Is algebra necessary?

[Dealea86]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

 

Just curious what the Hive thinks.... :bigear:

[Ellie]

No, no, no.

 

ITA with the article.

 

A good, solid foundation in basic arithmetic is necessary. Everything that algebra enthusiasts want to solve for x can be done with arithmetic. I do not believe my lfie was enhanced in any way by the year of algebra I bled out my eyeballs over as a sophomore in high school.

[Momma H]

I really wish there was a like button for that article. :iagree:

Many think it is just a cop-out to not work REALLY hard at excelling at upper math but for so many people it just is not necessary. It seems reasonabe that if higher math is very hard for a person to understand (I mean really hard, it just is not happening no matter how they try), that person will not fit in a career that uses higher math. There is no shame in that. The same expectation could be made of ANY academic subject. People could act like we are all failures if we don't excel in Organic Chemistry, it is just become an expextation that for most doesn't make sense.

That said, I am having this particular child get a good overall sense for algebra with a book called The Algebra Survival Guide. It explains it in a way that non mathy kids can understand. I am good with that.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Momma H
thought of more

[kiana]

Well, let's put it this way.

 

I'd *love* to see a shift away from requiring all students to participate in the march to calculus. I'd like to see students able to choose from a much wider array of options, including the basics of financial mathematics, logic (could be instead of geometry w/proofs), and statistical literacy (all of which I think *are* important).

 

Until and unless you can convince universities that students can be good art/history/english/whatever students without having necessarily had algebra 2 and trigonometry, it's not going to happen.

[Mrs Mungo]

I was at an event a few days ago where a general spoke. He had been a Field Artillery gunner early in his career. He started talking about how they used to do their calculations with a slide rule. Then, he looked around the room, pointed at a young private and said, "do you even know what a slide rule is?!!!" The private shook his head. The general said, "it is a STICK with numbers on it and you use it for trigonometry!!"

 

Do you remember Apollo 13? Their computer broke and they had to do their re-entry calculations with a pencil and paper.

 

Yes, I think everyone needs math. If you decide up front that you don't need it, then I think you are limiting yourself. I think people who don't read or use proper grammar are also limiting their potential.

 

I say this as someone who majored in Literature and hated math. But I think if the schools placed as much emphasis on math as they do on reading, then it might be a different story. My Algebra 2 teacher in high school was Vietnamese. She barely spoke English and was too shy to deal with a classroom. I didn't learn a *thing* in that class. So, it clearly was not a priority.

 

I do think most people do not understand higher math because they have not received a good foundation, and they don't receive good instruction.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[KAR120C]

For lots of fields, absolutely. And just for that reason I'd prepare a kid as well as I could, just so we weren't closing doors prematurely.

 

For just being an adult? Probably not.

 

HOWEVER. If students really did have that solid grounding in arithmetic, Algebra 1 would be a piece of cake. They don't. Not even close. I have tutored dozens of kids at various points along the "good at math" continuum, including seriously remedial cases, and every single kid (or adult) that I've tutored who had trouble with algebra was really having trouble with arithmetic. Some didn't know what multiplication and division really did. Most didn't understand fractions, decimals, percents, rates, ratios and proportions and how they're all the same thing. I spent two years tutoring an adult who had spent three years on his own trying to get through algebra, and those two years were not spent on "vectorial angles and discontinuous functions" - they were spent on long division, fractions, the distributive property, and the very basics of exponents. Once that was mastered, algebra was easy.

 

Really, Algebra 1 is the final exam of arithmetic. Adding in variables prevents shortcuts, counting up, or relying on calculators.... but there is very little new material IF you're absolutely solid on everything that came before it.

 

So while I don't really think that most people need to know a ton of math for their everyday lives, they do need to be absolutely solid on arithmetic, and if they can't pass Algebra 1, my first suspicion would be the arithmetic.

[Mandy in TN]

Hmm, I don't have an issue with high school students being required to take Alg1 or with state high schools requiring 3 years of math. I have used enough Alg1 in my everyday life as a house wife and mom that I have no problem teaching it.

 

However, I do have a problem with dumbing down geometry and Alg2 courses so that students who have no business being in these classes pass. This helps no one. The kids who have the potential to do really well in math and go into fields that require a math background are handicapped by the lack of challenging math in high school. The students for whom the program was dumbed down won't be going into fields where they need the math background. They only take these math courses because they are required.

 

What is wrong with taking practical math. Why is this a no-no? So, these kids can say they have taken Alg2, but they can't balance a checkbook, don't understand interest, and can't figure out how to cut a recipe in half. Why shouldn't these student's take pre-Alg, Alg1, and practical math as their 3 math courses. It is more honest than having them take Alg2 that is really more of Alg1 just called Alg2 and short changing those students who could really benefit from a true Alg2 course.

 

JMHO-

Mandy

[Caitilin]

Yes. I think it's mind boggling that so many citizens are "illiterate" in mathematics. It's the attitude of "do we really need it" that just enables us to be even more ignorant. I don't know the answer. It would be very hard work, which is also something too many oppose.

