Looking for some input... (cc)

[LittleIzumi]

Sinners intend to discontinue a sin and end up repeating it endlessly ALL THE TIME. Have you never had something that you wanted to stop doing but just kept falling into the same behavior pattern?

 

I see nothing in scripture to suggest that Christ forgives the unrepentant.

 

But we're not Christ. We are supposed to forgive ALL MEN, and leave the final judgement to Christ.

[K&Rs Mom]

Sinners intend to discontinue a sin and end up repeating it endlessly ALL THE TIME. Have you never had something that you wanted to stop doing but just kept falling into the same behavior pattern?

 

I see nothing in scripture to suggest that Christ forgives the unrepentant.

 

He doesn't have to. I do have to. He's better than me - no question. If I hope to be forgiven, I have to do some forgiving myself (that's in the Bible somewhere ;) ). Waiting for someone to be repentant holds me back from the part of it that I can control. And what if they are repentant but I don't know it for some reason?

 

Yes, I do repeat the same sins - sometimes against my "wishes" and sometimes I'm fine with it because I don't realize it's a sin or because I think it's "not that bad" or any of the other rationalizations that go along with being a fallen human. I'm glad that the people around me continue to forgive all of those things, the ones I repent of and the ones I haven't yet.

 

Back to the topic, Person A can forgive the adult-child's choices without condoning or accepting them. That kind of loving example may someday be enough to show adult-child the love of God that she can't see clearly right now. Leaving adult-child out there in the world with only the examples of other people making the same choices, doesn't help her.

[Jerico]

I didn't read through every post sorry. Here is my 2 cents. My sister is in a similar situation. she has recently broken up with her partner... but right before last christmas told my parents her and her g/f were coming to visit. My parents passed this info along to us 2 weeks before Christmas since we were also going to be there (we live in the same city as my parents). We talked with my sister. We reminded her that we love her but disagree with her lifestyle (she is not a believer). We told her that if there were any signs of anything more than them just being pals then we were leaving and not coming back. She agreed to this and all went well. I do disagree with how my parents deal with it for the most part. My situation is a bit different because I am not the parent and it isn't my house. That is a bit trickier to me.

[mommy5]

Of course it has. People like to say that "we're all sinners and need to accept each other", but that isn't what is happening here. This is the active embrace of a sinful lifestyle. Take the homosexuality aspect out and substitute something else....professional jewel thief, serial killer, abortionist...would people openly and happily embracing those things be welcome happily at the dinner table?

 

BTW, as a Catholic, I do not embrace the concept that all sin is equally sinful. We have the concepts of mortal and venial sin, which goes something like this:

 

A mortal sin cuts off our relationship with God. In order for a sin to be mortal it must meet three conditions:

 

1. Must be serious/grave matter (so stealing a pencil will never be a mortal sin)

2. We must have knowledge that it is sinful and grave (so you cannot accidentally commit a mortal sin)

3. We must, of our own free will, choose to do it even though we know it's sinful and grave

 

All sins that are not mortal are venial, that is sins which damage (to whatever degree) but do not cut off our relationship with God.

 

And just for clarity's sake, even when we cut off our relationship with God through a mortal sin, does not mean that the relationship is irreparable. It means that WE have walked away. God is always willing to take us back. There are no unforgivable sins, only unrepentant sinners.

 

I just wanted to say that I'm not Catholic and hadn't realized that Catholics believe that ... but this is something I've struggled to understand for a while. Interesting ... thanks for sharing.

Does that idea come from 1 John? 16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

To the OP: I'm not sure what I think of this ... I think it would be a very difficult place to be. I don't think there is an easy answer because on one hand I wouldn't want to risk my relationship with my child but on the other hand would not want my younger children to view the sinful choices of the older sibling as ok. I really don't have anything to add -- but I do think it is a difficult spot to be in. :grouphug:

[justamouse]

There is so much pain in this for my family, even with the two main people gone, that I would hate to see that for you and your children.

 

I am so, so sorry.

 

Bethany, also, -I'm going to take the RCC stance here in that they are BORN this way. When we draw a line in the sand, we're saying, "chose this, or me." In some cases that line works--chose alcohol/drugs or me-- chose the mistress or me--those are big obvious ways it can work. But when a person is born that way, they can't be anything other than what they are, and so when we say chose the partner or the family, we are setting them up for failure and pain.

 

(it is also Catholic teaching that to ACT on the sin is to commit it, not to BE homosexual, that is not the sin. Now, since she's not even a Christian, it's not something she would be struggling with)

Edited October 12, 2012 by justamouse

[SunnyDays]

Bethany... :grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry for the situation. I have no real advice, as others have already said what I might have. I can only imagine how difficult it is to sort this out.

 

A verse that sprang to mind is 1 Peter 4:8... And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.” I suppose that would apply not only to Person A affirming love for the daughter, but also for others extending love to Person A as he comes to terms with this. :grouphug:

[*********]

Bethany... :grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry for the situation. I have no real advice, as others have already said what I might have. I can only imagine how difficult it is to sort this out.

 

A verse that sprang to mind is 1 Peter 4:8... And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.†I suppose that would apply not only to Person A affirming love for the daughter, but also for others extending love to Person A as he comes to terms with this. :grouphug:

 

Amen to that.

[mommy5]

I am so, so sorry.

 

Bethany, also, -I'm going to take the RCC stance here in that they are BORN this way. When we draw a line in the sand, we're saying, "chose this, or me." In some cases that line works--chose alcohol/drugs or me-- chose the mistress or me--those are big obvious ways it can work. But when a person is born that way, they can't be anything other than what they are, and so when we say chose the partner or the family, we are setting them up for failure and pain.

 

(it is also Catholic teaching that to ACT on the sin is to commit it, not to BE homosexual, that is not the sin. Now, since she's not even a Christian, it's not something she would be struggling with)

 

I hope this doesn't come across wrong but I would like to address this ...

