Watched the IndoctriNation documentary last night...WOW!

[Georgiana Daniels]

I've read the entire thread. Wow, it is certainly a heated thread.

 

I began homeschooling for academic reasons. It was clear to me that my children would not be well-served, academically, by the public schools here. However, as a Christian, I'm glad they don't go to public school where content doesn't match our beliefs. It's 12 years of being taught content that goes against Biblical teachings that does the most damage to a child's belief system.

 

Even in homeschooling, we can mess this up. My son has a strong interest in astronomy. I wasn't able to find a high level astronomy text that had a Christian view, so I bought him a secular text thinking one book isn't going to be a problem. He now argues the secular views of how the universe was formed, how old the universe is, etc. as fact because that's how they are presented. Very rarely are the problems with those theories also presented. Very rarely are other theories presented along side so they can be compared and discussed. I'm not YE. I'm not OE. I personally don't care how old the earth is because I don't think it affects my salvation. I do care that he now sees these theories as absolute fact with no thought that they might be wrong.

 

Now if one book can influence him that much, how much would 12 years of being presented with secular ideas influence him? We all know the hot-button issues...if our children are taught that certain things are normal, ok, acceptable, correct, right, true, and/or fact for 12 years, is it not possible that our children might come to believe those things despite what we teach them in the few after-school hours left? And if those hot-button issues are acceptable everywhere except in the Bible, is it possible that he'd be influenced to leave the Bible behind, or at the very least, to cherry-pick which parts of the Bible to agree with?

 

When PPs talked about some people calling themselves Christian but not being Christian, this is what I think they were talking about. Many people call themselves Christian but they never go to church, never read the Bible, and follow lifestyles that go against much of what the Bible speaks. I'm not a talking about who has the worse sin here. I'm talking about not even attempting to follow Biblical teachings beyond checking that box.

 

:iagree:

[FiveOaksAcademy]

This, and its sister:

 

"Either Jesus is God or he was a total lunatic" are awful evangelistic tools. Not to mention they are statements of poor logic.

 

Those of us that have a non-traditional-Christian faith typically have a much more rich, in depth, nuanced, and sophisticated understanding of God and Jesus. To reduce it to "there is no neutral, either for or against" is to actually strip God of some of his better qualities.

 

 

Shame, that.

 

That's rich. Not the most mature way to defend your choices, but it is pretty telling.

[LisaKinVA]

When I was a debate coach in college, I was routinely asked why I believed thus or so. I told them why...there were some who wanted to start a debate (not really a debate, more like a brow-beating), I looked at them, smiled and said we'd simply have to agree to disagree. There were others, however, who really wanted to know why -- and after a while of back and forth, I challenged them to research it carefully from both sides (as we had been taught to do), and really look at the evidence. In this particular case, we were talking about abortion. Six months later, he came to me and told me he had completely changed his opinion on the subject. 3 years later, he became a Christian. This is just one example...

 

However, the approach I outlined above (toward my friends and colleagues) is pretty anathema within certain Christian circles. They are afraid for their children to be exposed to anything outside of what has been deemed "Christian."

 

Today's protestant exclusion (as termed by the White Paper), has set up litmus tests for Christianity that go far outside the historic doctrines of the church. Debate isn't allowed, it is shunned. We aren't allowed to even look at positions that are "anti-scriptural" -- out of fear that they will turn our high schooler's innocent heads to evil (I am speaking about NCFCA right now). Our children must be protected at all costs.

 

The indoctrination by these groups of people far exceeds what I was raised with (I thought backward masking and dancing being of the devil were ridiculous when I was a teen...as an adult I think those positions are even more ridiculous), but it is pervasive...and I would argue as insidious as anything the "world" could throw at us.

 

Remember, Satan is deceitful. Deceit does not work within the Christian faith if it is obvious. It only works if it plays on our fear or a point of agreement. Eve wasn't deceived all at once, her thinking was led through a series of simple manipulations leading her to question and disobey. Do we really think Satan has changed in his methods? Nope.

 

He comes as an Angel of Light, not some scary beast (although he can be, that's just not how he comes at Christians). Slowly, but surely he twists scripture -- until it becomes unrecognizable.

 

You can look throughout history at the atrocities of man committed in God's name, and you can see the work of Satan....using men who "sounded righteous" to his own ends.

 

The Bible is not 100% literal -- it never has been. There have always been parts that were written as allegories and parables, but that doesn't take anything away from their meaning.

 

Faith is the essence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for...but when you go to scripture and ask what does the Bible say it takes to be saved? It comes down to a simple truth: Repent from your sin, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died to pay for your transgressions. When anyone adds more to that simple truth they diminish Christ's role in salvation.

