S/O from "Fomer Home schooler" thread

[Aelwydd]

Ok, there is a lot of agitation on the other thread regarding whether or not home schooling is being affected by the overall decline in education in the US.

 

I would like to get more thoughts and clarification on this.

 

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results?

[kiana]

I actually don't believe it's true for 'most adults' -- but I do think that educational achievement has stayed pretty similar while qualifications and grades have increased.

[Jenny in Florida]

It's so hard to tell. What I can say is that I am often surprised at the things that adults younger than I am do not know. That is true here, as well. And I'm always surprised and saddened at the increasing inability to figure out how to do anything without a box or an expert. That is a tendency I seem to see much more in people who are 15 or more years younger than I am.

 

However, what it impossible to tell is how much of that gap is there simply because those folks have less life experience. In other words, if you plunked 25-year-old me down next to someone who is now 25 and set us to solving a problem head to head (or comparing book lists or whatever), would I still win that pretend competition? I kind of think I might, but we have no way to know for sure.

 

Edit: Which thread prompted this question? I'm curious now.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Jenny in Florida

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Aelwydd]

No. That's a ridiculous and incredibly arrogant assumption that I was totally shocked to see on these boards.

 

 

What part of the above premise is ridiculous and arrogant? That educational levels as a whole may have declined in the US? Or that such a decline might affect the home schooling community as well as the mainstream?

[Tap]

 

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? No, I think that different generations know a lot about different things. In the 1920's average people didn't have a full reference library available to them at their fingertips in book form (home libraries), on a computer or on an iPhone. My kids know about the presidents, but I don't drill it into them like it was done to my father in the 1930's. If they want to know when Johnson was in office, they can look it up quickly and easily. They don't need to remember every fact, to have it available for recall 'in case they need it'. I also believe that there is a lot more for our kids to know now, that they didn't have to know in previous generations. I still teach my kids to do basic sewing and cooking from scratch. I still teach my kids to use a paper dictionary...but they also need to know, how to make purchases online (ordering clothes), how to select a healthy heat and eat meal or get quality fast food, and to search a term online. I want my kids to be able to know the information exists and if they don't recall the details, they know how to get them anyways.

 

 

Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? Educationally prepared for what? That is too broad. The our kids know a lot that other generations didn't know, and visa versa. They know what is relevant to the time we live in. It is the kids who played video games in the 70-80s who are designing iphones and surgical robots now. What our kids do for play now, will fuel future generation's inventions and technological advancements. Education isn't just about basic math skills...it is about building a life's worth of knowledge and the application of that knowledge. For the robotic engineer, knowledge of the 15the president has little real world applications. But, for the same person, playing with Lego Robotics as a kid may lead to revolutionary inventions. Most importantly, it is a person's ability to either recall knowledge or their ability to know where to go to get it! ie I am not an plumber, but I have Googled instructions on how to make small repairs and done so myself. My 'education' of knowing how to Google and the real time knowledge of how to use a monkey wrench, made it possible for me to repair a faucet. My 'education' did not include plumbing...but it did include 'knowing where to look for information'.

 

If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results? Yes, my kids education isn't just based on knowing who was the first president of the USA. My kids education involves a lot of 'where' to get information and knowing how to use the information once the get it.

.

[Aelwydd]

Tap, really good answers. I have been thinking about how the Age of Information has really changed not only how we learn, but what we learn.

[angela in ohio]

I think it's hard to generalize, because it depends more on SES and the specific school. I had a fabulous education at a small public school in the late 80s and early 90s, but I know many people my same age who feel like they had a horrible education. And I know young people now who are getting fabulous educations (in private schools) around here.

 

I've seen research that says that the education level of homeschool parents doesn't affect outcome, but I think that only applies to "what did they formally comlete." When you look at how well the parent was educated in high school, notjust whether they have a high school degree, I think it would matter more.

 

Many homeschoolers have little idea what is going on in schools, so I don't think it would be a large influence on what parents expect in their homeschools. If anything, I see a tendency to assume that nothing is taught in any schools, so homeschooling will always be superior. But i don't see many homeschoolers really tuned in to what the current standards are.

