So what's wrong with Sing. 1A/1B?

[Violet Crown]

Not asking defensively - I don't have any stake in SM - but curious.

 

On the 'What's the big deal' thread, several people said Singapore 1A and 1B were not very good. Now we never used SM in the past, but Wee Girl wanted more math practice pages than Miquon could provide for her level (she sees her sisters doing math and demands the same), so we bought the SM workbooks (not textbooks) as a supplement. She loves, loves, loves doing the workbooks, and just finished 1B. We're continuing with the IP and CWP for level one while going on to the 2A workbook.

 

So far 2A looks just like level 1. Not that that's a bad thing; Wee Girl is having just as much fun. So what is this difference that others are seeing? What isn't liked about level 1? Is it a difference in the textbook, and we're not seeing it because we're using Miquon for our main math curriculum?

[Spy Car]

Not asking defensively - I don't have any stake in SM - but curious.

 

On the 'What's the big deal' thread, several people said Singapore 1A and 1B were not very good. Now we never used SM in the past, but Wee Girl wanted more math practice pages than Miquon could provide for her level (she sees her sisters doing math and demands the same), so we bought the SM workbooks (not textbooks) as a supplement. She loves, loves, loves doing the workbooks, and just finished 1B. We're continuing with the IP and CWP for level one while going on to the 2A workbook.

 

So far 2A looks just like level 1. Not that that's a bad thing; Wee Girl is having just as much fun. So what is this difference that others are seeing? What isn't liked about level 1? Is it a difference in the textbook, and we're not seeing it because we're using Miquon for our main math curriculum?

 

People trashed Miquon on that thread too.

 

Newsflash: some people are wrong :D

 

Bill

[swainsonshawk]

We are struggling with 1A right now because of the pace. My daughter just isn't getting it. But, that said, we are using Miquon right now and will go back to singapore later, after she's grown a bit!

[nansk]

I have also been puzzled whenever I read on this forum that SM 1A, 1B was bad but it gets better later.

 

We use the local version of SM (2007 syllabus) and I find absolutely no difference in the format/teaching/questions of Yr 1 v/s later years. Whenever I read the above opinion, I always assumed something was different about the US version of SM. Glad to know not everyone feels like that. :)

[LittleIzumi]

We hit a wall in the "making ten"/larger adding portion of 1A, and I've seen other people post about the same issue. We took a break, came back to it later, same issue. Turns out dd was just counting the pictures and not actually learning the math. :glare: So we're continuing with MEP and Miquon instead, and maybe a MM unit or two on specific topics. I like Singapore in general. It just doesn't work for us.

[Violet Crown]

We hit a wall in the "making ten"/larger adding portion of 1A, and I've seen other people post about the same issue. We took a break, came back to it later, same issue. Turns out dd was just counting the pictures and not actually learning the math. :glare: So we're continuing with MEP and Miquon instead, and maybe a MM unit or two on specific topics. I like Singapore in general. It just doesn't work for us.

 

I can see how that could be frustrating. Wee Girl already had a good sense of larger adding and 'breaking' a ten from playing Play Food Grocery Store with ten-rods, so we weren't trying to learn that from SM. But it has occurred to me that the workbooks keep providing visuals for each problem well after I'd think a child could start doing the problems without pictures.

[Ray]

1A & 1B were must use for both of my children...but that's probably statistically meaningless due to the sample size - two.:D

[Spy Car]

1A & 1B were must use for both of my children...but that's probably statistically meaningless due to the sample size - two.:D

 

I don't suppose bumping the sample size up to three would help much? :D

 

Bill

[Alte Veste Academy]

Three kids. Zero problems. I don't get the criticism either. I have always used the Standards Ed, with HIG. (I sometimes imagine that the people who struggled were using another edition...and no hands-on that the SE HIG is so full of. :tongue_smilie:)

[missmoe]

Four kids no problems here. We're up to a sample of 10!;)

[boscopup]

I haven't used it yet, but I've looked through it while entering it all into HST+. I don't foresee any problems for my son. The making 10s may use his brain, but with C-rods, it should be fine, since when adding over 10, he already uses a 10 rod and then finds what else goes there. My oldest needed manipulatives for that concept in first grade when he was doing Math Mammoth. Then he got it and we moved on. I could see some kids struggling with the concept until they're more mature. I can especially see 5 year olds struggling with it, which seems to be common. That's a developmental issue.

