How would you handle this?

[LucyStoner]

Bribing them to be saved? I don't even see how, if your ILs are anxious about their salvation, they could possibly see this as valid or in any way reducing their anxiety. Saved because you want to eat pizza? Um. Ok.

 

I know kids whose grandparents have secretly baptized them. It is outrageous to try and force beliefs counter to the parents' beliefs on little kids. I am sorry you are dealing with this. I tend to agree that they should not be left unsupervised with your kids.

[TranquilMind]

mamajag: They're lying sickos not because of their religious beliefs but for their use of intimidation and guilt tripping towards a child that did not wish to join their group. Apparently she was promised ice cream and pizza after church if she'd just say it so they didn't have to worry about her soul any more.

 

This is really hard to believe, that it happened as it was related to you months after the fact. Kids tend to say things that make sense to them but sound really, really awful.

 

Case in point: My kid, when he was 9, once told a friend that we had "sex movies" in our home. The friend stopped associating with us immediately. We lost our friends and he lost his.

 

What actually happened, when the real facts came out: He found an old copy of the Vacation movie, with Chevy Chase (from 40 years ago, and NOT a "sex movie") and apparently someone undresses there in a closet or something. I don't remember. To my 9 year old child's mind, undressing was involved so this must be a "sex movie" that other 9 year old boys must have discussed somewhere, because boys do that kind of thing. He wanted to be "cool", so he shared this information. We were able to patch it up with the friends, who also erroneously took the word of another kid the same age without getting the actual facts. We would NEVER have "sex movies" in our house! Yikes.

 

So, you need to ASK the parents if they promised ice cream and pizza after church IF and BECAUSE the child would repeat some words about Jesus being her savior (not sure why they thought this would be an actual conversion, since it is coerced but....). Maybe they were going out for pizza anyway, and the parents said something to hurry her along. Who knows. You have a one-sided version from a child, so you need to talk about it.

 

 

 

Perhaps lying sickos is harsh, but how do you trust people after a stunt like that and after realizing it went a lot farther than they told you?

 

Yes, it is exceedingly harsh, especially when you have heard only one side.

 

 

How do you even answer the church's assertion that the Holocaust didn't happen?

 

:confused: I'm not even sure how this entered in here. Perhaps I missed a post. But this is just weird. I'd research the church, show the kids what the church says (if it indeed teaches this, and it wasn't one crazy guy talking), and then show the kids the evidence of the Holocaust.

 

 

Apparently they told the kids it was their only shot not to go to hell because we refuse to tell them the truth.

 

Maybe they did, or maybe that was just how what they said was interpreted by a child. You need to address it with the parents.

Edited October 10, 2012 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

It would be a good idea to talk with the children to determine what was said to them and how it made them feel. Talk about those things in the way that best reflects your own views and which is appropriate to your children's maturity.

 

I would suggest trying to keep any judgment of the grandparents out of it. They are your relatives, and that will not change. I don't advocate making war with relatives, if at all possible. I would, however, refuse any more stay-overs with them unless you are there to supervise. Obviously, these people do not understand appropriate boundaries when it comes to religion or your rights and privileges as the parent.

 

You'd not talk to the parents, but only to the children? That's not making sense to me.

[TranquilMind]

I am just saying I am reluctant to treat the statements as 100% accurate. I am not saying anyone "is" lying or biased or anything. I don't always believe what my own kids tell me without leaving room for the possibility that (a) they misunderstood, (b) they are saying it to please me, © they are saying it because it sounds interesting, (d) they aren't remembering accurately, (e) they are mixing it up with some other memory, etc.

 

The statements in question are particularly suspect since they involve a young child reporting on the motives or feelings of an adult they are being raised to question if not disrespect. And it is pretty clear that this is a hot button of their mom's and the kids are not blind to that.

 

It could have happened exactly as stated, but my reaction here is tempered by the fact that it might not have.

 

Exactly. I just posted on the same issue, and used an example from our own lives where our kid definitely misunderstood something and related it to others, causing us all kinds of grief.

 

You MUST talk to the parents about this, head on, and directly. You must tell them what was related to you, and ask what happened from their perspective. Then you lay down the law. To accept your kids's word without listening to the other side is just wrong.

[TranquilMind]

You seem to want to 100% believe the reported one-sided version of this event. I prefer to withhold judgment since the other side of it isn't here to testify, and also, because this is a very charged subject and something that happened a long time ago (in kid years).

 

.

 

Thank you for stating the blatantly obvious that is being overlooked here.

 

Unbelievable.

[BigMamaBird]

I am a conservative Christian whose faith is a central point of my life. That said, YOU are their parent. YOU said, don't do XYZ. They went straight out and did XYZ. That is unacceptable and if I were you, my kids would not be alone with these people till they were a great deal older . . . if ever. :glare:

[TranquilMind]

Honestly, in a situation like that (if he really is dying,) I probably would have let him talk. When my dad was sick, I would have listened to him talk about whatever he wanted, if I thought it would ease his mind in any way.

 

 

No freaking kidding. I can hardly believe the vitriol I am reading here.

[mamajag]

OK, this is starting to make a lot more sense to me now. I was thinking at first that you were over-reacting to the situation, but now it seems more like this was the "final straw that broke the camel's back" type of thing. I probably have been even more upset about the idiotic birthday party comment -- that was horrible!!!

 

I was picturing your in-laws as being nice people who were overzealous about their religion, but it sounds like they're not really all that nice, either.

 

So I guess I have to change my position and ask you why you've ever let your kids be alone with them. ;)

 

I wonder that myself, honestly. ;)

 

The birthday party thing was handled by 8yo. I was told she marched over in tears and told MIL that those issues weren't something polite people discussed in public and that she would appreciate it if MIL would discuss those matters in private. MIL was mortified. :D

[goldberry]

I am a Christian, but I would have THOUGHT that a majority of homeschooling parents would be in support of the ultimate authority of the parent to decide what happens with their kids. (Except in cases of harm, obviously.)

 

That's what this is about, not religion.

[BigMamaBird]

I am a Christian, but I would have THOUGHT that a majority of homeschooling parents would be in support of the ultimate authority of the parent to decide what happens with their kids. (Except in cases of harm, obviously.)

 

That's what this is about, not religion.

 

:iagree:, yeah, I'm kind of scratching my head here too.

[mamajag]

Exactly. I just posted on the same issue, and used an example from our own lives where our kid definitely misunderstood something and related it to others, causing us all kinds of grief.

 

You MUST talk to the parents about this, head on, and directly. You must tell them what was related to you, and ask what happened from their perspective. Then you lay down the law. To accept your kids's word without listening to the other side is just wrong.

 

I know what the other side is: We sent them to Sunday school and they learned about Noah and the Ark. They've already proven themselves to be liars with the stunt they pulled taking them to church. Why would I believe a word coming out of their mouths? I questioned my 8yo enough about this that I do believe her. She has been avoiding them since this incident. I knew something happened, but I didn't know what.

 

The situations in which I would trust the ILs' word over that of my daughter are very rare indeed.

[Audrey]

You'd not talk to the parents, but only to the children? That's not making sense to me.

 

 

If I were the OP (and I have been in her shoes) I would want to know, from my child, what happened to my child, and then discuss that with my child. The grandparents are already confirmed liars. Their story was a lie. It makes no sense to me why you would think their story has any bearing on how I would need to address the issue with my child.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Audrey

[Jennifer3141]

If I were the OP (and I have been in her shoes) I would want to know, from my child, what happened to my child, and then discuss that with my child. The grandparents are already confirmed liars. Their story was a lie. It makes no sense to me why you would think their story has any bearing on how I would need to address the issue with my child.

