Why don't we have the same level of gun violence here?

[Joker]

Which brings us back to something I posted at the start of this thread about the differences between to the 2 societies. Most in Canada think in terms of the greater good, how to make things better for the other people walking around. Many Americans think in terms of the personal good, if not easier/better etc for the individual it is seen as a punishment even when it is for the greater good.

 

 

I don't own a gun and don't feel a need for one. I am thinking of those I know that do need one. I've never thought of myself as someone who only thinks of myself. That's not who I am nor are most of the people I know. I feel many of those Americans you speak of are actually thinking of their families and loved ones, not so much themselves. They want to protect and sometimes they have had to do just that and with a firearm, so they're not to keen on the idea others want to remove them. I don't feel it is for our greater good to remove all firearms. I do want the loopholes closed and a way to make sure guns don't end up in the wrong hands, but most definitely not removing all or making it harder for those who are not abusing guns.

[Dory]

 

 

Okay. 15 mins. Let's say you live waaaay out in the middle of nowhere and it's snowing and it's all uphill to get there. 45 minutes. Well, gee, I'd be glad that those 45 minutes didn't include a drunk idiot with a loaded firearm.

 

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that a gun is the best defense against a bear...

 

A gun has always worked best against a bear around here.

[Guest inoubliable]

That's not how it is here, they have to come to your house for a check, and this is a stupid analogy, people are not animals.

 

And people who own guns already DO those things. THis is exactly what I mean. People who aren't around them and just watch the news have this fictional ideal about gun ownership that is just that, fictional.

 

And the drunk jerkbag didn't need a gun with me, he just slammed my head into a 180 yo stone wall until I was passing out, and broke my jaw.

 

You're not doing so well on the analogies.

 

See, evil people will be evil with whatever they have.

 

Eh. I didn't equate people with animals. My example was placing the guns and the proposed process for obtaining them as similar to pets and the process for obtaining them.

 

And, not every person who owns a gun already does those things. Of course they don't. If they did, we wouldn't have stories of toddlers getting hold of their parent's guns. I have no idea what fictional ideal about gun ownership you think I have.

 

And, you're right. People who are hell bent on injuring/killing someone will find a way to do it. I don't see an arms race by the general population taking care of that, though.

[justamouse]

Okay. 15 mins. Let's say you live waaaay out in the middle of nowhere and it's snowing and it's all uphill to get there. 45 minutes. Well, gee, I'd be glad that those 45 minutes didn't include a drunk idiot with a loaded firearm.

 

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that a gun is the best defense against a bear...

 

These arguments make no sense.

 

 

And, from a hunting family, yes, a gun IS the best defense. It's why we have bear hunting in NJ.

 

The farmers just shoot them and bury them.

[Guest inoubliable]

A gun has always worked best against a bear around here.

 

Terrifying. Truly.

 

I guess, IMO, if you're going to live in an area around bears, it makes more sense to understand bear behavior and learn the signs of a bear being nearby. Oh, and bear spray, if it comes down to an outright attack.

 

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

[Whereneverever]

 

 

These arguments make no sense.

 

 

And, from a hunting family, yes, a gun IS the best defense. It's why we have bear hunting in NJ.

 

The farmers just shot them and bury them.

 

I'm trying to picture another way to effectively deter a brown or grizzly bear. People are attacked here and Yellowstone has had four deaths from bear attacks in the last year or two.

[Dory]

 

 

Eh. I didn't equate people with animals. My example was placing the guns and the proposed process for obtaining them as similar to pets and the process for obtaining them.

 

And, not every person who owns a gun already does those things. Of course they don't. If they did, we wouldn't have stories of toddlers getting hold of their parent's guns. I have no idea what fictional ideal about gun ownership you think I have.

 

And, you're right. People who are hell bent on injuring/killing someone will find a way to do it. I don't see an arms race by the general population taking care of that, though.

 

Taking guns away won't do away with the violence either though. If evil people will do evil things whether they have guns or not, why is the focus on guns? Wouldn't the finances and energy be more useful in other area such as mental health, parent support type programs, and more research into some of these issues so that we would better know how to deal with the problems before they hit this point.

 

It might help if society as a whole gave up the whole "it's never my fault" attitude that people seem to have anymore.

[justamouse]

 

Eh. I didn't equate people with animals. My example was placing the guns and the proposed process for obtaining them as similar to pets and the process for obtaining them.

 

And, not every person who owns a gun already does those things. Of course they don't. If they did, we wouldn't have stories of toddlers getting hold of their parent's guns. I have no idea what fictional ideal about gun ownership you think I have.

 

And, you're right. People who are hell bent on injuring/killing someone will find a way to do it. I don't see an arms race by the general population taking care of that, though.

 

 

How many toddlers get a hold of their parent's guns --what's the statistic in comparison to ALL Of the gun owners? I'm betting it's less than one percent.

 

Your fictional idea is that people don't already go learn about responsible gun ownership. We don't worry about that because most people are responsible gun owners.

 

And you're right, an arms race WON'T take care of it, that is my point!

