Why would an accelerated reader be struggling with spelling?

[songsparrow]

I have just pulled my younger daughter out of ps to homeschool. Her teacher said she needs to work in her spelling, but I don't have detailed information as to why. She has always been a strong/accelerated reader.

 

What types of issues could cause a strong reader to struggle with spelling? What should I be looking for when evaluating and working with her?

 

I put a query out on the general board for recommendations for spelling curricula, but feel free to make a recommendation!)

[Chrysalis Academy]

I have the same issue with my dd10 - she is an excellent reader and an advanced/accelerated writer, but an atrocious speller. I tend to attribute it to incomplete/practically non existent phonics teaching, as she was in public school through 3rd grade.

 

We found workbook (Spelling Workout) and homemade list-based spelling completely ineffective. She could easily shove a list into short-term memory and regurgitate it at the end of the week for a spelling test, but it had no effect on her spelling when writing.

 

Now, I'm using LOE with her, using the Advanced spelling lists, one lesson a week. We go through the phonograms and the spelling rules, which she writes in a notebook, and then we work through the spelling list. What is effective with this method is that the spelling list isn't something the student memorizes and regurgitates - it is practice in applying the spelling rules and the logic of the language - practice applying the rules you have just learned. This really seems to be helping. It also gives us a language for discussing spelling IRL - if she asks me how to spell a word when writing, I give her the phoneme/rule, which reinforces what she is learning in a gentle way. We also analyze her spelling mistakes this way. I really feel like she's finally learning to think about how spelling works, and why, and I think this will finally make the difference in her spelling-while-writing.

[boscopup]

Lack of explicit phonics instruction. Accelerated readers often figure out phonics for reading, but that doesn't necessarily translate to spelling.

 

My son reads much better than he spells, but his spelling is greatly improving as he learns phonics for spelling. I use R&S, which is a workbook and very independent, yet it teaches the rules and phonograms very well.

[Alice]

I’m a terrible speller and have always been a great reader. I don’t think it’s phonics, my Mom taught me to read using a phonics-only curriculum. My oldest is also a fantastic/advanced reader and a terrible speller. I used a phonics only curriculum with him (OPGTR). We have tried different curriculum, first Spelling Workout and then Spelling Power. He hates spelling, partially because it’s one of the few subjects that are tough for him and partially because it’s boring. I finally decided it wasn’t the curricula as much as that he just hates it and it’s never going to be his thing.

 

This year (4th grade) we are trying a new approach. I am giving him vocabulary to study and learn. He is supposed to study the meaning and the spelling, not necessarily to be able to spell it on a test but to be familiar with it. And then he is doing more writing. Anything he misspells in his writing he has to to look up the correct spelling and rewrite it. This seems to be more effective for him and is definitely more enjoyable. Spelling was the one part of the day that invariably would cause issues for us.

 

I’m really not sure what causes the disconnect but I’m convinced that reading and spelling don’t use the same skills or parts of the brain. My personal goal for my son is that he gets to the point of knowing that words look wrong and are spelled wrong and then he can look them up. That’s how it is for me, I still have many words I have to look up when writing but because I read so much I know that they are wrong. It’s kind of like a saying in medicine...the more normal you see the easier you can discover the abnormal.

[kwg]

Well Alice blew my theory out of the water, lol. My ds10 is an excellent reader, horrible speller and I assumed it was phonics. I did not teach it to him- kind of assumed good reader=good speller.

[Reya]

There is also the fact that most--though not ALL--good readers actually ARE good spellers, but not as good as they are readers, so they attempt harder words in their writing. A typical pattern might be a 2nd grade child who reads at the 6th grade level and spells at the 4th grade level. MOST teachers will "decide" that such a child has a "spelling problem." Really, it's normal development for an advanced reader.

 

Regardless, you'll teach each subject where she is, so it hardly matters. :)

[Bang!Zoom!]

Song, if you look at just the reading portion (forget the spelling for now) - how do you feel the overall comprehension skills are doing? Are there any big gaps there?

[freesia]

I have 3 accelerated readers here, all taught reading using phonics, all terrible spellers of varying degrees. In my family of origin, we were in a strong phonics teaching school and some of us can spell and some of us struggle. I firmly believe that there is a genetic component to it. And, in my family, it is unattached completely to IQ.

 

We work hard at learning to spell. What worked for my oldest 2 was/is Apples and Pears Spelling (and the spell check). My third has been using AAS bc he struggles with writing as well. He will be transitioning to Apples and Pears soon.

