Nest question -- head of household

[Nestof3]

You know, I had the same response after I read this book. After watching some marriage videos of theirs, though, I got rid of those and the book.

 

I realized that what I desired wasn't someone to be a stronger leader but a better example and a person more involved in our lives. I didn't need him for spiritual direction or wisdom -- I longed for a man to take as deep an interest in the bringing up and knowing of our boys as I had. Also, I longed more for a guy who was willing to go the extra mile because he saw how much I had put into the day.

 

I still feel this way.

 

My husband and I usually make descisions together. But if it came down to it, he would have the "final say", so to speak. I actually think it would be better for our marriage (and therby make me happier) if he were more "in charge". Mostly spiritually. I was saved (follower of Christ / Christian) long before he was. So I tend to "lead" the family (mostly just the kids) spiritually. But I would LOVE to give up/fully submit to him. I recently read "Created to be His Help Meet" by Debi Pearl and really appreciated the wisdom in that book. I DO NOT however agree with their parenting methods (just my opinion-and have to say it whenever referencing anything written by them, lest someone think I agree with eveything that they have written).

 

Ok, sorry to go on.....

[PinkInTheBlue]

This is exactly what I am saying. What has been described in a healthy marriage is exactly what my brother and his wife have. They would laugh at the concept of headship.

 

I agree with what you quoted Horton as saying and what you are saying. That's the way I see it. I don't see a need for "Head of Household" with a healthy, respectful relationship. I don't see why anyone should have the power to decide over what someone else disagrees with. In my relationship we wouldn't make a decision with something like that hanging between us. Regardless of the outcome there would be resentment.

[Nestof3]

I just wanted to say I think it's hilarious that I accidentally typed "nest" instead of "next" in my title. I've giggled about that all day.

[Mrs Twain]

Aside from trying to follow an understanding of scripture and believing one is obeying God, I'm trying to understand why one needs to be a head.

 

 

God created and designed people. God also created and designed marriage. He gave an instruction manual (so to speak) about how to make marriage work properly. You are asking why it is necessary to use or follow the instruction manual.

 

In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis wrote about the reasons for following the Bible, and one analogy he gave was about driving a car with a manual transmisison. If you follow the manufacturer's instructions and operate the clutch properly, the car will generally function well and last. If you don't follow the instructions, you will have a much higher chance of ruining the clutch or burning out the engine.

 

If I buy a model airplane, I will probably have more success putting it together if I follow the directions. If I said, "What is the reason for having and following these directions? Why don't I just throw out the directions and put it together whatever way I please?" I may or may not have a good airplane when I get done, but I think I would be wiser and have better results if I just followed the directions.

 

My appologies for the simplistic illustrations.

 

One other point, people seem to be equating the biblical concept of a husband's headship in marriage most predominantly with the husband having the "final say" or bossing the wife around. I really don't think this is the main point of the husband's role or of biblical leadership in general, especially since many of us here who follow the Bible can't even think of one example where the husband had to have the final say!

[I.Dup.]

I hated the book Created to be His Helpmeet. There is basically an entire religion in the fundamental circles formed around that book. Ironically the most vocal supporter I ever knew of that book went through a horrendous divorce, and she was one of the most miserable, angry women I ever knew. The part (in the book) where she describes him taking the trash out and dumping it all over the place, and then walking away while she is expected to pick it up? It makes me mad all over again just thinking about it.

 

I don't know. I know we are called, as Christians, to be servants. But something in me recoils when that is forced or expected or... something. I'm not sure. I will have to pray more about this. This whole submission thing within a marriage really gets my goat and I have had a lot of bad experiences with other Christians being judgmental and ugly about it.

[Joker]

God created and designed people. God also created and designed marriage. He gave an instruction manual (so to speak) about how to make marriage work properly. You are asking why it is necessary to use or follow the instruction manual.

 

In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis wrote about the reasons for following the Bible, and one analogy he gave was about driving a car with a manual transmisison. If you follow the manufacturer's instructions and operate the clutch properly, the car will generally function well and last. If you don't follow the instructions, you will have a much higher chance of ruining the clutch or burning out the engine.

 

If I buy a model airplane, I will probably have more success putting it together if I follow the directions. If I said, "What is the reason for having and following these directions? Why don't I just throw out the directions and put it together whatever way I please?" I may or may not have a good airplane when I get done, but I think I would be wiser and have better results if I just followed the directions.

 

My appologies for the simplistic illustrations.

 

One other point, people seem to be equating the biblical concept of a husband's headship in marriage most predominantly with the husband having the "final say" or bossing the wife around. I really don't think this is the main point of the husband's role or of biblical leadership in general, especially since many of us here who follow the Bible can't even think of one example where the husband had to have the final say!

 

I still don't get it. My dh doesn't lead or direct and we've made it 14 years. His father doesn't lead or direct his marriage, but is a minister. My mil is actually more in control, and they've made it 51 years!

 

Dh and I have navigated this marriage thing together and neither has needed to lead/direct the other. We talk, discuss, and eventually agree on all things. We do not need to label one or the other as the head of our home.

 

So, even if I throw out the 'have the final say', why do I need to have one member of my home as the head? It hasn't been needed before now, so can you give me an example of when it might be needed?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Horton

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't know. I know we are called, as Christians, to be servants. But something in me recoils when that is forced or expected or... something. I'm not sure.

When anyone tries to make a list of rules or regulations or "suggestions" based on the Bible, I get an icky feeling. Very icky. Agitated. I hate it...

 

and I feel like doing so is missing the point of the Bible altogether.

[Dustybug]

I would say 'Good question. Fact is, someone's gonna get the final say. And the Bible says the mand is the head of his wife, so there you go.'

 

Just my two cents.

 

Following the Bible is the way to be happy. God's commandments are protective, not restrictive.

The way to be unhappy is to go your own way.

 

I respect my husband as the head of the household, although he never claims that title.

Men who actually follow the Bible's way of being the head of the marriage do things a lot differently than what secular people imagine who don't understand the concept. Being the head involves a tremendous amount of serving and sacrifice.

 

That said, I can't think of a single time that my husband and I couldn't talk things out and agree on a significant decision, and where I had to submit to his choice against my choice. I think that I would follow my husband if we had a situation like that, though, since I respect his decisions and wisdom.

 

Among the most significant instructions to husbands and wives in the Bible are in Ephesians 5:22-33, which exhorts the husband to love his wife as he loves himself, and exhorts the wife to respect her husband.

 

BTW, dh and I have one of the most happy marriages of anyone we know.

 

We are another one of those extremely happy couples. We keep Christ at the center of our marriage. Neither of us are perfect and yet we love and respect each other very much and are both willing to sacrifice for our family.

 

ETA: When we married, I struggled with the man being the head. With lots of prayers and other Christians demonstrating how this really works, I have done a 180 in the last 16 years.