 

I'm not sure I agree with this point about being "born this way". Are we not all born as sinful beings? We are born with tendencies toward specific sins. For instance the "choose alcohol or choose me" reference ... what if that person is an alcoholic? From personal experience I have seen (in my own life and in my extended family) where people are either born with specific temperaments/personalities that give way to a multitude of sins that others wouldn't and don't suffer through and from because they don't have that same weakness but they do have other problem areas (some less obvious than others ...). Others come into sin because of their background/childhood and that leads them into other problems ... we can name 100 different reasons for 100 different sins ... I feel like saying "born this way" is an excuse for the sin itself. Either it is a sin or it isn't.

I'm sorry to get off topic ...

Edited October 12, 2012 by mommy5

[Galatea]

Forgiveness is for those who are repentant. Not for those who are not sorry and have every intention of continuing on.

 

And where in the Bible does it say to forgive only when someone asks you to? Or to treat anyone who does anything you don't like badly?

 

Really, did you need to say something like that? And people wonder why they're not liked.

 

Thank you so much for pointing out to me that you think my brother, who is dead, is not forgiven. So loving of you.

[caroljenn]

I have a friend that has this problem and it broke up her marriage. Her husband refused to allow the son to even enter the house, much less bring his "friend" over. My friend refused to abandon her son and always wanted him to be welcome and included. My friend just left her husband and they are getting divorced.

 

Because of this situation, my husband and I had a discussion about what we would do. We both agreed that we would never abandon our child and make sure that he/she knew that they were welcome at home. If there was a long term relationship that they were in, that person would be welcomed as well. BUT- there would be no show of affection, no PDAs, no talk of the relationship, etc. and our child would be told that we do not agree with the lifestyle choice, but we are all sinners and we will always love him/her.

 

If the younger siblings are quite young, nothing needs to be said. I don't think I would say anything unless I was specifically asked by an older child what was going on. Then the explanation would include showing love and mercy to others and we all sin in different ways, with a clear explanation of our disapproval of the situation.

[TammyS]

Thank you so much for pointing out to me that you think my brother, who is dead, is not forgiven. So loving of you.

 

:001_rolleyes: Bringing something up and then making it "untouchable because of my deep emotional pain" is really safe way to say whatever you want without having to deal with anyone else directly, isn't it? Next time, just post it as JAWM.

 

BTW, nothing that you wrote suggests that his parents treated him badly. They didn't accept his choice and they didn't accept his boyfriend. He was still allowed to come over and was not shunned from the family. That's hardly being treated badly.

[justamouse]

I hope this doesn't come across wrong but I would like to address this ...

 

I'm not sure I agree with this point about being "born this way". Are we not all born as sinful beings? We are born with tendencies toward specific sins. For instance the "choose alcohol or choose me" reference ... what if that person is an alcoholic? From personal experience I have seen (in my own life and in my extended family) where people are either born with specific temperaments/personalities that give way to a multitude of sins that others wouldn't and don't suffer through and from because they don't have that same weakness but they do have other problem areas (some less obvious than others ...). Others come into sin because of their background/childhood and that leads them into other problems ... we can name 100 different reasons for 100 different sins ... I feel like saying "born this way" is an excuse for the sin itself. Either it is a sin or it isn't.

I'm sorry to get off topic ...

 

I disagree.

 

 

People are born with a propensity to lie--but they only sin if they act upon it. People are born with a propensity to addiction--but they only sin if they act on it.

 

It's not an excuse, it's understanding how a person can have self control, DESPITE wanting to do something damaging to themselves.

 

 

 

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

 

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

Edited October 12, 2012 by justamouse

[mommy5]

I disagree.

 

 

People are born with a propensity to lie--but they only sin if they act upon it. People are born with a propensity to addiction--but they only sin if they act on it.

 

It's not an excuse, it's understanding how a person can have self control, DESPITE wanting to do something damaging to themselves.

 

 

 

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

 

 

I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that it is only a sin if you act on it, too. I just feel that it is an excuse to say we are born that way and still be in sin (if that makes sense).

[deacongirl]

And where in the Bible does it say to forgive only when someone asks you to? Or to treat anyone who does anything you don't like badly?

 

Really, did you need to say something like that? And people wonder why they're not liked.

 

Thank you so much for pointing out to me that you think my brother, who is dead, is not forgiven. So loving of you.

:grouphug:

[deacongirl]

:001_rolleyes: Bringing something up and then making it "untouchable because of my deep emotional pain" is really safe way to say whatever you want without having to deal with anyone else directly, isn't it? Next time, just post it as JAWM.

 

BTW, nothing that you wrote suggests that his parents treated him badly. They didn't accept his choice and they didn't accept his boyfriend. He was still allowed to come over and was not shunned from the family. That's hardly being treated badly.

 

The absence of compassion and love in this just absolutely floors me. Unbelievable. And that smilie? Are you kidding me?

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, I disagree with the entire premise so strongly that I left the faith.

I just don't understand that reasoning. I might leave churches and stop associating with people who think this way/do this... but Jesus, I will never leave him, especially since He tells me that He does not condone judgmental, legalistic, unloving or hypocrytical behavior. Since Christian = belonging to Christ I will still use that label.

 

Just like it makes no sense that my parents and brother shun me for worshiping Him. What is so wrong with Jesus that they shun me for loving Him?

 

There are also so many churches/ denominations that do not believe this way. I started to get upset reading some of the replies, and then another Christian will respond in a loving way and share their view and I am so glad to know that not all Christians are like that.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you so much for pointing out to me that you think my brother, who is dead, is not forgiven. So loving of you.

:grouphug::grouphug: Not only can we not judge, but Luke chapter 12 Jesus speaks of 4 slaves with 4 degrees of reward and punishment. Its funny how people never seem to notice that.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

3minutes

[Galatea]

:001_rolleyes: Bringing something up and then making it "untouchable because of my deep emotional pain" is really safe way to say whatever you want without having to deal with anyone else directly, isn't it? Next time, just post it as JAWM.