[songsparrow]

Song, if you look at just the reading portion (forget the spelling for now) - how do you feel the overall comprehension skills are doing? Are there any big gaps there?

 

 

I hope to get a better feel for this as we work on literature study together, but from what I gather from just occasional informal discussions about the books she's reading, her comprehension seems fine. When she reads out loud to me, she reads quickly and confidently, and only mis-pronounces some larger, less familiar words. She can give me a good review of what's been happening, what characters are feeling, what their motivations are.

 

I find it really interesting that spelling and reading may use such different skills or processes in the brain, since they appear to be so interrelated.

[GoVanGogh]

I posted about my DS and spelling on the "Learning Challenges" board a few weeks ago.

He was a self-taught reader at age 4.

He is now 11 and tested high school level for reading/comp on his last Iowa Test of Basic Skills. He tested at grade level (4th grade, at the time of testing) for spelling - but that testing method is odd for spelling assessment.

To have him write/spell something - he is totally lost.

I have gone back and specifically taught him phonics and all the rules/exceptions. He can tell me all the sounds a letter makes and knows when, say, use a 'c' instead of a 'k.' But to apply that when writing? He doesn't/can't. He can go back and edit his work and find his errors, which I think is important at this stage.

 

In our son's case, he was recently diagnosed with a minor brain injury (from being premature) that seems to tie several learning/developmental issues we were struggling with together. He is very accelerated in most areas, but can't seem to 'pull' spelling or math facts out of his brain. We have had such a hard time getting a diagnosis because DS is smart in most areas so it was nearly impossible to get the doctors to refer us for testing and evals.

We have been doing OT/brain integration/midline activities for two months now and I am now seeing some progress in DS's spelling ability.

 

I only bring this up to say - you may need to look beyond which curriculum to use or what approach would be best. There can be minor or stealth learning issues. I have only had one doctor out of a dozen tell me that a wide dependency between skills (like reading to spelling) is normally a red flag that something more is going on.

[songsparrow]

A typical pattern might be a 2nd grade child who reads at the 6th grade level and spells at the 4th grade level. MOST teachers will "decide" that such a child has a "spelling problem." Really, it's normal development for an advanced reader.

 

I do wonder if there's a bit of this going on, too, as last year she did fine with her weekly spelling words (at least until the teacher started throwing really challenging ones at her!) I don't have specific examples of what this year's teacher was seeing. There was no weekly spelling homework for me to see, and a lot of writing was done in class, so I didn't see it either. If dd had stayed in ps, I probably would have asked for a conference to get more details.

 

I wonder if there are any assessments online that I could give her to see what her current spelling skills are like?

[Bang!Zoom!]

Song, have you seen the workbooks on the root words before? I think those are just excellent. Some are printed on the Greek origins, some Latin, etc. I think those are really helpful in the long run. Prefix and suffix work seems to have a lot of torque when it comes to spelling.

[Dana]

AAS has helped here a lot. DS was not an "early" reader (self-taught at age 6 after resisting strongly any direct instruction), but he's an incredibly strong reader. His spelling is not good :)

 

The bits of phonics he gets from AAS has helped. The rules in AAS are great at giving some explanation. I also have The ABCs and All Their Tricks for reference and it's helpful too.

 

Spelling Workout was NOT a good fit here.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I have 3 accelerated readers here, all taught reading using phonics, all terrible spellers of varying degrees. In my family of origin, we were in a strong phonics teaching school and some of us can spell and some of us struggle. I firmly believe that there is a genetic component to it. And, in my family, it is unattached completely to IQ.

 

This is true in our families as well.

[Kathy G]

I have one who read at age 3 and was a terrible speller. I thought it was lack of phonics but it wasn't. She is a visual spatial learner and also has some dysgraphia. I would never imply that any one else has dysgraphia, but if you are concerned that there may be more than just a lack of phonics, you may want to explore further into learning disorders etc. It is quite possible to be extremely intelligent and yet have difficulties with a certain area. Once we figured it out we were able to tailor her curriculum to help her soar. Best of luck!

[Pod's mum]

Another one here with brilliant readers and Atrocious* spellers. (In immediate and extended family)

My eldest went to school for a couple of years in late primary school, where they worked very hard to 'fix' the gaps from Home education. She maxed out their Lexile tests (reading). Eventually they realised that this very bright girl just could not retain spelling patterns.

 

Some people keep the spell-check people employed.

We keep plodding with her sibling and like another poster said, we work on the principle of recognising it looks wrong and trying to make it 'look' right.