 

One thing I notice is that the same people who say 1A/1B is weak also often say you don't need the HIG for that level. I'm looking through the HIG, and I think I will definitely use it. It gives games, fact practice suggestions, mental math (which is fact practice), etc.

 

I've also noticed that the people who say it is weak are usually comparing it to RS B, which goes further with the adding/subtracting mentally. That's a scope and sequence difference, IMO, not a "weakness". I'm ok with my first grader not adding/subtracting 3-4 digit numbers in his head. Clearly Singapore gets there in grades 2 and 3.

 

1A looks like a repeat of a lot of what we did in Essential Math K, but just going deeper and working the facts more. Should be perfect for my son who is finishing up EM K this week. :D And again, we use C-rods with it. Great combo.

 

Having witnessed Saxon 1 at my oldest son's school and having used Math Mammoth 1, I think Singapore 1 (WITH THE HIG) looks quite strong, and its presentation is great for young children. The making tens is an advanced topic, and some children will struggle with it, but making manipulatives available should help immensely. I even used them for my oldest, and he typically doesn't want/need manipulatives when doing math. That's the only time he ever needed them, so clearly it was a "hard topic" for him.

[Dinsfamily]

I can add two more to that sample. No problems here.

[MissKNG]

We didn't have any problems with SM 1a/b. My big girl did very well with it and enjoyed it very much!

[ssavings]

We just found 1A dull (finished this week), but had no problems with it.

[radiobrain]

I can't understand why anyone would think 1 A/B were a problem or bad.

 

It's first grade math. It is not rocket science!

 

Another vote for We loved singapore, the whole way through! 2 kids, no issues. :D

[Violet Crown]

Thanks for all the positive input on Singapore. Though I'm still curious about what the perceived difference between levels 1 and the later levels is. Is it just that dealing with tens is less well taught than other concepts in later levels? Or that it's less ineresting?

[Crimson Wife]

I've also noticed that the people who say it is weak are usually comparing it to RS B, which goes further with the adding/subtracting mentally.

 

DING, DING, DING...we have a winner here!!!!!!!

 

Singapore 1A/B seems much less challenging overall than Right Start B, even though the higher levels of Singapore are more challenging than the higher levels of Right Start.

 

RS B covers addition up to a four digit number plus a four digit number. Singapore 1B only does addition within 100.

 

RS B covers telling time to the minute. Singapore 1B only does time to the half-hour.

 

RS B's money work is stronger than Singapore's at this level as well.

 

RS B covers perimeter, which Singapore does not touch upon at this level at all.

 

Singapore does do a lot more work with subtraction than RS B, and it briefly introduces multiplication & division, but overall 1A/B just seems less challenging in its S&S.

[redsquirrel]

Add two more kids to the list. We are finishing up 1b this week. My elder son is finishing up 6b. No worries here. And, I used the US edition along with their HIG. I've had no problem with the HIG. Plus, my kids have a VERY math deficient mother. So, if we can succeed with SM, I think most people can.

[boscopup]

We just found 1A dull (finished this week), but had no problems with it.

 

Unfortunately, this is the nature of 1st grade math. Singapore is waaaaaay more exciting than Saxon 1 and MM 1. :)

 

Also, some kids figure out first grade math on their own, so in that case, you'd want to accelerate to stuff that is "new". If they are bored with addition and subtraction, they probably already KNOW addition and subtraction. Move on!

 

RS B covers addition up to a four digit number plus a four digit number. Singapore 1B only does addition within 100.

 

RS B covers telling time to the minute. Singapore 1B only does time to the half-hour.

 

RS B's money work is stronger than Singapore's at this level as well.

 

RS B covers perimeter, which Singapore does not touch upon at this level at all.

 

 

I wouldn't expect any of this in a first grade math program. The fact that RS B contains these does not make Singapore "weak". It just says RS has an advanced scope and sequence for that level. Likewise, the fact that Singapore introduces multiplication and division in 1B does not make other first grade programs "weak" because they don't do multiplication/division. I just don't expect those topics in first grade. Singapore is advanced in scope and sequence for those topics (and that doesn't make Singapore better).

 

Now if Singapore never did clock to the minute or 4-digit addition/subtraction mental math, THEN I would say it was "weak".

 

It just amuses me that people will say Singapore 1 is weak because they used a different program that has a different S&S, then those same people switch from the different program to Singapore once other program gets boring. :lol: Meanwhile, they have possibly turned people off Singapore altogether by saying grade 1 is "weak". It's not "weak". Everything is there for a 1st grade math program, and if you do grades 1-6, you'll cover everything at a fairly deep level. I don't expect a 1st grade math program to have 3rd grade topics, and it's not "weak" because it doesn't. :blink:

[JessReplanted]

Singapore Math was absolute misery for my son. He just didn't get it. We switched to CLE and he's doing so much better. He needs all of that constant review.

[Crimson Wife]

I wouldn't expect any of this in a first grade math program. The fact that RS B contains these does not make Singapore "weak". It just says RS has an advanced scope and sequence for that level. Likewise, the fact that Singapore introduces multiplication and division in 1B does not make other first grade programs "weak" because they don't do multiplication/division. I just don't expect those topics in first grade. Singapore is advanced in scope and sequence for those topics (and that doesn't make Singapore better).

 

Now if Singapore never did clock to the minute or 4-digit addition/subtraction mental math, THEN I would say it was "weak".

 

It just amuses me that people will say Singapore 1 is weak because they used a different program that has a different S&S, then those same people switch from the different program to Singapore once other program gets boring. :lol: Meanwhile, they have possibly turned people off Singapore altogether by saying grade 1 is "weak". It's not "weak". Everything is there for a 1st grade math program, and if you do grades 1-6, you'll cover everything at a fairly deep level. I don't expect a 1st grade math program to have 3rd grade topics, and it's not "weak" because it doesn't. :blink:

 

I don't remember ever calling Singapore 1A/B "weak", just that it is the weakest part of Singapore and the later levels are much better. I know I have encouraged people not to judge the whole program by 1A/B and to at least look at the higher levels before switching to something else.

 

I would personally love a math curriculum that starts off challenging and maintains a rigorous pace and S&S. Maybe when all the levels of Beast Academy are published that will be my solution, we'll have to see. However, until that time I'm going to stick with using RS B and part of C then switching to Singapore as "spine". :001_smile:

[pitterpatter]

Hmm...don't know, but it seems to be perfect for my DD. She's been having a blast with it.

 

Wish I would have had such a "boring" math program growing up. It looks like so much fun! I'm jealous...jealous that I missed out when I was a child first learning math.

[EKS]

We found that there was a disconnect between what was taught in the book and what the student was actually expected to do. At the time we used it there was no HIG for it. I think the disconnect is probably eliminated with the use of the HIG as much of the instruction for 1A/B should be concrete and done with manipulatives.

 

Halfway through 1B, we moved to RightStart B, and then 3/4 of the way through that, we moved to Singapore 2A and never looked back.

[Dealea86]

So, question... If I'm planning to use SM with Miquon, will that provide enough manipulatives to offset not having the HIG? I'm just having a hard time justifying buying the HIGs on our limited budget....

[Miss Marple]

Add to that my 3 who used it very successfully- however we did it back in the dark ages long before US editions and IGs. Maybe the US editions were too Americanized? Got my books off the slow boat in a brown paper package wrapped up with string :)

 

Just trying to ramp up that sample size :p

[pitterpatter]

We just started 1A a couple of weeks ago. I can't imagine not having the HIG. Half or more of each lesson is in the HIG. The text/workbook stuff is just a portion of the overall lesson. DD learns the concept through the HIG and textbook. The workbook and IP allow her to practice what shes's learned. I've been impressed.

 

I'd start searching for used.

 

So, question... If I'm planning to use SM with Miquon, will that provide enough manipulatives to offset not having the HIG? I'm just having a hard time justifying buying the HIGs on our limited budget....

[blondeviolin]

Add my oldest to the group of kids it would have been fine with. It's not our spine, but we still did okay with it.

[webbeccjo]

different things work for different people. If its working for your child and she loves it- its great!! :)

[jennynd]

different things work for different people. If its working for your child and she loves it- its great!! :)

:iagree:

[BinahYeteirah]

We just started 1A a couple of weeks ago. I can't imagine not having the HIG. Half or more of each lesson is in the HIG. The text/workbook stuff is just a portion of the overall lesson. DD learns the concept through the HIG and textbook. The workbook and IP allow her to practice what shes's learned. I've been impressed.

 

:iagree:

 

I often read that people don't use the HIGs for the earlier levels and I really wonder about that. It is just first grade math, and I'm sure people find ways to explain the concepts to their children, but I'd drop the textbook before I'd drop the HIG. The main part of the lesson is in the HIG.

 

A big part of the Singapore concept as I understand it is the progression of understanding from concrete to pictorial to abstract. The concrete is demonstrated with manipulatives as outlined in the HIG. The textbook has lots of pictorial elements, but, at this level, so do the workbooks.

 

The HIG is also very good in the way it breaks the lessons down into incremental topics. Sometimes one only uses a tiny portion of a page in the textbook during a day's lesson. If I didn't have the HIG, I might assume I needed to cover at least a page or two for a day's work.

 

I am not personally familiar with Miquon, so maybe it has many of these concrete elements. I don't know if they'd line up with Singapore or not. The Singapore HIG also has a lot of ideas for games to play. Sometimes we substitute Right Start games, but the Singapore games are very good, too.

[redsquirrel]

So, question... If I'm planning to use SM with Miquon, will that provide enough manipulatives to offset not having the HIG? I'm just having a hard time justifying buying the HIGs on our limited budget....

 

Well, I've gone all the way through SM once and didn't have a HIG until 5th grade. We did just fine. I agree that the HIG are very expensive. I still don't have one for 1a and 1b. I have picked up the others used over the years. I was happy to pay full price for years 5 & 6. It hurt to buy them, but I was glad to have them.

 

I do have Miquon, but my kids don't really click with it for some reason. I want them to, but it didn't happen. They do use the rods to solve problems, but the Miquon books themselves did not grab them.

 

For year 1 in Singapore it would be handy to have a base 10 set and some counters. You can use anything for counters: pennies, pebbles, goldfish crackers. I also suggest a Judy clock, or something similar, and some coins and play money.

 

What I did do with ds2 is I used MEP year 1 alongside SM year 1. MEP is free and it was a great match. In fact, for SM 1a I would characterize it more as I used MEP 1 and used SM 1a the supplement. Right now, we are taking a break from MEP 1 to finish up SM 1b, but we will finish up the year 1 in MEP before summer.

[TracyP]

I could definitely see this if we are talking about the US edition. My dd got completely lost in the section about adding to 20/making tens. I used the TG, but it was very little help. The next sections covered things like which are circles, which is longer, taller, heavier, etc. We blew through that in a couple days and she was expected to move on to adding numbers to 40.

 

The gap between easy/hard just seemed enormous with nothing to help me bridge the gap. My experience with the 2nd level (US edition) has been completely different.

 

I always hear that people are much happier with the SE, and that the HIG's have been very much improved. I am guessing that SE users have a very different experience. I will be buying those in the future if we continue with Singapore.

[swainsonshawk]

Back to the sample size.

 

I did a lot of switching around from Singapore to other things with my oldest son. I kept coming back to Singapore, though and he finished the series. My next two had no problems with it--Singapore all the way, baby!

 

My daughter, on the other hand, is not one to whom math will be automatic. She struggled through kindergarten math with manipulatives and really never "got it", so singapore 1A moved WAY too fast. We backed up and started with Miquon (orange book) to give her more time to understand the ins and outs of math. She's getting it now and we're fully planning on moving back to Singapore because I think it's such a great program.

 

I think part of the reason I love Singapore is that I'm used to it. I know how, what it will teach my kids and I know its weakness (moving too fast) and how to deal with it.

[Spy Car]

Thanks for all the positive input on Singapore. Though I'm still curious about what the perceived difference between levels 1 and the later levels is. Is it just that dealing with tens is less well taught than other concepts in later levels? Or that it's less ineresting?

 

I have not perceived any difference between level 1 and the rest (other than the obvious issues of scope and sequence).

 

Primary Mathematics is very good at what it does, which is to methodically build up a model of whole-parts math. I think it does an extraordinary job of teaching children how to manipulate numbers, how to do mental math, and how to attack word problems.

 

But there are reasons we've use multiple math programs.

 

Miquon brings both concrete learning-though-play and a confidence/autonomy building sense of discovery to math, that (unsupplimented) the "core" Singapore books lack. Miquon also provides excellent information to teacher/parents on how to make math axioms comprehensible to children so they get an explicit understanding of mathematical laws (and how to use them) rather than the sort of implicit understanding in Singapore. The Singapore HIGs help remedy some of the deficiencies.

 

But Singapore really develops mastery and practical application of the concepts that are (brilliantly) introduced in Miquon and builds really strong skills n top of the conceptual knowledge in a methodical fashion.

 

MEP, relative to Singapore, has more consistently brain-stretching work. From the opening pages of Level 1 the children are pushed to *think*. The building of logic, reason, and cultivating algebraic thinking are unmatched. The Singapore Intensive Practice books help, but the standard problems in MEP are more "interesting" than those in the "core" Primary Math books.

 

But while MEP and PM share a whole-parts approach, the model (at least for me) was easier to see—and therefore teach—in Primary Mathematics. So I see a trade-off between a program that is very methodical in a way I can see (PM) and one that very mathematically stimulating and rich (MEP) but whose method is not as easy for me to see without using PM. Tough choice to pick only one.

 

The short answer is each program has its strengths. I see three basic goals in math:

 

1) Cultivating deep understanding of the underlying mathematics on a conceptual level.

 

2) Developing strong procedural skills in using standard algorithms, mental math strategies, and word-problem solving.

 

3) Encouraging a love of creative problem solving and feeding the mind the cognitively challenge work that encourages the brain to grow.

 

I find it takes a mix to optimize all 3 goals.

 

Bill

[Roadrunner]

Add two more kids. We haven't had a single issue with SM.

[twoxcell]

My ds started SM with 2a, but my dd used Essentials last year and is in SM 1b right now. She loves it and it is smooth sailing for her. She picks up math very easily though.

[Alte Veste Academy]

So, question... If I'm planning to use SM with Miquon, will that provide enough manipulatives to offset not having the HIG? I'm just having a hard time justifying buying the HIGs on our limited budget....

 

I use Miquon and SM. I buy the SM HIG, always. I consider them the most valuable part of the package, actually. I would be willing to bet that many (if not most) of the people who end up feeling SM is a poor fit are the ones who don't buy the HIG (or who don't use it even though they did buy it! :tongue_smilie: ). Also, the HIG is not just about manipulatives. It schedules the program, provides conceptual details and explanations, outlines conversations you should be having with your student, includes games, and more.

 

I can't imagine not having the HIG. Half or more of each lesson is in the HIG. The text/workbook stuff is just a portion of the overall lesson. DD learns the concept through the HIG and textbook. The workbook and IP allow her to practice what shes's learned. I've been impressed.

 

I'd start searching for used.

 

:iagree:

 

I'd drop the textbook before I'd drop the HIG. The main part of the lesson is in the HIG.

 

:iagree: But don't drop the textbook either! :D I am familiar with Miquon. It is wonderful and the two programs complement each other nicely. However, using Miquon does not make the SM HIG unnecessary.

[justLisa]

SM is THE only thing keeping my DD from hating math. She NEEDS to count butterflies and color. She loves working with me through the textbook, and I just allow writing/doodling/coloring/etc in all of them. The only reason I could see a kid/parent team hating SM 1st year, is if you just give it to them and expect they will have no questions. As in, lecture with the textbook, then give the work book and that is it. I did not use the HIG for year 1, but if I did not understand the process or feel able to give anything more to the program that the student books I would have. I mean, as far as the curriculum itself, I don't understand what could be wrong with it. Mental math and problem solving skills are imperative for success in the later years, so might as well start early. I WISH I would have used it for DS in grade 1, just because it illustrates the method so well in the textbook.

 

Grade 1 math takes A LOT of involvement for some kids, regardless of what you use. DS does not need manipulatives, he just gets it. DD can talk all day long and solve simple math problems, but once you put it on paper in to a math sentence she looks at it like "huh?" I think the textbook illustrations, combined with TONS of parent interaction, and then the workbook on her own has brought her to a whole new level. SHe is working in 2A now and doing very well. We did not use the workbook as much for level 1A and B, though more in B. She just did not have the maturity factor to sit and fill out a blank white piece of paper. She would rather have used it for coloring.

 

We did a lot of hands on work. Instead of the clock section, we just used a geared clock, and between DS and myself, she is telling time pretty well. I bought a nice set of Melissa and Dough realistic looking money, and we just buy things from the pantry and so forth. Also, I help them count their money at the cashier and get change. And I smile BEAMINGLY at anyone giving me looks.

[Embassy]

I've only used 1B SE and had no issues with it. It took us longer to get through than later books because we were getting used to the Singapore method and mental math strategies.

[amsunshine]

Count us as having nothing but compliments for Singapore 1A/1B (stds ed. + HIG + Intensive Practice). We love SM in general, and my elder dd is nearly finished with 6A. I'm very pleased with how Singapore has developed my dds' mathematical thinking.

[missmoe]

So, question... If I'm planning to use SM with Miquon, will that provide enough manipulatives to offset not having the HIG? I'm just having a hard time justifying buying the HIGs on our limited budget....

 

If my budget was limited, I would buy the HIG and textbook. Drop the workbook. You can always come up with your own problems for practice after using the HIG and textbook.

[LittleIzumi]

I use Miquon and SM. I buy the SM HIG, always. I consider them the most valuable part of the package, actually. I would be willing to bet that many (if not most) of the people who end up feeling SM is a poor fit are the ones who don't buy the HIG (or who don't use it even though they did buy it! :tongue_smilie: ). Also, the HIG is not just about manipulatives. It schedules the program, provides conceptual details and explanations, outlines conversations you should be having with your student, includes games, and more.

 

To be fair, I used the US edition and no HIG. Maybe it would have worked if we tried Standards and the HIG. Up to that point, she seemed fine with just the textbook/workbook.

[Alte Veste Academy]

We hit a wall in the "making ten"/larger adding portion of 1A, and I've seen other people post about the same issue. We took a break, came back to it later, same issue. Turns out dd was just counting the pictures and not actually learning the math. :glare: So we're continuing with MEP and Miquon instead, and maybe a MM unit or two on specific topics. I like Singapore in general. It just doesn't work for us.

 

To be fair, I used the US edition and no HIG. Maybe it would have worked if we tried Standards and the HIG. Up to that point, she seemed fine with just the textbook/workbook.

 

I think it is very easy for us to think our kids are doing OK and then to discover that they were not actually learning (fill in the blank) as the particular curriculum was teaching it. For me, it has happened because I inadvertently assume my knowledge base instead of their knowledge base.

 

There were several times in the first couple of years of using SM that I thought to myself how stealthy this way of teaching is. But without the HIG, it would be hard to see that intentional stealth. It's like a locomotive building steam. It's slow at first but then watch out because it's got momentum and it's hard to slow down. ;) Without understanding the stealthy, slow acceleration of skills, all you see at a certain point is that your student isn't getting it enough to move on with that curriculum and you don't know why. The HIG is a perfect example of the fact that, "We don't know what we don't know."

[Alte Veste Academy]

If my budget was limited, I would buy the HIG and textbook. Drop the workbook. You can always come up with your own problems for practice after using the HIG and textbook.

 

Honestly, if I was so limited in my budget as to prevent me from buying the three main components of SM (HIG, TB, WB), I would advise using Math Mammoth. It is a good, solid, thorough program at a rock-bottom price. I personally couldn't use it for my first two students because of their personalities, but I think it is a great program for many kids.

[Dinsfamily]

I could definitely see this if we are talking about the US edition. My dd got completely lost in the section about adding to 20/making tens. I used the TG, but it was very little help. The next sections covered things like which are circles, which is longer, taller, heavier, etc. We blew through that in a couple days and she was expected to move on to adding numbers to 40.

 

The gap between easy/hard just seemed enormous with nothing to help me bridge the gap. My experience with the 2nd level (US edition) has been completely different.

 

I always hear that people are much happier with the SE, and that the HIG's have been very much improved. I am guessing that SE users have a very different experience. I will be buying those in the future if we continue with Singapore.

 

I use US Ed. without the HIGs in 1A/1B. I started using the HIG with 2A. I didn't run into problems and I don't plan to switch it up for future dc at this point. I do use Miquon alongside SM. I also use CWP and IP (a recent addition) so that might also make a difference.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I use US Ed. without the HIGs in 1A/1B. I started using the HIG with 2A. I didn't run into problems and I don't plan to switch it up for future dc at this point. I do use Miquon alongside SM. I also use CWP and IP (a recent addition) so that might also make a difference.

 

I think it is possible to use SM without the HIG and not have these problems (although I do think the program is richest with the additions from the HIG). My point was that for the people who do have problems, those who end up leaving SM, I think it is very possible that their problems could have been avoided by using the HIG.

[Spy Car]

I think it is very easy for us to think our kids are doing OK and then to discover that they were not actually learning (fill in the blank) as the particular curriculum was teaching it. For me, it has happened because I inadvertently assume my knowledge base instead of their knowledge base.

 

There were several times in the first couple of years of using SM that I thought to myself how stealthy this way of teaching is. But without the HIG, it would be hard to see that intentional stealth. It's like a locomotive building steam. It's slow at first but then watch out because it's got momentum and it's hard to slow down. ;) Without understanding the stealthy, slow acceleration of skills, all you see at a certain point is that your student isn't getting it enough to move on with that curriculum and you don't know why. The HIG is a perfect example of the fact that, "We don't know what we don't know."

 

I think it is possible to use SM without the HIG and not have these problems (although I do think the program is richest with the additions from the HIG). My point was that for the people who do have problems, those who end up leaving SM, I think it is very possible that their problems could have been avoided by using the HIG.

 

:iagree:

 

In the words of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld:

 

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

 

Bill

[Dinsfamily]

I think it is possible to use SM without the HIG and not have these problems (although I do think the program is richest with the additions from the HIG). My point was that for the people who do have problems, those who end up leaving SM, I think it is very possible that their problems could have been avoided by using the HIG.

 

I would agree with that. I'd rather buy the HIG than switch programs and may do that if I ever have a dc who struggles with the content. I just started to use the IP because I wanted my K'er to have more practice before moving onto 1B. He's young and not quite as math-intuitive as his brother. I just didn't want people to think that the only successes are with SE.

[Alte Veste Academy]

:iagree:

 

In the words of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld:

 

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

 

Bill

 

Not to mention all the things we know we know and we're saying we don't know even though we really do know because we know you don't know anything...

 

Sorry. Rumsfeld makes me fussy. :leaving:

[Dealea86]

I think it is possible to use SM without the HIG and not have these problems (although I do think the program is richest with the additions from the HIG). My point was that for the people who do have problems, those who end up leaving SM, I think it is very possible that their problems could have been avoided by using the HIG.

 

I don't plan on leaving SM. :) Because of our limited budget, I've been acquiring the books slowly over many years (I've known I wanted to hs my children for about 10 years, even though I've only been married for 5 and my oldest is only 3). I own all the textbooks, IP, and CW through 6B. I'm working on acquiring Miquon books and SM workbooks now.

 

I guess part of me rebels at the HIGs because I was a professional tutor until DD was about 6 months old. I get that tutoring algebra, geometry, and calculus is very different from teaching 1st grade math, but I suppose my background gives me lots of confidence in teaching my children math. Why should I spend that extra money when I could probably do fine on my own?

 

I'm not opposed to buying them if I need them, but I just have a hard time believing I will need them...

 

But, no, I have no plans to leave SM if it's not working at first. We've invested enough money in it that I'm determined to make it work - even if that means buying the HIGs. ;)