 

:iagree:with all of the above. I have struggled with the idea of headship/submission as well due to my mom only having a parade of abusive controlling men in her life as I grew up, but after doing a ton of studying, praying, and reading the Bible, I was able to see submission, etc for what it really is.

 

PPs were right. Submission does NOT mean obey. But it does mean to willingly put someone else's desires above your own which is what Jesus himself modeled for us in the Bible.

 

My DH is the head of our household. He gets the final say in decisions where either we can't come to agreement or I'm indifferent. This doesn't mean he stomps around, bellowing out orders, and that I must jump when he commands it.

 

For example, when we were first considering homeschooling, he was against it because he believed all the stereotypes. We had many discussions where I laid all the information and feelings I had about it out on the table. We came to a compromise and we had a year trial. At the end of the year, he decided that we could continue to homeschool because his ideas and thoughts about it had changed. If he was still against it, we would have sent our children to public school. I would have been disappointed, but I would have delegated that to be his decision to make since we did not agree.

 

Here is where I typically hear all the people jump out and say, "How dare he do that? What about YOUR feelings? I would have just not taken them to school, etc." Then I think, isn't all that exerting YOUR will on someone else as well, but in a more aggressive fashion? I don't know. I also think it implies that people believe that my DH would have made the decision without considering my thoughts/feelings, when really he did consider them, but still felt strongly otherwise.

 

Relationships are give and take on both sides. I submit to my husband, but that also doesn't mean that he never does anything he isn't too keen on. There are often times where he will agree to do something because of my input, even if he isn't in full agreement because he respects my opinions. Servant leader and all that jazz. :001_smile:

[Nestof3]

Yes, I am familiar with all that. I have been a Christian for 20 years, gave "vows" (we didn't call them that, though) to submit, etc.

 

Are you saying, though, that couples who do not hold to a husband is head of the wife model are unhappy? Are you saying that their marriages are fractured? Are you saying that a couple who does not hold to husband is head of the wife but are strong, faithful, happy, fulfilled, raising respectful and kind children are disappointing God in some way? Are you saying that non-Christians have bad marriages?

 

I'm just looking for something deeper than the generic (and I don't mean that in a mean way) answers people always give. I'm looking for real live examples of how headship has really helped a relationship -- how it would have been bad if the husband had not been head.

 

God created and designed people. God also created and designed marriage. He gave an instruction manual (so to speak) about how to make marriage work properly. You are asking why it is necessary to use or follow the instruction manual.

 

In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis wrote about the reasons for following the Bible, and one analogy he gave was about driving a car with a manual transmisison. If you follow the manufacturer's instructions and operate the clutch properly, the car will generally function well and last. If you don't follow the instructions, you will have a much higher chance of ruining the clutch or burning out the engine.

 

If I buy a model airplane, I will probably have more success putting it together if I follow the directions. If I said, "What is the reason for having and following these directions? Why don't I just throw out the directions and put it together whatever way I please?" I may or may not have a good airplane when I get done, but I think I would be wiser and have better results if I just followed the directions.

 

My appologies for the simplistic illustrations.

 

One other point, people seem to be equating the biblical concept of a husband's headship in marriage most predominantly with the husband having the "final say" or bossing the wife around. I really don't think this is the main point of the husband's role or of biblical leadership in general, especially since many of us here who follow the Bible can't even think of one example where the husband had to have the final say!

[justasque]

If I buy a model airplane, I will probably have more success putting it together if I follow the directions. If I said, "What is the reason for having and following these directions? Why don't I just throw out the directions and put it together whatever way I please?" I may or may not have a good airplane when I get done, but I think I would be wiser and have better results if I just followed the directions.

 

FWIW, some skilled folks in the model building community make considerable use of "kit bashing", where you take parts of a model kit and add and/or subtract other materials to make a unique model just the way you want it, to meet the unique needs of your project. See also "Frankenpattern", for sewists.

[angela in ohio]

Yes, but that's easy for me to say, because my dh is an amazing man. He is an example of servant leadership in all areas: his job, his relationships with others, but even more with dc and me. I believe he became this man and our marriage grew to be this because I decided to view him and treat him as the leader of our family. But it came without any big problems. In marriages I have known where the dh is dealing with *serious* issues, I don't think the woman simply giving the man authority as her head without substantial outside intervention is a good idea. (:grouphug:)

 

ETA: I think this all speaks to a much larger issue, too. I think many people have a different view of leadership these days, which makes their reaction to a dh as a leader different. We have noticed that many people want to be a leader to call all the shots, when our view of leadership is the one who takes the blows, the one who does the hard work, the one who sacrifices, etc.

Edited July 10, 2012 by angela in ohio

[Lovedtodeath]

Yes, I am familiar with all that. I have been a Christian for 20 years, gave "vows" (we didn't call them that, though) to submit, etc.

 

Are you saying, though, that couples who do not hold to a husband is head of the wife model are unhappy? Are you saying that their marriages are fractured? Are you saying that a couple who does not hold to husband is head of the wife but are strong, faithful, happy, fulfilled, raising respectful and kind children are disappointing God in some way? Are you saying that non-Christians have bad marriages?

 

I'm just looking for something deeper than the generic (and I don't mean that in a mean way) answers people always give. I'm looking for real live examples of how headship has really helped a relationship -- how it would have been bad if the husband had not been head.

Well, just because my husband saved the day or made the right decision in an example I would give wouldn't mean that it had anything to do with headship... I am sure just as many people can give an example of a wife doing this. kwim?

 

I am not sure what would really fit what you are asking for.

[Rivka]

That is exactly how it should work. It is only when the couple goes through talking it over, discussing the family values and needs, and agreement still cannot be reached, that it becomes a problem, and someone has to decide. (Or, in the example, go carless. ;) )

 

As I said, I have never seen this in a healthy marriage. Only in unhealthy ones, where there are power struggles. I've never said that the husband goes off and buys the car of his choice without discussion with his wife. I would never live that way, nor would my husband.

 

Then why the need to say you have a head of household or that your dh gets final say? I just don't get it. If healthy marriages function the way that many of us without one head of household function, why the need to label? Has there ever been a time you couldn't come to an agreement and dh decided? Has it ever happpened inside of a marriage you consider healthy? If so, can you give an example? I'm genuinely interested.

 

It's never happened in my marriage that I can remember. I can't think of any examples in healthy marriages that I know of. [...] I would say something like "OK, we've talked it over, I've told you what I think - now you need to decide." I would feel comfortable saying that because I trust he would do the right thing.

 

Anyway, then he would make the decision. It doesn't mean he would "get his way" but he would make his decision based on what's best for our family.

 

Maybe I just like knowing that if we can't agree, I can leave it to him and know that he will do the right thing. Maybe not everyone needs or desires that. I don't know.

 

Okay, I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who is in an egalitarian marriage and was raised by parents in an egalitarian marriage. So I recognize that my point of view is pretty foreign to yours. But it sounds to me like you're saying, "Gee, wouldn't it be great if your husband always made the best possible decisions for the family, automatically, without you having to negotiate or worry about what he'll decide?"