Edited September 21, 2011 by angela in ohio

[dangermom]

I had a fabulous education at a small public school in the late 80s and early 90s, but I know many people my same age who feel like they had a horrible education. And I know young people now who are getting fabulous educations (in private schools) around here.

So true. I got a rotten education in the same era, and the public high school here is definitely better than the one I went to. I'm hoping to give my kids a better foundation than I got so they will be better prepared for college and for life.

 

But I don't think that, say, my mother (who is very educated) is better-educated than I am. We have slightly different pools of knowledge. And she also struggled with a terrible high-school education.

[VinNY]

I know the younger homeschool Mothers with advanced degrees are attracted to WTM to fill in the empty pieces of their education and their children's in this informational age. Mainly how to write well and argue a position using logic not emotion, to have cultural literacy and to know their history well.

 

There is a place and a right reason for memorization and rote learning that may be missing in today's visually stimulating world. Why do all the elite private schools that produce the children of the power brokers in the world still use a model based on classical education? Why aren't they filling their course schedules with mundane subjects like video technology?

 

My neighbor's 28 yr old son is a teacher in the PS middle school. He is shocked how much has changed in 10 years with the students. These kids can't communicate unless it is texting.

 

Can younger homeschool moms from this background homeschool successfully? Yes! I spent years in TV English 33 years ago and wanted better for my children. Give them a classical education and follow WTM or another script. Learn as you go and work hard.

[Joker]

I think it's an interesting question. Only one of my four grandparents graduated high school and went to college yet they were all very bright. One grandfather dropped out in third grade to work but he was intelligent and supported his family very well.

 

I think my grandparent's education was better than that of my parents and I think my own education was better than my parents. My mom and dad couldn't help us with school work and always seemed surprised by what we could do.

[BarbecueMom]

Ok, there is a lot of agitation on the other thread regarding whether or not home schooling is being affected by the overall decline in education in the US.

 

I would like to get more thoughts and clarification on this.

 

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results?

 

As a 20-something, I'd say we're equally educated, but less refined. High culture, in general, is frowned upon and viewed as intellectual snobbery. There are some very bright young people who advertise themselves as idiots because that is what is socially accepted.

[Tap]

As a 20-something, I'd say we're equally educated, but less refined. High culture, in general, is frowned upon and viewed as intellectual snobbery. There are some very bright young people who advertise themselves as idiots because that is what is socially accepted.

 

:iagree: When I was in high school, I was teased due to my vocabulary. I immediately dumbed my vocabulary down, and started using a lot of slang on purpose to fit in.

[Nscribe]

Far more people are choosing to homeschool today and even with the recession it seems the numbers continue to grow. I am not sure it is possible to make many blanket statements about homeschool today.

 

The growth is such that you have people who were homeschooled now dealing with their children's education.

[Joanne]

I think possibly yes. However, I posted that knowing that each generation has the propensity to view younger generations through skewed and skeptical lenses. Our (US/Western) history is replete with quotes predicting doom because of the decline in character, values, ethic, or education of the current young generation.

 

My Rhetoric and Comp students each gave a short presentation today, and each one chose a topic related to proving they are not stupid, doomed, under-educated, etc. because they (have cell phones, use Facebook, play video games, play role playing games, or are "skater").

 

In one of my settings, (school where I teach), I see a lot of reason to hope. In my other teen setting, not so much.

[Tigger]

Honestly?

 

I think the bell curves are going to apply no matter the generation you look at - from one side to the other, there are going to dumb-as-rocks adults and OMG-way-intelligent adults on the other.

[FaithManor]

:iagree: When I was in high school, I was teased due to my vocabulary. I immediately dumbed my vocabulary down, and started using a lot of slang on purpose to fit in.

