Penn State Sanctions - What do you think?

[weaver_67579]

You repeatedly say that no one is reading your posts, but are you reading theirs? No one said that the good things Paterno did were no longer true. Just that they weren't relevant. Especially now, while everyone is shocked and angry and grieving over what happened, you feel the need to go on and on and on about the fact that he did good as well? How tasteless. Let people be angry! The man has enough people worshiping him, he doesn't need you rushing to his defense right now.

 

ETA: And yes, I think you are a bad person if you reaction to hearing someone protected a child rapist is, "Well, at least he wins lots of football games." In my world, that absolutely DOES make you a bad person.

 

Do you know me personally? How I felt or even feel now? I was not pointing out whether or not his good deeds were relavent to you or anyone else personally. Why would you assume I am not angry about what happened? I am angry and I have described what happened to the boys and horrific and horrible on many occasions... I was not defending Joe Pa or anyone else having to do with the scandal and also stated that specifically several times. I was stating my disappointment at how, because of this scandal, people were making Penn State out to be a bad place in general and that the whole community was in some way implicated in what happened. I know a lot of people that live up there, that work for the university and that are alumni. Do most of the people on here? I am defending people that I know personally that still think he was a great coach. I am pointing out that they can still remember the good he did (and I'm not necessarily talking of winning football games) without being bad people. I also do not know anyone that thought or ever said what I have bolded above. You have taken what I did say and twisted it to fit into your apparent dislike of me and my statement of a simple fact that people can be both good and bad and neither is mutually exclusive. I didn't ever say or imply that the bad he did do was not very bad indeed-or that it will not likely be what he is remembered for to many people-most people. And when I posted last night-I had read all of the posts till that time-there could have been several while I was typing up some long responses (that got lost....grrrr) that I didn't see before I logged off, but would have still been in the time while I was logged in. I didn't read everything this morning yet-will do later. I get that many think Joe Pa's good isn't relevent...that doesn't make it untrue for the people that have experienced it...

[Juniper]

I think that a large part of the problem here is that people who do not understand abuse or the culture of abuse are offering opinions about how abuse and the culture of abuse should be handled.

 

Before offering emotional pleas for the innocent bystanders, do your homework. Go talk to a few caseworkers. Read up on abusive systems such as cults. Research what happened within the Catholic church and why it flourished.

 

What happened at Penn State is actually textbook typical for both abuse and for the culture of abuse. Before spouting uninformed opinions far and wide, do your homework.

 

 

:iagree: but so is the denial and justification of that culture by those who are enmeshed in it. It is very unfortunate.

[Harriet Vane]

:iagree: but so is the denial and justification of that culture by those who are enmeshed in it. It is very unfortunate.

 

:iagree: Indeed.

[Mimm]

Do you know me personally? How I felt or even feel now? I was not pointing out whether or not his good deeds were relavent to you or anyone else personally. Why would you assume I am not angry about what happened? I am angry and I have described what happened to the boys and horrific and horrible on many occasions... I was not defending Joe Pa or anyone else having to do with the scandal and also stated that specifically several times. I was stating my disappointment at how, because of this scandal, people were making Penn State out to be a bad place in general and that the whole community was in some way implicated in what happened. I know a lot of people that live up there, that work for the university and that are alumni. Do most of the people on here? I am defending people that I know personally that still think he was a great coach. I am pointing out that they can still remember the good he did (and I'm not necessarily talking of winning football games) without being bad people. I also do not know anyone that thought or ever said what I have bolded above. You have taken what I did say and twisted it to fit into your apparent dislike of me and my statement of a simple fact that people can be both good and bad and neither is mutually exclusive. I didn't ever say or imply that the bad he did do was not very bad indeed-or that it will not likely be what he is remembered for to many people-most people. And when I posted last night-I had read all of the posts till that time-there could have been several while I was typing up some long responses (that got lost....grrrr) that I didn't see before I logged off, but would have still been in the time while I was logged in. I didn't read everything this morning yet-will do later. I get that many think Joe Pa's good isn't relevent...that doesn't make it untrue for the people that have experienced it...

 

That was a general you, not specific. And no, I don't know you, I only know what you've posted in this thread and you've posted a lot more about how Paterno actually did some good than about whatever feelings of outrage you may have about the actual victims in all this. You'll have to forgive me if I jump to the conclusion that your priorities are a little out of order.

 

ETA: And because you like pointing this type of thing out, I'll point out that I never said that was your reaction. I said that IF that is your (meaning, a person's) reaction THEN you (they) are a bad person.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Mimm

[Mom23Boys]

:iagree: but so is the denial and justification of that culture by those who are enmeshed in it. It is very unfortunate.

 

 

I have been thinking about this whole situation since the sanctions get out and cannot understand people's reactions to the sanctions. But, once I realized (both here and other places) that the people defending Penn State were by and large alumni/people who live local. The majority (of people on FB feed that I know) of people protesting sanctions on "innocents" are people who don't understand NCAA sanctions almost always affect innocent people. It is just the nature of the beast.

 

I think the culture at Penn State played a huge part in the crimes being covered up and allowed to go as long as possible.

 

I am an LSU fan and live close to the school. I graduated from there and my dad was the mascot for 2 years when he was in school there. We are huge fans. Our fans are crazy. But, I don't see a cover-up being allowed to happen here. We have had coaches who have had huge wins lose a game (that was supposed to be tough) and wake up the next morning to "For Sale" signs in his front yard. Multiple times, multiple coaches. There isn't a culture of worship of coaches/individuals here. Football worship? Yes. Attached to a person? No. And the willingness to get rid of a coach isn't just attached to wins/loses. Les Miles faced tons of flack and calls to fire him when he was plastered on the front page of the newspaper with a sweater tied around his neck, singing the alma mater. :tongue_smilie: Even though he was winning. FTR, I wouldn't want to be the coach at LSU, we are a tough crowd to please.

 

I would never say that abuse *couldn't* happen here. But, I can't think of many colleges where the coaches have as much worship and power as Paterno did at Penn State. At LSU, our coaches/coaching staff change frequently. Not usually yearly, but often. As does the chancellor and other positions within the university.

[FaithManor]

I think the sanctions and the fines are appropriate. As with ALL crime, innocent people end up paying some consequence. It's the law of nature since we aren't all totally independent of the culture in which we live. One would have to be a hermit and live on a deserted island in order to escape the consequences of other peoples' actions. The consequences to Penn State and the community are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR less than the consequences to the children abused by Sandusky and the families suffer untold indignities and anguish through this process. You can't set a price tag on what it has cost them and Penn State should be on it's knees thankful that the penalties and sanctions weren't worse. The community will adapt.