(Not saying I don't end repeated, repeated dictation exercises with my head on the table sometimes, when I'm stupid enough to think we need mastery before progressing).

 

*Edited after spell-checking.

[JennW in SoCal]

For what it's worth, I have found through my own experience and from reading these forums for the past 12 years, that reading level and spelling ability are completely unrelated! There are natural spellers, those that learn with basic spelling programs and those who are seemingly hopeless! I had the latter. My 2 boys, both now very successful college students, were always strong and advanced, though not early, readers. They amazed me with their comprehension and their precocious vocabulary. Their writing was always as lively as their speaking. BUT. Their spelling was bloody awful!!!

 

I found spelling, grammar and vocabulary programs to be utterly useless for my particular boys because they would do a lesson and worksheet perfectly but never apply it to their writing. So instead of wasting time on those I edited their writing for spelling, punctuation and glaring grammatical mistakes then had them rewrite the corrections. I would edit with them looking over my shoulder and would talk about what they did wrong and the spelling or punctuation rule that applied. Typing on the computer helped because they would respond to the red underlining, and slowly but surely their basic spelling errors were cured. They easily understood that many words were easily missed by computer spell checks so always asked me to proof read anything they wrote -- and I always explained the differences, for example, in they're, there, and their. It all sank in over the years. Fast forward and they are thriving in college and getting A's on their papers. They still ask friends and writing center staff to proofread but misspelled words are few and far between.

 

I did do use Sequential Spelling with one ds who had some learning issues, and it was a huge help. It is a program for dyslexic students, but it does the trick for many different learning challenges. You start with a 2 or 3 letter word and start building longer and longer words that word inside -- it is different from studying roots as the larger words are unrelated to the original 3 letter word -- but for some reason it works. A list might start with pat and go to patriot and patiently. The student only writes words until they miss a word, then you stop for the day, and there are no tests or lists to memorize. I think it is AVKO that publishes it.

[NittanyJen]

I would work on spelling at your daughter's level and always try to have her do her best to improve, but not sweat it too much in terms of worrying over the existence of any problems. Spelling and reading are simply not always linked.

 

I have a good friend who graduated near the top of her class from an excellent high school in the 80's, near the top of her class at university, and again near the top of a top-rated law school in D.C. and who now works for a highly regarded law firm.

 

She is very well and widely read in a variety of genres, holds a liberal arts undergrad degree and yet is conversant in the sciences and speaks and reads a Latin-related foreign language fluently. Guess what? She can't spell worth a darn. We grew up together all through school and college. In our school days she hated that she knew she studied for hours for spelling and had to sweat bullets over it, while I never bothered to study and barely did the work and scored the extra-credit. There is clearly nothing wrong with her and it has not impeded her career in the least.

 

I would say treat spelling as not that related to reading, and other than ensuring she works as hard as she is able, don't put more importance on it than it deserves. I may personally be one of those snobs who sometimes judges people who write hand-written letters with words spelled incorrectly as being under-educated, even though I know better (which I know is not reassuring) but the reality is that this is a skill that is rapidly becoming less necessary thanks to computers with increasingly sophisticated grammar and context checking. It isn't perfect yet, but who knows where we will be in another 5-10 years-- and in the long scheme of things, none of us will be perfect in every subject area. If I had to be perfect in Physics in order to be considered a success, my parents and I would be miserable. Fortunately, I did well enough to get by (and my husband has a degree in it, luckily for my boys). It could just be that spelling is an area where your daughter's strengths don't lie, so she will get as good as she's going to get.

 

And that may be okay, once she has done her best.

[Reya]

A search found this:

 

http://www.bing.com/search?q=spelling+placement+test&FORM=AWRE

[ladyinthegarden]

I have a son who began reading at 3 1/2. His spelling level is also not as high as his reading level. He is reading at a high school level and above. I have grown more concerned about it because the spelling skills are causing a writing crisis. I have been working on affixes and roots. Gradually showing him the patterns in the language, and a few spelling rules. Over a month or two he has improved. I found a thread talking about The Logic of English, and I plan to try that. I ordered the book Uncovering the Logic of English a few days ago and I'm watching the teacher training videos on YouTube. I plan to buy the PDF of the teacher's manual, The Logic of English Essentials, and possibly the student workbook, depending on if I feel I need it after viewing the TM. http://www.logicofenglish.com/ and

 

I figure it has been so long since he last reviewed phonics that a brush up won't hurt anything, and the book can be used for bad spellers or new readers. Honestly, I'm so serious about remediating this that I am stopping other subjects that he is years ahead in for this.