[justamouse]

Terrifying. Truly.

 

I guess, IMO, if you're going to live in an area around bears, it makes more sense to understand bear behavior and learn the signs of a bear being nearby. Oh, and bear spray, if it comes down to an outright attack.

 

http://www.fws.gov/m.../bear spray.pdf

 

 

I laugh. I laugh. Bears have ripped off the doors to my shed. They have broken into houses, killed farm animals, and even severly injured children.

 

I live in NJ. The bears? Are having *triplets* Bear behavior is changing. They are getting aggressive.

 

Wait, let me get my bear spray is NOT going to work.

 

Knowing when a bear is near? I got to the point where my children WERE NOT ALLOWED OUTDOORS, even in the summer, at all. At All. Why? Bears would randomly walk through the yard at any time of day. Then I moved to the middle of town, and the first year here, a bear denned under my porch.

 

This just further proves my point that most people have this fictional idea of what it's like to own a gun..and live with bears. Don't even get me started on the mountain lions.

[Guest inoubliable]

Taking guns away won't do away with the violence either though. If evil people will do evil things whether they have guns or not, why is the focus on guns? Wouldn't the finances and energy be more useful in other area such as mental health, parent support type programs, and more research into some of these issues so that we would better know how to deal with the problems before they hit this point.

 

It might help if society as a whole gave up the whole "it's never my fault" attitude that people seem to have anymore.

 

Oh aye, I'm not in the camp of "guns are the only factor to consider!!" I think it's a multi-faceted issue. Mental health, better/more involved parenting, and a greater sense of community all come to mind as well.

[Dory]

 

 

Terrifying. Truly.

 

I guess, IMO, if you're going to live in an area around bears, it makes more sense to understand bear behavior and learn the signs of a bear being nearby. Oh, and bear spray, if it comes down to an outright attack.

 

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

 

LOL I have no desire to get close enough to a bear to use bear spray. We do teach our kids about bear behaviour. It's easier to live up here if you know how to mostly live with the wildlife around us instead if fighting it all the time. That being said, if a bear is taking a calf I'm not going to run out there with my bear spray. If a bear is tearing into one of the granaries in the yard, well a gun seems like a wiser choice. And if we're talking a cougar than a gun makes even more sense.

[justamouse]

I'm trying to picture another way to effectively deter a brown or grizzly bear. People are attacked here and Yellowstone has had four deaths from bear attacks in the last year or two.

 

You obviously don't know bear behavior and have spray...

 

 

I'm going to go get a cupcake.

[justLisa]

 

You obviously don't know bear behavior and have spray...

 

 

I'm going to go get a cupcake.

 

Here ya go

 

They are baked with extra fairy dust and my unicorn kissed them

 

[Guest inoubliable]

LOL I have no desire to get close enough to a bear to use bear spray. We do teach our kids about bear behaviour. It's easier to live up here if you know how to mostly live with the wildlife around us instead if fighting it all the time. That being said, if a bear is taking a calf I'm not going to run out there with my bear spray. If a bear is tearing into one of the granaries in the yard, well a gun seems like a wiser choice. And if we're talking a cougar than a gun makes even more sense.

 

LOL. I think we're envisioning two different scenarios. Where I live, we have black bears. They certainly aren't running off with a member of someone's herd or attacking anyone. I understand why firing a shot at a bear taking off with one of your animals or destroying your property makes sense. I was talking more about encountering a bear on a nature hike. Something like that. I live very close to the Blue Ridge Parkway. My cousin is a park ranger. They tell people to watch for signs of bear activity and they carry bear spray.

[stansclan89]

I just told my kids that someone on here is arguing that we don't need a gun to protect ourselves from bears because there is bear spray--they all bust up laughing. I asked what is the best defense against a bear. They said to trip your buddy. One of two men in MT that deals with all bear attacks came to talk to my then 14yo son's gun safety course (to be able to hunt). He said that he carries bear spray while hiking, but carries a .45 for when/if the bear spray doesn't work. This is for hiking, not for protecting your animals/property.

[Guest inoubliable]

I just told my kids that someone on here is arguing that we don't need a gun to protect ourselves from bears because there is bear spray--they all bust up laughing. I asked what is the best defense against a bear. They said to trip your buddy. One of two men in MT that deals with all bear attacks came to talk to my then 14yo son's gun safety course (to be able to hunt). He said that he carries bear spray while hiking, but carries a .45 for when/if the bear spray doesn't work. This is for hiking, not for protecting your animals/property.

 

Well my goodness! That makes me feel so ridiculous and idiotic! :rolleyes:

 

We must have been posting at the same time. I think you must not have seen my clarification.

[Dory]

 

 

LOL. I think we're envisioning two different scenarios. Where I live, we have black bears. They certainly aren't running off with a member of someone's herd or attacking anyone. I understand why firing a shot at a bear taking off with one of your animals or destroying your property makes sense. I was talking more about encountering a bear on a nature hike. Something like that. I live very close to the Blue Ridge Parkway. My cousin is a park ranger. They tell people to watch for signs of bear activity and they carry bear spray.

