Christians- should teenagers be spanked?

[...................]

Please NO FLAMING, or put-downs.

 

I do not believe in spanking teenagers.

 

However the pastor's wife and the other most influential woman at my church are both still spanking teenagers. The pastor's wife recently spanked her 18 year old daughter (a good kid by any standard, though she does have a bit of an argumentative side)

 

I questioned when they would stop, and they just kept quoting the bible, that the bible makes no age requirement, and says over and over that the Rod will break foolishness out of a child, and the Rod corrects, and Fathers/mothers who hate their children refuse to use the rod.

 

So I said, but ummm...teenagers aren't children. They're adults in most senses of the word.

 

My friends answered that society's 18 year old point does not define adult, that we as christians should use Biblical definitions, and that there, again, is no age requirement on the use of the Rod.

 

They say the Bible is black and white and that it's my conditioning by society to be against spanking teenagers. I point out that not only are you basically spanking an adult (they still disagreed with the use of the term adult), but it's not very effective.

 

I said that when I was a teenager I would much rather have a spanking that be grounded, or have priviledges taken away.

 

They answered, that was because my heart was selfish- only caring about myself, but when you spank a teen that is acting foolish (as in disobeying or rebellious, rude attitude to parents) that her heart will be softenened because she/he has been trained to understand that a spanking is the result of sin against God and one's parents. They say that their teen realizes "I have been acting like a child, ,and therefore my parents have given me the punishment of a child."

 

They only spank for rudeness, disrespectful attitudes, contempt, or complete disregard of previously set rules and boundaries.

 

It still doesn't sit right with me though I firmly believe in spanking, I am hoping my kids will get their last before puberty hits. I can't even imagine how ridiculous it would be to lean my 16 year old (who will be bigger than me) over the bed and spank him/her with a little wooden spoon.

 

Now, my husband says that he absolutely agrees but the spanking would look more like a whipping than a spanking and that young man or woman would think twice about dishonoring our name and our God again (think the woodshed out back in the old days)...in other words it wouldn't be a little child spanking, but a serious punishment fit for a man or woman, for a serious, serious offense of our home and our God.

 

(Edited to say I asked him about this on the phone and he said I totally misunderstood this- he was talking about Biblical caning- which was a last recourse before stoning I guess. He was basically saying you can't do that now, so it's a moot point- that spanking a teenager by the definition we mean would be totally ridiculous and the Biblcal way obviously is illegal and hopefully unnecessary anyway.)

 

Edited to add: the only arguments that would be effective to be able to articulate my beliefs would be a purely Biblical verse or example...otherwise my friends just keep referring back to the Rod verses.

[JFSinIL]

Since all my teens are far larger then me, it is a non-issue here;)

 

I would spank a young kid for stuff like running into traffic, etc. but by teenage years I think the potential for resentment etc. from trying to physically reprimand a kid is greater than any good it might do. And what recourse is there if the teen is able to, and decides to, get physical back at you? I'd stick to taking away privileges, etc.

[Marie in Oh]

I think it is humiliating and abusive. I actually have never heard of such a thing.

 

Some people just take scripture and twist it beyond its meaning. I mean really-- if we are talking cuturally in Biblical times, children were adults at 12 or 13, so their argument doesn't hold up.

 

Spanking an 18 year old? And she allowed it?? Jeesh!

[...................]

For those of us who stand on the Word of God as our guidebook to life, what's the Biblical argument against it?

 

And I'm not worried about them fighting back because they have to lean over and submit to the spanking. If they've been spanked, then by that point they've already agreed they deserve it and are leaning over in order to take the punishment.

 

The question is, biblically, is it unwise?

[...................]

that culturally children *were* adults at 13 or 14!

 

But that still not exactly an argument against it, straight from the Bible, that could convince my friends. They say, the fact is that their children are under their roof, eating their food, they are paying the kids' bills, and giving the kid counsel and advice and are therefore still by the Biblical definition children.