 

However, I think $60 million is the tip of the iceberg. The victim's will likely get large settlements from the institution since the cover-up was so deep and then it will remain to be seen if Penn State can get liability insurance after that and at what cost it will be IF they can get it.

 

The fire that purifies is painful, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to burn for the greater good.

 

Faith

[myfunnybunch]

The crimes continued in part because Paterno and the other administrators were worried about the "huge monetary loss" that would no doubt result if the Penn State football program were disgraced by Sandusky. So, a "huge monetary fine" seems an entirely fair penalty. Innocent people have benefited from the football program's reputation and largesse (whether they are football fans or not) and now they are suffering due to the actions of a few concerning that same football program.

 

:iagree:

 

I think we need to remember the sanctions are not intended solely as a consequence for those at Penn State. They are also a very clear message to other NCAA programs: If you do wrong, or look the other way when wrong is being done, we will hit you where it hurts. This can never happen again. If any program doesn't step up to do the right thing, it's going to hurt them where it's most meaningful to them, right in the pocketbook.

 

This whole thing is so ugly, I don't think there's a way to tie it up in a neat little package and make sure that only the perpetrators of the actual crimes get punished. Ugly crime, ugly cover-up and justifications, ugly fallout.

 

At the end of the day, I still find myself thinking, "Those poor babies."

 

Cat

[pdalley]

:iagree:

 

I think we need to remember the sanctions are not intended solely as a consequence for those at Penn State. They are also a very clear message to other NCAA programs: If you do wrong, or look the other way when wrong is being done, we will hit you where it hurts. This can never happen again. If any program doesn't step up to do the right thing, it's going to hurt them where it's most meaningful to them, right in the pocketbook.

 

This whole thing is so ugly, I don't think there's a way to tie it up in a neat little package and make sure that only the perpetrators of the actual crimes get punished. Ugly crime, ugly cover-up and justifications, ugly fallout.

 

At the end of the day, I still find myself thinking, "Those poor babies."

 

Cat

 

:iagree:

 

My youngest is ten. The age of the boy McQuery saw - or approx since no one cared enough to find out who that child was. I look at his sweet face - the freckles on his nose. I think about him being abused by some sicko not only was it not stopped there were other little boys that followed this little boy.

 

And they were more worried about 'the program'. Than a little boy who'd already been let down by the world when he came into Sandusky program.

 

Yes, I do take it personally that football came before the innocence of little boys. No, I do not think that looking the other way and allowing that to happen is ok because well, he was a good football coach who was quote worthy. I shall never hear his name without thinking 'pedophile enabler'.

[Galatea]

I think it is totally unfair to lump all fans, staff, alumni, and students in with these crimes committed by a handful of people. I also think it is unfair to punish innocent bystanders when it is avoidable. I think all of the sanctions except for the huge monetary fine are possibly fair. I still worry that the huge monetary fine will affect all of the students and staff and possibly the town at Penn State who have nothing to do with this.

 

I also disagree that everyone is involved in football culture at a school or that football culture equates with not wanting to protect the safety of children. I for one attended a college (not Penn State) where football culture and party culture was rampant and yet I detest football and the party culture and always have. I went to college for schooling and I suspect most college folks do the same. I think this football culture and party culture is rampant at schools all across the country. I also know many good people who have attended Penn State or work for Penn State and some who even like football (gasp) who are all good people who would never ever tolerate the abuse of children.

 

I think this tragedy was caused by a few bad men period.

 

I LOVE football. But I don't worship it. I don't think any of the coaches or players I know are worthy of worship, because they are just people, like me. Do you really not think that Penn State and that community worshiped Joe Paterno? To the point where they all bent over for what he wanted? They all worshiped Paterno so much that when Sandusky was arrested in November 2011, NINE YEARS after McQueary SAW a boy being raped in a shower on Penn State grounds, Sandusky still had his keys to the building.

 

From the Freeh report, via Wikipedia: "According to details in the Freeh Report released July 12, 2012: Despite being aware of Sandusky's sexual misconduct with young boys in the locker-room showers in the Lasch Building in 1998, and 2001, Spanier, Paterno, Curley, and Schultz never restricted Sandusky's access to Penn State facilities. The report states that Sandusky had access to the Lasch Building until November 2011. Over the next ten-year period, Sandusky "was frequently at the Lasch Building working out, showing up at campus events that Penn State supported...He was showering with young boys, staying in dormitories...There are more red flags than you could count, over a long period of time."[36] Consequently, out of the 10 young boys that Sandusky would be convicted of sexually assaulting, most of them were abused after he was investigated in 1998[37] — five of them were assaulted "at Penn State’s football facilities and other places on campus after May 1998".[38]"

 

The report, which was commissioned by Penn State itself, makes it clear that the administration at Penn State and Joe Paterno, knew about Sandusky and made a clear decision, mostly on Paterno's pressure, not to report the incident McQuery observed. Why? Because football and it's money and it's fame was more important to them than any boy Sandusky might have raped.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I LOVE football. But I don't worship it. I don't think any of the coaches or players I know are worthy of worship, because they are just people, like me. Do you really not think that Penn State and that community worshiped Joe Paterno? To the point where they all bent over for what he wanted? They all worshiped Paterno so much that when Sandusky was arrested in November 2011, NINE YEARS after McQueary SAW a boy being raped in a shower on Penn State grounds, Sandusky still had his keys to the building.

 

From the Freeh report, via Wikipedia: "According to details in the Freeh Report released July 12, 2012: Despite being aware of Sandusky's sexual misconduct with young boys in the locker-room showers in the Lasch Building in 1998, and 2001, Spanier, Paterno, Curley, and Schultz never restricted Sandusky's access to Penn State facilities. The report states that Sandusky had access to the Lasch Building until November 2011. Over the next ten-year period, Sandusky "was frequently at the Lasch Building working out, showing up at campus events that Penn State supported...He was showering with young boys, staying in dormitories...There are more red flags than you could count, over a long period of time."[36] Consequently, out of the 10 young boys that Sandusky would be convicted of sexually assaulting, most of them were abused after he was investigated in 1998[37] — five of them were assaulted "at Penn State’s football facilities and other places on campus after May 1998".[38]"

 

The report, which was commissioned by Penn State itself, makes it clear that the administration at Penn State and Joe Paterno, knew about Sandusky and made a clear decision, mostly on Paterno's pressure, not to report the incident McQuery observed. Why? Because football and it's money and it's fame was more important to them than any boy Sandusky might have raped.

