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Bethany,:grouphug::grouphug: for working this out so carefully.

 

You're in a difficult position because the counsel and conviction YOU feel you've received from the Spirit is coming contrary to your position and conviction on submitting to your dh. In your situation, which trumps? The will of The Lord or the will of the husband? I think this is the real question you need to consider. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

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The difference though is that those who gossip and overeat would not ask you to embrace those vices as actual *good things*.

 

I really can not agree with that statement. I've been quite shocked at what some Christians are able to rationalize.

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That would be so hard, especially if the siblings were much younger.

 

However, I feel that part of my mission as a Christian is to show Christ's love to EVERYONE. We all sin. All sins are against God, not us. No sin is a small sin. How can I claim that, and still treat the sin of someone else differently than I treat my own sin?

 

I would make it clear that my beliefs are that their lifestyle is sinful. (just as I would if my adult child was blatantly committing any other sin) But I would not stop loving them or welcoming them into my home. I would ask that they not be openly affectionate with one another in my home or in front of my younger kids (just like I would ask them not to lie, steal, or any other sinful act) but they would be welcome here.

 

We have a lot of non-believing family and friends. Our house is open to them all, as long as they respect our house rules. (and they aren't hard rules...lol.) I cannot imagine not extending that grace to my own child.

:iagree:I do not want my kids around anyone that goes out of line with PDA, talks of dirty jokes, illegal drugs, spiritism, or other subjects without discretion or keeping in mind that I do not want my kids exposed to it, and I do my best to avoid them. This is no different. The homosexual person and their partner might or might not meet my standards of discretion.

 

I do not hide homosexuality from my kids or tell them that homosexuals are to be avoided. I had a discussion on the topic with my daughter just this week. We read the scriptures in the NT that mention homosexual acts and we discussed the other sins listed there including "fits of anger", that's why I need a savior. We all do. My children know that homosexual acts are a sin, and so are fits of anger. We do what we can to avoid both and we rely on God's forgiveness when we aren't quite able to yet.

Edited by Lovedtodeath
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Bethany,:grouphug::grouphug: for working this out so carefully.

 

You're in a difficult position because the counsel and conviction YOU feel you've received from the Spirit is coming contrary to your position and conviction on submitting to your dh. In your situation, which trumps? The will of The Lord or the will of the husband? I think this is the real question you need to consider. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Well I'd never go against Person A's wishes regarding not welcoming adult child's girlfriend in their home. That'd be wrong of me.

 

But yes, Person A and I are both struggling with showing love to adult child while holding to our convictions. It is hard.

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Bethany,:grouphug::grouphug: for working this out so carefully.

 

You're in a difficult position because the counsel and conviction YOU feel you've received from the Spirit is coming contrary to your position and conviction on submitting to your dh. In your situation, which trumps? The will of The Lord or the will of the husband? I think this is the real question you need to consider. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

I this case I pray that God gives my husband the same conviction he gave me... (which I am sure is not controversial)

 

and I carry on in my own commission to teach my children. (which probably is :D)

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I VERY much agree with you here.

 

However, Person A would argue that they are not welcoming adult child's partner into their home because adult child is OPENLY, HAPPILY embracing their sin.

 

This is not a person who is struggling with sin; like all of us do. This is not a situation where a person is convicted, mourning, repenting of their sin.

 

This is a situation where the adult child is openly, happily, even defiantly engaging in sin. Adult child currently has NO plans to repent of their homos#xuality, to repent, to strive to live according to the word of God.

 

That's what makes this situation so hard. If said adult child were openly, happily engaging in another sin; for example fornication, stealing, ilicit drug use; Person A would not allow the sin in their home, either.

 

FWIW, I haven't read the whole thread but wanted to interject on this concept because it often seems to come up in one way or another on justifying judgement of certain sins.

 

How about gluttony? Does Person A prohibit people who are obese from coming to the house unless they feel really bad about it and have a diet plan in place? There are a billion other sins that are open, obvious and wrong, but we overlook them or think they are not as bad because of one reason or another.

 

I can understand how this would be a really hard situation for you to be in. Sometimes these sorts of things also just need a little time to sort themselves out better. Intense feelings can soften over time, and people realize that issues aren't what they thought they were.