[beansprouts]

I don't believe the "Rod verses" address spanking at all. The "rod" was a symbol of leadership and authority. I believe the Bible is telling us to take charge of our children, but leaves it up to our judgement and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as to how we are to do so. With that said, I am not convinced that the Bible condemns spanking, but I do not buy into the assertion that spanking is Biblical mandate.

 

Joanne? :001_smile:

 

As far as this situation, I think spanking or otherwise punishing an 18 year old crosses the line. Legally she is an adult, and needs to begin making her own decisions and living her own life. I would in some cases invoke an "under my roof..." clause, where she can either choose to follow my rules or live elsewhere. However, she is beyond the age where such discipline is beneficial.

[SnowWhite]

You won't find a Bible argument one way or another.

 

However, common sense would tell you that in those days one's childhood was over by age 13 or so.

 

ETA: My respect for these individuals would be seriously diminished by this because they have proved that their method of child-rearing did not produce mature healthy God-fearing adults by age 18. I personally was a mature healthy God-fearing adult by age 15.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

No. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Matthew 7:12

 

We do not stone our children for disobedience, do we?

 

Also, if a child has accepted Christ then they are ultimately responsible to God and natural consequences should be the rule.

 

Many quote the passage that says a man who loves his children disciplines them. In my mind that means makes disciples (students, learners, or followers) not meting out physical punishment.

[elegantlion]

My parents used spankings and it ceased to be effective after about age 13. I think the time my mom tried to spank me and I laughed at her was the last time she tried.

 

While we have used spanking as a discipline of last resort, IMO, its a disclipline of instilling fear (of authority) and shame (over the action). Those are just my opinion, with no study to back that up.

 

Our previous church looked at 13 as becoming an "adult" in the church membership. There were caveats with that, however.

 

I see spanking a teenager as silly and ineffective. At that age a person should have enough reasoning skills to at least sit and listen to a healthy discussion on whatever issue has arisen. IMO, spanking would remove the learning experience, mentoring, that could take place between a child and parent.

 

I believe my job as parent is to teach my son skills that will be useful in real life. A boss will not spank you when you do something wrong. A boss will discuss it with you. Just my .02.

 

As far as biblical wisdom, it also says "Train up a child in the way that they should go..." I find that physcial punishment for discipline issues it not the way to "train up a child", IMO.

[Elaine]

Please NO FLAMING, or put-downs.

 

I do not believe in spanking teenagers.

 

However the pastor's wife and the other most influential woman at my church are both still spanking teenagers. The pastor's wife recently spanked her 18 year old daughter (a good kid by any standard, though she does have a bit of an argumentative side)

 

I questioned when they would stop, and they just kept quoting the bible, that the bible makes no age requirement, and says over and over that the Rod will break foolishness out of a child, and the Rod corrects, and Fathers/mothers who hate their children refuse to use the rod.

 

So I said, but ummm...teenagers aren't children. They're adults in most senses of the word.

 

My friends answered that society's 18 year old point does not define adult, that we as christians should use Biblical definitions, and that there, again, is no age requirement on the use of the Rod.

 

They say the Bible is black and white and that it's my conditioning by society to be against spanking teenagers. I point out that not only are you basically spanking an adult (they still disagreed with the use of the term adult), but it's not very effective.

 

I said that when I was a teenager I would much rather have a spanking that be grounded, or have priviledges taken away.

 

They answered, that was because my heart was selfish- only caring about myself, but when you spank a teen that is acting foolish (as in disobeying or rebellious, rude attitude to parents) that her heart will be softenened because she/he has been trained to understand that a spanking is the result of sin against God and one's parents. They say that their teen realizes "I have been acting like a child, ,and therefore my parents have given me the punishment of a child."

 

They only spank for rudeness, disrespectful attitudes, contempt, or complete disregard of previously set rules and boundaries.

 

It still doesn't sit right with me though I firmly believe in spanking, I am hoping my kids will get their last before puberty hits. I can't even imagine how ridiculous it would be to lean my 16 year old (who will be bigger than me) over the bed and spank him/her with a little wooden spoon.

