At what age/grade should one start looking

[2squared]

Well, going to a particular school does really help for some field.

 

Google and IBM only run recruiting fairs at certain schools, for example.

 

I have a brother who bounced around various local Universities trying to get a computer science degree. Ended up working at a carpentry shop for a bit. Then he bit the bullet and went to a very expensive University in another state, one where Google and IBM have offices located nearby (just because). Before he graduated he interviewed for both, and then worked for both (long story). He now makes an ungodly amount of money.

 

Could you work for Google or IBM without going to a particular school? I suppose. But you'll have to jump through a bunch of hoops which are not there for all the other candidates.

 

This is likely true for all large companies. I've worked for 2 fortune 500 companies, and both specifically recruited their employees from specific schools - xxx for accounting, xyz for engineering, etc. Neither of them recruited from an Ivy and neither recruited from the same schools. Based on my experience, if you want to work for a specific company in a specific field, you need to work backwards by figuring out where that company recruits.

[Lolly]

My advice: teach your child to the top of their abilities and interests. Don't push forward too quickly so that they have X class in high school. Don't stop them from taking a class because you cannot handle teaching it: find someone who can. Then, in their junior year, start thinking about what colleges they are interested in attending where they will have a shot at being admitted. Find the college that fits the student. Don't try to make your student fit the school.

 

As far as early prep, like middle school... don't sweat it. Go with interest and ability. Talk about career options. Talk about interests. Let them see what is out there. Don't focus on what school they should attend.

[Nscribe]

I worry I might come off in previous posts as sounding anti-"elite", which is not what I intend. If a particular school has the program to further a students goals, go for it.

 

I do have concerns about what I see so many teens doing to try to gain entry into an elite school. When teens can't spend the summer with their grandparents because they would forego a must have exemplary experience to compete with their cohorts, no one is made better for it in the end. And yes, those kids may have more options even if they ultimately find they didn't make the cut for their elite choices. Schools have rankings reasons to scoop up the leftovers who logged the elite path life and missed.

 

Dd is active in the performing arts and it is an arena where the groundwork in middle school makes a difference. But, when I see a kid want to try something out of their "area" discouraged from doing so because they aren't on task to show that one area of intense interest so many of the schools say they want instead of the jack of many trades, I am less sold on the game. Unfortunately, I see it a great deal. Humans are more dimensional than that approach suggests. Someone may be an incredible piano player and be an amazing chef and or/chemist, but cut off from discovering one or the other in order to demonstrate that all important focus.

 

For us, despite the oft proffered advice, Dd's excursions into other areas have opened amazing doors I could never have foreseen which ironically looped back to more opportunities in the performing arts. Serendipity!

[TammyS]

I've been informally showing my son, 14yo, "cool" things at some colleges that I think might be good fits for him (one college has a Latin immersion camping trip every year, another has a campus-wide birthday party for Bilbo and Frodo, stuff like that). I figure most of the colleges that he is likely to apply to have similar entrance requirements, so I just aim at a generally rigorous education that would qualify for any of them.

[regentrude]

I do have concerns about what I see so many teens doing to try to gain entry into an elite school. When teens can't spend the summer with their grandparents because they would forego a must have exemplary experience to compete with their cohorts, no one is made better for it in the end. ...

But, when I see a kid want to try something out of their "area" discouraged from doing so because they aren't on task to show that one area of intense interest so many of the schools say they want instead of the jack of many trades, I am less sold on the game.

 

I completely agree with this.

I consider childhood and adolescence a time to explore and try out many different things. How else is a young person supposed to find their interest and area of strength? Some may have discovered their burning passion at age 7 and intentionally pursue this single-mindedly because they already know that they will not be happy unless they become a professional musician, a ballerina, a surgeon. But most young people have not discovered what they want to do with their lives, and they need the sheltered time of childhood to explore.

 

My main goal for my children is not to raise prospective-Ivy-university-admitted-students (even though it would, of course, be nice if DD got in.) But first and foremost, I am trying to raise well rounded human beings who are interested in a wide variety of things in this fascinating world.

[hsmamainva]

Don't overlook dual enrollment -- that's our plan for our youngest son, who's an 8th grader. His career goal right now is Journalism. We're then looking mainly at in-state schools - public and private. And, if he isn't accepted, he can stay at the community college and earn his AA degree. He then has guaranteed acceptance at any Virginia in-state public college or university.

 

My oldest daughter has followed this path...that has turned out to be wonderful in the end.

 

She pursued her AA degree at the community college after finishing her homeschool studies. After graduation, she moved 5 hours away to an in-state public college --- AND HATED IT! -- was homesick beyond belief and missing not only her family, but all of her friends from this area (she made lots of friends at the community college). So she transferred to a university 20 minutes from our house after her first semester and is now commuting from home.

 

She's currently pursuing her BS in Psychology and is planning on continuing her education with a Masters in Occupational Therapy. In that light, she contacted a pediatric occupational therapy clinic near our home, asking about the possibility of a summer "shadowing" opportunity (all graduate schools require at least 40 hours of shadowing -- working under the instruction of a licensed OT -- before you can be admitted into the program).

 

She went in over Thanksgiving break and interviewed with the clinic director -- who then ended up calling her this past week, asking if she was interested in a paid, part-time internship, and could she start immediately? I believe she could have floated toward the clinic instead of driving her car! She was that excited! So she's now working in her chosen field AND earning money WHILE attending college AND living at home. She couldn't be happier.

 

Oh and she has ZERO college debt. None. (Of course she fully expects to accumulate some when it comes time for her Masters program!)

 

Just our own personal experience -- hoping to encourage those readers who may feel the "Ivy-League-or-Bust" path isn't quite their cup of tea.

[SarahW]

 

This is likely true for all large companies. I've worked for 2 fortune 500 companies, and both specifically recruited their employees from specific schools - xxx for accounting, xyz for engineering, etc. Neither of them recruited from an Ivy and neither recruited from the same schools. Based on my experience, if you want to work for a specific company in a specific field, you need to work backwards by figuring out where that company recruits.

