Do 14 yo's really read Homer and other ancient writers?

[jenniferlee]

I mean the actual translations, not retellings?

 

I was reading on the Classical Conversations website about why they do their history cycle differently than WTM and one of the reasons was to save the more difficult ancient lit. for senior year. And it seems like I remember SWB saying something about that issue in WTM.

 

So I guess I don't know what to do. We've followed the cycle so far and we're ready to do ancients with everyone (I have 5 kids) next year. My oldest will be in 9th. But I just cannot see her reading most of this stuff with any real comprehension. She reads voraciously, and loves it, but so far she's just read a few of the "regular" classics. We even tried dickens this year and it didn't go too well, so I'm a little concerned.

 

I don't want to shortchange her chances of understanding an appreciating this stuff by requiring it too early, but I don't know what other choices I have other than totally redoing our cycle somehow.

 

What has been your experience? I need real life stories here:D

 

Thanks,

Jen

[Ester Maria]

Short answer: yes, many of them really do. :)

 

However, all in its season, and for some children that age, it may be too early - just like with everything else in life.

[Muttichen]

Mine read it around 7th grade, but I used an audio book and had them follow along. That helped a lot!

[Jane in NC]

The content of many of the ancient writers greatly appealed to my son as a fourteen year old. He had no trouble reading translations of the original works, not retellings, although it does help to listen to Teaching Company lectures for context. So I would not dismiss the ability of a 9th grader to handle this material.

[CaffeineDiary]

I'm a big believer in comic-book versions of the classics for younger kids.

 

Note: not kidding.

[Beth in SW WA]

Audio versions :)

[elegantlion]

My ds will be 15 when we read ancients. We'll tackle most of the harder ones together. He'll read some aloud, I'll read some, we'll use audio on some. We've done the short retellings. In fact we read a retelling of The Odyssey again this year, he said it was too short.

 

My son is average, he's not a voracious reader, we've just applied consistent reading together over the years. We'll use Vandiver lectures to help us with Homer. I've read what we'll be studying before (currently reading Herodotus), so I have an idea on how to guide him.

 

I weighed the options of starting with Ancients vs. a lighter lit. I was not scared off by the contents of ancient lit. I want ds to have the foundation of ancients as we journey through lit and history. I am honestly excited about reading some of these with him, I can't wait for some of the conversations I know we'll have. Ds has a high comprehension and we'll use tools to help us make sure we get the point of studying these works, not just to say we did it.

 

I also wanted to wait on the more modern American lit because we tie lit into history. Ds is very interested in anything to do with Japan and has an interest in studying wars. I plan on spending a good deal of time on WWII and some of the material I want to cover is too intense for even 15, imo.

[regentrude]

Yes. My DD read Homeric epics in unabridged verse translations (we used Fitzgerald) when she was 13 and loved it. She still considers the Iliad her favorite book.

She read Herodotus, the Aeneid and a few Greek tragedies and had a great school year.

The only book she could not get into was Thukydides which we ended up abandoning.

 

We also used the TC lectures by Vandiver to give us the much needed background and deeper understanding. I can highly recommend them. Understanding Homer is not so much an issue of reading level, but more of placing the epic in the correct historic context and value system.

[lllll]

..

[Elise]

We've had a great year reading the ancients so far! It might seem intimidating in theory, but I think once you actually sit down and read a Greek play, for instance, you'll see that it really isn't as tough as it sounds. We've read Iliad, Odyssey, and five Greek plays this year so far, plus a huge chunk of the Old Testament and Gilgamesh. Sometimes my dd reads the selection alone, but often we read it together (switching off parts for the plays, for example.) While I was really sick this fall, she listened to Ian McKellan's audio recording and followed along with Odyssey. I have LOVED literature this year, and my dd has too--best year we've ever had.:001_smile:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Short answer: yes, many of them really do. :)

 

However, all in its season, and for some children that age, it may be too early - just like with everything else in life.

 

The content of many of the ancient writers greatly appealed to my son as a fourteen year old. He had no trouble reading translations of the original works, not retellings, although it does help to listen to Teaching Company lectures for context. So I would not dismiss the ability of a 9th grader to handle this material.