 

Now, my husband says that he absolutely agrees but the spanking would look more like a whipping than a spanking and that young man or woman would think twice about dishonoring our name and our God again (think the woodshed out back in the old days)...in other words it wouldn't be a little child spanking, but a serious punishment fit for a man or woman, for a serious, serious offense of our home and our God.

 

Edited to add: the only arguments that would be effective to be able to articulate my beliefs would be a purely Biblical verse or example...otherwise my friends just keep referring back to the Rod verses.

 

That is just...wow.

 

I could not, in a million years, imagine my parents spanking me as a teenager, and I would never spank my children as teens. My children do not respond well to corporal punishment, they respond to loving, but firm discipline and loss of priveledges.

 

You said, "They only spank for rudeness, disrespectful attitudes, contempt, or complete disregard of previously set rules and boundaries." If they are still having those issues with their children at 18, they need to seriously re-evaluate their parenting. My oldest is 11 and I rarely have those issues with him because he has been trained and taught, not spanked.

 

IMO, they are taking the Bible out of context and using it to justify their actions. They do this as church leadership and frankly, that bothers me.

[Trivium Academy]

Spanking at that age highlights poor training and discipline but they are the parents and if they decide that this is the right course of action for them, I don't have to answer for it- they do.

[LizzyBee]

I think that spanking teenagers generally falls into the category of provoking one's children to anger (Eph.5). It's just not effective at that age and will do far more harm than good.

[Elaine]

For those of us who stand on the Word of God as our guidebook to life, what's the Biblical argument against it?

 

And I'm not worried about them fighting back because they have to lean over and submit to the spanking. If they've been spanked, then by that point they've already agreed they deserve it and are leaning over in order to take the punishment.

 

The question is, biblically, is it unwise?

 

Yes, it is unwise. The Bible tells parents not to provoke their children to wrath. I fail to see how spanking an 18 year old would not provoke them to wrath. Maybe not outwardly, but in their heart for sure.

 

You probably can't find a Biblical argument against it, but there is something called common sense.

[Kelli in TN]

I feel so strongly that the answer is no that if I were to engage in a similar conversation with church leadership, I would be leaving that church.

 

Not saying you should leave your church, just saying how I would respond to teaching like that.

 

 

I am 5'5", fat and dumpy. Sarah is 5'8", lean, quick and strong. If I were to decide to spank her I could sell tickets because it would be funnier than Vaudeville!!!!

[Marie in Oh]

I don't think the rod is spanking-- The rod was a used by a shepherd to direct the paths of his sheep. He would correct his flock when they wandered from the right path. To use the analogy for raising children, as parents we are the speherds and we are to correct our children when the wander from the right path. This can be done in many ways, not just spanking, and it definitely should be done diferently when handling chldren 10 and over. The Bible also says, "Fathers do not provoke your children to wrath." I think spanking an older child is doing just that.

[Danestress]

And if I did, I would at least honor my children, especially older children, enough to not be announcing that to all our friends and church members - or any of them, actually.

 

There is nothing about being a pastor's wife or an "influential woman" that requires trying to convince people to change discpline tactics. If you had been interested and begged for more info, that's one thing. But since you obviously aren't interested in spanking 18 year olds, it seems like they should go about their business.

 

Also, this woman probably doesn't realize it, but when she tells you (and others) that she spanks this girl, she should know that that there are many men who are going to be so turned on by that information that they will be thinking about it every time they see this girl. She will become the object of many a middle aged man's fantasy life! Spanking is a huge huge fetish area. If you do a google on spanking you will see what I mean - I'm sure every young mother who has googled it trying to find options other than spanking or trying to decide if it's what she wants to do with her kids, has been stunned by the sites that come up, lol.

[Nestof3]

It seems your mind is pretty made up on this issue already, so I'm not sure what you are asking. Would you like someone to convince you that you should be spanking your own teens, or are you looking for ways to convince this other person that she should not be spanking her own?

 

I will point out that your argument is very weak in one area -- you define your 16 year old as an adult (in most senses), yet I'm sure you are not affording him all of the decision-making power an adult has.

 

Since the Bible is silent about the age cut-off, this is just going to have to be something you and your husband decide and let others decide for themselves. I will say that the biblical evidence points to the parents still being held responsible for ignoring sin in their adult children when the children are living at home (read about Eli).

