AuntieM Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 FBI cadaver dogs have indicated a body was at one time on the floor, at the foot of a bed. But still no baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 :crying: Oh, no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Oh Gosh. I am assuming these dogs know the difference between human and other cadaver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Goodness. I saw them carrying the carpet out yesterday. Oh my. Sadness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Oh Gosh. I am assuming these dogs know the difference between human and other cadaver? As soon as the body dies, it begins decomposing though not discernable to the naked eye for a while - chemical reactions in the body. Cadaver dogs are literally dead body dogs and they are trained to find those specific odors. Sorry to be so gross! If the police used cadaver dogs as opposed to drug sniffing dogs or those trained to find the living, then this just does not look good. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 As soon as the body dies, it begins decomposing though not discernable to the naked eye for a while - chemical reactions in the body. Cadaver dogs are literally dead body dogs and they are trained to find those specific odors. Sorry to be so gross! If the police used cadaver dogs as opposed to drug sniffing dogs or those trained to find the living, then this just does not look good. Faith I was afraid of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) FBI cadaver dogs have indicated a body was at one time on the floor, at the foot of a bed. But still no baby. Oh gosh....ok, I need a link (I hope it's not Facebook). Off to find one......... I don't get how they would know this. Is Lisa was in bed with mom and maybe fell off the bed and was........I hate to even say it....but, dead. Wouldn't they scoop her up fairly quickly?? How can a dog discern that on the floor?? :confused: ETA: Here's a link. As soon as the body dies, it begins decomposing though not discernable to the naked eye for a while - chemical reactions in the body. Cadaver dogs are literally dead body dogs and they are trained to find those specific odors. Sorry to be so gross! If the police used cadaver dogs as opposed to drug sniffing dogs or those trained to find the living, then this just does not look good. Faith You mean like immediately?? :confused: Edited October 21, 2011 by ~AprilMay~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Oh no. :( I hope it's a false alarm like the "remains" that were found in the Utah desert that they thought might be Susan Powell's (but ended up being fire wood or something). That poor baby. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Goodness. I saw them carrying the carpet out yesterday. Oh my. Sadness. I've not paid attention the last couple of days, I missed that. I just happened to turn on the radio right when the news was breaking. So so sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Seems like a scenario of a drunk mom who took baby to bed and the poor thing fell off while mom was passed out, possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't have any idea if the mom is guilty or not (obviously)...but I am very frustrated that three witnesses have described seeing a man walking around with a baby, and the police are just now interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Do we know if she knows the two people who claimed to a see a mystery man carrying the baby in the early morning hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't have any idea if the mom is guilty or not (obviously)...but I am very frustrated that three witnesses have described seeing a man walking around with a baby, and the police are just now interested. That information came out the very first time the news announced Lisa's disappearance. But, at the time it was only one witness. The other night on the news they said they "discounted" that. I have no idea why. Now, it's 3 witnesses who are saying it. Maybe it was Jeremy......or Deborah's brother. :001_huh: The possibility of it all just makes me shudder. :crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Seems like a scenario of a drunk mom who took baby to bed and the poor thing fell off while mom was passed out, possibly. That's just what I was thinking. I still can't believe it took so long to figure out that she was drunk - it was the first thing I thought of when I finally sat and watched a news story about this (before the fox interview). I pray the dogs are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It seems obvious to me that Mom had something to do with it. Any normal Mom who happens to be drunk when her baby is kidnapped, says on Day 1, "I was drunk but my baby was still taken!!" To keep that secret for a week looks very bad and points to her guilt, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trresh Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The linked article said the parents had denied the police access to their house previously. Does anyone know anything about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Do we know if she knows the two people who claimed to a see a mystery man carrying the baby in the early morning hours? The article said that the husband and wife, who saw the guy w/baby, lived down the street from Lisa's house. There is a third person, who described the same guy. This third person, saw man w/baby later than the husband and wife, and was about 3 miles away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Not guilty by reason of drunkenness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I really, really hope that *this* is a good lead rather than the cadaver hit. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WagsWife Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 That information came out the very first time the news announced Lisa's disappearance. But, at the time it was only one witness. The other night on the news they said they "discounted" that. I have no idea why. Now, it's 3 witnesses who are saying it. Maybe it was Jeremy......or Deborah's brother. :001_huh: The possibility of it all just makes me shudder. :crying: The first witnesses were a husband and wife, so they were probably counted as one...but IMO should have been counted as two. The third person (man) says that he feels like he could easily recognize the man if he saw him again. Because of this, I doubt it was the husband, or brother...I am sure the cops have shown him pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The Bradleys need a swimming pool if they want a Casey Anthony defense. I mean, Bradley/Irwin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The first witnesses were a husband and wife, so they were probably counted as one...but IMO should have been counted as two. The third person (man) says that he feels like he could easily recognize the man if he saw him again. Because of this, I doubt it was the husband, or brother...I am sure the cops have shown him pictures. I read this today as well. In the past, I had only read of one witness -- today is the first that I read about three witnesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Maybe I missed something, but couldn't the baby the witnesses saw not have been alive? Ideally, the baby is alive and well and will be found. But it does seem very possible that either she's not alive and/or may not be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 An article on cnn.com also said the mom mentioned that the baby had a cough & cold the night she "disappeared." My guess? Mom was drunk, over-medicated the baby, the baby died, and mom & dad are covering it up. I hate it but nothing would surprise me anymore. It's all just so sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 As soon as the body dies, it begins decomposing though not discernable to the naked eye for a while - chemical reactions in the body. Cadaver dogs are literally dead body dogs and they are trained to find those specific odors. Sorry to be so gross! If the police used cadaver dogs as opposed to drug sniffing dogs or those trained to find the living, then this just does not look good. Faith it's what we've all feared whether we mentioned it or not. :crying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Faith, not to be TOO macabre but do you know how long it usually takes before decomp occurs? The smell cannot be instantaneous upon death. I just wonder how long the baby was actually DEAD before anyone noticed? Dad must have come home and found baby dead and Mom passed out drunk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Maybe I missed something, but couldn't the baby the witnesses saw not have been alive? Ideally, the baby is alive and well and will be found. But it does seem very possible that either she's not alive and/or may not be found. This was my first thought too...especially when I read the witness saw her in just a diaper, or so she thought. The baby, alive or not, was taken out of the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Maybe I missed something, but couldn't the baby the witnesses saw not have been alive? Ideally, the baby is alive and well and will be found. But it does seem very possible that either she's not alive and/or may not be found. In red -- excellent point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trresh Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) Faith, not to be TOO macabre but do you know how long it usually takes before decomp occurs? The smell cannot be instantaneous upon death. I just wonder how long the baby was actually DEAD before anyone noticed? Dad must have come home and found baby dead and Mom passed out drunk? I wonder who made the 2AM phone call to the brother, though. Has anyone heard what time the dad actually left work. He said he got home at 4AM but is there any evidence to prove it? There was a case around here a few years ago where a babysitter was giving the kids she watched Benadryl to sedate them and I think one of the children died. I'll have to look it up in a minute. It's sad that accidental overdose is the best case scenario if the baby is dead. I don't think the mother could ever forgive herself but for the baby it's better than being taken by some sicko. Edited October 22, 2011 by Trresh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 it's what we've all feared whether we mentioned it or not. :crying: Yep. It sucks when your gut reaction turns out to be right. I never thought that baby was alive. I think the parents have made a tragic situation into a horrific one. If they had just reported the death when it happened, there would have been consequences, but nothing like the consequences they'll have to face now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yep. It sucks when your gut reaction turns out to be right. I never thought that baby was alive. I think the parents have made a tragic situation into a horrific one. If they had just reported the death when it happened, there would have been consequences, but nothing like the consequences they'll have to face now. :iagree:I honestly would be very surprised if this child was found alive. And as stranger abduction is exceedingly rare, I'm almost positive that this child met her demise at the hands of one of her parents. Sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I wonder who made the 2AM phone call to the brother, though. Has anyone heard what time the dad actually left work. He said he got home at 4AM but is there any evidence to prove it? Maybe the mom drunk dialed? I thought I read at the beginning of this mess that the man who was Lisa's father is not the husband and that the husband is doing a tour in Iraq? Am I making that up or did I read that? Is the soldier the father of the boys? Does he get to come home and take care of his kids now? Who has the boys?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 If they had just reported the death when it happened, there would have been consequences, but nothing like the consequences they'll have to face now. I don't know, actually. If she was drunk and overmedicated her child to the point of death, then it's quite possible she'd be facing murder charges, or at least serious enough charges that she'd be in spending 15-20 years in prison. Courts generally don't take kindly to mothers who get drunk and overdose their kids. At that point, she may have felt like she had nothing to lose. Unfortunately, I do think that the extremely long prison sentences that many crimes are punished with can cause people to do reckless, wrong, very stupid things out of panic and desperation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yep. It sucks when your gut reaction turns out to be right. I never thought that baby was alive. I think the parents have made a tragic situation into a horrific one. If they had just reported the death when it happened, there would have been consequences, but nothing like the consequences they'll have to face now. I agree --my gut reaction and it does suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Seems like a scenario of a drunk mom who took baby to bed and the poor thing fell off while mom was passed out, possibly. I wouldn't expect a baby to fall out at the foot of the bed but on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And babies don't typically die just from falling out of bed, either. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And babies don't typically die just from falling out of bed, either. :001_huh: So embarassed to tell about this -- but it happened. Twins were one month old (it was Thanksgiving weekend -- the saturday of the four day holiday). teeny weeny dd fell asleep on dh's chest. DH sleeps like he is dead. DH rolled over, and teeny weeny dd fell to the floor -- fortunately, we had carpeting on the floor and our bed was not high up at all b/c I had been maneuvering in and out of it for the previous many many months. She screamed crying immediately, dh jumped up - I wanted to throttle him - it was so stupid. We scooped her up, put her in the car seat, put her twin brother in his car seat. DD20 (at the time) was home from college -- we left her with dd who was 19 mos old and rushed to the ER (it was 2am). The doctors and nurses were wonderful -- dd had stopped crying almost immediately, but she was awake. She was examined, we stayed for a couple of hours so they could observe her. DS woke up and the staff had a ball giggling and cooing with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samiam Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Embarrased to admit it as well, but all three of my children rolled off the bed at one point in their "rolling" stage. DS#1, with me, DS#2 while Grandma was watching, and DS#3 while DH was watching. Instantly horrifying, gut-wrenching, and stupid...nevertheless, all three were fine. It was a carpeted floor, but still.....I don't see rolling off a bed as cause of death, unless it was an extreme freak accident. In that case, why go to the extreme to hide it/cover it up/make up this story. No, I think it was something more/different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Mariann, that must have been so scary! :grouphug: My friend's dh dropped their baby daughter on their concrete steps! (she was not strapped into the carseat and he was carrying her up the steps.) She was LIVID with him. Baby was fine. Ohwow, that baby is 12 years old now!! :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMe Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Faith, not to be TOO macabre but do you know how long it usually takes before decomp occurs? The smell cannot be instantaneous upon death. I just wonder how long the baby was actually DEAD before anyone noticed? Dad must have come home and found baby dead and Mom passed out drunk? Yeah....my first thought is the witnesses saw a guy with a baby not wrapped because it was already dead. Funny though... I thought Dad got home around 4...woundn't it be him disposing of the baby or calling a friend to do so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Embarrased to admit it as well, but all three of my children rolled off the bed at one point in their "rolling" stage. DS#1, with me, DS#2 while Grandma was watching, and DS#3 while DH was watching. Instantly horrifying, gut-wrenching, and stupid...nevertheless, all three were fine. It was a carpeted floor, but still.....I don't see rolling off a bed as cause of death, unless it was an extreme freak accident. In that case, why go to the extreme to hide it/cover it up/make up this story. No, I think it was something more/different. Must agree. Terribly frightening -- but usually not fatal. I shudder to think what happened to that poor little baby. Mariann, that must have been so scary! :grouphug: My friend's dh dropped their baby daughter on their concrete steps! (she was not strapped into the carseat and he was carrying her up the steps.) She was LIVID with him. Baby was fine. Ohwow, that baby is 12 years old now!! :001_huh: My point exactly -- usually everything works out fine. The twins will be 11 on Monday. When I was 18 mos old, my mom sat me in my carriage and turned her back on me for a nanosecond. We were at my grandfather's bakery -- the floor was concrete. I launched myself out of the carriage -- fractured my skull. See :blink: -- I'm fine! really - I am. I think something else happened to that baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MariannNOVA Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah....my first thought is the witnesses saw a guy with a baby not wrapped because it was already dead. Funny though... I thought Dad got home around 4...woundn't it be him disposing of the baby or calling a friend to do so?[/QUOTE] It bears repeating -- there is nothing to support the timeline that the parents have put out there. It could be a total fabrication. We were told the Dad got home at approx 4am -- but who is to say that is in fact the truth, kwim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatCyndiGirl Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah....my first thought is the witnesses saw a guy with a baby not wrapped because it was already dead. Funny though... I thought Dad got home around 4...woundn't it be him disposing of the baby or calling a friend to do so?[/QUOTE] It bears repeating -- there is nothing to support the timeline that the parents have put out there. It could be a total fabrication. We were told the Dad got home at approx 4am -- but who is to say that is in fact the truth, kwim? True, but a coworker or supervisor would have likely come forth before now to say, "Hey, wait a minute, he wasn't off work at that time!