Why don't we have the same level of gun violence here?

[boscopup]

As I was reading this thread, I heard gunshots in the background. My across-the-street neighbor is doing target practice. He practices a lot.

 

Just found that ironic. :D

 

(I live in the country, so this is common)

 

ETA: Thank you, MeaganS! :lol:

[Juniper]

 

Roughly, yes.

So 280 in 110 years??

 

School deaths? It would be interesting to see what the US numbers are for the same period. Specifically, school shooting deaths since that is what is being discussed. :)

[MeaganS]

As I was reading this thread, I heard gunshots in the background. My across-the-street neighbor is doing target practice. He practices a lot.

 

Just found that ironic. :D

 

(I love in the country, so this is common)

 

I love in the country too! ;)

[Chelli]

 

Here's an article with some interesting numbers. My DH and I were talking about the same stuff last night and found this.

http://www.motherjon...s-shootings-map

 

Thanks for the article! It definitely backs my memory 44 out of 62 mass murder/spree killings have been done by white males. I still would like to know why the white race seems to be more susceptible to these psychotic breaks.

[Lolly]

Possibly because the US has more gangs? Canada is not on the "drug route". Most of the violent crime here (where I live) is drug/gang related. We are a hot spot on the route from South America/Mexico to the large urban areas in the northern section of the country. Less racism in Canada than here (goes both ways/minority to majority and majority to minority).

[TracyP]

Yeah, but I'm guessing not every single person in the miltia there rushes out to buy a crateload of ammo.

 

They have military and private weapons. My understanding from the article was that you can have ammo in your home for your private guns whether you are militia or not.

[Canadianmumof5]

I did look at the article linked in a PP - there were 240 deaths from school shootings in the US from 1992-2000.

Plus there is a huge list of other school shootings pre-1992 & post-2000.....so way more on a per capita basis.

[TammyS]

 

I still would like to know why the white race seems to be more susceptible to these psychotic breaks.

 

I think this kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. Once we decide (as has been done in the past) that certain races are susceptible to certain things (mental, physical, otherwise) we are on the short path horrible things (slavery, genocide, etc).

 

I'm also not at all sure that these people have all had "psychotic breaks". Seems to me a modern phenom to want to attribute everything to mental illness. We like to ignore that there is such a thing as evil and that some people choose it.

[Mergath]

They have military and private weapons. My understanding from the article was that you can have ammo in your home for your private guns whether you are militia or not.

 

That's true, but my point is that just because someone has their required weapon for the militia, that doesn't necessarily mean they also have ammo in their home.

[Juniper]

Roughly, yes.

So 280 in 110 years??

 

ETA: Looking at the article some more - the US had 240 deaths from school shootings from 1992-2000 alone :( That is only 8 years.....so yeah, the # is significantly higher on a per capita.

 

 

I got slightly different numbers about 325 between the late 80's early 90's until before Sandy Hook. Now, I would just have to know the numbers pre-80's.

 

Again, I fully excpext that are numbers will be higher, but I think we are also dealing with many more issues than Canada is. As one person mentioned being on the drug route and gangs affects the numbers of school shooting deaths, although not spree shooters.

[Melissa in Australia]

Keeping guns away from the mentally ill would be impossible at this point in time. There simply is no reasonable way of doing that AND maintaining everyone's god given right to own as many guns as possible.

Side point

just curious,

what exactly does god given right mean? IT is not an Expression that is used in Australia at all

is it just an expression that Americans use? or does it have some special significance?

 

I am thinking it would in this instance be Government given right.... but I am not sure

[Canadianmumof5]

Copied from the link:

According to the National School Safety Center, since the 1992-1993 U.S. school year there has been a significant decline in school-associated violent deaths (deaths on private or public school property for kindergarten through grade 12 and resulting from schools functions or activities):^[39]

• 1992–1993 (44 Homicides and 55 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1993–1994 (42 Homicides and 51 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1994–1995 (17 Homicides and 20 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1995–1996 (29 Homicides and 35 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1996–1997 (23 Homicides and 25 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1997–1998 (35 Homicides and 40 Deaths resulting from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1998–1999 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
  
• 1999–2000 (25 Homicides from school shootings in the U.S.)
  

