Like a blog post, but I don't blog. Musings from a former homeschooler who teaches

[texasmama]

Do we know whether this is because of homeschooling, or whether she is homeschooled at least partly because she is like this?

 

This is a valid question. It is very difficult to draw causality here. Schools are full of kids who are insecure, depressed, have difficulty with social relationships, etc.

 

I have one child who has anxiety/learning disabilities who can present oddly at times. He would present oddly at times regardless of his schooling status (home, public or private). Homeschooling didn't cause his issues, but if people were looking for evidence that homeschooled kids are "odd" or "different", they might think they found it in this particular child of mine. Now, they would need to look past the child's homeschooled siblings who are gregarious and confident in order to pass this (incorrect) judgment on him.

[Jenny in GA]

I think a few examples of each point made and a few suggestions in how parents of homeschoolers can better prepare their children for high level group learning situations would be helpful for us to better understand exactly where you're coming from and where you're going with this. Over my 11+ years HSing I've heard legitimate complaints about some HSer behavior and I've heard some unfair complaints.

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, please. I thought the exact same thing when I read it.

[TravelingChris]

I have homeschooled for 17 years, in many states and one other country. My oldest graduated with few outside classes- he took drawing and painting classes at an art center, he took Russian at a gifted children's summer program. He took an online Algebra class. THat was it for outside classes for him. My older daughter took a number of outside classes- Spanish, English in a homeschool academy, then Psychology and Criminology at CCs, and finally, Creative Writing, US Government and Economics, Debate, Journalism, Computer Programming and Quilting in her 2 years of co-op. SHe also took an outside English class for 12th grade. Both of the kids were very well prepared for college math and science. They had no deficiencies at all and both were placed in good levels of math classes (not beginning levels and certainly not remedial).

 

Now you have to understand that we have lived in certain environments. My dh is AD USAF and he also is a scientist. That means we got stationed at mostly technical bases where not only are there lots of engineers and scientists at the base but also there were outside agencies and companies (things like NASA (twice), and a national lab) that also attracted similar type people. So no, I haven't run across lots of lazy students and ill-equiped parents. Some- certainly, but greatly the exception. Oh and I don't have any problems teaching math and science and if I have a problem with anything, I have my PhD physicist husband to help.

[Jenny in GA]

 

My own public high school experience seems like a joke to think about now. I went to one of the "best" high schools in the state. But I had to wait for college to get to any real discussions, real exams and quizzes with essay questions, real labs, real lab reports, real research papers. High school was such a waste of time. I cannot imagine how going to PS and having that type of experience would be better than doing correspondence work from home with private tutors when they are needed to get through it, and starting community college as early as possible.

 

 

I've been reading this thread with interest and thinking the same thing.

 

I went to two different high schools in two different parts of the country; both were highly praised for being "the best."

 

High School #1 was not bad, but seemed more social than anything. High School #2 is in the district I live in now, and even today people carry on about how wonderful it is. Here's what I remember from this "best in the state" school:

 

1) For American History, I remember copying words off the board and being told to write their definitions out of the book. We were also given fill-in-the-blank worksheets, with sentences directly from the book.

 

That was about 80-90% of the class. About once a month the teacher would stand in from of the class and lecture for about ten minutes. We were assigned to read The Jungle, but we were not asked to write about it, never had an assignment concerning it, and we never discussed it in class in any way, shape, or form. I have NO doubt in my mind that the teacher never read it, and possibly didn't even know what it was about.

 

2) For Spanish I had an elderly female teacher who seemed completely unaware of what was going on. Over half the kids (not me) would blatantly make fun or her -- regularly, and practically to her face -- during class, and she didn't even seem to notice. I honestly feel like that class shouldn't even be on my transcript because we accomplished almost nothing. Not to mention that it was painful to sit through every day.

 

3) For American Government, again it was almost nothing but fill-in-the-blank worksheets that you copy from the book. I do remember the teacher lecturing some, but it seemed more "talking about whatever he felt like" than anything that had a point or even had to do with the subject. This was a senior class, and we never had any outside reading and never had to write a thing. I don't remember anything that could truly even be called "Class discussion." A couple months later, the teacher was fired for sexually harrassing a female student. I found out years later that it was not his first offense.

 

I could go on, but those are the most extreme examples.

 

So whenever I think of possibly sending my kids to high school when I get older "because I don't know the material myself," I instantly think -- Wow, if their experience would be anything like mine -- in "the best" high school -- then, honestly, they would be better off with me just handing some quality books.

[AppleGreen]

This has been an interesting read, although somewhat disheartening. I have spent most of the day thinking about this thread and future plans.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There are just so many different solutions for so many different families. DH and I were counting up all the people in our lives who have offered (unsolicited) to step in and help with our children's educations:

 

Math Major, Lt. Colonel in the Air Force, fighter pilot, war historian, judo instructor (relative)

 

Lawyer and political science instructor (relative)

 

High School Biology teacher (works at the deaf school, offered use of everything from his own time and knowledge to his school lab)

 

Electrical Engineer that we met at the Children's Museum, was amazed at what my son already knew about electricity and alternative energy. We have him on speed dial.

 

Many musicians, experts of many instruments and varied skill levels, ready to teach or to offer performance opportunities

 

High school and college math tutor, offered to tutor for free because he likes playing music with my son

 

Published technical writer and computer programmer, available by phone and email at any time (relative)

 

Published fiction writer, available by snail mail for encouragement and gentle critique

 

Cessna pilot offering heavily discounted flying lessons after letting my son use the controls during a Civil Air Patrol orientation flight and being astounded that my son already knew how to fly (thanks to a computer game, 'Combat Flight Simulator,' that my computer-programmer Dad, who was a pilot, re-fitted to be even more realistic with more options)

 

Christian theologian and missionary, speaker of four languages, will answer questions about theology, his languages, or the history and culture of Eastern Europe where he lives and works

 

African tribal prince and chemical physicist, missionary. Will discuss politics of his country, the six languages he knows, and what it was like to study at top universities on four continents. He also loves to discuss American politics; he was recognized by the Congress of a southern U.S. state for his academic and humanitarian achievements in that state.