 

 

The idea of going to the parents first makes ZERO sense to me. They lied! When you ask a liar for the story of what happened, they are going to LIE.

 

The more I think about this, the sicker it is for the OP.

 

So the ILs have no problems with basically breaking into the OP's house to get church clothes. Under what other circumstances would they justify doing that again?

 

I still love my whacko parents but there are times I don't want ANYONE in my home. I think I'd have to change the locks!! Would they have stolen a key and copied it in the past?? I don't think I could sleep knowing that people who have such boundary issues have had access to my entire flipping life and home. :(

[Jennifer3141]

Honestly, in a situation like that (if he really is dying,) I probably would have let him talk. When my dad was sick, I would have listened to him talk about whatever he wanted, if I thought it would ease his mind in any way.

 

But my dad and I were very close, and you may not have that kind of relationship with your father.

 

 

Well my father does have cancer. But he's got about 5-7 years before the cancer is going to get him. So no, you don't get a pass on bad behavior because you could die in a few years. I'm 41. I could be dead in a few years.

 

We just don't play games like that with our kids. And my paganism and DH's atheism are central to our world viewpoints. Our parents had their turn to try indoctrinating us to Jesus. It didn't work. Tough cookies. Move on and accept it or stay out of our lives. Their choice to make but yes, we expect the people in our lives to obey our boundaries.

[bettyandbob]

OK I read this whole thing. I gotta say from the first post I knew immediately you were doing SOTW not "atheism class" . Clearly the person who came up with that has a tilted opinion. I also thought it is completely understandable that that is when it came up.

 

OP, do not allow your dc to visit ILs unsupervised. They are liars and cannot be trusted. I'm a Christian. I would be completely out of my mind if a grandparent or family friend decided to teach my dc that my faith was wrong. Your dc are yours only and only you get to decide that. You were very clear with them on the issue and they lied and schemed.

 

I think I would even cut all contact for a little bit. At least until I regained my composure so I didn't become an irrational b**** in their presence, which what I do when I'm mad. After said break, I would resume contact in the form of family gatherings (birthdays, Fourth of July) and maybe invite them to view dcs' soccer games or piano recitals. It would be limited and on the surface.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm not drawing conclusions, but I've lived in the world long enough to know how people act and think. OP made it clear that she has a lot of baggage as far as religion goes. Kids pick up on stuff.

 

You seem to want to 100% believe the reported one-sided version of this event. I prefer to withhold judgment since the other side of it isn't here to testify, and also, because this is a very charged subject and something that happened a long time ago (in kid years).

 

It is not one-sided when they admitted totaling them to church against the will of the parents. They improperly entered the home to acquire church clothes. It is hardly a stretch to think they asked the kids to pray the sinner's prayer so that they could go to heaven. That is hardly something that unchurched children would pluck out of their air.

[Desert Rat]

Boundary violations, lying, manipulation, and coercion are not mitigated or excused because a person is "devout."

 

The behavior of the g'parents in the OP are not acceptable, period. End of story.

 

Any form of "please be understanding" is simply believing that your right to "believe" trumps a another family's right.

 

And the feedback that the OP's family is not *actually* offering the children a space in which to grow up and THEN decide was uncalled for.

 

:iagree: As always, Joanne.

As a non-believer raised by a minister, we battled this early on. I think my parents thought once I had children of my own I'd come back to the church. Nope.

And religious books, toys, etc. that were given were quickly shelved or given away. It's not nice to say, "Oh, I understand what you believe, but I'm still doing xyz anyway because you're going to hell." Not nice.

 

OP, I'd be livid. I would make sure they didn't watch them Sunday mornings anymore. Sad.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I dont get why some think the kids are overreacting, or not telling an accurate version.

 

When we visited my mother out of state about 4 years ago, we had a very scary incident.

 

My mother asked me to go to the back room of the beauty shop to grab something (nothing i had not done before). She followed behind and there was a woman who had come to the back room from the outside entrance. When my mother got in the room, she locked the door! She said that since i would not leave the kids alone with her, she was just going to make me pray with them.

 

The woman started talking and all i remember being said was that my children would be taken if i didnt give them to god. God was going to physically take them. She grabbed my son's head (i was holding him) and started praying "in tongues" very loudly. Ds started crying. Dd was upset.

 

Both my mother and this woman tried to take my kids out of my arms (my mother repeating "just give me the baby").

 

I took the kids out the back door, to my car, and straight to my grandmother's house.

 

This all happened in just a couple minutes and my kids still do not ever want to be alone with her (me either!). The church that she goes to likes to get the kids to go to a different room to accept jesus, and on their way out, they get candy, but only after accepting jesus.

[Audrey]

I dont get why some think the kids are overreacting, or not telling an accurate version.

 

When we visited my mother out of state about 4 years ago, we had a very scary incident.

 

My mother asked me to go to the back room of the beauty shop to grab something (nothing i had not done before). She followed behind and there was a woman who had come to the back room from the outside entrance. When my mother got in the room, she locked the door! She said that since i would not leave the kids alone with her, she was just going to make me pray with them.

 

The woman started talking and all i remember being said was that my children would be taken if i didnt give them to god. God was going to physically take them. She grabbed my son's head (i was holding him) and started praying "in tongues" very loudly. Ds started crying. Dd was upset.

 

Both my mother and this woman tried to take my kids out of my arms (my mother repeating "just give me the baby").

 

I took the kids out the back door, to my car, and straight to my grandmother's house.

 

This all happened in just a couple minutes and my kids still do not ever want to be alone with her (me either!). The church that she goes to likes to get the kids to go to a different room to accept jesus, and on their way out, they get candy, but only after accepting jesus.

 

 

:eek: Yowza!! That tops the list of crazy things I've ever heard.

 

The incident with my son involved my fil's wife (who is not my mil -- my mil was my husband's mother, who died 10 years ago -- fil remarried a year later). My son was 6 at the time. They were watching him for us for the day because we both had to be working elsewhere that day. She told fil she was just going to take him to town for a little treat. She took him to church where she thought she was going to convince the priest to baptise him. The priest, who I had been tutoring in English (he was from Congo) and had become somewhat of a friend by that point, knew very well that neither I nor my dh were Catholic, and that I, in particular, wasn't any brand of Christian. He refused to do it. He sent my son to another room to talk to my fil's wife and tell her what a completely wrong thing she had done and tried to do. On the way home, she told my son that he'd perish in hell if he didn't get baptised.

 

When I came home, dh was already home, and had already heard a bit from ds. We tried to sort it out and got most of the story from ds. Later, we got a call from the priest, who told us everything that transpired at the church and what he thought of that. I appreciated that he respected a parent's rights in this matter, and that he respected me as a person.

 

When we confronted my fil's wife, she denied having ever taken him to town. We never discussed it further, but there has also never been another single minute that she is around him that one of us isn't right there. Now that he's 13, I think we don't have to be quite as diligent. He still remembers that incident -- and not fondly.

 

Since then, she has made other efforts to proselytize. I choose to try to keep the peace. Sometimes that means laughing it off. Sometimes that means having to say "back off." Most of the time, it means we don't spend hardly any time with them at all if we can possibly avoid it. We wish we could trust her, but she just keeps dashing any hopes for that.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Audrey

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I dont get why some think the kids are overreacting, or not telling an accurate version.

 

When we visited my mother out of state about 4 years ago, we had a very scary incident.

 

My mother asked me to go to the back room of the beauty shop to grab something (nothing i had not done before). She followed behind and there was a woman who had come to the back room from the outside entrance. When my mother got in the room, she locked the door! She said that since i would not leave the kids alone with her, she was just going to make me pray with them.

