Victoria's Secret, Rape Culture, and Teen Girls

[Elizabeth in MN]

http://www.baltimorefishbowl.com/stories/baltimore-feminists-prank-victorias-secret-and-spark-an-internet-revolution/

 

This article really made me step back and think hard about the issues they brought up. Granted, I stopped shopping at VS when I was a D cup because they don't make bras past a C, but the sayings on the underwear are OUTRAGEOUS. Pre-teens could wear clothing like what they sell. Then the underhanded oppression of what amounts to a PSA is horrible.

 

What are your thoughts?

[justLisa]

Ask first? Gee LOL. Isn't that sort of a "duh."

 

I'm not sure if you've been there lately but they go WAY past a C

[Parrothead]

http://www.baltimore...net-revolution/

 

This article really made me step back and think hard about the issues they brought up. Granted, I stopped shopping at VS when I was a D cup because they don't make bras past a C, but the sayings on the underwear are OUTRAGEOUS. Pre-teens could wear clothing like what they sell. Then the underhanded oppression of what amounts to a PSA is horrible.

 

What are your thoughts?

Preteens could wear what they sell but who is buying it for them?

[Elizabeth in MN]

Ah, they go up to a 40DDD now. Still too small for my 42H. Mom and I joke that our b00ks are the result of selective breeding on the part of male b00k lovers.

[Joker]

Preteens could wear what they sell but who is buying it for them?

 

 

This. As far as what's written being outrageous, I see worse stuff on t-shirts all the time. I also don't feel rape has anything to do with being sexy.

[aggieamy]

I guess I don't get it. The underwear you have on isn't going to get you raped or prevent you from being raped. I know that discussion about topics like this is good but frankly this just seems like a silly advertising campaign.

 

Pre-teens are not buying things there. Parents are either buying them or giving pre-teens money to shop with and not caring where they spend it. I know zero eleven year olds with jobs or transporation to get to VC to buy thier own unmentionable.

[Slartibartfast]

I am stunned that they made underwear with "Sure Thing" on it.

 

Initializing hate mail sequence.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I haven't shopped there in years. They objectify and marginalize women. They don't get my money. Their latest stunts only serve to strengthen my resolve.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Preteens could wear what they sell but who is buying it for them?

 

Parents, "cool" family, friends of the family and the like. I have a friend with a daughter who was visiting another friend over the weekend. The other friend took the daughter to VS to buy her bras. People on these boards have talked about their daughters asking for stuff from the Pink line because other girls are wearing it at school.

 

 

I also don't feel rape has anything to do with being sexy.

 

And that's where rape culture comes in. So many women are raped because they are allegedly dressed provocatively. The whole "she was asking for it" defense, which worked for a long time, and still is used in court.

 

Read the article, you'll see how it all ties in.

 

 

I know that discussion about topics like this is good but frankly this just seems like a silly advertising campaign.

 

Ah, but the rape education people aren't selling anything for money. They are raising awareness.

[Parrothead]

Parents, "cool" family, friends of the family and the like. I have a friend with a daughter who was visiting another friend over the weekend. The other friend took the daughter to VS to buy her bras. People on these boards have talked about their daughters asking for stuff from the Pink line because other girls are wearing it at school.

Well, parents could say no. I'd be outraged if a friend of the family took my dd to VS to buy her bras. I'd really wonder what the he77 that person was thinking. I'd probably end the friendship over something like that. And what is going on at school that girls are showing their undergarments?

 

It is bad enough that the media romanticizes rape. Feeding into that with provocative clothing for kids is just sickening.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Ah, they go up to a 40DDD now. Still too small for my 42H. Mom and I joke that our b00ks are the result of selective breeding on the part of male b00k lovers.

 

 

I still don't shop there, even though I went from a 42H to a 38D with breast reduction surgery. When I first got pregnant with ds1, I was a 38H, and I could only find one bra that size (from the "specialty" bra shop who had to special order it for me). It was the most uncomfortable thing I ever wore in my life. I went back to shoving the bOOks into Lane Bryant 40DDDs! I dealt with the spill over as best as I could.