 

BTW, nothing that you wrote suggests that his parents treated him badly. They didn't accept his choice and they didn't accept his boyfriend. He was still allowed to come over and was not shunned from the family. That's hardly being treated badly.

 

He was treated badly, he was not allowed to come to my parents' house or to see our younger siblings when my parents were in a disappointed or angry phase. I said that in my post.

 

Thank you for making fun of my and my family's actual emotional pain. I did not say people couldn't comment on it, but do you really think your comments are in any way helpful, to me or the OP? And rolling your eyes? For heaven sake, what is wrong with you? Are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church? Because that is what you sound like.

 

I really hope that you don't profess as a Christian, because you do not act like one in any way. If that gets me banned, so be it.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Galatea

[hana]

I VERY much agree with you here.

 

However, Person A would argue that they are not welcoming adult child's partner into their home because adult child is OPENLY, HAPPILY embracing their sin.

 

This is not a person who is struggling with sin; like all of us do. This is not a situation where a person is convicted, mourning, repenting of their sin.

 

This is a situation where the adult child is openly, happily, even defiantly engaging in sin. Adult child currently has NO plans to repent of their homos#xuality, to repent, to strive to live according to the word of God.

 

That's what makes this situation so hard. If said adult child were openly, happily engaging in another sin; for example fornication, stealing, ilicit drug use; Person A would not allow the sin in their home, either.

 

I don't meet your qualifications to respond, but I just want to say that you and person A cannot know fully what is in this person's heart. A lot of LGBT youth put on a brave/defiant front because it is the only way they can face the world.

[Lovedtodeath]

There is an order of things. To try to meet God's Law when you aren't saved and don't have His spirit... What good does that do?

 

To be introduced to a loving God who will do anything for you even when you are in your sin... to get to know his great mercy and love...

 

well that might motivate me to stop sinning... but even then I can't... not until I am Born Again and He helps me, and sometimes not even then.

 

Titus 3:1-7; Romans 7 and 8

[mom4him]

Ok, first off, I need answers from those who identify as Christian AND who believe:

 

That fornication (s#x before marriage) is a sin.

 

That living/embracing a homos#xual lifestyle is a sin.

 

Please, I'm begging you. I'm not trying to debate these things. I fully understand there are those on this board that DO NOT agree with the above two statements. But I really DON'T feel like debating that right now. :tongue_smilie: I just need some advice input from people who DO agree with those two statements. PLEASE start another thead if you'd like to debate. :001_smile:

 

Ok.

 

There is someone in my life who has taken the following stand, and I don't know yet how I feel about it.

 

Person A says that their adult female child is not welcome to bring their girlfriend to Person A's home. (Said adult female child is openly homos#xual, and Person A has been introduced to adult female child's girlfriend.) Person A has explained their position on NOT welcoming adult child's girlfriend as the following:

 

"If adult child was openly fornicating/living with a boy, I wouldn't allow that boy in my house, either."

 

Person A has young children at home that are being taught that both homos#xuality and fornication are sins.

 

How do you feel, *as a Christian who also believes homos#xuality and fornication are sins*, about Person A's position of not welcoming the adult child's girlfriend into their home?

 

Two more bits of info that I think are relevant:

 

Adult child's young siblings who live at home do NOT know that adult child is openly homos#xual. They have breifly met adult child's girlfriend ONCE, and she was introduced as 'This is Sissy's friend'.

 

Also, neither adult female child NOR her girlfriend identify as Christians. This matters to me because I believe that it is not the place of a Christian to hold a NON Christian to THIER Christian beliefs. I hope that made sense. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about Person A's position. Honestly, it initially caught me off guard. And while I still don't feel comfortable with Person A's position, it is my, uh, *place*, if you will, to support Person A in their decision not to welcome adult child's girlfriend into their home.

 

Ugh. Yes, I realize many of you are able to read between the lines and figure out what I'm talking about. PLEASE, I need/want honest feedback; but help me follow board rules by NOT bashing. PLEASE.

 

Also feel free to PM me if you'd rather.

 

Bethany, I believe that sin is sin and yes these two areas according to the word are sin, along with excess drinking, eating, doing anything that defiles the body(consumning many unhealthy foods), not loving your neighbor or brother, etc.

 

I have to ask if this person that is making this stand would reject said child if the person they cared about was over weight? or smoked? or consumned pop regularly? In my thinking they are all the same in the eyes of God.

 

My oldest dd lived with her boyfriend for 2 yrs before they got married. I talked to her, she knew, but I never refused relationship with her nor her boyfriend. The only stipulation I put on it was that they could not spend the night in my home. I too have two young children.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't meet your qualifications to respond, but I just want to say that you and person A cannot know fully what is in this person's heart. A lot of LGBT youth put on a brave/defiant front because it is the only way they can face the world.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[SnowWhite]

I scanned the thread really quickly, so hopefully I did not miss where anybody already posted this link:

 

http://headhearthand.org/blog/2012/08/08/what-letter-would-you-write-to-a-gay-son/

 

This blog post really spoke to my heart about relationships with family members who do not share my values. Hope it helps! It addresses exactly the situation you describe and then some.

[deacongirl]

He was treated badly, he was not allowed to come to my parents' house or to see our younger siblings when my parents were in a disappointed or angry phase. I said that in my post.

 

Thank you for making fun of my and my family's actual emotional pain. I did not say people couldn't comment on it, but do you really think your comments are in any way helpful, to me or the OP? And rolling your eyes? For heaven sake, what is wrong with you? Are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church? Because that is what you sound like.

 

I really hope that you don't profess as a Christian, because you do not act like one in any way. If that gets me banned, so be it.

 

To Galatea,

I think that your experience was exactly relevant and exactly the kind of thing that the OP and surely others reading this thread who are or will be in similar situations needed to read. I am sure that it will have an impact on how parents choose to deal with this issue. Thank you for taking the time to share it and again, I am sorry for your loss.

