How would you handle this?

[*********]

These people forced young children into an uncomfortable situation, disregarded the mother's wishes, and lied about it. And a Christian would consider this to be a good thing to do? :confused: :confused: :confused: Really? I can't wrap my mind around it.

 

:iagree: Sorry SKL, I'm totally with sunflowers here on this.

[SKL]

These people forced young children into an uncomfortable situation, disregarded the mother's wishes, and lied about it. And a Christian would consider this to be a good thing to do? :confused: :confused: :confused: Really? I can't wrap my mind around it.

 

Not every Christian would consider it good, but this couple obviously did. As has been pointed out above, some folks believe that if someone dies without believing Jesus is their savior, they go to eternal hellfire. My brother's Godfather believed that newborn babies who died before baptism went to Hell. (My parents did not agree and said so, but didn't keep us away from Godfather.) I'm sure some grandparents feel it's worth the wrath of the parents to "plant a seed."

 

It's not the only area where people feel OK going against parental authority. How often have we seen "call CPS" right here on this board, over things a lot less concerning than eternal hellfire. (Not saying I personally believe little kids go to Hell.)

 

Maybe this mom has some other baggage and the church thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Honestly, to anyone with a healthy view of religion, this is not a big deal. Why, 50% of my kids' 1st grade health book goes against my beliefs and family traditions. They still have to regurgitate that nonsense in order to get a grade for the class. I don't like it, but I'm not going to start hyperventilating about it.

 

Also, I can't imagine asking my parents to take my kids and then giving them a list of things they must not expose my kids to. They managed to raise 6 kids and develop a bit of wisdom along the way. If my kids grow up and bring that kind of list to me, I'll probably just decline to take them at all. (But then, I don't worry about eternal hellfire.)

[Mrs Mungo]

2) Knowing the grandparents are Christians, I would accept that they considered this a good thing to do and now it's done and over. I would not let this eat me up after the fact. It shouldn't be that much of a surprise, actually. No harm was done, other than to your ego (you want to be 100% in charge of this stuff).

 

Strongly disagree. What makes you believe it is done and over? What makes you believe that they will not continue to badger the children into professing to share their religious beliefs?

[TranquilMind]

:iagree:

 

At this age, I think he would be fine. I want him to have as many experiences as possible not only with various religions but in life in general. Unfortunately since the grandparents weren't honest with you, you weren't able to have this discussion with them before the experience.

 

The problem with your situation is that the grandparents went against what was previously agreed upon. This is what I would focus on with them, my husband and my children ... not the religious beliefs that they were exposed to. You can simply tell your children that everyone has different beliefs and what they saw are what their grandparents believe and they should respect their beliefs whether they or you agree with them or not. What you do not respect is the fact that they told you one thing and then did another. Going to a church service here and there with a friend or family member isn't going to brainwash your children. Right now you will have the most influence over their beliefs. Make the most of it while you can, and try not to confuse them or turn them against other people's beliefs. (I'm not saying that you did, but it can be a fine line to walk in situations like these.)

 

I think it's very important for your children to understand why you are upset with their grandparents and it's because they weren't honest with you, not because you don't respect their beliefs.

 

Well-balanced view here. You are right. The deception is the only point of issue here, not the faith.

[TranquilMind]

My brother's Godfather believed that newborn babies who died before baptism went to Hell. (My parents did not agree and said so, but didn't keep us away from Godfather.) I'm sure some grandparents feel it's worth the wrath of the parents to "plant a seed."

 

It's not the only area where people feel OK going against parental authority. How often have we seen "call CPS" right here on this board, over things a lot less concerning than eternal hellfire. (Not saying I personally believe little kids go to Hell.)

 

Maybe this mom has some other baggage and the church thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Honestly, to anyone with a healthy view of religion, this is not a big deal. Why, 50% of my kids' 1st grade health book goes against my beliefs and family traditions. They still have to regurgitate that nonsense in order to get a grade for the class. I don't like it, but I'm not going to start hyperventilating about it.

 

Also, I can't imagine asking my parents to take my kids and then giving them a list of things they must not expose my kids to. They managed to raise 6 kids and develop a bit of wisdom along the way. If my kids grow up and bring that kind of list to me, I'll probably just decline to take them at all. (But then, I don't worry about eternal hellfire.)

 

Yes, all this!

[Amy in NH]

A few months ago without our permission and knowing we were against involving the kids with religion until they are of the age to independently decide what they believe, my ILs took my kids to their Christian church for services. We had discussed it, and they said they had no issue missing church in exchange for 3 days with the kids.

 

I come back to find that they used the key we left for emergencies to go to our house, get them dresses, and took them to church. DH and I both were very angry as we don't want anyone of any religion pushing their views on our kids. At the time, MIL swore they only went to Sunday school and learned about the Ark.

 

Today during school we were discussing early Christianity in history when my 8yo pops up that "yeah, MIL and FIL tried to get me to say I believed Jesus was my savior and got mad when I wouldn't" and my 6yo says "I said it just to make them happy but I didn't believe it either it was too much like a fairy tale".

 

I could spit nails. Actually, at the moment my daughter said that I wanted to be physically violent towards them. They know I was abused in nearly every way possible by someone who was in a position of religious authority. At the time we had a major argument about this. The kids haven't visited on a Sunday or Wednesday since we found out and they no longer get a key to our house. DH says to just let it go and not to let them keep them when church is in session. His family is aware that another incident like this will end them keeping the kids, period.

 

I'm trying to be calm. Part of me just wants to look them in they eye and say, "I know what you two lying sickos did. Stay away from my kids."

 

Maybe this is a JAWM post. I don't know. I'm probably just venting. I just don't like children being pressured into another soul notch on their belt.