 

 

This is sooooooo true! Our "honorary daughter" left her k-8 classically educating Lutheran school at 13 for the local public high school and was on the receiving end of tremendous isolation, verbal abuse, and the like because her manner of speech and interaction were so mature. Even the teachers called her an intellectual snob...sad to say, she communicated much better than many of the adult educators. She "dumbed down" her interactions in order to be accepted. By the time she graduated, speaking and writing in an immature fashion with a very limited vocabulary was her new "norm". She graduated with a 3.87 with a competitive looking transcript and earned a full scholarship to a local uni, but our homeschool grad has tutored her these past two years to keep her from flunking out of College Writing, English Lit, World Civ, and Speech. As a college junior, she is almost back to the level of writing skill she possessed as an 8th grader from the private school. Sigh :001_huh:

 

Culturally, many peer groups put intense pressure on kids to present themselves in an almost "punk" fashion. Cool is a greater goal than academic achievement.

 

Faith

[Aquinas Academy]

Are parents less educated? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the education parents recieved at school really matters. What does matter is their motivation level.

When my eldest was elementary school age I stayed up for hours learning logic, writing, Greek, and science in order to be prepared for middle school. When she got to middle school I was teaching myself high school subjects. Now that she's a high schooler, I'm researching universities. I try to always stay one step ahead.

Education is extremely important to me. Mine wasn't praticularly good, and I'm willing to work hard to give my children something better. I sometimes wonder if others are willing to do the same. As a society, we don't like to work hard. We praise people for what they can do rather than pushing them for more. I'm not saying this is always bad, but sometimes I think we could all do with a kick in the butt.

If you want your children to have a good education then educate yourself. Yes, it's hard work and takes time, but it's worth it. If you're not willing to do the work, you won't get the results.

[MeaganS]

I don't know if education has declined in the last 15-20 years. I am a 20-something myself, one of those "younger" homeschoolers, although we're not homeschooling yet. I was public-schooled all the way through. I also moved a lot an attended 12 different schools from K-12.

 

My experience was that the quality of education was drastically different depending on the school, so you really can't make sweeping generalizations. I do think, though, that there have been statistics to show that level of education of the parent doesn't greatly correlate with homeschooling success. So I think that this line of thinking is false.

 

Most of my friends are very conscientious new parents who research and think very carefully about decisions that previous generations took for granted. I have more friends than my parents did who use midwifes, cook healthily, and look into all the educational options for their kids and these are just a few examples. Most of my parents' generation, or at least those I knew, didn't think twice about most of these things.

 

As a side-note, I'd like to say that not all younger people are idiots, and there are quite a few of us on this board who are as capable of parents and home-educators as the rest of you, if that is any proof as to the future of homeschooling.

 

ETA: I realize that most of you weren't saying that we are idiots, these conversations just often devolve into a "kids these days" mentality that I think is false.

Edited September 21, 2011 by MeaganS

[justamouse]

I'm not that isolated and I have a lot of interaction with local teachers and students.

 

I am wholly unimpressed.

 

My daughter (yes, yes, I speak of her often) comes home from school with a new anecdote every day on how new student's educations are getting worse and worse.

 

Last year, as a teacher's aide, she had to define words for the students almost every day. She said the girls she knows seem to take pride in being dumb.

 

I just took some classes with some public school teachers this past month and what they expect out of their grades are so very low in comparison to what I expect.

 

I know that my own education was much better than that of my own brother, who graduated 8 years after me. And we went to the same school.

[angela in ohio]

As a 20-something, I'd say we're equally educated, but less refined. High culture, in general, is frowned upon and viewed as intellectual snobbery. There are some very bright young people who advertise themselves as idiots because that is what is socially accepted.

 

Excellent point. I see this, too.

[KungFuPanda]

Ok, there is a lot of agitation on the other thread regarding whether or not home schooling is being affected by the overall decline in education in the US.

 

I would like to get more thoughts and clarification on this.

 

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results?

 

 

I DO wonder if homeschooling is affected by how relatively easy it has become to homeschool. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the kids who gave homeschooling a good name in the eyes of college administrators are those who home schooled in a diffent era. When I think of the legal hoops and academic scrutiny people went through 20 or 30 years ago, I do wonder what type of homeschoolers would get weeded out by that process.