 

The woman started talking and all i remember being said was that my children would be taken if i didnt give them to god. God was going to physically take them. She grabbed my son's head (i was holding him) and started praying "in tongues" very loudly. Ds started crying. Dd was upset.

 

Both my mother and this woman tried to take my kids out of my arms (my mother repeating "just give me the baby").

 

I took the kids out the back door, to my car, and straight to my grandmother's house.

 

This all happened in just a couple minutes and my kids still do not ever want to be alone with her (me either!). The church that she goes to likes to get the kids to go to a different room to accept jesus, and on their way out, they get candy, but only after accepting jesus.

 

:eek: Yowza!! That tops the list of crazy things I've ever heard.

 

The incident with my son involved my fil's wife (who is not my mil -- my mil was my husband's mother, who died 10 years ago -- fil remarried a year later). My son was 6 at the time. They were watching him for us for the day because we both had to be working elsewhere that day. She told fil she was just going to take him to town for a little treat. She took him to church where she thought she was going to convince the priest to baptise him. The priest, who I had been tutoring in English (he was from Congo) and had become somewhat of a friend by that point, knew very well that neither I nor my dh were Catholic, and that I, in particular, wasn't any brand of Christian. He refused to do it. He sent my son to another room to talk to my fil's wife and tell her what a completely wrong thing she had done and tried to do. On the way home, she told my son that he'd perish in hell if he didn't get baptised.

 

When I came home, dh was already home, and had already heard a bit from ds. We tried to sort it out and got most of the story from ds. Later, we got a call from the priest, who told us everything that transpired at the church and what he thought of that. I appreciated that he respected a parent's rights in this matter, and that he respected me as a person.

 

When we confronted my fil's wife, she denied having ever taken him to town. We never discussed it further, but there has also never been another single minute that she is around him that one of us isn't right there. Now that he's 13, I think we don't have to be quite as diligent. He still remembers that incident -- and not fondly.

 

Honestly...WHAT is wrong with people?!!!

[Catwoman]

When we visited my mother out of state about 4 years ago, we had a very scary incident.

 

My mother asked me to go to the back room of the beauty shop to grab something (nothing i had not done before). She followed behind and there was a woman who had come to the back room from the outside entrance. When my mother got in the room, she locked the door! She said that since i would not leave the kids alone with her, she was just going to make me pray with them.

 

The woman started talking and all i remember being said was that my children would be taken if i didnt give them to god. God was going to physically take them. She grabbed my son's head (i was holding him) and started praying "in tongues" very loudly. Ds started crying. Dd was upset.

 

Both my mother and this woman tried to take my kids out of my arms (my mother repeating "just give me the baby").

 

I took the kids out the back door, to my car, and straight to my grandmother's house.

 

This all happened in just a couple minutes and my kids still do not ever want to be alone with her (me either!). The church that she goes to likes to get the kids to go to a different room to accept jesus, and on their way out, they get candy, but only after accepting jesus.

 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

That is absolutely horrifying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Catwoman]

Well my father does have cancer. But he's got about 5-7 years before the cancer is going to get him. So no, you don't get a pass on bad behavior because you could die in a few years. I'm 41. I could be dead in a few years.

 

That's totally different -- I was picturing him on his deathbed, or having a few months to live or something like that. I figured if that was the case, it would be no big deal to listen, nod, and smile, but nobody should have to do that for YEARS! (I know I sure wouldn't!)

[Catwoman]

The incident with my son involved my fil's wife (who is not my mil -- my mil was my husband's mother, who died 10 years ago -- fil remarried a year later). My son was 6 at the time. They were watching him for us for the day because we both had to be working elsewhere that day. She told fil she was just going to take him to town for a little treat. She took him to church where she thought she was going to convince the priest to baptise him. The priest, who I had been tutoring in English (he was from Congo) and had become somewhat of a friend by that point, knew very well that neither I nor my dh were Catholic, and that I, in particular, wasn't any brand of Christian. He refused to do it. He sent my son to another room to talk to my fil's wife and tell her what a completely wrong thing she had done and tried to do. On the way home, she told my son that he'd perish in hell if he didn't get baptised.

 

When I came home, dh was already home, and had already heard a bit from ds. We tried to sort it out and got most of the story from ds. Later, we got a call from the priest, who told us everything that transpired at the church and what he thought of that. I appreciated that he respected a parent's rights in this matter, and that he respected me as a person.

 

When we confronted my fil's wife, she denied having ever taken him to town. We never discussed it further, but there has also never been another single minute that she is around him that one of us isn't right there. Now that he's 13, I think we don't have to be quite as diligent. He still remembers that incident -- and not fondly.

 

Since then, she has made other efforts to proselytize. I choose to try to keep the peace. Sometimes that means laughing it off. Sometimes that means having to say "back off." Most of the time, it means we don't spend hardly any time with them at all if we can possibly avoid it. We wish we could trust her, but she just keeps dashing any hopes for that.

 

YIKES!!! Your FIL's wife sounds like a nut. A lying, fanatical nut. What does your FIL think about the things she says and does?

 

I was raised Catholic, and I have to tell you that I never knew of anyone who was like that. I guess every religion has its fanatics. Sadly, you've got one of them living with your FIL. :ack2:

[Jennifer3141]

Honestly...WHAT is wrong with people?!!!

 

 

I have ZERO idea. Why would you jeopardize your relationship with your child and your grandchildren over something that cannot be proven to be correct??? Maybe there is a god but maybe you're worshipping the wrong one!! Maybe there isn't a god. I just cannot fathom ever doing something like this to my children and taking the risk that they would cut me from their lives forever.

[Sharon37127]

I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but I feel like there's some minimizing going on here. And I do wonder, if the situations were reversed and the grandparents took the kids to a secular humanism meeting and tried to get the kids to accept that there is no god and Jesus is a myth, how strongly religious parents would react to this deception, and how they'd view the grandparents' inevitable regular sharing of their deeply held atheist beliefs.

 

*This is coming from a God-fearing Christian mother raising 4 children to love the Lord.*

 

This entire situation made me sick. How anyone can think this is ok is beyond me. I get the whole "this is significant to the grandparents and they are only sharing their heart," but I really burns me when people try to be the Holy Spirit in others lives- whether it's salvation or rebuke. You cannot bribe, chastise, trick, manipulate, or deceive someone into a truly genuine relationship with God whether they are 6yo or 60yo. It just doesn't work. Like the kid that just told the grandparent what they wanted to hear so they would leave the child alone. That is the result of this kind of manipulation. This child will grow up thinking all Christians are liars (they did lie to the parents). The Holy Spirit is the only "person" that can move a person to true faith and it doesn't involve wagging a piece of candy in the child's face. :banghead:

 

With that said, as a Christian mom I try to look at from the others' perspective. If this someone of a different faith infringing on my parental choices for my children, well then- :leaving:. We are outta there!

[teamturner]

I haven't read all the replies, but wanted to chime in. I am a Christian and I think your il's are in the wrong on several levels. They should not have taken your dc when you expressly said they may not. However, I do think it unreasonable to expect them to miss church service because they were watching your kids for you. I realize you don't leave them on Sundays or Wednesdays anymore which is probably for the best.

 

I also think it was horrible that they told your dc they would go to hell if they didn't say the words they were told to say. They are terribly misguided if they think saying words you do not mean or understand means you are suddenly a follower of Christ. Shame on them for saying those things to your dc!! They attend a church that does not reflect many of the Christian teachings that I believe in. Pressuring someone to say the words to accept Christ is far from the gospel as it is presented in the Bible.

