Why don't we have the same level of gun violence here?

[Canadianmumof5]

I've seen & heard lots of heated discussion about the pros/cons of gun control in the US.

 

But what I just don't understand is why Canada has a significantly lower rate of gun violence/deaths vs. USA?

We have a similar demographic profile, we have video games, we have drug abuse, we have violent TV shows, we have the same music, we have mental illness, we have poverty, we have eroding value systems, etc, etc. We have all of the same things that the US has in terms of what other people say are leading to more crimes like Newtown. The only difference is we have HUGE restrictions on who can have a gun & what kind it can be.

 

If this had already been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere - please link for me so I can educate myself.

 

Am I missing something? I am genuinely perplexed how our 2 countries can be so similar and yet so different in this one area? And the only thing I can point to is the gun control?

[LaxMom]

I think one reason is gun control, and the other is simply culture. We still seem to be living in a the frontier mindset; eat or be eaten.

 

What I can't get over is why we have to reinvent the wheel on every.single.issue. What if we just wiser up and started adopting policy (with appropriate tweaks) we see working well elsewhere? It really boggles the mind.

 

 

[Guest inoubliable]

The only difference is we have HUGE restrictions on who can have a gun & what kind it can be.

 

 

 

There you go!

 

I realize that's a very simple answer, but that's the answer I get from my Canadian friends when we've talked about it before. I get the idea that Canadians have a different culture than the U.S. does. Isn't Fox News (as we know it here) unable to call itself a "news" channel there? (I'm not getting into whether or not I find value in Fox News, but pointing out that Fox News is a major source of information for some of the population here and it's contentious.) Isn't your healthcare more easily accessed and afforded there? (This goes towards mental health evaluations and treatment for the purpose of this discussion, since that's already been proposed as a factor.) Those are just a couple of things that stand out in my memory in discussions of this sort with my Canadian friends.

[Pawz4me]

What I can't get over is why we have to reinvent the wheel on every.single.issue. What if we just wiser up and started adopting policy (with appropriate tweaks) we see working well elsewhere? It really boggles the mind.

 

I don't mean this to be political, but at the risk of getting moderated . . . IMO it's because so many politicians on both sides can't admit in any way, shape or form that another country could be doing something in a better way than we are. And yes, it does indeed boggle the mind.

[swellmomma]

I agree OP. For 2 countries that are so similar in so many ways, and many Canadians worry/gripe about how our country is becoming americanized. When it comes to some things we are worlds apart. As a Canadian I don't think I will ever be able to get into the mindset of a country that thinks social reform including universal health care (which I think more citizens would want if it did not mean higher taxes) and better gun legislation etc.

 

I hear many American's making comments about the various amendment rights etc, but I think even if the constitution was deemed useless and rewritten nothing would change. It's a mindset not a peice of paper kwim. It's funny because many American's make comments about Canada's socialistic ways and act like they are the only country with freedom etc. Umm nope we have plenty of freedom. We just have a culture that is about helping each other, rather than using each other as steps along the way to helping ourselves.

 

I don't think as Canadians we will ever fully understand it because this rabid belief that one must own guns, and even better one must own many guns, to be a patriotic American is so freaking foreign to us. It's one of those things that keeps 2 countries otherwise so similar miles apart in culture.

[Mergath]

I would guess that it's a combination of stricter regulations on gun ownership and better medical care for people with mental health issues. Those are really the two main issues when it comes to mass shootings, and Canada does them both better.

[Mergath]

 

I don't think as Canadians we will ever fully understand it because this rabid belief that one must own guns, and even better one must own many guns, to be a patriotic American is so freaking foreign to us. It's one of those things that keeps 2 countries otherwise so similar miles apart in culture.

 

 

I'm an American AND a former soldier, and I don't get this myself. I feel no need whatsoever to own a gun.

[justLisa]

I have lots of family in Canada, and in another country. What I don't like is to hear "all Americans this" and "all Canadians that."

[Mergath]

 

Well at least you give me some hope.

 

 

Lol, well, don't get your hopes up too much. I did my training at Ft. Jackson and in California. Spent all my time in the Army with a bunch of paper pushers. :p If I'd had some kind of combat MOS, I'd probably be like that guy in Avatar, running around with a giant weapon yelling, "Get some!" every five minutes.