 

:iagree:

 

My son really enjoyed his Homer study with TOG this year. I think Hector is going to be a hero to him for a long, long time.

[angela in ohio]

Yes. My 12 yo and 14 yo read them last year (most of the WTM ancients list plus some from Omnibus.) If they have been reading quality literature up to that point, it's really not that difficult, and the story lines are engaging.

 

There was a great thread about this before. I really don't think that the ancient literature is better for older students, because that leaves you either reading the difficult (more difficult than ancients from an intellectual viewpoint, imho) modern works at a younger age or skipping them.

 

Of course, we read a LOT more literature than CC requires, so I think it's probably also just a different focus.

Edited March 2, 2012 by angela in ohio

[swimmermom3]

Short answer: yes, many of them really do. :)

 

However, all in its season, and for some children that age, it may be too early - just like with everything else in life.

 

I will vote for Ester Maria's answer, but will add that just as many 14 yos do not read those particular recommendations for the ancients' cycle. You know your child(ren) best. Please do not feel pressured to approach literature in strictly a chronological fashion.

 

FWIW - My eighth grader read all of Ciardi's translation of The Inferno and loved it. Recently, he chose to pick up A Tale of Two Cities while reading about the French Revolution. After 90 pages, he handed the book back to me saying that "he just wasn't there yet." A year can make such a difference in a student's comprehension and appreciation of a book.

[beachnut]

We're about 2/3 of the way thru my 9th grader's year of reading through Ancient-Medieval literature. He is also a voracious reader, but did not "get" or even like all of it. In fact, *I* didn’t get or like all of it, either. I’m fine with that because the idea is to expose the students to these authors/works, not to make them teenage literary experts. And there are LOTS of resources to help you in your journey (see below) and a variety of ways to “read†the books (read a modern translation of the original, listen to an audiobook version, read the children’s version, watch a documentary/movie, see a play, etc.). My DS loves comic books, so I’m just now discovering graphic novels on Shakespeare, Beowulf, etc., which we might do in addition to or instead of reading the original. (Depends on our schedule, interest and ability at this point in the school year.) Do what works best for you and your student.

 

 

Here are some general resources we used (mostly borrowed from the library) to help us BOTH understand ancient literature:

· Teaching Company lectures (selected lectures from Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition and Books That Have Made History: Books That Can Change Your Life)

· Spark Notes & Cliff’s Notes (free, online)

· Invitation to the Classics, edited by Louise Cowan & Os Guiness

· The Well-Educated Mind, Susan Wise Bauer

· Beowulf on the Beach, Jack Murnighan (not at all necessary, but a fun read on what to skip and what not to miss in the Great Books)

 

 

Specifically, here's what we did:

· Epic of Gilgamesh (Read both the children’s version and a modern translation. Used this study guide: http://www.bfbooks.com/The-Epic-of-Gilgamesh?sc=21&category=-121 & watched this free 30-minute video lecture: http://www.learner.org/courses/worldlit/gilgamesh/)

· Iliad, Homer (Spent a month or two on this one book, annotating some of it, writing about it, discussing it. Watched Elizabeth Vandiver’s excellent and detailed Teaching Company lectures.)

· Aesop's fables (A fun break in between the two epics -- short, quick, understandable.)

· Odyssey,Homer (Spent about two weeks on this one book, mostly reading a children’s version of it and reading Cliff’s Notes. We had tired of Homer & the Trojan War period by this time. Watched Elizabeth Vandiver’s excellent and detailed Teaching Company lectures. Also watched Forrest Gump and had DS write a comparison essay on these two “heroic journeys.â€)

· The Bible (DS is working on an ongoing Biblical allusions project as part of his literary analysis curriculum, IEW’s Windows to the World.)

· Mythology, Edith Hamilton (DS read independently & enjoyed it. He also read various children’s books of Greek myths from the library.)

· 5 Dialogues of Plato (Read the original, used Cliff's Notes to help w/ understanding, discussed, wrote a short paper.)

· The Republic, Plato (DS could not *get* this, so we gave up after a few attempts of reading.)

· Herodutus (Read children's version called "Herodotus & the Road to History" by Jean Bendick, plus excerpts from history text)

· Julius Caesar, Shakespeare (Watched the BBC movie on Netflix, since it tied into our study of Ancient Rome.)