[Joanne]

That's rich. Not the most mature way to defend your choices, but it is pretty telling.

 

I phrased my post poorly. I should have added a "more rich......." understanding of Jesus than that portrayed and characterized by such pithy but not accurate statements.

 

I can only guess that is what you are reacting to - an implied comparison.

[mamaraby]

Laying this at the feet of the public schools is quite frankly ludicrous. It's simplistic, IMO, to claim otherwise as films like this one do. There was another one recently about Sunday School whose name has escaped me at the moment, but featured some of the same folks as this film. That film maker blamed Sunday School (vs family-integrated churches) for young people leaving faith. Which is it then? Sunday School or public schools?

 

Anecdotally? Both dh and I are public school graduates. We also have three Bible degrees between us - we both have BAs from a well known evangelical, conservative Christian Bible college and my dh has an MA from another Christian school.

 

Dh also has five years of paid ministry, raised Baptist, involved in Word of Life, prayed the sinners prayer multiple times as a child, and genuinely believed himself to be saved from a very early age. I believed myself to be saved around high school (again, public school). We both planned our life according to our then Christian beliefs and held many of these same beliefs as many conservatives here. Genuine belief, genuine faith (for those who might be tempted to "No True Scottsman" me...we were passionate and firm believers).

 

BUT none of that stopped us from leaving our faith behind in our 30s (and we had children at the time). It certainly wasn't that public schools that did it.

[astrid]

EXCELLENT POST!!!!

Thank you for writing it, Lisa!

 

astrid (NOT a conservative Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but it's kind of what I'd want to say if I was!)

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm actually pretty interested in Explore Evolution that is put out by Discovery Institute. I haven't poked around at Answers in Creation yet because I'm pretty unhappy with how Mr. Ham conducted himself in the past.

 

I see this has already been cleared up. The site I mentioned is actually arguing for OEC.

 

I wasn't specifically referring to Creationism. As I said, I'm neither YE or OE. I simply don't think it matters. I was thinking about other more modern issues. Our country's divorce rate. Being asked to accept homosexuality as normal, natural, and acceptable. The idea that all religions lead to the same God. The idea that believing the tenets of Christianity makes us intolerant haters.

 

I think Christians are called to love sinners and to believe that all sins are the same. Gossiping, lying, things average Christians continue to do, are sinful. I am a sinner. It is possible for me to believe that an act is sinful without believing that it makes them a worse person than me. It just is not up to be to judge other people's hearts or religion or salvation or sin. The Bible is clear on that. Not everyone holds my beliefs and I don't think I should hold them to a standard that they do not adhere to. Now, do I use discernment and not hang out with slimeballs or liars or cheaters? Of course, but those come in all walks of life. Is that making sense?

 

And God set you up to be the judge? Try reading Matthew, there's something in there about not judging. Jesus said Love your neighbor as yourself. He didn't mean your neighbor had to believe everything you do.

:iagree:

[mama2cntrykids]

Yes. When someone proposes a radical change of perspective and action, says it's for everyone, and persuades with rapid and urgent speech that the time to act is NOW, it's very prudent to stand back for a moment and say, "What you're saying kind of makes sense to me, but first, what's it to you whether or not I agree with you? What's in it for you?"

 

Well, if you are a dominionist you need the whole nation (and eventually the world) to see things like you do and let you be in charge so Jesus can come back and set up an earthly kingdom.

 

If you're a homeschool curriculum supplier and you make a living by selling materials and speaking at conventions, you need a constant source of customers/believers to keep those opportunities to speak and to sell from year to year.

 

These homeschooling sermons are merely some mens' opinions. They are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That he offers freely, no purchase required, and nothing for the preacher to gain other than the joy of watching a new disciple join the church of our Lord.

 

That's Christianity. Believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, His Grace reaches me, amazing grace, hallelujah.

 

And then, how to live a Christian life?

 

Vision Forum says, "Be like me, have lots of kids, dress this way, speak this way, read these books, go to this convention, fear these people, and hate these people. I guarantee you'll be the ones doing it right. Don't trust yourself to listen to anyone but me. Susan Wise Bauer is dangerous! But you can trust me. And hand over your credit card, this is gonna hurt."

 

Jesus says, "Follow me." He says to love your neighbor as yourself. (Oops, there go the fear and the hate.) He says to give to the poor. (Maybe shouldn't spend every dime enriching the rich, then, because you're scared he can't save your kids if you don't read or watch everything put out by the scaremongers.) He says that salvation is in no other name but His. That means you can't save your kids' souls by homeschooling them or by isolating them in a certain way. You can't world-proof your kids. You can hide them, scare them, shame them, and scar them, but you can't save them. That's the work of Someone Else.