 

:iagree:Completely.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Algebra is needed, you will use it. You mat not realize you are but it crops up in life.

I think the lack of a foundation coupled with the fear of higher math will get in the way of grasping it, this plus telling yourself you are not good in math. I have seen the fear of fractions keep a bright student from advancing until he conquered the fear. When my dd made a comment last year that she will never be able to do Algebra I started treating her math as an Algebra problem and letting her know she did Algebra (simplistic Algebra, 7+X=10, solve for X, but still Algebra). She is now excited about getting to that level with an I can do attitude.

[EKS]

For lots of fields, absolutely. And just for that reason I'd prepare a kid as well as I could, just so we weren't closing doors prematurely.

 

For just being an adult? Probably not.

 

HOWEVER. If students really did have that solid grounding in arithmetic, Algebra 1 would be a piece of cake. They don't. Not even close. I have tutored dozens of kids at various points along the "good at math" continuum, including seriously remedial cases, and every single kid (or adult) that I've tutored who had trouble with algebra was really having trouble with arithmetic. Some didn't know what multiplication and division really did. Most didn't understand fractions, decimals, percents, rates, ratios and proportions and how they're all the same thing. I spent two years tutoring an adult who had spent three years on his own trying to get through algebra, and those two years were not spent on "vectorial angles and discontinuous functions" - they were spent on long division, fractions, the distributive property, and the very basics of exponents. Once that was mastered, algebra was easy.

 

Really, Algebra 1 is the final exam of arithmetic. Adding in variables prevents shortcuts, counting up, or relying on calculators.... but there is very little new material IF you're absolutely solid on everything that came before it.

 

So while I don't really think that most people need to know a ton of math for their everyday lives, they do need to be absolutely solid on arithmetic, and if they can't pass Algebra 1, my first suspicion would be the arithmetic.

 

This. Every word of it.

 

I firmly believe that what ails education in this country, including math education, is a flimsy foundation at the K-8 level. Once kids get to high school, the damage is done. But they keep focusing on trying to fix things at the high school level.

[Ellie]

Then, in all honesty, I'd have to say you didn't have a good solid foundation in basic math, or your eyeballs would not have bled. Maybe that's the answer--our kids are not getting a good foundation to build on. Rote memory is not the way.

And I'd have to disagree with you.

 

Algebra makes no sense to me. OTOH, I can balance a checkbook, figure out sales tax, buy enough wallpaper to do the kitchen, figure out how much time it should take to drive to Virginia, and more real-world mathy adventures. I fail to see how knowing algebra has or would have impacted my life in any way.

 

Rote memory definitely has its place. It frees the mind to do the operation instead of having to count on fingers or come up with the process when doing math in real life situations.

[ChristyB in TN]

We, as a nation, have the resources to teach algebra to every child capable of grasping it. Not teaching it and expecting it is failing our kids. I use algebra all the time and disagree completely with the idea of only teaching kids what they think they might need for the rest of their lives. Algebra teaches more than just algebra skills, it also teaches problem solving and logic and we have a shortage of these skills on our planet. I want the public school system to expect the most from students AND teachers.

[FaithManor]

I was at an event a few days ago where a general spoke. He had been a Field Artillery gunner early in his career. He started talking about how they used to do their calculations with a slide rule. Then, he looked around the room, pointed at a young private and said, "do you even know what a slide rule is?!!!" The private shook his head. The general said, "it is a STICK with numbers on it and you use it for trigonometry!!"

 

Do you remember Apollo 13? Their computer broke and they had to do their re-entry calculations with a pencil and paper.

 

Yes, I think everyone needs math. If you decide up front that you don't need it, then I think you are limiting yourself. I think people who don't read or use proper grammar are also limiting their potential.

 

I say this as someone who majored in Literature and hated math. But I think if the schools placed as much emphasis on math as they do on reading, then it might be a different story. My Algebra 2 teacher in high school was Vietnamese. She barely spoke English and was too shy to deal with a classroom. I didn't learn a *thing* in that class. So, it clearly was not a priority.

 

I do think most people do not understand higher math because they have not received a good foundation, and they don't receive good instruction.

 

 

:iagree: With Mrs. Mungo and many people who think they don't need it, have no idea how much they are limiting themselves. My dad owns a heating and air conditioning business. He does not need gifted mathematicians, he doesn't need anyone who has had trig and calculus. But, what he does need are people who can not only do arithmetic mentally (and that means adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing fractions in their heads plus deal with decimals and convert between metric and U.S. measures) and who can also deal with specific formulas, he provides the chart so they don't have to be memorized...but when you need to know the angle at which to set a chimney in order to have it draft properly at a specific roof pitch, well then you have some calculating to do. He needs them to KNOW their order of operations. What he finds is that those that did not make it through algebra and geometry in good shape, really can't do the work even though he has no need for them to solve and graph linear systems or simplify polynomials. There is a level of brain training, mathematically and logically speaking, that is not achieved during middle school math. He has needed to add two people to his team for over three years. Good jobs...help with medical insurance...paid vacation, paid sick time, and with overtime, it could be a very comfortable living. He's a nice man to work for, but with so few kids willing to devote themselves to learning at a higher level, he can't find anyone to fill these positions. In a county currently sporting a 19% unemployment rate, that's very, very sad.