· Clouds or Frogs, Aristophanes (About to read & discuss next week -- it's a short play, and it's a comedy, so it will be a nice break from the epic poetry we've been reading)

· And, depending on what else we can fit in, we’ll read The Aeneid, Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Canterbury Tales, Hamlet, etc., using the same variety of approaches as we’ve used all year.

 

Plus, we read brief excerpts of various ancient authors (Sappho, Ovid, Herodotus, Plutarch, Thucydides, Livy, etc.) in these two sources: The Norton Anthology of World Literature and from DS’s history text, Spielvogel's Western Civilization.

 

So, reading the ancients is very doable in 9th grade. You just have to pick the literary works and approaches that will best suit your student. I wanted to cover more books (but go in depth with just a few of the original texts), so we included some alternative ways to cover a greater number of books.

 

BTW, I’m sure if we waited until DS was in 11th or 12th grade, he would understand more and get more out of our ancient lit study, but I like following the chronological path for history/literature.

[jenniferlee]

Thank you all so much for your replies and encouragement. Thanks for the suggestions and resources. I love this group!

I really need to check out the whole teaching co. thing. I have it on a list on my bookmarks, but just haven't really looked into yet.

 

Also, what are some of your favorite audio versions? I love this idea. I guess I hadn't really thought of it for ancient lit. We mainly listen to hank the cowdog on tape around here:D (i have 2 little boys)

 

Also, how do I choose a translation?

 

Also, someone mentioned another discussion on this recently? Sorry about that. How would I find it.

 

 

 

Thanks!

Jen

[Jenny in Florida]

My son is 14 next month and doing what we're calling ninth grade this year. He read one book (roughly equivalent to a chapter) of the Illiad (Fitzgerald translation) and read a complete retelling. He's scheduled to read a chunk of Lives of the Noble Greeks in a couple of weeks. We've read or will read together Romeo and Juliet, Antigone, Pygmalion, Oedipus Rex, Prometheus Bound and at least portions of The Trial and Death of Socrates.

 

He "could" do more on his own, but I made the decision to read together so we could discuss as we went.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ds14 is studying Ancients this year and is loving it. We also did the Vandiver lectures on The Teaching Co. He's read Gilgamesh, Appollodorus, Sophocles etc. He is an advanced reader though.

[jenniferlee]

For those of you who read together, do you mean out loud or just you both read the same section the same week or whatever and then discuss it?

 

And how much time about do you allot for reading each day and for discussion?

[Muttichen]

One funny thing -- when my daughter had to read No Country for Old Men for AP English lit in 11th grade, I warned her it was really violent. When she was finished it, she said, "Mom, that wasn't half as bad as the Iliad!"

[Laura Corin]

Calvin did: Iliad and Odyssey plus Aristophanes and Sophocles. Reading Suetonius and Virgil now.

 

Laura

[mamato4]

Dd 13 (almost 14) read the Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, and a number of the Greek plays. The epics she liked, the plays were not her favorites but she read them and understood them.

 

As others have said, it all depends upon the child. Ds 15 read the Odyssey also but needed more help understanding parts of the book.

[Heather in VA]

I mean the actual translations, not retellings?

 

I was reading on the Classical Conversations website about why they do their history cycle differently than WTM and one of the reasons was to save the more difficult ancient lit. for senior year. And it seems like I remember SWB saying something about that issue in WTM.

 

So I guess I don't know what to do. We've followed the cycle so far and we're ready to do ancients with everyone (I have 5 kids) next year. My oldest will be in 9th. But I just cannot see her reading most of this stuff with any real comprehension. She reads voraciously, and loves it, but so far she's just read a few of the "regular" classics. We even tried dickens this year and it didn't go too well, so I'm a little concerned.

 

I don't want to shortchange her chances of understanding an appreciating this stuff by requiring it too early, but I don't know what other choices I have other than totally redoing our cycle somehow.

 

What has been your experience? I need real life stories here:D

 

Thanks,

Jen

 

We have read many from ages 12 on up without issue. They are really not as hard as it sounds. The stories are engaging, they just take a bit more effort. In fact my oldest daughter's favorite genre are the Greek Tragedies - well at least until this year when she did an elective on Russian Literature. She LOVES that.