 

I know that doesn't quite address the original question, but it would explain why homeschoolers, as a group, could grow less academically impressive over time. If you add the commonly held assumption that negligent homeschooling is considered superior to good schooling, you can see where there might be a quality control problem in the making.

[Mothersweets]

.

 

Great points, Tap, tap tap. Hmmm, not sure where the actual quoted post went?

[MIch elle]

 

Many homeschoolers have little idea what is going on in schools, so I don't think it would be a large influence on what parents expect in their homeschools. If anything, I see a tendency to assume that nothing is taught in any schools, so homeschooling will always be superior. But i don't see many homeschoolers really tuned in to what the current standards are.

 

:iagree:

 

I've been substitute teaching for the school year 2010-present, and I'm REALLY surprised by the high level of reading, math, and writing in the elementary school & up. They also have strong basic science, history and grammar instruction too. I believe it has to do with the MA state standards and the high level of expectations of the school in my town.

 

School standards are rigorous in MA whether it's public or private schools (I have a son in each).

[WeeBeaks]

A hard one honestly. I am concerned with what I see as a decline in the writing ability of people my generation or slightly younger. I do not see that they have less of an education, but I do see they perhaps have less of an ability to accurately present themselves in written form. I saw this very strongly when I was a higher level manager in a company where 90% of the workforce worked in a remote (home-based) setting. Nearly all communication was written, and the writing skills of some were lacking quite a bit. I personally do not think IQs are any lower. In fact, I read in two sources recently that IQ levels on the whole worldwide have been rising approximately 10 points per generation as an average.

 

I'm theorizing that this writing decline might be due to texting, facebook, social media, blogs, everything snippets online, which is very different from the more formal writing of generations past (letter writing daily for a lot of people, reading longer books, longer works). That is honestly out of my area of expertise though to come to lots of conclusions on that.

 

The homeschoolers we interact with though generally have better educated parents that I see as a group whole. I'm also living in an area where the percentage of degree-holding adults is much higher than the national average itself, so that probably skews what I'm seeing also. I live in an high tech area located within miles of four large universities. The demographic here is wildly different from what I experienced living in other areas of the country.

[Rosie_0801]

Liping Ma said that, generally speaking, the bottom third of a class become teachers. While I've never seen actual data to support that, if we accept that as more or less true, what do we have?

 

The bottom third of pretty good is alright.

The bottom third of alright is rather ordinary.

The bottom third of rather ordinary is pretty crappy.

The bottom third of pretty crappy is woeful.

The bottom third of woeful shouldn't have been passed at all.

 

Even if this isn't true, I don't think anyone is going to argue that those at the top of a class are regularly becoming teachers.

 

I'm not certain, but I'm inclined to think this might be what has happened, generally speaking. I also think society trains people, in various ways, to believe in, follow and not question experts. I don't think that is a modern phenomenon by any means, but it doesn't contribute to critical thinking. Neither does the trend I found at uni, where critical thinking meant finding negative things to say. There is something to both black and white hat thinking.

 

Rosie

Edited September 21, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Kirch]

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? No, I think that different generations know a lot about different things. In the 1920's average people didn't have a full reference library available to them at their fingertips in book form (home libraries), on a computer or on an iPhone. My kids know about the presidents, but I don't drill it into them like it was done to my father in the 1930's. If they want to know when Johnson was in office, they can look it up quickly and easily. They don't need to remember every fact, to have it available for recall 'in case they need it'. I also believe that there is a lot more for our kids to know now, that they didn't have to know in previous generations. I still teach my kids to do basic sewing and cooking from scratch. I still teach my kids to use a paper dictionary...but they also need to know, how to make purchases online (ordering clothes), how to select a healthy heat and eat meal or get quality fast food, and to search a term online. I want my kids to be able to know the information exists and if they don't recall the details, they know how to get them anyways.