 

 

He needs workers interested in the trades but because the attitude was "if I'm going into the trades, I only need remedial classes" (that includes remedial everything - according to several friends who are teachers in our local high school, the kids who opt out of algebra 1 also opt to take only remedial classes for the rest of high school), they aren't prepared for the technical level of work that many trades now require.

 

Algebra 1 and Geometry, regardless of whether or not you will go into a line of work in which you will be solving linear systems by graphing or proving that two angles are congruent, teach a level of logical thinking that is not taught in many other subject areas in high school. There is some good brain training going on even if the student struggles mightily with the topic.

 

Faith

[OSUBuckeye]

For lots of fields, absolutely. And just for that reason I'd prepare a kid as well as I could, just so we weren't closing doors prematurely.

 

HOWEVER. If students really did have that solid grounding in arithmetic, Algebra 1 would be a piece of cake. They don't. Not even close. I have tutored dozens of kids at various points along the "good at math" continuum, including seriously remedial cases, and every single kid (or adult) that I've tutored who had trouble with algebra was really having trouble with arithmetic. Some didn't know what multiplication and division really did. Most didn't understand fractions, decimals, percents, rates, ratios and proportions and how they're all the same thing...Once that was mastered, algebra was easy.

 

 

As a math tutor from pre-Algebra to Calculus, I totally agree. Most of my students who are "bad at math" to the extent that they've never passed the state's math exam are actually struggling with the basic arithmetic and not the higher-level stuff. One geometry student made laughably bad multiplication errors ( 12/4 = 5 :confused:) until he got enough practice with multiplication that he could finally do 4x4 and 360/4 in his head. He'd smile from ear-to-ear proud of his new mental math abilities. Previously, he could figure out geometry angles easily, as they were like fun Sudoku puzzles to him, it was the rules of arithmetic that left him sorely unable to pass the class.

 

Algebra equations are extremely difficult if you don't know that multiplication undoes division, that subtraction undoes addition, and that 5X-3 doesn't equal 2X (as in [5-3]X). Once I can get a student to start thinking for themselves about how math works, how its rules are very simple once you learn them and follow them, they grow leaps and bounds in their abstract thinking as well. My geometry kid went from failing to third-best in his public school class, and he had no troubles during practice tests for the state exams. Even more importantly, he started our sessions by staring blankly at the most basic of concepts I was teaching him, but by the end he was mostly autonomous with me there just to catch his minor mistakes.

 

Yes, this kid could have skipped geometry and still functioned in the world. But at what cost? He would have needed to count on his fingers for any math problem because he didn't even know which operations needed to be used on a calculator. His arithmetic problem-solving skills and self-checking/estimation skills grew leaps and bounds, and I think those skills carry over into other realms of logic. Listening to a political argument, he'll be more likely to go, "hmm, that doesn't sound quite right.... let me investigate" rather than just shrug his shoulders and go, "I don't know... that's over my head and too difficult for me ever to understand..." Math isn't about just the X's and Y's, it's about teaching you how to think through any and all of life's problems.

[KnitWit]

:iagree: With Mrs. Mungo and many people who think they don't need it, have no idea how much they are limiting themselves. My dad owns a heating and air conditioning business. He does not need gifted mathematicians, he doesn't need anyone who has had trig and calculus. But, what he does need are people who can not only do arithmetic mentally (and that means adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing fractions in their heads plus deal with decimals and convert between metric and U.S. measures) and who can also deal with specific formulas, he provides the chart so they don't have to be memorized...but when you need to know the angle at which to set a chimney in order to have it draft properly at a specific roof pitch, well then you have some calculating to do. He needs them to KNOW their order of operations. What he finds is that those that did not make it through algebra and geometry in good shape, really can't do the work even though he has no need for them to solve and graph linear systems or simplify polynomials. There is a level of brain training, mathematically and logically speaking, that is not achieved during middle school math. He has needed to add two people to his team for over three years. Good jobs...help with medical insurance...paid vacation, paid sick time, and with overtime, it could be a very comfortable living. He's a nice man to work for, but with so few kids willing to devote themselves to learning at a higher level, he can't find anyone to fill these positions. In a county currently sporting a 19% unemployment rate, that's very, very sad.

 

 

He needs workers interested in the trades but because the attitude was "if I'm going into the trades, I only need remedial classes" (that includes remedial everything - according to several friends who are teachers in our local high school, the kids who opt out of algebra 1 also opt to take only remedial classes for the rest of high school), they aren't prepared for the technical level of work that many trades now require.

 

Algebra 1 and Geometry, regardless of whether or not you will go into a line of work in which you will be solving linear systems by graphing or proving that two angles are congruent, teach a level of logical thinking that is not taught in many other subject areas in high school. There is some good brain training going on even if the student struggles mightily with the topic.