 

For those people who don't live with the wildlife all the time I can see just learning safety and carrying spray. I have friends who live in the city and hike a lot throughout the summer who do the same. For those of us that live near the wildlife all the time though, bear spray wouldn't have a hope of cutting it.

 

I was having a really good laugh though envisioning myself telling a bear to slow down so I could catch up to it with my bear spray.

[stansclan89]

I live very close to the Blue Ridge Parkway. My cousin is a park ranger. They tell people to watch for signs of bear activity and they carry bear spray.

 

The bears where you are are smaller than around Yellowstone. Every time I have been hiking in MT I have seen sign of bear. We do keep an eye out. Every time we camp, anything smelly (food, deodorant...) is hung in the air 20 feet off the ground, 20 feet between trees, and out of camp. There is always the possibility of seeing one. And we carry bear spray. And hopefully someone in the group has a handgun. We only have rifles (which we have with us if hunting, but not other wise).

[Guest inoubliable]

For those people who don't live with the wildlife all the time I can see just learning safety and carrying spray. I have friends who live in the city and hike a lot throughout the summer who do the same. For those of us that live near the wildlife all the time though, bear spray wouldn't have a hope of cutting it. I was having a really good laugh though envisioning myself telling a bear to slow down so I could catch up to it with my bear spray.

The bears where you are are smaller than around Yellowstone. Every time I have been hiking in MT I have seen sign of bear. We do keep an eye out. Every time we camp, anything smelly (food, deodorant...) is hung in the air 20 feet off the ground, 20 feet between trees, and out of camp. There is always the possibility of seeing one. And we carry bear spray. And hopefully someone in the group has a handgun. We only have rifles (which we have with us if hunting, but not other wise).

 

LOL. Peace, guys. Peace. I understand the wildlife argument. I really do. And I agree with you that in those instances, a firearm would make sense.

Honestly, I'm not out to be argumentative. It's after midnight and I'm only awake because the Sudafed is making me jittery and dizzy. Just thought I'd pop into an active thread and talk a few ideas out.

[justLisa]

LOL. Peace, guys. Peace. I understand the wildlife argument. I really do. And I agree with you that in those instances, a firearm would make sense.

Honestly, I'm not out to be argumentative. It's after midnight and I'm only awake because the Sudafed is making me jittery and dizzy. Just thought I'd pop into an active thread and talk a few ideas out.

 

 

I like your new status :lol:

 

We have bears. LOTS a bears

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

I like your new status :lol:

 

We have bears. LOTS a bears

 

LOTS of bears would suck, too. =P

 

Can I have a cupcake now, too? I am just tickled that I got to post in this thread before it got baconated. A cupcake would top off my evening!

[jewellsmommy]

OK, I'm not disagreeing with you, but here's a question--

 

Say a person has been on antidepressants. Are they automatically cut from the gun club? Only if they were on them for 6 months? Or, should you make it like antidepressants and mood stabilizers? See what I mean?

 

I'm asking honestly. Isn't this exactly why the ACLU fought so hard to deinstitutionalize asylums--that it took freedoms away? So then whose rights get cut to own a gun, how many years of mental health records are required to prove emotional stability for owning one? The HIPPA laws?

 

 

Another issue is that once you start putting restrictions on people that have a particular diagnosis, those that need the most help will shy away from seeking it for fear of the label.

 

I have known 3 individuals in the military who really needed to be on medication or at least seek therapy. They would not do it for fear of losing their security clearance. They certainly had access to the healthcare and free at that, but that did not make any difference. This is just something else to think about as we have these conversations.

[Joker]

I'm sure she doesn't see living a society that isn't plagued with terrible gun violence as a punishment. Perhaps she thinks people might come to like not feeling afraid all the time?

 

Look at what our friend Heather wrote after living outside the States for awhile, and how it completely changed her ideas about guns.

 

Bill

 

I wanted to address the bolded for a minute. Can we really compare no guns in Malaysia to no guns in the US? Aren't the punishments much harsher in Malaysia vs. the US? I'm not sure, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more of a deterrent in other countries for following the laws? Don't things take place in some of these places that the US would never allow? I'm not quite sure its completely fair to say that things are better in Malaysia because they don't allow guns and compare that to what would happen in the US if guns were not allowed.

[Mergath]

 

 

Another issue is that once you start putting restrictions on people that have a particular diagnosis, those that need the most help will shy away from seeking it for fear of the label.

 

I have known 3 individuals in the military who really needed to be on medication or at least seek therapy. They would not do it for fear of losing their security clearance. They certainly had access to the healthcare and free at that, but that did not make any difference. This is just something else to think about as we have these conversations.

 

 

I honestly hope we haven't reached such a fever of gun worship in this country that people would choose guns over needed medical care. If that's the case, we're all probably screwed no matter what we do.

[LizzyBee]

 

Terrifying. Truly.

 

I guess, IMO, if you're going to live in an area around bears, it makes more sense to understand bear behavior and learn the signs of a bear being nearby. Oh, and bear spray, if it comes down to an outright attack.

