Lisbeth Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Anyone that thinks that Penn States reputation is unharmed is deluding themselves. The only explanation for it is that they are surrounding themselves with like-minded people and are insulating themselves from reality. I agree. And it doesn't help that fans are leaving flowers at Joe Paterno's statue. Makes the crazy seem somewhat widespread there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I agree. And it doesn't help that fans are leaving flowers at Joe Paterno's statue. Makes the crazy seem somewhat widespread there. That I find disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 That I find disturbing. That kind of cult-like reverence is the reason why I don't have a problem in this instance with punishing the school as a whole by enforcing the full extent of this law. If people were hanging their heads in shame instead of what appears to be denial of reality on a massive scale, I'd be more inclined to just let the courts and NCAA do what they will. I think it will take dramatic action to create any sort of change there at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 That kind of cult-like reverence is the reason why I don't have a problem in this instance with punishing the school as a whole by enforcing the full extent of this law. If people were hanging their heads in shame instead of what appears to be denial of reality on a massive scale, I'd be more inclined to just let the courts and NCAA do what they will. I am not going to support punishing innocents because others worship Paterno. I also don't expect PSU graduates and football fans to walk about in sack cloth and ashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I love college football. I love the big plays, big crowds, big rivalries. I loved the road trips in college. I l.o.v.e. Bill Snyder. I have tremendous respect for him. If this had happened with my coach, my team, my school, I would have expected nothing less than sanctions and fines. I don't know that Penn State's program should be gone for good. It should, however, be cut off at the knees - shut down for two years and heavily sanctioned for ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delighted3 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I stand by what I said. There is no doubt in my mind that there were many more who had ample reason to suspect but who under-responded, ignored, or actively covered up. Suspicions do have to be acted on, especially with regard to something like pedophilia. A person does not have to actually witness an event in order to know that something is not right. As the Penn State scandal shows, even those who do have incontrovertible evidence often choose not to respond or to under-respond. I absolutely agree with this. I don't believe that only those 4 men knew about it or at least had suspicions something wasn't right. In my mind, anyone involved with PS football over those years is suspect. It may not be rational, but people are always going to wonder "Did this player/coach know anything?" JMO, Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delighted3 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I don't know that Penn State's program should be gone for good. It should, however, be cut off at the knees - shut down for two years and heavily sanctioned for ten. :iagree: I also think that the staff must be replaced from the ground up. No remnants from the previous program can be retained. JMO, Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBasil Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I absolutely agree with this. I don't believe that only those 4 men knew about it or at least had suspicions something wasn't right. In my mind, anyone involved with PS football over those years is suspect. It may not be rational, but people are always going to wonder "Did this player/coach know anything?"JMO, Joy 3 janitors knee of one incident, but said nothing for fear of losing their jobs. At some point it was reported, but I can't find out how or by who. I'm sure there are more people who just haven't said anything, but it could be anybody not just those connected to the football program, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delighted3 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 3 janitors knee of one incident, but said nothing for fear of losing their jobs. At some point it was reported, but I can't find out how or by who. I'm sure there are more people who just haven't said anything, but it could be anybody not just those connected to the football program, IMO. :iagree: You are right. I should have been less specific because I absolutely believe the corruption ran deep into PSU. JMO, Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 That kind of cult-like reverence is the reason why I don't have a problem in this instance with punishing the school as a whole by enforcing the full extent of this law. If people were hanging their heads in shame instead of what appears to be denial of reality on a massive scale, I'd be more inclined to just let the courts and NCAA do what they will. I think it will take dramatic action to create any sort of change there at all. VERY well said. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdalley Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) This is why I believe the corruption went way deeper than the few that are punished. A kid was given gifts and it threatened the 'integrity"? But raping children in showers did not? Shut down the football program for at least two years. Let the football players have the option to transfer without penalty. I am a Duke fan and if this happened I'd say shut the Basketball program down for a time. There is no way in heck that I could delude myself into not believing that what Coach K says is as good as a god's word on the Duke campus. I'd be all for pulling up the Coach K floor at Cameron if something like this had turned up. Coaches should stop being treated like gods. Seriously. It's utterly ridiculous. It's college basketball down here. It's as much of a frenzy as college football is at Penn State. Children were raped. Repeatedly. Something could have been done but it wasn't because the football program was so darned important. No. Nothing is more precious than a child. Period. And what about the missing prosecutor - Ray Gricar? Or the school that let Jerry Sandusky take the kids out of school? It was a community problem and it stemmed from the idol that was Penn State football. Edited July 15, 2012 by pdalley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 And what about the missing prosecutor - Ray Gricar? I know! I haven't forgotten him either. His disappearance is chilling. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home'scool Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 They should get the Death Penalty to their football program for 4 years. That would allow a whole "generation" of a class (freshman year to graduation) to pass thru the campus and force Penn State to realign itself and it's campus to one that is free of the Paterno football legacy. They need a whole class of students free from the cult that has become the football program. That cult-like adoration of the football program, and the "protect it at all costs" attitude, is STILL prevalent on campus, even with all the key players in the scandal gone. The monsters are gone, but the environment that created them is still there. And that leaves too much chance that new ones will be born. The alumni and trustees need to get back to focusing on academics. The boosters need to find some other reason to support the school other than football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 No, I don't think the school should be shut down. Yes, I do think the football program should be suspended for a few years at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 happens now. I don't wish to punish anyone or any entity, but I do think those people and entities should have to face the consequences of their actions. what about when those entities being punished are the students, athletes and taxpayers of Pennsylvania-none of which had actions causing this terrible tragedy. DH and I are also alumni and are horrified by the scandal-as are all of the alumni we are still in contact with. What I have a problem with now are all the people that look in from the outside and want to punish people without thinking of the consequences. Those that perpetrated the crimes are being and will be punished and JoPa is dead. Believe it or not-there is much more to Penn State than football Jeanette 1993 PSU Animal Bioscience graduate No, I will not be putting my name on any paper that will be encouraging the punishment of the innocent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Well we obviously strongly disagree on two points: I think Penn State's reputation has been harmed. If an institution will overlook such abuse and condone it by allowing it to continue, everything else they have done comes into question. If they will trade the well being of many children for the sake of their reputation, what else have they done? It's sort of like if you find out a cop is "dirty" it is grounds to look at every case they have ever touched. everything else comes into question My diploma and those of the hundreds of thousands of other graduates?...the top notch instruction I recieved? the fundraising from THON and other charitable events?... all other PSU sports?... Penn State agricultural extension? ...How about 4-H? Just because something horrible happened there, does not indicate that all the good things that have are worth nothing or are questionable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I am not going to support punishing innocents because others worship Paterno. I also don't expect PSU graduates and football fans to walk about in sack cloth and ashes. I had a great experience at Penn State and will not be ashamed of that fact. I will always love the University and yes-would still consider sending my children there. There is much more to Penn State than football and much more to Penn State football than this scandal. I also will not support the punishment of people that had no part of the scandal-I never was in favor of punishing the whole crew for the crimes of a few-even in elementary school...Let those that perpetrated the crimes pay heavily, but I see nothing positive coming out of throwing those that had nothing to do with it under the bus to make some people feel like they have done something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ah, but we don't know what role Paterno played exactly. We know he was involved, but the majority of the email conversations did not involve him or mention his name. Spanier himself knew better, and even mentioned the repercussions if they were found out...and did it anyway. Blaming it on the culture is the easy way out. Spanier, Paterno, and company made a decision based on money. So yes, they were protecting the PSU brand, but no more so than churches did when they covered their scandals. Same for the Boy Scouts and others. No one can really show a systemic breakdown unless they can demonstrate numerous other parties at PSU knew and turned a blind eye. So far, no one has done that. I'm sure if more people are implicated in the cover up-they will be charged and punished accordingly...as they should be-and hopefully severely. I see a lot of people here and elsewhere indicating that other people know -I can't imagine that the police are not looking into who else worked to cover this scandal up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I think the message should be sent because everyone there at school and the community participated in the atmosphere that allowed the crimes to take place. I live in a college town. I know how the college sports people are revered. Businesses