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I have absolutely no evidence to support it- and I haven't read all the posts in this thread so sorry if someone else already thought of this- but I've been wondering if she gave the baby wine to get her to sleep. If she was drunk enough and trying to have a good time, and the baby wouldn't go to sleep, she might have been addled enough to fill up a bottle with wine and killed the poor thing that way. Whatever happened, the parents are definitely setting off my bs detector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama2Many4 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I will join the ranks of embarrassed moms here and add my story of my preemie son falling on his head off the couch while sleeping with me. I was holding him in my arms and fell asleep from pure COLIC exhaustion. He fell on his head and woke crying right away. I don't think that this baby died by falling off the bed, ESP at 10 months old. My son was 1 month old and had just been allowed to come home. This baby's fontanel was nearly closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaillardia Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I don't know, actually. If she was drunk and overmedicated her child to the point of death, then it's quite possible she'd be facing murder charges, or at least serious enough charges that she'd be in spending 15-20 years in prison. Courts generally don't take kindly to mothers who get drunk and overdose their kids. At that point, she may have felt like she had nothing to lose. Unfortunately, I do think that the extremely long prison sentences that many crimes are punished with can cause people to do reckless, wrong, very stupid things out of panic and desperation. I do not understand what you are trying to say.:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Maybe the mom drunk dialed? I thought I read at the beginning of this mess that the man who was Lisa's father is not the husband and that the husband is doing a tour in Iraq? Am I making that up or did I read that? Is the soldier the father of the boys? Does he get to come home and take care of his kids now? Who has the boys?!?! Okay Deborah is married to man A- the soldier, but shacking up with man B-Irwin. 1 boy is Deborah's, 1 boy is Irwin's, Lisa was both of their's. I think currently both boys are with one of the extended family. As to what happens to the boys next I don't know. I imagine that if both Deborah and Irwin are charged with this, both boys would stay with extended family until Man A can get back from Iraq to get his kid. I heard today that all troops are supposed to be home before New Year's, don't know if that is true or not but if it is than it wouldn't be long before he got his boy back. I have a feeling that reagrdless of outcome he is going to push for that, wouldn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 :( I don't even know what to think or believe. Dh would prefer I not follow the story as it is breaking my heart. I don't think I can do that, though. :crying: When our third was born, she was almost 6 weeks early. We brought her home at 2 weeks old weighing a little over 4 lbs. She was sleeping on dh's chest and he fell asleep. (He was semi-propped up on our bed.) Yup, she rolled off of him and off of the bed and hit the floor. She screamed, I cried, and dh almost fainted! She was totally fine. (Yeah, I called the pediatric ER in a hysterical panic! They told me what to look for and really, she was Ok.) My poor dh. I have never seen him so upset. He is hard as nails to rattle and boy, that totally rattled him! (She is an extremely healthy 11 year old girl now!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoforjoy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I do not understand what you are trying to say.:confused: It's not like the mom would have been thinking, if she did accidentally overdose the daughter, "Well, it was an accident, that will be taken into consideration, and so I'll just turn myself in, because if I try to cover it up, it will be much worse." I'm sure she realized she'd be facing extremely serious charges, and a whole lot of time in prison. That creates a huge incentive to do something terrible like hiding the body and making up a story about an abduction, because you know you're already facing a long prison sentence. It's like when people want to make rape punishable by life in prison or the death penalty. It sounds good in theory, but in practice all it does is give the rapist a reason to kill the victim so that they might have some chance of getting away with it. Since they're penalty won't be any higher if murder is added on, they've got nothing to lose. We think that we're helping things by upping penalties more and more, but there's no evidence to suggest it deters crime and it may, in cases like this, cause people to commit further crimes to hide evidence since they are already facing such serious charges and such long prison sentences that a few more crimes won't make much difference if they're caught and might help them, in their mind, not get caught. I'm just trying to figure out what would possess somebody to dispose of a body and make up a kidnapping, instead of just confessing to an accident. But when the accident may result in an extremely serious charge carrying a long prison sentence, people are going to do stupid, desperate things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm just trying to figure out what would possess somebody to dispose of a body and make up a kidnapping, instead of just confessing to an accident. But when the accident may result in an extremely serious charge carrying a long prison sentence, people are going to do stupid, desperate things. You're a rational person. I'm not sure that individuals in the kinds of desperate situations you're describing are thinking rationally of prison sentences. They're thinking emotionally about being found out in whatever unbelievable, unforgiveable (in their eyes) thing they've done, whether it was intentional or not. Fear of being judged as a monster, fear of the terrible thing that happened is powerful. Panic. Stupid cover-up, or "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" thinking. And once they've started down that road, there's really no going back. Think of how many times we seen or heard of a child lying blatantly in hopes they won't be found out and get in trouble. Then think how an emotionally stunted and/or chemically altered, chemically dependent adult might think in a moment of crisis. That's what I think we're dealing with, and length of prison sentence doesn't have much impact on those kinds of crimes. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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