 

Again, you are talking about a small group of men at Penn State. I totally agree that these men should be punished. I do not agree that means everyone associated with Penn State is guilty.

 

ETA: I also do not think that because someone "worshiped" Joe Paterno makes them complicit or aware of these heinous crimes before they came to light. To me that is quite a stretch.

Edited July 24, 2012 by priscilla

[weaver_67579]

That was a general you, not specific. And no, I don't know you, I only know what you've posted in this thread and you've posted a lot more about how Paterno actually did some good than about whatever feelings of outrage you may have about the actual victims in all this. You'll have to forgive me if I jump to the conclusion that your priorities are a little out of order.

 

ETA: And because you like pointing this type of thing out, I'll point out that I never said that was your reaction. I said that IF that is your (meaning, a person's) reaction THEN you (they) are a bad person.

 

I have not heard of a single person that was not outraged by the actions of Jerry Sandusky.

[myfunnybunch]

In that he was able to teach his players the skills of the game-I clarified that somewhere else on this monstrous thing. I guess you didn't find that ;) I think his large number of wins over the years can attest to that point. I am not defending him as a person. I didn't know him personally and am waiting to all the proof to shake out in the trials to come, I have a feeling we will be finding out more... and once again. I am only stating facts... Joe Pa was a successful coach with the wins attensting to that. It is also likely true that he didn't do enough to help those boys. One of the facts does not make the other of those facts untrue. They can both be true. People that think he did a good and effective job coaching are correct and those that think he harbored a pedophile can be right.. and most all of the people I know believe both to be true... Why is that such a problem for people to get? Why is that so offensive when they are just neutral facts?

 

You know, in an earlier post, you asked if anyone was reading your posts. I wonder, gently and kindly, if you are able to read them and see what others are seeing. I get that you want to defend those who can still see his accomplishments, but I come away from reading your posts wondering why you're still defending Paterno, not why you're defending his supporters. Please understand that I am not misunderstanding part of your message or attributing things to you that you haven't said. I just don't think there is a neutral here, nor should there be in the face of such grievous harm.

 

Anyone even remotely aware of the sports world knows that coaching is so much more than teaching an athlete physical skills. It's also about personality and inspiration and confidence.

 

How do you think the athletes who looked up to Paterno, who were inspired by his words about integrity and honor and doing the right thing, who wanted to emulate him, feel right now as they realize that those words were empty air? They must feel devasted that they looked up to a man who valued the appearance of honor, integrity, and justice over the reality.

 

His actions, or lack of, rather, DO invalidate his accomplishments as a coach. He failed. Regardless of records or skills or accomplishments, as a coach and as a human being, he failed. Period.

 

Cat

[pdalley]

I have not heard of a single person that was not outraged by the actions of Jerry Sandusky.

 

Obviously Joe Paterno was not. Or he'd of stopped it, right? Or Spanier, or Curley, or Shultz. I mean, Joe wasn't even outraged enough to 'ruin someone's weekend'.

 

Again, I'd like for someone who is claiming this is too harsh to tell me just what the NCAA was supposed to do? Penn State is a member - by their own choice - of the NCAA. They agree to be bound by their rules of conduct. Penn State solicited and agreed to be bound by the findings of the Freeh report which contained a conspiracy to violate the ethics clauses of the NCAA.

 

Any single time the NCAA punishes a school for violations people who had nothing to do with said violations suffer.

 

So since the perps aren't generally forthcoming about the violations at the time they are occurring and are only found out sometimes years after the fact just what punishment should be handed out? Should they even attempt to punish because some innocent people might be affected? Why have any rules at all? It is impossible to punish the guilty without some innocent having to suffer also.

 

This is separate from the legal issues. Has nothing to do with those.

 

The NCAA had an obligation to slap Penn State so hard that no other school would EVER dream of doing something like this again. Ever. I am no general fan of the way the NCAA punishes schools but this time they did it right. And I think they should be given credit for it.

[Outinthegarden]

Well, I'm gonna step out on a limb here - this is my first post, but I read a lot! (you ladies are a wealth of information and I am sooo grateful that you are here :001_smile:)

 

I am disgusted with everything that has transpired at Penn State. While I'm sure this won't be popular - I personally don't think we really should have such a thing as "college football". College should really be about higher education and knowledge for your chosen profession (doctors, lawyers, computer guys, etc.) For me that was really the bigger question about the scandal - tell me again WHY we need to have college football?? Maybe tutution wouldn't be so high if it was about going to school to get an education verses sports and partying?

 

Before someone blasts me - ;) - let me admit - I am a Penn State Graduate, I didn't go there because of football/partying - I really went there for my education. (I am originally from Pittsburgh and now live in Tennessee)

 

And one of my questions about all of this is WHY is McQuery STILL employeed at Penn State. He should be fired, as he is just as much at fault as the rest.

 

Ok, I'm done with my rant :lol:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, I'm gonna step out on a limb here - this is my first post, but I read a lot! (you ladies are a wealth of information and I am sooo grateful that you are here :001_smile:)

 

I am disgusted with everything that has transpired at Penn State. While I'm sure this won't be popular - I personally don't think we really should have such a thing as "college football". College should really be about higher education and knowledge for your chosen profession (doctors, lawyers, computer guys, etc.) For me that was really the bigger question about the scandal - tell me again WHY we need to have college football?? Maybe tutution wouldn't be so high if it was about going to school to get an education verses sports and partying?

 

Because people enjoy it?

 

And one of my questions about all of this is WHY is McQuery STILL employeed at Penn State. He should be fired, as he is just as much at fault as the rest.

 

He is likely protected under Pennsylvania's Whistleblower law. He is employed but is no longer a coach.

[Haiku]

Joe Pa was a great coach.

 

So what?

 

I think the key idea that you're missing here is that people are too raw from the discovery of what happened to those kids to care in any way, shape, or form about anything that Joe Paterno was good at. He covered up child rape. To many people, that's all that matters, because child rape matters a whole helluva lot more than football. And so, as you continue to insist that this man had some good in him, you just come across as very insensitive and with priorities that are out of whack. I'm not saying either of those things are true of you, but that's how you're coming across.