[Galatea]

To Galatea,

I think that your experience was exactly relevant and exactly the kind of thing that the OP and surely others reading this thread who are or will be in similar situations needed to read. I am sure that it will have an impact on how parents choose to deal with this issue. Thank you for taking the time to share it and again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

Thank you. I really appreciate the support from you and the others who have given it.

 

It has been 15 years since my brother died, but it is still painful for me because we were very close. I would not have shared except that my situation seems very close to the OP's.

[Lovedtodeath]

I scanned the thread really quickly, so hopefully I did not miss where anybody already posted this link:

 

http://headhearthand.org/blog/2012/08/08/what-letter-would-you-write-to-a-gay-son/

 

This blog post really spoke to my heart about relationships with family members who do not share my values. Hope it helps! It addresses exactly the situation you describe and then some.

Oh I love this letter! Thank you for sharing.

[justLisa]

To Galatea,

I think that your experience was exactly relevant and exactly the kind of thing that the OP and surely others reading this thread who are or will be in similar situations needed to read. I am sure that it will have an impact on how parents choose to deal with this issue. Thank you for taking the time to share it and again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

Yes. I'm sure no one wanted to hear my post, but really. I would *love* for all of you Christians to understand what "outsiders" think of your God and religion. Your words and actions *ARE* witness. This is someone who used to believe it. I sang in church. I thought He lived in me. I sobbed during worship. I witnessed to people. I tried to live the perfect example. I could go on and on. I was horribly hurt in the church. More than once.

 

And yes I do believe one can have enough of the faith to leave it based on people. Think about it. If you loved something more than anything. Thought you'd die without it, and every single person related to such thing was exactly what you DO NOT want to be. An example of hate, hypocricy, and of unacceptance of anyone not exactly like them, you would probably be turned off to that thing.

 

Sadly, when I think of Christians I think of the non denominational holy rolling Jesus freaks who **** everyone to hell. And then the Catholics. :lol: Ok I don't mean to laugh but trust me when I say I was brought up in church. Then I left. Thought you all were nuts. Then I met my inlaws who are from Europe and devout Catholics. Holy freaking moly. They are the kindest most excepting and tender loving people I have *ever* met. They alone make me want to go walk that loooooong and dusty road again. But then I read more and talk to more Christians and then I think no way no how.

 

There are many Christians on this board are so respectful. I've even made a few friends, I think. But I can absolutely not wrap my head around casting someone aside because they are not Christian, or do not live as you do. Sure we want to keep behaviours away from our kids not able to understand yet. But you know what? Kids don't see those "sins." They don't see them until we tell them. If we could just see the world through the eyes of a child....

 

I don't want to piss anyone off but really.

[Ipsey]

Yes. I'm sure no one wanted to hear my post, but really. I would *love* for all of you Christians to understand what "outsiders" think of your God and religion. Your words and actions *ARE* witness. This is someone who used to believe it. I sang in church. I thought He lived in me. I sobbed during worship. I witnessed to people. I tried to live the perfect example. I could go on and on. I was horribly hurt in the church. More than once.

 

And yes I do believe one can have enough of the faith to leave it based on people. Think about it. If you loved something more than anything. Thought you'd die without it, and every single person related to such thing was exactly what you DO NOT want to be. An example of hate, hypocricy, and of unacceptance of anyone not exactly like them, you would probably be turned off to that thing.

 

Sadly, when I think of Christians I think of the non denominational holy rolling Jesus freaks who **** everyone to hell. And then the Catholics. :lol: Ok I don't mean to laugh but trust me when I say I was brought up in church. Then I left. Thought you all were nuts. Then I met my inlaws who are from Europe and devout Catholics. Holy freaking moly. They are the kindest most excepting and tender loving people I have *ever* met. They alone make me want to go walk that loooooong and dusty road again. But then I read more and talk to more Christians and then I think no way no how.

 

There are many Christians on this board are so respectful. I've even made a few friends, I think. But I can absolutely not wrap my head around casting someone aside because they are not Christian, or do not live as you do. Sure we want to keep behaviours away from our kids not able to understand yet. But you know what? Kids don't see those "sins." They don't see them until we tell them. If we could just see the world through the eyes of a child....

 

I don't want to piss anyone off but really.

 

:grouphug:

 

I didn't leave because of people, but I grieve for your pain and I understand what it is like to lose faith and to view it from the outside--and then to be hurt and baffled by the whole thing.

*hug to you*

[mommy5]

Yes. I'm sure no one wanted to hear my post, but really. I would *love* for all of you Christians to understand what "outsiders" think of your God and religion. Your words and actions *ARE* witness. This is someone who used to believe it. I sang in church. I thought He lived in me. I sobbed during worship. I witnessed to people. I tried to live the perfect example. I could go on and on. I was horribly hurt in the church. More than once.

 

And yes I do believe one can have enough of the faith to leave it based on people. Think about it. If you loved something more than anything. Thought you'd die without it, and every single person related to such thing was exactly what you DO NOT want to be. An example of hate, hypocricy, and of unacceptance of anyone not exactly like them, you would probably be turned off to that thing.

 

Sadly, when I think of Christians I think of the non denominational holy rolling Jesus freaks who **** everyone to hell. And then the Catholics. :lol: Ok I don't mean to laugh but trust me when I say I was brought up in church. Then I left. Thought you all were nuts. Then I met my inlaws who are from Europe and devout Catholics. Holy freaking moly. They are the kindest most excepting and tender loving people I have *ever* met. They alone make me want to go walk that loooooong and dusty road again. But then I read more and talk to more Christians and then I think no way no how.

 

There are many Christians on this board are so respectful. I've even made a few friends, I think. But I can absolutely not wrap my head around casting someone aside because they are not Christian, or do not live as you do. Sure we want to keep behaviours away from our kids not able to understand yet. But you know what? Kids don't see those "sins." They don't see them until we tell them. If we could just see the world through the eyes of a child....

 

I don't want to piss anyone off but really.