 

I don't think you should cut them completely out of your lives, but you should not leave your dc with them w/o you there also.

[Sharon37127]

Eh, some people have this thing where they believe "say the magic words and bam! You are saved until kingdom comes" rather than in faith. Promising kids treats to say certain words in no way will "save" a child's soul.

 

Lying, deceiving, bribing...what kind of Christians are they??? (rhetorical question that should be answered by the grandparents, not here by you ;) )

 

Sorry- I wasn't trying to plagiarize you.

[Kirch]

I am a Christian, but I would have THOUGHT that a majority of homeschooling parents would be in support of the ultimate authority of the parent to decide what happens with their kids. (Except in cases of harm, obviously.)

 

That's what this is about, not religion.

 

:confused: I'm a bit confused by this post. The vast majority of those who have posted are completely aghast at what these grandparents did. There are only a couple of posters who are in any way arguing a different viewpoint, and even they agree that the grandparents overstepped. I haven't seen one post that even remotely implied that what the grandparents did was okay, and even those who posted that they could understand where the g-parents were coming from faith-wise said that the g-parents violated the parents' authority.

[Harriet Vane]

I dont get why some think the kids are overreacting, or not telling an accurate version.

 

When we visited my mother out of state about 4 years ago, we had a very scary incident.

 

My mother asked me to go to the back room of the beauty shop to grab something (nothing i had not done before). She followed behind and there was a woman who had come to the back room from the outside entrance. When my mother got in the room, she locked the door! She said that since i would not leave the kids alone with her, she was just going to make me pray with them.

 

The woman started talking and all i remember being said was that my children would be taken if i didnt give them to god. God was going to physically take them. She grabbed my son's head (i was holding him) and started praying "in tongues" very loudly. Ds started crying. Dd was upset.

 

Both my mother and this woman tried to take my kids out of my arms (my mother repeating "just give me the baby").

 

I took the kids out the back door, to my car, and straight to my grandmother's house.

 

This all happened in just a couple minutes and my kids still do not ever want to be alone with her (me either!). The church that she goes to likes to get the kids to go to a different room to accept jesus, and on their way out, they get candy, but only after accepting jesus.

 

:That's horrible. I'm so sorry this happened to you.

[Katy]

I only read the first 6 pages, but...

 

I guess I would be more concerned with their anger at the children for refusing than I would be for the attempted religious indoctrination.

 

I would make DH deal with it, because they're his parents. I would make sure they knew my past and history of religious manipulation. And they would no longer be alone with the children unless I was convinced the children had the strength of will to stand up for themselves and make whatever decision THEY want to make, not to let other people manipulate them.

 

And, as a Christian, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what happened to you, and I'm sorry for what's happened in your family.

 

I'm sure your inlaws meant well, they love your kids, but this was the wrong way to go about it. And that they thought it would be okay.... I suspect they're in a manipulative and abusive church. I can't imagine that any responsible person in ministry would recommend this. I can imagine them recommending to pray for you, and for you children, and possibly going out of their way in some way to prove to you that Christianity is not supposed to be about manipulation or evil control. Obviously that's not what happened. I'm sorry.

[Audrey]

YIKES!!! Your FIL's wife sounds like a nut. A lying, fanatical nut. What does your FIL think about the things she says and does?

 

I was raised Catholic, and I have to tell you that I never knew of anyone who was like that. I guess every religion has its fanatics. Sadly, you've got one of them living with your FIL. :ack2:

 

 

Most of the time, he refuses to acknowledge that there is anything amiss, but that is the way he deals with anything even remotely controversial.

[HomeschoolMamaOfTwo]

Wow, the whole situation is unbelievable! I would definitely not leave them alone with the kids again, it sounds like they do not respect your boundaries one bit. I'm sorry that you and your children are having to deal with this!

[Rivka]

I'm not picking on anyone in particular, but I feel like there's some minimizing going on here. And I do wonder, if the situations were reversed and the grandparents took the kids to a secular humanism meeting and tried to get the kids to accept that there is no god and Jesus is a myth, how strongly religious parents would react to this deception, and how they'd view the grandparents' inevitable regular sharing of their deeply held atheist beliefs.

 

:iagree: No one is going as far to say that it's okay, but there's a lot of "yes, but..." and "what's the big deal" in some posts from Christians.

 

I absolutely agree with you that you can't trust them! They knew your beliefs and your wishes, and they expressly violated them. That was wrong!

 

I just don't think that makes them "sickos." I really think you're over-reacting. I don't get the impression that they are mean or intentionally hurtful to your kids, yet it sounds like you really hate them right now. I can understand being angry, but I truly don't think the grandparents are the Face of Evil because of this. [...]

 

Again, I'm not criticizing you for being upset. I just think you're vilifying the in-laws because of the religion thing, without considering whether or not they have always been good grandparents in other ways.

 

I think that if you're Christian it can be very hard to understand how repellent the ideas of hell and ****ation are to many of us who aren't Christian, and how horrifying it can be for us to have our child's innocence sullied by someone who is trying to induce a fear of hell.

 

In my case, mercifully, it wasn't a relative - it was a nanny who, when my daughter was 4, introduced a lot of stuff about "God is watching to see if you behave," "God will be mad if you don't say your prayers," "The devil comes to take bad children to hell." We fired her the moment we found out, but I could not shrug it off as "Okay, that happened and it's over." I felt that it was a completely ugly and disgusting intrusion between my child and God.

 

We did a lot of talking about it, and fortunately, even at that age Alex was pretty strong in her faith development as a Unitarian-Universalist. It still stayed with her to some extent - not as something she believed, but as something she worried about and brought up, from time to time, for the next couple of years.

 

To say that the OP should just be able to shrug it off with, "Oh, well, they believe that and we believe a different thing, no big deal"... I don't mean to be offensive, because there are so many people here whom I like and respect, and whom I know believe in hell. But to me, the idea that God holds ****ation and eternal torment over humanity's heads to try and get us to love him is so repellent that it's like... well, probably like Satanism is to Christians. Like, "Oh well, honey, some people believe that God is evil and we believe God is good - isn't it interesting that everyone has different beliefs?"

 

My kids spend time with Christians - my whole family, for example, and Alex's Catholic best friend. They have a children's Bible and get exposed to some Christian stories and holidays, at home and at church. I want them to know the beautiful parts of Christianity. But if anyone tried to coerce them into believing that they are bad, unworthy, destined for punishment, and despised by God unless saved... I would be absolutely incandescent with rage.

[8circles]

Omg! Some of these stories are just horrible.

 

My MIL took my oldest for his "first comunion" behind our backs and that felt like a huge betrayal. The stories here are much worse. Im so sorry.:grouphug:

Edited October 11, 2012 by momoflaw

[Catwoman]

Most of the time, he refuses to acknowledge that there is anything amiss, but that is the way he deals with anything even remotely controversial.

 

What a nuisance! :glare:

[SKL]

It seems to me that people are making a lot of assumptions here and adding "facts" that may or may not have occurred.

 

The OP never said that the grandparents stated "we agree to not take the children to church, in respect of your wishes." If you read it as written, it's vague on that point. Sounds to me like the parents dropped the kids off without church clothes and there was an understanding (not a promise) that without church clothes, the kids couldn't attend church, and the grandparents could suck it up.

 

However, the grandparents had a key. Now if I had a key to my kids' house and I was taking care of their kids for 3 days, I would not think it a horrible thing to go there and get some clothes for the kids. Certainly not creepy like it's being made out here.