 

Well, yeah. That would be awesome. I personally think it's a fantasy, but it would be awesome if it existed. Where I part company with you is with your assertion that this is what headship is - the husband always making the best possible decision for the family - and that any counterexamples are invalid because that family is unhealthy or doing headship wrong.

 

To me it's like someone saying, "Wouldn't it be awesome if America had a completely wise, just, and benevolent king? We could sweep away all of the horrible disruptive antagonism of our political system, and trust in knowing that our king would make the right decisions for us every time!" And then sweeping away objections with, "But see, that's not how a good king would act. If you think it would lead to abuses of power, you just don't understand how real kingship is."

 

Yeah, if male headship/female submission was enacted in perfect mutual selflessness every time, and men were also uniquely empowered to see the right choice in every situation, it would be hard to argue with. But after you rack up enough counterexamples - which don't just exist in the imaginations of egalitarians, but can be seen in the personal stories of people on these boards, not to mention many women elsewhere who have broken away from patriarchial marriages - you have to start asking how many cases can be brushed aside with "oh, they're not doing it right."

[happyhomemaker25]

:iagree:with all of the above. I have struggled with the idea of headship/submission as well due to my mom only having a parade of abusive controlling men in her life as I grew up, but after doing a ton of studying, praying, and reading the Bible, I was able to see submission, etc for what it really is.

 

PPs were right. Submission does NOT mean obey. But it does mean to willingly put someone else's desires above your own which is what Jesus himself modeled for us in the Bible.

 

My DH is the head of our household. He gets the final say in decisions where either we can't come to agreement or I'm indifferent. This doesn't mean he stomps around, bellowing out orders, and that I must jump when he commands it.

 

For example, when we were first considering homeschooling, he was against it because he believed all the stereotypes. We had many discussions where I laid all the information and feelings I had about it out on the table. We came to a compromise and we had a year trial. At the end of the year, he decided that we could continue to homeschool because his ideas and thoughts about it had changed. If he was still against it, we would have sent our children to public school. I would have been disappointed, but I would have delegated that to be his decision to make since we did not agree.

 

Here is where I typically hear all the people jump out and say, "How dare he do that? What about YOUR feelings? I would have just not taken them to school, etc." Then I think, isn't all that exerting YOUR will on someone else as well, but in a more aggressive fashion? I don't know. I also think it implies that people believe that my DH would have made the decision without considering my thoughts/feelings, when really he did consider them, but still felt strongly otherwise.

 

Relationships are give and take on both sides. I submit to my husband, but that also doesn't mean that he never does anything he isn't too keen on. There are often times where he will agree to do something because of my input, even if he isn't in full agreement because he respects my opinions. Servant leader and all that jazz. :001_smile:

 

This is how we work as well. I am very passionate about stuff. He is more steady (and loves to play devil's advocate :) ) I love that he's kept me from diving head first into some questionable things. I don't love that he's vetoed some things I've really wanted. In the end for me it's all about trusting God. I believe that God has given me this man to lead me and protect me. I believe if I follow that I will be safe. God will take care of me. Of course my husband has never, ever, nor will he ever while he's in his right mind, lay a hand on me or abuse our children. I know that. It's easy for me to say that I trust my husband completely. Sometimes I get mad and stomp my foot, but it does not accomplish anything but to bring tension to our marriage and because I believe that God has given us a hierarchy in marriage I usually have to repent to God and my husband when I act like that. No one wants to do that, so I just try to not act out in the first place. LOL I have found it's so much better for me to take my frustrations to God. By the time I'm done telling Him everything that is wrong with my DH I am being shown my sins and flaws and how blessed I am to have the steady, loving, encouraging, man that I have!

Our home is happy, stable, secure, and loving, even though the past three years of rockiness. I'm not saying you can't be happy without biblical submission, but I know in our home it brings peace and a greater love than I could have ever imagined!

[Lovedtodeath]

I read some books with the submission spin on being a good wife and all it did was make me cry... a lot... over everything.

 

My husband was exasperated. "Did you forget Galatians 3:28 that easily?" He asked. "I thought we already had this figured out."

[Joker]

Sometimes I get mad and stomp my foot, but it does not accomplish anything but to bring tension to our marriage and because I believe that God has given us a hierarchy in marriage I usually have to repent to God and my husband when I act like that. No one wants to do that, so I just try to not act out in the first place. LOL I have found it's so much better for me to take my frustrations to God. By the time I'm done telling Him everything that is wrong with my DH I am being shown my sins and flaws and how blessed I am to have the steady, loving, encouraging, man that I have!

Our home is happy, stable, secure, and loving, even though the past three years of rockiness. I'm not saying you can't be happy without biblical submission, but I know in our home it brings peace and a greater love than I could have ever imagined!

 

The bolded seems so foreign to me. I don't 'act out' as an adult, but I do give my opinon and I expect it to be taken seriously. Dh and I both have opinions and they are both to be taken seriously. When we disagree, we continue to talk and eventually we come to an agreement. There has never, ever been a time where he needs to make a decision for both of us or that I feel a need to act out and stomp my feet.

 

Can you please give me an actual, real life, example of when your dh has made a decision that you did not agree with?

[MrsBasil]

Do you think having the man as head makes the marriage better? (I know what the Bible says; I am asking about personal experience)

 

Do you think it makes the family better to have one head, which is the man?

 

I have heard, "If you don't have a head, who makes the final decision?" How would you answer this?

 

I don't think it would work for us, we're equal and DH desires a true partnership. If we disagree we hash it out and go from there. Usually that means a compromise or going with the wants/needs of the person who is the wisest or the most passionate about a particular situation...

 

We're not perfect. We're happy, in love, best friends, and very respectful of each other. We do argue sometimes, get a little loud, or say the wrong things. It happens, we make up and move along.

 

I think the best we have done for our marriage is to attempt to put the needs of our family, each other, and our children ahead of our own. My husband is amazing at this and loves and gives all he has. I am getting there.

 

As for the final decision, I just don't know how to answer that. We both make the final decision. It's not final unless it works for us as a partnership most of the time. When it comes to something that might affect one of us more(which job DH takes or something like that) more weight is given to that person, but certainly we each have to be comfortable with a given choice.

[LittleIzumi]

I like being in charge most of the time :tongue_smilie:. My brother lives with us during college holidays and when I asked this afternoon, he said that "it's good there's a Woman of the House so things get taken care of most of the time--you're home all day so you know what's going on!" :lol: If hubby disagrees, usually he goes along with it anyway and then realizes I'm right. :D (Plus I think he's figured out by now that I'll research it to death and he doesn't really want to do the same, so it's easier to let me just try it out.) We do have reasoned discussions when needed, absolutely, and there are a few areas that he really does get involved with and researches and in those, I am happy to let him decide whatever he thinks is best. Just most things involving the home and family are "my" area and he trusts me enough that I have full rein.