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Well I am not a Christian and I will not say what I believe about this, but I am wondering something.....and just to give you a different perspective. And if you don't want it just ignore.

 

Does this person living in sin claim to be a Christian? Because if so then I could see how not having your same beliefs about sin would be difficult and you would not want to accept that.

 

But if not, then what that is tell me is this does not want to have any sort of relationship with anyone who is not a Christian. That just does not seem right.

 

Maybe that is why Christian women do not consider themselves "friends" with me? Because I have known some nice Christian parents through kid's friends. But when they find out I do not attend church that about does it.

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That would be so hard, especially if the siblings were much younger.

 

However, I feel that part of my mission as a Christian is to show Christ's love to EVERYONE. We all sin. All sins are against God, not us. No sin is a small sin. How can I claim that, and still treat the sin of someone else differently than I treat my own sin?

 

I would make it clear that my beliefs are that their lifestyle is sinful. (just as I would if my adult child was blatantly committing any other sin) But I would not stop loving them or welcoming them into my home. I would ask that they not be openly affectionate with one another in my home or in front of my younger kids (just like I would ask them not to lie, steal, or any other sinful act) but they would be welcome here.

 

We have a lot of non-believing family and friends. Our house is open to them all, as long as they respect our house rules. (and they aren't hard rules...lol.) I cannot imagine not extending that grace to my own child.

 

:iagree:

 

Wendi

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:( This really worries me.

 

It's seriously true. Except those of the Catholic church. I don't quite get it.... and true story. I actually was part of a coop and a small group of ladies there freaking told me they were praying for me. And not in a nice way. I didn't need any prayer. They were praying for my salvation :glare:. They even asked me once if they could pray *over* me. It seriously freaked me out. That was the end of that.

 

Ok not to rob the thread. But seriously I hope people consider what "Christianity" looks like to the "outsiders."

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I don't fit the criteria you stated in the OP, but I used to. Back when I did, I remember reading advice to parents in a similar situation. The couple in question felt like they needed to behave like Person A, for similar reasons (younger children in the home, etc.).

 

The advice given was to think very carefully about what choice would keep the adult child closest to God. If all the Christians ban her from their homes, or ban her partner and make her feel unwelcome, how is that helping her feel the love of God or stay as close to him as possible?

 

I see Jesus encouraging us to consider our own sins. I don't see him encouraging us to monitor other people's sins or setting up criteria about who is pure enough for us to eat with. Quite the opposite.

 

:iagree: with the bolded, which also means that the action taken is likely different for every person and every situation. It's delicate and would take much prayer and thoughtful conversation.

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FWIW, I haven't read the whole thread but wanted to interject on this concept because it often seems to come up in one way or another on justifying judgement of certain sins.

 

How about gluttony? Does Person A prohibit people who are obese from coming to the house unless they feel really bad about it and have a diet plan in place? There are a billion other sins that are open, obvious and wrong, but we overlook them or think they are not as bad because of one reason or another.

 

I can understand how this would be a really hard situation for you to be in. Sometimes these sorts of things also just need a little time to sort themselves out better. Intense feelings can soften over time, and people realize that issues aren't what they thought they were.

 

Um. Well.

 

Ok. Gluttony is a real sin. Of which I have been guilty of, in the recent past. And Person A does not condone that, either. But Person A did not take to chastizing me about my glutttony. Rather, person A has come alongside me as the Lord has convicted me about my gluttony and Person A is my #1 cheerlearder in my new way of eating. Person A is very supportive and loving about it.

 

But that is neither here nor there, regarding my OP. :001_smile:

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I would ask person A: do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship?

 

Yes, person A and you have your religious convictions--- but we're talking about person A's child here. Our children need our acceptance at a basic level, regardless of our own religious convictions.

 

I'm not Christian, but this happened in my own family (who are mostly Christian). Grandparents removed one of their children from the will due to their perception that she was living a sinful life. They made a judgement of her, which I felt at the time (and really still feel) isn't what Christians are called to do.

 

They preferred to die "knowing" they were right. That was more important to them than to have a relationship with their daughter. It left that daughter wondering about grace, wondering about the Christian upbringing she had had. It was a very difficult thing for her to cope with.