 

If it were me, my kids wouldn't be going for unsupervised visits with ILs.

[SKL]

Strongly disagree. What makes you believe it is done and over? What makes you believe that they will not continue to badger the children into professing to share their religious beliefs?

 

Maybe they will, but the parents can talk to their children about the appropriate way to react to such "badgering." So the impact (if any) of the wrong is done and over.

 

(I am also a little reluctant to take the paraphrased kids' descriptions, stated during "atheism" class, to a mom who is obviously ticked at the grandparents, to be a completely accurate view of what occurred.)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

(I am also a little reluctant to take the paraphrased kids' descriptions, stated during "atheism" class, to a mom who is obviously ticked at the grandparents, to be a completely accurate view of what occurred.)

 

What on earth does that mean? And how does a child not exposed to religion come up with "I believed Jesus was my savior" on his own?

[SKL]

What on earth does that mean? And how does a child not exposed to religion come up with "I believed Jesus was my savior" on his own?

 

Well, let's see, they were in the middle of a class on early Christian history taught by mom when this revelation came up.

 

I don't doubt that they were exposed to their grandparents' belief, but it's possible they exaggerated/overinterpreted the "tried to make me" and "got mad when I wouldn't" part to please Mom. It happens! I know I did this kind of thing as a kid.

Edited October 10, 2012 by SKL

[cin]

:iagree:

 

 

But to the grandparents, I would make it a big deal. I mean a sky-high big deal with a cherry on top. Taking them to church against the parents' wishes was pretty bad, but the business about trying to get the kids to make Christian confessions was so incredibly, amazingly without boundaries that Grandma and Grandpa would be off my childcare list permanently.

 

Plus, when I did let them be around the kids, I'd not leave them unattended. Ever.

 

I'm a Christian, and I beleive that Christian confession, but nobody forces my child to make a religious decision. Not even me! To me, that is a personal decision that I would LOVE for my children to make, but it's not my place, nor anybody else's to FORCE that decision.

[mamajag]

I just found out about the whole "saving" thing yesterday. The incident happened a few months ago.

 

They're lying sickos not because of their religious beliefs but for their use of intimidation and guilt tripping towards a child that did not wish to join their group. Apparently she was promised ice cream and pizza after church if she'd just say it so they didn't have to worry about her soul any more. My girl stood her ground, and it explains a lot as to why the younger 2 are willing to go to the ILs but ever since the visit where they took the kids to church oldest does not want to go. She holds stuff in and just tries to deal with it herself. It isn't surprising that she would only just now admit to me what happened.

 

Perhaps lying sickos is harsh, but how do you trust people after a stunt like that and after realizing it went a lot farther than they told you? How do you even answer the church's assertion that the Holocaust didn't happen? Apparently they told the kids it was their only shot not to go to hell because we refuse to tell them the truth.

[Audrey]

I'm sorry this has happened to you. We've been there, too, unfortunately.

 

It is difficult, but not impossible to reverse the damage made by spiritual abusers like that. It is spiritual abuse to corner someone and try to force your beliefs upon them, further abuse to try to guilt them into making statements of faith. Your children were, in essence, captive to their proselytizing.

 

It would be a good idea to talk with the children to determine what was said to them and how it made them feel. Talk about those things in the way that best reflects your own views and which is appropriate to your children's maturity.

 

I would suggest trying to keep any judgment of the grandparents out of it. They are your relatives, and that will not change. I don't advocate making war with relatives, if at all possible. I would, however, refuse any more stay-overs with them unless you are there to supervise. Obviously, these people do not understand appropriate boundaries when it comes to religion or your rights and privileges as the parent.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Well, let's see, they were in the middle of a class on "comparative religions" taught by mom when this revelation came up.

 

I don't doubt that they were exposed to their grandparents' belief, but it's possible they exaggerated/overinterpreted the "tried to make me" and "got mad when I wouldn't" part to please Mom. It happens! I know I did this kind of thing as a kid.

 

Are you serious? Are you saying that someone who is not religious or who doesn't subscribe wholeheartedly to a particular religion is automatically biased when it comes to teaching religion in a historical context? Are you personally incapable of teaching your children about religions other than your own in an objective manner? Where did the OP say she was teaching "comparative religions"? She said they were discussion early Christianity in history.

 

And now you're extrapolating the childrens' motives based on a bias you're imagining and attributing to this person you've never met? I'm all kinds of :confused: here.

 

ETA: I see you edited the post I quoted, but your initial error was very telling, IMO.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Sweet Morning Air

[Joanne]

I'm sorry this has happened to you. We've been there, too, unfortunately.

 

It is difficult, but not impossible to reverse the damage made by spiritual abusers like that. It is spiritual abuse to corner someone and try to force your beliefs upon them, further abuse to try to guilt them into making statements of faith. Your children were, in essence, captive to their proselytizing.

 

It would be a good idea to talk with the children to determine what was said to them and how it made them feel. Talk about those things in the way that best reflects your own views and which is appropriate to your children's maturity.

 

I would suggest trying to keep any judgment of the grandparents out of it. They are your relatives, and that will not change. I don't advocate making war with relatives, if at all possible. I would, however, refuse any more stay-overs with them unless you are there to supervise. Obviously, these people do not understand appropriate boundaries when it comes to religion or your rights and privileges as the parent.

 

What a reasonable, sane, graceful post. ;)

[Element]

It's not really the same thing at all. The grandparents agreed that they wouldn't mind missing services to spend the time with their grandkids. If they didn't want to, they were free to set needing to attend services as a condition. People miss services all the time, for lots of different reasons, and typically services are offered more than one day a week because of this. Also, asking non-religious grandparents to take the kids to a service is like asking religious grandparents to take kids to a secular humanism meeting, NOT like asking them to miss a service that they could attend at some other time.