give them freebies when they come in, cops look the other way, locals know that nothing will happen when the college kids get in trouble because it involves people from that school. I also go to college now. There is not a single professor on campus that isn't talked about. I find it really really hard to believe that no one and absolutely no one ever said " he likes kids if you know what I mean" I find it hard to believe that rumors were not circulating. I find it even harder to believe that the type of abuser he was, that there is not a circle of them on campus or in the community. From what I read he was one that didn't believe he was harming and I do believe he had a safe group of similar minded people. My college has the society of swingers. We all know which ones to avoid because they are scoping for the next ones to add to the club. Rumors, yes. Hearsay, yes BUT... They are there. I feel that the same was on Penn State campus. the community needs to feel the sting and punishment. Without the community's reverence and putting Penn State on God status, it would have been much much harder for these things to occur. Are people are going to suffer? Yep, They should. They created the climate that allows Penn State to harbor evil without repercussions. They created the situation that allowed a janitor and assistant coach to know that they could do nothing to stop the rape of kids. The grappling wasn't should I report it but should I take the chance of being the most hated person in town for reporting this? Should I be the one to take on the Penn State community and suffer the repercussions? That needs punishment. That climate needs to be broken, destroyed, and eliminated. And the sting should be felt as far and as wide as the Penn State community reaches. The community created "Penn State" reverence that allowed police to dismiss it and DA to even feel it wasn't something they could stand against. that type of mentality needs to be broken. If innocents are harmed, consider it a small price to pay for the hands off Penn State mentality to have existed in the first place while children were selected from charities associated with Penn State and raped on their campus. bolded is my doing... I don't ever think innocent people should be punished for something they didn't do-ever. Why should the local guy that owns the sub shop suffer? He didn't do anything wrong. Why should the employee at the dairy research facility suffer? He didn't do anything wrong. When does liking the Penn State football program make you some kind of criminal? This Idea that because some people are disgusting criminal pigs-everyone on and associated with the whole university and community must be punished to make some people feel like enough has been done. Gee-when I attended 20 years ago there were 45,000 students there plus thousands more at the community campuses. On top of that there are the staff and the communities that depend on those students and the university for their livelihoods. How can all of those people deserve to be punished? As I tell my children all the time-two wrongs do not make a right... I agree (as does every other person I know-including all my PSU alumni friends) that every person that had any small part of this scandal should be punished to the full extent of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'm sure if more people are implicated in the cover up-they will be charged and punished accordingly...as they should be-and hopefully severely. I see a lot of people here and elsewhere indicating that other people know -I can't imagine that the police are not looking into who else worked to cover this scandal up. There is a big difference between what is legally actionable versus what is not. The police do not have the power or the authority to charge all those who knew or who had good reason to suspect. Honestly, the police will not be able to discover all those who knew or suspected. Abuse and its cover-up is both systemic and cultural. Removing power from just a few who got caught will not change the culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 In all fairness, they went to bat for Paterno based on what was being said at the time. Remember the PA AG stated that the time that Paterno was not being charged with anything, and based on Paterno's testimony to the grand jury, he claimed to have no knowledge of the 1998 incident, and was certainly playing himself off as not being responsible. Based on his reputation to that point in time, I can see college students rallying behind what they perceived as his mistreatment by the BOT. You did not hear anyone rushing to support Sandusky in any way, shape or form. Or even rushing to the defense of the two administrators indicted at that time. :iagree: I don't have any ties to Penn State other than some friends who went there, but my initial impression was that Paterno got fired as a scape goat, a common occurrence for coaches when anything touches their teams, whether it's their actual fault or not. I can imagine that's what the students thought, too. It is very, very different to process negative information about a stranger than about someone you know and love (even at a distance, as would be the case for many Penn State students.) It just takes longer to tear down strong cognitive bonds and thought patterns and make them fit with new negative information than it does to take in new information about a stranger. What the average student knew about Joe Paterno was utterly inconsistent with what we now know. As I recall, kids from Penn State did hold vigils for the victims, and I believe it was many more than participated in riots. Maybe my memory isn't correct, but that's what I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) what about when those entities being punished are the students, athletes and taxpayers of Pennsylvania-none of which had actions causing this terrible tragedy. DH and I are also alumni and are horrified