[lewelma]

My older ds had an auditory processing issue that affected his speech until he went through therapy at age 6. At age 5 he had taught himself to read and was reading the hobbit by 6, but unfortunately during that year he mapped the wrong sounds to the different letters. b for v, f for th, etc. In addition, he could not differentiate er from or, or short a from short u or short o. l w and r were all the same sound. It was a big huge mess. We used Spelling to Write and Read for 3 years, which is an intensive phonics program. We also worked long and hard on hearing sounds and segmenting words. His spelling did not get up to grade level until he was about 10.

 

Now, year by year his spelling improves. He is no star, but he will be a good speller by the time he graduates.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Arcadia]

For school spelling tests, my older sometimes don't put in the effort while my younger can be a scatterbrain. To me, school spelling test is more of attitude and memory skills than spelling. My boys are both accelerated readers and they often remember the spellings of words they have read before.

 

Older can spell almost all correct without learning his school spelling lists so I am assuming he is on grade level with spelling. Younger spells phonetically and sometimes get it wrong on first try before learning the list. I certainly do not expect their spelling level to match their reading level.

 

For writing, their brains sometimes think faster than they can write and they make spelling mistakes. After proofreading, they could usually get all their spelling errors. So for them, their teachers want them to work on their writing. Older actually type faster than he writes as he is scared of putting thought to paper until he is sure, but it is easy to erase on a computer document.

[Deee]

I am a truly woeful speller. I always have been. I got in trouble for it at school (to the point of caning), never had a gold star on my chart and was made to feel like an idiot (despite being several years ahead in maths and reading). I spent hours each week trying to learn spelling words. I will still rearrange sentences and substitute other words for those I can't spell. I am a voracious reader, I read early, and I won the English prize at school (my English teacher used to marvel at my shocking spelling in year 12). I have a science degree, and I worked for several years as a scientific writer and editor for the one of the world's most highly regarded evidence-based medicine journals. My poor spelling has been a pain at times, but it has never had a big impact, certainly not on par with the importance given to it when I was in primary school.

 

My son and husband are fabulous spellers. Both are/were advanced readers. I have never taught DS12 spelling because it would be silly given that I often ask him how to spell something when we are working on a summary on the board together (he used to find this hilarious). He and I have discussed this and he thinks its because I don't (can't or won't) form a picture of the word in my head. My mother is another advanced reader and lousy speller, as was my dad. I'm sticking with the genetic hypothesis!

Danielle

[mathwonk]

I agree that the two skills, oddly enough, are largely unrelated. My data is not just my family but an entire school where my sons attended. They went to an excellent private school which emphasized reading and creative writing but dismissed spelling as an unnecessary possibly even harmful impediment to reading. They had lots of parent groups designed for various support services ("friends of trees" or whatever) and once in a parent meeting, when one parent deplored the terrible spelling that was rampant in the school, I got a huge laugh by proposing that he and I form a "friends of spelling" group. The atmosphere was so negative toward such a plan that I knew in advance this would be taken as ridiculous, and I was playing my usual wise guy role.

 

My good spelling seemed linked to my good memory, and was improved by dedicated practice on spelling words from a book my ancestors used the old "Blue Back Speller".

 

http://www.amazon.com/Original-Blue-Back-Speller/dp/192924116X

 

Of my two children, one seemed to have the good spelling gene and the other not, but both were apparently harmed in spelling, and helped in writing, by attending the school mentioned above.

 

So I believe spelling to be a skill which can be improved by focused practice, not just phonics but actual learning and memorizing of lists of specific words, a certain number a week, (can you spell asafoetida?) but many people today consider this as time wasted.

[EKS]

You might want to google "stealth dyslexia". That said, decoding and encoding are distinct skills, encoding being the more difficult one (at least in English).

[blondeviolin]

My husband is an extremely intelligent man, but a wretched speller. His is a combination of ignorance of phonics rules (was never taught in school) and dyslexia.

 

I did want to say that it could be that your child might simply "freeze" when asked to develop a complete thought, put it into words and then put it on paper. Some of this may come out as bad spelling.

[alwayslearning]

 

 

He is very accelerated in most areas, but can't seem to 'pull' spelling or math facts out of his brain.

 

This is absolutely my son as well!!! He is incredibly accelerated in many areas, and tested high school level in language/math (even spelling... but it was reading a list and identifying incorrect spellings, not actually writing them). But sometimes he will look at 2+3 and draw a blank. It is maddening. He is working on pre-algebraic concepts and yet simple addition can stump him. What?!