 

Anyway, I don't even want to click on that link. The stuff young girls and boys wear these days grosses me out beyond belief. No one wants to see that!

[ErinE]

First, I don't think Victoria's Secret is contributing to a "rape culture" by printing stupid sayings on their clothes. Actual cultures promoting rape do exist, but I think the US is not one of them. I won't list countries, because I don't want to get into a political discussion. Stupid opinions by real buffoons get splashed all over the national news, but in my experience, most people hear the quotes and think, "What a moron."

 

I think many pre-teens and teens dress in provocative clothing to take ownership of their clothing choices and broadcast their maturity. I know as a teen I made silly clothing choices, and when she was a teen, my mother dressed in skirts and dresses WAY shorter than anything I ever put on. Teens are not mature enough to realize adults don't usually dress in underwear or garments promoting their s*xuality or personality. Most adults get dressed to be clothed for the day.

 

If VS didn't print it, Spencer's or some similar company would do it. Do I agree with what VS does? No, which is why I don't spend my money there. I'm okay with people protesting VS and explaining their views, but to say VS promotes a rape culture is over the top. The company isn't stoning s*xually assaulted women, it isn't forcing women to marry against their will, and it's not preventing women from getting an education and a job to take care of themselves.

[Janie Grace]

Well, I agree that it promotes a rape culture... NOT because of what the underwear says to men but because of what it says to women (or, perhaps more accurately, girls). No, a man is not going to be turned on by a slogan and then rape someone as a result. HOWEVER, these slogans like "yes, no, maybe" teach girls that being undecided is cute, that being firm about her "no" is not cool (because VS Pink *is* cool). I think a girl's psyche IS subtly shaped by panties bearing "sure thing". If the cool girls are known to wear that line of panties, then being a "sure thing" becomes cool. It's about peer pressure among girls, not messages sent to men.

[butterflymommy]

Well, for the (apparently) many hive ladies looking for "tunic like tops" VS minidresses work really well as "long tops." Just be sure to buy a size or two up as all their clothes are tight, tight, tight!

[Firefly]

Well, I agree that it promotes a rape culture... NOT because of what the underwear says to men but because of what it says to women (or, perhaps more accurately, girls). No, a man is not going to be turned on by a slogan and then rape someone as a result. HOWEVER, these slogans like "yes, no, maybe" teach girls that being undecided is cute, that being firm about her "no" is not cool (because VS Pink *is* cool). I think a girl's psyche IS subtly shaped by panties bearing "sure thing". If the cool girls are known to wear that line of panties, then being a "sure thing" becomes cool. It's about peer pressure among girls, not messages sent to men.

 

Agreed. Also--the U.S. is not a rape culture?? Statistics would argue otherwise.

[jenangelcat]

Actual cultures promoting rape do exist, but I think the US is not one of them. I won't list countries, because I don't want to get into a political discussion.

 

The U.S absolutely qualifies. I could list a million reasons why. Just look at the media.

[Abigail4476]

I don't know any girls or women who walk around publicly in their underwear on a regular basis (at all!), so what does it matter what their underwear looks like? And what on earth does what women wear UNDER their clothing have to do with them getting raped?

[mommymilkies]

I don't know any girls or women who walk around publicly in their underwear on a regular basis (at all!), so what does it matter what their underwear looks like? And what on earth does what women wear UNDER their clothing have to do with them getting raped?

 

you would not believe how many young girls & women walk around with undies showing on the back, or worse yet, through pants/skirts. I did that accidently once. My gray skirt was more see through than I expected. Luckily dh alerted me (he was happy with it /eyeroll).

[Abigail4476]

you would not believe how many young girls & women walk around with undies showing on the back, or worse yet, through pants/skirts. I did that accidently once. My gray skirt was more see through than I expected. Luckily dh alerted me (he was happy with it /eyeroll).