 

And anyway, the point is not even the attendance at the service. It's the complete and utter premeditated deception. People who will knowingly deceive me over issues that I consider important as a parent are not people I will trust with my children, because they've just shown me that they don't really care what my beliefs are about anything. And if I have to accept that religion is important to religious people, then they also have to accept that holding off on religious teaching is equally important to me. It goes both ways.

 

ITA w/ all, but especially the bolded. My children would probably not be allowed any unsupervised contact with these people for several years. It's not even about religion for me, it's about the premeditated deception. ETA: No one, not even grandparents, gets a pass on premeditated deception. Additionally, there is no religious exemption for premeditated deception.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Element

[RanchGirl]

I think you know now that you can't leave your children with these people. They lied to you. Period. Clearly this has major triggers for you from past events, but if possible I would try to dial down the drama and the "lying sickos" rhetoric and the threats, because it's unnecessary, it's not good for you, and it's adding to the drama for the kids. To the kids I would just say as a previous poster suggested "some people believe that. I don't. When you grow up, you will decide what you believe."

 

It sounds like your husband already talked to his parents? I don't think you can reason with them in this situation. They have shown you who they are. Now you can make better informed decisions in the future and not leave your kids with them.

 

Aside from them not being trustworthy candidates for child care, they are pretty deluded to think they can force a kid to become a Christian with one church service and a high pressure confession. Or that lying to your son and daughter-in-law is a great witness.

[SKL]

Are you serious? Are you saying that someone who is not religious or who doesn't subscribe wholeheartedly to a particular religion is automatically biased when it comes to teaching religion in a historical context? Are you personally incapable of teaching your children about religions other than your own in an objective manner? Where did the OP say she was teaching "comparative religions"? She said they were discussion early Christianity in history.

 

And now you're extrapolating the childrens' motives based on a bias you're imagining and attributing to this person you've never met? I'm all kinds of :confused: here.

 

You're right about the title of the class, and I corrected that a bit ago in my comment.

 

I am just saying I am reluctant to treat the statements as 100% accurate. I am not saying anyone "is" lying or biased or anything. I don't always believe what my own kids tell me without leaving room for the possibility that (a) they misunderstood, (b) they are saying it to please me, © they are saying it because it sounds interesting, (d) they aren't remembering accurately, (e) they are mixing it up with some other memory, etc.

 

The statements in question are particularly suspect since they involve a young child reporting on the motives or feelings of an adult they are being raised to question if not disrespect. And it is pretty clear that this is a hot button of their mom's and the kids are not blind to that.

 

It could have happened exactly as stated, but my reaction here is tempered by the fact that it might not have.

[mamajag]

It was totally out of line for them to secretly take your kids somewhere you didn't want your kids to be, when they had stated that they wouldn't. Even worse for them to bully your kids into an insincere expression of faith (and in any case, all the Christians I know irl would agree that this isn't the right way to bring people to Christ). I'd be giving your in-laws an explicit warning (preferably getting your husband on board first, so you know he's ready to back you up) and if they do anything like this again that would be the end of their contact with their grandchildren.

 

It's not about church and Sunday school. (I don't think they're harmful. We are atheistic but I have personally taken my kids to Sabbath school, and church, and mosque, and they are none the worse for it.) It's about the fact that you can't trust these people because they don't have any respect for you as the kids' parents.

I could see visiting a less extremist church. My brother is a dean at quite a lovely church that we would have no problem with them visiting mainly because my brother understands parental boundaries. It's a mix of those people with that church...and it's just impossible to peacefully say, "Leave my kids out of your religion." If you're not on the boat with them, you're against them. No way around it.

[Catwoman]

Perhaps lying sickos is harsh, but how do you trust people after a stunt like that and after realizing it went a lot farther than they told you?

 

I absolutely agree with you that you can't trust them! They knew your beliefs and your wishes, and they expressly violated them. That was wrong!

 

I just don't think that makes them "sickos." I really think you're over-reacting. I don't get the impression that they are mean or intentionally hurtful to your kids, yet it sounds like you really hate them right now. I can understand being angry, but I truly don't think the grandparents are the Face of Evil because of this.

 

If the incident happened a month ago, what has transpired between your kids and the in-laws since that time? Have there been any more religious references? I think you should definitely talk with the kids to find out if anything else has happened, just for your own peace of mind.

 

Again, I'm not criticizing you for being upset. I just think you're vilifying the in-laws because of the religion thing, without considering whether or not they have always been good grandparents in other ways. Obviously, you knew they were very religious people. If they are as fanatically religious as you describe them, well, honestly, I think it may have been a bit naive of you and your dh to think that they would never discuss their faith with your kids. (I do agree that they were way over-the-top with the demand that the kids say they accepted Jesus as their savior, though -- that would make me incredibly angry, too. And I think it's pretty creepy that an ice cream reward would be offered for their compliance.)

 

I think your only solution is to always be with the kids when the grandparents are around, so you can avoid future problems like this.

 

I would also suggest that your dh speak with his parents about this -- more firmly than ever before -- they are his parents, so let him deal with them.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Catwoman

[laundrycrisis]

IMO "lying sickos" is not harsh. It is 100% accurate. Their very deceptive, premeditated attempt to do an end run around your decisions as parents is disgusting. I don't care if they believe 100% that your kids will go to hell - it still does not justify their behavior.

 

My reaction to this would be no more unsupervised visits with our children again - ever. When a child turns 18, if the grandparents are still around, they can make their case for belief in their religion, if the child chooses to hear it. Until then, they are welcome to pray all they want but not to violate our rules for our kids.

