Was Columbine the start of all of this?

[Vera]

This issue seems crystal clear to me so we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for giving me something to do for a little while though. Being completely useless is the worst part. I was hoping to go help keep the Westboro Baptist Church idiots away but the darned people never showed up.

 

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

 

 

I hope I did that right. That is my town where the people are friendly and tolerant. Where people don't lock their doors and neighbors are always available to help you out.

[swellmomma]

This issue seems crystal clear to me so we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for giving me something to do for a little while though. Being completely useless is the worst part. I was hoping to go help keep the Westboro Baptist Church idiots away but the darned people never showed up.

 

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

 

.

 

 

I think in each case the media circus varies. In this case due to the severity, the long term implications to mental health services, and the ages of the victims I think it will go on longer than many of the other situations.

 

I knew there had been a school shooting in my province years ago and the media was around for a long time. I looked it up. It was in a Taber school apr 28,99, it was deemed a copycat shooting of columbine. In that case it only involved 1 death and 1 injury and was the first fatal school shooting in Canada in 2 decades. The media was around for a long time as a result of that, it was something that we were not used to seeing happen in our country. That was something that only happened in that country south of us etc. And because it was deemed to be a copycat shooting that was really pushed kwim.

 

We do not have stellar mental health services, what we do have is gun control. It is simply not easy to have access to a gun here. Yes criminals still get them. Yes crimes involving them still happen. But we do not have school shootings like there seems to be in the states. There have been some horrible ones in Canada in the past but it is a very rare thing to happen.

 

That feeling of helplessness is horrible. There is nothing to do to help anyone at this point, other than praying with and for them. Nothing will make it better, you can't stop the pain or bring back the loved ones that are now gone. The community will hurt for a very long time. Each Christmas season that wound will be reopened with the memorials and vigils that will happen. BUT the community will also become stronger. Those families are now in a club that no parent ever wants to be in. And they have each other to lean on through it. The community will rally behind and support them as they grieve. Finding ways to make their deaths mean something will be likely the only way to really deal with the helpless feeling. Lobbying for change in gun laws and mental health services, promoting healthy mental health through workshops, family days, finding psychs that will offer a few free sessions to anyone who needs someone to talk to, memorial picnics, and pretty much anything to tie the community to something positive. Being sure to be the ear and shoulder for any of those parents/siblings/grandparents etc. They will have a lot of support for a while from each other, from the community and from people around the globe that have heard of this. But what about in 6 months, 8? 10? They will still be reeling, birthdays will come and go, family vacations etc, and they will need to know without a doubt that the community is still there for them and has not forgotten their loss.

[Elizabeth in MN]

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

 

Generally it takes another big event. However, you have Christmas on your side. I expect that the media will be in town until Christmas Eve,, then most will go home to their families. They should all be gone by New Years, though they will come back on anniversaries.

[Hannah]

The only way that this could have been prevented was if he hadn't had access to guns. I don't want to start an argument but my son's friend buried her little brother yesterday, I passed three funerals today in my limited time out and I will be going to my kids' music teacher's son's funeral tomorrow. Everyone that I know is burying someone that they loved this week and I don't want anyone else to have to deal with something like this.

 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I don't know that we are allowed to talk about gun control, and I didn't mean for this thread to turn into that. If we are allowed to post about it, here is an article related that makes a lot of good points... I understand if this needs to be removed. http://www.nytimes.c...ef=general&_r=0

 

As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.â€

 

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

 

I'm sorry if I am breaking any rules, I have not seen any specific guidelines about guns so I'm not sure. But again, I didn't start this thread to talk about guns.

 

 

I've been wondering why everyone is so quiet about guns. Is it so political that we'd be breaking the rules to talk about it? Isn't mental health care also political? I'm not American, so I may not get the subtleties.

I know it is a first amendment right to carry a gun, but should this extend to military weapons that allow a crazy person to kill multiple people in seconds without even properly aiming?

 

People will break laws and access guns if they really want to, but it seems that they don't even have to break any laws to get lethal weapons as they are so so easily accessible. I could see why someone could argue the need for a handgun or a rifle, but a military weapon (and multiple weapons) in a private home in a safe area? Why?

 

 

The "big picture" is not mental health care alone. The "big picture" includes addressing the easy access to devasting weaponry and the devastating weaponry itself.

 

I find it abhorrent to attempt to divert all attention to mental health alone while sweeping under the rug the role that firearms play in every. single. one. of these cases.

 

 

:iagree:

[Hannah]

double post

[Shamzanne]

There was a shooting at my high school a year before Columbine. Thurston High School in Springfield, Oregon. Kip Kinkel, 15, shot and killed his parents, slept all night in the house with their dead bodies, then drove to school and killed 2 students and injured 25. He is in prison for life. He was unlike other shooters in many ways. He was a popular kid and on the football team. He was actually a friend of my sister. He was suspended the day before for having a gun at school.

 

It is believed that he would have killed himself if he was able, but six of my schoolmates tackled him and held him down until police arrived. They had all been boyscouts and heard the click when his cartridge was empty and knew it was their chance to take him down. He shot one of them with a pistol he had in his belt. He begged them to kill him. He had enough ammunition with him to kill every person in my school (1500 people) twice. I was a Junior then and not even in the cafeteria when it happened but every time another school shooting occurs it brings back the terror.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

 

 

I've been wondering why everyone is so quiet about guns. Is it so political that we'd be breaking the rules to talk about it? Isn't mental health care also political? I'm not American, so I may not get the subtleties.