 

Faith

 

I completely agree with this! My dh has been in construction since before I met him. Over the years, he tried to hire homeschool kids who wanted to learn a trade vs going to college. Time and time again he ran up against kids who just could NOT do the math because the parents REALLY thought they would never need it. One mom did NOT understand why dh couldn't just teach her son the math he needed to know to continue working, OR...have dh just figure it all out *for* him and tell him every little step to make. She basically wanted dh to babysit her son and then pay him for it.

 

I don't want to offend anyone. I just want to encourage parents to INCREASE your vision for your children rather than narrow it. You really don't know what their futures hold or what they will decide they want to go for when they hit their adult years. Make sure they have the tools to shoot for the moon if they decide to do so!! :)

[Parrothead]

I think it is necessary. Pretty much for all the reasons listed above.

 

Also I think it is one of those things that is better to have and not need than need and not have. Hence dd is taking algebra this year with the intention of doing 4 years of high school math. All in order to fulfill her dream of being a ballet teacher.

[Mrs Mungo]

And I'd have to disagree with you.

 

Algebra makes no sense to me. OTOH, I can balance a checkbook, figure out sales tax, buy enough wallpaper to do the kitchen, figure out how much time it should take to drive to Virginia, and more real-world mathy adventures. I fail to see how knowing algebra has or would have impacted my life in any way.

 

If you can figure out how much you spend on gas when you drive to Virginia, then you are probably using Algebra. If you can cut a recipe in half, then you are probably using Algebra. You just don't realize that you are doing it.

[Dealea86]

I've been trying to come up with enough coherent thoughts to say about this.

 

On the one hand, I do think that not every child will be able to master every subject. On the other hand, I think that there is benefit in trying and making it as far as you can.

 

For example, I am not very good at grammar, spelling, and writing. I never was any good at them. High school English was difficult for me. But despite that, I managed to make it into AP English my senior year. What if I'd been allowed to quit English when it started getting hard? I totally would have. I hated English! I only took it because it was required.

 

I still can't write well, I probably botch my commas all over the place, misplace modifiers, and have tenses that don't agree. I still lean pretty heavily on spell check so that I can communicate in writing without looking like a complete fool. But I struggled through, and it was of some benefit for me. Had it been my choice, I would have quit.

 

I think it's probably much the same with math. Mostly I think our math problem isn't that people can't understand math. I think it's largely because they aren't strong enough on the fundamentals when they reach upper level math.

 

Ultimately, I think there's a huge difference between taking math at an individual pace - therefore having a certain number of children not finish the traditional math sequence after twelve years - and just letting children quit math when it starts getting hard. Gee, I wonder how many would choose that option. :glare:

[Dealea86]

HOWEVER. If students really did have that solid grounding in arithmetic, Algebra 1 would be a piece of cake. They don't. Not even close. I have tutored dozens of kids at various points along the "good at math" continuum, including seriously remedial cases, and every single kid (or adult) that I've tutored who had trouble with algebra was really having trouble with arithmetic. Some didn't know what multiplication and division really did. Most didn't understand fractions, decimals, percents, rates, ratios and proportions and how they're all the same thing. I spent two years tutoring an adult who had spent three years on his own trying to get through algebra, and those two years were not spent on "vectorial angles and discontinuous functions" - they were spent on long division, fractions, the distributive property, and the very basics of exponents. Once that was mastered, algebra was easy.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

This was exactly my experience with tutoring - both honors students getting B's and remedial students, high school students and college students. They just didn't understand the fundamentals.

[Trish]

I think algebra is needed, not "nice."

[Rosy]

We absolutely need (minimally) a basic math education, which includes algebra and geometry. If we drop the requirement of high school math, I believe math education will suffer at the lower levels. I also believe that higher math will become the province of the geeky even more than it already is, and that the less competitive schools will fail to offer it.

 

In Washington State, you can graduate with 2 years of math. Someone who isn't math inclined can take Basic Math and Consumer Math and avoid Algebra altogether. At the community college level, one can take Formal Logic instead of math to get a diploma. So I believe, at least in this state, the means are already there to avoid algebra if one truly can't or doesn't want to do it.

 

Many people will not use higher math outside of school. Many people will also not use what they've learned in literature, science, history, etc. in the "real world". Does that mean we shy away from it and only require classes that are necessary for career training? If so, why would we even teach the ability to read past an 8th grade level?

[ChristyB in TN]

I completely agree with this! My dh has been in construction since before I met him. Over the years, he tried to hire homeschool kids who wanted to learn a trade vs going to college. Time and time again he ran up against kids who just could NOT do the math because the parents REALLY thought they would never need it. One mom did NOT understand why dh couldn't just teach her son the math he needed to know to continue working, OR...have dh just figure it all out *for* him and tell him every little step to make. She basically wanted dh to babysit her son and then pay him for it.

 

I don't want to offend anyone. I just want to encourage parents to INCREASE your vision for your children rather than narrow it. You really don't know what their futures hold or what they will decide they want to go for when they hit their adult years. Make sure they have the tools to shoot for the moon if they decide to do so!! :)

 

Amen. I couldn't agree more.

[Perry]

If we only teach what is necessary, we could make the same argument for pretty much everything taught after 5th grade.

[Ellie]

If you can figure out how much you spend on gas when you drive to Virginia, then you are probably using Algebra. If you can cut a recipe in half, then you are probably using Algebra. You just don't realize that you are doing it.

I know. But I'm using information I acquired up to 9th grade business math. Nothing I do looks remotely like an algebraic equation. I would still be able to do all of those things without having spent a year in math h*ll doing algebra.

[EKS]

I would also make the argument that one can't know if something is necessary or not if one does not know it in the first place.

[jennynd]

When DH went to college, He started out wanted to be a History major. He wanted to teach history in college. the 2nd year in college, he decided he want to be a aerospace engineer. He ended with a PhD in Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering. Have the school decided he will not need algebra since he gonna go history major, , He will never be able to make the jump.

[LostSurprise]

I agree with the poster who wrote that if you have a solid background in arithmetic AND you haven't developed a mental block or fear of your own mathematical lack (my addition)...algebra is not too difficult (I won't say unchallenging) for anyone of average intelligence. In many ways algebra is finding new ways to do arithmetic and new ways to look at problems or put problems together.

 

I don't consider myself a good teacher unless my children pass algebra. I wouldn't push geometry or trig or calculus. Algebra is considered the lowest mathematics a person should have to enter college. I want that to be open to all my children, even if they aren't interested when they leave high school.

 

In addition, algebra is the one time in my entire life when I've had a mathematical epiphany. Before that point I thought math was a boring, repetitive field...which I wasn't any good at because it was boring and repetitive. Algebra is the beginning of math's elegance...when words (basic operations) are finally put together to create sentences...meaning...communication. Students should at least be introduced to this world, so the lofty reaches of higher math (calculus, statistics, etc.) don't seem out of reach.

 

I wish I could thank my algebra teacher for giving me that, even though the next 3 teachers did their best to bash it out of me. :tongue_smilie:

 

In regards to the article, it seemed exaggerated to me. Certainly the logic was faulty. Blaming all high school and college drop outs on one class in mathematics is silly. Saying others do it better only because they persevere better than we is unproven. If anything, these statements should make us question our own math education before blaming the subject itself. How are we teaching math? Why are others doing better at it then we are? How can we make arithmetic less boring? Can we show multiple ways to get to the same answer without confusing students? How can we encourage students to think about math three dimensionally, instead of as flat lines of numbers memorized in rows? How can we encourage students when it comes to higher math?

 

It certainly would be easier if the subject itself were to blame, wouldn't it? It takes very little effort to remove algebra from our core curriculum, but I doubt Singapore, China, Japan, Canada, Germany (already persevering better than the US) are going to do that.

Edited July 30, 2012 by LostSurprise

[Dealea86]

I know. But I'm using information I acquired up to 9th grade business math. Nothing I do looks remotely like an algebraic equation. I would still be able to do all of those things without having spent a year in math h*ll doing algebra.

 

Then, IMO, it's the fault of your algebra class in high school and not the subject. You obviously are able to do the math. I imagine that given the right teacher and/or curriculum, you wouldn't have developed such an aversion for the subject. You might never have liked it... but you obviously have the capacity to understand it.

[sleeplessnights]

I have the same thoughts about "higher" math as about other "thinking" subjects like latin and logic. In the high school years you are learning how to think. When you take algebra or geometry, you are practicing skills that can be used across the board. You are learning to be a problem solver. You are also learning to be detail-oriented and methodic in your work. And, of course, persistent. Very few people will factor large polynomials in their future careers, but the mental process required to get the correct answer is good exercise for the developing brain.

 

I think that anything over 10th grade should be elective. You can go the vocational route, you can focus in an area of interest, or you can prepare for college admission in your area of choice. I don't think everyone needs calculus, but certainly basic algebra and geometry.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:lurk5:

 

My tutored student desperately wanted to study Algebra, because all of her peers have completed it in public school. She was very chagrined to learn that she can't study Algebra and had to start with grade 1 arithmetic, instead. (Seriously, that was her reality.)

 

After some tears on her part and extensive discussion between us, I brought her around to my way of thinking. She is now willing to do the hard work of really knowing her arithmetic so she'll be able to master Algebra later.

 

She advanced from first grade, lesson 1, to halfway through third grade arithmetic this summer! Our goal is to finish fourth grade by the end of the 2012-2013 school year, and to finish fifth grade the next year at age 17.

 

If she finishes the fifth grade Rod and Staff textbook and understands every lesson, she will be able to be a functioning adult with adequate math skills for everyday life. She'll be able to...

 

Be very comfortable with the basic four operations, fractions, and decimals.

Handle her own money and checkbook.

Make change.

Keep a simple business ledger.

Measure for curtains or carpeting.

Know how to figure amounts for either fencing or grass seed.

Order from a catalog.

Figure sales tax.