 

AMEN! I'll say it again, AMEN!

[QueenCat]

I am Christian, and I am certain that there are particular "biblical worldviews" to which I do not want my children exposed.

 

Cat

 

Same here, or at least when they were younger. Now, they are exposed to a larger variety of both biblical worldviews and other worldviews as this enhances their understanding of the world and people around them. There is no such thing as "one" biblical worldview.

[QueenCat]

Got it. If we disagree with you, then we are apostates. Boom, my point is proven.

 

Yep.

[QueenCat]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

YOU do not get to decide who is a "real" Christian. That is God's job, and God's alone. All Christians are sinners.

[ondreeuh]

As a christian, I have always been against sending my children to public schools, the "being salt and light" thing doesn't fly with me. Paul was referring to firmly rooted ADULT christians, not young children. But after watching this film I am even MORE convicted of my decision. WOW. Just WOW!

 

It really resonated with me when one of the pastors said that if he sent his children into a muslim school, or a buddhist school that his congregation would probably boo him out of the pulpit, however sending your children to a pagan school is completely normal and no one questions it whatsoever.

 

The fact is, government schools are not just free of any religion, they are vehemently AGAINST christianity and the teachings we try to impart to our children. the 14,000 hours that are spent in the classroom CANNOT be undone by the one hour they spend at Sunday School and the few hours at night of Christian studies (which I'm sure most christian households do not spend hours each night doing)

 

My nephew is being sent to PS next year for kindergarten and I am so concerned about that. Statistically, he will NOT come out of graduation a believer. For that I am sad.

 

Well, he should come to our public school ... the school sweatshirt has "God's Country" emblazoned on the back, and it's an excused absence when the priest comes to town to bless the homes or hold a service. The artist in residence brought a gift for the community - a stained-glass cross. No separation of church and state here. :glare:

[Haiku]

It really resonated with me when one of the pastors said that if he sent his children into a muslim school, or a buddhist school that his congregation would probably boo him out of the pulpit, however sending your children to a pagan school is completely normal and no one questions it whatsoever.

 

 

I think this kind of attitude is rooted in a profound fear of people different from you, and I think it's overblown, honestly.

 

We are a minority religion. The possibility of sending my kids to a religious school is non-existent. Nothing in our society or culture supports our religious views; they are enough of a minority that are considered, in this country, to be fringe. My kids attend our religious center's children's instruction program for 90 minutes on the weekend, and we live and talk about our religion the rest of the week.

 

Christians do this, too. Most Christians in America attend public schools. Christianity is not in danger of vanishing in America. It's still solidly the majority of all people.

 

I really don't think public school is the great threat to Christianity (or any other religion).

 

I guess what I am saying is, if I had to depend on public schools to reinforce or teach my kids' religion for it to stick with them, then they never had strong belief anyway.

 

Tara

 

ETA: It's always surprising to me what certain Christians think their kids absolutely must have in order to grow up remaining Christians, when kids of a minority religion routinely do without those essentials and still grow up to retain their religious beliefs.

Edited May 15, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[Mrs Mungo]

No separation of church and state here. :glare:

 

Oklahoma recently changed its state motto from "Labor Omnia Vincit" to "Oklahoma-In God We Trust!"

[leeannpal]

I know many Christian families who have happily graduated/sent kids to public school. I don't think they would consider themselves any more or less Christian than you....

 

Christianity is not a one size fits all belief system. God calls some Christians to do one thins and others to something else entirely. Not only that, but some Christian families cannot afford to send their kids to a private Christian school or even to homeschool because both parents need to work, or there is only one parent in the household.

[leeannpal]

Honestly, I am MORE concerned about what some tout as a "biblical" worldview than I am anything else!

:iagree:The Americanized version of Christianity that I see all around me makes me wonder if we are all reading the same Bible.

[Slartibartfast]

You can read into whatever you want. But I personally know plenty of people who call themselves "christians" yet they do so many things contrary to what the bible teaches. Therefore the "statistic" you talked about being skewed could be because someone checks a box that they are christian, but in all essence they live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ.

 

You can call yourself a boy, yet your a girl, that doesn't make it true.

 

I think pride and self righteousness is a sin, just like fornication, lying and stealing.

 

:)

 

Luke 18:9-14

 

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

Edited May 15, 2012 by Sis

[leeannpal]

You sound very judgmental, I wonder what Jesus would say.

 

I don't understand why some Christians feel the need to tear each other down.