 

 

LOL!!! :laugh:

 

I know that bad taste and accidental flashing happens, but generally speaking, women wear clothing that at least mostly conceals their underwear and bras. I guess I think of underclothes as something personal that only the wearer and their partner[s?] sees. What is the recommended alternative to pretty, sexy or cute underclothes? Women must wear plain cotton granny panties or risk being accosted? If I wear panties that say "Sure Thing", but only my husband sees them, how does that contribute to my risk of being raped? For that matter, if I wear any type of sexy underwear that only my husband sees, how does that contribute to my risk of being raped?

 

I don't see what this has to do with a "rape culture."

[happi duck]

At least around here, the PINK line from VS is worn by young girls, high school and younger.

[Just Kate]

I don't know any girls or women who walk around publicly in their underwear on a regular basis (at all!), so what does it matter what their underwear looks like? And what on earth does what women wear UNDER their clothing have to do with them getting raped?

Well, I agree that it promotes a rape culture... NOT because of what the underwear says to men but because of what it says to women (or, perhaps more accurately, girls). No, a man is not going to be turned on by a slogan and then rape someone as a result. HOWEVER, these slogans like "yes, no, maybe" teach girls that being undecided is cute, that being firm about her "no" is not cool (because VS Pink *is* cool). I think a girl's psyche IS subtly shaped by panties bearing "sure thing". If the cool girls are known to wear that line of panties, then being a "sure thing" becomes cool. It's about peer pressure among girls, not messages sent to men.

 

The posts that I quoted are out of order, however, I think that Janie Grace does a great job of answering the questions asked by Abigail. I agree with Abigail that it is quite unlikely that someone will be raped based on what underwear she is wearing that day. However, I think that by printing the words - SURE THING - on the crotch of a pair of panties and then marketing them to young girls (meaning teenagers - high school or college age students) is terrible! As the article linked by the OP states:

 

The “Sure Thing†and “Yes No Maybe†and “NO peeking†underwear promote the idea of limitless availability, or on the other hand, leaving the choice up to the (presumably male) partner. The brand teaches girls to be coy instead of vocal and makes it seem uncool and unsexy to say no and mean it. By re-enforcing that sex is about an image, that looking good is more important than feeling good, PINK promotes rape culture.

 

I do believe that what you wear affects how you feel...even if no one else sees it. I know that for myself, when I wear my nice underwear, I just feel better. :)

 

I haven't shopped at VS in ages, but now that I know more about this Pink line, I won't. I will not support any company that makes money this way.

[Ghee]

 

 

And that's where rape culture comes in. So many women are raped because they are allegedly dressed provocatively. The whole "she was asking for it" defense, which worked for a long time, and still is used in court.

 

 

 

I have to say, I don't see wearing sexy underwear as asking for it. If you are walking around showing the underwear...... I don't care what a girl's underwear says. Even if it says "**** me", if it's covered up she isn't likely to be raped for wearing it. If she removes her clothes and then gets more attention than she can handle, there is a problem and it is partly hers for removing her clothes...but to say concealed underwear increase rape...? I'm not quoting you to say that is what you said, btw, I'm arguing that VS has nothing to do with "askin for it" :)

 

No. I think buying my pre-teen or teen daughter underwear with sexy sayings is pushing her into s*xu&lity when she is far too young. Girls that age shouldn't be thinking of themselves as hotties or their private parts as pleasure for boys parts. I don't think putting my 10 year old in bikini cuts because they are comfortable and don't show over her (not low cut) jeans is going to push her into early s*x, but putting her in underwear that says "sure thing" might. VS, itself, isn't the problem. I buy cotton panties from there and DH says they aren't all that hot. It's the people who buy the smutty underwear from them. I can't blame them for selling what people are buying.

[msjones]

I'm amazed to see a group of feminists suggesting that girls/women are promoting a so-called 'rape culture' by what they choose to wear.

 

I kinda see the point, but they are teetering on a slippery, slippery slope.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have complained about writing on the butts of young girls before (or anybody!). I have underwear from VS and none of them have writing on the crotch. I don't buy underwear for my pre-teens or teens at VS. I would never buy underwear for my pre-teens or teens that had any kind of writing on the crotch. I think the people thinking young girls should wear underwear from VS is half the problem.