 

I will speak on a personal level here and say that I have found restrictions to be a more beneficial consequence for rebellion, but proper communication, rebuke and exhortation are very important at all ages. By the time our son turned 16, 17 and 18, there has been little need for these sorts of things anyway. Usually a little conversation gets him back on track if he starts veering on things like responsibilities or attitude. These are reminders we adult Christians need as well, aren't they? Our eldest leads a very responsibility-filled life between work and school and really doesn't have much idle time to get into trouble anyway. ;)

[Frontier Mom]

Not to get into a great theological debate, but the "rod" was used by the shepherd to gently nudge the sheep into formation. The shepherd led the sheep, the rod was used for gentle nudges and so the sheep could follow him. On cavernous crossings, the rod was used to keep the sheep from falling over the edges. What a beatiful picture of correction and discipline!

 

Although I believe in spanking young children, although I am not very comfortable with it myself and only use it as a last resort, I believe by the time a child enters the "teen" years, the description above would provide better discipline. At this point in their lives, they need to be nudged when they are about to fall off the cliff. I think as parents, we need to give them something to follow just as the shepherd does. He begins leading them when they are babies and, as they grow, they trust him to lead them to safety. I personally feel this is the approach one should take for teens. Just my $.02.

 

Also, I just got back from the home school conference in my state and heard Paul Tripp speak. He was great and stepped on my toes pretty often. I just started his book "Age of Opportunity." It is a christian perspective on raising teens. So far, he has really spoken to seeing each "issue" as an opportunity for ministry. You might want to see if you can find a copy.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Not to get into a great theological debate, but the "rod" was used by the shepherd to gently nudge the sheep into formation. The shepherd led the sheep, the rod was used for gentle nudges and so the sheep could follow him. On cavernous crossings, the rod was used to keep the sheep from falling over the edges. What a beatiful picture of correction and discipline!

 

 

 

That is a nice picture, but I've also heard people say the rod was used to fend off wild animals. Hence the term "beat the devil out of him."

 

That takes my breath away.

[...................]

on sheep and they did beat the sheep- not too bad, but they put it around their necks and pulled them, and hit them with it when they got way out. I think it's both/and.

[Quiver0f10]

I would think that in most states now a days hitting an 18 yo could bring a charge of domestic abuse. I would not spank an older chlild as I feel it's abusive and only serves to humilate them most likely leading to rebellion rather than obedience.

 

If they don't have their children under control by now( thus the "need" to spank an 18 yo), they need to take a look at themselves and see what changes they should be making.

[Joanne]

I don't believe the "Rod verses" address spanking at all. The "rod" was a symbol of leadership and authority. I believe the Bible is telling us to take charge of our children, but leaves it up to our judgement and the guidance of the Holy Spirit as to how we are to do so. With that said, I am not convinced that the Bible condemns spanking, but I do not buy into the assertion that spanking is Biblical mandate.

 

Joanne?

 

I do have lots of links and research, opinions and ideas on spanking and Christianity. But I'm not going to pull them out; it would obscure the real issue here.

 

The real issue is that spanking older children in general and teenagers/legal adults is absolutely, positively and completely inappropriate on many levels. I would seriously question any parent/family who embraced this thought.

 

Just a summary of concerns:

 

1) Coaching, guiding, discipline and admonishment needs to be applied with wisdom, grace and in a safe environment. While I believe you can be a terrific parent and include spanking as a tool in the early years, spanking should be out of the picture well before teen years.

 

2) The legalism involved with quoting rod passages justifying spanking a legal adult is creepy and speaks to other issues I'd have concerns with.

 

3) There are sexual connotations with spanking "children" of that age. I'm not saying the parents who spank are getting sexual thrills or that is what motivations them. I *am* saying that applying adult hands on near adult bottoms in a forceful manner IS a sexual/body violation.

 

4) The family dynamic that needs to be in place for this to happen has to be, by definition, not completely well (at best).

 

I would not only be concerned for this family, I'd leave this church without question.