 

I do know that there is an opinion that the topics are too s*xy and gory for jr. highers and young high school but I didn't have a problem with it.

 

Heather

[Julie in MN]

There was a great thread about this before. I really don't think that the ancient literature is better for older students, because that leaves you either reading the difficult (more difficult than ancients from an intellectual viewpoint, imho) modern works at a younger age or skipping them.

 

 

:iagree:

[mom31257]

Dd just read Fagle's Odyssey. It was long, but it wasn't very difficult. We both thought it would be very hard, but it's just a misconception.

[justamouse]

Yes. They've been reading retellings since they sat still for picture books, so it's not been a problem. I just hand it to them and we go from there.

[Mama Lynx]

My oldest read the Iliad, yes, the whole thing, in either 6th or 7th grade. I forget which. He read the Odyssey the next year. We did a full run of ancients in 9th grade, and he had no trouble.

 

My second son, newly 14, will do ancients next year, and I feel that he is well prepared and able to read the texts.

 

I think the most important thing that helped us get to this point was that I did give them difficult things to read, as soon as they were reading fluently. I let them read easy things too, but I expected them to read hard things, as best they could. It gets easier, with practice.

[Jennifer in MI]

My oldest had no problem with them. But, I do have the feeling my rising 9th grader will have to take them a LOT slower. We've done a lot of work in the early grades familiarizing them both with the stories, so they'll get the gist of the story. But, I just have the feeling that Andrew will have a harder time with them. I hope I'm wrong!

[PollyOR]

I had never read Homer, so when the 1st edition of the Latin Centered Curriculum scheduled the Iliad and Odyssey for 6th grade we jumped in and did it. I read aloud to my daughter with CliffsNotes beside me. After reading the Iliad (Butler) we discovered Vandiver's Teaching Company lectures. Those lectures along with Fitzgerald's translation of the Odyssey made the reading much more enjoyable.

 

I hope to read Homer again with soon-to-be 14yo. She's really a Pride and Prejudice type of girl, so I have no idea how this is going to go.

[angela in ohio]

Also, someone mentioned another discussion on this recently? Sorry about that. How would I find it.

 

No, don't be sorry. It was a different question, iirc, but we ended up talking about how intense modern literature can be in comparison. I can't even think of what to search for to get the specific thread, or I'd link it. The point is that I think people think of modern literature as so accessible and simple, but it's a landmine of emotional, political, social, etc. issues sometimes.

[Charles Wallace]

I mean the actual translations, not retellings?

 

I was reading on the Classical Conversations website about why they do their history cycle differently than WTM and one of the reasons was to save the more difficult ancient lit. for senior year. And it seems like I remember SWB saying something about that issue in WTM.

 

So I guess I don't know what to do. We've followed the cycle so far and we're ready to do ancients with everyone (I have 5 kids) next year. My oldest will be in 9th. But I just cannot see her reading most of this stuff with any real comprehension. She reads voraciously, and loves it, but so far she's just read a few of the "regular" classics. We even tried dickens this year and it didn't go too well, so I'm a little concerned.

 

I don't want to shortchange her chances of understanding an appreciating this stuff by requiring it too early, but I don't know what other choices I have other than totally redoing our cycle somehow.

 

What has been your experience? I need real life stories here:D

 

Thanks,

Jen

 

We're reading The Iliad right now -- the Stanley Lombardo translation, and DD is a new 11. It's very readable material; after all, it was meant to be!

[G5052]

Part of CC's structure has them reading lighter books in Challenge A and B. Most of those books are below level, but they do that because they write on them and want them to write about books that are easier. That's fine and I can see the point, but I also believe in pushing mine at bit, especially when it a book that they're reading for comprehension and discussion only.

 

So I can see if your student reads only the lighter books for A and B, you don't want to throw them into the ancient writers in 9th grade. I can also see beginning with American writers (familiar culture), British writers (similar culture), and eventually ending with ancient writers (least familiar culture).

 

If you have them reading harder books in 7th and 8th, doing ancient writers in harder translations in 9th shouldn't be a problem. I read books like that in high school. Did I fully grasp them? No, but the exposure helped me when I read them again in college. And they meant even more as I've re-read them in preparation for working with my own children.