 

Because, as I read your posts, I'm just thinking, "Who really cares whether he was a good coach? He was a morally scummy person."

 

Tara

[Spy Car]

Joe Pa was a great coach.

 

No. He was not a great coach. A great coach serves as a moral example for young men and women. Joe Paterno was an absolute failure as a coach.

 

His teams may have won some games (victories that have now been vacated) but he destroyed the football program at Penn State, tarnished the school's reputation, removed a sense of pride from the athletes who played under him for all those years, and—worst of all—enabled child rape.

 

Not a good coach. Not a good man. "Joe Pa" (and the nickname makes me want to vomit in my mouth) was a criminal who rightly should have spent his last days in a prison cell. His death cheated justice in this case.

 

Bill (who is becoming more and more convinced the football program should have been shut down for a decade)

[Kathryn]

No. He was not a great coach. A great coach serves as a moral example for young men and women. Joe Paterno was an absolute failure as a coach.

 

His teams may have won some games (victories that have now been vacated) but he destroyed the football program at Penn State, tarnished the school's reputation, removed a sense of pride from the athletes who played under him for all those years, and—worst of all—enabled child rape.

 

Not a good coach. Not a good man. "Joe Pa" (and the nickname makes me want to vomit in my mouth) was a criminal who rightly should have spent his last days in a prison cell. His death cheated justice in this case.

 

Bill (who is becoming more and more convinced the football program should have been shut down for a decade)

 

I emphatically agree, especially with the cutesy nickname that implies he was like a father.

[Mommy22alyns]

You have no idea how ridiculous your argument sounds, do you? SO WHAT if Paterno was a fantastic coach?! That is irrelevant in light of his misdeeds.

 

John Wayne Gacy killed 33 boys, but by gosh let's not all forget that he was first and foremost a fantastic clown. :001_rolleyes::001_rolleyes:

 

Exactly. Some people seem to have lost all perspective.

[weaver_67579]

Do you know me personally? How I felt or even feel now? I was not pointing out whether or not his good deeds were relavent to you or anyone else personally. Why would you assume I am not angry about what happened? I am angry and I have described what happened to the boys and horrific and horrible on many occasions... I was not defending Joe Pa or anyone else having to do with the scandal and also stated that specifically several times. I was stating my disappointment at how, because of this scandal, people were making Penn State out to be a bad place in general and that the whole community was in some way implicated in what happened. I also am not happy that innocent people will pay consequences for the actions of a relative few creepy jerks. I do not believe it is ever ok to punish the innocent. Apparently others don't agree. I know a lot of people that live up there, that work for the university and that are alumni. Do most of the people on here? I am defending people that I know personally that still think he was a great coach. I am pointing out that they can still remember the good he did (and I'm not necessarily talking of winning football games) without being bad people. You (as in whoever you) have taken what I did say and twisted it to fit into your apparent dislike of my statement of a simple fact that people can be both good and bad and neither is mutually exclusive. I didn't ever say or imply that the bad he did do was not very bad indeed-or that it will not likely be what he is remembered for to many people-most people. I get that many think Joe Pa's good isn't relevent...that doesn't make it untrue for the people that have experienced it...

 

No. He was not a great coach. A great coach serves as a moral example for young men and women. Joe Paterno was an absolute failure as a coach.

 

His teams may have won some games (victories that have now been vacated) but he destroyed the football program at Penn State, tarnished the school's reputation, removed a sense of pride from the athletes who played under him for all those years, and—worst of all—enabled child rape.

 

Not a good coach. Not a good man. "Joe Pa" (and the nickname makes me want to vomit in my mouth) was a criminal who rightly should have spent his last days in a prison cell. His death cheated justice in this case.

 

Bill (who is becoming more and more convinced the football program should have been shut down for a decade)

 

bolded parts I added now

 

Do you not get that was not the point of my quote above yours as well as many many others I posted last night? It is my dislike of people making judgements about people's motives and beliefs based solely on the fact that they may have found Joe Pa to be a good coach. on top of that, I don't recall anyone saying Sandusky, Joe Pa or anyone else should not have born the brunt of the full extent of the punishment for whatever laws they broke and likely whatever civil punishments that the victims could sue them for. I know I have not. I also don't think I saw anyone that stated that no NCAA sanctions should have been applied-did you find that anywhere?

[Krista in LA]

I'm so glad all you judgemental people know the whole truth about everything. Wow.

[Spy Car]

bolded parts I added now

 

Do you not get that was not the point of my quote above yours as well as many many others I posted last night? It is my dislike of people making judgements about people's motives and beliefs based solely on the fact that they may have found Joe Pa to be a good coach. on top of that, I don't recall anyone saying Sandusky, Joe Pa or anyone else should not have born the brunt of the full extent of the punishment for whatever laws they broke and likely whatever civil punishments that the victims could sue them for. I know I have not. I also don't think I saw anyone that stated that no NCAA sanctions should have been applied-did you find that anywhere?

 

My point is that Joe Paterno was not a "good coach," and not a "great coach." He was a failed coach.

 

Bill

[Joker]

I'm so glad all you judgemental people know the whole truth about everything. Wow.

 

I have zero problem saying I've judged those who rape children and/or help cover it up to be scum.

[Spy Car]

I have zero problem saying I've judged those who rape children and/or help cover it up to be scum.

 

I feel the same.

 

Bill

[aggieamy]

I'm so glad all you judgemental people know the whole truth about everything. Wow.

 

I didn't realize that we weren't all in agreement that people who rape children are bad. People who know others are raping children and do nothing about it are also bad. Who doesn't agree with that?!?!

[Caroline]

I just heard on ESPN that State Farm has pulled their ads from all Penn State games.

[Kathryn]

I feel the same.

 

Bill

 

Ditto.

 

I didn't realize that we weren't all in agreement that people who rape children are bad. People who know others are raping children and do nothing about it are also bad. Who doesn't agree with that?!?!

 

Agree. And the fact that you even have to type this has me laughing in disbelief.

[Kathryn]

I just heard on ESPN that State Farm has pulled their ads from all Penn State games.

 

Well, Penn State's image certainly doesn't go well with the slogan "like a good neighbor, State Farm is there."

[Krista in LA]

I agree with regards to Sandusky. However, I don't have all of the facts despite reading way too much about it all, and I have a hard time believing that anybody on this board knows everything that transpired especially since dead men can't talk. And we certainly can't believe everything that the media says....