[justLisa]

Oh and I'm bracing myself for the comments that it's not American to be against guns.

 

I'm sure it's coming at some point.

 

I don't see the need. A friend had some pictures of her kids 4 and 5 with dad helping them hold up a hand gun. I about passed out. They live in the country though. So maybe they fear bears or something. We don't hunt. We live in the city. I just don't want to have one. I'd be freaked out to live here

[TravelingChris]

Our countries are not the same. We aren't the same culture. For that matter, many parts of the US have different cultures. The US is not one culture.

[Parrothead]

I think you guys are able to get all of your violent tendencies out during hockey season.

[swellmomma]

Americans are gun happy.

 

(some Americans)

 

 

See as a Canadian I don't get why being gun happy it good... Why not be hockey happy, or Timmie's happy...mmm Timmie's...why guns?

 

I get some people collect them, they do that here too, but the rules about storage and registration apply. Some people hunt, again registration, regulations about the types of guns used etc. I don't know of anyone that has a concealled carry permit, heck half the time the cops don't have real guns on them, they have taser guns, or rubber bullet guns. Yes bad guys still get guns, legistlation does not completely eliminate that, but it does get rid of almost all crimes where guns were used as a weapon of opportunity. If you do not have a gun with you, even if you want to shoot someone in the moment the worst you end up doing is maybe swinging a punch or throwing something, mostly you flip them the bird and swear at them. Kids do not have easy access to guns so accidental childhoos shootings are rare, and children are not bringing guns to school.

 

Mental health services are not stellar here, trust me I have been dealing with the system for years for ds BUT we do have access to free therapy and assessments. For most that is enough, it is harder with children with mood disorders as then you need a private clinic blah blah blah. It is not without it's faults, but at least we can access help for mental health services without much trouble. WHen I have called to the place we can go for free closest to me, I have never had to wait more than a day to be seen, if it was a crisis situation the ER will detain theperson for assessment for 24 hours, giving time to get the person safe. You can call the police or EMTs to take the person for that if necessary.

 

Keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and getting them services instead is a huge one.

 

No system is perfect, no country has it exact. It is easy as an outsider to look at another country and say "you are doing it wrong...do it our way!" after all isn't that what the US does all the time?

 

It is just hard when time and time again we see this kind of violence play out and nothing changes! Locking down schools and punishing the innocent children is not the answer, removing the opportunity to access the weapons generally used in these sorts of attacks is. What are you supposed to do lock down a whole country? Because these shootings are not just as schools. So now all public buildings must me locked down incase a madman brings a gun? Why not just take away the access to the guns so that the innocents can live their lives without fear.

 

That is where Canadians and Americans differ. Canadians say what about everyone else, what about their right to live a peaceful life! Americans say what about me, what about my right to own guns?

[justLisa]

There are people so in love with their guns here, that they believe everyone should be required to learn how to use one and to carry one. No joke.

 

Yeah, a while ago someone was insisting I didn't know insisting I didnt' know enough about them and that I should go target practicing and learn how to take one apart, clean it etc. Uh, yeah. SURELY that will make me want one. I am not stupid. I just don't like them

[Canadianmumof5]

I have lots of family in Canada, and in another country. What I don't like is to hear "all Americans this" and "all Canadians that."

 

My comment was more general as a country....not saying that ALL Americans are X or all Canadians are Y....just trying to understand how this one area is so different (thankfully).

 

Our countries are not the same. We aren't the same culture. For that matter, many parts of the US have different cultures. The US is not one culture.

 

For sure - understood. We are not the same here either - Quebec is very different, and so is the East Coast. Regional differences don't really explain it though.

 

The healthcare argument makes sense - the access to healthcare for the mentally ill is better here I would imagine. That is, if people actually do use it.

[BigMamaBird]

See as a Canadian I don't get why being gun happy it good... Why not be hockey happy, or Timmie's happy...mmm Timmie's...why guns?