 

Anyway, spelling is tough for us. My son is 9.5. I think it is that difference between writing as a physical motor skill .... and writing to express. If I take away all the pressure of writing correctly, he will write much more for me. He can memorize a spelling list, but then write something later using a spelling word and it will mean nothing. :)

 

It is reassuring to hear he isn't alone. I have always been a good reader and a good speller... but my dad, who is brilliant, is a good reader/crappy speller. Maybe it is just a trait, like others have said.

 

We are going to begin vocabulary and focus on roots, etc, and see if that doesn't help bridge the gap.

 

I wonder though - both my sons were preemies with weeks and weeks of pre-term labor. They both had somewhat traumatic births, though they were healthy (with exception of jaundice) at birth. I always wonder what carries over from those steroids/meds they give you to stop the pre-term labor. Maybe that is a far reach to explain away poor spelling skills... haha. But in the case of a brain injury, my oldest DID in fact have trauma to his neck and had a huge abrasion on his head when he was born as his head was caught in my pelvis somehow. He couldn't turn his head for a few days because his neck was so swollen (poor thing). Makes me wonder...

[Crimson Wife]

I typed up a response the other day but it got eaten :glare: Anyways, my brother is an excellent reader and poor speller. However, his mistakes always make sense from a phonetic standpoint. What his problem appears to be is poor visual memory for which phonetically plausible spelling is correct. There is no rule that tells someone which vowel or vowel team is the correct one in many cases. For example:

 

sceen

scene

scean

 

You just have to remember that the 2nd one is correct and the other two are incorrect. My brother would look at that list and probably guess incorrectly 2/3 of the time. He might even spell it all 3 ways in the space of a few paragraphs. :banghead:

 

He also stumbles with silent and doubled letters (not rule-based doubling but random ones). Bright guy but he has to rely on spell-check and then a 2nd pair of eyes to catch what spell-check misses.

[Mukmuk]

I actually have a great reader and speller. But it's all visual memory. Ds even spells backwards for fun because he says he "reads" it off his brain :o. He's great with verbal spelling. On paper, because he's dysgraphic, spelling can be dicier. Smaller sight words stump him, for example. He often writes a word, sees that it's wrong, and then scratches it out to begin again, so his writing is messy but correct. So possibly in his mind, he has the correct spelling image, but in transmitting to his fingers, a part of the message gets lost :confused1: . His eyes knows the difference so he autocorrects. I notice that as he moves more further into narration for WW4, he's getting even messier, possibly because WW4 narration is hard and requires more resources. Intriguing, to say the least!

 

ETA: I forget to say he's been dx'd as a stealth dyslexic.

[Kathy in Richmond]

My daughter also has very uneven verbal abilities.

 

She's a lightning fast reader (over the past busy week she's read five or six novels) and has terrific comprehension. But she can't spell worth beans (spell check saves her!) and struggles with the "little words" when reading aloud or proofreading her written work.

 

I agree that there probably is a strong genetic connection: my daughter is just like her daddy in spelling. They are both extreme visual spatial learners and probably also stealth dyslexics.

[mathwonk]

all this reminds me again of the 8th grade experience I have recalled here before, of the well meaning but rigid teacher who required us to bring in new spelling words we could not previously spell each week, forcing me to dredge up words like phthisic, asafoetida, daguerreotype, etc... which it turned out he himself could not even read.

 

But also, since I grant that , as my teacher, he easily excelled me in reading and writing, but not in spelling, this argues as well that the two abilities are not closely related.

 

Come to think of it, we do not fault Shakespeare because his spelling differs from ours, or even because the spellings in existence of his own name do not even agree either with our own or with themselves from place to place! I rest my case, at least with those who think that author knew how to read and write well.

[merry gardens]

I'm so glad I checked out the Accelerated Learners Board and found this topic! I need to visit here more often as it makes me feel better to see you discussing topics like this. :D

[serendipitous journey]

I'm sick and haven't read the above posts -- need to get to bed! -- but wanted to say that Button is an accelerated reader and a horrid speller. I tried various things with him; he DETESTED AAS. The free Modern Speller worked okay, but Evan Moor's spelling books have been the best -- relatively painless, he's actually learning to spell and retaining, and with 1 lesson/day each day we're gradually closing the gap btw. reading and spelling.

 

DH: a bad speller, too. Excellent reader though.