 

I feel that we shine a light into this world, and draw people to us with love. If person A can get past the needing to be right due to their convictions, and try and show compassion, there is a good chance that there can be a decent relationship between the two.

 

Adult daughter most likely is well aware of how person A feels. She may not be asking person A to agree with her, but just to accept who she is.

 

Does person A want to be right or to have a relationship with their daughter; the same daughter who was a baby who needed diaper changes, a toddler who shouted 'no', a pre-teen who rolled her eyes, a teen who needed space... she is the *same* person she's always been. And she still needs to feel accepted and loved.

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Well, is the adult daughter claiming to be a Christian while living like this or not?

 

I think the answer to that question will determine how you relate to her, because it's vastly different.

 

I think it was previously mentioned she isn't a Christian, but I might have read that wrong.

 

Correct.

 

I stated in my OP that adult daughter does not claim to be a Christian.

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Well I am not a Christian and I will not say what I believe about this, but I am wondering something.....and just to give you a different perspective. And if you don't want it just ignore.

 

Does this person living in sin claim to be a Christian? Because if so then I could see how not having your same beliefs about sin would be difficult and you would not want to accept that.

 

But if not, then what that is tell me is this does not want to have any sort of relationship with anyone who is not a Christian. That just does not seem right.

 

Maybe that is why Christian women do not consider themselves "friends" with me? Because I have known some nice Christian parents through kid's friends. But when they find out I do not attend church that about does it.

There ARE some Christians that believe that they cannot have any kind of personal relationship with those that are not Christian. There are those that believe they can have a personal relationship with a non-Christian, but not with a Christian that believes differently than them. Then there are those of us that have had some very wonderful friends that are not Christians (and, sadly to say, some of those outnumber the Christian ones, because the relationship is not based upon faith or comparison thereof...just like some pastors' wives will intentionally keep their friendships to outside their own church). Like everything else, it can vary.

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That would be so hard, especially if the siblings were much younger.

 

However, I feel that part of my mission as a Christian is to show Christ's love to EVERYONE. We all sin. All sins are against God, not us. No sin is a small sin. How can I claim that, and still treat the sin of someone else differently than I treat my own sin?

 

I would make it clear that my beliefs are that their lifestyle is sinful. (just as I would if my adult child was blatantly committing any other sin) But I would not stop loving them or welcoming them into my home. I would ask that they not be openly affectionate with one another in my home or in front of my younger kids (just like I would ask them not to lie, steal, or any other sinful act) but they would be welcome here.

 

We have a lot of non-believing family and friends. Our house is open to them all, as long as they respect our house rules. (and they aren't hard rules...lol.) I cannot imagine not extending that grace to my own child.

 

 

:iagree: This. Exactly.

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There ARE some Christians that believe that they cannot have any kind of personal relationship with those that are not Christian. There are those that believe they can have a personal relationship with a non-Christian, but not with a Christian that believes differently than them. Then there are those of us that have had some very wonderful friends that are not Christians (and, sadly to say, some of those outnumber the Christian ones, because the relationship is not based upon faith or comparison thereof...just like some pastors' wives will intentionally keep their friendships to outside their own church). Like everything else, it can vary.

 

Thank you. This makes sense.

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Allowing the sin in their home is different than allowing the person in their home. This person is not going to be engaging in those actions when they stop by for lunch (if they are, that's a whole different problem). Just like someone who uses illegal drugs isn't going to be shooting up when they stop by for lunch (and if they do, again it's a different problem). You can welcome both the child and the child's "friend" as friends, as fellow humans, without approving of some of their actions. I know plenty of people whose actions I don't like, and I'm sure they don't like some of my actions, but we can get along most of the time because those actions don't define who we are as people.

 

:iagree::iagree:

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I don't fit the criteria you stated in the OP, but I used to. Back when I did, I remember reading advice to parents in a similar situation. The couple in question felt like they needed to behave like Person A, for similar reasons (younger children in the home, etc.).

 

The advice given was to think very carefully about what choice would keep the adult child closest to God. If all the Christians ban her from their homes, or ban her partner and make her feel unwelcome, how is that helping her feel the love of God or stay as close to him as possible?