 

http://www.fws.gov/m.../bear spray.pdf

 

 

Your comments just keep getting more ridiculous. Terrifying is a bear banging on your windows and doors while you pray the glass holds up. Or walking into your house and finding a bear in your kitchen. Bear spray would not have stopped the rabid bear that ripped an air conditioner out of a window and started climbing in through the window. That family had to get rabies shots because of the blood spatter from the bear, but it could have been much worse if they hadn't their hunting guns. Not all bears have read the manuals on bear behavior.

[Incognito]

Having lived on both sides of the border, I personally think that a lot of the points touched on already are very true in regards to the difference in gun violence.

 

Primarily, I belive the issue of access is the biggest difference between countries. In Canada, I CANNOT legally go buy a handgun. I CANNOT go buy semi-automatic guns. I can buy hunting rifles. Yes, there are illegal guns.

 

As far as the drug culture - well, moving here I have seen and heard of so much more drug use and growth all around me than in the US. And penalties are just a slap on the wrist here - they are a cost of business, not a prison sentence. It's different. Very different.

 

Personally, I've run into a lot MORE overt prejudice here than I did when living in the US. I do not think prejudice is an issue in this.

 

And as far as Fox News (Bill), it has been a few years, but as I recall when they wanted to come to Canada they were at first denied access to the airwaves as a hate-propogating station. As I understand it, that has changed and now a person can get Fox News here. But I am not sure. A lot of people get US Satellites and get US stations in our area anyways.

 

As far as emigrating to Canada (WendyK), a few years ago it only took an ability to invest about $100k for 5 years to become a citizen. The amount has probably gone up, but it isn't THAT hard to become a Canadian if you really want to. If you have money to blow, that is.

 

Well, the world is ending, so I better go. ;)

[Melissa in Australia]

I wanted to address the bolded for a minute. Can we really compare no guns in Malaysia to no guns in the US? Aren't the punishments much harsher in Malaysia vs. the US? I'm not sure, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more of a deterrent in other countries for following the laws? Don't things take place in some of these places that the US would never allow? I'm not quite sure its completely fair to say that things are better in Malaysia because they don't allow guns and compare that to what would happen in the US if guns were not allowed.

She never said that nobody can own a gun in Malaysia, just there is tighter restrictions on having a gun.

 

Australia has got lighter punishment than USA. There is no adding sentence on sentence to get 100's of years in jail, there is no death penalty. They do have tighter restrictions on gun ownership though.

[Melissa in Australia]

Oh, and you can own handguns in Australia. I know someone who has some. You have to be a member of a handgun club. they have competitions etc.

[jelbe5]

 

 

I'm not making light of the fact that your grandfather went through what I'm sure was a very scary experience. However. Was the intruder armed? I seem to remember reading an article some time ago that said most intruders are breaking in to steal something. They're interested in getting in, taking whatever, and getting the heck out. In under three minutes, if possible. When I hear stories about intruders, my first thought is that they're probably not armed and they're just looking to grab the Wii or the laptop and then book it, KWIM? So, couldn't you lock yourself in a bedroom and call 911? If the intruder came to the door, yell out that you're armed. Yell out that you've called 911. I'm guessing that the chances are good that they're going to run off. If someone blocked my car and was being an ass, I'd call 911 on my cell phone. If I lived alone in the country and I was concerned about being able to physically defend myself (which seems an odd fear to me to begin with), I'd get a dog. And an alarm system.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there are alternatives to lock and load.

 

If someone is breaking into a home they are not coming in for a friendly visit and I doubt the terrified residents are going to ask if the intruder is armed or not. Yes, perhaps all the bad guy wants is stuff. But if residents are there or walk in on the situation, now there is a witness. The bad guy can be identified. An average-sized man can beat a woman or child or elderly person to death with bare hands in a few seconds. Yes, there may be other alternatives to using a gun, but sometimes the gun can make the difference between life and death to the law abiding citizen.

[Laura Corin]

That pretty much describes every country but the US. We even have a statue welcoming anyone and everyone. This country is kind of unique that way.

 

 

As someone who attempted to become a US citizen at one point, I can promise you that the US does not welcome anyone and everyone these days. I could hear someone in the next booth being rejected.

 

Laura

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Your comments just keep getting more ridiculous. Terrifying is a bear banging on your windows and doors while you pray the glass holds up. Or walking into your house and finding a bear in your kitchen. Bear spray would not have stopped the rabid bear that ripped an air conditioner out of a window and started climbing in through the window. That family had to get rabies shots because of the blood spatter from the bear, but it could have been much worse if they hadn't their hunting guns. Not all bears have read the manuals on bear behavior.

 

You came too late and missed it! :( In the almost 90 minutes between that post of mine and yours, a lot happened! Oh, it was heavy and uncool at first, I'll admit. But there were good times, too, for sure. Points were clarified, mental pictures of chasing down bears with spray were shared and laughed over, and I think we all agreed that bears could come in different sizes. And as the last verse of kumbaya faded away, and the rest of the bear spray was handed 'round, we all moved on to discuss mental health care and which types of guns you can own in Australia. I'm sorry you missed all the fun, though!