 

I would tell the kids straight up that these grandparents believe something that mom and dad don't, and that they broke a huge rule in trying to convince the kids to agree with their beliefs, behind Mom and Dad's backs, and that the kids will never be put in that position with these grandparents again.

 

It would be one thing if the grandparents asked if they could take them to visit their church, you said it was fine, and it was a nice church to visit, with no pressure involved. In that sort of situation, everything is fine. But this - they asked, you clearly said no, they chose to sneak around and do it anyway, and tried to force your kids to verbally profess adoption of their beliefs - just wrong in so many ways. Your ILs have shown their true colors. They are people who will put their zeal for religious conversion of other people's children ahead of any other ethics.

Edited October 10, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[MinivanMom]

They would no longer see my children unsupervised. And they would be clearly told why.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think this has anything to do with religion. The parents asked the grandparents to watch the children over the weekend with the request that they not take them to church. The grandparents agreed to the stipulation. They then used a key to sneak into the home to get church clothes for the children, took them to services, tried to pressure the children to confess Jesus as their Savior, and then got angry when the oldest child wouldn't. When the parents returned and found out what was done, the grandparents initially lied and said that they had only taken the children to Sunday School. The truth came out from the children later. I have younger kids myself and I know it's very common for my children to only tell me bits and pieces initially. Over time they will fill in details as the topic comes up naturally.

 

These are grandparents who set out to deceive the parents by agreeing not to take them to services when they fully intended to do so. These are grandparents who violated trust by misusing their housekey to obtain church clothes to carry out the deception. These are grandparents who felt anger was an appropriate response to an 8-year-old who wouldn't confess Jesus as their Savior. These are grandparents who then lied to the parents to cover-up the extent of their deception. These are not emotionally healthy people.

 

To OP: You were right to take away the housekey. You would be right to no longer utilize the grandparents as babysitters. Give yourself some time to calm down, though, and figure out what this is about and what it isn't about. This isn't about religion. It's about lying, deceitful behavior, and a total lack of boundaries on the part of the grandparents. You now know that the grandparents will not respect your wishes, that they will lie to your face about it, and that they are capable of well-planned deceit. Keep that in mind as you interact with them in the future.

[Truscifi]

I'm sorry this has happened to you. We've been there, too, unfortunately.

 

It is difficult, but not impossible to reverse the damage made by spiritual abusers like that. It is spiritual abuse to corner someone and try to force your beliefs upon them, further abuse to try to guilt them into making statements of faith. Your children were, in essence, captive to their proselytizing.

 

It would be a good idea to talk with the children to determine what was said to them and how it made them feel. Talk about those things in the way that best reflects your own views and which is appropriate to your children's maturity.

 

I would suggest trying to keep any judgment of the grandparents out of it. They are your relatives, and that will not change. I don't advocate making war with relatives, if at all possible. I would, however, refuse any more stay-overs with them unless you are there to supervise. Obviously, these people do not understand appropriate boundaries when it comes to religion or your rights and privileges as the parent.

 

:iagree: Audrey said it much better than I could have. And I also agree with Element - there is no religious exemption for premeditated deception. Once again I am so thankful for the ILs I have. We may disagree on many, many issues, but they have always been very respectful of the fact that dh and I are the parents and the decisions are ours to make.

[SKL]

 

ETA: I see you edited the post I quoted, but your initial error was very telling, IMO.

 

Well yes, and I think it was "telling" that this came up while discussing the history of Christianity. Months after the fact, we now learn.

 

I find it extremely unlikely that during a discussion about the history of Christianity (which happens to include evangelism as well as forcing of expressed "beliefs"), the OP never let on to what she thinks of Christianity / Christians / evangelism.

Edited October 10, 2012 by SKL

[bolt.]

Perhaps lying sickos is harsh, but how do you trust people after a stunt like that and after realizing it went a lot farther than they told you?

You don't. Trust is not the right relationship model for people who have shown that they lack the personal capacity to keep their behaviour in accordance with their words. It doesn't matter *why* they can't seem to do that. It matters that they have clearly demonstrated 'where they are at' on this issue, and you get to deal with it.

 

I'd deal with it through boundaries and supervision, just like I do with any person whom I know isn't in a place to be 'trusted'. It's not a value judgement, it's just a practical plan based on the facts that substantiate your conclusions. They have done this, and you have no reason to believe they won't do it again.

 

What they were doint *is* spiritual abuse, and the reason they are OK with that is because they are used to it. They have subjected themselves to spiritual abuse in their own faith community... and the thing about abuse is not just that it's 'bad' but that it's bad because it hurts people. It changes and transforms people it makes them puppets to fear and propganda, and then it carries on, turning abusees into abusers.

 

(I don't think 'one dose' will hurt your children, but I do think your IL's have been systematically abused in their faith community, because they show symptoms. At a certain point their conduct begins to get blurry: whether it's 'their choice' or whether there are components of their actions which are the direct result of the damage done by ways they have been spiritually abused.)

 

How do you even answer the church's assertion that the Holocaust didn't happen?

You don't. You say something like, "I don't need to have a debate with you. You know I don't share your opinion about that." and/or "I won't allow you to discuss that topic with my children. Are you finished, or are we leaving?"

 

Apparently they told the kids it was their only shot not to go to hell because we refuse to tell them the truth.

Gah! I don't think I'd even let them be alone in an adjoining room if that's the kind of thing that's at-risk of happening. I'd make it clear: "Our trust is broken and you will not be alone with our kids under any circumstances. We will visit as a family, and you will see to it that you are not alone with any child, for any reason. This is your last chance to keep seeing them at all... we suggest you take no risks. There will be zero tollerance."