by the scandal-as are all of the alumni we are still in contact with. What I have a problem with now are all the people that look in from the outside and want to punish people without thinking of the consequences. Those that perpetrated the crimes are being and will be punished and JoPa is dead. Believe it or not-there is much more to Penn State than football Jeanette 1993 PSU Animal Bioscience graduate No, I will not be putting my name on any paper that will be encouraging the punishment of the innocent. Honestly, I have a problem with people saying others shouldn't have a say because they're on the 'outside'. I kind of think that helped lead to the current problem. It wasn't just any crime, children were raped. I do think the institution has been harmed and I do think the penalties should be severe. I hope TPTB choose to send a message that it isn't ok and it won't be overlooked in the future. I am honestly sorry for the innocent people/students who would be affected, but what they will go through is nothing compared to the victims. Edited July 21, 2012 by Horton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertechmom Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 bolded is my doing... I don't ever think innocent people should be punished for something they didn't do-ever. Why should the local guy that owns the sub shop suffer? He didn't do anything wrong. Why should the employee at the dairy research facility suffer? He didn't do anything wrong. When does liking the Penn State football program make you some kind of criminal?This Idea that because some people are disgusting criminal pigs-everyone on and associated with the whole university and community must be punished to make some people feel like enough has been done. Gee-when I attended 20 years ago there were 45,000 students there plus thousands more at the community campuses. On top of that there are the staff and the communities that depend on those students and the university for their livelihoods. How can all of those people deserve to be punished? As I tell my children all the time-two wrongs do not make a right... I agree (as does every other person I know-including all my PSU alumni friends) that every person that had any small part of this scandal should be punished to the full extent of the law. I stand by what I said. The culture created by the community and the alumni created the situation that would have at least TWO grown people witness the rape and molestation of children and walk away because of the culture at Penn State. Those same people had discussions with multiple people over what to do and how to do it and the consensus both times were "tell TPTB and walk away" Penn State people seem to "like" Penn State to the point of turning their eyes away and allowing wrong to be done. And I'm sure many many things are allowed beyond this. We live in a college town. I'm sure a number of kids get into trouble and get a pass because of the "like" of the police officers. I'm sure they get privileges and things from the locals because of that "like" and when that "like" has built up to the point that local school officials will allow a child to leave school with an official from Penn State because it is viewed as beneficial to the child and policy be hanged, then that "like" needs to be held accountable. And when that "like" is so great and so big that parents will ignore their gut instincts because it involves Penn State and everyone likes them so I the parent must be overreacting, then the community bears responsibility for that attitude. If the NCAA will sanction schools for giving away tattoos, using politically incorrect names, giving away books, and all sorts of other minor things, why should they not punish a university that developed programs or supported programs that allowed a child rapist to exist and gave him keys to their program and the tickets and perks that would allow him to attract children and knew about it? without Penn State support, sandsuky would have been less enabled. If the leaders of this school will violate mandatory reporting laws because of the tarnish it would bring to the football program, then surely the full extent of all agencies should come down upon the school. Punishing a handful of people will not change the fact that the school, the community, and the alumni hold some responsibility for the climate that allowed it to happen. Making a program so successful and well liked that "JoPa" would turn a blind eye to the rape of kids by his second in command he was grooming to take his place so as to not disappoint the community and not hurt the donations from the alumni is a big part of the problem. The community came first. the rape of kids came second. I fully understand the consequences of sanctioning Penn State to the moon and back. I still believe it needs to be done because I don't think the ones on the inside are clearly seeing the extent of the problem as yet. the ones on the inside are still too shell shocked to even address the whole issue. Was this not the reason outside investigator was hired? Because Penn State can't even begin to address the full extent of the situation and needed outside eyes to reveal just how far and wide the problem goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaver_67579 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Honestly, I have a problem with people saying others shouldn't have a say because they're on the 'outside'. I kind of think that helped lead to the current problem. It wasn't just any crime, children were raped. I do think the institution has been harmed and I do think the penalties should be severe. I hope TPTB choose to send a message that it isn't ok and it won't be overlooked in the future. I am honestly sorry for the innocent people/students who would be affected, but what they will go through is nothing compared to the victims. I don't have a problem with authorities having a say or people speaking their minds. I do