Edited July 10, 2012 by LittleIzumi

[Mama Geek]

Yes, I am familiar with all that. I have been a Christian for 20 years, gave "vows" (we didn't call them that, though) to submit, etc.

 

Are you saying, though, that couples who do not hold to a husband is head of the wife model are unhappy? Are you saying that their marriages are fractured? Are you saying that a couple who does not hold to husband is head of the wife but are strong, faithful, happy, fulfilled, raising respectful and kind children are disappointing God in some way? Are you saying that non-Christians have bad marriages?

 

I'm just looking for something deeper than the generic (and I don't mean that in a mean way) answers people always give. I'm looking for real live examples of how headship has really helped a relationship -- how it would have been bad if the husband had not been head.

 

Maybe look at it another way...change your wording from the husband is head of the wife to Christ is the head of the church. Let's take your questions and include this instead.

 

Are you saying, though, that CHURCHES who do not hold to CHRIST is head of the Church model are unhappy? Are you saying that their LIVES are fractured? Are you saying that a CHURCH who does not hold to CHRIST is head of the CHURCH but are strong, faithful, happy, fulfilled, raising respectful and kind children are disappointing God in some way?

 

I know my answer to these questions, but you have to answer that for yourself.

 

Are you saying that non-Christians have bad marriages? I think what non-Christians do is kind of irrelevant. For those who accept Christ as Lord, it is more than just saying the words, it is following him. For me that covers so many of todays topics that are being fought over in our churches. Will God forgive me when I sin, yes Christ paid the price for us. Does that mean that the sin is no longer sin, IMO no.

 

ETA: I know that nowhere near everyone agrees with me on this. I am not trying to start a huge debate, I am just giving the OP a different way to look at things because she is asking.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Mama Geek

[amy g.]

The marriages I know where outsiders can tell that the man is the head of the household are not happy ones. I feel sorry for everyone involved.

 

I don't understand how it prevents power struggles. Dh and I have been married 20 years. We have never had a power struggle. Neither of us will agree with an action unless it makes us BOTH happy. We keep looking until we find that solution, and we always find it.

 

We want the other person to be happy more than we want our own way, and we truly believe that a choice cannot be right for our family unless it works for both of us, so there is no blame or anger about negotiating.

 

Sometimes, love and respect are enough and there is no need for one person to have the final say in a marriage.

[Bear23]

For my family it is best to have my husband the head of household. I am the one who likes freedom to do as one pleases while he's the one who lives for rules.:glare: He will say we are equal but he really does keep us going.

[Melinda in VT]

God created and designed people. God also created and designed marriage. He gave an instruction manual (so to speak) about how to make marriage work properly. You are asking why it is necessary to use or follow the instruction manual.

 

In Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis wrote about the reasons for following the Bible, and one analogy he gave was about driving a car with a manual transmisison. If you follow the manufacturer's instructions and operate the clutch properly, the car will generally function well and last. If you don't follow the instructions, you will have a much higher chance of ruining the clutch or burning out the engine.

 

If I buy a model airplane, I will probably have more success putting it together if I follow the directions. If I said, "What is the reason for having and following these directions? Why don't I just throw out the directions and put it together whatever way I please?" I may or may not have a good airplane when I get done, but I think I would be wiser and have better results if I just followed the directions.

 

My appologies for the simplistic illustrations.

 

One other point, people seem to be equating the biblical concept of a husband's headship in marriage most predominantly with the husband having the "final say" or bossing the wife around. I really don't think this is the main point of the husband's role or of biblical leadership in general, especially since many of us here who follow the Bible can't even think of one example where the husband had to have the final say!

 

But if you think you are following the manual and the car is breaking down or the model won't stay together, isn't it possible that you are misreading or misunderstanding the manual?

 

Insisting that things are as good as they can be because you are following the manual, even though the broken car or damaged model is right in front of your eyes seems odd.

 

(I'm not saying your marriage is broken or damaged. Just continuing the analogy and explaining why some people come to question their previous reading of the manual.)

[Melinda in VT]

For example, when we were first considering homeschooling, he was against it because he believed all the stereotypes. We had many discussions where I laid all the information and feelings I had about it out on the table. We came to a compromise and we had a year trial. At the end of the year, he decided that we could continue to homeschool because his ideas and thoughts about it had changed. If he was still against it, we would have sent our children to public school. I would have been disappointed, but I would have delegated that to be his decision to make since we did not agree.

 

The bold is how it happened in our home as well. The difference is that at the end of the year we sat down and discussed it again and both decided what to do for the next year.

[Soror]

But if you think you are following the manual and the car is breaking down or the model won't stay together, isn't it possible that you are misreading or misunderstanding the manual?

 

:iagree: It seems that there is a divergence on what it means to be the head of the household and how it is defined in many circles is not what I'd call biblical. I'd prefer not to use that term actually due to the connotations it generally has from those that say it. Just as many disagree about various points of the Bible I disagree with how the head of the household is often played out.

[marbel]

Well, yeah. That would be awesome. I personally think it's a fantasy, but it would be awesome if it existed. Where I part company with you is with your assertion that this is what headship is - the husband always making the best possible decision for the family - and that any counterexamples are invalid because that family is unhealthy or doing headship wrong.

 

But I have never said that any counterexamples are invalid. I said how it works for my family. I prefer it in my life. It works best in my marriage.

 

I think most people here described healthy marriages where the couple works things out together. If some of us prefer to consider our husbands as the heads of our family - even if it is, for all practical purposes, symbolic because we are always able to come to an agreement - what does it matter to those who don't?

 

Speaking only for myself, I love the security (I feel that I might come to regret using that word ;)) of knowing that my husband will make a wise decision for both of us, if we cannot agree on something. What is wrong with that? It has nothing to do with the way anyone else lives.

 

BTW I love discussions like this! So interesting.

 

ETA: And we do negotiate. We do talk things out. We listen to each other; it's not like when a decision has to be made, I keep my mouth shut and he does it all. That would be crazy. Like all families, we have faced big decisions and we have made them together. He doesn't just up and decide stuff without my input. It's not like that at all.

Edited July 10, 2012 by marbel

[Nestof3]

Yes, I understand the parallel. The place at which the metaphor fractures is the place at which a man falls very short of being Christ. Christ is perfect. I hear people ask, "What if the husband is abusing the wife?" Individual situations end up needing to be examined, etc. That would never occur with Jesus.

 

So, I started this thread not to help me decide whether my husband is my head (I already know what I believe regarding this). But, I wanted to see specifically how that fleshes out for people -- aside from just using the terminology. Honestly, most of the time, it appears to look exactly like families where there is no head but both couples are rational, caring individuals.

 

Maybe look at it another way...change your wording from the husband is head of the wife to Christ is the head of the church. Let's take your questions and include this instead.

 

Are you saying, though, that CHURCHES who do not hold to CHRIST is head of the Church model are unhappy? Are you saying that their LIVES are fractured? Are you saying that a CHURCH who does not hold to CHRIST is head of the CHURCH but are strong, faithful, happy, fulfilled, raising respectful and kind children are disappointing God in some way?