 

:grouphug: I'm sorry you had to go through that. I was there once in a similar type of situation. I didn't lose my faith in God ... only the people that went to church. I did feel at one point that church was pointless because of how people treated each other. I eventually came back to (a different) church despite having seen a lot of sin from within and realizing that not everyone who says they are a Christian really is. Jesus says you will know them by their fruit. Matthew 7:15-27

[Catwoman]

To Galatea,

I think that your experience was exactly relevant and exactly the kind of thing that the OP and surely others reading this thread who are or will be in similar situations needed to read. I am sure that it will have an impact on how parents choose to deal with this issue. Thank you for taking the time to share it and again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

:iagree:

 

This post is intended for Beverly (Galatea) ONLY, so I hope no one will quote this and tell me I'm wrong and that it's evil to be gay and if gay people don't all repent, they'll go straight to h*ll. I don't believe that to be the case, but I also already know that many people here will disagree with my opinions, and that's fine. I don't judge anyone for their beliefs in these matters, because I figure it's not my place to judge, and I hope others won't judge me for my beliefs, or feel the need to quote Bible verses to prove to me that I'm wrong. Anyway, I just don't want to argue about it, as this is Bethany's thread and I don't want it to be derailed with a big debate where feelings will be hurt and no one will change their opinion in the end, anyway.

 

I just felt so badly about a few comments that were made about Beverly's brother that I needed to post about it, so she knows that many of us are very sorry to hear about her brother and his untimely passing. It's horrible that he got sick and passed away so very quickly, and at such an incredibly young age. :(

 

Beverly, I'm so sorry about your brother, and I'm sure your parents never got over their guilt for having rejected him, although for their sake, I hope they were able to find peace. When he told them he was gay, he was still the same son and brother that had always been an important and much-loved part of your family, so I am always amazed when anyone can reject someone for simply being the way they were born to be. I'm so sorry that things couldn't have been different between your brother and your parents, so that he could have continued to be an active member of your family in the years before he passed away. It sounds like he was a really great guy. :grouphug:

Edited October 13, 2012 by Catwoman

[Pamela H in Texas]

Bethany,

 

I do believe both fornication and acting upon homosexual feelings are sins.

 

However, maybe it would be helpful to consider it as another sin in order to "work" with it better? Smoking is a good one for us. I consider it a sin and teach my children it is a sin. However, we wouldn't refuse to host with a family member who smoked. We would just ask that they be respectful (though honestly, I'd just assume they would be anyway). So, I would expect a family member not to smoke in the house or car with my child there, reasonably, right? So how does it relate? I guess I would see calling the partner "sissy's friend" (which I assume is also true) as a similar concession.

 

I know I'm really late to this party :) , hope my answer is any help at all.

 

ETA: *I* would simply tell my children (in age appropriate ways at a time I deem appropriate). I think that there is a lesson that can be learned from knowing the truth also. I think that hiding the facts can be problematic (or at least confusing) down the road. So I'd tell my kids the truth about "sissy's friend" the same as I would about my losing my temper or grandpa smoking or whatever other sinful situation they'll be exposed to or be party to.

 

Another example: We have family members who drink too much on occasion.

My big kids grew up knowing that. However, certain times were still spent with these people.

 

ETA (again): Of course, you may not be able to convince Person A. I think, from reading another post of yours, that you are doing a great balancing act.

Edited October 13, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[justamouse]

I think we are saying the same thing. I agree that it is only a sin if you act on it, too. I just feel that it is an excuse to say we are born that way and still be in sin (if that makes sense).

 

I still disagree, then.

 

The Catechism talks about unintentional ignorance--of which many of us are afflicted. The poor girl needs to be left alone and just loved.

 

Walking out a Christian journey takes a lifetime. We don't 'get saved' and arrive--it's a process of constant turning toward God once we are able to see our own sin (some of which we may never have the awareness to see).

 

To treat this girl as if she is worse than any of us is self delusion and pride on our part.

[SunnyDays]

There are many Christians on this board are so respectful. I've even made a few friends, I think. But I can absolutely not wrap my head around casting someone aside because they are not Christian, or do not live as you do. Sure we want to keep behaviours away from our kids not able to understand yet. But you know what? Kids don't see those "sins." They don't see them until we tell them. If we could just see the world through the eyes of a child....

 

 

Yes, you've made friends here. :grouphug: I'm sorry you had such a bad experience you ended up leaving the church entirely. It makes me sad... I simply don't think we help anyone in their spiritual walk by outright condemnation.

 

I just felt so badly about a few comments that were made about Beverly's brother that I needed to post about it, so she knows that many of us are very sorry to hear about her brother and his untimely passing. It's horrible that he got sick and passed away so very quickly, and at such an incredibly young age. :(

 

 

As I've said many times before, I want to be Cat when I grow up. :)

 

Beverly, I am also very sorry about your brother. I know your parents handled it they way they thought was right at the time, but you simply can't get those years of family conflict back. I'm sure you miss him terribly. :grouphug:

 

Bethany, I hope you know we're all here for you... I've been thinking about you today and I just really hope your family is able to work this out. :grouphug:

[justLisa]

Yes, you've made friends here. :grouphug: I'm sorry you had such a bad experience you ended up leaving the church entirely. It makes me sad... I simply don't think we help anyone in their spiritual walk by outright condemnation.

 

 

 

 

 

Geesh thank you for you words. I think I am going to not ever look back in to this thread again and think about some things. I recently, through some making of friends here, acquired a bible that I have been reading. I am going to go hide in my hermit status for a while.

[IsabelC]

Sorry you are in this difficulty.

 

If I'm reading between the lines correctly, you don't really have the option of countermanding Person A's stance on this. All you can do is respectfully state your opinion, right? So the reaction is going to depend on why he's decided to do this. It's not just keeping sinners out of the house, because if that were the case then the house would be permanently empty, wouldn't it? So is it unwillingness to accept that daughter has 'made the wrong choice'? Or fear of this 'choice' being modeled to the younger children? Or something else?

[Catwoman]

I don't think it would make a bit of difference if Bethany pointed out to Person A that he's being a hypocrite by allowing people who commit other sins into their home, because I don't think that will matter a bit.