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Krista in LA]

The President of Penn State - the current one - seems to 'get' it. He is accepting the Freeh report they commissioned. He is accepting the penalty from the NCAA. He is taking the responsibility that none of the others - Spanier, Curley, Paterno, etc did. Even though he wasn't there at the time.

 

Actually it's not a matter of him getting it. He's rolling over and playing dead hoping that the publicity nightmare will pass over as quickly as possible.

[NittanyJen]

I am amazed that a group of people who purport to teach their children about American government and logic are so gleeful about seeing someone destroyed with zero due process and a 'report' as grievously flawed and based on speculation, supposition, and lack of evidence as the Freeh Report.

 

I hope everyone here, if facts ever come to light that show Joe in a different light than the biased and poorly presented Freeh Report present him, that every one of you is as vigorously apologetic for your slander as you have been in slamming a man who you insist lived his life well, ran the best team in college football (check our graduation rates and GPA's in our division, as well as the majors and later careers of our players-- doctors, lawyers, engineers...) and who always put the character development of his players ahead of "looking good for the media," whom you insist without explanation, suddenly had a change of heart and behavior in the last ten years of his career.

 

But facts are far less fun than this giant rage party everyone is having, I know. It is so much easier just to lap up what the media feeds you uncritically and believe everything you hear.

[Juniper]

Actually it's not a matter of him getting it. He's rolling over and playing dead hoping that the publicity nightmare will pass over as quickly as possible.

 

I know it looks like that right now, but I guarantee that he is sorrounded by psychologists that specialize in group/communtiy rebuilding, lawyers, and specialists. From my perspective his approach combined with NCAA sanctions actually give me hope for PSU being able to come back from this at its core.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I am amazed that a group of people who purport to teach their children about American government and logic are so gleeful about seeing someone destroyed with zero due process and a 'report' as grievously flawed and based on speculation, supposition, and lack of evidence as the Freeh Report.

 

I am certainly willing to learn more.

 

Can you please explain *specifically* how the Freeh Report is "gregiously flawed"? I have read it, but if you have more/better/contradicting information I would gladly hear it.

[pdalley]

I am certainly willing to learn more.

 

Can you please explain *specifically* how the Freeh Report is "gregiously flawed"? I have read it, but if you have more/better/contradicting information I would gladly hear it.

 

Supposedly Joe didn't use email. So we can't know for sure the email referred to him. I read it also. I also read the NCAA report and they did a pretty good job of summarizing.

 

Let's talk about logic. There is no way on this earth that I do not believe Joe knew if a mouse farted in that football program. I know how those programs are run. I live in the ACC - basketball conference that has rabid fans. Down here kids get a team affiliation before they get baptized. I wish I was kidding.

 

And Joe was SUPPOSED to know if a mouse farted in that program. That was his job. I might believe he didn't want to know. But I just cannot fathom that he didn't know. He did know about the little boy in 2001. That he did know.

 

None of us had access to the documents the Freeh investigative team did. All we know is what was entered into evidence at the Sandusky trial. We know from the prosecutors office that Penn State drug their heels at giving them full access to those documents. So I can't understand - by the same token - how people just know the Freeh report was flawed because they can't see those documents any more than I can.

 

It doesn't matter. Penn State has accepted the Freeh report as it is.

 

I just cannot understand people are foaming at the mouth to still try and protect a man's reputation when he didn't even care enough to find out who the boy was in the shower with Sandusky when McQuery reported it to him. So even if he truly 'didn't know' that alone would make me suspect his purported fine character. If he cared so much about children then why didn't he find this child? Demand the name from Sandusky?

 

I will never think of Paterno without hypocrite springing to mind right after. He said one thing and did another.

 

Ten little boys. Ten that we know about. But by all means, let's give Joe a pass because he died. And hey, he was a great coach.

[Katy]

Supposedly Joe didn't use email. So we can't know for sure the email referred to him. I read it also. I also read the NCAA report and they did a pretty good job of summarizing.

 

Let's talk about logic. There is no way on this earth that I do not believe Joe knew if a mouse farted in that football program. I know how those programs are run. I live in the ACC - basketball conference that has rabid fans. Down here kids get a team affiliation before they get baptized. I wish I was kidding.

 

And Joe was SUPPOSED to know if a mouse farted in that program. That was his job. I might believe he didn't want to know. But I just cannot fathom that he didn't know. He did know about the little boy in 2001. That he did know.

 

None of us had access to the documents the Freeh investigative team did. All we know is what was entered into evidence at the Sandusky trial. We know from the prosecutors office that Penn State drug their heels at giving them full access to those documents. So I can't understand - by the same token - how people just know the Freeh report was flawed because they can't see those documents any more than I can.

 

It doesn't matter. Penn State has accepted the Freeh report as it is.

 

I just cannot understand people are foaming at the mouth to still try and protect a man's reputation when he didn't even care enough to find out who the boy was in the shower with Sandusky when McQuery reported it to him. So even if he truly 'didn't know' that alone would make me suspect his purported fine character. If he cared so much about children then why didn't he find this child? Demand the name from Sandusky?

 

I will never think of Paterno without hypocrite springing to mind right after. He said one thing and did another.

 

Ten little boys. Ten that we know about. But by all means, let's give Joe a pass because he died. And hey, he was a great coach.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Except, more have come forward. Now it's 14 boys.

[Catwoman]

After reading several pages of this thread, I am quite amazed by the "we are Penn State" attitude that a few of the alumni here have expressed.

 

I guess things are different for them than they are for me, because once I finished college (not at Penn State, BTW,) I never would have talked about university issues using the word, "we," because I didn't attend the school any more, and I can't imagine being so attached to my school that I felt I was always going to be a part of it. :confused::confused::confused:

 

I guess school spirit is nice, but I also think some people may take it to a bit of an extreme.

 

I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but am I the only person who thinks of the universities I attended as being "schools I went to," and not "who I am"??? And in all honesty, if something horribly scandalous happened at a school I attended, I wouldn't think criticism leveled at the school and its officials would be some sort of personal insult to me. Because, you know, I don't go there any more, and I don't work there, and I have no personal involvement in the controversy.

 

Again, I don't intend to be mean, but I truly don't understand the mindset.