 

I'll encourage her to keep going, because if she is very solid on her arithmetic there is no reason why she can't eventually learn Algebra. But having assessed her abilities, background education, and goals, I see it as my job to get her through fifth grade arithmetic.

 

If she's able to continue studying as an adult, a competent Algebra teacher will be able to instruct her, thanks to the background in arithmetic that I am giving her now.

 

For my boys, who have had the privilege of a good education from preschool on up, Algebra 1 and 2, Geometry, and pre-Calculus are the standard for all. (Some will do Calculus in 12th grade.) DH is a construction worker (skilled electrician) and uses this level of math every day.

 

Finishing high school math is our minimum, since it seems none of our boys have any significant learning problems with math. Some of them don't like math, but they are all at or above grade level and on track to finish well.

[bobbeym]

Then, in all honesty, I'd have to say you didn't have a good solid foundation in basic math, or your eyeballs would not have bled. Maybe that's the answer--our kids are not getting a good foundation to build on. Rote memory is not the way.

 

 

I have to disagree. I had an excellent foundation in elementary math, but math is NOT a strong subject for me.

 

I had 2 years of pre-algebra with tutoring and was tutored daily in Algebra 1 (sometimes 2x/day) and still struggled through the concepts of it. Geometry was an absolute nightmare and my parents fought with my school counselors to put me down in a lower academic class that wasn't as proof-focused, but the school refused b/c I "tested high".

 

I see the same issues with DS14 and his algebra difficulties. After multiple curriculums we've found his understanding improved a little using the Life of Fred books combined with Khan Academy vids and help from DS18 (who is a math whiz), but DS14 still struggles daily to get through it.

 

Our plan is to finish Alg 1, move into Alg 2, then Geo, and finish with a consumer math/personal finance type course combined with Eco. I wouldn't even bother teaching Alg 2 if I thought he'd be able to get into any college, even CC, without it. :glare:

[Mandy in TN]

In the TN ps's everyone is required to take 4 math credits - including Algebra I, II, Geometry and a fourth higher level math course. Does this mean that TN students test better or know more math than students in other states?

 

Requiring these courses of all students just means that the content has been lowered and the skill level required to pass the lowered content level is also lower. This helps no one and is a tremendous disservice to those students who actually need those math skills to do well in college maths.

 

Some of these students desperately need to take remedial math, pre-Alg, life skills math, and then maybe Alg1 (a true Alg1) as seniors.

 

It saddens me to think that a student who is prepared for Alg2 and desperately wants to go to college will not cover the material to do really well on college testing simply because the state has decided that everyone needs to take Alg2.

 

Mandy

[Ellie]

Then, IMO, it's the fault of your algebra class in high school and not the subject. You obviously are able to do the math. I imagine that given the right teacher and/or curriculum, you wouldn't have developed such an aversion for the subject. You might never have liked it... but you obviously have the capacity to understand it.

Maybe, but the thing is I don't care :D and I don't think I've been less successful in life because I didn't love algebra, or that I would have been less successful if I hadn't done that one pathetic year.

 

And for that reason, I'm on the side that says no, algebra isn't important. Basic arithmetic is. I'd rather be sure that children who spent 12 years in school are literate, can use language well, have an understanding of basic world history and geography, and a more complete understanding of the history of their own country's history and geography, than require every.single.student to have three years of math, algebra and above, to be able to graduate. We hear and read stories all the time of those students who took all the math courses but cannot find their own country on a world map, who have never heard of Shakespeare or Bronte, who cannot string together three coherent sentences, of the major corporations that have to have on-site, bone-head English classes because their *college-graduate* employees are so ignorant of the basics.

 

And that's what I think. :D

[kiana]

Maybe, but the thing is I don't care :D and I don't think I've been less successful in life because I didn't love algebra, or that I would have been less successful if I hadn't done that one pathetic year.

 

And for that reason, I'm on the side that says no, algebra isn't important. Basic arithmetic is. I'd rather be sure that children who spent 12 years in school are literate, can use language well, have an understanding of basic world history and geography, and a more complete understanding of the history of their own country's history and geography, than require every.single.student to have three years of math, algebra and above, to be able to graduate. We hear and read stories all the time of those students who took all the math courses but cannot find their own country on a world map, who have never heard of Shakespeare or Bronte, who cannot string together three coherent sentences, of the major corporations that have to have on-site, bone-head English classes because their *college-graduate* employees are so ignorant of the basics.

 

And that's what I think. :D

 

But -- why is hearing of Shakespeare or Bronte more important than one of the great leaps forward in human thought, namely the concept of variables?

 

(Please note, I'm NOT saying Shakespeare isn't important. But I am saying 'I'd rather have people read Shakespeare than do algebra' is rather biased -- there are plenty of people who would similarly argue that they never enjoyed Shakespeare, never got anything out of it, and could easily have gone their entire lives with more enjoyment having never read it.)

 

About being able to write a basic English sentence, there I totally agree. But I would put being able to compose a literate sentence in the same category with being able to make change or halve a recipe. It's the arithmetic of English.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Absolutely necessary.