 

On the other hand grandkids are a very powerful force... If, in a year or two, your IL's would like to have more than 'supervised visitation' with their GKs, you could tell them you'd be willing to consider it -- if they read the book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" and write up a homework assignment on each chapter. (You never know, you might be the one to 'rescue' them!)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Well yes, and I think it was "telling" that this came up while discussing the history of Christianity. Months after the fact, we now learn.

 

I find it extremely unlikely that during a discussion about Christianity (which happens to include evangelism as well as forcing of expressed "beliefs"), the OP never let on to what she thinks of Christianity / Christians / evangelism.

 

Well, I'm not really sure why. If you're discussing the tenets of Christianity, one of them happens to be that Christians believe Jesus is their savior, no? And while Christians like Grandma and Grandpa believe that, people in other religions do not. And that opens the door nice and wide for an, "Oh, mom, by the way..." Does the OP have to speaking negatively of Christians in order to get that story from her child?

 

Hm, I guess if you can't teach about any other religion without running it down, we're all suspect. I'd better go snatch that Bible and those VeggieTales DVDs out of my DD's room then. I'm an atheist, so I can't have that in the house.

 

I really can't even believe I'm having this conversation with an intelligent adult and parent.

[Jennifer3141]

OP, my mother once made a joke about kidnapping my kids and baptizing them against our wishes.

 

Since that time, my parents have never been left alone with my kids and we monitor their phone calls. My father has cancer and tried to play the, "I need to tell you about Jesus before I die" card and we simply hung up the phone.

 

My parents are decent-ish people with one glaring error. And it has cost them a deeper relationship with my children. They know it intellectually but still manage to blame DH and I for it.

 

But years later, my parents do understand that proslytizing to my kids will result in a cutoff of communications. And they mostly respect that. As my kids have grown and their ability to reason has grown, my parents have kind of outgrown their ability to answer my kids' naturally skeptical questions anyway. :D

 

What your ILs did is awful and you need to be clear with them that a violation like that may never occur again.

[mamajag]

I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but I feel like there's some minimizing going on here. And I do wonder, if the situations were reversed and the grandparents took the kids to a secular humanism meeting and tried to get the kids to accept that there is no god and Jesus is a myth, how strongly religious parents would react to this deception, and how they'd view the grandparents' inevitable regular sharing of their deeply held atheist beliefs.

 

I agree. If I were to teach someone else's kids the way I do about each religion having its followers and no one truly knowing what happens after death, I'm sure the religious parents would be upset with me and TBH they would have every reason to if they had specifically said they didn't want their DC taught that.

 

I just work hard not to show favorites between the religions and let them learn about all of them before just signing up at the local church because it is what there. I figure by the teens they'd be ready to think about that sort of commitment seriously.

[SKL]

Well, I'm not really sure why. If you're discussing the tenets of Christianity, one of them happens to be that Christians believe Jesus is their savior, no? And while Christians like Grandma and Grandpa believe that, people in other religions do not. And that opens the door nice and wide for an, "Oh, mom, by the way..." Does the OP have to speaking negatively of Christians in order to get that story from her child?

 

Hm, I guess if you can't teach about any other religion without running it down, we're all suspect. I'd better go snatch that Bible and those VeggieTales DVDs out of my DD's room then. I'm an atheist, so I can't have that in the house.

 

I really can't even believe I'm having this conversation with an intelligent adult and parent.

 

I'm not drawing conclusions, but I've lived in the world long enough to know how people act and think. OP made it clear that she has a lot of baggage as far as religion goes. Kids pick up on stuff.

 

You seem to want to 100% believe the reported one-sided version of this event. I prefer to withhold judgment since the other side of it isn't here to testify, and also, because this is a very charged subject and something that happened a long time ago (in kid years).

 

I teach my kids about different religions and they are aware of diversity of thought. They know that belief is something only the believer has control over. But then, I think I have a pretty healthy and open view of religions. I'm not afraid of anything my kids might be exposed to. I actually go out of my way to expose them, my purpose being to make them aware of what I believe is a common underlying thread to all religious belief systems. I honestly don't care what they are told by their Christian grandparents, friends who are Muslim and Hindu, or anyone else. If they came home and said "Aunt S wanted me to say ___," I wouldn't be spewing fury and calling Aunt S names. Now if I had evidence that Aunt S threatened to punish them if they didn't say ___, that would be a different story.

[mommaduck]

I just found out about the whole "saving" thing yesterday. The incident happened a few months ago.

 

They're lying sickos not because of their religious beliefs but for their use of intimidation and guilt tripping towards a child that did not wish to join their group. Apparently she was promised ice cream and pizza after church if she'd just say it so they didn't have to worry about her soul any more. My girl stood her ground, and it explains a lot as to why the younger 2 are willing to go to the ILs but ever since the visit where they took the kids to church oldest does not want to go. She holds stuff in and just tries to deal with it herself. It isn't surprising that she would only just now admit to me what happened.

 

Perhaps lying sickos is harsh, but how do you trust people after a stunt like that and after realizing it went a lot farther than they told you? How do you even answer the church's assertion that the Holocaust didn't happen? Apparently they told the kids it was their only shot not to go to hell because we refuse to tell them the truth.

 

Eh, some people have this thing where they believe "say the magic words and bam! You are saved until kingdom comes" rather than in faith. Promising kids treats to say certain words in no way will "save" a child's soul.

 

Lying, deceiving, bribing...what kind of Christians are they??? (rhetorical question that should be answered by the grandparents, not here by you ;) )

Edited October 10, 2012 by mommaduck

[Catwoman]

My father has cancer and tried to play the, "I need to tell you about Jesus before I die" card and we simply hung up the phone.