[Guest inoubliable]

If someone is breaking into a home they are not coming in for a friendly visit For sure! and I doubt the terrified residents are going to ask if the intruder is armed or not. I can't say that I would suggest that course of action. Yes, perhaps all the bad guy wants is stuff. But if residents are there or walk in on the situation, now there is a witness. The bad guy can be identified. You're right. An average-sized man can beat a woman or child or elderly person to death with bare hands in a few seconds.You're right. Yes, there may be other alternatives to using a gun, but sometimes the gun can make the difference between life and death to the law abiding citizen. I agree.

[Guest inoubliable]

As far as the drug culture - well, moving here I have seen and heard of so much more drug use and growth all around me than in the US. And penalties are just a slap on the wrist here - they are a cost of business, not a prison sentence. It's different. Very different.

 

 

I'm curious about the drug culture in Canada. Is there a big problem with the "harder" drugs - meth, heroin, cocaine - or is it primarily prescription drug abuse, or marijuana use? Is there much violence connected with drugs there? Honestly just curious.

[Guest inoubliable]

As someone who attempted to become a US citizen at one point, I can promise you that the US does not welcome anyone and everyone these days. I could hear someone in the next booth being rejected.

 

Laura

 

I once worked for a small company in D.C. and I had coworkers from the UK, Germany, and France. It took FOREVER for them to get processed and become citizens. Years. And they all had stories of people that they knew who either hadn't made it and were sent packing or who just gave up and went back to their country of origin. I can't imagine that it's easy to become a U.S. citizen.

[Laura Corin]

 

I once worked for a small company in D.C. and I had coworkers from the UK, Germany, and France. It took FOREVER for them to get processed and become citizens. Years. And they all had stories of people that they knew who either hadn't made it and were sent packing or who just gave up and went back to their country of origin. I can't imagine that it's easy to become a U.S. citizen.

 

Yes, and as far as welcoming 'everyone': I was given a temporary Green Card (because I was married to a US citizen) with little fuss. I was told by the officer who approved my application that this was because I already had 'A perfectly good passport'. Unlike, presumably, the person being rejected in the next booth.

 

Laura

[swellmomma]

 

I'm curious about the drug culture in Canada. Is there a big problem with the "harder" drugs - meth, heroin, cocaine - or is it primarily prescription drug abuse, or marijuana use? Is there much violence connected with drugs there? Honestly just curious.

 

Heroin I have not heard a lot of use of but it's there. Cocaine for sure, that is what my uncle was on. Meth yup. Weed and pills most common with the young people, followed my E, shrooms, acid and hash (based on what was being sold in my high school and in our old neighborhood in the city). I am not sure what the gang that moved onto my street was into, but the neighbor boy and his friends were mostly into weed and pills, if they were going to take something stronger they let me know incase someone OD'd so I could tell the paramedics what they were on. In the spanish complex across the street from me there, hash was the main drug.

 

In this tiny town, it has been mostly weed and a bit of coke. My uncle is a recovered coke addict, he did pretty much everything other than heroin but he was primarily a coke head. He used to be a sound guy in the music industry, and got into it with that so different subculture than the average person.

 

There is violence connected with the drugs, but seems to be moreso in the bigger cities, and even then it is limited. Most people know who is on drugs, who is selling what etc but unless it is bringing trouble to the neighborhood tend to turn a blind eye to it. In turn those on the drugs keep their noses otherwise clean to avoid having the cops on their door. The meth heads are a whole different situation. In my old city most of them ended up in the inner city homeless and that is a whole different situation. The ones I knew were the functional addicts/recreational users kwim.

 

Even the gang stuff is different. Yes there is gang violence but there is not generally drive bys and such. We were happy to leave our old neighborhood, the gang wanted my oldest son. But before they wanted him they looked out for our family. It's funny actually looking back, because gangs are generally no good etc, but they kept us safe after we were targeted by someone else. No one was shot etc but we were left alone. There was also a boundary of sorts around my home that they could not deal in(same with neighbor boy and his friends), users had to let me know what they were using and they could not do so where my kids could see them.

 

Despite the drugs and gang etc we still managed to live as neighbors peacefully. Now bad stuff still happened in the neighborhood. A middle aged man killed his father and set the house on fire to hide the body(not a shooting death that I recall though). There was a raid on a house a few doors down shortly after we moved in for guns and drugs. We had all those drugs, arsons, breakins etc on the street from time to time, but that raid became the talk of the street becuase it involved guns and that is unheard of kwim. Bust a grow up and no one bats and eye, raid a home filled with guns and you become the gossip for the next year or more.

[Rosie_0801]

 

I'm definitely not speaking for the U.S. or a world society in general, but what I've noticed around here is almost the opposite. That we, as a society, are supposed to be obliging because Little Johnny and Little Susie are just not getting a fair shake. And to point out that LJ and LS are in the wrong at all is intolerant of their "issues". I know so many parents here who LOVE to fall back on whatever is the cool/popular/new diagnosis of the moment to explain why their kid is a serious little puke with bad manners and no sense of personal responsibility.