 

This is about his dd who is living a lifestyle that he opposes for moral and religious reasons. It has nothing to do with wanting to banish all sinners from their home.

 

This isn't about people who overeat or gossip; this is about one person -- his dd -- and the way she is living her life.

 

Although I completely disagree with his stance on this issue, I don't think we should judge him, because it sounds like he and his dd love each other very much, and that he's really struggling with this issue, even 2 years after finding out that his dd is a lesbian. If he didn't love her and want their relationship to continue, he wouldn't still be worried about it after 2 years. He would have banned her from the house and that would have been the end of it. He hasn't done that. He's worried about what to do about the girlfriend, and about what effect the knowledge of his dd's lifestyle will have on the younger children in the family. (Again, these things wouldn't worry me, but this thread isn't about how I'd feel.)

 

Ultimately, I think time is the only thing that will help. He's not at a point where he's ready to accept his dd's lifestyle, but perhaps he will soften his stance in time.

 

Again, I would be handling the whole situation entirely differently, but I respect Bethany and Person A's beliefs, and am trying to respond to this thread with their feelings in mind.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Catwoman

[RanchGirl]

.

Edited October 13, 2012 by RanchGirl

[raceNzanesmom]

That would be so hard, especially if the siblings were much younger.

 

However, I feel that part of my mission as a Christian is to show Christ's love to EVERYONE. We all sin. All sins are against God, not us. No sin is a small sin. How can I claim that, and still treat the sin of someone else differently than I treat my own sin?

 

I would make it clear that my beliefs are that their lifestyle is sinful. (just as I would if my adult child was blatantly committing any other sin) But I would not stop loving them or welcoming them into my home. I would ask that they not be openly affectionate with one another in my home or in front of my younger kids (just like I would ask them not to lie, steal, or any other sinful act) but they would be welcome here.

 

We have a lot of non-believing family and friends. Our house is open to them all, as long as they respect our house rules. (and they aren't hard rules...lol.) I cannot imagine not extending that grace to my own child.

 

I have not been in either situation, but I think I agree with the above. They would be welcome in my home, but open affection or overnight stays together would not be allowed. If they broke those rules, then I'd ask them to leave. This would all be discussed ahead of time.

[AimeeM]

I'm firmly of the camp that while I may not personally agree with something, I am in no position to require of others any degree of perfection.

 

I'm also of the camp that a sin is a sin and that all sins (committed with a level of understanding) are "equal" in severity. Since I'm not Jesus and I'm not without sin myself, I have absolutely no room to judge others.

Since I'm not raising my children under a rock, they know about homosexuality. Since I've always raised my children that we are kind and accepting of all things peaceful and voluntary, that infringe upon the rights of no other person, regardless of my own personal feelings, I would never turn away a person from my door just because of their perceived "sin".

[TXBeth]

Okay, I think Bethany has gotten some great advice, and I really hope you and Person A are able, through prayer, to come to agreement. I pray that whatever he decides, it will be just what is needed to show your SDD God's love and grace.

But something else is really sticking out to me in is thread, and that is the concept of forgiveness.

 

And where in the Bible does it say to forgive only when someone asks you to? Or to treat anyone who does anything you don't like badly?

 

The Bible does say that people who claim to be Christians but embrace sin are to be basically shunned "with such a person do not even eat," with the purpose of eventual reconciliation, but I think that is very different from ignoring someone because you are annoyed or angry. I'm sorry for what your family went through. :grouphug:

However, I have never seen in the Bible, either modeled by God or commanded for believers, forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is a necessary precursor to forgiveness.

 

But we're not Christ. We are supposed to forgive ALL MEN, and leave the final judgement to Christ.

 

I disagree. I have heard this attitude over and over again in the church, and what strikes me is how arrogant it is. I am supposed to forgive my brother who sins against me and repents. Forgiveness without repentance is not required (or even possible in my opinion, but that is another topic). But on the other hand, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can forgive sins that were not committed against us? If someone hurts me and then apologizes/repents, I can forgive them. But if someone hurts someone else, it is not my place to forgive them.

Especially, if someone has sinned only against God, I think it verges on blasphemy to say that I have the authority to forgive that sin, or to withhold forgiveness. I can encourage a repentant brother/sister and reassure them of Gods promise to forgive, but the forgiveness does not come from me.

[LittleIzumi]

 

The Bible does say that people who claim to be Christians but embrace sin are to be basically shunned "with such a person do not even eat," with the purpose of eventual reconciliation, but I think that is very different from ignoring someone because you are annoyed or angry. I'm sorry for what your family went through. :grouphug:

However, I have never seen in the Bible, either modeled by God or commanded for believers, forgiveness without repentance. Repentance is a necessary precursor to forgiveness.

 

 

 

I disagree. I have heard this attitude over and over again in the church, and what strikes me is how arrogant it is. I am supposed to forgive my brother who sins against me and repents. Forgiveness without repentance is not required (or even possible in my opinion, but that is another topic). But on the other hand, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can forgive sins that were not committed against us? If someone hurts me and then apologizes/repents, I can forgive them. But if someone hurts someone else, it is not my place to forgive them.

Especially, if someone has sinned only against God, I think it verges on blasphemy to say that I have the authority to forgive that sin, or to withhold forgiveness. I can encourage a repentant brother/sister and reassure them of Gods promise to forgive, but the forgiveness does not come from me.

 

:confused: Scriptures like Mark 11:25-26 don't say forgive only people who have repented. "If you hold hold anything against anyone, forgive him, So that your Father in Heaven may forgive your sins" (exact wording dependant upon translation). I'm not issuing God's forgiveness. I'm commanded to give mine, not to hold whatever transgression against the person until I am informed they have repented. You may not believe it yourself or interpret it that way, but it is quite scriptural to me.

[Joanne]

I just don't understand that reasoning. I might leave churches and stop associating with people who think this way/do this... but Jesus, I will never leave him, especially since He tells me that He does not condone judgmental, legalistic, unloving or hypocrytical behavior. Since Christian = belonging to Christ I will still use that label.