 

OK, so they got the clothes, took the kids to church (Sunday School) and then they TOLD the parents. Not sure where the "lie" comes in. Apparently there is an assumed lie because the children were exposed to some sort of "I believe in Jesus" recitation, but it doesn't say where or when that happened. Maybe it's something the grandparents say in their own home. At any rate, they told the parents they took the kids to church, so how are they lying sickos?

 

Also, being included in a statement of belief in the context of a group recitation or pre-written prayer is not the same as being coerced to convert.

 

Now I read some of the above stories and I agree that there are some really extreme people out there. There are also some grannies who really overstep their boundaries in a variety of areas. But what I read from the OP is not to that extreme. The gps took the kids to church and told the parents. Months later the kids remembered being invited/asked to repeat some sort of formulaic creed or prayer once. That just doesn't rise to the level of kidnaping the kids to forcibly convert them.

[Catwoman]

I think that if you're Christian it can be very hard to understand how repellent the ideas of hell and ****ation are to many of us who aren't Christian, and how horrifying it can be for us to have our child's innocence sullied by someone who is trying to induce a fear of hell.

 

I think you are mistaking me for someone who believes in that sort of thing. :confused:

 

I have never believed in any of that fire and brimstone stuff. No one ever said anything like, "God will be angry if..." or "You'll burn in h*ll if..." or "You won't go to heaven if you don't get up in front of the room and accept Jesus as your savior." We weren't raised that way at all. My mom always told us that if anyone ever said anything like that to us, that we should ignore them because they were nuts. :D (Subtlety was not Mom's strong point. ;))

 

In my case, mercifully, it wasn't a relative - it was a nanny who, when my daughter was 4, introduced a lot of stuff about "God is watching to see if you behave," "God will be mad if you don't say your prayers," "The devil comes to take bad children to hell." We fired her the moment we found out, but I could not shrug it off as "Okay, that happened and it's over." I felt that it was a completely ugly and disgusting intrusion between my child and God.

 

I would have fired her, too!!! What rotten things to say to a child!!! That's the kind of creepy stuff that can stick in a kid's head for years! :angry:

 

I have no patience whatsoever for people who try to manipulate children by threatening them with God's wrath.

 

My kids spend time with Christians - my whole family, for example, and Alex's Catholic best friend. They have a children's Bible and get exposed to some Christian stories and holidays, at home and at church. I want them to know the beautiful parts of Christianity. But if anyone tried to coerce them into believing that they are bad, unworthy, destined for punishment, and despised by God unless saved... I would be absolutely incandescent with rage.

 

:iagree:

 

If you read the rest of my posts to this thread, I changed my mind about the grandparents as the OP posted more details about them, and about their relationship with the kids.

 

Originally, I was thinking that they were nice, sweet grandparents who were trying to share their faith with the kids. (I wasn't thinking of them being fanatical at that time.) I thought they were out of line to do it when they had been forbidden to do it, but I was thinking it would be a shame for kids to lose a relationship with loving grandparents over one (admittedly big) issue. I thought the problem might be solved by simply never leaving the kids alone with the grandparents any more. But as the OP posted more details, I started to realize why she was so upset, and that it wasn't just about one or two incidents, but rather that it was a "straw that broke the camel's back" type of thing.

[Catwoman]

The OP never said that the grandparents stated "we agree to not take the children to church, in respect of your wishes."

 

I haven't gone back and re-read the OP, but I thought she said that the grandparents had specifically agreed that they would miss church on the Sunday when they were watching the kids. I could be remembering it incorrectly, though, and I'm too lazy to go look!

 

However, the grandparents had a key. Now if I had a key to my kids' house and I was taking care of their kids for 3 days, I would not think it a horrible thing to go there and get some clothes for the kids. Certainly not creepy like it's being made out here.

 

:iagree: I don't think that part is an issue at all, and I don't understand the controversy, either. They didn't break in -- they had keys, so I assume that they thought it would be OK to go in and get clothes for the kids. There was no looting involved.

 

Now I read some of the above stories and I agree that there are some really extreme people out there. There are also some grannies who really overstep their boundaries in a variety of areas. But what I read from the OP is not to that extreme. The gps took the kids to church and told the parents. Months later the kids remembered being invited/asked to repeat some sort of formulaic creed or prayer once. That just doesn't rise to the level of kidnaping the kids to forcibly convert them.

 

After reading all of the OP's posts today, I honestly believe that this is less about the current incident, and more about a longstanding hostility that is finally coming to a head. According to the OP, there have been other boundary issues, and the grandparents have said some unpleasant/embarrassing/inappropriate things to the kids that have had nothing to do with religion, so I really think this is about a lot more than a conflict over religious issues.

 

Admittedly, I'm still not excited about the "lying sickos" term for the grandparents, but at least I now know that the OP's anger isn't only about the few incidents she mentioned in her first post, but that it's more likely that there have been problems in the relationship with the in-laws for years, and she was finally ready to explode about it. I'll bet it has been a long time coming. As I have said all along, I still think the big issue here is about the grandparents not respecting boundaries and intentionally going against the wishes of the OP and her dh. I think all of the discussion about what Christians feel about this vs. what Non-Christians feel about it is completely irrelevant, and only serves to muddy the waters and overlook the real problem, which is that the OP believes she can't trust her in-laws.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Catwoman

[Rivka]

It seems to me that people are making a lot of assumptions here and adding "facts" that may or may not have occurred.

 

The OP never said that the grandparents stated "we agree to not take the children to church, in respect of your wishes." If you read it as written, it's vague on that point. Sounds to me like the parents dropped the kids off without church clothes and there was an understanding (not a promise) that without church clothes, the kids couldn't attend church, and the grandparents could suck it up.

 

No, the original post is perfectly clear: "We had discussed it, and they said they had no issue missing church in exchange for 3 days with the kids." They specifically discussed it in relation to this visit; hence, the mention of the visit length. The grandparents said they had no issue missing church.There was not a coy game on the parents' part about not sending church clothes so "oops, hee hee, guess the kids won't be able to go to church" - it was precisely and entirely the other way around: "Oh, you gave us a key for emergencies? Oops, kids have no church clothes, that's an emergency!" (wink wink)

 

OK, so they got the clothes, took the kids to church (Sunday School) and then they TOLD the parents. Not sure where the "lie" comes in. Apparently there is an assumed lie because the children were exposed to some sort of "I believe in Jesus" recitation, but it doesn't say where or when that happened. Maybe it's something the grandparents say in their own home. At any rate, they told the parents they took the kids to church, so how are they lying sickos?

 

Also, being included in a statement of belief in the context of a group recitation or pre-written prayer is not the same as being coerced to convert. [...] Months later the kids remembered being invited/asked to repeat some sort of formulaic creed or prayer once.

 

No. Again from the OP: "MIL and FIL tried to get me to say I believed Jesus was my savior and got mad when I wouldn't." From post #61: "Apparently she was promised ice cream and pizza after church if she'd just say it so they didn't have to worry about her soul any more" and "Apparently they told the kids it was their only shot not to go to hell because we refuse to tell them the truth."

 

There is no way that can be stretched to mean that the girls were simply present during a rote corporate prayer or creed and were "invited" or "included" to follow along. No. Way. This is recognizably an attempt to get the kids to personally and individually pray the "sinner's prayer." Coercion is clearly present in that the grandparents got mad when she wouldn't, promised treats, and invoked the imminent fear of hell ("it was their only shot...") You can only disregard this story by deciding, as apparently you have, that a couple of unchurched little kids spontaneously came up with the story on their own, in response to the SOTW chapter about Jesus - which, incidentally, doesn't mention hell or salvation at all - so that their completely loving and non-pressuring grandparents would get in trouble.