 

I see Jesus encouraging us to consider our own sins. I don't see him encouraging us to monitor other people's sins or setting up criteria about who is pure enough for us to eat with. Quite the opposite.

 

I agree. When we reject non-Christians because they're not acting like Christians, how do we share the gospel? God doesn't require us to clean ourselves up before He loves us. He loves us first. If all Christians push this young woman away, how will she think Jesus loves her?

 

Wendi

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I actually was part of a coop and a small group of ladies there freaking told me they were praying for me. And not in a nice way.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. It isn't nice. It's not even an "oops" in offending someone. It's just a passive-aggressive way of telling someone they are lesser (in the opinion of the person saying it).

 

I don't know why some Christians use "I'm praying for you" as a weapon.

 

I pray for all sorts of people who, IMO, need change. But I don't attack them by telling them about it.

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That would be so hard, especially if the siblings were much younger.

 

However, I feel that part of my mission as a Christian is to show Christ's love to EVERYONE. We all sin. All sins are against God, not us. No sin is a small sin. How can I claim that, and still treat the sin of someone else differently than I treat my own sin?

 

I would make it clear that my beliefs are that their lifestyle is sinful. (just as I would if my adult child was blatantly committing any other sin) But I would not stop loving them or welcoming them into my home. I would ask that they not be openly affectionate with one another in my home or in front of my younger kids (just like I would ask them not to lie, steal, or any other sinful act) but they would be welcome here.

 

We have a lot of non-believing family and friends. Our house is open to them all, as long as they respect our house rules. (and they aren't hard rules...lol.) I cannot imagine not extending that grace to my own child.

 

:iagree::iagree: Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that, right? I can't see how refusing to even allow a close family member into your home because you believe their lifestyle is a sin is loving the sinner. I would just ask them to respect our beliefs while visiting, to not show the kids whatever behavior is in question. We have a dear friend who smokes, drinks, and swears. If you saw him at our house you would have no idea he does any of those things. He stays quite clean and respectful and loving when he is at our house, even when our kids aren't around. He closes his eyes for grace even though he's not religious, etc. And we don't hound him about his adult choices. He knows we don't do that/believe that's okay ourselves, but that we won't judge him for his choices that he makes on his own time. It's all about respect for those who make different choices, on both sides.

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I really can not agree with that statement. I've been quite shocked at what some Christians are able to rationalize.

 

I'm not understanding what you mean. Do you mean that those who are gossips or gluttons would ask someone to embrace gossip and gluttony as good things?

 

I've never seen such a thing. Even those who are definitely, objectively, gossips and gluttons would never, in my experience, be happy/proud/boastful about it. They might be quietly struggling/failing with it. They might be in denial about it. But I can't imagine them saying "I'm a glutton/gossip, isn't it wonderful!"

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I'm not understanding what you mean. Do you mean that those who are gossips or gluttons would ask someone to embrace gossip and gluttony as good things?

 

I've never seen such a thing. Even those who are definitely, objectively, gossips and gluttons would never, in my experience, be happy/proud/boastful about it. They might be quietly struggling/failing with it. They might be in denial about it. But I can't imagine them saying "I'm a glutton/gossip, isn't it wonderful!"

 

Ime it's along the lines of, "well, what *I* do isn't the kind of gossip/gluttony/homosexuality that the Bible condemns - I just 'tell the truth'/'enjoy food'/'am in a consensual, committed relationship'. I think the gossip comparison is a good one, actually - they make sure to define gossip in a way that excludes them and what they do. And gluttony in those who are thin gets a total pass, too. (And people who are overweight get slammed with the gluttony label whether they deserve it or not :glare:.)

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:iagree::iagree: Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that, right? I can't see how refusing to even allow a close family member into your home because you believe their lifestyle is a sin is loving the sinner. I would just ask them to respect our beliefs while visiting, to not show the kids whatever behavior is in question. We have a dear friend who smokes, drinks, and swears. If you saw him at our house you would have no idea he does any of those things. He stays quite clean and respectful and loving when he is at our house, even when our kids aren't around. He closes his eyes for grace even though he's not religious, etc. And we don't hound him about his adult choices. He knows we don't do that/believe that's okay ourselves, but that we won't judge him for his choices that he makes on his own time. It's all about respect for those who make different choices, on both sides.