not think that most people commenting here have ever gone to Penn State or worked there or lived in Happy Valley. Many people in the media and on message boards and such make comments that imply the whole community is responsible for this atrocity. That is purely untrue. As an alumnus-I am included in that "community" I know of nobody that has ever said that the Sandusky should not be punished (there is not enough punishment possible for that man) along with all those that broke the law to cover it up. Believe me-all the alumni I know believe those that were part of this should go down and be punished severely. What I have a problem with is the many people that are so mad they are willing to throw a whole lot of innocent people under the bus to make themselves feel better about enough being done. It is not ok ever to punish innocent people just because "it is nothing compared to what the victims went through". How will punishing the innocent students, athletes, faculty, staff and community make life any better for the victims? Will it make them feel better that lots of people may lose their jobs, kids with scholorships will have to drop out of school, that 4-H and farm programs may be affected...? It was wrong for Sandusky to molest the boys, it was wrong for others to cover it up and it is wrong to punish others that had nothing to do with it. wrong +wrong +wrong does not equal right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdalley Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I still say they should shut down the football program for two years. Allow the players to transfer without penalty. They are more likely than not players that other teams would want. If I recall correctly they have to maintain grades to keep eligibility so I don't see a problem there either. They probably have scholarships - again - they are probably players that would be wanted by other teams. Not ONE person tried to find out who that poor kid was in the shower. Not ONE! So yes, the entire football program needs to be shut down and cleaned out - top to bottom. It's not just that laws were broken - every moral code I can think of was disregarded. No one cared enough to find out who that boy was in the shower - no, they were concerned with 'not ruining someone's weekend' or protecting 'the program'. Not sure how the above scenario is punishing anyone but 'the program'. It was all about 'the program' - protecting 'the program'. So clean out 'the program'. Break the mentality of 'the program'. Then restart and make sure it never happens again. As I said, I am a Duke basketball fan. If something of this type were to occur at Duke then I would want all of the above and then some. Yes, the same 'protect the program' is in every single college where they put a lot of pride into 'the program'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juniper Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 what about when those entities being punished are the students, athletes and taxpayers of Pennsylvania-none of which had actions causing this terrible tragedy. DH and I are also alumni and are horrified by the scandal-as are all of the alumni we are still in contact with. What I have a problem with now are all the people that look in from the outside and want to punish people without thinking of the consequences. Those that perpetrated the crimes are being and will be punished and JoPa is dead. Believe it or not-there is much more to Penn State than football Jeanette 1993 PSU Animal Bioscience graduate No, I will not be putting my name on any paper that will be encouraging the punishment of the innocent. I have been the victim in a similar institution type of scandal. I have lived through the attempts at cover ups and the whole "innocent people will suffer" mentality. So here are my thoughts as a victim. If the football program was the central point for the incidences, its fame, its power, its draw...everything about the football program, then shutting it down for a couple years would help in my healing. I realize that certain community businesses might suffer, but I am well aware that those businesses flourished as a result of football program that was so idolized it was deemed untouchable for many years. Would football scholarship students suffer? Yes. And I think everything should be done to find them an alternative university with PSU footing the bill for them. It is PSU's job to make sure as few innocents don't suffer, but there should be consequences to the football program. If you have not been the victim of something like this than you cannot imagine the nausea, anger, sadness, devastation, pain, and fear at realizing that many people put food on their plates by supporting a culture that allowed you to be victimized. As a victim you know that they did not officially "know," but you also know that their family vacation to Disney, their turkey dinner with the trimmings, their kids soccer registrations was quite probably paid for with money that was earned because of football culture that forced you to pay the ultimate price. So, while I do not think the various other sports, educational departments and community as whole should be punished, I do think the football program should go for awhile. Maybe not in totality, but definitively not in allowed to compete at the NCAA level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Well, the NCAA issued their ruling. No death penalty, primarily because they saw this as more of a university wide issue than specifically a football issue, and because they wanted culture change. There were many punitive measures, and the football program will be deeply damaged, probably for decades. And I heard the Big 10 was going to have a decision by 10am, though I haven't seen what that will be yet. The university wide culture was my primary concern when I posted this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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