 

SKL, I have no idea what your motivation is here, but you are twisting the OP's account into your own version of the story. You're assuming that the OP is lying and that her kids are lying, and that the grandparents are blameless. You've inserted completely unjustified snark like "atheism class" to insinuate that the OP is the real brainwasher. Why? On what evidence? For what purpose?

[Rivka]

I think you are mistaking me for someone who believes in that sort of thing. :confused:

 

I have never believed in any of that fire and brimstone stuff. No one ever said anything like, "God will be angry if..." or "You'll burn in h*ll if..." or "You won't go to heaven if you don't get up in front of the room and accept Jesus as your savior." We weren't raised that way at all. My mom always told us that if anyone ever said anything like that to us, that we should ignore them because they were nuts. :D (Subtlety was not Mom's strong point. ;))

 

Okay. Well, then, I don't know why you responded originally like it was annoying but no big deal, because it was clear from the first post that the grandparents told the kids they needed salvation.

 

I wasn't accusing you specifically of having extreme beliefs, in my post. I was just trying to explain that the whole idea of the need for salvation and substitutionary atonement is something many people want to protect their kids from, even if it's not presented in an extreme form.

[SKL]

SKL, I have no idea what your motivation is here, but you are twisting the OP's account into your own version of the story. You're assuming that the OP is lying and that her kids are lying, and that the grandparents are blameless. You've inserted completely unjustified snark like "atheism class" to insinuate that the OP is the real brainwasher. Why? On what evidence? For what purpose?

 

I didn't twist anything. I just refuse to fill in the blanks with assumptions.

 

And to be honest, I find it a bit hard to follow and hence hard to take some of this stuff seriously. The rather important "facts" that didn't make it into the OP. I mean, personally I think the bribe and threat part of the story is the worst aspect of it, yet there was no mention of bribes or threats in the OP. The implication that the grandparents' knowledge of the poster's abuse history takes this from an issue of "over the line" to deserving of physical violence. Also, the allegation that the grandparents believe a coerced statement equals salvation. Even the most religiously extreme people I can think of don't believe that. And also, a person who truly wants to be "open" about religion does not go to those (alleged) extents to shelter their kids and does not freak out when exposure occurs. So I'm sorry but my BS meter is going off all over the place.

 

I never used the word brainwasher. I see nothing wrong with a parent with atheist beliefs teaching their children about those beliefs. To deny teaching, or modeling (which equals teaching) such beliefs, when it's clearly happening, is what doesn't fly.

 

I never suggested that the kids pulled "Jesus is my savior" out of the air, but I also doubt a six-year-old spontaneously came up with the "fairy tale" criticism. In the OP it seemed clear to me that the kids' statements were said to show Mom that they like her view of the world better than Grandma's. Which is fine, but it's not an excuse to go postal on Grandma.

 

What is my purpose? That's a good question. Maybe I think it's a shame that, on this board, discussions of family issues so often devolve to "have nothing more to do with that relative" or similar. Maybe it bothers me that so many are encouraging a mom to think she can and should have 100% control over what her school-aged children see and hear; and that if she doesn't, tragedy has occurred. Maybe I don't like people encouraging a mom to let her personal historical baggage interfere with openness to other people's ideas. Maybe I feel that if this mom goes and blows up at the grandparents over something that happened months ago, when she already had a hissy to them over the church thing, her kids will miss out on a relationship with a close family member for no good reason.

[Harriet Vane]

:iagree: No one is going as far to say that it's okay, but there's a lot of "yes, but..." and "what's the big deal" in some posts from Christians.

 

 

 

I think that if you're Christian it can be very hard to understand how repellent the ideas of hell and ****ation are to many of us who aren't Christian, and how horrifying it can be for us to have our child's innocence sullied by someone who is trying to induce a fear of hell.

 

In my case, mercifully, it wasn't a relative - it was a nanny who, when my daughter was 4, introduced a lot of stuff about "God is watching to see if you behave," "God will be mad if you don't say your prayers," "The devil comes to take bad children to hell." We fired her the moment we found out, but I could not shrug it off as "Okay, that happened and it's over." I felt that it was a completely ugly and disgusting intrusion between my child and God.

 

We did a lot of talking about it, and fortunately, even at that age Alex was pretty strong in her faith development as a Unitarian-Universalist. It still stayed with her to some extent - not as something she believed, but as something she worried about and brought up, from time to time, for the next couple of years.

 

To say that the OP should just be able to shrug it off with, "Oh, well, they believe that and we believe a different thing, no big deal"... I don't mean to be offensive, because there are so many people here whom I like and respect, and whom I know believe in hell. But to me, the idea that God holds ****ation and eternal torment over humanity's heads to try and get us to love him is so repellent that it's like... well, probably like Satanism is to Christians. Like, "Oh well, honey, some people believe that God is evil and we believe God is good - isn't it interesting that everyone has different beliefs?"

 

My kids spend time with Christians - my whole family, for example, and Alex's Catholic best friend. They have a children's Bible and get exposed to some Christian stories and holidays, at home and at church. I want them to know the beautiful parts of Christianity. But if anyone tried to coerce them into believing that they are bad, unworthy, destined for punishment, and despised by God unless saved... I would be absolutely incandescent with rage.

 

I appreciate reading your comments. Some thoughts to add to the discussion:

 

--Some of the "yes, but" and treating this like it's not a big deal has bothered me too. I would react very poorly to anyone who did something with my children that I specifically asked them not to do. I see that as on the same plane as people who give my ds food with milk product in it (this makes him quite ill). It's bad enough when someone is clueless but with the best of intentions, but I see red when someone purposely gives my ds something with milk in it because it's "only a little" or because their other lactose-intolerant friend can handle cheese so naturally ds should be able to as well. The mama bear comes roaring out in these instances. The point is that any time someone goes over the parent's expressed wishes, that is wrong, and the OP was justified in being unhappy with that.

 

--I will just add that I do not believe that coerced confession of faith to be right or effective in changing a person's relationship with God. Coercion in faith is definitely wrong.

 

--For me, personally, I read the OP's post in the context of knowing people who are very anti-faith but who say they accept all faiths and want their children (or children generally) to be able to decide for themselves. These people--real people that I know--are, in conversation and in actual practice, very anti-faith. They are intellectually dishonest with themselves, their children, and others when they say they accept all faiths, because in reality they forbid the practice of faith and openly mock various religious tenets as being myths or for the unintelligent. With this as my context, I read the OP with the concern that it was possible that the OP may have contributed to the situation with an antipathy towards faith that was painful to the grandparents.

 

--The OP's further clarifications in the thread made a lot of sense, and I appreciated her willingness to share her perspective. It is very difficult to see ALL of a situation in one, short post, and every one of us read such posts from our own, individual context. What the OP shared about the grandparents' insensitivity in other areas changed my understanding of the situation.

 

--On the subject of hell--speaking as a Christian who embraces the Bible--I am hideously uncomfortable with the way this is presented by some people as well. In my extensive study of the Bible, the only thing that is really clear to me is that separation from God is a painful state of being. I see separation from God as being painful in the same way that a young child finds it painful to be separated from his or her mother/father. For those that I know that do not believe as I do, it's a terribly, terribly painful thing for me to think of their separation from God and the natural pain that would bring. Given your comments on hell and how repugnant that concept is (as you present it with hellfire and ****ation), I am genuinely curious to know how you would respond? (This is a different topic entirely, but I am genuinely interested to understand your perspective. I hope you don't mind my asking.)