[Old Dominion Heather]

That is just...wow.

 

I could not, in a million years, imagine my parents spanking me as a teenager, and I would never spank my children as teens. My children do not respond well to corporal punishment, they respond to loving, but firm discipline and loss of priveledges.

 

You said, "They only spank for rudeness, disrespectful attitudes, contempt, or complete disregard of previously set rules and boundaries." If they are still having those issues with their children at 18, they need to seriously re-evaluate their parenting. My oldest is 11 and I rarely have those issues with him because he has been trained and taught, not spanked.

 

IMO, they are taking the Bible out of context and using it to justify their actions. They do this as church leadership and frankly, that bothers me.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Great minds, once again!

[...................]

obscuring the original issue. Your post was also helpful. Unfortunately I really love these people, warts and all, and I don't know that I'd be ready to leave over lack of wisdom in this area. What i wish is that I could change their minds.

[Tracey in TX]

Spanking a child is not the same thing as spanking a young adult. It IS abusive by any standards, and does not teach lessons which the parents hope to convey.

Argumentative? She's 18y/o and discovering her own set of opinions and should be able to grow as a woman without physical repercussion. As I read your post I sensed an odd similarity between the extremist Muslims harming women because they would not behave according to their expectations.

I hope someone 'knocks some sense' into your pastor and his wife (cliche, not literally!) and encourages them to appropriately handle their daughter before they have an all-out rebellion, or worse, squash her spirit.

[Jugglin'5]

Well, I am definitely a spanker, but I agree with what previous posters have said...By spanking a teenager you are provoking your children to wrath, and if you have to spank a teenager, you haven't disciplined them very well to begin with.

[Elaine]

That is a nice picture, but I've also heard people say the rod was used to fend off wild animals. Hence the term "beat the devil out of him."

 

That takes my breath away.

 

Have you read the book, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 by Philip Keller? The author is a shepherd and he presents, from a Christian viewpoint, how shepherds treat their sheep and how this relates to us as Christians and the Good Shepherd. It is really interesting.:001_smile:

[hmschoolmom22]

I do not believe in spanking...at all, at any age.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Have you read the book, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23 by Philip Keller? The author is a shepherd and he presents, from a Christian viewpoint, how shepherds treat their sheep and how this relates to us as Christians and the Good Shepherd. It is really interesting.:001_smile:

 

Yes, I have read it. It is a beautiful book. I even gave a copy to my father. :001_smile:

[Pamela H in Texas]

I rarely have those issues with him because he has been trained and taught, not spanked

 

I think this is the direction I would go with them (only if they were asking though as I don't believe people should butt in unless asked).

 

This is the direction I've often gone with other parents. Usually, we're talking about a young child, but it's been along the lines of, "if you are finding yourself punishing daily, weekly, etc, then there is something lacking in the discipline."

 

Now, these people aren't doing it so often, but I can tell you that my daughter extremely rarely needs ANY sort of redirection/correction, much less punishment. I did all the teaching, guiding, training, coaching, etc when she was little (which is outlined in MANY verses in the Bible) so as to have her be able to be self-disciplined, self-controlled, accountable to God, etc by this time.

 

If these people have other children, they may want to reevaluate the route they've taken because it's questionable how well it "worked."

[Brindee]

that we as christians should use Biblical definitions, and that there, again, is no age requirement on the use of the Rod.

 

They say the Bible is black and white and that it's my conditioning by society to be against spanking teenagers.

The Bible also says, "If thy hand offend thee, cut it off. If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out." Since the Bible is black and white, are they also doing that?

 

I'm not meaning that rudely! I just think they're picking and choosing what is black and white to fit what they want to do!

 

Also telling someone else, basically, "If you don't believe what I do, then you are a selfish, sinful person" REEEEEAAALLLLY rubs me the wrong way!

 

This just doesn't sound right to me!

[nancypants]

Um, absolutely NOT. We too have known someone who spanked their 18 year old (son)... for getting caught smoking. :banghead: Never been so POed at another parent in my life!

[*anj*]

CT--

I really can't read all of the posts right now, so I'm just commenting based on your OP.