[Slartibartfast]

I am not so sure, those underwear that say "yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" do not seem very empowering.

 

I was in sports and I did often wear shorts to practice that had a giant purple dinosaur on the butt, or some that someone had sewed my name on the butt, but if I had "sure thing" on my britches my mom would have come UNGLUED.

 

There is no way I would buy underwear that had writing on the butt or crotch for my kids, I don't know who is buying underwear for such young girls from them. It is bizarre.

 

 

I dunno, I think a company does have some responsibility in how it markets it's products and what it sells. Many of the people looking at the catalog are not girls. The majority of those who see those underpants will be in the catalog. Does no actually mean no or does it mean maybe?

 

 

The US does have serious problems with rape culture, this article is still about what women are wearing rather than telling guys not to rape.

[swimmermom3]

 

Yeah I often wonder who they are selling to really.

 

Wendy, the VS stores here are spilling over with teen males and their girlfriends shopping together. My nieces have been asking for gift cards since they were 12. Need I say more. :tongue_smilie:

[Joker]

Wendy, the VS stores here are spilling over with teen males and their girlfriends shopping together. My nieces have been asking for gift cards since they were 12. Need I say more. :tongue_smilie:

 

This seriously boggles my mind and I have a 13 yr dd in public middle school. She actually will look the other way when we pass the store in the mall (she won't even walk inside an Abercrombie store because of the pics). She has several friends but I just never hear any of them talk about VS.

[Halftime Hope]

This really doesn't tie in with the VS thing, but I found it very interesting the past two summers when I worked at a uniform shop for *exclusive* prep schools, the kind where the yearly tuition could buy a small car, that the high school girls would come in and complain that the dresses and blouses didn't fit right in the chest. Um yeah, they didn't fit right b/c you are wearing a sports bra. Duh! Apparently that was the rage among all the girls at these schools, not to display the bOOks, but to (effectively) bind them.

 

This past summer, dd was in DC with a large group of summer interns working for a non-profit, and hanging out with interns from several other NGOs. Among the interns and among the College and Career young women at the large church she attended, there was a strong "you don't need a guy" ethos, different enough from what she has heard regionally that it caught her attention.

 

There is really no correlation between any of this, except maybe that the better education a girl has, the less prone she might be to be thinking "availability"?? It's a pretty thin generalization, but interesting, nonetheless.

[Annie G]

I have complained about writing on the butts of young girls before (or anybody!). I have underwear from VS and none of them have writing on the crotch. I don't buy underwear for my pre-teens or teens at VS. I would never buy underwear for my pre-teens or teens that had any kind of writing on the crotch. I think the people thinking young girls should wear underwear from VS is half the problem.

 

 

 

You wrote exactly how I feel. I HATE writing on the butt of girls' clothes. Hate it.

But I buy my undies at VS- the style I buy lasts a long time and I find it to be a good value.

My daughters (ranging from 20 to 29) buy their undies at VS, too.

 

I worry about my young granddaughters- tween clothing these days to just sooo suggestive. What will the norm be when my little grands are tweens???

[Word Nerd]

I think writing on panties is stupid and tacky no matter what it says. I can't take seriously the notion that the wording has anything to do with rape. The whole thing is just bizarre.

[justLisa]

Despite whatever else is wrong with it....I find it incredibly tacky. I mean if I ripped off my pants in front of DH I don't think he would need to ask me or see sure thing. I'm trying to figure out WHO would wear a pair of panties like that. I prefer crotchless without words. That sends the right message :lol:

[Kirch]

I agree that the idea that a girl is more likely to be raped because of a message she's wearing on her underwear is silly. BUT--that's NOT what they're saying. The people who put this prank together(and others) are talking about the effects these messages have on the girls who wear them, not on potential rapists around them. The concern is that girls will internalize the idea that it's not okay (or cool or whatever) to say no. These messages--"yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" or whatever--just add to the overwhelming pressure girls face to have s*x even if they're not sure or if they don't want to because otherwise they're afraid they'll be labeled as uptight, prudish, a tease, etc. So it's not so much that these are sending a message to the guys (although I think they do that too--more in a minute) as it is that it reinforces the idea that girls really don't have control over their bodies. Which would make it harder to clearly say NO in a high-pressure situation, leaving them vulnerable to date rape or even "consensual" s*x that they didn't really want (in that they DIDN'T say no even if they wanted to).