 

Believe me, dd would have been thrilled to never do algebra, or geometry, or to be beginning algebra 2 this week. It's been character building, it's stretched her mind, given her confidence, and made her a better person to contribute to society. The "it's too hard" whine that permeates our society on every level has put us at a distinct disadvantage when compared internationally, and it's shameful.

[Perry]

nm

Edited July 30, 2012 by Perry

[TravelingChris]

HOWEVER. If students really did have that solid grounding in arithmetic, Algebra 1 would be a piece of cake. They don't. Not even close. I have tutored dozens of kids at various points along the "good at math" continuum, including seriously remedial cases, and every single kid (or adult) that I've tutored who had trouble with algebra was really having trouble with arithmetic. Some didn't know what multiplication and division really did. Most didn't understand fractions, decimals, percents, rates, ratios and proportions and how they're all the same thing...Once that was mastered, algebra was easy.

 

 

That is what I have found too. Furthermore, I think innemeracy is a much larger problem in our country than illiteracy.

 

Oh, and learning disabilities- two of my kids have these. BOth were not only able to get through algebra but get through it without any major problems. I am amazed how well the one did considering that she has a specific visual and thinking defect that makes doing math much harder for her. BUt she got through algebra, geometry, algebra II and ended up with an A in precalculus in college and was getting an A in trig in college too. My other one had issues with dyslexia and reversals and we found that by doing the equations in cursive, she had no more problems.

 

HOwever, I think the push for more and more math, more and more AP, etc. is misguided as a public policy. I know of a rising senior this year who was pushed into AP BIo at her school, and this girl got an 18 on her ACT. She hated biology in the first place, doesn't care at all what she got on her AP test (and I would bet it is a 1 or 2), and according to my dd, doesn't seem to know much biology at all. But, hey, the school got to claim that X number of students are now taking AP classes!

 

That is something I do like about our new school superintendent here. He came from being a Colonel in the US Army, having a PhD in economics and teaching at West Point. Some teachers were upset that he didn't go through the whole educational system. I like it. He keeps talking to parents and the public about the disconnect with what is happening in the schools and what is needed by colleges and employers. For example, he talked with one young man who had a 4.0 in high school and a 23 on the ACT and this guy thought he could get into West Point. He couldn't- that ACT score was akin to a C, not a 4.0. Not to say that a kid with a 23 can't get into college, they can. BUt not to a premier institution like West Point or Stanford or name your own premier institution.

[Mandy in TN]

HOwever, I think the push for more and more math, more and more AP, etc. is misguided as a public policy.

This. :iagree:

That is something I do like about our new school superintendent here. He came from being a Colonel in the US Army, having a PhD in economics and teaching at West Point. Some teachers were upset that he didn't go through the whole educational system. I like it. He keeps talking to parents and the public about the disconnect with what is happening in the schools and what is needed by colleges and employers. For example, he talked with one young man who had a 4.0 in high school and a 23 on the ACT and this guy thought he could get into West Point. He couldn't- that ACT score was akin to a C, not a 4.0. Not to say that a kid with a 23 can't get into college, they can. BUt not to a premier institution like West Point or Stanford or name your own premier institution.

This. Who cares if your high school transcript from the TN public hs says that you have taken 4 years of math if your ACT proves that those courses are not up to par?

 

Mandy

[Deniseibase]

"I advise my students to listen carefully the moment they decide to take no more mathematics courses. They might be able to hear the sound of closing doors." - James Caballero

[Lisbeth]

I have the same thoughts about "higher" math as about other "thinking" subjects like latin and logic. In the high school years you are learning how to think. When you take algebra or geometry, you are practicing skills that can be used across the board. You are learning to be a problem solver. You are also learning to be detail-oriented and methodic in your work. And, of course, persistent. Very few people will factor large polynomials in their future careers, but the mental process required to get the correct answer is good exercise for the developing brain.

 

I think that anything over 10th grade should be elective. You can go the vocational route, you can focus in an area of interest, or you can prepare for college admission in your area of choice. I don't think everyone needs calculus, but certainly basic algebra and geometry.

 

This! I also think it is kind of sad to have this discussion. This seems uniquely American, though, maybe I am wrong. If anything, I think we need more rigor when it comes to math and science.

[gardenmom5]

absolutely! algebra is necessary for a basic understanding of science. (I consider the high school lab sciences basic.)

 

I required my kids to go through high school calculus. (only one resisted, and is now wanting to take it.)

[Trilliums]

It is definitely needed for my kids to pursue their interests (science/engineering).

 

Oddly enough, older DS struggled terribly with lower level computational math. It wasn't until he started Algebra that he began to enjoy math. Now he does extra math because he enjoys the thought processes involved. Don't give up on math for your kids even if they struggle in elementary years. It could all come together for them conceptually at a later time.

 

Younger DS needed a thorough basic math review (Thank you Khsn Academy!!) before he could tackle algebra and it has definitely expanded his critical thinking and problem solving skills.

[Lady Florida.]

I think students need a good foundation in arithmetic, basic algebra such as Algebra I, and basic geometry (no proofs). Beyond that, it should be based on career plans. I agree with the statements in the article that not everyone needs to be on the path to calculus.