I think that this is morally reprehensible, illegal, and unprofitable. And those are my milder comments.

 

These women are abusing the Scripture in the way they misinterpret it.

There is no such thing as "spanking" an 18 year old. When you "spank" an adult, it is called battery. And one of the scariest things about that practice is that they are setting their daughter up to be abused by a man. She has been told that when she does something wrong, the only way to correct her is through hitting her.

 

I am not against the spanking of children up to a certain point, but I think that the window of acceptability is quite small. Once children reach the age of reason I think that they are better off being disciplined in other ways. And all discipline...all of it...must be administered with the heart in mind. You must always look to touching their heart. If this kind of spanking "worked" for them they wouldn't still need to do it at age 18. This girl has been abused and is now responding in a passive/aggressive manner.

 

I'll stop now because I don't know if I'm even making sense, but I have one more thing to tell you: Run. Run, don't walk. Do not pass "Go." Do not collect $200. Get away from that church. I don't say things like that lightly. If the pastor's wife is telling you such erroneous things, and he stands by while that happens in his home, everything else that he says is suspect. I would be sitting in another church this Sunday if I were you.

[*anj*]

Unfortunately I really love these people, warts and all, and I don't know that I'd be ready to leave over lack of wisdom in this area. What i wish is that I could change their minds.

 

{Gently said}

The fact that you love them isn't really relevant here. What you are describing goes far beyond "warts and all." "Warts and all" describes someone who is perpetually late, or who is sometimes inconsiderate, or who lost something they borrowed and never replaced it. This is not just something small to ignore. This is more than a lack of wisdom in one area.

 

You will never change their minds.

There is nothing you can say to convince them.

There is no Scripture that will make them rethink their position.

You are a sweet young woman with young children. These women have raised children through the teen years and into young adulthood. They will not listen to you. They see themselves as the Titus 2 women who are training the younger ones. You will not influence them.

 

I think I have to bow out of this thread because it is really, really upsetting me.

[*anj*]

. The barmitzfa (I have no idea how to spell this and neither does my computer)

 

It's Bar Mitzvah. :)

[TXMomof4]

No. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Matthew 7:12

 

We do not stone our children for disobedience, do we?

 

Also, if a child has accepted Christ then they are ultimately responsible to God and natural consequences should be the rule.

 

Many quote the passage that says a man who loves his children disciplines them. In my mind that means makes disciples (students, learners, or followers) not meting out physical punishment.

 

I completely agree. While we do spank, that is a punishment, which is part of discipline. Discipline = training, not automatically spanking. And certainly not an older child/adult.

[lwilliams1922]

my preteen refused to do her chores one day. She tried being disrespectful.

 

My husband a former law enforcement officer gave her the talk about responsibility again. Then he called the police.

 

They explained what happens to disrespectful teens that do not learn responsibility. She tried to tell them that we threatened to hit her.

 

The officer told her that spanking is legal in the state and we would have the right to.

 

 

I dont spank the kids once they can reason and respond to consequences. My toddler would get sent to time out. She does get spanked for bitting the preteen though. I'm not even sure this is effective has she continues, she doesn't bite ANYONE else though.

 

I do think every kid has a currency. Once you establish what it is then make that the consequence for behavior issues.

[Kelli in TN]

my preteen refused to do her chores one day. She tried being disrespectful.

 

My husband a former law enforcement officer gave her the talk about responsibility again. Then he called the police.

 

They explained what happens to disrespectful teens that do not learn responsibility. She tried to tell them that we threatened to hit her.

 

The officer told her that spanking is legal in the state and we would have the right to.

 

 

I dont spank the kids once they can reason and respond to consequences. My toddler would get sent to time out. She does get spanked for bitting the preteen though. I'm not even sure this is effective has she continues, she doesn't bite ANYONE else though.

 

I do think every kid has a currency. Once you establish what it is then make that the consequence for behavior issues.

 

We tried this once. We honestly thought the police would come have a talk with our child.

 

We found out that once the police are involved the parents lose all of their authority over the situation.

 

We ended up in a very scary place within the juvenile court system.

 

I am glad it played out better for you. We ended up sending our child out of state for awhile to shake loose of the juvenile court system. It was an absolute nightmare.

[LND1218]

I don't have any verses for not spanking a teen. The Bible does say not to exasperate your children. And I think spanking a teen could do that.

 

I don't think discipline should be humiliating the goal is not to embarass them but restore them to right behavior. (On a side note, since many have stopped spanking they have turned to humiliating to discipline. To me that is sad.)

 

I agree with Joanne.

 

And I don't think that you will be able to change their mind. If you aren't ready to leave this church, I would pray that God would change their hearts on this matter.

[Jackie in AR]

{Gently said}

The fact that you love them isn't really relevant here. What you are describing goes far beyond "warts and all." "Warts and all" describes someone who is perpetually late, or who is sometimes inconsiderate, or who lost something they borrowed and never replaced it. This is not just something small to ignore. This is more than a lack of wisdom in one area.

 

You will never change their minds.

There is nothing you can say to convince them.

There is no Scripture that will make them rethink their position.

You are a sweet young woman with young children. These women have raised children through the teen years and into young adulthood. They will not listen to you. They see themselves as the Titus 2 women who are training the younger ones. You will not influence them.

 

I think I have to bow out of this thread because it is really, really upsetting me.

 

I completely agree.

 

You've received many good responses in this thread as to why this behavior is wrong. The path that your church leaders have chosen is the one that they will attempt to mentor you towards. It would be impossible for me to sit under the teachings of people who believe this is acceptable.

[dangermom]

Others on this thread have said it better than me--but I think that spanking a young adult is bizarre, creepy and counter-effective. And completely against Scripture as well (I agree with the rod as loving discipline, not spanking).

 

We have spanked our children a few times, but very rarely, and after they turn about 5 I consider them to be too old for it. I don't expect to ever spank them again.

[Joanne]

Unfortunately I really love these people, warts and all, and I don't know that I'd be ready to leave over lack of wisdom in this area. What i wish is that I could change their minds.

 

I agree with Anj. What is being described, done and the rhetoric that surrounds it speaks to more than "lack of wisdom in this area". I think it speaks to deep and pervasive dysfunction.

 

And legalistic, graceless, punitive Christianity.

 

I hope their minds are changed as well. But, quite honestly? Those kids have suffered by this thinking regarding parenting and will have lasting ramifications.

[Elaine]

Please NO FLAMING, or put-downs.

 

I do not believe in spanking teenagers.

 

 

Now, my husband says that he absolutely agrees but the spanking would look more like a whipping than a spanking and that young man or woman would think twice about dishonoring our name and our God again (think the woodshed out back in the old days)...in other words it wouldn't be a little child spanking, but a serious punishment fit for a man or woman, for a serious, serious offense of our home and our God.

 

 

I read your post again and this jumped out at me. You say you don't believe in spanking teenagers but your husband does. The term "whipping" really has me bothered and I am a little concerned that it doesn't bother you. I am trying to say this as gently as I possibly can, I really am.

 

We don't live in the old days and we certainly don't whip children or adults. It's an archaic way of thinking. The Bible tells us to not provoke our children to wrath and I can pretty much guarantee that whipping someone would cause them to feel wrath.

 

I respect that you are trying to raise your children to be productive members of society. Children who are polite and well-mannered. I get it. But I can tell you this, the Bible also says that it's the goodness (kindness) of God that leads to repentance. You will get a lot further with some good old fashioned grace and mercy.

 

I am not trying to tell you how to raise your children, but I think that you need to take a long hard look at the affect that these people are having on the way that you parent your children.

[RebeccaC]

Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

 

 

Colossians 3:21

Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart.

 

 

 

Of course they can get around these verses by stating that they are the mother but I think I would reply that what is good for the gander is good for the goose. An 18 year old is a legal adult and I think I would bring up the subject of domestic abuse and the fact that the mother could be charged with battery and assault.

[RoughCollie]

Spanking an 18 year old is a battery, and it is against the law. A battery is any unwanted touching, and I could make a strong case that an 18 year old who is spanked doesn't want that to happen. Permission granted? No! Years of fear and intimidation by the parents equals coercion. No mentally healthy adult would willingly submit to that.

 

The law defines an 18 year old as an adult.

 

Do these people have no respect for the law?

 

They'd better hope no one who is not in their circle of secrecy tells the police about this. I would guess they don't think that will happen because, outside of the circle, they are operating in secrecy and they already have their adult children cowed.

 

Here's a little bit about a recent case that involved the death of a small child:

 

"Sean's death cast a spotlight on controversial evangelical minister Michael Pearl, who coaches parents to raise docile, God-fearing children. Lynn Paddock had turned to Pearl for help.

 

Some of the Paddocks' other children may be called to testify about life in the home. The newspaper said the testimony would be about disciplinary tactics that resulted in bruises from beatings with plastic plumbing pipes."

 

http://www.fayobserver.com/article_ap?id=122951

 

People who wave a Bible around and claim it allows abusive behavior disgust me. Note: All spanking does not fall into the abusive category -- but spanking an adult child certainly is, and so is spanking that leaves bruises and welts on a child. Don't think so? Read a bunch of court cases about abuse and you'll find that if you are prosecuted for doing that, you'll probably go to prison.

 

Personally, I would leave that church.

 

RC

[Jami]

I personally don't think I would be in a church where legalism and adversarial relationships between parents and children were modeled by the pastor and others in leadership. I know my own weaknesses, and nothing has helped me as a parent more than surrounding myself with and sitting under pastors and teachers who teach grace, discipleship, and genuinely delight in their children. I personally could no longer respect my pastor (since this is his wife and he probably condones not only the punishment but public discussion which is incredibly shaming for his daughter) and would probably leave the church. Though it's doubtful I would have been drawn to a church leaning toward legalism and punitive parenting in the first place. And I say this as someone who spanks, though very seldom after age 4 or 5.

 

This just makes me so sad...when I think of the amazing pastors I've learned from and the deep amazing love they have for their daughters, and their daughters for them. I just can't imagine....

[Jami]

I am not trying to tell you how to raise your children, but I think that you need to take a long hard look at the affect that these people are having on the way that you parent your children.

 

I very, very much agree with you, Elaine. I can't imagine that there aren't other incredibly controlling, legalistic parenting ideas being taught that can absolutely poison a parent-child relationship. If I were that 18 year old girl, generally well-behaved (though, how silly is that, as though she's 10, she's an adult) and my parents shamed me in this way...I'd be out of there so fast their heads would spin, and if my dad as the pastor made me think THIS is what the church and a relationship with Christ was about, I'd probably leave that behind too.

[Elaine]

and if my dad as the pastor made me think THIS is what the church and a relationship with Christ was about, I'd probably leave that behind too.

 

 

Yes.:iagree:

[OnTheBrink]

You will never change their minds.

There is nothing you can say to convince them.

There is no Scripture that will make them rethink their position.

You are a sweet young woman with young children. These women have raised children through the teen years and into young adulthood. They will not listen to you. They see themselves as the Titus 2 women who are training the younger ones. You will not influence them.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

If you're wanting Godly women to mentor you in child-rearing, I think you may have to look elsewhere.

 

I'm also a bit concerned that your dh agrees with whipping (as he put it) a young adult.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

This may sound extreme, and I don't mean to sound unloving, but it seems on the surface that this family may have a culture of abuse in their home. I'm guessing that the mother was probably beaten as a child, and may even still be "spanked" (aka: knocked around) by her husband, in the name of God. Obviously, I don't know these people, or what goes on in their home. But, if this is true, then the daughter has come to think that this is normal, and probably knows that she's in for much worse abuse if she doesn't "submit" to the spanking. If I'm right, then that girl will go on to either rebel against her parents and the church, and maybe even God, or she will marry someone who was raised just like she was, and will treat her with disrespect and possibly abuse her and her children. She will stand by and watch it happen because she believes it's God's will.

 

I don't know what you should do about the situation, or if there is anything you could do. At the very least, though, please don't let them mentor you in parenting.