[Laurie4b]

Here's the issues I would emphasize in confronting them:

 

1 of first importance is the harm to your children and their relationship with your children: Your children are now uncomfortable/scared (whatever word is appropriate) with them because they were bribed and threatened to force them to say something they didn't believe. What they did was emotionally harmful. (I agree with Audrey that it is also spiritual abuse, but I think that term would muddy the waters from your ILs point of view.)

 

From your IL's point of view, they are going to be inclined to think this is an issue of faith and they are being persecuted by you for sharing their faith with your dc. Because of that I would take steps to make it crystal clear where the real harm came. So, I would make an attempt to separate the two things or they are very unlikely to hear what you are saying. I would suggest that you emphasize that what harmed your children was not hearing about Jesus per se (the content) , but being bribed to say something that they didn't believe was true and feeling threatened by the gp's anger if they didn't say something they believed was true. (the process) Christian martyrs have died for refusing to submit to authority telling them to say something that wasn't true.

 

Other parts of the process that were harmful to your kids were knowing that their parents wouldn't approve of what was going on. That puts kids in the middle being torn--not between Jesus vs your beliefs---but between grandparents whom they love and parents they love.

 

 

2. The impact on your relationship: When they go against your express wishes, they become untrustworthy. When they lie, they become untrustworthy. This is important but not as critical as the direct harm to your children. So I would bring it up second.

 

3. The impact on their actual goals: I would say that associating Jesus (or any other content) with the feelings that your kids now have is a sure way to guarantee that your children will be much less likely ever to want to investigate Jesus on their own. Your children now associate him with fear and anger and dishonesty of bribes and lying to their parents. If your ils actually had religious motivation for what they did (as opposed to personality disorder reasons), then having them realize the extent of the damage they've done to their own cause is probably the best guarantee of preventing something similar in the future. Your dh saying that their behavior makes him even less likely to ever consider their beliefs might also hit home.

 

Here's a paradox for you to consider. The Bible says people who are persecuted for their faith are blessed. (There are many martyrs who were put to death for being like your dd and refusing to recant their beliefs.) There is a good chance that the more your reaction looks like persecution to them, the more solace they will take. It gives them a place to hide from the truth about their wrong behavior.

 

Because of that, I would constantly repeat that the issue is not about Jesus but about what they DID (you could even say, "It is about your sinful behaviors" to translate it into their language) : they bribed, threatened, and lied. Saying that it isn't about Jesus will at the very least make it harder for them to "run for cover" and feel MORE righteous because they are being persecuted for sharing Jesus. I would want to avoid giving them that satisfaction and I would want them to feel the impact on their own goals.

 

I would set boundaries but I would do it as much as possible in a matter of fact way rather than with anger. (Not that you don't have a right to be angry, but I think it will be more effective, and cost you less than anger would.) To some extent, their reaction to being confronted will guide your boundaries. If there is any sense that they have an internal shift or "aha" then you can set looser boundaries. Personally, I'd be looking for an apology to your dc and to you--not forced as they did to your dc, but as evidence of that internal shift. I would flat out state that I think they should apologize to dc for bribing them and making them feel threatened if dc didn't say something they didn't believe. If they disagree, then the boundaries need to be very strong.

 

You goal is not to punish them, but to protect your dc. If you sense that boundaries will be the only thing holding them back, then the boundaries need to be very strong. I am not sure that the Sunday/Wednesday distinction will help. It sounded to me like this happened in direct interaction with your ILs and not as a part of the church service, but maybe I misread. They can't be alone with your kids until you & dh trust them not to harm your dc again (that lets them work to be trustworthy) or until your children are older and there wouldn't be the same opportunity for harm.

 

I am sorry that this h appened to your family.

[Jennifer3141]

It seems to me that people are making a lot of assumptions here and adding "facts" that may or may not have occurred.

 

The OP never said that the grandparents stated "we agree to not take the children to church, in respect of your wishes." If you read it as written, it's vague on that point. Sounds to me like the parents dropped the kids off without church clothes and there was an understanding (not a promise) that without church clothes, the kids couldn't attend church, and the grandparents could suck it up.

 

However, the grandparents had a key. Now if I had a key to my kids' house and I was taking care of their kids for 3 days, I would not think it a horrible thing to go there and get some clothes for the kids. Certainly not creepy like it's being made out here.

 

OK, so they got the clothes, took the kids to church (Sunday School) and then they TOLD the parents. Not sure where the "lie" comes in. Apparently there is an assumed lie because the children were exposed to some sort of "I believe in Jesus" recitation, but it doesn't say where or when that happened. Maybe it's something the grandparents say in their own home. At any rate, they told the parents they took the kids to church, so how are they lying sickos?

 

Also, being included in a statement of belief in the context of a group recitation or pre-written prayer is not the same as being coerced to convert.

 

Now I read some of the above stories and I agree that there are some really extreme people out there. There are also some grannies who really overstep their boundaries in a variety of areas. But what I read from the OP is not to that extreme. The gps took the kids to church and told the parents. Months later the kids remembered being invited/asked to repeat some sort of formulaic creed or prayer once. That just doesn't rise to the level of kidnaping the kids to forcibly convert them.

 

I think you have a reading comprehension problem. I'm not sure you've ever read the OP's posts at all.

[TranquilMind]

SKL: I didn't twist anything. I just refuse to fill in the blanks with assumptions.

 

Well, others did not seem to have this problem! ;)

 

The implication that the grandparents' knowledge of the poster's abuse history takes this from an issue of "over the line" to deserving of physical violence. Also, the allegation that the grandparents believe a coerced statement equals salvation. Even the most religiously extreme people I can think of don't believe that. And also, a person who truly wants to be "open" about religion does not go to those (alleged) extents to shelter their kids and does not freak out when exposure occurs. So I'm sorry but my BS meter is going off all over the place.

 

I never used the word brainwasher. I see nothing wrong with a parent with atheist beliefs teaching their children about those beliefs. To deny teaching, or modeling (which equals teaching) such beliefs, when it's clearly happening, is what doesn't fly.

 

What is my purpose? That's a good question. Maybe I think it's a shame that, on this board, discussions of family issues so often devolve to "have nothing more to do with that relative" or similar. Maybe it bothers me that so many are encouraging a mom to think she can and should have 100% control over what her school-aged children see and hear; and that if she doesn't, tragedy has occurred. Maybe I don't like people encouraging a mom to let her personal historical baggage interfere with openness to other people's ideas. Maybe I feel that if this mom goes and blows up at the grandparents over something that happened months ago, when she already had a hissy to them over the church thing, her kids will miss out on a relationship with a close family member for no good reason.

 

What happened to that clapping smilie? Maybe it is on another forum. Anyway, :cheers2:

[TranquilMind]

strider: --For me, personally, I read the OP's post in the context of knowing people who are very anti-faith but who say they accept all faiths and want their children (or children generally) to be able to decide for themselves. These people--real people that I know--are, in conversation and in actual practice, very anti-faith. They are intellectually dishonest with themselves, their children, and others when they say they accept all faiths, because in reality they forbid the practice of faith and openly mock various religious tenets as being myths or for the unintelligent. With this as my context, I read the OP with the concern that it was possible that the OP may have contributed to the situation with an antipathy towards faith that was painful to the grandparents.

 

Oh goodness, yes. We all know these people who claim to be ever so open-minded and tolerant.

 

 

--The OP's further clarifications in the thread made a lot of sense, and I appreciated her willingness to share her perspective. It is very difficult to see ALL of a situation in one, short post, and every one of us read such posts from our own, individual context. What the OP shared about the grandparents' insensitivity in other areas changed my understanding of the situation.

 

Agreed. It has to be taken as a whole, but of course, we don't have the whole story.