 

I get some people collect them, they do that here too, but the rules about storage and registration apply. Some people hunt, again registration, regulations about the types of guns used etc. I don't know of anyone that has a concealled carry permit, heck half the time the cops don't have real guns on them, they have taser guns, or rubber bullet guns. Yes bad guys still get guns, legistlation does not completely eliminate that, but it does get rid of almost all crimes where guns were used as a weapon of opportunity. If you do not have a gun with you, even if you want to shoot someone in the moment the worst you end up doing is maybe swinging a punch or throwing something, mostly you flip them the bird and swear at them. Kids do not have easy access to guns so accidental childhoos shootings are rare, and children are not bringing guns to school.

 

Mental health services are not stellar here, trust me I have been dealing with the system for years for ds BUT we do have access to free therapy and assessments. For most that is enough, it is harder with children with mood disorders as then you need a private clinic blah blah blah. It is not without it's faults, but at least we can access help for mental health services without much trouble. WHen I have called to the place we can go for free closest to me, I have never had to wait more than a day to be seen, if it was a crisis situation the ER will detain theperson for assessment for 24 hours, giving time to get the person safe. You can call the police or EMTs to take the person for that if necessary.

 

Keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and getting them services instead is a huge one.

 

No system is perfect, no country has it exact. It is easy as an outsider to look at another country and say "you are doing it wrong...do it our way!" after all isn't that what the US does all the time?

 

It is just hard when time and time again we see this kind of violence play out and nothing changes! Locking down schools and punishing the innocent children is not the answer, removing the opportunity to access the weapons generally used in these sorts of attacks is. What are you supposed to do lock down a whole country? Because these shootings are not just as schools. So now all public buildings must me locked down incase a madman brings a gun? Why not just take away the access to the guns so that the innocents can live their lives without fear.

 

That is where Canadians and Americans differ. Canadians say what about everyone else, what about their right to live a peaceful life! Americans say what about me, what about my right to own guns?

 

 

As I'm reading this all I can see out the corner of my eye is your kitten with a rifle.

[Canadianmumof5]

I think you guys are able to get all of your violent tendencies out during hockey season.

 

 

LOL

 

Except they are on strike this season :thumbdown:

[FairProspects]

That is where Canadians and Americans differ. Canadians say what about everyone else, what about their right to live a peaceful life! Americans say what about me, what about my right to own guns?

 

 

 

Hmm...the line between public good and individual rights. There is an American hot button issue for you. Also an interesting philosophical debate.

[tntgoodwin]

I am interested in the same question, but about Switzerland...

[Mergath]

 

 

Hmm...the line between public good and individual rights. There is an American hot button issue for you. Also an interesting philosophical debate.

 

 

Ugh. I've learned not to get involved in that particular debate. As soon as you say something about the public good, the other party inevitably starts shrieking something about socialism, at which point any kind of intelligent discussion goes out the window. :glare:

[Canadianmumof5]

I don't know a single person who owns a gun. Not one.

I think that would be unusual in the US???

Aside from the police of course.

[swellmomma]

As I'm reading this all I can see out the corner of my eye is your kitten with a rifle.

 

 

He's American he can't help it!

 

 

Totally j/king people relax...

 

 

As for MG kitty, he does my shooting for me, I don't own guns, but I would never mess with a gun owning kitty cat.

[QueenCat]

I don't know a single person who owns a gun. Not one.

I think that would be unusual in the US???

Aside from the police of course.

 

 

From what I can tell, more people I know do not own guns than do.....

[swellmomma]

I think you guys are able to get all of your violent tendencies out during hockey season.

 

 

Probably, though with the strike this year there is going to be an awful lot of aggressive Canadians since they could let it out over hockey. Watch out world, they may have to focus on curling instead, and trust me, nothing good will come from aggressive curlers.

[swellmomma]

 

I would never give a cat a gun. Cat's are not stable. LOL

 

 

Yes, but there is never a good cat shrink available when you need one. If my kitty wants to take over the world, I will equip him well enough to succeed completely.

[Mergath]

I am interested in the same question, but about Switzerland...

 

 

Universal health care, for one. Also, while many in their country have guns because they're in the country's militia, the ammo for those guns is kept in a military armory.

 

Google is your friend. ;)

[Guest inoubliable]

The only person that I know of personally who owns a gun is my FIL. A man who has threatened his local police in the past with his guns. :glare: He still has a whole house full of them. Hunting rifles and guns that he owns solely for the purpose of being the baddest badass on the block. Ridiculous.

