bzymom Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Our puppy is 3 1/2 mos. old and showing aggression. UPDATE AT BOTTOM Edited February 26, 2012 by bzymom update and edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes, aggression can very much be a genetic issue, or come from prenatal issues. I remember the first time I saw this. It was an Akita puppy, about 3 1/2 months old. It was at the clinic just for daycare, sitting up at the front desk with me and the doctor's dogs. The puppy went crazy several times. I've never been freaked out by a puppy before. But I know what an agressive dog looks like, and this was it. It was like the dog wasn't totally domesticated. I talked to the owner, the doctor talked to the owner, the owner admitted she was afraid a bit, but refused to send the dog back because her kids loved it. Well...a week later her son needed plastic surgery on his face from the dog attacking him. Then she sent the dog back. If you have experience, and your gut is telling you this dog isn't right, send it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 :grouphug: I'm all for working with animals, but this sounds like a dangerous situation. I'd send it back to the breeder too. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kebo Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I would listen to your gut and return her. That much and that kind of aggression is not normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Thank you for the feedback. I am in tears here at the thought of giving her up. My kids love her, and we waited until we were all ready after the heartbreak of losing our sweet dog last summer. But I cannot imagine anything that will change this. And it makes me wonder if the breeder had issues with her that she did not share. I have emailed her. I don't even want to handle her now, and I've never been afraid of dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Thank you for the feedback. I am in tears here at the thought of giving her up. My kids love her, and we waited until we were all ready after the heartbreak of losing our sweet dog last summer. But I cannot imagine anything that will change this. And it makes me wonder if the breeder had issues with her that she did not share. I have emailed her. I don't even want to handle her now, and I've never been afraid of dogs. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I"m so sorry-- that is frightening, saddening, and bewildering all wrapped up in one. Short answer is yes, aggression can be passed along from generation to generation. Many breeds have certain lines which are known for inherent aggression. And some breeds have "rage syndromes" that are problems in that breed-- English Springer Spaniels, for instance. That said, 3.5 months (14 weeks!) is pretty early for that sort of behavior to emerge. Would you mind answering a few questions so I may understand better? What breed is she? How old was she when you brought her home (when she left the breeder?) What sort of breeder was it-- backyard, wholesaler, careful, conscientious breeder, etc. I ask not to be rude or cast aspersions, but for information..because reputable, careful, conscientious breeders would know of the existence of aggression or like syndromes in their lines. What is her diet? Sending hugs... astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 We had a puppy a while back that was waiting for his forever home sweetest little guy! Well he was running inbetween my sons legs as puppies do and he stepped on him. Total mistake. Leg wa not broke but he limped for days. We all felt just terrible. Fast forward he started growling and nipping right after now it has been a few months he has bitten several people at his forever home. I feel terrible. They will not get rid of him he is their baby but he is mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 What is her breed? Sometimes aggression is a symptom of neurological disorders...I do believe 99% of dogs can be trained..but not all 99% would fit 99% of the families out there, this one may just need a dedicated owner..not that you are not, but you just may not have the time/abilities to make it work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHowell Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes, aggression can very much be a genetic issue, or come from prenatal issues. I remember the first time I saw this. It was an Akita puppy, about 3 1/2 months old. It was at the clinic just for daycare, sitting up at the front desk with me and the doctor's dogs. The puppy went crazy several times. I've never been freaked out by a puppy before. But I know what an agressive dog looks like, and this was it. It was like the dog wasn't totally domesticated. I talked to the owner, the doctor talked to the owner, the owner admitted she was afraid a bit, but refused to send the dog back because her kids loved it. Well...a week later her son needed plastic surgery on his face from the dog attacking him. Then she sent the dog back. If you have experience, and your gut is telling you this dog isn't right, send it back. :iagree::iagree: We put down a dog recently because of aggression issues the vet and trainer thought were genetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 She is a labradoodle, which we've had before with great success. She was 11 1/2 weeks when we got her. I believed her breeder to be a careful, intelligent breeder. I researched and waited until I found one with whom I was comfortable. The puppy eats Eukanuba, which is what she was eating when we got her. The mention of rage really jolted me. That is the word I would use. Rage. Why the heck would a much-loved puppy rage, if it is not inborn? Thanks for the help, and the hugs. I so appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1GirlTwinBoys Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I would send the dog back. It's not worth the risk involved of keeping an aggressive pet. My DH is business associates with a Plastic Surgeon and I've seen some bad things of what a family pet can do to a persons face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganClassicalPrep Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 We had to give a dog back to the breeder once for aggression issues. She was almost a year old and we were all very upset. But we had been dealing with the issues since we brought her home, and finally our vet (who was an AKC board member or something?) told us that the breeder needed to take the dog back, and if they didn't he would intervene. It was that bad. So we gave her back. Very tough decision, but I'm sure it was the right one. (And if it is any consolation... soon after we found the perfect puppy. She was a member of our family for 10 years until she passed away from cancer, and one of her puppies is laying beside me as I type this. So I guess there was a plan. :D) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A lab or labradoodle acting that way screams brain tumor or genetic issue, etc. Please send her back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Labradoodles are a combination of two pretty badly overbred breeds-- Labrador Retrievers and poodles. Also, the sudden "craze" for designer doodles of all sorts has really exploded the population, and to fill waiting lists for puppies, many people who turn out labradoodles are breeding pretty indiscriminately. Rage is exactly the word, and rage syndrome can be a staggeringly dangerous outcome of close line breeding or worse. Idiopathic rage in dogs comes out of nowhere, with most often no discernible trigger. They just explode, literally. Snapping, snarling, lunging, "I want to keel you!!!" Their eyes literally glaze over. Then it's over and they're waggy and happy again. Did she settle down quickly? Honestly, I've never, ever seen behavior like you describe in a 14 week old puppy except for once-- and it was a puppy who was a "blue puppy." The only one in the litter, pretty much dead at birth, stimulated for a long time and "brought back." To this day I am CERTAIN that lack of oxygen at birth caused irreparable neurological damage, and that damage manifests itself as sudden outbursts of rage. The family and the breeder (an excellent, very well respected long-time breeder) worked tirelessly to turn things around but the pup was euthanized at 6 months. I seem to remember that he started having seizures around that age too. I wish you peace-- this can't be easy, but the behavior you describe is NOT normal, not even for the most dominant, bossy pup. It's just not. Hugs, astrid Edited February 25, 2012 by astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenL Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 No advice. I'm sorry you will have to give her back. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 YWe had a Border/Aussie cross that we finally had to put down--she had rage against other dogs and then slaughtered the chicken flock. The vet referred to her as "criminally insane". In her case, it was a case of RAD. She'd been forcibly weaned at 3 weeks and abandoned at 5 weeks. Interesting. That's why I asked how old she was when they got her. The first few weeks are so crucial. I'm sorry about your dog--- that's sad. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellers Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 A lab or labradoodle acting that way screams brain tumor or genetic issue, etc. Please send her back. :iagree: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sounds very worrisome to me. If I were in your shoes, I'd send her back to the breeder. For sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I hate to say it, but I think she needs to go back to the breeder and you should try to get a full refund, rather than another dog from the same place. This is not a training issue. I'm so sorry, but it's better to send her back right away, before your family gets too attached to her. She could do some serious damage now, but once she's fully grown, she may be too large and strong for anyone to adequately control her. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Thank you for the feedback. I am in tears here at the thought of giving her up. My kids love her, and we waited until we were all ready after the heartbreak of losing our sweet dog last summer. But I cannot imagine anything that will change this. And it makes me wonder if the breeder had issues with her that she did not share. I have emailed her. I don't even want to handle her now, and I've never been afraid of dogs. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Personally I would take her to the vet first to make sure that she did not have pain or some other reason for the behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes. I would send her back. Send her back now, before you get even more attached. :( We had the sweetest little German Shepherd mix pup, who at about 3.5 months startled our vet even. I didn't catch it myself, but the vet caught something in him right away, and said he was one to really watch carefully. He was always gentle and sweet with our family, but by 4.5 months, he was angrily lunging at anyone else who crossed his path. We had owned many other dogs before, and had never run across this. We spent a lot of time trying to train him, thinking we could train it out of him. Eventually we were paranoid to ever have anyone over to our house, and could only take him on walks during school hours when absolutely NO one else was out on the sidewalks. One day a car parked TWO BLOCKS away and a little boy climbed out. Our dog spotted him and immediately broke from his leash and attacked the little boy. It was horrible. The boy was okay, but we put our dog to sleep after that. It was one of the most heart-breaking things I'd ever experienced, especially since he was always as gentle as could be with our family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof3littles Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Personally I would take her to the vet first to make sure that she did not have pain or some other reason for the behavior. :iagree: I have a dog with fear aggression and anxiety. He was seen at a behavior clinic at a well-known veterinary school. It is a different situation than what you describe, but I would feel better consulting with a professional team. It would put my conscience at ease that I had done all I could. In the meantime though you'd have to find a way to keep the puppy away from your family so you aren't putting them potentially at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes. I've seen 6 week old puppies that were vicious. I used to work at an animal shelter. We would get entire litters of puppies dropped of by breeders for euthanasia because of bad dispositions. And these things really were terrible. The breeds we saw the most were chows and sharpeis. I did see a few terrible rottweiler pups also. (This shelter handled 6,000 new dogs a month.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amy g. Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I got a mixed breed from a shelter, and the vet told me at his 6 week appointment to put him down for aggression. I didn't, and dh has the scars on his arm to prove it. We had another dog that was perfect until she was spayed at about 2 years old. She started snapping at goats and anything that went by her. She eventually bit my neighbor. It turns out that her mother and sisters also had drastic behavior changes after surgery. She had some kind of neurological damage that affected her eyesight, which is part of why she started snapping. A labradoodle is too big of a dog to take chances with. She needs to go back to the breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunkirst Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm so sad for you, I know how it can be to anticipate that wonderful new puppy and raising her as part of your pack. My family fosters dogs, and we did have a similar experience with a 16 week old lab/pit mix. She seemed fine most of the time, but would rage with no discernable provocation. First we thought it was men, then small children (we were trying to evaluate her for her future home). Finally she lunged, snapping at our vet as the vet offered a treat. It was heart wrenching, but we couldn't recommend her to anyone and she was euthanized. Know that will find the right dog for your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 She is going back today. We are all very sad, but it is not going to get easier to do in 3 months or 3 years, and this way the breeder will work with her and try to get to the bottom of it. Worse case, she will keep her in her own home. Thank you all for your understanding and wisdom. It helped me make a difficult decision that I know I needed to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 She is going back today. We are all very sad, but it is not going to get easier to do in 3 months or 3 years, and this way the breeder will work with her and try to get to the bottom of it. Worse case, she will keep her in her own home. Thank you all for your understanding and wisdom. It helped me make a difficult decision that I know I needed to make. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: My parents used to raise show German Shepherds. They routinely watched for aggression even when the puppies were very young. There were a few over the years that were put down. They weren't taking any chances. I believe any good breeder should recognize these signs, and for that reason, if I were you, I would not get another dog from the same source. Dh and I had a beloved family cat who underwent a huge personality change. When she could no longer be trusted around small children, we had her put down. It's very hard, and I'm so sorry your kids have to go through this. But you are doing the right thing, and while they might have a hard time processing all of it now, they will understand and admire your difficult decision when they get older. :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splash Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm sorry to say I think you made the right choice. Friends had the most beautiful Goldendoodle I've ever seen. However, despite two years of training with different behaviorists nothing changed. There was just something genetically wrong with her, no one was able to help her. Friends spent thousands of dollars trying to help her and finally had to make the tough decision you are facing now. Sorry, Kimberly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm so sorry you have to return her. You're making the right decision though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelle l Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm sorry, that's really hard. I think you did the right thing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 :grouphug: You may not be ready to think about replacing her yet, but it might help a lot with missing her. I don't know if you're set on a Labradoodle, but if the breed isn't so important, you may want to go to local shelters and let them know what kind of dog you're looking for. They can keep your family in mind when they come across one they think may be a good fit. They do get puppies, but the majority are full grown. The one nice thing about a full grown dog is that you already know their personality and shouldn't get another aggressive one. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I know it was a tough decision, and I'm usually one who says to keep the dog and keep trying, but in your case, I have believed since I read your first post that this dog has issues that you will not be able to fix. I was also very worried that the dog would eventually seriously injure someone. Even a tiny dog can do a lot of damage, but a larger dog like a Labradoodle could really hurt someone. I'm so sorry you had to do it, but I truly believe you did the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I know it was a tough decision, and I'm usually one who says to keep the dog and keep trying, but in your case, I have believed since I read your first post that this dog has issues that you will not be able to fix. I was also very worried that the dog would eventually seriously injure someone. Even a tiny dog can do a lot of damage, but a larger dog like a Labradoodle could really hurt someone. I'm so sorry you had to do it, but I truly believe you did the right thing. My thoughts exactly. So sorry it turned out this way. :grouphug::grouphug: astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iucounu Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 You did the right thing. Agree with PPs about dogs sometimes having neurological damage, showing rage, being "criminally insane" etc. I also agree that good breeders will make sure that such animals aren't sold as pets (when they can tell), and accept back any with such issues, and keep the bloodline clean. This is especially important with breeds such as Akitas, which are one-person/one-family dogs to start with and extremely territorial, plus take an owner who knows how such animals can challenge for the "alpha" position. And it's not just rage, etc. or what I'd normally think of as aggression that can make an animal unfit for a family, at least one with small children. We rescued an Australian Shepherd puppy (which may have been a mix, complicating things) who engaged in excessive herding, nipping, etc. which we had no success retraining her out of. We wound up giving her away to a family friend without children, where she fits right in, after she drew blood from my son's foot. He was starting to get afraid of her, and the problems weren't resolving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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