 

--On the subject of hell--speaking as a Christian who embraces the Bible--I am hideously uncomfortable with the way this is presented by some people as well. In my extensive study of the Bible, the only thing that is really clear to me is that separation from God is a painful state of being. I see separation from God as being painful in the same way that a young child finds it painful to be separated from his or her mother/father. For those that I know that do not believe as I do, it's a terribly, terribly painful thing for me to think of their separation from God and the natural pain that would bring. Given your comments on hell and how repugnant that concept is (as you present it with hellfire and ****ation), I am genuinely curious to know how you would respond? (This is a different topic entirely, but I am genuinely interested to understand your perspective. I hope you don't mind my asking.)

 

That's my take too.

[freeindeed]

:grouphug:

I would be completely livid if I were you.

[justamouse]

Here's the issues I would emphasize in confronting them:

 

1 of first importance is the harm to your children and their relationship with your children: Your children are now uncomfortable/scared (whatever word is appropriate) with them because they were bribed and threatened to force them to say something they didn't believe. What they did was emotionally harmful. (I agree with Audrey that it is also spiritual abuse, but I think that term would muddy the waters from your ILs point of view.)

 

From your IL's point of view, they are going to be inclined to think this is an issue of faith and they are being persecuted by you for sharing their faith with your dc. Because of that I would take steps to make it crystal clear where the real harm came. So, I would make an attempt to separate the two things or they are very unlikely to hear what you are saying. I would suggest that you emphasize that what harmed your children was not hearing about Jesus per se (the content) , but being bribed to say something that they didn't believe was true and feeling threatened by the gp's anger if they didn't say something they believed was true. (the process) Christian martyrs have died for refusing to submit to authority telling them to say something that wasn't true.

 

Other parts of the process that were harmful to your kids were knowing that their parents wouldn't approve of what was going on. That puts kids in the middle being torn--not between Jesus vs your beliefs---but between grandparents whom they love and parents they love.

 

 

2. The impact on your relationship: When they go against your express wishes, they become untrustworthy. When they lie, they become untrustworthy. This is important but not as critical as the direct harm to your children. So I would bring it up second.

 

3. The impact on their actual goals: I would say that associating Jesus (or any other content) with the feelings that your kids now have is a sure way to guarantee that your children will be much less likely ever to want to investigate Jesus on their own. Your children now associate him with fear and anger and dishonesty of bribes and lying to their parents. If your ils actually had religious motivation for what they did (as opposed to personality disorder reasons), then having them realize the extent of the damage they've done to their own cause is probably the best guarantee of preventing something similar in the future. Your dh saying that their behavior makes him even less likely to ever consider their beliefs might also hit home.

 

Here's a paradox for you to consider. The Bible says people who are persecuted for their faith are blessed. (There are many martyrs who were put to death for being like your dd and refusing to recant their beliefs.) There is a good chance that the more your reaction looks like persecution to them, the more solace they will take. It gives them a place to hide from the truth about their wrong behavior.

 

Because of that, I would constantly repeat that the issue is not about Jesus but about what they DID (you could even say, "It is about your sinful behaviors" to translate it into their language) : they bribed, threatened, and lied. Saying that it isn't about Jesus will at the very least make it harder for them to "run for cover" and feel MORE righteous because they are being persecuted for sharing Jesus. I would want to avoid giving them that satisfaction and I would want them to feel the impact on their own goals.

 

I would set boundaries but I would do it as much as possible in a matter of fact way rather than with anger. (Not that you don't have a right to be angry, but I think it will be more effective, and cost you less than anger would.) To some extent, their reaction to being confronted will guide your boundaries. If there is any sense that they have an internal shift or "aha" then you can set looser boundaries. Personally, I'd be looking for an apology to your dc and to you--not forced as they did to your dc, but as evidence of that internal shift. I would flat out state that I think they should apologize to dc for bribing them and making them feel threatened if dc didn't say something they didn't believe. If they disagree, then the boundaries need to be very strong.

 

You goal is not to punish them, but to protect your dc. If you sense that boundaries will be the only thing holding them back, then the boundaries need to be very strong. I am not sure that the Sunday/Wednesday distinction will help. It sounded to me like this happened in direct interaction with your ILs and not as a part of the church service, but maybe I misread. They can't be alone with your kids until you & dh trust them not to harm your dc again (that lets them work to be trustworthy) or until your children are older and there wouldn't be the same opportunity for harm.

 

I am sorry that this h appened to your family.

:iagree::iagree:

 

I would also add that them going into your house, with your children, while you weren't there, made the children unwitting accomplices in their deception, which probably further confused the kids. (Grandparents forced them into doing something the kids know they shouldn't have--and these are authority figures---)

 

Also, in this thread there is accusations of cutting off ties with family.

 

Sometimes that needs to be done.

 

Other times, you have to make a firm boundary, but the ties are not cut UNLESS the other party cannot abide by the boundary.

 

What's interesting to me is how other people see and understand the setting of boundaries as equal to cutting people out of their lives. Hence, you can see why the grandparents in this case might react as being persecuted.

Edited October 11, 2012 by justamouse

[Mrs Mungo]

No, the original post is perfectly clear: "We had discussed it, and they said they had no issue missing church in exchange for 3 days with the kids." They specifically discussed it in relation to this visit; hence, the mention of the visit length. The grandparents said they had no issue missing church.

 

Here Rivka provides a quote from the OP to back up her statement.

 

It seems to me that people are making a lot of assumptions here and adding "facts" that may or may not have occurred.

 

The OP never said that the grandparents stated "we agree to not take the children to church, in respect of your wishes." If you read it as written, it's vague on that point. Sounds to me like the parents dropped the kids off without church clothes and there was an understanding (not a promise) that without church clothes, the kids couldn't attend church, and the grandparents could suck it up.

 

You are dead wrong about this statement.

 

I didn't twist anything. I just refuse to fill in the blanks with assumptions.

 

There are NO assumptions. Unlike you, we are going off what the OP *actually says*. If you are not doing that, then yes, you are twisting it.

 

[Quiye]And to be honest, I find it a bit hard to follow and hence hard to take some of this stuff seriously. The rather important "facts" that didn't make it into the OP. I mean, personally I think the bribe and threat part of the story is the worst aspect of it, yet there was no mention of bribes or threats in the OP. The implication that the grandparents' knowledge of the poster's abuse history takes this from an issue of "over the line" to deserving of physical violence. Also, the allegation that the grandparents believe a coerced statement equals salvation. Even the most religiously extreme people I can think of don't believe that. And also, a person who truly wants to be "open" about religion does not go to those (alleged) extents to shelter their kids and does not freak out when exposure occurs. So I'm sorry but my BS meter is going off all over the place.

 

There are 2 or 3 posters here (not the OP) who consistently ping my crazy and/or full of it meter. I have them on ignore instead of calling them out on the board.

[Impish]

*haven't read entire thread*

I'd be furious.

 

In no particular order:

 

Using my emergency key to access my home to get the kids clothes, w/out permission, I'd be angry.

 

Trying to force my child into accepting a faith? Spitting fire furious.

 

Ftr, I do consider myself Christian. And I'd STILL be foaming at the mouth furious if a gpa took it upon themselves to coerce a statement of faith from my child, behind my back.

 

My MIL tried to backdoor us into having our children dedicated in HER church. Arranged for it, w/out talking to us, and then threw a fit when we declined to attend w/her (not knowing this was up her sleeve). She also went behind our back and told family we wanted to attend w/them, and next thing we know, we have ppl trying to arrange pick up times, etc, for stuff we never knew about.

 

So yeah, I do get the boundary crossing at play here, and it wouldn't fly w/me.