 

Honestly, in a situation like that (if he really is dying,) I probably would have let him talk. When my dad was sick, I would have listened to him talk about whatever he wanted, if I thought it would ease his mind in any way.

 

But my dad and I were very close, and you may not have that kind of relationship with your father.

[mamajag]

Maybe they will, but the parents can talk to their children about the appropriate way to react to such "badgering." So the impact (if any) of the wrong is done and over.

 

(I am also a little reluctant to take the paraphrased kids' descriptions, stated during "atheism" class, to a mom who is obviously ticked at the grandparents, to be a completely accurate view of what occurred.)

''

 

First off, it wasn't atheism class. It was the SOTW 1 chapter on the birth of Jesus. And yes, my kids said exactly what I wrote. Did it tick me off? Yes. Did I do a little talking about peer pressure and how to handle the situation if it happens again? Yes. I explained that ILs really, really believe it is important that everyone believe what they do because they believe we will suffer forever if we don't and that sometimes leads them to say or do things that we don't agree with. It's all I can do.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm not drawing conclusions, but I've lived in the world long enough to know how people act and think.

 

As have I. And I have a very hard time believing that someone who reads "discussing early Christianity in history" and turns it into "atheism class" in her responses is not bringing some of her own baggage into play here.

 

I guess I'm more trusting of what my children tell me and their perceptions of how it made them feel. I have doubted their version of things enough times and made excuses for people's intentions, only to find out later that their versions were spot on. Given the additional info the OP has provided, I'm even more inclined to believe the stories the children are telling. Those are some pretty fantastical stories to be making up in order to frame Grandma and Grandpa. And it's not as if we haven't heard enough stories about toxic family members or family members who expressly disregard parents' wishes. My own parents refused to believe that car seats were necessary until I put my foot down. I found out they'd been driving the kids on "short trips" without them, in spite of the fact that I'd purchased two carseats that lived specifically at their house.

 

So yeah, I'm going to tend to believe the OP. I've met plenty of people who will just go ahead and do what they want with other people's children.

[Scuff]

I'm a Christian and am all for grandparents taking kids to church. But, I would be very hesitant to let them have my kids at all after that. They overstepped huge boundaries and totally didn't respect your authority as the parents. I'd have a hard time leaving them with someone who I knew would do things I explicitly said not to do.

[Remudamom]

Coming from a Christian POV I have to wonder why your ils think that making your children say they accept Jesus has any validity whatsoever. That's not the way it works. And while I'm all for Christianity, saying they overstepped is a gross understatement!

[mamajag]

2--Your position on religion does not seem like you are actually allowing your kids to make a decision when they are older. Rather, you seem downright hostile and anti-religion. If you truly want your children to be able to evaluate their thoughts on God fairly someday, then you, too, need to treat the subject fairly. People around you have all manner of opinions about God, and because those opinions are so precious to them, those opinions find expression in the way people talk and the traditions they choose to uphold. If you condition your children specifically that this topic and those traditions are WRONG, then you actually are not giving them the freedom to choose that you claim you want them to have. Just food for thought.

 

In real life, when I'm not venting frustration at the complete lack of respect shown my family by the ILs, I do treat the subject fairly.

 

3--Your in-laws are behaving the way they are out of a deep-seated worry and anxiety for the grandchildren they love. They should NOT disrespect your rules as the parent. However, I think you could try harder to understand what is actually motivating them. Telling them that they cannot express their most cherished beliefs will naturally be very difficult for them. You need to also understand that your beliefs and your choices will sound to them like you are anti-God, and that their beloved grandchildren will suffer because you are conditioning them to separation from God. You may not intend to come across this way, but nevertheless, this is what they hear/see. This will cause anxiety.

 

They have the right to worry. They don't have the right to lie (isn't that a sin, anyway?) and undercut parental authority just because they are anxious. They chose a belief that causes that anxiety. There is no need for them to create anxiety in my kids to relieve theirs. That's ridiculous. Pray for the kids if you have to, but what they did was wrong. Talking about your beliefs is different from pressuring kids to say they take Jesus as savior so you'll sleep better at night.

 

My kids are often told one day they'll choose what they believe when they are older and have a bit more life experience. They are looking forward to making that choice and are active in reading about different beliefs and comparing them. Most recently they watched a several-hour documentary on Siddhartha and quite enjoyed it.

 

We aren't antireligion here. We just want the kids to not have the baggage of a religion someone else picked for them when they do finally make their choice.

[mamajag]

Making such a big deal about it, IMO, teaches kids to be intolerant as well as ignorant of different beliefs. Religion is just one part, but an integral part, of who someone is. I don't know how kids are expected to love and care for their grandparents if they are taught to disrespect and be offended by their religion (or lack thereof).

 

Telling my kids it's okay to refuse to convert to their religion despite peer pressure is teaching intolerance and disrespect? I'm never going to teach my kids that bowing to peer pressure is right on any issue. Ever.

[In the Rain]

I just found out about the whole "saving" thing yesterday. The incident happened a few months ago.

 

They're lying sickos not because of their religious beliefs but for their use of intimidation and guilt tripping towards a child that did not wish to join their group. Apparently she was promised ice cream and pizza after church if she'd just say it so they didn't have to worry about her soul any more. My girl stood her ground, and it explains a lot as to why the younger 2 are willing to go to the ILs but ever since the visit where they took the kids to church oldest does not want to go. She holds stuff in and just tries to deal with it herself. It isn't surprising that she would only just now admit to me what happened.

 

Your update is pretty alarming. Your dh should talk with them and tell them how their strong arm tactics have hurt their relationship with your oldest dd. Dh and I are Christians, and we didn't pressure our children "to make a statement of faith". Your inlaws must feel very desperate about the situation to even resort to bribery. :001_huh: I don't understand salvation to work that way. :confused: I wouldn't leave my children alone with them, since they have proven themselves to be deceptive and manipulative to the point that one of your children is uncomfortable.

