove them from circumstances that don't promote their development into moral human beings that can make their own decisions in the face of group pressure.

 

Well yeah, I didn't really mean we can "only" hope. But once our kids are over 18, we don't see as much and we can't legally do as much. This sub-conversation was related to the question someone asked about why parents of 19-20yos aren't preventing their offspring from drinking.

 

I think the parents who are so convinced that parenting can prevent these situations are the ones who are in for a shock. Not to say parenting doesn't matter, but it isn't a guarantee.

 

Watching my two very different daughters, I could see one of them being pretty likely to try stuff unless I am extremely effective and lucky. Of course I will do what I can, but I will also do a lot of hoping and praying, because I've seen many kids of good parents go astray.

[FaithManor]

I agree. And sometimes the boys didn't even have to do anything but talk smack. If a ball player said he did a girl, no one questioned it. The girl could deny it all 4 years, no one would believe her.

 

Yup! That was my high school and it was the boys' basketball team that were the smack talkers.

 

Faith

[woolybear]

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but it brings up so many things......For one, yes I have two boys. They have very different personalities. One of them, try as I might, I cannot get him to even understand "no" from our cat. No joke. I know it sounds like I'm overreacting, but I have many times projected this into the future onto some yet to be date or girl. It is clear when the cats want to be left alone. It is clear when they mean "no" and yet, he does not listen to me. My other son is mostly gentle, empathetic, and sweet.. I don't know how to teach something to my other son which does not seem to be innate to his character. I will continue to try, but I'm just bringing this up.....???? I'm not sure why.... because I guess I have the fear that it could be my son someday and I am trying to teach him.

 

Another thought I have on all this. This incident sounds like a typical Saturday night in my hometown, back in the day. Every Saturday night. Every party. So many girls. The main difference I see is lack of cameras, tweeting, cell phones, etc. If this hadn't been documented, bragged about publicly, pictures posted, what would've happened? Most likely nothing. I guess I have no point here only that it has happened so, so often and not been called rape, just a bad night. Or maybe, "what happened last night?" So so sad.

 

I am also fearful that my boys may not be the perpetrators, but would not do enough to step in and help someone in this situation. I think I need to work on teaching that.

[woolybear]

 

 

I can't figure the parent/homeowner thing out either.

 

When DH and I sat down with out insurance guy, this issue came up. He was very clear that people have been sued and lost quite a bit when an intoxicated teen caused an accident or insurance that involved liability. This girl was "only" raped. She could have been run over by a drunk teen. A drunk teen could have crashed into the house. A bazillion things could have happened. Do people just not think about this stuff???

 

 

I went to a lot of parties in high school and I remember parents being at one (mine). Where were the parents? Out of town for the weekend. Out for the night. One friend had a single mom who had gotten seriously involved (maybe engaged?) with a man who lived over an hour away. She left her 17 year old daughter mostly alone in the house to be able to finish up high school in the town where she grew up. She drank A LOT. And she had epilepsy. It wasn't a great combination. I think her mom was pretty clueless about her drinking, though.

 

IN that time it was very easy for us to get liquor. The drinking age was 18. We all had fake ids. No problem. Some people drove over the state line to get liquor because in that state the liquor stores stayed open later. So, super drunk, a couple of kids would drive half an hour (20 minutes if they were *good*) each way so the party could go on.