 

Just like it makes no sense that my parents and brother shun me for worshiping Him. What is so wrong with Jesus that they shun me for loving Him?

 

There are also so many churches/ denominations that do not believe this way. I started to get upset reading some of the replies, and then another Christian will respond in a loving way and share their view and I am so glad to know that not all Christians are like that.

 

There is a long list of reasons I left the faith. Jesus followers being part of it. The culture around sexuality, homosexuality, and sexual "sin" is part of it.

 

*You* stuck with Jesus as you understand him; I am glad if that works for you. But my leaving "the faith" over issues as just as valid as you not leaving.

[Joanne]

I hope this doesn't come across wrong but I would like to address this ...

 

I'm not sure I agree with this point about being "born this way". Are we not all born as sinful beings? We are born with tendencies toward specific sins. For instance the "choose alcohol or choose me" reference ... what if that person is an alcoholic? From personal experience I have seen (in my own life and in my extended family) where people are either born with specific temperaments/personalities that give way to a multitude of sins that others wouldn't and don't suffer through and from because they don't have that same weakness but they do have other problem areas (some less obvious than others ...). Others come into sin because of their background/childhood and that leads them into other problems ... we can name 100 different reasons for 100 different sins ... I feel like saying "born this way" is an excuse for the sin itself. Either it is a sin or it isn't.

I'm sorry to get off topic ...

 

Here's the deal when it comes to homosexuality and the "born this way" discussion with Christians.

 

To homosexuals (and those who don't hold an anti position, usually from a religious standpoint), being born homosexual is no different then being born heterosexual. Homosexuals are not born "with a propensity" any more than heterosexuals are born "with a propensity".

 

The gender people are attracted to is a part of them, a part of their core; not a potentiality of wrong that may be expressed.

 

Following those lines into "love the sinner, hate the sin" amounts to..........hate. Because you are hating a person's beingness, their core, their center.

 

Comparisons to alcoholism, or other mental illnessess or behavioral problems are not valid. Comparisons to addiction are usually flawed not only as a comparison but because the understanding of addiction is usually also flawed.

 

Conservative religious members frequently impose a culturally-conditioned, visceral, fear based reaction onto scriptures relating to "homosexuality". They often fail to account for the culture in which the scripture was written, the sexual realities of that culture and framing around homosexuality, genetic variety, women, children, .............. I could go on.

 

In any case, the whole "born this way" rabbit trail on the issue is pointless. Religious conservatives frame that differently than those who don't share the "acting homosexually is a sin" perspective.

 

A couple, of any consenting adult configuration, would be welcome in my home and in front of my kids with an appropriate for the setting level of PDA. This could include hand holding, arms around the back of each other while watching TV or talking. I think anything beyond a quick peck on the lips or cheek is 1) immature and 2) inappropriate for most public settings.

[Melissa in Australia]

coming from a religion that practiced shunning

You have my full sympathy. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:I know how hard shunning can be in a family.

[Donna]

I do not believe it is my place to judge someone else's lifestyle. Only God can judge them. I am pretty sure, even if I am not committing those particular sins, I have been guilty of committing others and need God's forgiveness just as much as anyone else.

 

I would never turn my back on my children. I have recently had my parents do this to me over something really stupid and I know I could never do it to any of mine. I would welcome both into my home as long as they follow a few simple rules such as separate sleeping quarters for the night , limited public displays of affection around young siblings, etc... (this goes whether they are male/female or female/female partners unmarried).

[susankenny]

In thinking about this post, it reminded me of something I read by Anne Rice the author. She gets it. It's not our's to stress about.

 

“In the moment of surrender, I let go of all the theological or social questions which had kept me from Him for countless years. I simply let them go. There was the sense, profound and wordless, that if He knew everything - I did not have to know everything, and that, in seeking to know everything, I'd been, all of my life, missing the entire point. No social paradox, no historic disaster, no hideous record of injustice or misery should keep me from Him. No question of Scriptural integrity, no torment over the fate of this or that atheist or gay friend, no worry for those condemned and ostracized by my church or any other church should stand between me and Him….I didn't have to know how He was going to save the unlettered and the unbaptized, or how He would redeem the conscientious heathen who had never spoken His name. I didn't have to know how my gay friends would find their way to Redemption or how my hardworking secular humanist friends could or would receive the power of His Saving Grace. I didn't have to know why good people suffered agony or died in pain. He knew. And it was his knowing that overwhelmed me…”

 

 

― Anne Rice, Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession

[*********]

Everyone, thank you so much for your input.

 

I *do* intend to submit to Person A's wishes regarding welcoming the partner into the home. No, I don't agree with it. Yes, I did gently express that to person A. However, I do not believe that submitting to Person A's feelings on that matter will CAUSE me to sin; therefore, I will submit. Thank you for those who have encouraged me to do so.

 

Some further clarification, for those who have asked/wondered...

 

Person A does put a lot of effort into their relationship with adult daughter. Adult daughter is welcome in Person A's home whenever they wish; they are even invited frequently. This is all regardless of the fact that adult daughter is well aware that Person A and I do not support the decisions adult daughter has made regarding their lifestyle. Also, adult daugther, from all appearances, feels loved by both Person A and I.

 

Person A and I are not shunning adult daughter. Not at all; we also have no intentions to EVER do that to ANY of our children.

 

It's simply that Person A is not comfortable welcoming adult child's partner into their home.

 

Honestly, I didn't get into WHY person A feels that way. Since I know Person A quite well, :D, I suspect I already know the answer to that. Which would be a combination of 'I don't want adult daughter and partner to flaunt their relationship in front of the young children' as WELL as, if Person A were to be quite honest, THEY themselves are uncomfortable with that fact that their little girl is a lesbian. Yes, I realize that's not *ideal*. But it *is*, and my role in Person A's life is to be understanding regarding that. NOT that I must feel the same way; but I need to have grace with Person A. None of us are perfect in our responses to every situation. My praryer is that Person A comes to a place, eventually, where he can welcome adult daughter's partner into their home. If that never happens however, there's not much I can do about it. I won't nag; I won't undermind. And like I said, I will submit to Person A's wishes regarding that, while continuing to love adult daugter as I love my own biological children.