 

I know my answer to these questions, but you have to answer that for yourself.

 

Are you saying that non-Christians have bad marriages? I think what non-Christians do is kind of irrelevant. For those who accept Christ as Lord, it is more than just saying the words, it is following him. For me that covers so many of todays topics that are being fought over in our churches. Will God forgive me when I sin, yes Christ paid the price for us. Does that mean that the sin is no longer sin, IMO no.

 

ETA: I know that nowhere near everyone agrees with me on this. I am not trying to start a huge debate, I am just giving the OP a different way to look at things because she is asking.

[Nestof3]

Referring to bolded part. Nothing is wrong with that. But, instead of seeing as a headship thing, couldn't it just be that you find your husband so fantastically wise and caring that you trust he will make the right decision?

 

If you had never heard of the headship model, do you think you would still have a great marriage? Do you think you would trust him the same? Do you think he would still be a wise and caring man you respect?

 

You do realize that many women are married to selfish men who only care about their comfort, right?

 

BTW, does he feel the same way about you?

 

But I have never said that any counterexamples are invalid. I said how it works for my family. I prefer it in my life. It works best in my marriage.

 

I think most people here described healthy marriages where the couple works things out together. If some of us prefer to consider our husbands as the heads of our family - even if it is, for all practical purposes, symbolic because we are always able to come to an agreement - what does it matter to those who don't?

 

Speaking only for myself, I love the security (I feel that I might come to regret using that word ;)) of knowing that my husband will make a wise decision for both of us, if we cannot agree on something. What is wrong with that? It has nothing to do with the way anyone else lives.

 

BTW I love discussions like this! So interesting.

 

ETA: And we do negotiate. We do talk things out. We listen to each other; it's not like when a decision has to be made, I keep my mouth shut and he does it all. That would be crazy. Like all families, we have faced big decisions and we have made them together. He doesn't just up and decide stuff without my input. It's not like that at all.

[Mrs Twain]

Okay, here is a recent specific example:

 

We were trying to buy a house. We eventually found a wonderful house, much nicer than anything in our price range. However, it was a short sale with the potential that we could wait months for the contract to go through and still not get the house if the paperwork didn't clear the bank committees. Regardless, we put a contract on the house and decided to wait since we didn't have any other houses to bid on at the time.

 

A month or two later, another house in the same neighborhood came up for sale. It wasn't a short sale, and therefore much more likely to go through to closing. However, this second house was damaged and had a lot of issues which we would have to fix or replace. I was getting impatient with the first house, so I told dh we should just go ahead and get the second house even though it wasn't half as nice as the first. Dh told me that he would do what I wanted, but he thought that we should continue to wait for the first house since it was so much better.

 

I was a little frustrated, but I prayed about it. Dh and I have been married for more than 15 years, and there have been at least hundreds of times where I sense God is leading me through my husband's advice. In these times, God doesn't confirm my ideas but tells me to go with my husband. Over the years, I have seen it work out the best way if God is leading me to follow my husband and I go along with it. At first in our marriage it was difficult for us to make decisions together since we were so used to making decisions independently as single people. Over the years, though, we have grown together and are accustomed to functioning as a unit, as in the "becoming one flesh" idea. It is usually not difficult for me any longer to follow my husband's idea instead of mine if I sense God leading me that way. I see it primarily as obeying and following God if He is choosing to lead us through my husband.

 

In the end, I went with my husband's idea, and we waited for the first house. It eventually went through with the bank, so that we got a much nicer house than if I went my own way. I am so thankful that I decided to obey God and listen to my husband on that one.

 

This is the kind of example that happens quite often. The kind of leadership my husband exudes is mostly like a servant-leader, which is consistent with the biblical model. He doesn't stomp around the house stating that he is the head of the household and demanding everyone do everything his way. Rather, he implements are very gentle, loving type of leadership, very much like how Jesus leads us.

 

This is not to say that we always follow my husband's ideas and never my ideas. Homeschooling was an interesting example for us, as well as other pp's who posted here. I had gotten to the point that I thought our only choice with our eldest child was to take him out of the public school and temporarily homeschool him because of a dreadful situation at that school. Dh was quite against it at first, but we talked it through, and he and I agreed to homeschool for the remainder of that year and see how it went. The result was that dh, our child, and I all loved homeschooling and saw the great benefits. We mutally decided to keep continue homeschooling, and now dh is a stronger proponent of homeschooling than I am.

 

So sometimes we go with dh's opinion on a decision, and at other times we go with mine. I see the issue not primarily that I have to do whatever my dh wants, but as an issue of whether I will seek out God and follow His leading. There are many times that God leads me through my husband into the best plan for our lives. I have learned to trust God wth this rather than to go my own way.

 

In the end (at the final result), if you go God's way, you will be happier. On the other hand:

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." --Proverbs 16:25

[Tarreymere]

I've been married three times, widowed once, divorced once, and am currently married. I'd have to say that my willingness to have my husband be the head of the household depends on the particular man. My first husband, who passed away, was a wonderful hardworking man who just could not manage money. So, I did that and in the process we found that what worked best for in that marriage was that while we made most decisions together that financially things worked out better if I was the final decision-maker when it came to money.

 

In my second marriage, before he was catastrophically injured at work and became addicted to oxycontin, that husband was also not particularly good at managing money either so I continued to do that. This husband also preferred to have me make most major decisions about our family in other matters as well.

 

Currently (and for the last ten years) I am married to a man who is very good at managing money and prefers to do that. It was such a relief to be able to hand over that responsibility. This man also has a lot of life experience and common sense, and I feel that he makes very good decisions and usually considers things that I would never have thought of. I am very comfortable with his taking the lead in making decisions for our family and for his part he always makes sure that I am included in the decision-making process and that my concerns are at least taken into consideration if not the deciding factor. I would definitely consider him to be the head of household, because he is better suited to it and I am happy to not have that responsibility. It is rather a luxury to not have to be concerned about everything. I'm sure also that if I wanted to be more involved in leading the family he would be perfectly fine with that too.

[Nestof3]

Chiming in, and then I have to get my boys to summer camp.

 

I have seen both happy and unhappy marriages following a headship model. Neither in itself is proof that headship is good or bad, but I'm going to offer them up.

 

Yes, I have seen marriages where both people are happy. The woman accepts the man as head -- they use the terminology, but their marriage fleshes out just like a happy marriage like my brothers where no one claims headship. The wife seeks her husband's opinion because she trusts him, and he has proven to be a wise and caring person. When you see the nitty-gritty, they talk things through and the husband trusts his wife's input just like a non-headship following couple. They may have different roles. She may say, "My husband leads in family worship," but the wife could as easily say, "I lead in homeschooling, putting on diapers, and choosing healthy meals."