 

I'm sorry this has happened to you. We've been there, too, unfortunately.

 

It is difficult, but not impossible to reverse the damage made by spiritual abusers like that. It is spiritual abuse to corner someone and try to force your beliefs upon them, further abuse to try to guilt them into making statements of faith. Your children were, in essence, captive to their proselytizing.

 

It would be a good idea to talk with the children to determine what was said to them and how it made them feel. Talk about those things in the way that best reflects your own views and which is appropriate to your children's maturity.

 

I would suggest trying to keep any judgment of the grandparents out of it. They are your relatives, and that will not change. I don't advocate making war with relatives, if at all possible. I would, however, refuse any more stay-overs with them unless you are there to supervise. Obviously, these people do not understand appropriate boundaries when it comes to religion or your rights and privileges as the parent.

 

:iagree: Well said.

[mamajag]

:iagree:

 

And SKL, I agree that it would be harmful to the kids to make a super-big deal about this, as if it's threatening for other people to have their own religious beliefs.

 

With the kids it's not a big deal beyond a conversation about peer pressure and how the IL's beliefs are such that they want everyone they love to join their religion and be with them forever.

 

Personally, it IS a big deal, but I think I've done all I can because it was part of an incident that was already dealt with. They know another incident like this will be a relationship-severing event (my DH's words).

[Parrothead]

Wow! I have two thoughts on this.

 

First Jesus said, "Let the children come to me." Not, "Browbeat and force the children into believing in me." It is my personal opinion that Jesus might be just a tad miffed at these grandparents.

 

Second, I have to wonder if those who think what the grandparents did has any merit would feel the same if the children were taken against the parents express wishes to a Pagan Circle, a Buddhist monastery or a Indian temple and coerced into saying they believe in the Goddess, Buddha, or Brahman.

 

Personally I think the grandparents were wrong in the extreme. I also think that things like this is another thing that gives Christians a bad name. But that is for the other threads on the subject.

 

Mamajag, I do hope that your children suffer no lasting ill-effects from such disturbing behavior from people who they should have been able to trust. I'm also terribly sorry you suffered so at the hands of someone who you should have been able to trust. :grouphug:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:iagree:

 

And SKL, I agree that it would be harmful to the kids to make a super-big deal about this, as if it's threatening for other people to have their own religious beliefs.

 

With the kids it's not a big deal beyond a conversation about peer pressure and how the IL's beliefs are such that they want everyone they love to join their religion and be with them forever.

 

Personally, it IS a big deal, but I think I've done all I can because it was part of an incident that was already dealt with. They know another incident like this will be a relationship-severing event (my DH's words).

 

Yes, that's just what I was saying in the rest of my post. That I would keep things calm for the kids but all the adults involved would know what a big deal it was by the time I was done with them.

[Harriet Vane]

In real life, when I'm not venting frustration at the complete lack of respect shown my family by the ILs, I do treat the subject fairly.

 

 

 

They have the right to worry. They don't have the right to lie (isn't that a sin, anyway?) and undercut parental authority just because they are anxious. They chose a belief that causes that anxiety. There is no need for them to create anxiety in my kids to relieve theirs. That's ridiculous. Pray for the kids if you have to, but what they did was wrong. Talking about your beliefs is different from pressuring kids to say they take Jesus as savior so you'll sleep better at night.

 

My kids are often told one day they'll choose what they believe when they are older and have a bit more life experience. They are looking forward to making that choice and are active in reading about different beliefs and comparing them. Most recently they watched a several-hour documentary on Siddhartha and quite enjoyed it.

 

We aren't antireligion here. We just want the kids to not have the baggage of a religion someone else picked for them when they do finally make their choice.

 

I appreciate your response.

 

I want to make it clear that in each of my posts on this thread I have affirmed that what the grandparents did was absolutely wrong. They should not lie or do things you have specifically asked (and they agreed) not to do.

 

In my post I think I was reacting to two things. One is that the tone of your OP gave me the impression of being anti-faith. Of course no one post can really encapsulate all of a situation, so your clarification is helpful.

 

The other thing I react to is my own, personal experience with others (more than one) in my life who have claimed to be allowing their children to make their own choice, but who in reality forbid faith and openly mock faith as being silly or stupid or for weaker individuals. My own experience in this colored my perception of your post.

[Catwoman]

They know another incident like this will be a relationship-severing event (my DH's words).

 

I'm getting the feeling that there's more to this story than we're hearing, because if religion is the only issue, I don't think you would probably want to sever the relationship over it, particularly when you can remedy the problem (for the most part, anyway) by supervising the kids whenever they are with the grandparents.

 

If you said you were completely and totally anti-religion, I would be better able to understand your "sever the relationship" position, but right now, I don't quite get it, because you've said that you're pretty tolerant.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems extreme to sever an otherwise good relationship because of one area of conflict. (If the area of conflict was that grandpa was a child molester, that would obviously be a different story!)

[SitLongTalkMuch]

Boundary violations, lying, manipulation, and coercion are not mitigated or excused because a person is "devout."

 

The behavior of the g'parents in the OP are not acceptable, period. End of story.

 

Any form of "please be understanding" is simply believing that your right to "believe" trumps a another family's right.

 

And the feedback that the OP's family is not *actually* offering the children a space in which to grow up and THEN decide was uncalled for.

 

Absolutely!