 

Kind of like two sides to the same coin, isn't it?

[Heather in Neverland]

.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the more the public carries, the lesser the crime. I know everyone keeps saying it ain't so, but that doesn't make the facts change.

 

 

 

That is actually not true. Malaysia has far less crime and very, very few citizens with guns.

[Heather in Neverland]

Double post

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

I wanted to address the bolded for a minute. Can we really compare no guns in Malaysia to no guns in the US? Aren't the punishments much harsher in Malaysia vs. the US? I'm not sure, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there more of a deterrent in other countries for following the laws? Don't things take place in some of these places that the US would never allow? I'm not quite sure its completely fair to say that things are better in Malaysia because they don't allow guns and compare that to what would happen in the US if guns were not allowed.

 

The punishment in Malaysia for owning a gun illegally is up to 7 years in jail and fine of about $3500 USD.

 

 

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

As someone who attempted to become a US citizen at one point, I can promise you that the US does not welcome anyone and everyone these days. I could hear someone in the next booth being rejected.

 

Laura

 

Sheesh, isn't that the truth. As an American citizen, it took us two years to get an immigrant visa for our own daughter!

[Hannah]

Yes, and as far as welcoming 'everyone': I was given a temporary Green Card (because I was married to a US citizen) with little fuss. I was told by the officer who approved my application that this was because I already had 'A perfectly good passport'. Unlike, presumably, the person being rejected in the next booth.

 

Laura

 

Many of our friends, family and collegues have emigrated from South Africa, but only one family has been able to move to the USA without being transferred by a local company (and that company getting them the work permits, etc). That was after winning a green card lottery . Then they still had had to prove that they could financially support themselves for a period (can't remember how long it was, but I do remember them having to borrow money from parents and having to keep it in their account for a number of months to prove that they had the funds).

 

It was easier for people to get into Australia and Canada on skills points (the people we know are engineers, scientists and in the medical profession), but the numbers being accepted are also reducing.

It is also difficult to emigrate to the UK.

[Pawz4me]

So, you punish the law abiding citizens?

 

As a non-gun owning law abiding citizen, I feel "punished" all the time by having to wonder which neighbors around me probably own guns, and which people walking past me in WalMart or at the park may be carrying.

 

In a society such as ours every law abiding citizen could claim to suffer from some kind of "punishment." Such is the price of admission.

 

I don't pretend to know what the answers for gun violence are. But I do believe it's "answers" (plural). As in we need a multi-faceted approach. And I think better regulation of gun ownership has to be part of that.

 

When my kids get their driver's licenses they have to attend a class taught by a certified instructor, do in-car training for a certain number of hours with a certified instructor, pass a written test to get a permit, drive under adult supervision for a year and maintain a log of hours and miles driven. Then they have to pass a driving test before they're allowed a limited driver's license for six months. If they drive for six months w/o a violation, only then are they allowed a full-fledged license. I don't see any reason the laws for gun ownership shouldn't be every bit as stringent as those for obtaining a driver's license.

[asta]

You ban private ownership of all guns with very few exceptions which require long and annoying background checks, character references, suitably long waiting period, licensing examinations which include sections on gun storage, gun safety and separation of ammo from weapons, and annual licensing renewals demonstrating that the license holder has held to these conditions. Limit the number of guns that can be owned within a household to three, each of which must be registered and licensed. No assault weapons. No detachable cartridges. And limits on the amount of ammo that can be stored at any one time.

 

Make it hard. You want to own a gun? Fine. But it's not going to be easy. At. All. And you have to prove that you are a responsible, careful, cautious person. Serious pain in the neck for all the law-abiding gun owners out there? You bet. But you know what? If it prevents one more child's death, then deal with it.

 

Seriously.

 

The Weimar Republic did this in 1928. It was an easing of a previous, much stricter law that banned all weaponry (and included confiscation) that had occurred in 1919 following WWI.

 

In 1938, the year that the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei first introduced any of their laws, legislation was enacted based on the Weimar's pre-existing laws and utilizing the pre-existing records of gun/weapon ownership to unarm the Jews and anyone else they viewed as "untrustworthy".

 

 

See as a Canadian I don't get why being gun happy it good... Why not be hockey happy, or Timmie's happy...mmm Timmie's...why guns?

 

I get some people collect them, they do that here too, but the rules about storage and registration apply. Some people hunt, again registration, regulations about the types of guns used etc. I don't know of anyone that has a concealled carry permit, heck half the time the cops don't have real guns on them, they have taser guns, or rubber bullet guns. Yes bad guys still get guns, legistlation does not completely eliminate that, but it does get rid of almost all crimes where guns were used as a weapon of opportunity. If you do not have a gun with you, even if you want to shoot someone in the moment the worst you end up doing is maybe swinging a punch or throwing something, mostly you flip them the bird and swear at them. Kids do not have easy access to guns so accidental childhoos shootings are rare, and children are not bringing guns to school.