 

I have seen marriages where a man lay claim to headship when he is trying to win an argument. He has no rationality behind something, he is annoyed because he wants to spend hours on the computer surfing, and he wants to cling to some sort of justification. I have seen this man not take the same effort to know and understand his children, not be willing to serve to the extent it was needed, throw fits when he didn't get his way, and when he could not come up with any other defense, "head of the house" works. If his children show disrespect because he is being calloused and uninvolved but demanding, this card is thrown around.

 

I have seen a man lay claim to headship who actually brought up the validity of spanking his wife at our house church. He was a pedophile who had some fantasy interaction with his own children. His niece committed suicide, and a few years later, he did as well. We left that house church prior to knowing about the pedophilia. We just knew he was a power-hungry person and wanted to get away from him.

[DawnM]

:iagree: This is us too, only we have been married a mere 17 years.

 

We find we are typically on the same page about most things (other than politics occasionally, but that is a whole different topic!)

 

The other thing about my DH is that he is VERY laid back, I am more the go-getter and instigator to get things done.

 

 

No.

No.

We decide together who gets to make the final decision on the particular issue we can't agree on. We've been married 18 years and have never felt the need for a permanent final decision maker.

[marbel]

Referring to bolded part. Nothing is wrong with that. But, instead of seeing as a headship thing, couldn't it just be that you find your husband so fantastically wise and caring that you trust he will make the right decision?

 

Maybe so. It could also be that because he takes his role of head of the family very seriously, he is careful to make wise decisions.

 

If you had never heard of the headship model, do you think you would still have a great marriage? Do you think you would trust him the same? Do you think he would still be a wise and caring man you respect?

That's hard to answer! I suppose if all other circumstances were the same, sure. Why not? I see people here describing great marriages without using a headship model.

 

You do realize that many women are married to selfish men who only care about their comfort, right?

Of course. I hope I have never indicated otherwise.

 

I didn't mention that I had actually been married once before. We were not Christians. (Well, I had been raised in a Christian home but wandered off for a while.) He did not follow a headship model but he sure believed he was the boss of me. My comfort was the last thing on his mind.

 

Of course there are also families who believe they are following a headship model but really the husband is not. Those are the guys bellowing about their status as head of the family. Strewing socks around and yelling at the kids (or worse). I've also known women who wouldn't make even a minor decision on their own, even when encouraged to do by their husbands. They are a burden on their husbands!

 

There are also men who are married to selfish wives who care nothing for their husband's comfort.

 

There are plenty of forms of dysfunction around.

 

BTW, does he feel the same way about you?

Yes. Earlier upthread someone commented that she takes care of the house and keeps things going. (I'm paraphrasing badly.) My husband trusts me to make good decisions about money, house stuff, the kids, etc. I make the homeschool decisions, though he is interested and if I can't decide on something, will look it over with me. I am in charge of day-to-day finances. When we have to make a major purchase, we discuss it. Fortunately we are able to buy most things we need without discussing it first. My husband did ask me what I thought about a $200 dehumidifier recently, not because I am an expert at dehumidifiers but that is a big enough purchase that he didn't want to buy it if the funds weren't there to pay the bill. I buy the groceries and though he would like me to buy more expensive meat, he trusts me that there is a reason no lamb chops are coming home. ;) I don't mean to make it sound that all my decisions are minor. Most day to day decisions are anyway.

 

We have had some big decisions to make, and we always manage to make them together. This is not the place to get into the whole story, but five years ago we made a complete change to our lives. It wasn't done on a whim; it was done with lots of discussion.

Edited July 10, 2012 by marbel

[katilac]

No, I do not think a marriage benefits by having the man OR the woman as head of household.

 

We make final decisions together, using negotiation and compromise, like the grownups that we are.

 

Married 20 years, 2 kids about to turn 12 and 14.

 

fyi, I only responded to the OP, didn't read the other responses.

[justamouse]

O

 

I was a little frustrated, but I prayed about it. Dh and I have been married for more than 15 years, and there have been at least hundreds of times where I sense God is leading me through my husband's advice. In these times, God doesn't confirm my ideas but tells me to go with my husband.

 

But I have the same story only I dug in and said I KNOW this is our house and I fought for it.

 

And I was right. And it was uglyuglyugly, but I knew I was right, and I was-and I was hugly right, this is our forever home and so perfect in every way it's like God built us a house. Stuff I didn't even know I wanted or love is here. Our family is flourishing. It was a 180 for me, too, this house because we had plans of being organic farmers and the opportunity had arisen. This house was in *town* and I hate neighbors. :-) So it was a faith walk for me, too.

 

Same with homeschooling. He refused to listen, I kept the kids home. Just like that. No worries of how mad he was going to get. Of course now they're all home and he wouldn't send them back.

 

S'all good, he came round to my way of thinking. But it wasn't without a brawl. (which we're OK with, our marriage is strong)

 

If I had listened to him, forgetaboutit. I'd be in a wonderful house but it wouldn't be HERE (close, but not here) and our family wouldn't be flourishing as it is, with this neighborhood, and this church and this life.

 

I can't even think about my kids being in school....

 

And you can't say, well, he wasn't listening to God. We ALL don't listen to God sometimes. That's why we're mates, so we can pull eachother through.

Edited July 10, 2012 by justamouse

[justamouse]

I think this is where the impact of anecdotes falls apart. While there are wonderful men who consistently make wise decisions and prove their love and devotion to their families in myriad ways, there are other men who . . . don't.

 

Sometimes the wife has the better insight, no?

 

For every "husband suggested a wise choice and I was right to trust him on it" story, aren't there just as many "wife suggested a wise choice and I was right to trust her on it"?

 

Exactly. :iagree:

 

We're MATES. We MAKE a whole. There's no one higher than the other. We're knit, he's got my weak places, and I've got his.

[sunnylady303]

You know, if it worked in real life like it's supposed to, I think it would be great. It's not about who makes the final decision. It's about a man loving his wife and family the way Christ loves the church. It's about sacrifice and service, not being in charge.

 

In a fallen and broken world? The most patriarchal families I've known have also been the most abusive families I've known. A husband who told his wife that he would continue putting his dirty socks on the floor until she learned to pick them up without complaining. A father who thinks that he should be the "king" of the house and the rules he's teaching his kids don't apply to him. The mother who just has to make a move toward the belt hanging on the wall to make her kids snap to.

 

No thanks!

 

ETA: I am a conservative Christian. But I think this is one topic that has been misinterpreted, carried to illogical extremes, and abused in large parts of the modern church.

 

:iagree: Yes! I haven't finished reading through all the resposes. I caught this on the third page and felt the need to agree. Being "head" of the house isn't about being king or making final decisions or taking charge of money. It's about...I don't know...leadership and maturity and sacrificial love. I read somewhere that a man should be the head of the house and a woman should be the heart. I don't know about "should" because every marriage has to find its own way, but for us this works.