[OrganicAnn]

After reading this article, I felt it was a culture and that Joe Paterno was responsible for it.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=408068&highlight=penn+state

[Juniper]

After reading several pages of this thread, I am quite amazed by the "we are Penn State" attitude that a few of the alumni here have expressed.

 

I guess things are different for them than they are for me, because once I finished college (not at Penn State, BTW,) I never would have talked about university issues using the word, "we," because I didn't attend the school any more, and I can't imagine being so attached to my school that I felt I was always going to be a part of it. :confused::confused::confused:

 

I guess school spirit is nice, but I also think some people may take it to a bit of an extreme.

 

I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but am I the only person who thinks of the universities I attended as being "schools I went to," and not "who I am"??? And in all honesty, if something horribly scandalous happened at a school I attended, I wouldn't think criticism leveled at the school and its officials would be some sort of personal insult to me. Because, you know, I don't go there any more, and I don't work there, and I have no personal involvement in the controversy.

 

Again, I don't intend to be mean, but I truly don't understand the mindset.

 

I think to some degree people are upset that there is perceived nonchalance about the innocent collateral damage that is going to occur. I get that, but there is no way for it to be avoided.

 

I was thinking about this tonight and realized there is another dynamic going on. Many times in abusive families (lets say incest or molestation) when the victim comes forward, many members of their family will outright deny what happened or subtly blame the victim for causing the family shame. The victim did not cause their shame, but the family is not ready or willing to face the truth. Even when the perpetrator is charged and convicted the family may continue to blame the victim. "She should have handled this differently." Sometimes they do not blame the victim, but they cannot bring themselves to condemn the perpetrator. It is horrible and messy.

 

What happens when this occurs on a community level? A community is like a big family. Especially when it is focused around a unifying element. This community has been through hell, they thought it was wrapped up in the Sandusky trial and other college employees, but then their world publically exploded again with Freeh report (last week) then this week (which is really rapid in these terms) statues have been ripped down, wins rescinded, various other sanctions from the NCAA and "hits" to this community's (family's) unity.

 

I was with my dd at her track club practice tonight, which is held at a prestigious private school. They are doing their final practices before the Junior Olympics. As we were leaving the football team came out and one of the coaches came and made some small talk with me and my younger sons. I looked around and felt a wonderful sense of community and connectedness, but what if that was suddenly ripped away? What if I had years of investment in that community and it was tattered and ripped to shreds in such a public way? It would probably take me quite awhile to come to terms with things.

 

I would probably fight tooth and nail to try and hold it together. I would be frantic and desperate as I saw more and more of my community being pulled under the tide. I would not be ready to let go.

 

I think we are seeing that in the PSU community. They know they cannot blame the victims, but to accept the sanctions and Freeh report is a pill that may be to big to swallow all at once. They are going to need time to process this.

 

Like others I have been frustrated by some of the things I have read, but I have the luxury of distance. This isn't my community so I can look upon the facts without a lot of emotion, but if it was I guarantee you it would take me awhile to be able to accept ALL that had happened.

 

Maybe I am wrong. :D But, I wanted to share these observations.

 

:grouphug:

Edited July 25, 2012 by Juniper

[Kathryn]

After reading several pages of this thread, I am quite amazed by the "we are Penn State" attitude that a few of the alumni here have expressed.

 

I guess things are different for them than they are for me, because once I finished college (not at Penn State, BTW,) I never would have talked about university issues using the word, "we," because I didn't attend the school any more, and I can't imagine being so attached to my school that I felt I was always going to be a part of it. :confused::confused::confused:

 

I guess school spirit is nice, but I also think some people may take it to a bit of an extreme.

 

I'm sorry if my post offends anyone, but am I the only person who thinks of the universities I attended as being "schools I went to," and not "who I am"??? And in all honesty, if something horribly scandalous happened at a school I attended, I wouldn't think criticism leveled at the school and its officials would be some sort of personal insult to me. Because, you know, I don't go there any more, and I don't work there, and I have no personal involvement in the controversy.

 

Again, I don't intend to be mean, but I truly don't understand the mindset.

 

I agree with you AND my alma mater is the college my mother has taught at since before my birth, the institution that granted me a BA and two masters degrees, and employed me until I became a SAHM. I have always and still do live in this community. I think I would feel the exact same way I do now if the situation were here.

[pdalley]

After reading this article, I felt it was a culture and that Joe Paterno was responsible for it.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=408068&highlight=penn+state

 

That was the main reason I didn't buy Paterno wasn't aware of it or that he was always a stand up guy in the first place. This woman told her story to the Freeh investigators but it was not in the Freeh report. It merely served to corroborate the evidence they already had found.

 

I just saw this and it reminded me of the situation and why I'm so disgusted by the deification of Paterno.

 

"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."

~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[Haiku]

the people that still like Joe Pa or admire his coaching skill...or whatever are not necessarily wrong or bad either.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it: Yes, they are.

 

People who like and admire someone who looks the other way when children are raped are wrong. And bad.

 

As far as the innocents suffering deal as regards the NCAA sanctions: There are going to be civil settlements out the wazoo. It is going to financially hurt Penn State. "Innocent students" will suffer from this. Should the victims, therefore, not sue the university because their settlements might impact people who had nothing to do with the situation?

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I don't really care if he was an effective coach if he was an ineffective human being when it mattered most.

 

Yup.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

That does not make the good things he had no longer true

 

Maybe it doesn't, but it makes them not matter.

 

Tara

[Krista in LA]

I think to some degree people are upset that there is perceived nonchalance about the innocent collateral damage that is going to occur. I get that, but there is no way for it to be avoided.

 

I was thinking about this tonight and realized there is another dynamic going on. Many times in abusive families (lets say incest or molestation) when the victim comes forward, many members of their family will outright deny what happened or subtly blame the victim for causing the family shame. The victim did not cause their shame, but the family is not ready or willing to face the truth. Even when the perpetrator is charged and convicted the family may continue to blame the victim. "She should have handled this differently." Sometimes they do not blame the victim, but they cannot bring themselves to condemn the perpetrator. It is horrible and messy.

 

What happens when this occurs on a community level? A community is like a big family. Especially when it is focused around a unifying element. This community has been through hell, they thought it was wrapped up in the Sandusky trial and other college employees, but then their world publically exploded again with Freeh report (last week) then this week (which is really rapid in these terms) statues have been ripped down, wins rescinded, various other sanctions from the NCAA and "hits" to this community's (family's) unity.