 

The math push is a result of the Space Race, and really doesn't look at students as individuals. Certainly if you even think you might want a STEM career then you should plan to take higher math. But if you already know that's not where you're headed, then I don't think it's necessary.

[Pemberley]

I understand that most people will NOT use algebra in their every-day lives, HOWEVER...

I believe that algebra shows its value in the fact that if teaches logic...thinking skills...and problem-solving strategies.

That alone is worth the headache of learning algebra. :)

[gardenmom5]

You may have had poor tutors who could not help you find the connection. Algebra 1 is just a final summation of basic math, with variables. I think the difficult part is finding multiple ways to translate it to students, because obviously one way does not fit all.

:iagree: I've a friend who is a high school math teacher. she's encountered MANY high school math teachers who can't do math adequatly. She also shared her observation of math teachers in multiple high schools she has worked at and her children attended, that the GOOD ones have more control over what level they teach, and lousy ones are stuck teaching algebra.

[Ellie]

But -- why is hearing of Shakespeare or Bronte more important than one of the great leaps forward in human thought, namely the concept of variables?

 

:confused:

 

(Please note, I'm NOT saying Shakespeare isn't important. But I am saying 'I'd rather have people read Shakespeare than do algebra' is rather biased -- there are plenty of people who would similarly argue that they never enjoyed Shakespeare, never got anything out of it, and could easily have gone their entire lives with more enjoyment having never read it.)

Of course it's biased, just as you're biased when it comes to thinking that it's important for people to understand the concept of variables.

 

About being able to write a basic English sentence, there I totally agree. But I would put being able to compose a literate sentence in the same category with being able to make change or halve a recipe. It's the arithmetic of English.

People can make change and halve a recipe without ever having to write an equation and solve for X. :)

[kiana]

Of course it's biased, just as you're biased when it comes to thinking that it's important for people to understand the concept of variables.

 

Well, what I was meaning (I think I may have been unclear) is that I would put Shakespeare and algebra on the same level. I wasn't dissin' Shakespeare :P

 

I don't think they should be absolutely required for a basic high school diploma (although college prep would be different). I don't think either is absolutely necessary in everyday life for the average person. But I do think they are both things that a capable student should be exposed to. They're not, though, things (imo) that someone who's completely at sea in the subject should be forced to study in lieu of more fundamental levels of understanding.

 

People can make change and halve a recipe without ever having to write an equation and solve for X. :)

 

I didn't say that they couldn't. Again, what I was meaning is that I would consider studying Shakespeare to be somewhat higher and less fundamental than being able to write a coherent sentence, just as I would consider studying algebra to be somewhat higher and less fundamental than being able to make change and halve a recipe.

[Colleen in NS]

If she finishes the fifth grade Rod and Staff textbook and understands every lesson, she will be able to be a functioning adult with adequate math skills for everyday life. She'll be able to...

 

Be very comfortable with the basic four operations, fractions, and decimals.

Handle her own money and checkbook.

Make change.

Keep a simple business ledger.

Measure for curtains or carpeting.

Know how to figure amounts for either fencing or grass seed.

Order from a catalog.

Figure sales tax.

 

 

 

Tibbie, I think it's great what you are doing with those students of yours. I've read bits of your story over the past few months. Just a quick aside - did you know that R&S publishes a bookkeeping course? I just bought it, and it's excellent. A poster here last year gave me some great help in evaluating it for our needs. Of course, I wouldn't expect anything less than thorough from R&S. Anyway, just mentioning it because you mentioned that your student would be learning how to manage money and a business ledger. This course takes R&S arithmetic even further. And, I do hope she gets to study algebra at some point.

 

I do believe algebra is totally necessary. I wish I had had a better arithmetic foundation and explanation of algebraic concepts, because I know I'd be using the thinking skills today that come through algebra study. I plan to take myself through it again someday, with Dolciani's old texts. I also think geometry is necessary. I've come to understand from here that math is the language of science - what a gift to be able to comprehend science more deeply because of its language. To me, along with understanding of my native verbal language and appreciation of its products, all of these skills give us a greater understanding and appreciation of the world around us.

[Lawana]

No. Not if you don't have any desire to participate in technology. Not if you don't wish to understand statistics and be able to evaluate whether or not the "facts" presented to you have any merit. Not if you don't wish to ever be able to have a job that requires an understanding of higher math concepts. Please, leave all those jobs and evaluations to us. We would be happy to take that off your hands.

[annandatje]

... I do believe algebra is totally necessary. I wish I had had a better arithmetic foundation and explanation of algebraic concepts, because I know I'd be using the thinking skills today that come through algebra study. I ... I also think geometry is necessary. I've come to understand from here that math is the language of science - what a gift to be able to comprehend science more deeply because of its language. To me, along with understanding of my native verbal language and appreciation of its products, all of these skills give us a greater understanding and appreciation of the world around us.

 

:iagree::iagree: This is precisely what I was attempting to convey in a few choppily written sentences.