 

I think words and phrases like "head of the house" and "submission" have been co-opted to mean something they were never meant to mean. I handle finances and make most detail decisions, but for me, viewing DH as head means that I make a conscious effort to respect him when I used to discount his opinions without even meaning to. It means I look to him for leadership. It means that I approach him with a spirit of willingness. I don't know. This paradigm has radically changed and improved our marriage (which was pretty darn good to begin with.)

 

I just think it's a shame that we see "head of the household" and immediately think boss, king, final decision maker. That's what has fed abuse of power through the centuries. For us it's about symbiosis and respect and it is really beautiful. We serve each other.

[Soror]

But I have the same story only I dug in and said I KNOW this is our house and I fought for it.

 

And I was right. And it was uglyuglyugly, but I knew I was right, and I was-and I was hugly right, this is our forever home and so perfect in every way it's like God built us a house. Stuff I didn't even know I wanted or love is here. Our family is flourishing. It was a 180 for me, too, this house because we had plans of being organic farmers and the opportunity had arisen. This house was in *town* and I hate neighbors. :-) So it was a faith walk for me, too.

 

Same with homeschooling. He refused to listen, I kept the kids home. Just like that. No worries of how mad he was going to get. Of course now they're all home and he wouldn't send them back.

 

S'all good, he came round to my way of thinking. But it wasn't without a brawl. (which we're OK with, our marriage is strong)

 

If I had listened to him, forgetaboutit. I'd be in a wonderful house but it wouldn't be HERE (close, but not here) and our family wouldn't be flourishing as it is, with this neighborhood, and this church and this life.

 

I can't even think about my kids being in school....

 

And you can't say, well, he wasn't listening to God. We ALL don't listen to God sometimes. That's why we're mates, so we can pull eachother through.

 

Well, even in the Bible the man isn't always right. Sometimes the women had to lead. Everyone is wrong at least some of the time, all of us are selfish sometime, none of us are married to Jesus. Sometimes I've acquiesced to dh even though I didn't agree 100% and vice versa, we both have trusted each other. But we've both put our foot down when we've thought the other dead wrong as well. Just as we would any other brother or sister in Christ.

[Joanne]

:iagree: Yes! I haven't finished reading through all the resposes. I caught this on the third page and felt the need to agree. Being "head" of the house isn't about being king or making final decisions or taking charge of money. It's about...I don't know...leadership and maturity and sacrificial love. I read somewhere that a man should be the head of the house and a woman should be the heart. I don't know about "should" because every marriage has to find its own way, but for us this works.

 

I think words and phrases like "head of the house" and "submission" have been co-opted to mean something they were never meant to mean. I handle finances and make most detail decisions, but for me, viewing DH as head means that I make a conscious effort to respect him when I used to discount his opinions without even meaning to. It means I look to him for leadership. It means that I approach him with a spirit of willingness. I don't know. This paradigm has radically changed and improved our marriage (which was pretty darn good to begin with.)

 

I just think it's a shame that we see "head of the household" and immediately think boss, king, final decision maker. That's what has fed abuse of power through the centuries. For us it's about symbiosis and respect and it is really beautiful. We serve each other.

 

I don't assume abuse of power. But it is, by design, a hierarchy and unequal.

 

http://rachelheldevans.com/complementarians-patriarchy

[Firefly]

I think no matter what nice words you use to describe it, it still boils down to power and submission. I lived in the Middle East for many years. In Saudi Arabia, women were not allowed to drive; they had special curtained-off seating in the backs of buses and in restaurants; and as I'm sure most everyone knows or has seen they were expected to cover everything from ankle to wrist. This, it was explained to me by the women I met there, was for their own protection, because the men in their lives so loved and cherished them and knew best. And while the circumstances illustrate headship/submission taken to the extreme in that part of the world, the sentiment behind it seems the same.

[Mimm]

The bold? It seems that only people who believe in a hierarchy believe that someone has to have final say.

 

:iagree: Why, exactly, does someone need to have the final say? What will happen if no one does? Do people really think that nothing will get done, no decisions will get made, the family will fall into chaos? :p

 

And what if it's the wife who "rightly suggests" a small SUV and the husband insists on the sporty two-seater and will not relent? Is she now right to go and buy the small SUV or is his decision still the right one because, after all, he is the head? She should submit in that scenario?

 

I think this is where the impact of anecdotes falls apart.

 

The entire car example is ridiculous. Between an SUV and a "sporty two seater" there's a clear right and wrong answer and the person who is right should "win" the argument, regardless if it's the wife or the husband. Most of the decisions that my husband and I have argued about haven't had a clear right or wrong. Both sides have good points, both choices have advantages, other choices might be possibilities- like the car example, most choices in life don't just have two options. And are much more complicated and difficult to solve than, "Well, if we got the sports car, where would the kids sit?"

[sunnylady303]

I don't assume abuse of power. But it is, by design, a hierarchy and unequal.

 

I don't agree with this. At least in my analogy. How do you say what is more important hierarchically - the head or the heart? Neither can survive without the other. I agree, that term has generally been understood to be a hierarchical concept in our culture. But that's my whole argument. It isn't supposed to be. It's supposed to be interdependent and serving.

[Blueridge]

We've been in 'conservative Christian circles' most of my married life. I've seen so much destruction within homes (divorce, sickness, despair, abuse) because of the misinterpretation of this Biblical concept. I remember as a newly saved woman, sitting at the dinner table with a church family. The wife had taken me under her wing, so to speak, and was trying to show me what a proper way of handling a husband and family looked like. ;) What I observed, however, was not what I personally believed to be God's model of a Godly home dynamic. I saw her husband sitting at the head of the table, pompously demanding more of this food, less of that food, more salt, where's the butter, more salad...that poor woman *with a smile on her face and running shoes literally on her feet* jumping up from the table continually through that meal, trying to serve and please her husband. His attitude didn't seem at all respectful to me...it seemed sinful and arrogant. That same woman was sharing later at a ladies retreat how difficult her life was, and was seeking advice on how to do better at serving him. :tongue_smilie: My husband would never demand this kind of subservience from me, but I saw that many men might expect it from their wives. This is not what God intended, imo. Being 'heirs together in the grace of life' means seeking the best for the other person, not ourselves. If a husband demands that his opinion been seen as the law of the home, not including the thoughts, feelings, or best interest of his wife, he is in error...no matter what the good old boy's club at church thinks. Sacrifice. Love is often about sacrifice, which is giving up one's desires for the other out of love. It goes both ways. Wives were never intended to be doormats.

ETA: I also know that, in my home, my dh has the final say (usually it is a mutual decision)...but he understands that the Lord will hold him accountable for his decisions and actions for the family, not me.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Blueridge

[Nestof3]

I didn't mention that I had actually been married once before. We were not Christians. (Well, I had been raised in a Christian home but wandered off for a while.) He did not follow a headship model but he sure believed he was the boss of me. My comfort was the last thing on his mind.

 

 

However, according to the Biblical headship model, if you were still married to him today, you would submit to him as your head and trust God that he knew how to lead you?

[Nestof3]

True -- it doesn't usually work out that way, but according to headship model, a woman would submit because she trusts her husband to lead just as the Church should trust Christ. Sure, she would be allowed to give her opinion, but he would have the final say.

 

:iagree: Why, exactly, does someone need to have the final say? What will happen if no one does? Do people really think that nothing will get done, no decisions will get made, the family will fall into chaos? :p

 

 

 

The entire car example is ridiculous. Between an SUV and a "sporty two seater" there's a clear right and wrong answer and the person who is right should "win" the argument, regardless if it's the wife or the husband. Most of the decisions that my husband and I have argued about haven't had a clear right or wrong. Both sides have good points, both choices have advantages, other choices might be possibilities- like the car example, most choices in life don't just have two options. And are much more complicated and difficult to solve than, "Well, if we got the sports car, where would the kids sit?"

[Soror]

It seems the men I've met most determined to be identified as the head are those that need to do so the least. the language I hear seems to speak to the fact that the woman is less of a person, less smart, less capable etc and that in the end the dh cannot make mistakes or something. Or women should follow regardless. I don't think we do anyone spiritual favors if we are afraid of telling them they are wrong, no one is above this. If we see how Jesus led it is nothing like leadership in the Western world(or the world he lived either), yet we take this biblical idea and try to model it after what is considered leadership in our world.

Edited July 10, 2012 by soror

[Nestof3]

Thank you for your story.

 

May I ask if he approaches you with a conscious effort to respect your opinion when otherwise he may have discounted it?

 

In what ways do you look to him for leadership, and does he look to you for leadership in any areas?

 

Does he approach you with a spirit of willingness?

 

Or are these things one-sided?

 

What I just feel so strongly is that healthy marriages are two-sided on this, and I cannot shake it. It just seems to me that husband and wife both have abilities and areas of greater wisdom and such, and a strong marriage would be one in which both treated one another with a spirit of, "You have a knack for this," "you are very knowledgeable about this," "how do you think we should do this?", etc.

 

 

:iagree: Yes! I haven't finished reading through all the resposes. I caught this on the third page and felt the need to agree. Being "head" of the house isn't about being king or making final decisions or taking charge of money. It's about...I don't know...leadership and maturity and sacrificial love. I read somewhere that a man should be the head of the house and a woman should be the heart. I don't know about "should" because every marriage has to find its own way, but for us this works.

 

I think words and phrases like "head of the house" and "submission" have been co-opted to mean something they were never meant to mean. I handle finances and make most detail decisions, but for me, viewing DH as head means that I make a conscious effort to respect him when I used to discount his opinions without even meaning to. It means I look to him for leadership. It means that I approach him with a spirit of willingness. I don't know. This paradigm has radically changed and improved our marriage (which was pretty darn good to begin with.)

 

I just think it's a shame that we see "head of the household" and immediately think boss, king, final decision maker. That's what has fed abuse of power through the centuries. For us it's about symbiosis and respect and it is really beautiful. We serve each other.

[Nestof3]

I think this would be a good time to tell you all that I am not telling anyone to change their marital model. What works for you, well, works for you. I respect the viewpoints of each person in this thread.

[Nestof3]

ETA: I also know that, in my home, my dh has the final say (usually it is a mutual decision)...but he understands that the Lord will hold him accountable for his decisions and actions for the family, not me.

 

I understand this -- I was taught the same thing for years. I'm not able to recall any verse reference for this accountability.

 

In a marriage where the headship model proves destructive, though, and the woman can rest assured that God will hold him accountable, what's to be done regarding the damage in the here and now.

 

I understand that headship also involves sacrifice (essentially, the husband should have the authority of Jesus with the same willingness to lay himself down). But, the scripture never indicates what a woman is to do if the authority is there but not the laying down. Let's say he's not overtly abusive, but he's self-absorbed and the children don't trust him as much as they should because they don't feel he genuinely cares deeply for them. None of this changes the fact that he is the head, right?

 

A woman should be able to trust that her head can choose the right house, she should be able to trust that her kids will turn out okay, right?

 

I haven't seen anyone here who says headship works great for her despite the fact that her husband is self-centered, tired of raising kids, etc. Where are the stories like these?

 

That's where the model breaks down for me. If a woman were married to a man who gave up that much, I cannot imagine much resistance from her. Of course, some women would still want to be respected for her thoughts and leadership abilities.

[tristangrace]

Do you think having the man as head makes the marriage better? (I know what the Bible says; I am asking about personal experience)

 

Do you think it makes the family better to have one head, which is the man?

 

I have heard, "If you don't have a head, who makes the final decision?" How would you answer this?

 

1. Depends on the man (and the woman).

2. Depends on the man (and the woman).

3. It is possible, some or most or all of the time, to make decisions jointly, depending on the individuals involved.

 

Those are my answers based on observation. In principle and practice, I do believe in male spiritual headship.That doesn't mean men are somehow more valuable than women. And it doesn't even mean men are better leaders than women. It means that marriage is a sacrament (a visible sign of spiritual reality), and that even though the approach to the marriage is and "ought" to be slightly different for the man and the woman, the practical outcome ought to be a virtually seamless unity.

 

I don't know how you could tell the difference between an ideal hierarchical marriage and an ideal egalitarian marriage. If there is unity and mutual love and respect, thumbs-up. If there is a lot of talk in a marriage about the power dynamics--in either a hierarchical marriage or an egalitarian marriage--something's screwy. If things are functioning in a healthy way, nobody (husband or wife) needs constant verbal reassurance of their worth and authority.

[tristangrace]

 

In a marriage where the headship model proves destructive, though, and the woman can rest assured that God will hold him accountable, what's to be done regarding the damage in the here and now.

 

I understand that headship also involves sacrifice (essentially, the husband should have the authority of Jesus with the same willingness to lay himself down). But, the scripture never indicates what a woman is to do if the authority is there but not the laying down. Let's say he's not overtly abusive, but he's self-absorbed and the children don't trust him as much as they should because they don't feel he genuinely cares deeply for them. None of this changes the fact that he is the head, right?

 

A woman should be able to trust that her head can choose the right house, she should be able to trust that her kids will turn out okay, right?

 

I haven't seen anyone here who says headship works great for her despite the fact that her husband is self-centered, tired of raising kids, etc. Where are the stories like these?

 

 

I've seen crappy marriages of all kinds. If a husband/father is selfish, the wife/children will suffer whether he's the head or not. If a wife/mother is selfish, the husband/children will suffer whether she's the head or not. I'm not saying the way the couple views authority doesn't make any difference, but I am saying that switching the model is not going to make changes in the characters of the people involved.

 

As I alluded to in my earlier post, I don't think the headship model is there for practical reasons. It's not there because it works the best; it's there as a sign/mystery/sacrament. The headship model is not a magic cure-all for sin and weakness, and if you thought it was, I'm not surprised if you are disillusioned and frustrated. If your husband is selfish, he needs to change--there's no workaround for that.