 

I was with my dd at her track club practice tonight, which is held at a prestigious private school. They are doing their final practices before the Junior Olympics. As we were leaving the football team came out and one of the coaches came and made some small talk with me and my younger sons. I looked around and felt a wonderful sense of community and connectedness, but what if that was suddenly ripped away? What if I had years of investment in that community and it was tattered and ripped to shreds in such a public way? It would probably take me quite awhile to come to terms with things.

 

I would probably fight tooth and nail to try and hold it together. I would be frantic and desperate as I saw more and more of my community being pulled under the tide. I would not be ready to let go.

 

I think we are seeing that in the PSU community. They know they cannot blame the victims, but to accept the sanctions and Freeh report is a pill that may be to big to swallow all at once. They are going to need time to process this.

 

Like others I have been frustrated by some of the things I have read, but I have the luxury of distance. This isn't my community so I can look upon the facts without a lot of emotion, but if it was I guarantee you it would take me awhile to be able to accept ALL that had happened.

 

Maybe I am wrong. :D But, I wanted to share these observations.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:I think this is a great observation. I think you might need to add another layer to it though. I think Penn Staters have accepted the sexual abuse of the children by Sandusky and certainly nobody is blaming the victims. The second layer is that you have a man who outsiders view as being idolized by students and alumni, while in reality, he was looked up to as a role model not a deity. Let's think of it as someone who might be a role model in your (general) life like a parent or important person in the community, who has done so many good things and been a great mentor to many young people. You know this person is a good person and wish there were more people like him in the world. Now imagine that all of a sudden you are told he might have known about a child being sexually abused, and didn't do enough about it. How do you reconcile the man you know, who has done so much good, and you have viewed as a role model with the person that the media is telling you he is? You don't know it for a fact, and it doesn't fit with the man you know. That is what Penn Staters are going through and then they are being told they are just as bad for not hating everything that has to do with him or their school. They have to cling to each other because nobody else seems to understand....

[Juniper]

:iagree:I think this is a great observation. I think you might need to add another layer to it though. I think Penn Staters have accepted the sexual abuse of the children by Sandusky and certainly nobody is blaming the victims. The second layer is that you have a man who outsiders view as being idolized by students and alumni, while in reality, he was looked up to as a role model not a deity. Let's think of it as someone who might be a role model in your (general) life like a parent or important person in the community, who has done so many good things and been a great mentor to many young people. You know this person is a good person and wish there were more people like him in the world. Now imagine that all of a sudden you are told he might have known about a child being sexually abused, and didn't do enough about it. How do you reconcile the man you know, who has done so much good, and you have viewed as a role model with the person that the media is telling you he is? You don't know it for a fact, and it doesn't fit with the man you know. That is what Penn Staters are going through and they they are being told they are just as bad for not hating everything that has to do with him or their school. They have to cling to each other because nobody else seems to understand....

:grouphug: I get it. It has taken me awhile in this conversation, but I get it.

 

You see when I was the victim, dh's family could not reconcile what happened to me with what they knew of the perpetrator. Because they refused to believe dh and I, over what they had known, it almost destroyed our relationship.

 

It took a lot of counseling for me to understand how hard it can be for people to reconcile these things.

 

I don't think you are blaming the victims, but I think you are reeling. You may never have absolute proof that Joe did these things, but that is also not proof of innocence.

 

Give yourself time. What is done is done, what is happening is going to happen. All you can do is start to heal...yourself...and your community.

 

:grouphug: and best wishes.

[Haiku]

No one today discusses whether or not John Wilkes Booth was a quality actor.

 

Spot on. Joe Paterno will be remembered as the man who cared less about child sexual abuse than he did about reputation. And that's as it should be, as that's the legacy he chose.

 

And I also find it rather gross that people are still referring to the man by what was used as an endearing nickname.

 

Tara

[happypamama]

 

I don't think you are blaming the victims, but I think you are reeling. You may never have absolute proof that Joe did these things, but that is also not proof of innocence.

 

Give yourself time. What is done is done, what is happening is going to happen. All you can do is start to heal...yourself...and your community.

 

:grouphug: and best wishes.

 

We are definitely reeling. It's very hard to comprehend. Didn't know much about Sandusky, so we can accept his disgusting and appaling crimes because we weren't constantly being told/shown what a great guy he was. With Paterno, it's not even that he wasn't who everyone said he was; it's that it just doesn't add up. If he'd always been known as a sort of sleazy guy, it would be easier to comprehend. Even if he'd been found doing something more minor, like drunk driving, we'd be able to say, "well, nobody's perfect," but THIS? This is just SO HUGE and HORRIBLE and overshadowing. It just makes no sense to us, or at least to me. Evidence or not, it still just really does not jive yet; I think it will take time for it all to sink in.

 

I've had a ton of mixed emotions over the past several months, and I expect to have more. I'm very torn between being so angry that I never want to support another Penn State anything ever again and really wanting to support my alma mater in ushering in a new era in football, responsibility, everything, wanting to support the players who did nothing wrong, the students and faculty who did nothing wrong, the small businesses in the area that rely on sports traffic.

 

And for the PP who was wondering, yeah, Penn State is kind of a family for a lot of alums. The community spirit really is touted there, and it has its very good side (THON, networking, etc.), but obviously it has its dark side too. And as I've said before, Penn Staters do tend to do things big, for better or for worse. I don't think the close-knit atmosphere is necessarily unusual for a large school with a large alumni network. I've seen my ILs with similar feelings about their school, which is another large one with a prominent sports team.

[creekland]

After reading several pages of this thread, I am quite amazed by the "we are Penn State" attitude that a few of the alumni here have expressed.

 

I guess things are different for them than they are for me, because once I finished college (not at Penn State, BTW,) I never would have talked about university issues using the word, "we," because I didn't attend the school any more, and I can't imagine being so attached to my school that I felt I was always going to be a part of it. :confused::confused::confused:

 

 

I totally get the "We are." I went to Va Tech - another school with great school pride and both hubby and I are Hokies for life and proud of it. I love the community. I love that we can connect with other Hokies - even those who graduated decades apart from us. We really mourned when the school shooting happened and we got oodles of e-mails and calls from fellow classmates when that happened.

 

I definitely hope my boys get that same sense of belonging, community (and networking) at the schools they choose to attend. There's NO WAY I'd want them just to consider them "schools I attended."