I know it is a first amendment right to carry a gun, but should this extend to military weapons that allow a crazy person to kill multiple people in seconds without even properly aiming?

 

People will break laws and access guns if they really want to, but it seems that they don't even have to break any laws to get lethal weapons as they are so so easily accessible. I could see why someone could argue the need for a handgun or a rifle, but a military weapon (and multiple weapons) in a private home in a safe area? Why?

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

There are some things in the American culture that me as an outside observer just cannot fathom.

[Parrothead]

I could see why someone could argue the need for a handgun or a rifle, but a military weapon (and multiple weapons) in a private home in a safe area? Why?

 

Personally, I've never had an answer for that question. I've always been around guns. My whole family is either law enforcement or military so firearms were always around. Dh hunts. I've never understood the appeal of privately owned assault rifles and the like.

 

Some people collect, and I suppose that is okay. But for actual use either in hunting or defense, well, one can't shoot more than two at a time.

 

But why firearms are accessible to kids is beyond me. How many in that Wiki list of mass murders were kids/teens out for revenge for one reason or another.

 

I firmly believe that if there are firearms in the house they need to be under lock and key and the key needs to be secured. it would be better if they were combination locked and the code memorized. I suppose that is too much trouble for a lot of people though.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I firmly believe that if there are firearms in the house they need to be under lock and key and the key needs to be secured. it would be better if they were combination locked and the code memorized. I suppose that is too much trouble for a lot of people though.

 

Okay, say you did this. At what age would you tell your offspring where the key is or what the combination is? Would you assume that by voting age someone is mature enough to not go on a shooting rampage at their former elementary?

 

If there is a gun in your home you have a 43% more likely to die by gun violence (I'm trying to find the poll that backs this up).

 

As for those outside of the US trying to understand, let me try and explain the importance of guns in US culture. Back before the American Revolution England tried to limit weapons in all colonies, and back in the UK too from what I remember. Americans are generally taught that the gun limit/suppression was an attempt to prevent any overthrow of the government. When the American Revolution came about people had secret stores of weapons that helped with the fight for freedom. I don't kow if this is true, but this is what I was taught in public school. So because of the gun suppression by the English government there was a back-lash of gun ownership, and over reaction as it were. I think, generally speaking, that the newly freed Americans thought it best for every male of a certain age have a gun. A fair amount of this had to do with how large and spread out the US is. Help might be your neighbors not a local police officer who was a good four hour hard ride away. Then there was the issue of all the frontiers. Not only were the new Americans dealing with native peoples who could be friendly one day but not the next, there were other Old World people that may or may not be at war with you and also was trying to grab land. So we have all these issues of safety in the back of our minds. About the same time the the US Constitution was drafted. It's taken me decades to realize that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are viewed as holy documents to many Americans. I mean, I knew they were important but they are right on up there with the Bible to a lot of folks. So the second addition to this holy document was the right to have a gun as part of the defense of the US. To many it's like... a mandate from G-d to have a gun. Folded into all this is the general US view that more and bigger is better and you have a good look at gun culture as it is in the US. This is a vast simplification of a huge and complex issue and mentality written at 2:30 in the morning. Hopefully it helps some, though.

[Melissa in Australia]

Okay, say you did this. At what age would you tell your offspring where the key is or what the combination is? Would you assume that by voting age someone is mature enough to not go on a shooting rampage at their former elementary?

 

If there is a gun in your home you have a 43% more likely to die by gun violence (I'm trying to find the poll that backs this up).

 

As for those outside of the US trying to understand, let me try and explain the importance of guns in US culture. Back before the American Revolution England tried to limit weapons in all colonies, and back in the UK too from what I remember. Americans are generally taught that the gun limit/suppression was an attempt to prevent any overthrow of the government. When the American Revolution came about people had secret stores of weapons that helped with the fight for freedom. I don't kow if this is true, but this is what I was taught in public school. So because of the gun suppression by the English government there was a back-lash of gun ownership, and over reaction as it were. I think, generally speaking, that the newly freed Americans thought it best for every male of a certain age have a gun. A fair amount of this had to do with how large and spread out the US is. Help might be your neighbors not a local police officer who was a good four hour hard ride away. Then there was the issue of all the frontiers. Not only were the new Americans dealing with native peoples who could be friendly one day but not the next, there were other Old World people that may or may not be at war with you and also was trying to grab land. So we have all these issues of safety in the back of our minds. About the same time the the US Constitution was drafted. It's taken me decades to realize that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are viewed as holy documents to many Americans. I mean, I knew they were important but they are right on up there with the Bible to a lot of folks. So the second addition to this holy document was the right to have a gun as part of the defense of the US. To many it's like... a mandate from G-d to have a gun. Folded into all this is the general US view that more and bigger is better and you have a good look at gun culture as it is in the US. This is a vast simplification of a huge and complex issue and mentality written at 2:30 in the morning. Hopefully it helps some, though.

 

 

I get all this.

But I cannot comprehend the need to have automatic military style weapons. To me it seems like some Americans use what you wrote above as an excuse to have these weapons whose only design was to be used in a war type setting to kill people.

[Shawna in Texas]

Personally, I've never had an answer for that question. I've always been around guns. My whole family is either law enforcement or military so firearms were always around. Dh hunts. I've never understood the appeal of privately owned assault rifles and the like.

 

Some people collect, and I suppose that is okay. But for actual use either in hunting or defense, well, one can't shoot more than two at a time.

 

But why firearms are accessible to kids is beyond me. How many in that Wiki list of mass murders were kids/teens out for revenge for one reason or another.

 

I firmly believe that if there are firearms in the house they need to be under lock and key and the key needs to be secured. it would be better if they were combination locked and the code memorized. I suppose that is too much trouble for a lot of people though.

 

 

DH has been pretty much watching the news non-stop for the last few days. I'm cooking dinner and I hear him laugh in a way that honestly scared me a bit. He screamed out, "They need those types of weapons to hunt squirrels! Squirrels!" I'll have to ask him tomorrow about the clip.

 

Honestly if you need a weapon of that caliber to kill a squirrel, they've won. Eat something else.

[meggie]

This issue seems crystal clear to me so we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for giving me something to do for a little while though. Being completely useless is the worst part. I was hoping to go help keep the Westboro Baptist Church idiots away but the darned people never showed up.

 

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

 

 

I hope I did that right. That is my town where the people are friendly and tolerant. Where people don't lock their doors and neighbors are always available to help you out.

 

 

I am from Littleton. I was a freshman at Columbine's rival high school when it happened. I remember the media frenzy. I remember every single instance of that day, the fear, the shock, the panic, the rumors ("they'll come here next!")

 

Columbine came to my high school to finish out their year. About a month. I think the media frenzy died out sometime in there. I honestly don't remember much about the media after the first day Columbine came to us. They were kept off school grounds but were waiting as we walked home.

 

And I totally feel your pain. It was like being in a dream: "This can't be happening here. Littleton is too nice of a place. Everyone is so nice to each other. Everyone gets along so well." And yet I still want people to remember. That fake Morgan Freeman quote about how no one remembers the victims' names? BS. Absolute BS. I don't remember *all* the names, but I do remember several. And the ones I don't remember their names, they are still remembered and still missed. Our community came together immediately after. The love and support we felt from everyone across the nation was humbling. To realize that people out there cared that we were so shocked, to realize that our friends had been through so much.

 

It started ripping apart once the blame game started. Blaming the teachers, the parents, the guns, the police, suing the school. That sense of super community didn't last long, at least not for me.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

That statement doesn't seem to be supported by the facts. After the Dunblane school massacre in 1996, the UK effectively outlawed private ownership of handguns. They haven't had another school shooting since, and only one other mass murder in 18 years.

 

Australia had 11 mass murders in the decade leading up to the Port Arthur Massacre, also in 1996. Massive gun control laws were instituted immediately following Port Arthur. They haven't had a single mass murder since. And although people still kill each other in Australia, when the murder rate by gun went down, the murder rate by other methods didn't rise. It just lowered the murder rate overall.

 

It is just not the case that disturbed and angry people will always find another way. Unless you're positing that disturbed and angry Americans are just more resourceful than the disturbed and angry people they have in countries with strict gun control. No. It's the guns. It's the lack of mental health care and the guns. It's the sick macho culture and the guns. It's the economic alienation and the guns. It's the guns.

 

Gosh I can't believe I am about to post about this but, here goes...

 

As many of you know, I am a conservative, über-republican, Jesus freak. I come from a family of avid hunters. My parents and my brothers own guns. My ds was a competitive sharp-shooter before we moved. My family is backwoods Alabama for goodness sake and I grew up in Detroit. Guns are just a normal part of life in my world.

 

But something has happened to me while living here.

 

All guns... even BB guns, pellet guns, etc.... are illegal to own without a license which is pretty much impossible to get. And after being here almost 4 years I've discovered that...well... I really prefer it that way.

 

Ok, here is where Ted Nugent bungee-jumps in and yanks my NRA card.

 

Guns are such a part of American DNA that I am not sure we can even think rationally about it any more. It was only removing myself from gun culture for a while, and seeing how non-gun cultures live, that I was able to really think about the other side of the argument more clearly.

 

According to statistics, Malaysia has 370,000 total guns owned by civilians or 1.5 guns for every 100 people. In America there are estimated to be 270,000,000 guns or a rate of nearly 90 guns per 100 people.

 

The number of gun homicides in Malaysia is around 50 people per year. In America there are more than 9000 gun deaths per year.

 

It is nearly impossible to own a gun legally here. The restrictions on it are heavy to say the least. In America you can buy one at Walmart.

 

Malaysia is number 20 on the Global Peace Index out of 158 countries. America is 88.

 

I feel myself drifting to the dark side... I have never typed these words before: I am no longer in favor of gun ownership. I promise I am still just as republican as I ever was but I just can't understand the gun obsession any more. I prefer life without them.

 

The whole argument about if regular people don't own guns then only the criminals will have them just doesn't hold water here or in a lot of other countries. I'm not really against hunting or collecting, etc. But one for every person? I think we can see how well that's going.

 

Ok, I'm going to go hide from my American friends now.

[asta]

Bill Whittle (feel free to look him up) said a very salient thing a while ago: Americans (and those judging them, I suppose), need to stop looking at the US Founding Fathers as a bunch of old guys in tri-cornered hats, funny clothing, holding muskets. Who they were was a group of men of different backgrounds, wearing the finest clothing available at the time, holding the most advanced weaponry available at the time. Were these men to be standing for a portrait today, they would be wearing (essentially) Kevlar inter-woven, Italian tailored, handmade suits and holding a SIG 550.

 

I think that many Americans (US) (and non-Americans) consistently misunderstand the 2nd amendment to our constitution. It was not written to enable US citizens to own firearms for the right to hunt - it was written to enable them to have the ability, should it be needed, to overthrow a tyrannical government. That is not possible if there is 1. an unarmed citizenry or 2. the citizenry is not allowed to have the same firearms as the government. Certainly one can argue that the citizenry does not have tanks, missile launchers, drones, etc. - but people are pretty creative if their backs are up against the wall and their freedom is at stake.

 

After all, the US came into being after a rag tag group of dissidents defeated the greatest military in the world.

 

 

a

[kroe1]

I was shocked to google "school shootings" and then find out they have been occurring in our country since the 1700's. They seem to come in waves. I always thought it was a more recent phenomenon.

[Laura Corin]

That is not possible if there is 1. an unarmed citizenry or 2. the citizenry is not allowed to have the same firearms as the government. Certainly one can argue that the citizenry does not have tanks, missile launchers, drones, etc. - but people are pretty creative if their backs are up against the wall and their freedom is at stake.

 

After all, the US came into being after a rag tag group of dissidents defeated the greatest military in the world.

 

 

a

 

Arguing from your point of view for a second: events in more than one country in the Middle East have shown that light weaponry plus defections from the army can produce an effective guerrilla force in a modern day conflict.

 

As an outsider, it's hard for me to really appreciate the inflexibility that having a written constitution gives to a country's structure. That inflexibility may be a virtue or it may not, but it is so totally alien to the way that non-written-constitutional countries run that I am often just left in frustration and alarm.

 

Laura

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

A fair amount of this had to do with how large and spread out the US is. Help might be your neighbors not a local police officer who was a good four hour hard ride away. Then there was the issue of all the frontiers. Not only were the new Americans dealing with native peoples who could be friendly one day but not the next, there were other Old World people that may or may not be at war with you and also was trying to grab land. So we have all these issues of safety in the back of our minds.

Canada had the same issues, regarding frontier life. And yes, guns were aplenty back then. Canada was also able to gain independance from Great Britain, albeit peacefully, not through arms. While we share similar aspects of our history, one thing sets up apart from our American neighbours, we believe much can be achieved through peaceful means. Even if it takes longer.

 

 

That said, we still have school shootings, just not in the same numbers as the States. In fact, my home town saw THREE school shootings with multiple deaths, two of them in engineering departments and numerous bomb warnings. Gosh, we take those seriously.

 

And we have a saying here about the American Second Amendment. Sure you have rights to bear arms, any and all arms that were in existence at the time of the writing of the amendment! And nothing else. And we mean guns that were in existence then, not replicas of. Sure, feel free to own those. The guys who wrote the amendment had those arms in mind, not assault weapons. Assault weapons are not guns.

 

 

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

Unfortunately, way too long. And they come back each year. And every single year, on the anniversary, there will be something. The scar will never heal completely.

 

Gosh I can't believe I am about to post about this but, here goes...

 

Guns are such a part of American DNA that I am not sure we can even think rationally about it any more. It was only removing myself from gun culture for a while, and seeing how non-gun cultures live, that I was able to really think about the other side of the argument more clearly.

 

Welcome to the rest of the world's mentality ! ;-)

 

And as for criminals having weapons and the law-abiding citizens not, well, the criminals will only arm themselves just slightly better than the victim. If the victim has nothing, then a knife is enough. If the victim has some sort of automated weapon, then the criminals will need two or three. Criminals are not going to spend more than what's necessary to earn money. They only need to have an advantage over their prey. In a country where everyone owns guns in the home, criminals better be ready, and they do! Owning guns does not lower the crime level, it only ups the violence related to crime.

[Davysmom]

I have never heard of anyone in Newtown not being able to get access to any kind of help that they needed. If it isn't available in town, Manhattan, Stamford, Hartford, Boston and New Haven (Yale) are all a reasonable distance. It would take an amazing amount of money and effort to be able to predict which odd ball is likely to snap next. I would absolutely support increasing funding for mental health issues but that is only part of the problem. We will never be able to stop people like Timothy McVeigh but we should be able to stop people like Adam Lanza. On the same day that the children were killed in Newtown, a man in China stabbed 22 children at a primary school. There were no fatalities.

 

 

One of the biggest challenges with mental illness in adults is not lack of money or access (those are challenges for many!), but that simple fact that you can't make someone get help. This young man was an adult there is very little that can be done if he doesn't want help. My sister is a mentally ill adult. We have spent years trying to get her help. She doesn't think anything is wrong with her - she thinks it's everyone else. It was only after a series of events with the same 2 sympathetic police officers were we able to make any head way. They forced her on a psychiatric hold at a hospital where she was locked up. (We are so thankful that they were the same officers to respond despite the fact that she lives in a large city.) Because of that we were we able to get her help for the first time in 15 years! (We prayed often she wouldn't hurt anyone!) Even after being hospitalized for weeks, diagnosed and getting the correct medication, it has taken 6 months of jumping through hoops to get in to see a doctor and get the meds prescribed on an ongoing basis. Then there is making sure they actually take their medication. We had a hard time navigating the "system" - there is no way a mentally ill person can sort it all out. There is very little my mother has been able to do since my sister was a teen. I have no idea what the answer is, but it's incredibly hard.

[BarbecueMom]

Well I for one am not part of the American gun culture. I never have been and never will be. We have too many guns in this country. And sadly, making laws about it won't solve that part of the problem.

 

And even if I can get over myself long enough to make an exception for hunting and sports, no hunter needs an automatic assault weapon for hunting. But apparently guns are more important than common sense.

 

 

If Lanza was using an AR-15 like was initially reported, it is not an assault rifle. The AR-15 doesn't have an automatic firing option like the M16 does, which is what makes it an assault weapon.

 

I think a lot of people get "assault rifle" and "semi-automatic rifle" confused, because the previous assault weapons ban extended to weapons that "looked like" military-style weapons, even if they didn't have an automatic firing function. IMO, that leads to more confusion. We'd be better off educating the public as to what an automatic weapon is, what a semi-auto is, and exercise gun control based on function and practicality rather than, "Gee, that looks scary!" Regardless of your views on firearm ownership, more knowledge is always better than misinformation.

[TravelingChris]

There are countries with even more guns per population than the US. Look at Switzerland. The so caolled assault gun ban did nothing. It was in place for ten years. We have plenty of evidence. The US is not Australia or Scotland as we have a constitution that has an amendment protecting gun ownership. And who would you have take away the guns? The military wouldn't do it- gun ownership is very popular in the military as it is with law enforcement.

 

I support more concealed weapon permits and less gun free zones. Why aren't we talking about Clackamas Mall which happened right before this shooting? In that one, a shooter went to the mall to do a mass shooting. He shot two and then he saw a man pointing a gun at him. He then fled and committed suicide. IF you are serious about solving problems, research the issue. There are numerous cases of shootings being stopped because of an armed person stopping them.

[MBM]

AFAIK, no one yet knows if the Lanza family had sought any counseling for Adam. Are there any reliable accounts suggesting the family had?

[catz]

 

Yep, very true.

 

I can't say I totally blame people for not wanting to take their meds or to even get help. They are often not treated very well. The medications have a lot of side affects and often offer only minimal relief. When people are manic or on a high they feel great even if they seem out of their mind. Making them take drugs that dull their feelings isn't exactly a very inviting prospect.

 

:iagree: This was a mother dealing with an adult child. She may not have had the power to get him help.

 

I read a book recently called "January First" about a young girl dxed with schizophrenia. This has been discussed here and some people find her story controversial. She was diagnosed after 6 months inpatient, her dx is confirmed by a number of psychologists. Her book was extremely eye opening about the struggles parents of extremely distrurbed kids face. It really can take months of inpatient observation and care to get a good diagnosis and drugs regulated and to make sure environmental triggers aren't at play. It took these parents years to get inpatient at a high quality mental hospital. Insurance companies aren't in favor and there are rarely enough beds in mental wards. They're pretty vocal on mental health issues for kids.

 

https://www.facebook.com/janifoundation?fref=ts

 

Even if facilities look good on the surface, I think parents can have a hard time getting insurance companies to cover what really needs to be done for reasonable dx and treatment.

[Farrar]

I know the conversation has taken a different turn, but the reason Columbine is remembered more than many of these is partly the factors suggested already, but it is in large part because it was planned that way. The timing, the methods, the spacing of the killings, everything - if you read the Dave Cullen book about it, he shows how they were smart kids who wanted us to remember it the way we do.

[Dana]

 

There are some things in the American culture that me as an outside observer just cannot fathom.

 

 

There are some things in the American culture that some of us who live here cannot fathom.

[Reya]

The absurd publicity and the hagiography of the Columbine shooters was the "start."

 

Has very little to do with the murder. There have been mass shootings before. Had everything to do with the news coverage.

[I.Dup.]

I know the conversation has taken a different turn, but the reason Columbine is remembered more than many of these is partly the factors suggested already, but it is in large part because it was planned that way. The timing, the methods, the spacing of the killings, everything - if you read the Dave Cullen book about it, he shows how they were smart kids who wanted us to remember it the way we do.

 

That is interesting. I will have to get that book.

 

Re: guns (since I guess we are allowed to talk about it? Which is good, I think) I am not a gun person but my husband most definitely is. He was raised with guns in the deep south and we own several. We own an assault rifle and the only reason he got it was for the cool factor, because many of his uncles own one and he wanted to get one before his brother. He loves guns. But even he recently admitted there is no need to own an assault weapon. There is most definitely a huge gun culture in the U.S. Talking about even putting restrictions on guns is difficult.

[Hannah]

There are countries with even more guns per population than the US. Look at Switzerland.

 

Please link a source.

While searching for stats I came across this very intersting article in the Washington post stating that the USA has the most guns per capita in the world. And Switzerland is somewhat unique situation in that "it does not have a standing army instead opting for a peoples' militia for its national defense. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations".

[Kathryn]

 

 

That is interesting. I will have to get that book.

 

Re: guns (since I guess we are allowed to talk about it? Which is good, I think) I am not a gun person but my husband most definitely is. He was raised with guns in the deep south and we own several. We own an assault rifle and the only reason he got it was for the cool factor, because many of his uncles own one and he wanted to get one before his brother. He loves guns. But even he recently admitted there is no need to own an assault weapon. There is most definitely a huge gun culture in the U.S. Talking about even putting restrictions on guns is difficult.

 

 

This is my DH also although he's piecing together an assault rifle and would never admit that people don't need them. He's firmly of the American, and even more so Southern, mindset that the people must be able to overthrow the military should the need arise. I, on the other hand, would be perfectly fine if guns didn't exist.

[asta]

I find it funny that people use the first amendment to lambast the 2nd amendment.

 

Only it isn't funny, as the 2nd amendment is there to secure the first (and the rest).

 

 

A

[Parrothead]

Okay, say you did this. At what age would you tell your offspring where the key is or what the combination is? Would you assume that by voting age someone is mature enough to not go on a shooting rampage at their former elementary?

 

It is not of the offspring's business where the key is or what the combination is. Said offspring can get his or her own gun once he or she has a job and is capable or purchasing one his or her self. Firearms are tools and when they are not being used as intended (hunting, sport or law enforcement/military) there is no need for anyone to have easy access to them.

 

And no, I'm sorry, one can't assume anything about any one at any age. People are vastly different from each other.

[Nakia]

It is a scary time to have a mental illness diagnosis. I know because I have one.

 

I can't say anymore right now. I don't know how.

[Parrothead]

It is a scary time to have a mental illness diagnosis. I know because I have one.

 

I can't say anymore right now. I don't know how.

:grouphug:

[Woodhaven]

Just my opinion....

 

We need better ways to help people, to help family members who see a loved one loosing himself/herself in the dark side. If we could fix our mental health system so that those who really need help get it without harassing those who are just different or have different religious views, or whatever , it might make a difference.

[Audrey]

How is that even relevant? 4 bullets through the head -- or in the case of some of the children UP TO 11 BULLETS -- produce the same result coming from an assault rifle or a semi-automatic rifle. Sure, we can argue about the difference in gore spray, extent of tissue damage, and whether or not the rounds lodge in or completely pierce the child's head, but really -- wtf difference does that make?

 

If Lanza was using an AR-15 like was initially reported, it is not an assault rifle. The AR-15 doesn't have an automatic firing option like the M16 does, which is what makes it an assault weapon.

 

I think a lot of people get "assault rifle" and "semi-automatic rifle" confused, because the previous assault weapons ban extended to weapons that "looked like" military-style weapons, even if they didn't have an automatic firing function. IMO, that leads to more confusion. We'd be better off educating the public as to what an automatic weapon is, what a semi-auto is, and exercise gun control based on function and practicality rather than, "Gee, that looks scary!" Regardless of your views on firearm ownership, more knowledge is always better than misinformation.

[justLisa]

This has been going on forever and everywhere. MEDIA. We used to only hear about stuff one town over. Now the split second anything happens it is plastered on screens around the world.

[TravelingChris]

Fully automatic weapons have been banned for longer than any of us have been alive in the US. Who knows what someone means as an assault weapon???? Over 70% of guns sold are semi-automatic and actually in some ways they can be less lethal than plain revolvers. Why? Because clips jam versus the revolver doesn't. They are not talking about banning all semi-automatics. This is what a lot of the problem is- the bans are semantic not actual. So one of the bans used to be on the color of the weapon-huh??? What does that have to do with lethality?

 

But we also have to remember that the USA is a very large country. While someone in suburban CT may not see a reason to own a high powered rifle, someone who lives in the wilderness in Alaska with Grizzlies and wolves might have a different opinion.

 

We don;t have any of the so called assault weapons. BUt apparently neither was the Bushmaker AR-15.

 

And Audrey, you are completely right- the gun type doesn't matter. It didn't even matter the clip size since he taped extra clips to the sides of the gun for fast change. Therefore the onus is on other means of preventing such disasters and one of the best ones is to get rid of gun-free zones and have responsible people armed.

[Laura Corin]

 

But we also have to remember that the USA is a very large country. While someone in suburban CT may not see a reason to own a high powered rifle, someone who lives in the wilderness in Alaska with Grizzlies and wolves might have a different opinion.

 

 

Just to make it clear how a different regime might work: I just looked up the firearm licence rules as they obtain in Fife. You can get a licence for a shotgun or a rifle based on 'good reason', normally evidence of authority to shoot over a particular stretch of land, or membership of a target-shooting club. Farmers and others who live in the country commonly have weapons suitable for rural uses. Britain does not ban their ownership - it just limits it strictly. Hand guns are banned.

 

I'm glad that our neighbouring farmer has guns; he is happy to dispatch any injured wild animals that we come across.

 

Laura

[BarbecueMom]

How is that even relevant? 4 bullets through the head -- or in the case of some of the children UP TO 11 BULLETS -- produce the same result coming from an assault rifle or a semi-automatic rifle. Sure, we can argue about the difference in gore spray, extent of tissue damage, and whether or not the rounds lodge in or completely pierce the child's head, but really -- wtf difference does that make?

 

 

It's relevant because the AR-15 was never considered an assault weapon, and was not included in the original assault ban. And people don't realize that reinstating the previous ban DOES NOT include this type of weapon, because it is designed just enough differently. Banning weapons based on their similar appearance to military-grade guns wouldn't have kept this particular gun out of anyone's hands. A small-caliber rifle can do a lot of damage too, but when people are calling specifically for a ban on assault weapons, it would be best to know what exactly we're talking about.

 

ETA: My reply was specifically to the dialogue of reinstating the previous legislation with no changes, not overall gun control policy.

[Meriwether]

Just googled dates for a few I remember. Kip Kinkel at Thurston High in Springfield OR was a year before Columbine. Paducah Kentucky was a year before Thurston.

 

 

Paducah was the first I remember. I don't know if I heard about others before that and just didn't remember. We always went to church camp at the same time as a group from Paducah. Even though we weren't close geographically, that one made more of an impression on me.

[Audrey]

 

 

And Audrey, you are completely right- the gun type doesn't matter. It didn't even matter the clip size since he taped extra clips to the sides of the gun for fast change. Therefore the onus is on other means of preventing such disasters and one of the best ones is to get rid of gun-free zones and have responsible people armed.

 

 

 

That has to be the absolute worst argument for preventing these disasters. Period.

 

What you are suggesting has the potential for even more disaster. IMO, NO responsible person goes about in public carrying guns, except law enforcement. No ordinary citizen should have handguns. Period.

 

No person should have long guns except for the express purpose of hunting game. And, even then, those weapons should be applied for including a screening process, background checks and a thorough registration process.

 

Rampant gun-lust is killing America. Continue to defend your "right to bear arms" and continue to kill yourselves.

[Audrey]

Gosh I can't believe I am about to post about this but, here goes...

 

As many of you know, I am a conservative, über-republican, Jesus freak. I come from a family of avid hunters. My parents and my brothers own guns. My ds was a competitive sharp-shooter before we moved. My family is backwoods Alabama for goodness sake and I grew up in Detroit. Guns are just a normal part of life in my world.

 

But something has happened to me while living here.

 

All guns... even BB guns, pellet guns, etc.... are illegal to own without a license which is pretty much impossible to get. And after being here almost 4 years I've discovered that...well... I really prefer it that way.

 

Ok, here is where Ted Nugent bungee-jumps in and yanks my NRA card.

 

Guns are such a part of American DNA that I am not sure we can even think rationally about it any more. It was only removing myself from gun culture for a while, and seeing how non-gun cultures live, that I was able to really think about the other side of the argument more clearly.

 

According to statistics, Malaysia has 370,000 total guns owned by civilians or 1.5 guns for every 100 people. In America there are estimated to be 270,000,000 guns or a rate of nearly 90 guns per 100 people.

 

The number of gun homicides in Malaysia is around 50 people per year. In America there are more than 9000 gun deaths per year.

 

It is nearly impossible to own a gun legally here. The restrictions on it are heavy to say the least. In America you can buy one at Walmart.

 

Malaysia is number 20 on the Global Peace Index out of 158 countries. America is 88.

 

I feel myself drifting to the dark side... I have never typed these words before: I am no longer in favor of gun ownership. I promise I am still just as republican as I ever was but I just can't understand the gun obsession any more. I prefer life without them.

 

The whole argument about if regular people don't own guns then only the criminals will have them just doesn't hold water here or in a lot of other countries. I'm not really against hunting or collecting, etc. But one for every person? I think we can see how well that's going.

 

Ok, I'm going to go hide from my American friends now.

 

 

That was amazingly brave of you. It is very difficult, when you are sitting in the middle of a gun-lusting culture like the US, to see the gun-lust around you. I know I did not see it much when I lived there either. I remember shortly after I moved here. There was a news item that the province had recorded its 30th murder for the year. This was around October/November of that year. I remember thinking, "huh, that's a slow Miami weekend." It didn't faze me at all. But oh my word! You should have seen the news stories that week. People were really upset. Outraged, even. It was the talk of everyone I ran into for weeks. It was considered unthinkable. I felt a little sick that I didn't think that was a big deal. It really hit me that "getting used to" a bunch of murders in the news was a sick thing.

 

Once you can see more objectively, removed from the inundation of propaganda and cultural pressures to conform to that philosophy, you see it for what it is. And, when you move out of that country to another where life is so vastly different (although YOU are the same person, so you think), that becomes even clearer.

 

If I could "like" your post a thousand times, I would, but I can't, so I'll just like you a thousand times more.

[Meriwether]

 

As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.â€

 

Actually, I think drunks on the road are a bigger problem than privately owned guns. They kill more people. A drunk driver killed my cousin, his sister and his mother when I was young. One of the kids in my very small high school died because his brother was driving while intoxicated. At the funeral, one of the ladies said, "We've been doing well lately. We used to lose one a year." A drunk driver ran my grandmother and aunt of the road and put them both in the hospital. After her injuries, Grammy could no longer live in her home. She was placed, permanenty, in a nursing home. I wonder how many anti-gun folks would be in favor of prohibition?

[Melissa in Australia]

 

 

That has to be the absolute worst argument for preventing these disasters. Period.

 

What you are suggesting has the potential for even more disaster. IMO, NO responsible person goes about in public carrying guns, except law enforcement. No ordinary citizen should have handguns. Period.

 

No person should have long guns except for the express purpose of hunting game. And, even then, those weapons should be applied for including a screening process, background checks and a thorough registration process.

 

Rampant gun-lust is killing America. Continue to defend your "right to bear arms" and continue to kill yourselves.

 

 

:iagree:

though I would add that farmers should be allowed to have gun as well, to dispatch suffering stock.

[I.Dup.]

 

Actually, I think drunks on the road are a bigger problem than privately owned guns. They kill more people. A drunk driver killed my cousin, his sister and his mother when I was young. One of the kids in my very small high school died because his brother was driving while intoxicated. At the funeral, one of the ladies said, "We've been doing well lately. We used to lose one a year." A drunk driver ran my grandmother and aunt of the road and put them both in the hospital. After her injuries, Grammy could no longer live in her home. She was placed, permanenty, in a nursing home. I wonder how many anti-gun folks would be in favor of prohibition?

 

 

I agree that drunk driving is a huge, disgusting problem. But wouldn't you say federal authorities have stricter laws and more vigilance against the misuse of alcohol than the misuse of guns?

[Audrey]

 

:iagree:

though I would add that farmers should be allowed to have gun as well, to dispatch suffering stock.

 

 

 

Point taken -- being that it is strictly for utilitarian use on animals.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

 

That was amazingly brave of you. It is very difficult, when you are sitting in the middle of a gun-lusting culture like the US, to see the gun-lust around you. I know I did not see it much when I lived there either. I remember shortly after I moved here. There was a news item that the province had recorded its 30th murder for the year. This was around October/November of that year. I remember thinking, "huh, that's a slow Miami weekend." It didn't faze me at all. But oh my word! You should have seen the news stories that week. People were really upset. Outraged, even. It was the talk of everyone I ran into for weeks. It was considered unthinkable. I felt a little sick that I didn't think that was a big deal. It really hit me that "getting used to" a bunch of murders in the news was a sick thing.

 

Once you can see more objectively, removed from the inundation of propaganda and cultural pressures to conform to that philosophy, you see it for what it is. And, when you move out of that country to another where life is so vastly different (although YOU are the same person, so you think), that becomes even clearer.

 

If I could "like" your post a thousand times, I would, but I can't, so I'll just like you a thousand times more.

 

 

You are so right about not seeing it when you are mired in it. It hit me hard when I went back this past summer and watched the news...it was so filled with killings and all were with guns... and the gun stores all over the place... and all the bumper stickers on cars that say stuff like "You will have to pry my gun from my cold, dead fingers!!"

 

etc. etc.

 

It all came off as being so...I don't know... RABID almost. It's like we're paranoid that at any second we will need to kill someone so we need to be ready. As an outsider (which I feel like now), you get this impression that Americans sleep with their boots on and hugging their guns. It was just so alarming and sad. And like you, I was upset with myself for never having noticed it before.

 

Then Sandyhook happens and FB explodes with posts and memes of Charlton Heston and pictures of the US flag with guns next to it as if american=guns. And my word, the gun hysteria has just gone through the roof. Anyone who even HINTS at the idea that maybe, just maybe, there are too many guns in America and maybe, just maybe, they are too available is instantly labeled unpatriotic as if I am dressed in red and dancing on the graves of the founding fathers by even thinking it.

 

I am American. I love America. I never thought too much about gun control because guns were so normal to me and it never occurred to me that there is another way... that other countries live quite peacefully without guns for everyone. So it is still surprising me that I am even typing all this. But we Americans have a blindspot and it is heavily guarded by well-armed, constitution-toting citizens. Until we acknowledge that, and attempt to have an honest, intellectual discussion about this mentality, the killing will continue.

[Shamzanne]

This issue seems crystal clear to me so we will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for giving me something to do for a little while though. Being completely useless is the worst part. I was hoping to go help keep the Westboro Baptist Church idiots away but the darned people never showed up.

 

So, for those of you who have lived through something like this, how long did it take for the media circus to go away?

 

 

 

At Thurston, the satelite trucks from all over the world that lined the street in front of our school were around for over a week. It gradually got better, as in finally we could walk in front of the school without being seen on CNN.

 

I would recommend a book called Amish Grace by Kraybill, Nolt, and Weaver. It tells the story of the shooting at the amish school in PA and the extent of the effect on the community. I read it a year ago (13 years after I experienced the Thurston shooting) and it was immensely encouraging and helpful in processing things I had thought were over and done with.

[Shawna in Texas]

Heather, I really appreciate your posts in this thread.

 

It's another division for our country. Those who feel safer with more guns and those who feel safer with less.

[Melissa in Australia]

Fully automatic weapons have been banned for longer than any of us have been alive in the US. Who knows what someone means as an assault weapon???? Over 70% of guns sold are semi-automatic and actually in some ways they can be less lethal than plain revolvers. Why? Because clips jam versus the revolver doesn't. They are not talking about banning all semi-automatics. This is what a lot of the problem is- the bans are semantic not actual. So one of the bans used to be on the color of the weapon-huh??? What does that have to do with lethality?

 

But we also have to remember that the USA is a very large country. While someone in suburban CT may not see a reason to own a high powered rifle, someone who lives in the wilderness in Alaska with Grizzlies and wolves might have a different opinion.

 

We don;t have any of the so called assault weapons. BUt apparently neither was the Bushmaker AR-15.

 

And Audrey, you are completely right- the gun type doesn't matter. It didn't even matter the clip size since he taped extra clips to the sides of the gun for fast change. Therefore the onus is on other means of preventing such disasters and one of the best ones is to get rid of gun-free zones and have responsible people armed.

 

 

My DH is a Canadian, he spent a huge amount of time out in the Canadian wilderness doing big canoe trips , camping etc. etc. He never ever took a gun, and was never ever afraid of grizzlies or wolves. However, when he went to Alaska, he was afraid to walk anywhere near any campground, as they were full of Americans shooting every animal in sight. He was afraid of being shot by mistake. Something that would not happen on the other side of the border.

[Elizabeth in MN]

G-d I hate these threads. Nothing gets worked out, everyone digs their heels in and nothing gets fixed. Ima go have my Hard Cider now.