 

 

Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? Educationally prepared for what? That is too broad. The our kids know a lot that other generations didn't know, and visa versa. They know what is relevant to the time we live in. It is the kids who played video games in the 70-80s who are designing iphones and surgical robots now. What our kids do for play now, will fuel future generation's inventions and technological advancements. Education isn't just about basic math skills...it is about building a life's worth of knowledge and the application of that knowledge. For the robotic engineer, knowledge of the 15the president has little real world applications. But, for the same person, playing with Lego Robotics as a kid may lead to revolutionary inventions. Most importantly, it is a person's ability to either recall knowledge or their ability to know where to go to get it! ie I am not an plumber, but I have Googled instructions on how to make small repairs and done so myself. My 'education' of knowing how to Google and the real time knowledge of how to use a monkey wrench, made it possible for me to repair a faucet. My 'education' did not include plumbing...but it did include 'knowing where to look for information'.

 

If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results? Yes, my kids education isn't just based on knowing who was the first president of the USA. My kids education involves a lot of 'where' to get information and knowing how to use the information once the get it.

 

You make some valid points. I would definitely agree that knowing how and where to find knowledge is essential in today's world and probably more important than knowing lots of detailed info off the top of your head.

 

The thing is, though, it seems like we're seeing not just a lack of knowledge of the details, but an appalling lack of any kind of contextual knowledge, especially with regard to history. It's one thing not to know the exact dates or battles of the civil war, but from what I've seen/read, many students today can't even correctly place it in the overall context of American history. We're really good at the here and now--so much so that we seem to have succumbed to a kind of tunnel vision that thinks that "here and now" is all there is, was, and will be. I think that's a problem. If we as a society lose the ability to orient ourselves in terms of our "place" in time and history, we not only lose the hard-learned lessons of the past, but we also lose the ability to accurately look to and prepare for the future. So I think that we may (as a society) be throwing the baby out with the bathwater; memorizing details may not be so important (although I would argue that even now, memorizing details has value), but general knowledge is essential.

 

That same mindset affects other disciplines as well--why bother with algebra or physics or grammar or whatever if we can get through today without it? And people in general may be able to get by without it, but at what cost in the end? Someone pointed out in a post yesterday (Aelwydd, I think) that a populace without critical thinking skills is easily deceived and led. A strong general knowledge base--a general understanding of the way the world is, why it is the way it is, and the way it works--is the context in which we use those critical thinking skills.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Kirch

[SeekingHim77]

This is sooooooo true! Our "honorary daughter" left her k-8 classically educating Lutheran school at 13 for the local public high school and was on the receiving end of tremendous isolation, verbal abuse, and the like because her manner of speech and interaction were so mature. Even the teachers called her an intellectual snob...sad to say, she communicated much better than many of the adult educators. She "dumbed down" her interactions in order to be accepted. By the time she graduated, speaking and writing in an immature fashion with a very limited vocabulary was her new "norm". She graduated with a 3.87 with a competitive looking transcript and earned a full scholarship to a local uni, but our homeschool grad has tutored her these past two years to keep her from flunking out of College Writing, English Lit, World Civ, and Speech. As a college junior, she is almost back to the level of writing skill she possessed as an 8th grader from the private school.

 

Culturally, many peer groups put intense pressure on kids to present themselves in an almost "punk" fashion. Cool is a greater goal than academic achievement.

 

Faith

 

My daughter is only 9 but other kids already ask her why she talks funny because she uses such big words. She speaks very naturally-she just doesn't use much slang and has an extensive vocabulary. I know some people who talk like walking computers and wanted to clarify.