[FairProspects]

Have many of you ever actually asked a lot of friends/acquaintances about guns though?

 

We live in a generally liberal area so I was not expecting a lot of people to own guns, but when we were setting up playgroups through a Moms Club, one of the questions was about gun ownership, how they were locked up, where the ammo was, etc. I was seriously shocked at the number of people applying for a playgroup with small children who responded that they did indeed have guns in their home.

[justLisa]

How hard is it to become a Canadian citizen?

 

 

My inlaws are pretty close to you. They would love you. And then I can visit!

[justLisa]

Have many of you ever actually asked a lot of friends/acquaintances about guns though?

 

We live in a generally liberal area so I was not expecting a lot of people to own guns, but when we were setting up playgroups through a Moms Club, one of the questions was about gun ownership, how they were locked up, where the ammo was, etc. I was seriously shocked at the number of people applying for a playgroup with small children who responded that they did indeed have guns in their home.

 

 

I know many hunters that have a safe full.

[Mergath]

How hard is it to become a Canadian citizen?

 

I looked it up once, and they're annoying picky. ;) I did grow up along the US/Canadian border, so I've always wondered if I could get some kind of citizenship via proximity or something, lol. I mean, northern Minnesota is practically part of Canada anyway.

[Mergath]

Maybe I could ask for asylum.

 

Do you speak French? They really like people who speak French.

[TammyS]

I've seen & heard lots of heated discussion about the pros/cons of gun control in the US.

 

But what I just don't understand is why Canada has a significantly lower rate of gun violence/deaths vs. USA?

We have a similar demographic profile, we have video games, we have drug abuse, we have violent TV shows, we have the same music, we have mental illness, we have poverty, we have eroding value systems, etc, etc. We have all of the same things that the US has in terms of what other people say are leading to more crimes like Newtown. The only difference is we have HUGE restrictions on who can have a gun & what kind it can be.

 

If this had already been discusses ad nauseum elsewhere - please link for me so I can educate myself.

 

Am I missing something? I am genuinely perplexed how our 2 countries can be so similar and yet so different in this one area? And the only thing I can point to is the gun control?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canada

[justLisa]

I am officialy done discussing guns. And I hate America vs Canada speaks. I know many people in Canada who do not like the government. I know many people in America who do not like the government. I know many people in Cananda who do like the government, and I know many people in America who do like the government. But just because the current laws in a certain area speak to a particular message, that does not mean that everyone believes in it. This past election was about as 50/50 as you can get.

[Mergath]

 

My dad speaks French. Would that help?

 

Only if you're under eighteen and he's going too. ;) I think you get a few bonus points for speaking just basic French, so maybe he could teach you how to say, "Hello! I love your beautiful country and would like to join, please."

[FairProspects]

 

I looked it up once, and they're annoying picky. ;) I did grow up along the US/Canadian border, so I've always wondered if I could get some kind of citizenship via proximity or something, lol. I mean, northern Minnesota is practically part of Canada anyway.

 

Back in the early 2000s when their economy was in the cr@pper, it was super easy for Americans to get a job in Canada according to some of my Canadian co-workers. I think now it is different now though.

[BarbecueMom]

I don't know the statistics, but I doubt most gun crimes are committed by the mentally ill. Gang-related shootings, armed robbery, and domestic violence have to be far more common than random murders. When you combine those things with gun access, you get the high gun crime.

 

I do think Americans are desensitized to the gun violence. There were two cases locally where the father murdered the wife and children. One was a shooting, the other the family was strangled with straw bale ties. The strangulation case received way more media attention than the shooting. And when you have 150 homicides a year in one city, and 120 of them are 2:00AM shootings in "bad neighborhoods", the news stops reporting those beyond a blurb in the police blotter.

[Chelli]

I asked my dh why it's always the Caucasian person who's the shooter, bomber, mass murderer, serial killer, etc. You do not hear of minorities engaging in this behavior. The only example I can think of was the Virginia Tech shooter. I would be interested in knowing why it is white, suburban, middle class people for the most part who feel the need to rampage. To me that would make an interesting study.

[Canadianmumof5]

http://en.wikipedia....shooting#Canada

 

That was eye opening.....so Canada has had 28 deaths from school shootings since 1902. Sadly & tragically, half of those were in Montreal in 1989 :(

 

Thanks for that link.