 

 

*edited to correct autocorrect. Again.

[Kirch]

And as far as the guys, again, the actual underwear a girl is wearing at the moment is unlikely to have any bearing on whether or not she is raped. But if guys are seeing and hearing this message too (and they are), that no doesn't always mean "no" and that s*x is a "sure thing," well, I think that would make some guys less likely to accept/believe a girl's "no." He's still responsible for his own actions, but our culture sure seems to be making clear communication on boundaries and s*x--which is hard enough anyway--next to impossible.

[Catwoman]

Yeah I often wonder who they are selling to really.

 

I know my dh bought me a shopping bag full of stuff there as part of my anniversary gift. :) Heaven only knows what he spent. :eek: The man does not even think about looking for a sale. :svengo:

 

I have seen the Pink line of VS merchandise, and most of it is no big deal at all. You'd find similar stuff in any other lingerie department -- including the discount stores like Walmart or Target. It's not like this stuff says, "Rape me" in big, bold letters -- and as others have already pointed out, if girls are stripping down and showing their panties to boys, I think this is far more of an inappropriate personal behavior issue than it is about the actual underwear. As I recall, teenage boys would be pleased with seeing pretty much any girl in any kind of underwear, so the VS Factor may be far less of an issue than many people imagine it to be.

 

My feeling is that if pre-teens and young teens are wearing suggestive undies, the problem doesn't lie with VS; it lies with their parents who let them purchase and wear the stuff.

[msjones]

I agree that the idea that a girl is more likely to be raped because of a message she's wearing on her underwear is silly. BUT--that's NOT what they're saying. The people who put this prank together(and others) are talking about the effects these messages have on the girls who wear them, not on potential rapists around them. The concern is that girls will internalize the idea that it's not okay (or cool or whatever) to say no. These messages--"yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" or whatever--just add to the overwhelming pressure girls face to have sexton even if they're not sure or if they don't want to because otherwise they're afraid they'll be labeled as uptight, prudish, a tease, etc. So it's not so much that these are sending a message to the guys (although I think they do that too--more in a minute) as it is that it reinforces the idea that girls really don't have control over their bodies. Which would make it harder to clearly say NO in a high-pressure situation, leaving them vulnerable to date rape or even "consensual" s*x that they didn't really want (in that they DIDN'T say no even if they wanted to).

 

You should have written the article. Lots more clarity in your post than in what I read.

[Kathryn]

I agree that the idea that a girl is more likely to be raped because of a message she's wearing on her underwear is silly. BUT--that's NOT what they're saying. The people who put this prank together(and others) are talking about the effects these messages have on the girls who wear them, not on potential rapists around them. The concern is that girls will internalize the idea that it's not okay (or cool or whatever) to say no. These messages--"yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" or whatever--just add to the overwhelming pressure girls face to have sexton even if they're not sure or if they don't want to because otherwise they're afraid they'll be labeled as uptight, prudish, a tease, etc. So it's not so much that these are sending a message to the guys (although I think they do that too--more in a minute) as it is that it reinforces the idea that girls really don't have control over their bodies. Which would make it harder to clearly say NO in a high-pressure situation, leaving them vulnerable to date rape or even "consensual" s*x that they didn't really want (in that they DIDN'T say no even if they wanted to).

 

I agree with this and what Janie Grace said. The point here is more what these kind of messages send to girls/women, not to men. This kind of culture absolutely relates to the way women deal with being pressured into unwanted sex.

[LaxMom]

Call me old fashioned, but I would think this would be a conversation to be had *before* my underwear made an appearance. If I need the reminder, maybe a note pinned to my shirt would be more functional. It seems that, finding myself without my clothes (presumably by some sort of consent), pausing to check my Magic 8 Ball thong for the answer as to whether we will proceed is rather toothless in the empowerment department.

 

And, for the man bent on such an act of violation, I can't see how signage on my undies is going to make a difference.

[I.Dup.]

I agree that the idea that a girl is more likely to be raped because of a message she's wearing on her underwear is silly. BUT--that's NOT what they're saying. The people who put this prank together(and others) are talking about the effects these messages have on the girls who wear them, not on potential rapists around them. The concern is that girls will internalize the idea that it's not okay (or cool or whatever) to say no. These messages--"yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" or whatever--just add to the overwhelming pressure girls face to have s*x even if they're not sure or if they don't want to because otherwise they're afraid they'll be labeled as uptight, prudish, a tease, etc. So it's not so much that these are sending a message to the guys (although I think they do that too--more in a minute) as it is that it reinforces the idea that girls really don't have control over their bodies. Which would make it harder to clearly say NO in a high-pressure situation, leaving them vulnerable to date rape or even "consensual" s*x that they didn't really want (in that they DIDN'T say no even if they wanted to).

 

 

*edited to correct autocorrect. Again.

 

I agree. Even 15-20 years ago when I was in middle/high school s*x was very much expected. All the cool kids were doing it. It was flaunted everywhere. It was definitely an expected rite of passage. I was still a v*rgin at 16 (well, in so many words...I was s*xually active in other ways far before then) and I felt very out of place. I lost my virginity soon after. The entire culture is very heavy on pressure for girls. I couldn't have expressed it at the time, but I definitely felt it and I'm sure I wasn't alone.

[Elizabeth in MN]

And what is going on at school that girls are showing their undergarments?

 

Oh, a little thing called physical education. Many bathrooms in high schools don't have doors anymore in an attempt to prevent sex and or drug use.

[Guest submarines]

Well, I agree that it promotes a rape culture... NOT because of what the underwear says to men but because of what it says to women (or, perhaps more accurately, girls). No, a man is not going to be turned on by a slogan and then rape someone as a result. HOWEVER, these slogans like "yes, no, maybe" teach girls that being undecided is cute, that being firm about her "no" is not cool (because VS Pink *is* cool). I think a girl's psyche IS subtly shaped by panties bearing "sure thing". If the cool girls are known to wear that line of panties, then being a "sure thing" becomes cool. It's about peer pressure among girls, not messages sent to men.

 

 

If girls are that influenced by what is written on their undies, then undies is the least of our worries.

[LucyStoner]

As long as discussions of rape focus on how women can prevent/protect themselves from rape rather than why men should not rape, we very much do have a rape culture.

 

I don't think these skeevy skivvies promote a rape culture so much as they reflect our rape culture.

 

Consistently girls are encouraged to be nice and meek even when accosted with unwanted sexual attention. A woman who stands firm and is assertive about stopping unwanted sexual attention is called or thought of as a humorless ball-busting b!tch and not only by the jerk she is telling to get the he!! away from her.

 

You won't find a more ardent feminist than me (or my husband) but I will admit, happily enough, that I do buy my skivvies from places like VS or similar but I am a sexually confident married woman. And I am a woman who will verbally and, if needed, physically go to the mat when I (or women I see) are being sexually harassed.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I agree that the idea that a girl is more likely to be raped because of a message she's wearing on her underwear is silly. BUT--that's NOT what they're saying. The people who put this prank together(and others) are talking about the effects these messages have on the girls who wear them, not on potential rapists around them. The concern is that girls will internalize the idea that it's not okay (or cool or whatever) to say no. These messages--"yes, no, maybe" or "sure thing" or whatever--just add to the overwhelming pressure girls face to have s*x even if they're not sure or if they don't want to because otherwise they're afraid they'll be labeled as uptight, prudish, a tease, etc. So it's not so much that these are sending a message to the guys (although I think they do that too--more in a minute) as it is that it reinforces the idea that girls really don't have control over their bodies. Which would make it harder to clearly say NO in a high-pressure situation, leaving them vulnerable to date rape or even "consensual" s*x that they didn't really want (in that they DIDN'T say no even if they wanted to).

 

 

*edited to correct autocorrect. Again.

 

 

Exactly. Our culture throws this HUGE false dichotomy at girls. On one hand, they are supposed to be strong, independent women, in charge of their own bodies, controlling their own destinies, blah blah blah. On the other hand, they are expected to be impossibly attractive sex-kittens and they're told that their worth lies almost entirely in men perceiving them as such. So, when a young, immature girl is pressured to have sex, who does she decide to be? The strong woman who can say no? Or the girl who is going to be mocked and labeled any number of things (prude, uptight, and much, much worse) because she doesn't WANT to have sex?

 

Honestly, this barrage of media lies is one of the things that TERRIFIES me about raising my girls into womanhood. It's one of the reasons I home school, and plan to for as long as I can. Hopefully in the meantime they will develop a healthy self-worth that will allow them to navigate the sexual culture with the maturity and strength that they'll need to face it.

[Catwoman]

Consistently girls are encouraged to be nice and meek even when accosted with unwanted sexual attention.

 

 

Who encourages that? :confused:

 

I don't know anyone who tells their dds that they should be nice and meek if a boy gets too pushy. When I was growing up, none of my friends had that attitude, either.

 

Sure, there's the attitude that girls should be attractive and sexy, but that's nothing new. I really think the idea that girls are actively encouraged to be sweet, meek, submissive little bimbos is incredibly overblown. From what I've seen with my friends' dds, the girls seem to be the ones who are manipulating and controlling the boys, not the other way around. If they're having sex, the girls are just as likely to be initiating it as the boys, if not more so.

[Word Nerd]

Hopefully in the meantime they will develop a healthy self-worth that will allow them to navigate the sexual culture with the maturity and strength that they'll need to face it.

 

I would like that for my girls as well. A healthy self-worth and maturity will come from the support and guidance they receive from you and others in their circle of influence, not from messages sent by their underpinnings.

[aggieamy]

I would like that for my girls as well. A healthy self-worth and maturity will come from the support and guidance they receive from you and others in their circle of influence, not from messages sent by their underpinnings.

 

I "liked" this but it's so good I think it deserves quoting and a hearty HELL YEAH! This is what I think.

[LucyStoner]

 

Who encourages that? :confused:

 

I don't know anyone who tells their dds that they should be nice and meek if a boy gets too pushy. When I was growing up, none of my friends had that attitude, either.

 

Sure, there's the attitude that girls should be attractive and sexy, but that's nothing new. I really think the idea that girls are actively encouraged to be sweet, meek, submissive little bimbos is incredibly overblown. From what I've seen with my friends' dds, the girls seem to be the ones who are manipulating and controlling the boys, not the other way around. If they're having sex, the girls are just as likely to be initiating it as the boys, if not more so.

 

 

I am glad you don't see it because it means you have not experienced it. I wish no on did. However, just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have mentored fellow rape survivors. Believe me, we had all experienced it and there are a heck of a lot more rape survivors in the US than there should be. If I had nickel for every time I was insulted for telling a handsy or verbally aggressive and suggestive dude to leave me or another woman alone, I would be set with cupcakes for life. Just look at how much room men take up in shared space like a bus vs. young women. And know that most of the time when a woman is harassed in public, no one steps up to tell the aggressor to step off.

[Forget-Me-Not]

 

 

I would like that for my girls as well. A healthy self-worth and maturity will come from the support and guidance they receive from you and others in their circle of influence, not from messages sent by their underpinnings.

 

 

I agree :). But I also do think that undies with the aforementioned messages or pants with "Pink" or "Juicy" written across the back-end feed into that whole idea that at least some (or all) of a girl's value lies in men being sexually attracted to her.

[Firefly]

Well, it's been said already in the thread, but I'll say it again-- it's not that girls are receiving some kind of subliminal message from their underwear. It's indicative of a much larger problem of girls self-image and feelings of self-worth.