:iagree:We really need to get out of each other's business and work on our own personal relationship with God.

[KidsHappen]

I'm sort of giggling here imagining my kindergartener trying to view the alphabet and addition through a biblical lens. I send my daughter to school to learn skills and content. I teach my daughter how to think critically about what she has learned.

 

Actually not so funny in reality. My eldest dd went to the FL PS school district that was sued for it's Biblical teachings at the time it happened. She left Kindergarten not knowing her alphabet and sounds and 1st grade not knowing how to read until I taught her. She did, however, know plenty of Bible passages, stories, and songs. :glare: This was in a state that is not known for being particularly religious. I now live in the heart of the Bible belt. My small town probably has more churches that all other businesses combined and yet our PS manages to keep Biblical teachings in the churches where they belong. Quite frankly I would much prefer that people who want only their brand of Christianity taught pull their children from the school than try to force their religion on the rest of the public school population.

[Mommy22alyns]

I am Christian, and I am certain that there are particular "biblical worldviews" to which I do not want my children exposed.

 

Cat

 

 

This.

[Slartibartfast]

If you are anything other than Christian, NONE of this will make sense to you. If you are christian, I don't understand why it is all that hard to grasp that your children, if in public schools, will NOT be receiving a biblical worldview.

 

AND if you are christian, and okay with that, I have to wonder why?

 

I am a Christian, I take it as my own duty to ensure my children receive education in my faith.

 

I don't believe the schools should be educating my children in my faith nor would I wish them to. Even when my daughter attended public schools I felt that religious education was my job as a parent. I don't think that should be the duty of the public. Teachers come from all faiths and denominations, I wouldn't want them educating them in the Quran anymore than I would want them to educate from the Bible. If you do feel they should be including a Biblical worldview would you accept all faiths? Or would you be the first one storming the school when you child brings home a Mohammad coloring sheet? (yes that was a joke I realize that would also likely offend Muslims)

 

"Biblical Worldview" is a term used by groups like Focus on the Family and Answers in Genesis. I don't agree with them and even though we share a faith I would not want to live in their world.

 

Not only would I be perfectly happy if my children never received religious education in a public school, I would be angry if a teacher did attempt to teach them a "Biblical worldview" and would make a complaint to the appropriate channels.

 

I grew up in a very religious area, I don't think I had a teacher cross a line, but I guess I should ask the atheist on my FB who attended school with me and ask them if they feel the same way.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Sis

[Parrothead]

:iagree:The Americanized version of Christianity that I see all around me makes me wonder if we are all reading the same Bible.

Well.... technically we aren't. All those different translations say something slightly different in each. Not to mention the EOs have a few more books than the Catholics and the Catholics have a few more books than the Protestants.

[elegantlion]

However, the approach I outlined above (toward my friends and colleagues) is pretty anathema within certain Christian circles. They are afraid for their children to be exposed to anything outside of what has been deemed "Christian."

 

Today's protestant exclusion (as termed by the White Paper), has set up litmus tests for Christianity that go far outside the historic doctrines of the church. Debate isn't allowed, it is shunned. We aren't allowed to even look at positions that are "anti-scriptural" -- out of fear that they will turn our high schooler's innocent heads to evil (I am speaking about NCFCA right now). Our children must be protected at all costs.

 

The indoctrination by these groups of people far exceeds what I was raised with (I thought backward masking and dancing being of the devil were ridiculous when I was a teen...as an adult I think those positions are even more ridiculous), but it is pervasive...and I would argue as insidious as anything the "world" could throw at us.

 

Remember, Satan is deceitful. Deceit does not work within the Christian faith if it is obvious. It only works if it plays on our fear or a point of agreement. Eve wasn't deceived all at once, her thinking was led through a series of simple manipulations leading her to question and disobey. Do we really think Satan has changed in his methods? Nope.

 

He comes as an Angel of Light, not some scary beast (although he can be, that's just not how he comes at Christians). Slowly, but surely he twists scripture -- until it becomes unrecognizable.

 

You can look throughout history at the atrocities of man committed in God's name, and you can see the work of Satan....using men who "sounded righteous" to his own ends.

 

 

 

The bolded is the undercurrent of how many of my extended family still believe. There was also the non-so subtle fear instilled that all non-christians were somehow immoral beings who would pull you to the dark depths of Hades should you look them in the eye.

 

Christians don't own morality. Doing the right thing because you're human doesn't have to come with a deity attached to the belief.

 

I have been fortunate that many of the people that have reached in my time of need were atheist or agnostic or of a different faith than me. They did the right thing without ulterior motive except concern for me as a human being.

 

A few fitting quotes from the Dalai Lama (you can follow him on facebook):

 

"The quality of everything we do: our physical actions, our verbal actions, and even our mental actions, depends on our motivation. That's why it's important for us to examine our motivation in our day to day life. If we cultivate respect for others and our motivation is sincere, if we develop a genuine concern for others’ well-being, then all our actions will be positive."

 

"The practice of patience guards us against losing our presence of mind. It enables us to remain undisturbed, even when the situation is really difficult. It gives us a certain amount of inner peace, which allows us some self-control, so that we can choose to respond to situations in an appropriate and compassionate manner, rather than being driven by our disturbing emotions."

 

"The very purpose of spirituality is self-discipline. Rather than criticizing others, we should evaluate and criticize ourselves. Ask yourself, what am I doing about my anger, my attachment, my pride, my jealousy? These are the things we should check in our day to day lives."

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I phrased my post poorly. I should have added a "more rich......." understanding of Jesus than that portrayed and characterized by such pithy but not accurate statements.

 

I can only guess that is what you are reacting to - an implied comparison.

 

Well, you may or may not have meant it to come off as arrogant but the words struck that cord with me. It seemed so because it is not comparable nor provable. My walk or your walk with God and the richness or "sophistication" thereof just aren't something seeable by one another. It struck me as rude, insulting, and arrogant towards anyone who is a conservative, Bible-believing Christian. If you weren't targeting the group as a whole, then I misunderstood.

[kalanamak]

 

To tell kids that is fear-mongering, unkind, and dishonest.

 

Plus, I'd like kiddo to grow up in a world where there are other animals than Holstein cattle, Border Collies, Sylvester pussy cats, and Hampshire pigs.

[stripe]

If you are anything other than Christian, NONE of this will make sense to you.

 

I find the idea that only Christians could possibly understand this to be funny.

 

Are schools equally indoctrinating in Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism (multiple varieties), Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, Islam (multiple varieties), Judaism (multiple varieties), Shinto, and so forth? What about the atheists? What about Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Orthodox Christianity (multiple varieties), Unitarian Universalism, Catholicism, and any other branch of Christianity? Is the African Methodist viewpoint being explored? I once had a neighbor who wanted to tell me all about Lutheran synods. Didn't learn that in public school.

 

The idea that all non-(evangelical?) Christians are a (confused? stupid?) monolith is strange. But I guess if everyone is dismissed as a "pagan," there's not going to be much dialogue.

[Joanne]

Well, you may or may not have meant it to come off as arrogant but the words struck that cord with me. It seemed so because it is not comparable nor provable. My walk or your walk with God and the richness or "sophistication" thereof just aren't something seeable by one another. It struck me as rude, insulting, and arrogant towards anyone who is a conservative, Bible-believing Christian. If you weren't targeting the group as a whole, then I misunderstood.

 

It was meant in response to the "either Jesus is nothing or everything" stuff. My point was that many people who don't buy into a conservative Christian approach do NOT have a shallow "he was a good teacher" perspective. It truly can be more nuanced than THAT. I didn't see or mean the disrespect until you posted and I read my post again.

 

Please forgive me. I am critical of much of conservative Christianity but that was not what I meant y that post.

[butterflymommy]

My sister-- who is not particularly religious-- has always said she wishes the public schools would be more honest about the fact that they teach environmentalism as a religion. The school her children attend has all kinds of environmentalist programs and activities which would definitely look religious to a space alien peering down at us. One activity was for "getting in touch with mother earth" where volunteer instructors brought children into the woods and had then stand still and reflect on and connect to the "wood spirits" that filled the air. :001_huh:

[Bluegoat]

I'm a Christian. And I even think that ultimatly real secular education is not compatible with a religious worldview. Heck, even one form of secular education may be incompatible with another! I is impossible to know how to educate without basing it on a view of what the Good is and what it means to be human, and those are worldview issues.

 

I have no patience for movies like this though, because they say things that aren't true or generalize to make things sound more sensational. That is, they lie, and I hate it when people lie in the name of Christianity.

 

One thing is for sure, if I ever had to send my kids to public school, I would NOT want someone giving them a so-called "Biblical-worldview" that is really about 20th century American religious developments.

[butterflymommy]

btw-- someone is abusing the tag system in this thread-- how do I report it?

[FaithManor]

btw-- someone is abusing the tag system in this thread-- how do I report it?

 

 

I have NO idea...not too tech savvy. But, I can certainly see what you mean. WOW!

 

Faith

[[email protected]]

Taken care of. Thanks for the report.

 

Moderator