We had (had, because we haven't seen him in a year due to marital issues he was having and us being down to one car) a friend that also swears and likes to make colourful jokes. I had no problems being friends with him. He tried to keep things down around our kids, but he is who he is and ironically, most of his friends are Christians (he just gets quiet when the conversation turns towards faith...he has his reasons and we are all respectful of them). The man would give, and has given, the shirt off of his back to other people. I used to babysit his mother (alzheimers) and his children.

Edited by mommaduck
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Did not read the thread, so this may have been mentioned. Not sure I'd invite the "friend" to my home, still yet. Would not shun them though, since they do not profess to be Christians.

 

 

1 Corinthians 5

 

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

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This isn't totally, directly applicable...but close.

 

http://circeinstitute.org/2012/10/all-we-need-is-love/

 

There can be both and. You can make your beliefs clear, and still have relationship. This is not some stranger, this is a *daughter*. She cannot even be held to the same standards as she does not believe.

 

This is where the lesson of the prodigal after comes into play. How he *gave* his advantage away (instead of letting the son take advantage of the father's love).

 

I don't like this new track that has been preached about keeping all the sinners away. We are the sinners. :confused:

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Hmmm... I think my answer to this would vary greatly depending on context.

 

I would come from the perspective first that Jesus caught a lot of flack for spending a lot of time with sinners. I, personally, am not so mature that I'm able to spend all my time around sin yet not sin myself, but that's what I'm working toward. Allowing sin around my children, however, sounds like terrible parenting. So if there was any chance they would try to proselytize the children away from the Lord I would ban it too.

 

Adult daughter doesn't claim to be Christian *now,* but do you know if she genuinely had her own relationship with God as a child? Has she ever known the Lord at all? And no, I don't mean learn about the Lord from her parent's or pastor's perspective, but has she known Him herself, personally?

 

Also, my answer might vary a lot depending on the child's verbalized attitudes. Is this relationship a matter of long-lasting rebellion? Did she say she just fell in love with *this* person, or has she said she has always felt this is who she *is* and that she will never change? Is this just the first time she's felt unconditionally loved (regardless of whether you unconditionally love her, is this relationship/lifestyle the first place she's FELT loved due to acceptance or love language or whatever).

 

In other words, if I was convinced she knew the Lord and was willfully rebellious against Him and Us, I would probably have a bit less compassion than if this was a child who had heard about the Lord but who had never known Him personally, and who had always struggled with these feelings (felt she had been born this way) and only recently voiced them.

 

In the latter scenario, I'd do whatever I could to make sure she would come to know the Lord, including inviting girlfriend over (separate bedrooms).

 

As an aside, I do think that some people are *born* with this particular struggle, and others choose it. Since high school I've wondered if Paul was gay every time I read through the new testament.

 

If she had known the Lord but claims not to be Christian because of her lifestyle, I would seriously consider encouraging her to go to one of the churches that is more accepting of her lifestyle, in hopes that by drawing closer to the Lord the Holy Spirit would do whatever changing and convicting is necessary. But even in that case, I wouldn't go around husband's will to invite the girlfriend. I probably WOULD gently point out any hipocracy in HIS life and the Lord's prayer about forgiving trespasses.

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I've not read all the posts.

 

Bethany, all I an say is, "Love the sinner. Hate the sin." I could not imagine not allowing the person my adult child loves into my home. All the other stuff is between each person and God. I do not believe your Person A would be following in Jesus' footsteps by not showing hospitality to a friend of a family member.

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I'm going to answer this even though I don't agree with those two statements because it has personal relevance for my own family. I hope that is okay.

 

My older brother realized during his senior year in high school that he was gay. I was a junior at the time. We had much younger siblings. They were still in lower elementary school. After my brother moved out, he had a boyfriend that he often stayed with or who stayed at his apartment. My mother NEVER let him bring his boyfriend over, refused to talk about his boyfriend, constantly brought up his girlfriends that he had during high school to tell him he should have stayed with them instead, and often wouldn't even let him visit when she was angry or disappointed with him about it. There was so much pain and conflict revolving around how my parents reacted to his choices.