 

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

 

I'm sure that info is out there somewhere, but is a closely guarded secret to some. But admissions counselors should brag about it. So...you just have to ask them all.

 

And yeah, my brother didn't go to an Ivy, or even MIT. He went to UNC-CH.

 

That being said, it's not something you can plan that far in advance. If some Google manager in California suddenly decides that they don't like the Computer Science department at UNC-CH anymore, they'll pull out completely within a week and be setting up shop somewhere else.

[YaelAldrich]

 

 

And yeah, my brother didn't go to an Ivy, or even MIT. He went to UNC-CH.

 

 

But UNC-Ch is a "state Ivy". If he went to UNC-W(ilimington) or UNC-Asheville, it would be a different story...

[regentrude]

 

I'm sure that info is out there somewhere, but is a closely guarded secret to some. But admissions counselors should brag about it. So...you just have to ask them all.

 

 

Our university's career center lists the top employers for graduates of the school. I would assume most schools have similar information on their websites.

[Nscribe]

I've been informally showing my son, 14yo, "cool" things at some colleges that I think might be good fits for him (one college has a Latin immersion camping trip every year, another has a campus-wide birthday party for Bilbo and Frodo, stuff like that). I figure most of the colleges that he is likely to apply to have similar entrance requirements, so I just aim at a generally rigorous education that would qualify for any of them.

 

 

What I like about this is that it opens doors and demonstrates that college is not a four year sentence to be served in order to get your papers. I have to admit that if my Dd came to me with "Mom I want to go to X because they have LOTR campus wide birthday parties", my reaction would have a healthy dose of :001_rolleyes: and :bored:. But, if that feature were a bonus accompanying a solid preparation in something she can build upon, I would be more comfortable writing the checks.

[TammyS]

 

What I like about this is that it opens doors and demonstrates that college is not a four year sentence to be served in order to get your papers. I have to admit that if my Dd came to me with "Mom I want to go to X because they have LOTR campus wide birthday parties", my reaction would have a healthy dose of :001_rolleyes: and :bored:. But, if that feature were a bonus accompanying a solid preparation in something she can build upon, I would be more comfortable writing the checks.

 

To be fair, these are colleges that I have already pre-screened, so to speak, as being good schools, both academically and formatively (to us, college is also largely about the continuing formation of the person). So, campus life is an important feature once you screen for acadmics.

[Arcadia]

Its also a rat race in my area starting from preschool level. It will be unlikely that we would discuss which college to aim for until high school. What we aim for is to keep all doors open so they have the choice. For example, the subjects hubby took for high school enable him to apply to any faculty except school of music and arts. My high school subjects would allow me to apply anywhere except medicine, dentistry and pharmacy. I knew I wanted to be an engineer from young and I have no interest in being a doctor so I drop biology for senior high. My kids are interested in STEM careers so far and older has insist he wanted to be an astronaut since he was two. It would be interesting for hubby and me to see how that plays out down the road.

[swellmomma]

At where one wants to go to college?

 

 

My son decided last spring at conference which college he wanted, he was in 7th grade. At conference we sat down with 6 colleges/universities to find out admissions policies etc. We narrowed it down to 2 that accepted homeschoolers more willingly than the rest and still allowed them to get a 4 year degree AND were in the city my extended family live in so the kids would not have to pay for dorm costs etc. Of those 2 I was an alumni of 1 of them, so he decided that one would be best if he goes to university (and they gave him tons of stuff to make him want to pick them lol). In talking to dd about her future goals etc this year (she is in 7th) she also selected that college. She is more likely to attend than DS, he has plans to join the military. It's a good little Lutheran university(though it was only a college back when I attended), class sizes of about 20 students per class, professors that know your name etc.

 

We will be evaluating that decision each year until it is time to put in applications to make sure it is still the right fit and that they are meeting the pre-reqs for admissions etc.

 

The great part about the school we chose is they accept portfolio and letters of recommendation instead of just looking at transcript scores like the other universities in Alberta do. So even if they don't have the highest marks, they can show their abilities, their extracurriculars etc and have that all taken into account. That stuff is often not considered with other schools who only look at how high your grades were in high school.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

A few things from my perspective (why am I even in this thread???)

 

There are several poster who are claiming that correlation equals causation. i.e. Person X went to a top-ranked University. He then got hired and makes billions of dollars. Therefore, going to a high rank U *causes* a person to be hired by $$$ companies.

 

This is a logical fallacy. It ignores that correlation does NOT equal cause, and very possibly, there are compounding factors that affect BOTH a person's ability to get into a top-ranked U and get hired at a particular company.

 

Just some possibilities- People who attend top-ranked Universities and work at top-paying companies might...

- Be incredibly intelligent

- or incredibly creative

- or entreprenurial

- or very charismatic

- etc.

 

And those same persons might have been just as successful REGARDLESS of what school they attended.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Monica, who attended a top 10 school and is now "unemployed" as a SAHM. lol. :-)

[Luckymama]

We live in an academically-focused bubble too. Our county has many chemical, engineering, and pharma employers as well as a major research university. Kindergarteners are subjected to lotteries for the "right" charter schools. Families move into a certain school district so that their children have a better chance at acceptance to a math-science charter high school very high on the USNews rankings.

 

There is just way too much pressure on these kids to "develop their passion." Parents are focused on college admissions beginning during the early elementary years-----Saturday school, math tutoring, year-round sports, specialized residential summer camps. I think that some parents are just TOO invested in their children.

 

And then what happens when the kids don't hit the single-digit admissions lottery? Every year I see disillusioned kids at my kids' high schools, at church, and at ds's old Scout troop :(

 

(Wish I had more time but have to get the day started...)

[SarahW]

A few things from my perspective (why am I even in this thread???)

 

There are several poster who are claiming that correlation equals causation. i.e. Person X went to a top-ranked University. He then got hired and makes billions of dollars. Therefore, going to a high rank U *causes* a person to be hired by $$$ companies.

 

This is a logical fallacy. It ignores that correlation does NOT equal cause, and very possibly, there are compounding factors that affect BOTH a person's ability to get into a top-ranked U and get hired at a particular company.

 

Just some possibilities- People who attend top-ranked Universities and work at top-paying companies might...