 

My dad was a highschool teacher over 30 years ago. When he lost his job about 6 years ago and went back to teaching, he found it incredibly depressing. Even his algebra honors class didn't know their stuff and needed constant reminders of how to do basic math. He couldn't stand it for more than a year. He wanted to teach the students the basics so that they could truly learn algebra but his hands were tied because he had to teach to the FCAT instead. He came away from that experience as a staunch supporter of homeschooling.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Melanie32
added to post...again

[Mama Geek]

One more thing to throw into the mix here is that during my grandparents generation it was more normal for kids to only have a 6th or an 8th or a 10th grade education. These kids for the most part were able to work and work hard to raise their family, they had jobs, they sent their kids on to college. I think today it is much harder to succeed today without at least some college education. I think something that is generally missing for high school kids is the skills to successfully make it on your own. A lot of kids get a major crash course in this once they go to college or move out of their parents house at whatever age that is. I think 50-75 years ago kids were more expected to contribute to the family unit whether it was working on a farm, working in a family business, or helping to raise their younger siblings.

 

I don't know if I have been clear or not, it is still early and I am just waking up.:001_smile:

[Lizzie in Ma]

Are parents less educated? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the education parents recieved at school really matters. What does matter is their motivation level.

When my eldest was elementary school age I stayed up for hours learning logic, writing, Greek, and science in order to be prepared for middle school. When she got to middle school I was teaching myself high school subjects. Now that she's a high schooler, I'm researching universities. I try to always stay one step ahead.

Education is extremely important to me. Mine wasn't particularly good, and I'm willing to work hard to give my children something better. I sometimes wonder if others are willing to do the same. As a society, we don't like to work hard. We praise people for what they can do rather than pushing them for more. I'm not saying this is always bad, but sometimes I think we could all do with a kick in the butt.

If you want your children to have a good education then educate yourself. Yes, it's hard work and takes time, but it's worth it. If you're not willing to do the work, you won't get the results.

 

Well stated. I agree. Homeschooling is hard work, educating yourself so that your children are educated is crucial. I don't mean that I relearn Algebra 2 per se so that I can teach it, but I find resources to help us both understand if there is something we are struggling with. I do mean that I am continually and perpetually reading a higher level of everything I assign my dc so that I am here to teach, discuss and help understanding of material.

You HAVE to be involved, informed and engaged.

[delaney]

For me I see a trend that bothers me more. The literally pushing through of kids just to get them done. Don't retain because they are old for their grade. Don't retain because they have a label in one area. Don't retain because they are tall for their age! The list goes on. I am not sure it is the level of education as much as it is the need to just get them through. There is no pride in academics. The HS students here are encouraged to NOT pursue higher math once they meet the requirements for graduation. Classes like flower arranging(yes it is a class) are what they fall back on to fill in their transcript and pad their GPA? When did this become okay? I felt bad taking typing as a senior! It never crossed my mind that I shouldn't take 4 years of all the core classes. Now they just give them the minimum and encourage it!

 

My second son works for his A's and the neighbor's kid brings home an A for doing 1/2 the work because he is in a "lower" reading level class. WHY? What is my son working for? An "A" is no longer an "A" and there is no pride in achievement......rant over:tongue_smilie:

I think homeschoolers work harder to ensure that their high school students work hard and stay on a solid academic track.

[Renee in NC]

:iagree:

 

I've been substitute teaching for the school year 2010-present, and I'm REALLY surprised by the high level of reading, math, and writing in the elementary school & up. They also have strong basic science, history and grammar instruction too. I believe it has to do with the MA state standards and the high level of expectations of the school in my town.

 

School standards are rigorous in MA whether it's public or private schools (I have a son in each).

 

My experience in FL was that in elementary school, they are doing a really good job. Kids were learning all the skill areas well and getting a lot of content, too. Unfortunately, I don't know what happened in middle school. What passed for education in my ds's 6th grade classes was horrible - dumbed-down, minimal standards, no homework, and atrocious behavior. The school fed into a top high school, which seemed to have two tracks - those who were in AP, IB, or dual enrollment and the rest. The majority fell into "the rest" category, but high-achieving kids came from all over the county for the IB program (one of the largest in N. America.)

 

I don't have any first-hand experience here, but my cousin's dd went to high school here and her advice was to go anywhere else. Her dd had a science teacher that had taught my cousin 30 years ago and he said that things were not the same - what passed as "general" back then is "college prep" now. The behavior, even in the honors classes, was so bad that the teachers couldn't teach. My cousin's dd felt like she had wasted 3 years - she transferred to a private school for 12th, graduated valedictorian, and LOVED it. She said the difference was night and day.