 

My brother died of leukemia when he was 21. We found out he had leukemia and he died 6 weeks later. It was terrible. My mother never did come to terms with the fact that he was gay, but she definitely regretted some of the choices she had made about the way she treated him. We talked about it a few times before she died three years ago. My youngest brother did not know that our oldest brother was gay until I told him after our mother died. He said it explained a lot that had confused him for years.

 

None of my three younger siblings are gay. None of my three younger siblings have had s*x before marriage. My sister knew all along that our brother was gay, and she and I both had a lot of conflict with our mother over the way she treated our oldest brother. My youngest sister and brother were so hurt that they didn't see him more often in the 3 years between when he moved out and when he died. They knew mom was angry at him a lot, but they didn't know why. Dad never talked about him after he moved out, Mom was always upset or disappointed. All they knew was they didn't get to see him. Their beloved oldest brother felt like he had to choose between his family and love. It was hurtful for all of us.

 

I just caution anyone who chooses to shun family members because of their choices. My parents attitude was beyond hurtful to my brother, who not only rejected their beliefs about homosexuality, but in the end, nearly everything they believed. He couldn't reconcile the forgiving, loving Christianity that we were TOLD to believe with the way they treated him. In all honestly, I can't either.

 

There is so much pain in this for my family, even with the two main people gone, that I would hate to see that for you and your children.

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There can be both and. You can make your beliefs clear, and still have relationship. This is not some stranger, this is a *daughter*. She cannot even be held to the same standards as she does not believe.

 

This is where the lesson of the prodigal after comes into play. How he *gave* his advantage away (instead of letting the son take advantage of the father's love).

 

I don't like this new track that has been preached about keeping all the sinners away. We are the sinners. :confused:

 

I don't think it has been suggested anywhere that the OP/dh cut off relations with the daughter. Did I miss that? People have come down in varying places about whether/how much access to give the partner, but I don't think anyone suggested cut off the daughter.

 

I don't think the prodigal son applies here. The prodigal son did not bring his lifestyle into his father's house nor ask that it be accepted. He *went away*. He only came back after he was ruined. And ostensibly took up a lifestyle in his father's home that his father would approve of, or at least not find actively offensive. But nowhere does the Bible suggest that he brought his partying ways back with him.

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I'm going to finally give my piece:

 

I have an aunt that is a lesbian in a very long and loving relationship. They even bought a house together many years ago. Both her and her partner would be welcomed in my home.

 

I had a couple of acquaintances (cousin of a friend and friend of a friend) that I cared about. They were the rebellious, "we're bored, let's try something different, shocking to everyone else" type (they were pretty open about all of this) and a bit "rub other people's faces in it and see how they will react". I lovingly told them that they were welcomed to be around, but to keep any public affection or comments to themselves and not around my (then) young children. I was honest with where I stood on the matter, am willing to accept them as they are, but would like for them to figure this out first before making public declarations, etc (they were claiming bisexuality, but was more along the lines of promiscuous with no men available at the time). I also asked for some space for me and for them to figure out what they were doing. My issue was more the attitude and promiscuity of "I'll sleep with whatever and whomever is available".

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He couldn't reconcile the forgiving, loving Christianity that we were TOLD to believe with the way they treated him. In all honestly, I can't either.

 

 

 

Forgiveness is for those who are repentant. Not for those who are not sorry and have every intention of continuing on.

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I don't think it has been suggested anywhere that the OP/dh cut off relations with the daughter. Did I miss that? People have come down in varying places about whether/how much access to give the partner, but I don't think anyone suggested cut off the daughter.

 

I don't think the prodigal son applies here. The prodigal son did not bring his lifestyle into his father's house nor ask that it be accepted. He *went away*. He only came back after he was ruined. And ostensibly took up a lifestyle in his father's home that his father would approve of, or at least not find actively offensive. But nowhere does the Bible suggest that he brought his partying ways back with him.

That is open rebellion (intent and attitude), not "I don't believe this is wrong, I believe this is just nature and how I am"

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I'm going to answer this even though I don't agree with those two statements because it has personal relevance for my own family. I hope that is okay.