- Be incredibly intelligent

- or incredibly creative

- or entreprenurial

- or very charismatic

- etc.

 

And those same persons might have been just as successful REGARDLESS of what school they attended.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Monica, who attended a top 10 school and is now "unemployed" as a SAHM. lol. :-)

 

Was this a response to me? Because in my brother's case, this was definitely NOT a logical fallacy. He admits he learned not much new at his new school. He was just as smart and talented going to the local state - whatever school.

 

My point is that certain schools open certain opportunities. And not all the opportunities stream out of MIT or Harvard, or any of the East Coast brands or the West Coast Super Schools.

 

There are some fields where going to Harvard may be a disadvantage. And there are some fields where U of Whatever may actually be the best choice, even if U of Whatever makes everyone at the family reunion say, "where's that place you're going again?"

 

Though obviously going to a certain school is no guarantee. I'm sure Google and IBM don't hire everyone who graduates from the UNC-CH computer science program.

[SarahW]

We live in an academically-focused bubble too. Our county has many chemical, engineering, and pharma employers as well as a major research university. Kindergarteners are subjected to lotteries for the "right" charter schools. Families move into a certain school district so that their children have a better chance at acceptance to a math-science charter high school very high on the USNews rankings.

 

There is just way too much pressure on these kids to "develop their passion." Parents are focused on college admissions beginning during the early elementary years-----Saturday school, math tutoring, year-round sports, specialized residential summer camps. I think that some parents are just TOO invested in their children.

 

And then what happens when the kids don't hit the single-digit admissions lottery? Every year I see disillusioned kids at my kids' high schools, at church, and at ds's old Scout troop :(

 

(Wish I had more time but have to get the day started...)

 

I agree.

 

But I did spend some time clicking around on some of the links on this thread, because though my kid is 6, I'm already seeing the signs that he'll go STEM, and that is a completely foreign country to me. (He asked me yesterday how water puts out fire, and my response was a lame "uh, go watch Popular Mechanics for Kids again" lol).

 

But I did do some intensives for my own field of study, and I can hypothesize that everyone who gets into those MIT summer intensive courses are there because they think the program is The Coolest Thing Ever!!!! I'm sure lots of applicants applied just because their parents thought it would look good on their college application, but the admissions people screen those out and pick those who seem like they would be doing the program at home by themselves anyways.

 

So, my advice, if I can offer advice, is to show the programs to your kid and ask if that is something they would be interested in. If it makes them cry with excitement, then pursue it. If their response is "meh" then find something else that excites them. Even if it's raising rabbits.

[Dmmetler]

 

What I like about this is that it opens doors and demonstrates that college is not a four year sentence to be served in order to get your papers. I have to admit that if my Dd came to me with "Mom I want to go to X because they have LOTR campus wide birthday parties", my reaction would have a healthy dose of :001_rolleyes: and :bored:. But, if that feature were a bonus accompanying a solid preparation in something she can build upon, I would be more comfortable writing the checks.

 

 

FWIW, the deciding factor for me in what school I was going to attend (with multiple schools, all with solid programs in my interest area, which, at the time was Music Therapy) was the science fiction section of the college library-the one I ended up attending had Jack Williamson on Faculty and he actually was still teaching classes in Sci-Fi at the time (although he was no longer teaching Physics), and had donated his personal collection to the university, and arranged for them to be an SFWA depository library. As a result, they have an enormous Sci-fi collection. And, all else being equal, that was enough to put the school on top of this Sci-Fi geeks list. I spent a big part of those 4 years in that library.

 

Right now, DD's dream school (University of FL) is her dream school because they not only have an Alligator as a mascot, but have LIVE gators living on campus (some schools have a campus lake-at UF, it's more of a campus swamp). And, given that she wants to go into Zoology specializing in herpetology as an undergrad, and go to Vet school after that, UF really isn't a bad choice-they have a strong herpetology concentration with a lot of opportunities for fieldwork. She also wants a competitive cheer or dance team, which tends to limit you to schools where football is a major sport, and seems to like the large campuses with a lot going on vs smaller campuses. However, she's 8, so she has lots of time to change her mind.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Furthermore, an important question here is: what was your BIL's major?

 

History, but my brother was an International Relations major so neither were in STEM.

[Crimson Wife]

\

Could you work for Google or IBM without going to a particular school? I suppose. But you'll have to jump through a bunch of hoops which are not there for all the other candidates.

 

My DH got called by a headhunter for a position one time that wasn't a good "fit" for DH but would've been perfect for a friend of his who was a fellow classmate at an Ivy business school. The friend had an undergrad engineering degree from UT-Austin, which is one of the top engineering schools in the country. The headhunter wasn't interested because the employer only wanted to consider candidates with an undergrad engineering degree from Stanford, MIT, CalTech, or Princeton. The prestige of the grad school and the guy's work experience meant nothing. :rolleyes: This is the reality of today's economy- employers can afford to be ridiculously picky because there are so many applicants for each opening.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I don't think she will actually want to go. She used to watch Suite Life of Zac and Cody. Cody always wanted to go to Harvard. We were in Boston when she was 9 or 10 and went to one of the on-campus museums at Harvard. She loved it and said that was where she wanted to go to college. My eyes about bugged out because I could only see dollar signs. But there is always the possibility so even though she has always said she wants to teach little kids to dance I've kept the possibility in the back of my mine. Then something like the Newtown massacre happens and she tells me she is going to homeschool college.

 

And she is lazy about academics. She comes by it naturally as both dh and I were the same way.

 

One other aspect is she is young. She will still be 13 when starting 9th grade. Since she is slightly above average (bright, but not off the scale genius) being so young has never been a problem. I think the laziness and slight lack of maturity play off one another.

 

What I want more than anything is to be able to keep the doors open for her as long as possible. She won't get into MIT or Harvard, but maybe Boston College. (We both love Boston) Maybe I should just go about it as if she were planning on going to Boston College.

 

Because she is starting a year younger, and because you want more time, why not just take an extra year and have her start 9th at age 14? It would give her an extra year to grow and mature, and give you more time to guide, prepare, and ramp up expectations (if you both decide it is necessary). If she is above average even as a younger student for her grade, getting that extra year would improve her stats (by comparison) even more.

 

Anyway, thanks for starting this conversation here on the general board. I almost never visit the high school board and this thread has been a good read.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

 

Was this a response to me? Because in my brother's case, this was definitely NOT a logical fallacy. He admits he learned not much new at his new school. He was just as smart and talented going to the local state - whatever school.

 

My point is that certain schools open certain opportunities. And not all the opportunities stream out of MIT or Harvard, or any of the East Coast brands or the West Coast Super Schools.

 

There are some fields where going to Harvard may be a disadvantage. And there are some fields where U of Whatever may actually be the best choice, even if U of Whatever makes everyone at the family reunion say, "where's that place you're going again?"

 

Though obviously going to a certain school is no guarantee. I'm sure Google and IBM don't hire everyone who graduates from the UNC-CH computer science program.

 

It was not meant as a personal attack, many posters are in agreement with you. However, I don't think it is fair or logical to generalize anecdotal evidence into a trend. Someone else could cite a similar example where attending a Big Name U did NOT lead to more opportunities. I could also cite examples of people going to No Name U who are now working in their dream jobs, simply because their character traits (intelligence, work ethic, and perseverance) paid off.

 

Considering the price tag of Big Name schools, it is really, really important to weigh out the benefits and risks involved. Graduating from No Name U with no debt can put you light years ahead of a peer financially, even if you start out at a lower salary, because that peer may have 100k+ in student loans to pay off from Big Name U.

 

I'm not saying the name on a diploma is meaningless. I'm saying where you go is (much) less important than who you are and how you distinguish yourself in your field.

 

I think the OP should even allow herself to (GASP) consider things like community college or even working or some kind of life-enrichment for her daughter through charity organizations (as one example) until she knows at least approximately what she wants to do with herself. College is WAY too pricey now to use it as a playground to "find oneself" in.

 

My two cents. I'm not trying to be contradictory. :-) :001_cool:

 

(I'm one of *those* people who won't necessarily push my kids towards college, even though my husband and I were both very happy with our higher education experience.)

[SarahW]

 

History, but my brother was an International Relations major so neither were in STEM.

 

He wanted to major in History, and passed up going to ND? That's just.... a waste of four years.

 

 

My DH got called by a headhunter for a position one time that wasn't a good "fit" for DH but would've been perfect for a friend of his who was a fellow classmate at an Ivy business school. The friend had an undergrad engineering degree from UT-Austin, which is one of the top engineering schools in the country. The headhunter wasn't interested because the employer only wanted to consider candidates with an undergrad engineering degree from Stanford, MIT, CalTech, or Princeton. The prestige of the grad school and the guy's work experience meant nothing. :rolleyes: This is the reality of today's economy- employers can afford to be ridiculously picky because there are so many applicants for each opening.

 

The other problem with life is that 90% of HR people are unmitigated idiots.

 

However, I don't think it is fair or logical to generalize anecdotal evidence into a trend.

 

How people get into certain colleges, and how that impacts their job choices is, by definition, anecdotal. Which is why I think it is very relevant to mention what I have seen work, and what I have seen fail. Maybe someone can learn something from it, kwim?

 

But sure, keep your nose clean, work hard, do what you love. That's all important. What I'm talking about is after that.

[regentrude]

History, but my brother was an International Relations major so neither were in STEM.

 

So you are saying they hired an International Relations guy with no computer degree for a six figure network administration job just because he went to a top school? And he happened to simply be qualified to do network administration from studying IR?

There has to be some missing information.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

 

But sure, keep your nose clean, work hard, do what you love. That's all important. What I'm talking about is after that.

 

Tone never comes across well on the internet. I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, obtuse, or a little funny. But I'm an optimist, so I will assume the best.

 

You can google "best bang for your buck colleges" to find lists and lists and lists of universities ranked by how they actually benefit the students rather than just how prestigious their name is. They describe the statistical trend between ticket price and real benefit. I'm guessing you will be surprised by the results.

 

Of course there is a place for sharing success stories of people we know and how their lives were benefited or harmed by their choices. These are far more inspiring than the graphs and lists the adore-mentioned google search will spit out. But we are talking about an investment of money that is MONUMENTAL for all but the fewest of families. I would not base the decision of Big Name vs No Name on anecdotes.

 

Ultimately, if someone has the smarts and the drive, they will be successful, barring terrible luck. Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but I do believe it.

 

And now... back to not hijacking people's posts... Sorry OP!

[SarahW]

 

Tone never comes across well on the internet. I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, obtuse, or a little funny. But I'm an optimist, so I will assume the best.

 

I was agreeing with you.

 

You can google "best bang for your buck colleges" to find lists and lists and lists of universities ranked by how they actually benefit the students rather than just how prestigious their name is. They describe the statistical trend between ticket price and real benefit.

 

Yes. I attended a super-expensive University for a year that turned out to be complete junk. I mean, the school in general was good, but the department was run was by a-holes who thought their job was to ignore and belittle the students. I'm sure the statistics on that one is awful. But, just as money can't buy love, it can't buy a good education either. Which is why I never said the best schools were the most expensive ones.

 

I'm guessing you will be surprised by the results.

 

Are you being saracstic?

 

Ultimately, if someone has the smarts and the drive, they will be successful, barring terrible luck. Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but I do believe it.

 

Sure. But why put obstacles in the way of your own success if you don't have to?

[Arcadia]

We are planning for our kids to do their gap year between end of high school and going to college. Either that or finish high school at 17 and go to community college before proceeding so as to skip the first year dorm fees. However our kids are still small so nothing is cast in stone. I might just ship them to my cousins as free interns at my cousin's firms to learn from the school of hard knocks :)

 

Ultimately, if someone has the smarts and the drive, they will be successful, barring terrible luck. Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but I do believe it.

 

 

Silicon Valley has plenty of examples that support that thinking. Even with "terrible luck" some of my paternal cousins who are self-employed bosses of engineering firms has gone through bankruptcy and come back stronger than before. Having the smarts, drive and the resilence to bounce back from failures does go a long way to success.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

With the exception of a few public universities (the UC system comes to mind), most big names are incredibly expensive. There are a few exceptions (Rice U is one... and a great one!). If you assume that a brand name school is the best choice, then you have to justify that the tuition is "worth it" to the student. I assumed you'd be surprised by the results of the best-bang-for-buck studies because very few prestigious schools make the list.

 

Anyway, that's all I've got as it's bed time over on my side of the globe. I've enjoyed the conversation!

[Nscribe]

 

My DH got called by a headhunter for a position one time that wasn't a good "fit" for DH but would've been perfect for a friend of his who was a fellow classmate at an Ivy business school. The friend had an undergrad engineering degree from UT-Austin, which is one of the top engineering schools in the country. The headhunter wasn't interested because the employer only wanted to consider candidates with an undergrad engineering degree from Stanford, MIT, CalTech, or Princeton. The prestige of the grad school and the guy's work experience meant nothing. :rolleyes: This is the reality of today's economy- employers can afford to be ridiculously picky because there are so many applicants for each opening.

 

My first thought...and there goes the claim by tech companies, politicians and educators that STEM must be pushed. The message of this is that the problem may not be a lack of STEM qualified workers, but that those 4 schools are not graduating enough students with their school's name on the diplomas. Thus to solve the lack of "qualified workers" problem these four schools must up the numbers they accept and later graduate?

 

This story is not likely to inspire a young STEM potential filled student. The message of work hard, study STEM but it will only matter if you later graduate from one of 4 schools makes the entire effort less appealing. Insert the teen shoulder shrug and eye roll.

 

But wait, why does a tech company need to pay a commission to a headhunter if they can afford to be so picky? With so many applicants for each opening it seems the tech company could manage to cull out the ones not from the 4 schools or just put out feelers to all grads of the four schools.

 

My second thought, It is really a shame your DH's friend is paying for a Ivy business school when the position he would be so well suited for would be is closed to him.

 

The job market can be competitive, but there are only so many who graduate from the Ivies each year. If an employer is so stuck on only hiring from those ranks, they will surely be content while other companies (including their competitors) broaden their range of talent search a bit and go on about doing business. As a stockholder, I like the competitive advantage of the latter employers better. As a consumer I prefer them as well because they may have people on hand to answer the phones and not have to have a message that says "Press 2 two to wait while our headhunter finds someone from x school and only x school to fill a vacant position and everyone else works to cover the vacant position's tasks."

 

All of the above is to say that it is silly for a company to allow a headhunter to bypass a perfect fit prospective employee because the name of their diploma isn't the "right" one....just silly. It happened, but it is silly.

[Dana]

With the exception of a few public universities (the UC system comes to mind), most big names are incredibly expensive.

 

Although with housing, the UCs become very expensive! Our mortgage is still a good bit less than we paid for a rental in a slum at UCSB back in the 90s!

 

(But I so miss the bike paths.... and the ocean. We've got a much better library system out here though.)

[kirstenhill]

For every elite college made a huge difference anecdote, I'm sure there's a no-name state school led to success anecdote and vice versa.

 

In general, my goal is that my kids know there are always different paths in life that can lead to happiness and success.

 

I really like these thoughts. Not everyone even wants those elite jobs at elite companies. My DH and I have both made education and career decisions that don't make "sense" to those who are primarily motivated by career advancement and/or money earning potential. He was still able to land a job that he loves, and we are living in the place we want to live. Is it an astoundingly high paying job? No, but it is more than we "need" and we're happy. It's less stressful and has involved fewer relocations than other career paths many friends from undergrad and grad school have pursued. We've made decisions that we feel fit in with our family and faith priorities.

 

We're still a long ways away from the college selection process with our kids, but I am really hoping we can guide our kids through the process of college (or whatever path makes sense to them) in a way that takes a holistic view of life into consideration, not just "what will get you the highest paying job after you graduate?"

[at the beach]

Studying math, science, social studies, English and foreign language during high school--to ability, plus allowing time to explore interests will hopefully result in us being able to find colleges or vocational paths that are a good fit without focusing too much too soon on the whole college admissions thing. I don't think it's as good an approach to work in advance to have a child fit certain types of colleges as it is to take a look at a child in a holistic way after they have some high school completed--maybe at some point in 10th grade-- and figure out at that point what might be a good fit. Right now, with our tenth grader, she is just now starting to explore what places might be an option for her. I've been looking into this before now, but I think it could have waited. My oldest was clueless until 12th grade. I was doing some research into possible schools, but she was uninterested. In the fall of 12th, she suddenly decided on what she wanted to do and we then found schools that fit her needs. She did more than fine. She's graduating with her pharmacy degree this spring and has a job secured. She did have great grades and test scores, so obviously working to the best of her ability mattered. But looking into colleges much earlier didn't.

 

Getting basic ideas of what various colleges require can help with course planning, but beyond that, too much too soon when it comes to college admissions can cause unnecessary stress and worry. Constantly thinking about the future is a bad habit, too, IMO.

 

Another book suggestion: Homeschooling: A Family's Journey by the Millmans--covers their approach to homeschooling from the early years through high school. Well worth reading. They have a whole chapter on choosing a college. IMO How to Be a High School Superstar is much better than What High Schools Don't Tell You. The latter is really only good IMO for getting some ideas of what opportunities are out there that a parent might otherwise not discover. Debt-Free U is good, too, though don't agree with all of it.

[umsami]

I went to an "elite" college prep school, where 100% of graduates go onto 4-year colleges. I have to say that our college advisor was horrible, as far as I was concerned. His only concern was keeping up our reputation in getting into either real "Ivys" or the State Ivy (where close to 50% of the class went). I ended up pursuing a good school out East mainly because it was one of two who had the major I was interested in. I also was pursued with scholarships by Tulane and Colgate because of some really good standardized test scores--but these were dismissed by the college counselor. Later in my academic career, I had the opportunity to do some post-bac work at a few small liberal arts colleges. Having done so, I realized what a better fit they, or one of the Seven Sisters, would have been for me. I easily could have gotten in as well. There was much more of a professor/student relationship, rather than being pawned off on TAs. Much easier to get good, real recommendations for grad school too.

 

In looking back, the counselor had attended the State Ivy (Univ. of Michigan)... most of the kids went to Michigan... and if we were going to go small liberal arts colleges, we went to one of the Michigan-based ones. If kids went out of state, it was usually only to go to an Ivy.

 

My advice would be to not limit yourself to geography or what you might want for your kids. Start thinking about where they might fit in--but don't eliminate anything right off. Expand your horizons. If most people in your area have attended only a handful of colleges--try to find out about others outside. See if there are summer programs that they can attend as well at various universities. See if any schools have co-op programs as well. It's a great way to get a degree and work experience at the same time. You totally graduate ahead of the pack.

 

Good luck. :)

[shanvan]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

See, this is one aspect where DH and I have a philosophical disagreement with the whole "grooming for selective college" procedure. I want my kids to consider the high school years as a portion of life with a value of its own - not only as a waiting and preparation period for college. If my kid were interested in attending any summer programs, sure, absolutely (except that they are prohibitively expensive; our entire family can travel to Europe for the amount those programs cost) - but just to groom themselves to look better on the college application? No. They should spend their summers doing things they want to do, just because they want them to do, not with the continuous sideways glance to their resumes. My DD did the talent search and qualified for Duke Tip, but she rather spends her summers traveling overseas and backpacking out West than attending the programs.

If the getting into a "top" school requires putting all other interests on halt, forgoing family trips in order to attend those camps and schools, thinking for every activity how it will look to admissions - then that it a price we are not willing to pay, for the 7% chance of getting into a certain school. It is not worth aligning our family's entire life to this one elusive goal.

What happens if a student sacrificed his childhood and adolescence to this and does not get in? (Does not have to be because of qualifications - they might just not need a white, horseback riding, choir singing student from the Midwest, but rather a black, oboe playing soccer player from Alabama to get their well rounded student body.)

 

I'd rather my kids live and explore a variety of interests and not get into Harvard or MIT and attend another good school instead.

I understand that you see things differently, but my experience as a physicist does not convince me that an Ivy school is the only place where one can get a good education.

 

 

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: Just had to applaud this.

[SarahW]

With the exception of a few public universities (the UC system comes to mind), most big names are incredibly expensive. There are a few exceptions (Rice U is one... and a great one!). If you assume that a brand name school is the best choice, then you have to justify that the tuition is "worth it" to the student. I assumed you'd be surprised by the results of the best-bang-for-buck studies because very few prestigious schools make the list.

 

Anyway, that's all I've got as it's bed time over on my side of the globe. I've enjoyed the conversation!

 

 

Sure, which is why the name of the school and it's overall "prestige" doesn't matter. What matters is if the college is able to offer you the opportunities you want.

 

I think we pretty much agree.

 

But there is a reason why some employers look more favorably at certain schools. My brother, for instance, joined a "club" at his new school, one which had its own debate hall and regularly scheduled swing dances for fun (idk, he fully embraced living in the South). He didn't get that at the local commuter-U. Some employers still want their mid-level techs to think and get along well with others, and certain schools have opportunities that encourage this behavior.

 

Just being super hard-working and extra-amazing may work in some cutting-edge fields where the technology is constantly shifting, but in the basic "real-life" degrees a certain school can make your career easier or harder.

 

To use an analogy: think of a talented young gymnast. She wakes up one morning and realizes that she has the potential to become an Elite gymnast and go to the Olympics. But she is still taking classes at the local gym where she started out, one where the coaches think success means funneling the best students into the local High School teams. Should she stay there and see if just working really hard will make her an Elite gymnast? Sure, she could try, and theoretically it could even work. But that's just plain stupid. She starts making some calls to the Elite coaches around the country and then packs her bags and moves. If that Elite coach ends up not working out, she packs her bags again and moves to a different coach. Eventually, by working really hard with a great Elite coach she clicks with she goes to the Olympics.

 

In this analogy Olympics = career, Elite coach = college, and working hard is just a given for success. Yes, I do sort of follow Elite gymnastics, and I've seen gymnasts bomb out of what should be the peak of their performance because they refused to change coaches, or stayed with one who wasn't right for them for too long. No matter how hard they try, this is always a mistake.

 

My basic point is this: if you can go to a school which would make the potential employer say, "oh, yes, that's a very good program" you should probably always choose that over the school which makes the employer say, "I didn't even know you could major in that there."

[Barbara H]

Coming in late to the thread... But, back to the question of the 13 year old.

 

Here's what I'd suggest:

 

1. Take five to ten minutes to look at the overall picture of college requirements for homeschoolers. There is a difference in what is expected for the most competitive schools, more mid-tier schools and community college. The most important thing to pay attention to at this point -particularly if you have a child who is into STEM or is thinking about competitive colleges, is to look at math. The math decisions for 7th and 8th grade are important because they determine how far they can get through the math sequence and what foundation they have for high school science. So, take a quick look, make some decisions about middle school math, and don't obsess about it now. You can find these requirements on individual college websites, but if you don't know what colleges your student is considering I've also put together a printable chart of homeschool high school requirements and a collection of homeschool admissions policies that you might find to be helpful.

 

2. Be careful what you choose to read about college. While there are some really good ideas in that "What High Schools Don't Tell You" book that was mentioned earlier in the thread I'm really cautious about that book because at least three different people have called me in panic/tears after reading that book. Of course everybody is different - some people aren't prone to the "oh no I'm screwing up my kid's future" feeling, but if you are the suggestion of wine and chocolate was a good one!

 

3. If you have colleges in your area, it can be a helpful thing sometime grades 7-10 to get on campus. No formal visits just something really low key like maybe go to the library, to concerts, go to camp, go to the bookstore or the coffee shop. Or, if you happen by a campus while you are on vacation talk a walk through. College is such an abstract concept to a lot of kids and it can be nice for them to just start to get an idea what colleges, both big and small, are like. It is easy to forget when we have a lot of ideas about college that kids sometimes really only have very vague ideas about the whole thing.

 

4. Please remember most colleges accept most students who apply. Of course you want your child to have a good high school education and to be prepared for a good future, but it doesn't have to be a nonstop rat-race to get there. Even for kids who really want to go to Ivy or other highly selective schools, it can be easier to have a sane life while getting well prepared while you are homeschooling than it is being enrolled in public school. There are different strategies for keeping on that track while making school more manageable.

 

Best wishes to all!

[Alte Veste Academy]

4. Please remember most colleges accept most students who apply. Of course you want your child to have a good high school education and to be prepared for a good future, but it doesn't have to be a nonstop rat-race to get there. Even for kids who really want to go to Ivy or other highly selective schools, it can be easier to have a sane life while getting well prepared while you are homeschooling than it is being enrolled in public school. There are different strategies for keeping on that track while making school more manageable.

 

Thank you! And furthermore... :tongue_smilie: I spent my first two years at a state university. I worked my way through those two years, debt-free. Then I transferred to a fairly select private school. I spent only two years there (not to mention half the money!), but my degree is from the better school. Anyway, there is nothing that says you have to follow a "perfect" path. There are many paths to success.

[Parrothead]

Both books came today. One for rigorous planning one for the laid back approach. Hopefully I can take the best of both and it will work out in the end.

[Parrothead]

Well I've skimmed through both books, and decided it is a lost cause. Yes, dd has a passion. Unfortunately we live in the middle of nowhere and there are not a lot of resources for following that passion. Just very local, non-prestigious music, drama, and dance lessons. There is no place to summer intern. No place to stand out. Nothing thousands of other girls aren't doing, and doing better because they live closer to resources, schools and opportunities.

 

This really sucks for her, but there is nothing we can do. Dh's will always keep us away from civilization.

 

So we will just keep on plugging along hoping for the best.

[Alte Veste Academy]

:grouphug: Chucki, you don't have to be in a great school or a big city to find joy. You don't have to work for a Fortune 500 or be on Broadway to find joy. You just have to look for it, and sometimes make it yourself. It's everywhere.

[shanvan]

Well I've skimmed through both books, and decided it is a lost cause. Yes, dd has a passion. Unfortunately we live in the middle of nowhere and there are not a lot of resources for following that passion. Just very local, non-prestigious music, drama, and dance lessons. There is no place to summer intern. No place to stand out. Nothing thousands of other girls aren't doing, and doing better because they live closer to resources, schools and opportunities.

 

This really sucks for her, but there is nothing we can do. Dh's will always keep us away from civilization.

 

So we will just keep on plugging along hoping for the best.

 

 

I'm torn about what to say, but here are some of the conflicting thoughts I have...

 

...get some help in looking for unusual resources for Dd, people who could mentor her locally or long distance. Post her interests here and see if you get advice for ways to pursue it that you may not have thought of.

 

OR

 

...forget the idea of standing out, developing a passion, blah, blah. Toss the books and live, educate your Dd to the best of your/her ability, do what is reasonable to help her develop as a person and call it good. Match the school to your Dd

 

When I read the book that advocated developing a passion (he doesn't like the word passion) I actually felt more pressure, which is funny b/c I've seen the book referred to as a more relaxed high school guide. How does chasing down an interest to the nth degree = relaxed. And what about kids who are genuinely interested in a multitude of things (I've got one). How do you choose an area to highlight? How much pressure is that? How far do you take it? Do you travel for opportunities, hunt people down who can mentor your Dc? And what if you pursue some interest and take up tons of time and energy to do it, only to find that actually Dc would have been better off pursuing something else and has a greater interest in that other area? That book made me feel more pressured. :willy_nilly:

[Parrothead]

I agree, Shavan.

 

As I was reading the relaxed high schooler book I kept thinking "this is just another way to get a hook."

 

Last night I realized that perhaps what will make dd stand out (if anything does) is that she is homeschooled. We will just plug along as we have doing the best we can with what we have. That is all anyone can do.

 

Oh, I did get something good out of the other book. It said keep a list of dramatic productions. I'd not thought of that. So I'll have to start a list for dd

 

There were some interesting bits in both books.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I know what you mean about "the Passion" leading pressure. On moms. I've always thought it was a good idea for kid to have something they are really into - for their own sake, to give them something fun, exciting, pleasurable to focus on during the chaos of adolescence. So I've tried to keep an eye and ear out, and to offer opportunities & resources (without butting in) whenever it looked like dd was getting hooked on something.

 

So she loves theater, acting, performing - and we are lucky enough to have a local children's theater group in town. She does the summer drama camps, and has had small parts in 3 main stage productions. She loves this, so she'll keep doing it. But, when I (gently and supportively) offer her the opportunity to develop her skills in a way that will help her excel in this area - music lessons, dance lessons, voice lessons, etc. she's not interested. It would cut into her play time. So, not a passion?

 

She really likes entomology, so I've offered her opportunities to study and learn more about that - from book learning, to visiting the local college's entomology department, to collecting and keeping insects at home. It's cool, but definitely not a passion.

 

What she has a passion for is horses. She reads about them, she takes lessons, she draws them, she plays with them, she writes about them, she wants to do a science fair project about them. It's her obsession. I mentioned that the local cc has an Equine Science program, so now she wants to go there and study that. This is definitely what passion looks like. So I should be glad, right?

 

But see, the thing is, how many 10 year old girls *aren't* passionate about horses? I was, and I grew out of it. I find myself, to my chagrin, taking this passion less seriously than an academic or artistic passion. I think this is really unfair of me, and I'm trying to examine this. What is it that I think a proper passion should look like? Why am I worried about my 10 year old having one? Now that she has one, why aren't I happier about it? :glare:

 

I guess I'm just obsessing about the passion thing - not really so much for standing out for the purposes of college admission, so maybe this post doesn't belong on this thread - but more for the sake of thinking about the passion itself, and the parent's role (if any) in supporting/encouraging it, vs. standing back and letting it be wholly owned by the kid. Maybe I should start a new thread :leaving:

[Parrothead]

Eh, threads take weird turns.

 

You are correct. Your dd's passion at 10 may change at 16. Or it could be like my dd who had danced since she was 3 and simply wants all she can get. I don't mind encouraging the passion. I'm paying for 4 classes this year plus costumes and the craziness of recital. I'm considering building her a small building with barre and mirrors so she can practice to her hearts content once we move to the farm.

 

What I can't do is rent a second house in Bangor, Portland or Boston so she can do summer intensives or take her study beyond what is available locally. The most I can do is possibly see if there is something available across the border. Then she can say she studied internationally.

 

Encourage, but don't push. That seems to be the best advice I've found for helping kids with their passions. Unless you are Tiger Mom material. In that case I suppose it is okay to push and push and push.

[Barbara H]

Well I've skimmed through both books, and decided it is a lost cause. Yes, dd has a passion. Unfortunately we live in the middle of nowhere and there are not a lot of resources for following that passion. Just very local, non-prestigious music, drama, and dance lessons. There is no place to summer intern. No place to stand out. Nothing thousands of other girls aren't doing, and doing better because they live closer to resources, schools and opportunities.

 

This really sucks for her, but there is nothing we can do. Dh's will always keep us away from civilization.

 

So we will just keep on plugging along hoping for the best.

 

Does she want a career in dance? If so, you are absolutely right. That's very difficulit to do without a certain level of training and experience and that's tough to do in a rural area and tough to do without a lot of resources.

 

I warned against that What High Schools Don't Tell You book for a reason! The audience for that book is upperclass people who are committed to having kids get into the most selective colleges and have kids who look identical on paper. Same schools, same classes, same life time of activities, same high priced camps. It is about manufacturing some "passion" difference to try to make the kids look different when in reality they are taking 15 AP classes and living a life of grind to try to get into that most competitive college. The packaging may sound like a brilliant idea when you first read the book, but keep in mind admissions officers have read that book too and they can recognize that kind of packaging.

 

If your kid is from a rural area, has been homeschooled, is a passionate learner, and has had any hand in creating her own experiences - she is already different. The book is not for you. Imagine if you were an admissions officer sitting there with a stack of applications. You get to the one from the kid who had a job working fastfood, wrote a blog about how they would stage Shakespeare plays if they lived some place with more people, raised a goat, etc. That application already stands out. That's not to say it is enough to get in - the test scores, the transcript - it needs to be there too. But, the standing out part isn't going to be difficult.

 

For kids just starting out high school if your kid has an interest (extracurricular or community service) that lasts all four years of high school, that is definately helpful.

[snowbeltmom]

I have read both of the books mentioned in the thread a few years ago. Both caused me unnecessary stress.

 

Imo, the admissions process at the highly selective schools is so unpredictable that even if one followed every suggestion in the books referenced in this thread, the admissions result would still be a "lottery." Look at the "Results Threads" sometime on College Confidential at each of the highly selective schools to get a picture of how unpredictable the admissions process at these schools is.

 

I have come to the conclusion that I am going to do my best to provide my kids with an education that is tailored to them on an individual level. My husband and I have set goals for our kids and our homeschool that we want our kids to meet, not for the purposes of preparing them for college admissions, but preparing them to be successful and happy in life.

 

I started researching the whole application process when my oldest was in middle school. I am glad that I did because prior to my research, I had never heard of SAT Subject Tests. Knowing what the colleges expect in terms of standardized testing has helped me plan out the schedule for high school.

 

My kids have major extracurricular activities. They pursue them because they love them, not because it will help them look good in the eyes of a college admissions counselor. Imo, this is key. I see too many kids "in real life" and read posts on College Confidential where the kids are pursuing these activities, not because they want to, but because they want to build an impressive resume. That, imo, is a recipe for a very bitter and angry kid if the outcome is not what they were hoping.

[Nscribe]

If your kid is from a rural area, has been homeschooled, is a passionate learner, and has had any hand in creating her own experiences - she is already different. The book is not for you. Imagine if you were an admissions officer sitting there with a stack of applications. You get to the one from the kid who had a job working fastfood, wrote a blog about how they would stage Shakespeare plays if they lived some place with more people, raised a goat, etc. That application already stands out. That's not to say it is enough to get in - the test scores, the transcript - it needs to be there too. But, the standing out part isn't going to be difficult.

 

 

 

Something the books mention but don't elaborate is just how important balancing an incoming class is to admissions. Diversity and crafting the incoming class overall is something admissions deans and staff talk a great deal about and yet it doesn't seem to register with people. I wonder sometimes if it is a subject people avoid because it might stir uncomfortable social discussions....

 

Socio-economic background, regional origin...even gender can be factors. Colleges talk a great deal about wanting their entering class to be rich in diversity. Deans of Admission also talk a great deal about having a sense of what rigor/challenge/exceptionalism is for a kid from x suburb versus a kid from y farm town.

 

Frankly, this is one reason why following some yellow brick road of perfection is very risky business. Susie Q may do everything "right" but be one more kid from the suburbs when Joe Z from east nowhere did what on paper seems "less right" and the admissions people take Joe Z. Why? Because Joe Z offers something to the class diversity that Susie just doesn't.

[Nscribe]

I see too many kids "in real life" and read posts on College Confidential where the kids are pursuing these activities, not because they want to, but because they want to build an impressive resume. That, imo, is a recipe for a very bitter and angry kid if the outcome is not what they were hoping.

 

 

Sadder still, those who are doing it because their parents want them to do it. How awful would it be to do it all right and not only not be selected but know that you failed your parent's expectations of the perfect path? That is just not the relationship I want with the person who will be the mother of my grandchildren (if she chooses to so bless me).

[snowbeltmom]

 

Sadder still, those who are doing it because their parents want them to do it.

I see this quite a bit. It is also horrible to witness a father berating his 16 year old son and reducing the son to tears simply because he lost a match. I wonder if these parents even stop to think about how much long-term damage they are doing to their relationships with their kids.

[ElizabethB]

:grouphug:

 

She could stage a play, run a talent show, run a ballet class for younger homeschoolers, etc. Leadership is valued, too. It sounds like she has a wide variety of interests!

 

We move a lot and what we do really depends on the area, I understand. But, we always try to make the best of wherever we are and enjoy ourselves.