 

The REASON I feel extra conflicted/torn about all of this is because of my OWN experience with MY parents as a young adult. You see, as soon as I moved out of my parent's home, I rejected all I was ever taught about how to live a moral, Christian life, and I turned away from Christ and the faith. I did many, many things of which I am now ashamed. However, while in that phase of my life, my parents DID shun me. They didn't love on me; they pushed me away. They didn't call, they didn't invite me over, they didn't want me around. It was all judgement, and no love. There was no 'Hey Bethany, you know we disapprove of your getting a tattoo/drinking/smoking/having a new boyfriend every month. We know you've walked away from Christ and the church, and that you no longer identify as a Christian. You know what the Bible says about that, and you know it's wrong. But we love you, we're always here for you. When are you coming over next? How's that college class going? What's new in your life? We miss you!' None of that. Just judgement, witholding of affection, cast out. It hurt. It still hurts.

 

(Please don't start a fight about what I said; no drinking in moderation is not wrong. No, getting a tattoo is not 'wrong' for EVERYONE. Just, that's what my parents believe, and that's how I was raised, ok? :tongue_smilie:)

 

I don't want that for adult child. I don't feel that's what we're called to do in Scripture. I love adult child so, so much. I want her to KNOW and FEEL that. I want her to understand that I am ALWAYS and FOREVER a safe place for her to fall.

 

Thank you ladies, for the support, for the advice, for the shared personal stories.

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, susankenny!:001_wub:

Everyone, thank you so much for your input.

 

I *do* intend to submit to Person A's wishes regarding welcoming the partner into the home. No, I don't agree with it. Yes, I did gently express that to person A. However, I do not believe that submitting to Person A's feelings on that matter will CAUSE me to sin; therefore, I will submit. Thank you for those who have encouraged me to do so.

 

Some further clarification, for those who have asked/wondered...

 

Person A does put a lot of effort into their relationship with adult daughter. Adult daughter is welcome in Person A's home whenever they wish; they are even invited frequently. This is all regardless of the fact that adult daughter is well aware that Person A and I do not support the decisions adult daughter has made regarding their lifestyle. Also, adult daugther, from all appearances, feels loved by both Person A and I.

 

Person A and I are not shunning adult daughter. Not at all; we also have no intentions to EVER do that to ANY of our children.

 

It's simply that Person A is not comfortable welcoming adult child's partner into their home.

 

Honestly, I didn't get into WHY person A feels that way. Since I know Person A quite well, :D, I suspect I already know the answer to that. Which would be a combination of 'I don't want adult daughter and partner to flaunt their relationship in front of the young children' as WELL as, if Person A were to be quite honest, THEY themselves are uncomfortable with that fact that their little girl is a lesbian. Yes, I realize that's not *ideal*. But it *is*, and my role in Person A's life is to be understanding regarding that. NOT that I must feel the same way; but I need to have grace with Person A. None of us are perfect in our responses to every situation. My praryer is that Person A comes to a place, eventually, where he can welcome adult daughter's partner into their home. If that never happens however, there's not much I can do about it. I won't nag; I won't undermind. And like I said, I will submit to Person A's wishes regarding that, while continuing to love adult daugter as I love my own biological children.

 

The REASON I feel extra conflicted/torn about all of this is because of my OWN experience with MY parents as a young adult. You see, as soon as I moved out of my parent's home, I rejected all I was ever taught about how to live a moral, Christian life, and I turned away from Christ and the faith. I did many, many things of which I am now ashamed. However, while in that phase of my life, my parents DID shun me. They didn't love on me; they pushed me away. They didn't call, they didn't invite me over, they didn't want me around. It was all judgement, and no love. There was no 'Hey Bethany, you know we disapprove of your getting a tattoo/drinking/smoking/having a new boyfriend every month. We know you've walked away from Christ and the church, and that you no longer identify as a Christian. You know what the Bible says about that, and you know it's wrong. But we love you, we're always here for you. When are you coming over next? How's that college class going? What's new in your life? We miss you!' None of that. Just judgement, witholding of affection, cast out. It hurt. It still hurts.

 

(Please don't start a fight about what I said; no drinking in moderation is not wrong. No, getting a tattoo is not 'wrong' for EVERYONE. Just, that's what my parents believe, and that's how I was raised, ok? :tongue_smilie:)

 

I don't want that for adult child. I don't feel that's what we're called to do in Scripture. I love adult child so, so much. I want her to KNOW and FEEL that. I want her to understand that I am ALWAYS and FOREVER a safe place for her to fall.

 

Thank you ladies, for the support, for the advice, for the shared personal stories.

TY for clarifying and sharing. I am very encouraged.

[8circles]

In thinking about this post, it reminded me of something I read by Anne Rice the author. She gets it. It's not our's to stress about.

 

“In the moment of surrender, I let go of all the theological or social questions which had kept me from Him for countless years. I simply let them go. There was the sense, profound and wordless, that if He knew everything - I did not have to know everything, and that, in seeking to know everything, I'd been, all of my life, missing the entire point. No social paradox, no historic disaster, no hideous record of injustice or misery should keep me from Him. No question of Scriptural integrity, no torment over the fate of this or that atheist or gay friend, no worry for those condemned and ostracized by my church or any other church should stand between me and Him….I didn't have to know how He was going to save the unlettered and the unbaptized, or how He would redeem the conscientious heathen who had never spoken His name. I didn't have to know how my gay friends would find their way to Redemption or how my hardworking secular humanist friends could or would receive the power of His Saving Grace. I didn't have to know why good people suffered agony or died in pain. He knew. And it was his knowing that overwhelmed me…â€

 

 

― Anne Rice, Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession

 

This is so gorgeously said.