[scrapbookbuzz]

Personally, I am a devoted follower of Jesus Christ and I believe in Him as my much needed Savior. However, I do think your inlaws stepped over the line. There is no love in being disrespectful, which is what your inlaws were since they did not respect YOUR explicit directions. I understand their concern about your family but that was definitely not the way to handle it!

[Catwoman]

In my post I think I was reacting to two things. One is that the tone of your OP gave me the impression of being anti-faith. Of course no one post can really encapsulate all of a situation, so your clarification is helpful.

 

 

:iagree:

 

That was my initial impression, as well.

[mamajag]

I absolutely agree with you that you can't trust them! They knew your beliefs and your wishes, and they expressly violated them. That was wrong!

 

I just don't think that makes them "sickos." I really think you're over-reacting. I don't get the impression that they are mean or intentionally hurtful to your kids, yet it sounds like you really hate them right now. I can understand being angry, but I truly don't think the grandparents are the Face of Evil because of this.

 

If the incident happened a month ago, what has transpired between your kids and the in-laws since that time? Have there been any more religious references? I think you should definitely talk with the kids to find out if anything else has happened, just for your own peace of mind.

 

Again, I'm not criticizing you for being upset. I just think you're vilifying the in-laws because of the religion thing, without considering whether or not they have always been good grandparents in other ways. Obviously, you knew they were very religious people. If they are as fanatically religious as you describe them, well, honestly, I think it may have been a bit naive of you and your dh to think that they would never discuss their faith with your kids. (I do agree that they were way over-the-top with the demand that the kids say they accepted Jesus as their savior, though -- that would make me incredibly angry, too. And I think it's pretty creepy that an ice cream reward would be offered for their compliance.)

 

We expected a discussion to happen at some point, and in fact years ago had an issue where the kids were made to watch kids videos on Jesus and somehow came home afraid of hell. ILs behaved for years after that conversation but only recently have we started to have trouble. We thought back then that the message had been sent. I don't care actually that they went to church. I am angry beyond anything I've felt recently because my daughter was pressured to convert. That bit right there makes me angry to the core because I wanted to protect my kids from that sort of bullying. Being part of a certain religion should never be a requirement for grandparents giving approval and/or treats to a grandchild. It makes me ill to think of it.

 

This is the first of many boundary issues. They mean well as grandparents, but there is just no concept of boundaries or sensitivity to my 8yo's GI issue or her embarrassment by it. The last incident involved her yelling across a birthday party about whether she had done #2 or needed a suppository and not understanding why 8yo was in tears. "It's a fact of her life she needs to accept." It doesn't need to be broadcast.

 

I would also suggest that your dh speak with his parents about this -- more firmly than ever before -- they are his parents, so let him deal with them.

 

He has on several occasions. They are still trying to convert him. :confused: Whenever he talks to them it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm the only one they take seriously. They've walked on DH for too long.

[Catwoman]

 

This is the first of many boundary issues. They mean well as grandparents, but there is just no concept of boundaries or sensitivity to my 8yo's GI issue or her embarrassment by it. The last incident involved her yelling across a birthday party about whether she had done #2 or needed a suppository and not understanding why 8yo was in tears. "It's a fact of her life she needs to accept." It doesn't need to be broadcast.

 

OK, this is starting to make a lot more sense to me now. I was thinking at first that you were over-reacting to the situation, but now it seems more like this was the "final straw that broke the camel's back" type of thing. I probably have been even more upset about the idiotic birthday party comment -- that was horrible!!!

 

I was picturing your in-laws as being nice people who were overzealous about their religion, but it sounds like they're not really all that nice, either.

 

So I guess I have to change my position and ask you why you've ever let your kids be alone with them. ;)

Edited October 10, 2012 by Catwoman

[Parrothead]

We expected a discussion to happen at some point, and in fact years ago had an issue where the kids were made to watch kids videos on Jesus and somehow came home afraid of hell. ILs behaved for years after that conversation but only recently have we started to have trouble. We thought back then that the message had been sent. I don't care actually that they went to church. I am angry beyond anything I've felt recently because my daughter was pressured to convert. That bit right there makes me angry to the core because I wanted to protect my kids from that sort of bullying. Being part of a certain religion should never be a requirement for grandparents giving approval and/or treats to a grandchild. It makes me ill to think of it.

 

This is the first of many boundary issues. They mean well as grandparents, but there is just no concept of boundaries or sensitivity to my 8yo's GI issue or her embarrassment by it. The last incident involved her yelling across a birthday party about whether she had done #2 or needed a suppository and not understanding why 8yo was in tears. "It's a fact of her life she needs to accept." It doesn't need to be broadcast.

 

 

 

He has on several occasions. They are still trying to convert him. :confused: Whenever he talks to them it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm the only one they take seriously. They've walked on DH for too long.

With this additional information, I believe limited supervised visits should be what happens next for years to come.

[Catwoman]

With this additional information, I believe limited supervised visits should be what happens next for years to come.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm glad we know more of the story now, because I was completely misreading the situation until mamajag clarified things for us.

[nukeswife]

I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but I feel like there's some minimizing going on here. And I do wonder, if the situations were reversed and the grandparents took the kids to a secular humanism meeting and tried to get the kids to accept that there is no god and Jesus is a myth, how strongly religious parents would react to this deception, and how they'd view the grandparents' inevitable regular sharing of their deeply held atheist beliefs.

:iagree:

 

Boundary violations, lying, manipulation, and coercion are not mitigated or excused because a person is "devout."

 

The behavior of the g'parents in the OP are not acceptable, period. End of story.

 

Any form of "please be understanding" is simply believing that your right to "believe" trumps a another family's right.

 

And the feedback that the OP's family is not *actually* offering the children a space in which to grow up and THEN decide was uncalled for.

 

:iagree:

 

To the OP, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I would be livid myself.