[mamakim]

No, don't be sorry. It was a different question, iirc, but we ended up talking about how intense modern literature can be in comparison. I can't even think of what to search for to get the specific thread, or I'd link it. The point is that I think people think of modern literature as so accessible and simple, but it's a landmine of emotional, political, social, etc. issues sometimes.

 

Boy this is so true. Because we all stick on the same cycle in our family through the years, I have individual children hitting 9th grade in differing cycles, and the only one I really hate to see happen is the 4th cycle. I do assign different books when that happens. But ancients? I do think it's initially difficult for some of my children just due to the language sitting jarringly on the ear. We've had success so far here with encouraging 9th grade Ancient dc's to shut themselves in a room and read out loud, with emotion. That really helped them to get the hang of the language. Even though we've read together over the years, it seems to take a layer of self-consciousness out of the equation if they read to themselves in privacy at that age. But everyone is different - it would be cozy to be reading aloud together, too!

 

And Vandiver . . . what a jewel. Not only Homer, but love the Greek drama material as well.

[dragons in the flower bed]

But I just cannot see her reading most of this stuff with any real comprehension. She reads voraciously, and loves it, but so far she's just read a few of the "regular" classics. We even tried dickens this year and it didn't go too well, so I'm a little concerned.

 

Dickens is a lot harder than Plato! I enjoyed the antics of Socrates when I was twelve years old, but Dickens still makes me yawn. I think you can definitely find some ancient writer for any fourteen-year-old, but who it is will vary with the child's personality.

[G5052]

Dickens is a lot harder than Plato! I enjoyed the antics of Socrates when I was twelve years old, but Dickens still makes me yawn. I think you can definitely find some ancient writer for any fourteen-year-old, but who it is will vary with the child's personality.

 

I will never forget slogging through Bleak House in high school. I have a very scholarly relative who says that book is Dickens' best. I have a long, long way to go to even being able to compare them. To me they're all HARD.

 

One great thing about much of Greek and Roman literature is that it is indeed oriented toward entertainment and story-telling, so it is easier to get something out of it. My oldest is doing Ancient Lit next year, so I'm excited about getting to read them again.

[NotAVampireLvr]

I was 14. It was required reading for school. I remember more than one would think seeing as at the time I felt like I didn't understand it at all. As an adult when I saw O Brother Where Art Thou I made the connection real quick between The Odyssey in the movie (and had no prior knowledge of that before going into the movie)

[GailV]

Mine read it around 7th grade, but I used an audio book and had them follow along. That helped a lot!

 

In 9th last year we used audio books while following along in our paper copies. We ended up using various translations, although I think the audio was Fagles. We also watch the Teaching Company videos on the works.

[jenniferlee]

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

Would anyone be willing to give me a link to a favorite audio version?

 

Jen

[MBM]

All 1,000+ freshman at my son's high school spend almost one full quarter reading a translation of The Odyssey. The English teachers also teach it to any interested parents in the evening. My son is reading the Fitzgerald translation, one book per school day, along with other books and excerpts his teacher has chosen that tie into it. It's not above most 14 year olds' ability, but it's rich in detail. Great fun to read, though.

 

Many of the Greek plays are not too difficult, either.

[Melissa in CA]

I will never forget slogging through Bleak House in high school.

 

Dickens Bleak House IS hard!!! So is Our Mutual Friend. The Iliad and Odyssey are muuuuuuch easier reads in my opinion. ;)

[Lizzie in Ma]

Yes. We read them using Omnibus in 9th grade.

[Mommyfaithe]

Short answer: yes, many of them really do. :)

 

However, all in its season, and for some children that age, it may be too early - just like with everything else in life.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

My kids have been ready at different ages. Remember, everything they meet does not have to be mastered in 9th grade. They are being introduced to another world and layer of literature. In high school, I like my kids to tackle harder books so they will not be afraid to approach them later, when they are more mature and can study them more thoroughly. Some ancient texts are way too s*xually mature for my 13/14 year olds, so we read excerpts...and pass on the Herodotus until they are older:D

 

Faithe