 

I try to remember this when the downsides of homeschooling are weighing on me. There are pros and cons to both choices.

[texasmama]

In Texas, public school teachers now spend an inordinate amount of time "teaching to the test" or covering the material on the standardized testing. This is one difference which exists from my time in public school (which ended in 1985, when I graduated from high school). Every teacher I know has complained mightily about this. It takes time away from other learning. Teachers receive pressure to have students who perform well on the test so the school is rated well.

 

I suspect that more severe classroom management/behavioral issues exist in most schools than did when I was attending school. This detracts from learning, as well.

 

So, perhaps the opportunity for learning is there for students who are very motivated and able to be somewhat self-directed, but the average kid is receiving less helpful classroom instruction, I believe.

 

How does this affect homeschooling? That is a much harder conclusion to draw. On one hand, we of yesteryear perhaps had better opportunities, but the younger generation of homeschoolers have access to a greater level of support, information, resources, etc. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it probably balances out, particularly for those folks who are your typical WTM followers.

 

In spite of my fairly stellar public education experience, I have had to relearn math, some grammar and a lot of history, for various reasons. I am masters degree educated so it is not that I rely solely on my public school education to buoy me up for homeschooling. However, I am 44 and in my fourth year homeschooling. It has been a LONG time since I was in a classroom setting of any type (as a student). I think that it is quite possible that a younger generation homeschooling mom who began her homeschooling journey earlier in life might be better prepared than I to take on the task, given similar variables.

 

It is difficult to make generalizations regarding this topic because so many variables exist.

Edited September 22, 2011 by texasmama

[kalanamak]

When I was in high school, I was teased due to my vocabulary. I immediately dumbed my vocabulary down, and started using a lot of slang on purpose to fit in.

 

I was teased, too, but I reacted by using longer words. :) Fortunately, a group of us finally "found" each other. All but two of us were teacher's kids, BTW.

 

I don't know about school in the last 25 years, but I know the school system I went to changed radically in the 60s. Between 1958-1972 was a complete crash. There was a teacher's school in town, and we had student teachers all the time. This may have caused us to crash early. I don't know, but I'm very sorry I was in the middle of it.

[ccm]

:iagree:

 

I've been substitute teaching for the school year 2010-present, and I'm REALLY surprised by the high level of reading, math, and writing in the elementary school & up. They also have strong basic science, history and grammar instruction too. I believe it has to do with the MA state standards and the high level of expectations of the school in my town.

 

School standards are rigorous in MA whether it's public or private schools (I have a son in each).

 

I am pleased to hear that this school district is doing well. School standards may be rigorous in Massachusetts but public schools in my hometown are under-performing. Two of the three schools mentioned on the front page of the local paper today are schools my older children attended ten years ago. Back then, they were "the best schools in town". I was a very involved PTO mom and I thought they were bad at that time.

[seraphina]

There are so many factors involved here and I don't think a blanket statement is going to fit. I see a variety of intelligence levels in all age groups and socio-economic groups. I have kids in public school and one son at home. I interact with a variety of parents, some with kids in school and some homeschooling and the "intelligence" level runs the gamut. And likewise I see the same with kids from elementary school through high school. I am impressed with my oldest son's friends. They are all taking high multiple AP classes including high levels of science and math and they know the information. I look at myself and where I was at their age and I don't think I was as intelligent even though I was taking similar classes. But I also see kids and parents that just floor me.

 

But I take a step back and realize that not everyone has the same knowledge or capacity for knowledge. As a parent of special needs kids this is something I have had to learn firsthand. I struggle with trying to teach my ds (13) pre-algebra when his younger brother excels at Algebra. It's not due to lack of intelligence or lack of trying, it's just how his brain is wired.