 

My older brother realized during his senior year in high school that he was gay. I was a junior at the time. We had much younger siblings. They were still in lower elementary school. After my brother moved out, he had a boyfriend that he often stayed with or who stayed at his apartment. My mother NEVER let him bring his boyfriend over, refused to talk about his boyfriend, constantly brought up his girlfriends that he had during high school to tell him he should have stayed with them instead, and often wouldn't even let him visit when she was angry or disappointed with him about it. There was so much pain and conflict revolving around how my parents reacted to his choices.

 

My brother died of leukemia when he was 21. We found out he had leukemia and he died 6 weeks later. It was terrible. My mother never did come to terms with the fact that he was gay, but she definitely regretted some of the choices she had made about the way she treated him. We talked about it a few times before she died three years ago. My youngest brother did not know that our oldest brother was gay until I told him after our mother died. He said it explained a lot that had confused him for years.

 

None of my three younger siblings are gay. None of my three younger siblings have had s*x before marriage. My sister knew all along that our brother was gay, and she and I both had a lot of conflict with our mother over the way she treated our oldest brother. My youngest sister and brother were so hurt that they didn't see him more often in the 3 years between when he moved out and when he died. They knew mom was angry at him a lot, but they didn't know why. Dad never talked about him after he moved out, Mom was always upset or disappointed. All they knew was they didn't get to see him. Their beloved oldest brother felt like he had to choose between his family and love. It was hurtful for all of us.

 

I just caution anyone who chooses to shun family members because of their choices. My parents attitude was beyond hurtful to my brother, who not only rejected their beliefs about homosexuality, but in the end, nearly everything they believed. He couldn't reconcile the forgiving, loving Christianity that we were TOLD to believe with the way they treated him. In all honestly, I can't either.

 

There is so much pain in this for my family, even with the two main people gone, that I would hate to see that for you and your children.

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

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Forgiveness is for those who are repentant. Not for those who are not sorry and have every intention of continuing on.

 

I disagree. Forgiveness is for those who have harmed us - whether they see it as a harm or not has nothing to do with it. If they had no intention of continuing it, we'd never need to go as far as "seventy times seven" because they'd quit doing it after they were sorry and we forgave them once.

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I haven't read through all this and will later. But my quick response is if Person A asks advice give it to her. If not leave it alone.

 

And if it were me, the advice I would give this person is that we are called to welcome sinners into our homes. Our lives and loves should be a testimony to them. Now, fellowshipping is a different thing entirely scripturally speaking. But you said they weren't Christ followers so it doesn't really matter as far as that. I believe it is our call and obligation to welcome the sinner.

 

ETA: I would say something to Person A if they were someone I considered to be in deep fellowship with me as a sister in Christ.

 

ETA again: Yikes! I am so sorry, Bethany. What a tough place for you to be in. It doesn't change my opinion really. Hugs.

Edited by sunnylady303
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I disagree. Forgiveness is for those who have harmed us - whether they see it as a harm or not has nothing to do with it. If they had no intention of continuing it, we'd never need to go as far as "seventy times seven" because they'd quit doing it after they were sorry and we forgave them once.

 

Sinners intend to discontinue a sin and end up repeating it endlessly ALL THE TIME. Have you never had something that you wanted to stop doing but just kept falling into the same behavior pattern?

 

I see nothing in scripture to suggest that Christ forgives the unrepentant.

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Sinners intend to discontinue a sin and end up repeating it endlessly ALL THE TIME. Have you never had something that you wanted to stop doing but just kept falling into the same behavior pattern?

 

I see nothing in scripture to suggest that Christ forgives the unrepentant.

 

But we're not trying to find out who Christ will forgive, but who we are supposed to forgive and how we are supposed to treat people we think are sinning. Not the same thing.

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Forgiveness is for those who are repentant. Not for those who are not sorry and have every intention of continuing on.

 

Given the context of the post to which you are replying, this absolutely blows my mind.

 

To the poster who lost your brother, I am so very sorry for your loss. I think that sharing the story will definitely allow many people to learn from your family's experience.

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