 

Mental health services are not stellar here, trust me I have been dealing with the system for years for ds BUT we do have access to free therapy and assessments. For most that is enough, it is harder with children with mood disorders as then you need a private clinic blah blah blah. It is not without it's faults, but at least we can access help for mental health services without much trouble. WHen I have called to the place we can go for free closest to me, I have never had to wait more than a day to be seen, if it was a crisis situation the ER will detain theperson for assessment for 24 hours, giving time to get the person safe. You can call the police or EMTs to take the person for that if necessary.

 

Keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and getting them services instead is a huge one.

 

No system is perfect, no country has it exact. It is easy as an outsider to look at another country and say "you are doing it wrong...do it our way!" after all isn't that what the US does all the time?

 

It is just hard when time and time again we see this kind of violence play out and nothing changes! Locking down schools and punishing the innocent children is not the answer, removing the opportunity to access the weapons generally used in these sorts of attacks is. What are you supposed to do lock down a whole country? Because these shootings are not just as schools. So now all public buildings must me locked down incase a madman brings a gun? Why not just take away the access to the guns so that the innocents can live their lives without fear.

 

That is where Canadians and Americans differ. Canadians say what about everyone else, what about their right to live a peaceful life! Americans say what about me, what about my right to own guns?

 

As I said above, this was done successfully (taking away access to guns & weapons) in the 1930s in Europe. It didn't turn out so well for the 'innocents'.

 

 

Wouldn't it make more sense then that people with those problems be flagged in some way so that buying a firearm wasn't an option for them?

 

Definitely.

 

We can make them have an identifying stamp on their identification card or something. Maybe a small tattoo or microchip - like how we I.D. pets to make sure they don't get stolen or lost.

 

 

Not being an a$$ here, but I really don't understand how making guns harder to obtain punishes law abiding citizens. No one has explained to me why they think this. My thinking is that if you make it harder to obtain a gun, and I'm not talking about making it cost prohibitive, then you make a potential gun owner *really* think about that purchase. Really think about where they're going to store that gun and the ammo, really think hard about that purchase at the gun show instead of making an impulse buy, really pay attention to their state's laws if they're going to be tested for their permit.

 

I know it's not the same thing, but it sounds similar IMO to the requirements in place at animal shelters. Hear me out on this. Around here, at least, if you want to adopt a cat or a dog, you have to show proof that you own your own home or that your rental lease allows you to have pets. The shelter staff will call your landlord to confirm that. You have to listen to a 10 - 15 minute talk on the particular pet you're looking at. They tell you what they've observed about that specific animal and what/if they were told anything by previous owners. They talk to you about veterinary care, sometimes breed-specific. They give you pamphlets on medical insurance for your pet and answer questions about it. They go over the spay/neuter requirement and why it's important. They tell you about any dietary issues that animal has (that they know of). They require you to spend a little time, in staff presence, with the animal. And they don't usually give you the okay that day, so that you have time to think it through and make sure that this is what you want to do. I can see some animal lovers who really want to add a furbaby to their family and really knows their stuff about cats/dogs being a bit annoyed at the time spent at the shelter, but I also think that if you're truly committed to adding a furbaby to your family that you'll see the value in the process and understand that the process is in place to make sure that the best matches are made between pet and pet owner. Would not a more involved process of owning a gun weed out some people who maybe shouldn't be owning a firearm and wouldn't people who have guns as a necessity or hobby see the value in that?

 

And the animals that aren't adopted?

 

They are euthanized.

 

Hmmm.

 

 

Which brings us back to something I posted at the start of this thread about the differences between to the 2 societies. Most in Canada think in terms of the greater good, how to make things better for the other people walking around. Many Americans think in terms of the personal good, if not easier/better etc for the individual it is seen as a punishment even when it is for the greater good.

 

The former was a very popular concept in Europe during the late 1930s early 1940s. It was that "we, the majority, can have full employment, food and health care if we just go along to get along and do what the government says" that got millions of other folks killed in camps and gulags. It took a whole bunch of people with the idea that every individual had worth, beyond the "greater good" to stop the horror that was occurring.

 

 

a

[asta]

No, but to be fair they do obtain these guns and use them (from the US probably).

 

I would suggest you watch a movie called Lord of War

 

because this:

 

 

Well, you have your socially sanctioned wacko-ism, like in Afghanistan, or drug rings like in Mexico, perhaps. I was thinking more of the individual mentally ill person in say, the back jungle of Cambodia, who cannot afford to buy a weapon to go blow away half his village.

 

is not quite reality, but this:

 

 

I think you are underestimating the number of desperately poor counties that are awash with full-automatic weapons like AK-47s and how much damage results.

 

Bill

 

Is.

 

 

a

[asta]

That can't be the only difference. Mass killers are disturbed loner types. Maybe America has more of these and is a more disconnected, uncaring society?

 

Maybe the parenting is different?

 

Gun ownership is very high in Israel and some parts of Europe, yet they do not have the same level of mass killings. Maybe society is better connected. I think it has something to do with how we separate and segregate the family as early as possible and as much as possible at every level of society, but that's just a theory.

 

I completely agree.

 

 

I don't know the statistics, but I doubt most gun crimes are committed by the mentally ill. Gang-related shootings, armed robbery, and domestic violence have to be far more common than random murders. When you combine those things with gun access, you get the high gun crime.

 

I do think Americans are desensitized to the gun violence. There were two cases locally where the father murdered the wife and children. One was a shooting, the other the family was strangled with straw bale ties. The strangulation case received way more media attention than the shooting. And when you have 150 homicides a year in one city, and 120 of them are 2:00AM shootings in "bad neighborhoods", the news stops reporting those beyond a blurb in the police blotter.

 

That would be correct.

 

Statistics show that a mentally ill person is more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than commit one. I wrote an entire post on this.

 

 

Again, I wasn't referring to group-think mental illness or situations like the Rwandan genocide. I was thinking of lone mentally ill people like the kid in CT.

 

There actually has not been a determination of a mental illness in that man. Something wrong with his mental state or a mental disorder, yes. There is a difference.

 

Mental disorders may encompass things going wrong from genetic problems, brain abnormalities due to various causes (physical illness, injury, etc.).

 

As far as a mental state, there are people in the world who are entirely sane but simply. don't. care. They have taken a look around, seen how they are treated by society, and figure society isn't worth it. TammyS (quoted below) referred to them as "evil". Whether a person is religious or not, that is about the best word the English language has for them.

 

I think this kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. Once we decide (as has been done in the past) that certain races are susceptible to certain things (mental, physical, otherwise) we are on the short path horrible things (slavery, genocide, etc).

 

I'm also not at all sure that these people have all had "psychotic breaks". Seems to me a modern phenom to want to attribute everything to mental illness. We like to ignore that there is such a thing as evil and that some people choose it.

 

In that vein, here is a great little article written by a medical historian on the very subject.

 

 

a

[asta]

Which does lead to the question of what mental health care is like in third world countries? Are they locked up? Or is it easier for family to step out of society and care for that individual due to the makeup of the country?

 

There is so much pressure in our society to be a part of the community, to be productive and doing something that is recognized by others as productive. Look at the grief some of us get because we decide to be SAHMs, then the grief we get for removing our children from the school society. For some of us we homeschool as one of the options, for others homeschooling is the only real option for various reasons.

 

As much freedom as we Americans sound off about, I think we are more judgmental about those that don't fit into our perceived cultural norms (noting there are many regional cultural norms throughout America). Is the acceptance of the individual better in other countries?

 

 

Usually put out on the street or killed outright by either your family or your community; recognize that most MI doesn't "present' until after puberty.

 

Mental illness is still viewed as "possession by the devil" in many 3rd world nations.

 

Asylums are few, far between, and on the level of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

 

 

Second world countries are much better by comparison. Especially if you have a job. They have access to medications, albeit usually only "old" ones such as Lithium (still the best med out there for most conditions though, so don't knock it...), Haldol, Thorazine (those are antipsychotics), and Phenobarbital for seizures. The side effects of most of them suck, so it is hard for docs to maintain compliance amongst their patients. Even if their patients had things like reliable transportation, money to buy the pills, etc. Also, there is such a HUGE stigma (heck there is a huge stigma in the first world - we're seeing it right now - it's like that scene out of Monty Python, "she's a witch - burn her!"), that most people, if they can at all 'get by', won't seek treatment.

 

 

a

[asta]

 

I'm curious about the drug culture in Canada. Is there a big problem with the "harder" drugs - meth, heroin, cocaine - or is it primarily prescription drug abuse, or marijuana use? Is there much violence connected with drugs there? Honestly just curious.

 

It is a major route for drugs coming in from the middle east due to its large immigrant population. The drugs don't necessarily stop there - it is a pipeline.

 

 

a

[asta]

I only know one person who owns a gun.

 

I do know several people who own paint ball guns. Even my parents who live in a 50 acre woods don't own one. They had a bear come up to the living room window one night. They still fell fine without.

 

My Dad does have a paint ball gun which he uses to shoot at the local wildlife who tries to mess around with his stuff. (ie. get into compost bin, try to move into space under hot tub...)

 

We also had lots of conversations about guns a year or so ago when a family friend was visiting from Germany. Germany has very strict gun rules. If I remember correctly (And what he told me was correct) you can't even own a paint ball gun.

 

They have paintball all over Europe. Even in Germany. The weapons are enormously expensive and look pretty much just like those that take traditional ammunition.

 

 

a

[asta]

 

 

Another issue is that once you start putting restrictions on people that have a particular diagnosis, those that need the most help will shy away from seeking it for fear of the label.

 

I have known 3 individuals in the military who really needed to be on medication or at least seek therapy. They would not do it for fear of losing their security clearance. They certainly had access to the healthcare and free at that, but that did not make any difference. This is just something else to think about as we have these conversations.

 

It does not work that way any longer. They are mis-informed.

 

 

a