 

BUT, even if Beamer (VT's coach) had done what Paterno did, I wouldn't support him any longer and I'd feel the sanctions were appropriate.

 

I live in PA now (and have for 16 years) where the Penn St culture is rampant and I agree with the sanctions. From my circle, whether or not people agree tends to split 50/50. I feel for those who are coming to grips with a monster/hypocrite (or monsters, but one who was idolized as great) in their family, but wishing it weren't true won't make it go away.

 

I still respect Penn St for their academics - esp Engineering. Most Engineers who are hired around here graduate from there. It will be a long time before I respect them again for their football.

 

 

I will never think of Paterno without hypocrite springing to mind right after. He said one thing and did another.

 

 

Same here. It's sad when heroes are found to be hollow. It happens way too often. But it happened again here.

 

I think the key idea that you're missing here is that people are too raw from the discovery of what happened to those kids to care in any way, shape, or form about anything that Joe Paterno was good at. He covered up child rape. To many people, that's all that matters, because child rape matters a whole helluva lot more than football.

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

No. He was not a great coach. A great coach serves as a moral example for young men and women. Joe Paterno was an absolute failure as a coach.

 

His teams may have won some games (victories that have now been vacated) but he destroyed the football program at Penn State, tarnished the school's reputation, removed a sense of pride from the athletes who played under him for all those years, and—worst of all—enabled child rape.

 

Not a good coach. Not a good man. "Joe Pa" (and the nickname makes me want to vomit in my mouth) was a criminal who rightly should have spent his last days in a prison cell. His death cheated justice in this case.

 

 

:iagree:

[Juniper]

We are definitely reeling. It's very hard to comprehend. Didn't know much about Sandusky, so we can accept his disgusting and appaling crimes because we weren't constantly being told/shown what a great guy he was. With Paterno, it's not even that he wasn't who everyone said he was; it's that it just doesn't add up. If he'd always been known as a sort of sleazy guy, it would be easier to comprehend. Even if he'd been found doing something more minor, like drunk driving, we'd be able to say, "well, nobody's perfect," but THIS? This is just SO HUGE and HORRIBLE and overshadowing. It just makes no sense to us, or at least to me. Evidence or not, it still just really does not jive yet; I think it will take time for it all to sink in.

 

I've had a ton of mixed emotions over the past several months, and I expect to have more. I'm very torn between being so angry that I never want to support another Penn State anything ever again and really wanting to support my alma mater in ushering in a new era in football, responsibility, everything, wanting to support the players who did nothing wrong, the students and faculty who did nothing wrong, the small businesses in the area that rely on sports traffic.

 

And for the PP who was wondering, yeah, Penn State is kind of a family for a lot of alums. The community spirit really is touted there, and it has its very good side (THON, networking, etc.), but obviously it has its dark side too. And as I've said before, Penn Staters do tend to do things big, for better or for worse. I don't think the close-knit atmosphere is necessarily unusual for a large school with a large alumni network. I've seen my ILs with similar feelings about their school, which is another large one with a prominent sports team.

 

I think the bolded is completely normal given the circumstances. :grouphug:

 

It is going to take time. I will say this: The general "you" public may never be able to look back and say, "Oh, there was a sign here.....or there." It really depends on how good people were at hiding things. But the people who were close to Paterno (but are not family) will probably be able to say, "Okay, in hindsight, I see how that could have happened." or, "I thought that was off, but you know, he's JoePa, I just didn't give it a second thought."

 

When I went through this I thought about it this way: Imagine your life is a beautiful dining table set with stunning crystal goblets, serving dishes, vases, and china. All of sudden someone comes up and grabs the beautiful table cloth, rips it to shreds and dashes everything to the floor. All you see around you is brokenness and destruction. On top of that you have no privacy to grieve your loss. A crowd has gathered to point fingers and murmer at your loss. You know you are mad at those responsible for ripping the table cloth, but for the moment you are hyper focused on the shattered pieces laying around you. You want to turn and drive away all those who are standing and gawking at your loss.

 

Time will go on though, and as it does, you will see that not all is lost. Some things are going to need to be repaired and helped towards wholeness (identity, local businesses) something really were not damaged at all, they were just buried under the debris. People will come alongside and help you repair and others will come and replace what was lost.

 

Eventually, it will be more beautiful than it was before, because it will not be hollow on the inside and it will be stronger because it's foundation will be relaid with deep humility and character.

 

Give yourself time to grieve and cycle.

 

The people looking from afar are not bad people, in fact they are feeling their own emotions from a very different perspective. The same time you are needing to process, they need to process in a different way.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Take care of yourselves!

Edited July 25, 2012 by Juniper

[happypamama]

I think the bolded is completely normal given the circumstances. :grouphug:

 

It is going to take time. I will say this: The general "you" public may never be able to look back and say, "Oh, there was a sign here.....or there." It really depends on how good people were at hiding things. But the people who were close to Paterno (but are not family) will probably be able to say, "Okay, in hindsight, I see how that could have happened." or, "I thought that was off, but you know, he's JoePa, I just didn't give it a second thought."

 

When I went through this I thought about it this way: Imagine your life is a beautiful dining table set with stunning crystal goblets, serving dishes, vases, and china. All of sudden someone comes up and grabs the beautiful table cloth, rips it to shreds and dashes everything to the floor. All you see around you is brokenness and destruction. On top of that you have no privacy to grieve your loss. A crowd has gathered to point fingers and murmer at your loss. You know you are mad at those responsible for ripping the table cloth, but for the moment you are hyper focused on the shattered pieces laying around you. You want to turn and drive away all those who are standing and gawking at your loss.

 

Time will go on though, and as it does, you will see that not all is lost. Some things are going to need to be repaired and helped towards wholeness (identity, local businesses) something really were not damaged at all, they were just buried under the debris. People will come alongside and help you repair and others will come and replace what was lost.

 

Eventually, it will be more beautiful than it was before, because it will not be hollow on the inside and it will be stronger because it's foundation will be relaid with deep humility and character.

 

Give yourself time to grieve and cycle.

 

The people looking from afar are not bad people, in fact they are feeling their own emotions from a very different perspective. The same time you are needing to process, they need to process in a different way.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Take care of yourselves!

 

Thank you -- it is so nice to hear from people who are gentle to the Penn State family. No, we're not the true victims, but we're dealing with the fallout as best as we can, and gentleness helps.

 

I am so sorry you have had personal experience in this area. Thank you for reaching out. :) :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: