Penn State and the Clery Act

[Katy]

I started a petition to demand the US Department of Education withdraw federal funding to Penn State. The report that came out today indicates the university president knew about the abuse and did nothing for years. The Clery Act exists to withdraw federal funding from an institution that covers up crimes. I want to set the precedent that temporarily protecting your reputation while continuing to put children at risk will always have serious consequences.

 

I know this will also have consequences for innocent university employees and students, but I think in this case the precedent is more important than the fallout.

 

If you agree with me, please sign my petition and share it with others (facebook, email, twitter, anything). For a petition like this to work, it has to go viral.

 

Here's the petition:

https://www.change.org/petitions/the-u-s-department-of-education-withdraw-all-fe...

 

Article about how the Clery Act applies:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/department-education-could-bigge...

 

 

 

 

 

[Katy]

Is this too political?

[brownie]

I'm sorry but I don't see why that is a deterrent. The president already had his career ruined. Such a law impacts the innocent employees and students and has absolutely no impact on those involved. If seeing the consequences doesn't make other university employees think twice about covering up something like this, I don't think a law that punishes the innocent will do anything.

[Katy]

I'm sorry but I don't see why that is a deterrent. The president already had his career ruined. Such a law impacts the innocent employees and students and has absolutely no impact on those involved. If seeing the consequences doesn't make other university employees think twice about covering up something like this, I don't think a law that punishes the innocent will do anything.

 

It's fine to disagree with me. I think enforcing the existing law will scare other institutions into not taking the risk, which is why I support it. It's the reason the law was written. I do respect you for not thinking the consequences are worth it though. There are a lot of laws that I don't like the unintended consequences of.

[NittanyJen]

The people involved are going to face prosecution (I do not see how Spanier can avoid charges at this point) or are dead, and quite likely multiple civil suits.

 

Nothing will help the victims from doing this proposal. The University needs to step up and proactively address the admin failures noted in the Freeh report, and do something globally for abuse victims. That would demonstrate some compassion and awareness for child abuse throughout the Penn State community, a community already well-known for its activism on behalf of kids and energy in lending a hand through action (THON, Special Olympics, 4-H camps, and more). Supporting healing actions, and holding those actually responsible accountable will help.

 

Students who earned athletic scholarships to help pay for college will lose them, under that proposal, and many may have to leave college, for actions taken by people before these even enrolled. Alumni visits would decrease, as like it or not, football weekends are a huge draw (as is arts festival and other activities, but nothing like football). Donors likely increase donations to all sources including libraries and general scholarships, science buildings, and more after visiting campus. Killing all this off would harm generations of students dependent upon scholarships, facilities, alumni mentoring, and other resources. Further, it could unintentionally create, instead of increased awareness and compassion for the victims, a subtle resentment toward them, however unjust, as people who had nothing to do with the problem are punished across all parts of the Penn State community. Services to farmers across the state have already been cut as the U attempts to figure out where o cut costs.

 

Even the Freeh report noted that a subset of the problems included rash actions by the Board of Trustees last November. I cannot support repeating that mistake (the report is only a few hours old, and already a request to make a request to harm many innocent people, including very likely the victims, 'go viral'-- that is rash).

 

Prosecutors are already at work to determine whether the Clery Act was violated. The law, and not "popular opinion" ought to prevail, yes? The NCAA is watching the situation and PSU's response closely for institutional control issues. Again, that is not to be governed by a petition or popular opinion, unless you also wish to dispense with our court systems, too, and simply resume the Salem Witch Trials every time someone feels emotional over an issue?

 

I beg people. Please think very carefully before jumping upon this particular bandwagon.

 

I would urge people to focus on actions which are positive, will actually help and not hinder the victims, and dare I say it, focus on the victims and not on the athletic program.

 

I think it is high time people started focusing on the kids. As a proud PSU alum, trust me, Penn State now knows what it needs to do. This incident is horrifically embarrassing, not with a focus on us, but because we traditionally help, not harm. It has been a terrible blow to read some of the things in this Freeh Report, but I have every confidence that the response will be appropriate.

 

Let the legal system do its work, and pour your obvious energy into something positive instead.

[jennynd]

U are punish the kids, not the school by doing this. As much as I disgusted by what happened. The students there are innocent

[Katy]

I'm not trying to start a heated fight. If you disagree that's fine. I think that somewhere right now there is probably more than one administration board facing similar issues and they are watching this closely, and I want the existing law to be enforced.

 

The NCAA is going to stop some aspect of the athletics program (if not all) at the school and therefore limit scholarships already. They haven't decided what yet, but the students are already being harmed by this. By going to a school that has lost its reputation if nothing else.

 

I think that the idea that the consequences of enforcing the law are worse than the more than 20-year cover up and silent santion of the continuing abuse have already more harm to the students and faculty of Penn State than my little petition ever could.

[NittanyJen]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

The institution has been around since before our grandparents were born, and it will continue long after we are gone. It has a reputation for academic excellence, student activism, alumni involvement, community relations (no other student run organization earns close to the annual amount THON raises for childhood cancer, funds which are well managed) and other services.

 

The dreadful choices of a group of individuals have changed none of this, and never will. Joe Paterno himself, before his death, acknowledged, too late, that he wished he had done more, and asked everyone to please focus on the victims, and directed his family to cooperate fully with any investigation.

 

I actually can appreciate where you are coming from, I think. I believe I understand your point to be that we have a law on the books, and it ought to be enforced. You seem to believe that this action will ensure compliance from other institutions.

 

I do not believe I am engaging in a 'heated debate;' I am disagreeing with your point of view and feel that it will not only fail to accomplish your goal, but also cause collateral harm. (You do not need to have an argument in order to make an argument). I feel strongly that the greater good will come from now following the guidance of the Freeh report and taking proactive steps to ensure these or similar events can never happen again. Other institutions can then model what we successfully implement or see how we struggle and recover and use the recommendations themselves. Much good can come from this. Alumni have already strongly spoken, with the strongest ever showing in a balloting, removing incumbent trustees and inserting new blood, making a statement that failing to supervise was unacceptable. We organized ourselves across the globe and acted during a time of great turmoil to do this, showing that the PSU community is a strong and responsive one, committed to correct action.

 

You posted your request, and I followed up with my simple request. Think before reacting, get all of the facts first, focus on the victims and actions that will help, not harm them, including future victims. Focus on positive actions rather than negative actions that will likely have negligible effect to anyone but the innocent. If making an example of someone served as an effective deterrent, we would not have an overflowing prison system today, now would we?

 

I do not fault your motives one iota. I think you have the best of intentions.

[Joker]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

 

:001_huh: I don't get the bolded. Their reputation should be tarnished. Men in authority put their school's (and sports) reputation above all else, including young boys being raped. I don't fault others for wanting to make an example out of Penn State and trying to ensure this kind of cover up will never happen again.

[Catwoman]

I'm not trying to start a heated fight. If you disagree that's fine.

 

When you started this thread, you had to realize that it was going to cause some controversy. This issue certainly isn't something everyone will agree upon. Some people will sign your petition, and others will think it's a bad idea, and if you post here about it, I don't think you should be surprised when people voice opinions contrary to yours.

 

I didn't view any of the posts as "trying to start a heated fight."

[NittanyJen]

:001_huh: I don't get the bolded. Their reputation should be tarnished. Men in authority put their school's (and sports) reputation above all else, including young boys being raped. I don't fault others for wanting to make an example out of Penn State and trying to ensure this kind of cover up will never happen again.

 

Read the paragraph following what you quoted. It is fairly self-explanatory.

 

Penn State's place as a leader in academics, community service, student activism, and other areas remains unchanged. The rest we are dealing with, up-front, openly, and publicly. Penn State commissioned the Freeh Report in the first place, to begin the needed corrective actions, and the university-related individuals who failed these kids were promptly removed. More work, far more, remains to be done, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

The actions of a handful of people do not override the contributions of thousands. The fact that the entire university, from alumni inward have already taken pro-active steps to respond demonstrates that there is far more good there than evil.

 

Anyone who hamstrings something with the power for good of Penn State has really missed an opportunity (Google THON).

[Joker]

Read the paragraph following what you quoted. It is fairly self-explanatory.

 

Penn State's place as a leader in academics, community service, student activism, and other areas remains unchanged. The rest we are dealing with, up-front, openly, and publicly. Penn State commissioned the Freeh Report in the first place, to begin the needed corrective actions, and the university-related individuals who failed these kids were promptly removed. More work, far more, remains to be done, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

The actions of a handful of people do not override the contributions of thousands. The fact that the entire university, from alumni inward have already taken pro-active steps to respond demonstrates that there is far more good there than evil.

 

Anyone who hamstrings something with the power for good of Penn State has really missed an opportunity (Google THON).

 

I get what you're saying, but the powers that be were able to cover up something horrendous. It really doesn't matter what the university was doing whilst that was going on. It did happen and it was even allowed to continue~for years. This investigation let everyone know that the people in control of the sports arena were able to control the rest. There were riots, and you were here on this forum taking up for Paterno. Many don't want to acknowledge what happened and wish it would all just go away. They have only taken forward steps because of what has come to light. How much further might they go if even more action is taken? How much further might other colleges go if Penn State is made an example of?

 

I don't want innocent students and faculty to suffer, but they are now part of an institution that allowed something horrible to take place. There should be consequences.

[NittanyJen]

Actually, what I said back then was to please wait until the facts are known-- treat Paterno as you would wish to be treated.

 

I disagree with your statement. The academics, millions raised for childhood cancer, Special Olympics, assistance to farmers, the children's hospital, all matter very much and have not ceased to do so.

 

It is not insignificant that the university commissioned the Freeh Report, not an outside agency. The alumni voted out the incompetent trustees, and nobody made us do that, either.

 

I have never denied (I have repeatedly stated) that what happened is horrifying. I find it curious that so many want to punish more innocent people instead of focusing on the guilty, and not even talk about how to help the victims. As I said in my original postings here, I am greatly concerned that punishing the innocent at Penn State and tiresomely blaming them for things done by those already removed from the university will engender, however unfairly, resentment for those who most need our compassion.

 

Penn State is more than the actions of the misguided handful who failed to act and the one former coach who actually carried out the crimes.

 

Heading' off to sleep now. This actually is an issue worth losing sleep over, but I'm getting pretty drowsy ;)

[Joker]

I'm heading to bed as well, but I wish more cared about those innocent people you speak of years ago.

 

I also don't think that the good the university has done before, during, and after the abuse was going on should have any impact on what happens now.

 

I don't wish to punish anyone or any entity, but I do think those people and entities should have to face the consequences of their actions.

[Mimm]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

The institution has been around since before our grandparents were born, and it will continue long after we are gone. It has a reputation for academic excellence, student activism, alumni involvement, community relations (no other student run organization earns close to the annual amount THON raises for childhood cancer, funds which are well managed) and other services.

 

 

The evil that you do can eclipse the good that you do in the mind of the public. Of course Penn State's reputation has been harmed by this.

[Katy]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

...

 

The dreadful choices of a group of individuals have changed none of this, and never will.

 

...

 

I believe I understand your point to be that we have a law on the books, and it ought to be enforced. You seem to believe that this action will ensure compliance from other institutions.

 

...

 

Focus on positive actions rather than negative actions that will likely have negligible effect to anyone but the innocent. If making an example of someone served as an effective deterrent, we would not have an overflowing prison system today, now would we?

 

 

 

Well we obviously strongly disagree on two points:

 

 

1. I think Penn State's reputation has been harmed. If an institution will overlook such abuse and condone it by allowing it to continue, everything else they have done comes into question. If they will trade the well being of many children for the sake of their reputation, what else have they done? It's sort of like if you find out a cop is "dirty" it is grounds to look at every case they have ever touched.
   
2. I think enforcing laws is a deterrent and can create culture change, much the way enforcing the laws of sexual harassment cases in the 1990's changed acceptable workplace culture to this day. The overflowing prison system is due to other cultural factors (such as the war on drugs) that are off topic.
   

[Rivka]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

I understand how much you want this to be true, but I don't think it is.

[jennynd]

reputation certainly get hurt as a school. But the reputation for the quality of student who graduated from there. It is not hurt. Though I am not graduated from there. I will hire a kid graduated from penn state over most of the school around the general area any day

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

 

1. I think Penn State's reputation has been harmed. If an institution will overlook such abuse and condone it by allowing it to continue, everything else they have done comes into question. If they will trade the well being of many children for the sake of their reputation, what else have they done? It's sort of like if you find out a cop is "dirty" it is grounds to look at every case they have ever touched.
   

:iagree:

[Kathryn]

I understand how much you want this to be true, but I don't think it is.

 

:iagree: Their reputation most certainly was harmed.

[MariannNOVA]

 

 

1. I think Penn State's reputation has been harmed. If an institution will overlook such abuse and condone it by allowing it to continue, everything else they have done comes into question. If they will trade the well being of many children for the sake of their reputation, what else have they done? It's sort of like if you find out a cop is "dirty" it is grounds to look at every case they have ever touched.

 

 

I agree.

[Home'scool]

This was the best quote on what should be the bottom line for this situation (emphasis mine):

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong, as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

THIS is why the football program should be shut down. Period.

[Supertechmom]

This was the best quote on what should be the bottom line for this situation (emphasis mine):

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong' date=' as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. [u']But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. [/u]If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

THIS is why the football program should be shut down. Period.

 

:iagree: and given the riots on campus when Paterno was fired. ... the attitude carries across. A message drastic and severe and world shattering needs to be sent not just to the officials but to the whole entire community. Preserving your football program and reputation while children were raped in the locker rooms will never be acceptable. And no amount of "do good" will change that or override the wrong. Yes, many innocents unaware of the wrong doing will be hurt. But when the school, many officials, student rumors, the DA, the police and even the local schools turned their back......Penn State needs severe punishment as a whole. And perhaps the message will come out for the innocent to be more aware of their surroundings and not stand on the side of wrongdoers even if that support is simply silence or ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Katy]

:iagree: and given the riots on campus when Paterno was fired. ... the attitude carries across. A message drastic and severe and world shattering needs to be sent not just to the officials but to the whole entire community. Preserving your football program and reputation while children were raped in the locker rooms will never be acceptable. And no amount of "do good" will change that or override the wrong. Yes, many innocents unaware of the wrong doing will be hurt. But when the school, many officials, student rumors, the DA, the police and even the local schools turned their back......Penn State needs severe punishment as a whole. And perhaps the message will come out for the innocent to be more aware of their surroundings and not stand on the side of wrongdoers even if that support is simply silence or ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

:iagree: hence, the petition.

[Riverland]

With all due respect, and I do indeed respect your right to your thoughts and opinions, Penn State's reputation is unharmed.

 

 

Really??? Reputation unharmed???

 

 

 

 

1. I think Penn State's reputation has been harmed. If an institution will overlook such abuse and condone it by allowing it to continue, everything else they have done comes into question. If they will trade the well being of many children for the sake of their reputation, what else have they done? It's sort of like if you find out a cop is "dirty" it is grounds to look at every case they have ever touched.
   

 

:iagree:

 

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong' date=' as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. [u']But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. [/u]If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

 

:iagree:

[Another Lynn]

This was the best quote on what should be the bottom line for this situation (emphasis mine):

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong' date=' as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. [u']But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. [/u]If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

THIS is why the football program should be shut down. Period.

 

:iagree: and given the riots on campus when Paterno was fired. ... the attitude carries across. A message drastic and severe and world shattering needs to be sent not just to the officials but to the whole entire community. Preserving your football program and reputation while children were raped in the locker rooms will never be acceptable. And no amount of "do good" will change that or override the wrong. Yes, many innocents unaware of the wrong doing will be hurt. But when the school, many officials, student rumors, the DA, the police and even the local schools turned their back......Penn State needs severe punishment as a whole. And perhaps the message will come out for the innocent to be more aware of their surroundings and not stand on the side of wrongdoers even if that support is simply silence or ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

:iagree: Well said!

[sparrow]

The talk in our area (a school that is blue and a school that is green) is that Penn State, if they even continue the football program, may very well be kicked out of the Big 10.

 

I can't possibly disagree more that Penn State's reputation in unharmed. The complete breakdown in reporting something this reprehensible goes way beyond the athletic department. Simply stated, Penn State is not a school I would consider sending my child and my money to.

[Home'scool]

I am shocked at some of the things people are posting on other message boards.

 

One person actually wrote "I will always love JoePa and Penn State, scandal or no scandal"

 

Really? So even when the scandal showed he aided and abetted a pedophile? You still love the guy?

 

I can NOT believe the pass people are willing to give Joe Paterno and the administration all in the name of "We are Penn State"

[brownie]

Institutions do not take risks - Individuals do. The individuals involved need to be punished, not the institution.

 

I'm a Penn State Alum. I am saddened by this and yes, the school's reputation has been harmed. However, it doesn't change the fact that I had a great experience there, and I did great work with some of those organizations like second mile while I was there. I love my school but I'm embarrassed by it as well.

 

Brownie

[kalanamak]

Really??? Reputation unharmed???

 

 

 

The US memory is very short.

 

Football is king. And winning isn't the most important thing, it is the only thing.

 

Reputation has to do with a collective opinion, not the extent of the passion felt by the die-hard supporters nor the angry-right-nows. Penn State's reputation* has not been dimmed in my eyes. I realize I am only one of a few hundred million people. :)

 

*I never had a good opinion of college football, but I do see the engineering department, e.g., as something different than the big sports.

Regarding football: 1) I got to see the riotous, damaging, drunken celebrations in my hometown when I was growing up, as well as what could have been dignified people painting their beards, vans, driveways, and houses a hideous purple, and 2) a felon-in-the-making I went to public school for was caught in a "train", but since he was going off to be a football star, everyone else got convicted and he (easily the nastiest of the bunch) went to college. He lost his scholarship, eventually, over rape. So .... my opinion of college football is so low, there is no reputation to tarnish.

[RanchGirl]

This was the best quote on what should be the bottom line for this situation (emphasis mine):

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong' date=' as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. [u']But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. [/u]If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

THIS is why the football program should be shut down. Period.

 

:iagree: and given the riots on campus when Paterno was fired. ... the attitude carries across. A message drastic and severe and world shattering needs to be sent not just to the officials but to the whole entire community. Preserving your football program and reputation while children were raped in the locker rooms will never be acceptable. And no amount of "do good" will change that or override the wrong. Yes, many innocents unaware of the wrong doing will be hurt. But when the school, many officials, student rumors, the DA, the police and even the local schools turned their back......Penn State needs severe punishment as a whole. And perhaps the message will come out for the innocent to be more aware of their surroundings and not stand on the side of wrongdoers even if that support is simply silence or ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

The complete breakdown in reporting something this reprehensible goes way beyond the athletic department. Simply stated, Penn State is not a school I would consider sending my child and my money to.

 

I completely agree. These crimes were so horrific, and the cover up so widespread over such a long time period -- there is something truly evil there. No amount of good they do in other areas can ever make up for what they have done to those children.

[Audrey]

I agree with you. I think the idolatry given to sports at the high school and college level is disgusting to begin with, and that idolatry has borne its natural fruits at Penn State, and likely many other schools as well. I think it only appropriate to punish the whole rotten institution, and frankly, I don’t think that shutting down the whole place for good would be going too far either. It was a systemic cover up of multiple child rapes. The whole system should pay. And, even that isn't good enough, AFAIC.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I agree with you. I think the idolatry given to sports at the high school and college level is disgusting to begin with, and that idolatry has borne its natural fruits at Penn State, and likely many other schools as well. I think it only appropriate to punish the whole rotten institution, and frankly, I don’t think that shutting down the whole place for good would be going too far either. It was a systemic cover up of multiple child rapes. The whole system should pay. And, even that isn't good enough, AFAIC.

 

To what end though?

 

Let's say the DOE goes draconian and ends federal student aid to PSU. Students in school nearing the end of their degree will be seriously affected, and could in theory end up with unaccredited degrees/needing to transfer/etc..

What did they do wrong, and why should they suffer that level of punishment?

Even if the sanctions are aimed only at athletics...to what end? Would forcing numerous student athletes to transfer (or lose their scholarships) at the end of their careers accomplish anything?

A shotgun attack aimed at those who did not know, and never were in a position to know, about these events would simply be an effort t punish "someone", but no justice would come of it.

 

Spanier, Curley, and Schultz should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, including any federal charges that may apply. PSU will also have to pay significant restitution/compensation to the victims, which will impact the university but is a reasonable response to the actions of its leadership. Anything beyond that is simply vindictive and doesn't punish the guilty.

[TXBeth]

To what end though?

 

Let's say the DOE goes draconian and ends federal student aid to PSU. Students in school nearing the end of their degree will be seriously affected, and could in theory end up with unaccredited degrees/needing to transfer/etc..

What did they do wrong, and why should they suffer that level of punishment?

Even if the sanctions are aimed only at athletics...to what end? Would forcing numerous student athletes to transfer (or lose their scholarships) at the end of their careers accomplish anything?

A shotgun attack aimed at those who did not know, and never were in a position to know, about these events would simply be an effort t punish "someone", but no justice would come of it.

 

Spanier, Curley, and Schultz should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, including any federal charges that may apply. PSU will also have to pay significant restitution/compensation to the victims, which will impact the university but is a reasonable response to the actions of its leadership. Anything beyond that is simply vindictive and doesn't punish the guilty.

 

To this end.

 

This was the best quote on what should be the bottom line for this situation (emphasis mine):

 

"Shuttering Beaver Stadium for two years would take Penn State football down a peg. It would also punish loads of hard-working athletes who have done nothing wrong' date=' as well as all the fans who live and die with the Nittany Lions. [u']But that will be a far better result than the alternative—allowing a pedophile-sheltering athletic department that was bent on self-preservation to succeed in having itself preserved. [/u]If Penn State football carries on this fall with a new coach and those old white-and-blue uniforms, then the worldviews of Curley and Schultz and Spanier and Paterno will prevail. Though all four men lost their jobs, their mission to protect Penn State football at all costs will win out in the end."

 

THIS is why the football program should be shut down. Period.

 

It's very simple. The cover up happened In order to protect the football program. Therefore, the football program MUST be shut down. Otherwise, those who turned a blind eye will have accomplished their goal.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The people involved are going to face prosecution (I do not see how Spanier can avoid charges at this point) or are dead, and quite likely multiple civil suits.

 

Nothing will help the victims from doing this proposal. The University needs to step up and proactively address the admin failures noted in the Freeh report, and do something globally for abuse victims. That would demonstrate some compassion and awareness for child abuse throughout the Penn State community, a community already well-known for its activism on behalf of kids and energy in lending a hand through action (THON, Special Olympics, 4-H camps, and more). Supporting healing actions, and holding those actually responsible accountable will help.

 

Students who earned athletic scholarships to help pay for college will lose them, under that proposal, and many may have to leave college, for actions taken by people before these even enrolled. Alumni visits would decrease, as like it or not, football weekends are a huge draw (as is arts festival and other activities, but nothing like football). Donors likely increase donations to all sources including libraries and general scholarships, science buildings, and more after visiting campus. Killing all this off would harm generations of students dependent upon scholarships, facilities, alumni mentoring, and other resources. Further, it could unintentionally create, instead of increased awareness and compassion for the victims, a subtle resentment toward them, however unjust, as people who had nothing to do with the problem are punished across all parts of the Penn State community. Services to farmers across the state have already been cut as the U attempts to figure out where o cut costs.

 

Even the Freeh report noted that a subset of the problems included rash actions by the Board of Trustees last November. I cannot support repeating that mistake (the report is only a few hours old, and already a request to make a request to harm many innocent people, including very likely the victims, 'go viral'-- that is rash).

 

Prosecutors are already at work to determine whether the Clery Act was violated. The law, and not "popular opinion" ought to prevail, yes? The NCAA is watching the situation and PSU's response closely for institutional control issues. Again, that is not to be governed by a petition or popular opinion, unless you also wish to dispense with our court systems, too, and simply resume the Salem Witch Trials every time someone feels emotional over an issue?

 

I beg people. Please think very carefully before jumping upon this particular bandwagon.

 

I would urge people to focus on actions which are positive, will actually help and not hinder the victims, and dare I say it, focus on the victims and not on the athletic program.

 

I think it is high time people started focusing on the kids. As a proud PSU alum, trust me, Penn State now knows what it needs to do. This incident is horrifically embarrassing, not with a focus on us, but because we traditionally help, not harm. It has been a terrible blow to read some of the things in this Freeh Report, but I have every confidence that the response will be appropriate.

 

Let the legal system do its work, and pour your obvious energy into something positive instead.

 

:iagree:I think we should punish the few bad apples and not the whole class.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I agree with you. I think the idolatry given to sports at the high school and college level is disgusting to begin with, and that idolatry has borne its natural fruits at Penn State, and likely many other schools as well. I think it only appropriate to punish the whole rotten institution, and frankly, I don’t think that shutting down the whole place for good would be going too far either. It was a systemic cover up of multiple child rapes. The whole system should pay. And, even that isn't good enough, AFAIC.

 

I do not care for all of the fanaticism surrounding football as well but there are many good people at Penn State. I do not see the point in punishing the whole class for a few bad apples which seems very unfair to me. Closing the school would hurt a lot of innocent people. I would rather see those who are guilty punished and the system changed so that this does not happen again.

[Mimm]

 

It's very simple. The cover up happened In order to protect the football program. Therefore, the football program MUST be shut down. Otherwise, those who turned a blind eye will have accomplished their goal.

 

:iagree: I think it should be shut down. Permanently. Penn State has showed it's priorities and they never ever deserve to have a football team again. If they did, who knows what they would let happen. If they were willing to cover up some of the worst crimes you can possibly commit- the rape of children- then they're willing to do anything for their football program and people like that should not get to have football programs. Sorry for the students and athletes and all but their fate is not worse than what those little boys suffered in that locker room.

[Mimm]

I do not care for all of the fanaticism surrounding football as well but there are many good people at Penn State. I do not see the point in punishing the whole class for a few bad apples which seems very unfair to me. Closing the school would hurt a lot of innocent people. I would rather see those who are guilty punished and the system changed so that this does not happen again.

 

People are acting like students at Penn State have no other options. I'm pretty sure if they were able to get into Penn State, they'll manage to get into other schools. These aren't poor impoverished children with no options in life, but adults with presumably very nice academic records, some money, and in some cases, the ability to play football very well.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

People are acting like students at Penn State have no other options. I'm pretty sure if they were able to get into Penn State, they'll manage to get into other schools. These aren't poor impoverished children with no options in life, but adults with presumably very nice academic records, some money, and in some cases, the ability to play football very well.

 

I don't believe you are familiar with the financial background of many D1 football players.

Shutting down the football program would also have a ripple effect on the other athletic programs and athletes.

[Home'scool]

If you don't believe that Penn State should get the Death Penalty, then when is that punishment acceptable?

 

In the past, the Death Penalty to a football program has been given out for much, much less serious issues. I can live with giving someone money to a player or paying for tatoos a lot better than allowing a pedophile to continue to harm children. Football players, marching band players, coaches, fans, alumni, surrounding towns --- they all had to adapt.

 

If not now, then WHEN? What situation could be more serious than this??

 

Sanctions are there for a reason. Use them. Otherwise for everyone that gets caught we should take into consideration how the punishment will affect those around them.

 

Perhaps Bernie Madoff should not have gone to prison because there were so many innocent people who worked at his company who didn't know and had nothing to do with the Ponzi scheme. Maybe we shouldn't have prosecuted those ENRON guys so that their businesses could have continued to employ people.

 

Ted Bundy worked on a rape crisis hot line. I didn't hear anyone saying that he was a guy that should be judged on all his achievements and not just his mistakes.

 

Don't give me "Penn State now knows what to do." That is bull. The football program is only sorry it got caught.

[Mimm]

I don't believe you are familiar with the financial background of many D1 football players.

Shutting down the football program would also have a ripple effect on the other athletic programs and athletes.

 

Ok, I should have said that some Penn State students have money and some have the ability to throw a football. :) My point is that I think that in most cases, they would probably be ok.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If you don't believe that Penn State should get the Death Penalty' date=' then when is that punishment acceptable?

 

In the past, the Death Penalty to a football program has been given out for much, much less serious issues. I can live with giving someone money to a player or paying for tatoos a lot better than allowing a pedophile to continue to harm children. Football players, marching band players, coaches, fans, alumni, surrounding towns --- they all had to adapt. [/quote']

 

Let's clarify a bit. The NCAA "Death Penalty" has only been applied one time in football (SMU in the 80s). If you read the NCAA rules, you will see that PSU technically is not eligible for that punishment as it is specifically aimed at repeat violators. Comments from NCAA officials in recent years have indicated that they feel the penalty is too harsh, and it is unlikely to be issued again. If a school takes corrective actions against the violators, sanctions will not be that extreme. SMU did not take action against those breaking the rules in their case, which is why the hammer was brought down.

Wikipedia has a nice summary, and gives a mention about the Baylor Bears Basketball issue and why the avoided harsher sanctions in 2005 although their violations were close to the SMU level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_%28NCAA%29

 

If not now, then WHEN? What situation could be more serious than this??

 

Sanctions are there for a reason. Use them. Otherwise for everyone that gets caught we should take into consideration how the punishment will affect those around them.

 

Perhaps Bernie Madoff should not have gone to prison because there were so many innocent people who worked at his company who didn't know and had nothing to do with the Ponzi scheme. Maybe we shouldn't have prosecuted those ENRON guys so that their businesses could have continued to employ people.

 

Ted Bundy worked on a rape crisis hot line. I didn't hear anyone saying that he was a guy that should be judged on all his achievements and not just his mistakes.

 

Don't give me "Penn State now knows what to do." That is bull. The football program is only sorry it got caught.

 

Now see, you are throwing out some very false arguments. Has anyone said the guilty parties should not be punished for their crimes? Spanier, Schultz, and Curley should all face the full force of the law, and I believe they will. PSU will also have to pay significant financial penalties, as they should.

The "football program" did not do this. Some (at best) morally challenged people in leadership positions made some terrible choices, broke the law, and will be punished. The players, fans, alumni, and local business owners did not participate in or know about these crimes.

The financial penalties to PSU will likely be massive, so the school and athletic programs will be paying a penalty. Shutting them down accomplishes nothing but hurting many innocent parties.

 

I feel the same about sanctions from the DOE. A junior in engineering who has worked hard towards their degree could potentially suffer penalties because of what a morally challenged university president did. Does that seem fair?

 

Justice is punishing the guilty and providing restitution to those who were harmed. Going to extremes to make a point accomplishes nothing.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok, I should have said that some Penn State students have money and some have the ability to throw a football. :) My point is that I think that in most cases, they would probably be ok.

 

Why do you think a junior at PSU "has money"? Forcing students to transfer at that time would likely cause them to lose credits and spend more time in school. For what? What did they or the faculty who would lose jobs do wrong?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

People are acting like students at Penn State have no other options. I'm pretty sure if they were able to get into Penn State, they'll manage to get into other schools. These aren't poor impoverished children with no options in life, but adults with presumably very nice academic records, some money, and in some cases, the ability to play football very well.

 

Actually, often other colleges will not accept other college's course work for credit. I also would not assume that every student there has other options or lots of money. College is very, very expensive these days. Closing the school would hurt a lot of innocent students and employees.

 

I certainly am extremely appalled that this Sandusky thing happened and hope to see all guilty people punished. I also hope to see school policies changed to prevent this from happening again. OTOH there are about 95,000 students and 8,800 employees of Penn State. I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of these people are guilty in this crime. Should the Catholic Church be shut down as well?

 

I also detest college football and the partying scene. I get that students were rallying for Paterno but I would think it must have been hard for many to come to grips that Paterno was involved in this crime since he was revered by many in the past. Honestly, I do not think this makes those students bad.

[Just Kate]

Why do you think a junior at PSU "has money"? Forcing students to transfer at that time would likely cause them to lose credits and spend more time in school. For what? What did they or the faculty who would lose jobs do wrong?

 

But isn't this the point? When people in power make poor (VERY poor) decisions, others around them get hurt. As we have all learned as adults, there are consequences when we do the wrong thing. I think it will be a very sad day if there are no real consequences to the bad decisions made.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But isn't this the point? When people in power make poor (VERY poor) decisions, others around them get hurt. As we have all learned as adults, there are consequences when we do the wrong thing. I think it will be a very sad day if there are no real consequences to the bad decisions made.

 

Jail time and civil judgements are consequences.

Why should we now go out of our way to hurt students and faculty? Exactly what point point is being made? How are we achieving justice? How does shutting down an athletic department and disrupting the lives of thousands of people help the victims?

Spanier and company KNEW what they were doing at the time was wrong. Any normal person would. They simply thought they could ignore it/hide it/hope it went away. What they did was reprehensible, and likely criminal, and they should feel the full weight of the law. I just don't see what else would be gained from punishing others to "make a point".

[Just Kate]

Jail time and civil judgements are consequences.

Why should we now go out of our way to hurt students and faculty? Exactly what point point is being made? How are we achieving justice? How does shutting down an athletic department and disrupting the lives of thousands of people help the victims?

Spanier and company KNEW what they were doing at the time was wrong. Any normal person would. They simply thought they could ignore it/hide it/hope it went away. What they did was reprehensible, and likely criminal, and they should feel the full weight of the law. I just don't see what else would be gained from punishing others to "make a point".

 

I guess I don't see it as "making a point". Instead, I think that when a person has a position of power (any position), then the decisions that he/she makes affects those who are under him. For instance, I have a position of power within my family (I am my children's mother). If I make a very bad financial decision one of the consequences will be that my decision may harm my children (maybe they will not get a very big Christmas this year or they will have to change their eating habits somewhat). That is a natural consequence. While I think it is very sad what might happen to the faculty/students at Penn State, I guess I just think it is a natural consequence to some very bad decision making. Maybe this will be a lesson to others out there who are in the same positions of power.

[Supertechmom]

I think the message should be sent because everyone there at school and the community participated in the atmosphere that allowed the crimes to take place. I live in a college town. I know how the college sports people are revered. Businesses give them freebies when they come in, cops look the other way, locals know that nothing will happen when the college kids get in trouble because it involves people from that school. I also go to college now. There is not a single professor on campus that isn't talked about. I find it really really hard to believe that no one and absolutely no one ever said " he likes kids if you know what I mean" I find it hard to believe that rumors were not circulating. I find it even harder to believe that the type of abuser he was, that there is not a circle of them on campus or in the community. From what I read he was one that didn't believe he was harming and I do believe he had a safe group of similar minded people. My college has the society of swingers. We all know which ones to avoid because they are scoping for the next ones to add to the club. Rumors, yes. Hearsay, yes BUT... They are there. I feel that the same was on Penn State campus.

 

the community needs to feel the sting and punishment. Without the community's reverence and putting Penn State on God status, it would have been much much harder for these things to occur. Are people are going to suffer? Yep, They should. They created the climate that allows Penn State to harbor evil without repercussions. They created the situation that allowed a janitor and assistant coach to know that they could do nothing to stop the rape of kids. The grappling wasn't should I report it but should I take the chance of being the most hated person in town for reporting this? Should I be the one to take on the Penn State community and suffer the repercussions? That needs punishment. That climate needs to be broken, destroyed, and eliminated. And the sting should be felt as far and as wide as the Penn State community reaches. The community created "Penn State" reverence that allowed police to dismiss it and DA to even feel it wasn't something they could stand against. that type of mentality needs to be broken. If innocents are harmed, consider it a small price to pay for the hands off Penn State mentality to have existed in the first place while children were selected from charities associated with Penn State and raped on their campus.

[Juniper]

If there was ever a time to use the "Death Penalty" option...this is it. This is not just one cover up, it is YEARS of cover ups. Victim added to victim, because of leadership greed and cowardice as well as a culture that encourages this type of "hero worship."

 

Even now, there is an attitude to minimize the damage to the college culture which is a slap in the face to the victims whose love of football has been forever tainted. Football was the door, and that door should be closed for a season....or two.

 

Honestly, PSU should be volunteering to halt its program until such a time as they have developed new policies, hired new staff, and can move forward as a "new" football program. Give everyone a break and a rest and at the very least honor the scholarships even if the players cannot play. :glare:

 

Added: I guess what I am trying to say, is it is time for them to SET an example and create a new LEGACY. One that say's, we will not run, minimize or damage control (for ourselves) this horrible situation. We will do the RIGHT thing, no matter how hard or painful.

 

And for those who are having a difficult time reconciling more "innocent" victims, I guarantee you that any of the true victims would gladly wish for the opportunity to go back in time and only have to deal with the fallout of this nightmare as "regular" student. Having the option to walk away from a college is a step up from having your innocence forever ripped from you, from never trusting a authority figure again, from years or lifetime of tainted sexual awareness. For one group it is a season that bites....for another it is a lifetime sentence they had no choice in. To even refer to shutting the program down as creating more victims is an insult to those that are true victims.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Juniper

[shea]

Apparently, there were rumors. I remember rumors being mentioned in some of the news stories after the scandal broke. I did find this article.

 

 

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/psu/penn-state-campus-subdued-as-scandal-details-air-322756/

 

 

In the past couple years, though, rumors started to circulate throughout State College and the Penn State campus about Mr. Sandusky's conduct.

 

"There were always rumors and stuff," Mr. Onusic said. "You know how people talk. That's State College, though. We've got a lot of politics."

 

 

"There were rumors for a couple years," said State College resident Neil Christy, 68, "but nobody wanted to believe. Sandusky has done so much good."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/psu/penn-state-campus-subdued-as-scandal-details-air-322756/#ixzz20cADRNof

Edited July 14, 2012 by suenc