 

ETA: My high school was the one in 1975.....it was a few years before i was there.

[Guest inoubliable]

I asked my dh why it's always the Caucasian person who's the shooter, bomber, mass murderer, serial killer, etc. You do not hear of minorities engaging in this behavior. The only example I can think of was the Virginia Tech shooter. I would be interested in knowing why it is white, suburban, middle class people for the most part who feel the need to rampage. To me that would make an interesting study.

 

Here's an article with some interesting numbers. My DH and I were talking about the same stuff last night and found this.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

[Canadianmumof5]

 

we could talk about bacon

 

We have better bacon too :smilielol5:

[Spy Car]

 

 

There you go!

 

I realize that's a very simple answer, but that's the answer I get from my Canadian friends when we've talked about it before. I get the idea that Canadians have a different culture than the U.S. does. Isn't Fox News (as we know it here) unable to call itself a "news" channel there? (I'm not getting into whether or not I find value in Fox News, but pointing out that Fox News is a major source of information for some of the population here and it's contentious.) Isn't your healthcare more easily accessed and afforded there? (This goes towards mental health evaluations and treatment for the purpose of this discussion, since that's already been proposed as a factor.) Those are just a couple of things that stand out in my memory in discussions of this sort with my Canadian friends.

 

Could one (or more) of our Canadian friends reposed to this post, as I'm most interested in the answers.

 

Bill

[Mergath]

My husband's employer does business in Canada. Maybe that would be an in.

 

Although, it's cold in Canada isn't it? Brrrrr...NY is cold enough.

 

Suck it up, buttercup.

 

:D

[TracyP]

Universal health care, for one. Also, while many in their country have guns because they're in the country's militia, the ammo for those guns is kept in a military armory. Google is your friend. ;)

 

Only their military ammo. They keep their private ammo at home. Time article

 

America is so different from the rest of the world. It is hard to put your finger on just one thing, IMO.

From the above linked article:

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. ...

 

“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,†says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support†rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.

 

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,†he tells TIME.

 

That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.

[Mergath]

Only their military ammo. They keep their private ammo at home. Time article

 

 

 

Yeah, but I'm guessing not every single person in the miltia there rushes out to buy a crateload of ammo.

[K&Rs Mom]

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,†he tells TIME.

 

That makes sense - they know what guns are for and treat them like the tool that they are, instead of creating a cult-like atmosphere around them, shrouded in mystery and imagined glory.

 

Another thought: this is something that is totally polarized in the US. I imagine in other places, saying people "love" or "hate" guns would be like saying they love or hate shovels or wrenches - it just doesn't make any sense. I get the impression other countries are not as polarized on anything, that we "take sides" easier maybe?

[Juniper]

That was eye opening.....so Canada has had 28 deaths from school shootings since 1902. Sadly & tragically, half of those were in Montreal in 1989 :(

 

Thanks for that link.

 

ETA: My high school was the one in 1975.....it was a few years before i was there.

 

 

Also, the US has approximately 310 million people, Canada 35 million. If I do the math that is the equivalent of 280 school deaths (multiplying out by 10). Did I do that correctly?

 

Edited: I love Canada and would be beyond happy to emigrate.

[Canadianmumof5]

Could one (or more) of our Canadian friends reposed to this post, as I'm most interested in the answers.

 

Bill

 

Sorry Bill - no idea about Fox.

Universal healthcare - check. And yes, we do have issues with our healthcare, but nothing at all like what I've seen posted on the boards. I have never, ever had to directly pay for any medical treatment (outside of paying taxes).

[Canadianmumof5]

Also, the US has approximatly 310 million people, Canada 35 million. If I do the math that is the equivalent of 280 school deaths. Did I do that correctly?

 

Roughly, yes.

So 280 in 110 years??

 

ETA: Looking at the article some more - the US had 240 deaths from school shootings from 1992-2000 alone :( That is only 8 years.....so yeah, the # is significantly higher on a per capita.

[MeaganS]

 

 

Also, the US has approximatly 310 million people, Canada 35 million. If I do the math that is the equivalent of 280 school deaths. Did I do that correctly?

 

That was what I was wondering. We have so many more shootings because we have a larger population. I'm not sure the numbers, but that was my first thought.