[Julie Smith]

I don't know a single person who owns a gun. Not one.

I think that would be unusual in the US???

Aside from the police of course.

 

I only know one person who owns a gun.

 

I do know several people who own paint ball guns. Even my parents who live in a 50 acre woods don't own one. They had a bear come up to the living room window one night. They still fell fine without.

 

My Dad does have a paint ball gun which he uses to shoot at the local wildlife who tries to mess around with his stuff. (ie. get into compost bin, try to move into space under hot tub...)

 

We also had lots of conversations about guns a year or so ago when a family friend was visiting from Germany. Germany has very strict gun rules. If I remember correctly (And what he told me was correct) you can't even own a paint ball gun.

 

Possibly because the US has more gangs? Canada is not on the "drug route". Most of the violent crime here (where I live) is drug/gang related. We are a hot spot on the route from South America/Mexico to the large urban areas in the northern section of the country. Less racism in Canada than here (goes both ways/minority to majority and majority to minority).

 

To my knowledge Canada has a lot less racism then the US. But we have the, um, difficulties (for lack of a better word) between the French and the English.

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't know a single person who owns a gun. Not one.

I think that would be unusual in the US???

Aside from the police of course.

 

 

I am in Australia, I am in a rural area. I know heaps of people who own guns. My neighbour has several.

2 of my boys have a shooting licenses, and go hunting with my brother, who owns several guns.

We have a deer in the freezer at the moment from one of their hunting trips.

 

 

My point being that in countries like Australia people can still have "the freedom" (not an expression used by Aussies) to own a gun if they really want to.

[TammyS]

Side point

just curious,

what exactly does god given right mean? IT is not an Expression that is used in Australia at all

is it just an expression that Americans use? or does it have some special significance?

 

I am thinking it would in this instance be Government given right.... but I am not sure

 

 

WendyK may well have a different answer.....and this is controversial in modern times...but

 

The American idea is that rights are not given by government - AT ALL. They are given by God and SECURED by government. Meaning that we have our rights because God gave them to us and for absolutely no other reason. The government's role in rights is to PROTECT THEM for us, not to give/take/regulate.

 

This all gets philosophical and religious, of course, so different people will have different ideas about it.

 

But the understanding of a lot of people is that if the government can give rights, it can take them away, which means they aren't RIGHTS at all. And if the government does legitimately have the ability to take away rights, then we are not free, we are property (like a dog...the owner has the right to allow them in the house or not, on the couch or not, to live or not).

[Melissa in Australia]

My DH is Canadian, he has friends living in Canada that have guns. One of them is right into hunting and has a house full of trophies. I think he mostly favours cross bow.

His father has some sort of pellet gun. most of his nieces have paint ball guns.

[Melissa in Australia]

WendyK may well have a different answer.....and this is controversial in modern times...but

 

The American idea is that rights are not given by government - AT ALL. They are given by God and SECURED by government. Meaning that we have our rights because God gave them to us and for absolutely no other reason. The government's role in rights is to PROTECT THEM for us, not to give/take/regulate.

 

This all gets philosophical and religious, of course, so different people will have different ideas about it.

 

But the understanding of a lot of people is that if the government can give rights, it can take them away, which means they aren't RIGHTS at all. And if the government does legitimately have the ability to take away rights, then we are not free, we are property (like a dog...the owner has the right to allow them in the house or not, on the couch or not, to live or not).

 

 

 

Interesting. I have never come across this, and have always wondered what the expression meant.

It is not an expression used here in Australia,

Though Australia isn't an overly religious country, after all we were founded on Convicts and religion was the last thing on their minds.

[Laura Corin]

And if the government does legitimately have the ability to take away rights, then we are not free, we are property (like a dog...the owner has the right to allow them in the house or not, on the couch or not, to live or not).

 

 

The government does not own the people in a democracy. The free people freely elect the government to govern on the free people's behalf. This governing may mean changing definitions of rights. And if the free people don't like the changed definitions, then they can elect a new government. Freely.

 

Laura

[Melissa in Australia]

The government does not own the people in a democracy. The free people freely elect the government to govern on the free people's behalf. Freely.

 

Laura

 

And that is the main difference.. America is not a democracy, Canada, England and Australia are.

[Juniper]

I did look at the article linked in a PP - there were 240 deaths from school shootings in the US from 1992-2000.

Plus there is a huge list of other school shootings pre-1992 & post-2000.....so way more on a per capita basis.

 

 

 

Which article? I found the Mother Jones one, but those include workplace and public shootings. Is there an article that links to school shooting numbers, because I am having a very difficult time tracking down accurate numbers.

[Chelli]

I think this kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. Once we decide (as has been done in the past) that certain races are susceptible to certain things (mental, physical, otherwise) we are on the short path horrible things (slavery, genocide, etc).

 

I'm also not at all sure that these people have all had "psychotic breaks". Seems to me a modern phenom to want to attribute everything to mental illness. We like to ignore that there is such a thing as evil and that some people choose it.

 

 

Poorly worded on my part. I apologize. I would never condone a racial link per se, but why do white males seem to find this outlet to vent their frustrations/anger while other groups seem to deal with it differently or not at all.

 

I agree about there being evil in the world, but this is also a fallen world where people do develop illness and sickness in both the mind and the body. According to the research linked above 38 of the 62 shooters above were documented as being mentally ill, including acute paranoia, delusions, and depression. So, yes, while some people choose to do evil things, sometimes (over half according to the above data) these people are dealing with a mentally impaired brain with which to make these decisions to start with.

 

I'm mainly just trying to understand why there is a racial pattern here, not saying that the race is causing these mental problems. Just mere curiosity.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Um, what?

 

 

I was always taught that the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy?

[dirty ethel rackham]

I can't answer why there is more gun violence in the US than in Canada. But to say that it is because we have more guns is simplistic. I don't own guns. I don't want to. But I know lots of people who do. I wouldn't call any of them "gun crazy" (unless your criteria is met simply by owning a gun.) My mom remembers being around guns all the time. Her grandfather, uncle and cousins hunted. Everyone knew they weren't play things and they all knew what a gun did. You can't clean and process a deer without understanding the damage a gun does. My mom remembers her cousin playing jokes on her all the time. One time, when she went to bed, she found her pillow case filled with buck shot insead of a pillow. Another time, she woke up with a rifle in her arms (unloaded of course - no one would have a loaded weapon around unless they meant to use it.) None of these were violent people. My husband's cousin was a gun enthusiast. He collected them and he had many different types. He was very knowledgeable about them and taught my boys some basic gun safety. Not a violent bone in his body. When he was well, he did a bit of hunting, but he just found unusual guns fascinating. I have a friend who goes to the shooting range regularly. One of the gentlest, most non-violent people I have ever met. I was shocked to find that he had a gun, but, then again, he has somewhat of a thrill-seeking personality (rides motorcycles, rock climbs, sky dives, etc.) For him, shooting at the range is exciting. His gun is locked at home and the ammo is locked in a separate place.

 

Could population density be a factor? - Canada has about the same land mass, but only 1/10 the population.

 

The 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Independence is a nice examination of the American ideas about rights.

[elegantlion]

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. ... “

 

I know a lot of people who own guns, either for hunting, sport, or home safety. Because it's been a cultural norm in our area (midwest) for generations you do see most people owning and caring for their guns with responsibility and safety. However, in the "big city" there is a lot of violence and shootings. You can usually guess the area of town when you the news. It's usually gang or drug related. In the suburbs and rural areas where I've lived there are no gangs, unless you count the old men who meet at the diner every week. I beat they all own guns.

 

Within a hundred mile diameter from the city center there are two distinct mindsets about the purpose, use, and responsibility of gun ownership.

[Juniper]

I was always taught that the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy?

 

 

Me too, but I did not realize that GB, Australian and the others were any less a Republic. Don't we all elect officials that decide policy and are accountable to their citizens? Or do the citizens of those other nations vote on all policy changes?

[vonfirmath]

Side point

just curious,

what exactly does god given right mean? IT is not an Expression that is used in Australia at all

is it just an expression that Americans use? or does it have some special significance?

 

I am thinking it would in this instance be Government given right.... but I am not sure

 

 

Rights given by the government can be taken away by the government.

 

There are certain rights in America considered God given (They are rights every human being has, from a power higher than the government) -- and no legitimate government should ever take them away from you. That it is a sign of a illegitimate government when they try to take these rights away. The list starts with life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

 

The right to bear arms is not one of them.

 

The right to bear arms IS in our Constitution, so there is a higher bar to removing that right than the government deciding to pass a law. There is a specific method put forward in the Constitution to change it.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Could population density be a factor? - Canada has about the same land mass, but only 1/10 the population.

 

 

 

It might be a factor between the US and Canada, but European countries are much denser and have fewer gun incidents.

 

Something else that is often cited is the diversity of US society. Canada's diversity has already been mentioned, but I think that people often don't realise how diverse European countries are now. As an example, the borough of London that hosted the Olympics has more languages spoken natively by school pupils than were spoken in the Olympic village.

 

Laura

[Melissa in Australia]

 

I was always taught that the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy?

 

exactly .

there are differences between the two. Look it up in the dictionary

[Laura Corin]

Me too, but I did not realize that GB, Australian and the others were any less a Republic. Don't we all elect officials that decide policy and are accountable to their citizens? Or do the citizens of those other nations vote on all policy changes?

 

 

The UK, Australia and Canada are all parliamentary constitutional monarchies. There is no elected head of state. Instead we elect local representatives whom we send to parliament. In the UK, the party that sends the most representatives becomes the ruling party, and the head of that party becomes the prime minister.

 

Laura

[TravelingChris]

I think most of you have no idea who has a gun unless you ask everyone you know. I don't go around advertising it to my friends, normally. Some people may know we target practice. Others probably think that of course we have guns since dh is active duty military (not at all true since he has never been issued a weapon and had only one hour of practice shooting in the first 15 years of service and then just a bit more because he insisted before he was sent overseas). But we aren't gun collectors, gun nuts, or anything like that. We will probably get a shotgun at some point and do skeet shooting.

 

Anyway, I have never asked anyone about guns and no one has ever asked me either.

[Galatea]

Canada doesn't have the racial history or tensions that the US does. This is probably the most important issue affecting gun violence differences. In the entire population of 31 million in Canada, less than a million are black (less than 3%) and less than half a million are Hispanic (less than 1%). In contrast, the United States has 308 million people with 12% black and 16% Hispanic. I'm not saying those races are more prone to violence, but that the tension among vastly different races, and race relations history in the US, leads to violence. Most school shootings aren't caused by racial tensions (that I'm aware of), but most gun violence in general is caused by either racial tensions or cultural/economic/social issues that are the result of past racial tensions.

[Melissa in Australia]

Me too, but I did not realize that GB, Australian and the others were any less a Republic. Don't we all elect officials that decide policy and are accountable to their citizens? Or do the citizens of those other nations vote on all policy changes?

 

For major policy changes, Yes the whole country can vote on it.this is called a referendum.

An example is a few years back we had a referendum about separating form the commonwealth. Everyone voted on it, and it was overwhelming in favour of staying part of the commonwealth.

[Juniper]

The UK, Australia and Canada are all parliamentary constitutional monarchies. There is no elected head of state. Instead we elect local representatives whom we send to parliament. In the UK, the party that sends the most representatives becomes the ruling party, and the head of that party becomes the prime minister.

 

Laura

 

 

I feel bad for derailing the thread, but I think it relevant. Another poster said England is a democracy. Here is my question, how is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy more of a democracy than the United States republic?

 

From there I wonder how this plays out in issues like gun control.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

How hard is it to become a Canadian citizen?

 

 

I've always felt I was born in the wrong country. I don't understand the fascination with guns, even though certain family members own them and enjoy shooting them. I also don't understand why universal health care is bad. I've always thought Sweden or some other Scandinavian country might be a good fit for me.

[Laura Corin]

i feel bad for sorta derailing the thread, but I think it relevant. Another poster said England is a democracy. Here is my question, how is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy more of a democracy than the United States republic?

 

From there I wonder how this plays out in issues like gun control.

 

 

This Wikipedia article gives a good summary. I didn't say that the US was less of a democracy that the UK. I was just defining the functioning of a democracy separate from god.

 

FWIW, England is not a separate country in governmental terms: the country is the UK. ETA: the reason that this is important is that Scotland, for example, is part of the UK, but not part of England.

 

Laura

[Galatea]

I asked my dh why it's always the Caucasian person who's the shooter, bomber, mass murderer, serial killer, etc. You do not hear of minorities engaging in this behavior. The only example I can think of was the Virginia Tech shooter. I would be interested in knowing why it is white, suburban, middle class people for the most part who feel the need to rampage. To me that would make an interesting study.

 

 

The answer is "first world problems." People who are starving don't commit weird murders because they're occupied with finding food for themselves and their children. People who live in suburbia can create problems for themselves because they don't have any physiological needs to worry about. If you look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the people who live their lives worrying about Physiological and Safety needs are occupied with fulfilling them. But once your most pressing needs are on the Love/Belonging, Esteem, or Self-Actualization levels, there is room for spending time figuring out how to get revenge on someone, blaming other people for your issues, fulfilling some twisted need to kill and the other issues that lead to shooters, bombers, serial killers, etc.

 

[Melissa in Australia]

i feel bad for sorta derailing the thread, but I think it relevant. Another poster said England is a democracy. Here is my question, how is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy more of a democracy than the United States republic?

 

From there I wonder how this plays out in issues like gun control.

 

sorry it was me that brought this up. I was trying to show the differences of thinking between the countries.

According to the Angus and Robertson Dictionary,

Republic- A from of government in which the elected representative possesses supreme power, A constitutional form in which the head of state is an elected or nominated president.

 

Democracy- government by the people or their elected representative, A political or social unit governed by all its members

[Parrothead]

I don't know the statistics, but I doubt most gun crimes are committed by the mentally ill. Gang-related shootings, armed robbery, and domestic violence have to be far more common than random murders. When you combine those things with gun access, you get the high gun crime.

 

I do think Americans are desensitized to the gun violence. There were two cases locally where the father murdered the wife and children. One was a shooting, the other the family was strangled with straw bale ties. The strangulation case received way more media attention than the shooting. And when you have 150 homicides a year in one city, and 120 of them are 2:00AM shootings in "bad neighborhoods", the news stops reporting those beyond a blurb in the police blotter.

 

You forgot drugs.

 

You are right about the rest.

[Melissa in Australia]

The answer is "first world problems." People who are starving don't commit weird murders because they're occupied with finding food for themselves and their children. People who live in suburbia can create problems for themselves because they don't have any physiological needs to worry about. If you look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the people who live their lives worrying about Physiological and Safety needs are occupied with fulfilling them. But once your most pressing needs are on the Love/Belonging, Esteem, or Self-Actualization levels, there is room for spending time figuring out how to get revenge on someone, blaming other people for your issues, fulfilling some twisted need to kill and the other issues that lead to shooters, bombers, serial killers, etc.

 

 

I am afraid I disagree entirely with this premise. there are still sickos in very poor countries.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

 

I was always taught that the U.S. is a republic, not a democracy?

 

 

Same here. America is a republic with democratically elected representatives.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I am afraid I disagree entirely with this premise. there are still sickos in very poor countries.

 

 

Ah, yes, but they probably cannot afford to buy semi-automatic weapons and spray a crowd when they feel like it.

[Galatea]

I am afraid I disagree entirely with this premise. there are still sickos in very poor countries.

 

 

 

There are always exceptions. Some people are so sick or evil that nothing can help them or deter them. But the scale of things like school shootings and serial killers in the US are partly caused by the general "safe" circumstances. I found these two articles to be really interesting: http://en.wikipedia....chool_shootings and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country

[Spy Car]

 

 

Ah, yes, but they probably cannot afford to buy semi-automatic weapons and spray a crowd when they feel like it.

 

 

I think you are underestimating the number of desperately poor counties that are awash with full-automatic weapons like AK-47s and how much damage results.

 

Bill

 

 

[tntgoodwin]

Another term you may have heard for "God-given rights" is "Natural Rights"

[Greenmama2]

 

 

Me too, but I did not realize that GB, Australian and the others were any less a Republic. Don't we all elect officials that decide policy and are accountable to their citizens? Or do the citizens of those other nations vote on all policy changes?

 

Australia is most definitely NOT a republic.

[Abeille]

Possibly because the US has more gangs? Canada is not on the "drug route". Most of the violent crime here (where I live) is drug/gang related. We are a hot spot on the route from South America/Mexico to the large urban areas in the northern section of the country. Less racism in Canada than here (goes both ways/minority to majority and majority to minority).

 

 

Not to be argumentative, but that's not really accurate. Vancouver has long been a gateway for heroin entering North America. When I lived there, it was everywhere along with lots of gang activity (granted, I moved to the US in 1999). A UN report in 2009 found Canada to be "the leading supplier of ecstasy in North America as well as a major producer and shipper of methamphetamine for markets around the world. The report cites the growing influence of gangs — Asian gangs on the West Coast and outlaw motorcycle gangs in central Canada." Full article. I agree that the degree is different, mostly because the population/demand are smaller. But the drug route definitely runs through Canada too.

 

Having lived in both places, I agree that the two countries are quite different. It's something I've puzzled over since I came here. I suspect it's a combination of many factors - origins, ties to the Commonwealth, different political system (e.g. more than two major political parties), as well as gun control and access to health care. Canada will always be my home, but I've come to love this country too. I don't honestly know which I would choose to live in if my dh died.

[elegantlion]

Ah, yes, but they probably cannot afford to buy semi-automatic weapons and spray a crowd when they feel like it.

 

 

There are other weapons of violence. According to Wikipedia (sorry not going deeper than that right now) The Rwandan genocide utilized AK47s, grenades, and according the article, 581,000 machetes imported from China.

[Juniper]

sorry it was me that brought this up. I was trying to show the differences of thinking between the countries.

According to the Angus and Robertson Dictionary,

Republic- A from of government in which the elected representative possesses supreme power, A constitutional form in which the head of state is an elected or nominated president.

 

Democracy- government by the people or their elected representative, A political or social unit governed by all its members

 

 

Okay, I think I get it. The difference is that we do not have a monarchy? We are a Republic, because we elect a President. I am not trying to be difficult at all. I just couldn't quite understand what you were getting at. Still a little confused on that end ;), but I am honestly a bit to distracted to give this thread much more of my attention. Now, I am off to the Hive bar to see if I can find a fun drink recipe!

[Spy Car]

Some people are so sick or evil that nothing can help them or deter them.

 

 

Not keeping assault rifles in the homes of mentally ill people might help deter them. Having background checks that make it impossible to purchase weapons legally might deter them. Having treatment centers for violent people with mental illness might both help and deter them. There are positive things that could help.

 

Bill

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I think you are underestimating the number of desperately poor counties that are awash with full-automatic weapons like AK-47s and how much damage results.

 

Bill

 

 

Well, you have your socially sanctioned wacko-ism, like in Afghanistan, or drug rings like in Mexico, perhaps. I was thinking more of the individual mentally ill person in say, the back jungle of Cambodia, who cannot afford to buy a weapon to go blow away half his village.