 

We all have different abilities and as society changes there are different types of education needed. I do see lots of faults in todays educational system such as teaching to the test and over-emphasis on rote memorization. I think as a group many lack necessary skills such as common sense and even creativity. But I also see many brilliant kids and adults. I think that the divide is bigger today and perhaps that is why we see things the way we see them. The intelligent people seem that much more intelligent and the ones that aren't also seem that much so.

 

Yep, lots of rambling, it's been one of those days.

[MIch elle]

Two of the three schools mentioned on the front page of the local paper today are schools my older children attended ten years ago. Back then, they were "the best schools in town". I was a very involved PTO mom and I thought they were bad at that time.

 

Some towns & cities in MA have a high population of poor and non-native speaking English students and/or parents. Those are the areas that would be below standards (in NE MA, Lowell & Lawrence come to mind).

 

The MCAS standards weren't around 10 yrs ago, so it's hard to compare from then to now. Now all towns are compared by MCAS scores.

 

How did you or anyone know it was a good or bad school 10 yrs ago without state standards and tests?

Edited September 22, 2011 by MIch elle

[BabyBre]

 

Do you think that the educational level of most adults has declined in the last 15 to 20 years? Are younger adult home schoolers generally less educationally prepared than their older counterparts? If so, does this, or will it have an effect on the home schooling results?

 

 

What awesome questions.

 

As far as the educational level of most adults, I guess it depends on whether you mean a bank of knowledge or the highest level achieved in school. I'd say yes to the former (I think the useful knowledge we have is less than that of our parents) and no to the latter (the push for college has most of today's parents achieving a higher level of education than the previous generation).

 

I think younger homeschooling parents are probably less educationally prepared than older ones, not only because the education they received is weaker but also because their life experiences are weaker due to the changes that have occurred in our culture and by virtue of their young age.

 

I believe this can have an effect on homeschooling results if you let it, but a lack of education can be overcome. I've received FAR more education through teaching and learning with my children than I did in 18 years of school.

[Farrar]

I think the breadth of our education has lessened. People have less information about a variety of topics stored in their brains for the most part. On the other hand, I think the depth of our education has increased in some ways - I think more people have more specialized knowledge than in the past, especially once you get to the collegiate level, I think the whole idea of a "liberal arts" education is dying a slow death. Even liberal arts degrees encourage people to know only about a few things and not achieve a general understanding about a variety of subjects. Skills, as others have pointed out, have also changed.

 

Is it good or bad? Well, that I can't say.

 

Are younger homeschool parents less prepared? I think that's too hard to say. Perhaps the people who choose homeschooling are more likely to have a greater interest in a variety of things and therefore run counter to any overall trends anyway.

[emubird]

There is a place and a right reason for memorization and rote learning that may be missing in today's visually stimulating world. Why do all the elite private schools that produce the children of the power brokers in the world still use a model based on classical education? Why aren't they filling their course schedules with mundane subjects like video technology?

 

And yet, the elite schools are teaching video technology:

http://www.andover.edu/Academics/CourseCatalog/Pages/default.aspx#ART

 

ART-225C, Visual Studies Media Studio

For Juniors and Lowers. In this studio students make photographs and short videos to focus on two central areas of media: photography and time-based images (film/video). Through projects, presentations, and discussions students explore how these media have changed the ways people perceive the world, and express their ideas and feelings.

 

 

But mostly I'm posting this because I thought the catalog might be interesting to people.

[ccm]

Some towns & cities in MA have a high population of poor and non-native speaking English students and/or parents. Those are the areas that would be below standards (in NE MA, Lowell & Lawrence come to mind).

I do not live in either of these cities but I understand your point.

 

The MCAS standards weren't around 10 yrs ago, so it's hard to compare from then to now. Now all towns are compared by MCAS scores.

 

How did you or anyone know it was a good or bad school 10 yrs ago without state standards and tests?

I have had children in the public school system from 1989 to 2005 and I think I know the difference between a good or bad school without state standards and tests. :)

.

[MIch elle]

That's how the newspaper & state judges good and bad schools in MA by the MCAS test scores or by the level of violence which MA now has a anti-bullying law (which schools may or may not report the number of reported bullying).