 

State Senator who was particularly impressed when my child served as a Page at the statehouse. Apparently no 13yo's have ever asked him well-prepared questions on policy before.

 

This is off the top of my head and doesn't begin to include everyone who has offered deliberate and scheduled time with my children. We aren't even "Who's Who" type of people. I'm a housewife and DH is skilled labor with a bachelor's degree. We've just bumped into extraordinary individuals over the years who care about upcoming generations.

 

(This list also doesn't count the endless parade of skilled laborers we hang out with IRL who are happy to share some knowledge of wiring, plumbing, ham radio, auto-body repair, roofing, leatherworking, and blacksmithing.)

 

Who are the people in your neighborhood?

[Jean in Newcastle]

This has been an interesting read, although somewhat disheartening. I have spent most of the day thinking about this thread and future plans.

 

Honestly, I don't think that it has to be this way. And as I said before, I think it is priorities rather than learning environment per se that is more important. We have a tutor coming for math now and while there have been some holes in my ds's math (which is why we hired a math tutor to begin with) we've been pleased to get his very positive feedback on ds's study habits and overall desire to learn. The tutor has been very positive on homeschooling and flat out told us that we wouldn't find the rigor and level of teaching that we want in the local high schools.

[texasmama]

Who are the people in your neighborhood?

 

In our family, we have three engineers (two electrical and a civil), an OT and an aircraft mechanic who can fix absolutely anything. In our circle of friends, we have people in the legal field, medical field, a high school calculus teacher, a computer programmer, a psychologist, and an accountant. I'm sure there are more math and science types, but that is all I can come up with off the top of my head.

[Runningmom80]

This has been an interesting read, although somewhat disheartening. I have spent most of the day thinking about this thread and future plans.

 

Ditto, I feel very discouraged at this point. :confused:

[Ginevra]

Do we know whether this is because of homeschooling, or whether she is homeschooled at least partly because she is like this?

 

This is a valid question. It is very difficult to draw causality here. Schools are full of kids who are insecure, depressed, have difficulty with social relationships, etc.

 

I have one child who has anxiety/learning disabilities who can present oddly at times. He would present oddly at times regardless of his schooling status (home, public or private). Homeschooling didn't cause his issues, but if people were looking for evidence that homeschooled kids are "odd" or "different", they might think they found it in this particular child of mine. Now, they would need to look past the child's homeschooled siblings who are gregarious and confident in order to pass this (incorrect) judgment on him.

 

This is not what I'm saying. I am not saying she is like this because of homeschooling. What I am saying is that I don't think the completely on-line college is a benefit to this young lady. She may be naturally quiet; I'm sure she probably is. BUT, doing English Lit at home on the couch is not helping. Having most of her social life surround her mother is not helping. This is not a girl with Aspergers or a disorder of any sort. She's just a quiet, delicate girl who has not had much opportunity (or necessity) to branch out a bit.

 

It's not that I think being gregarious is the be-all; I'm not outgoing, either. But I can work it if necessary. That is a skill; one that can be learned and one that can be thwarted by lack of opportunity.

 

On-line classes can be a great boon. They are certainly great for established adults short on time and ability to commute. But I don't think many teens and young adults are well-served by doing all their schooling on-line. There is a ton of experiential knowledge that you only get by physically being with peers and teachers.

[EKS]

On-line classes can be a great boon. They are certainly great for established adults short on time and ability to commute. But I don't think many teens and young adults are well-served by doing all their schooling on-line. There is a ton of experiential knowledge that you only get by physically being with peers and teachers.

 

:iagree:

[at the beach]

Ditto, I feel very discouraged at this point. :confused:

 

Please, please, please don't feel discouraged.:grouphug:

 

Have you read Homeschooling: A Family's Journey by the Millmans? Yes, I sound like a broken record. Can't be helped. This is a fabulous book. This family homeschooled (may still be) their children to college. Here are a few quotes:

 

"If courage means to go without fear, we were cowards, because fear has always been with us. The road has been blind and dark. We've never really known what we were doing, where it was leading, how it would turn out. It has been scary. It has been risky. We have just kept going anyway. That's how we did it and that's how anyone can do it."

 

"We have chosen to be free and to educate our children in freedom."

 

"Parents can make it easier or harder for a child to live and choose and love. Many of our social institutions, and especially schools, make it harder to live and choose and love in freedom. We homeschool so that our children will be able to live and choose and love, to seek the truth in freedom."

 

"Trust that no matter how implausible your formal credentials, no matter how little money you have, no matter how limited your own education may be, you can do this...provided, of course, that you choose the right metrics to measure success. If you choose as your criterion of success the development of your children as free and reasoning human beings with a devotion to the truth, and you persevere in putting their interests before your own, you will succeed."

 

"Always examine yourself to be sure that the choice you are making is not for yourself but for your child, so that your child will grow in freedom and truth."

 

I will also add that I have found that a teenager (at least mine) does require a different experience than a younger child. A teenager IMO needs to start separating from a parent, developing independence and finding out what the world has to offer. This doesn't need to come through an institutionalized school setting. It can come from working, from volunteering. I have recently decided dual enrollment classes will likely be in my high schooler's future. I feel she will enjoy a live classroom environment. I don't care that AP may be more impressive academically, and I also don't care that she could handle AP science and math. I care what meets my child's needs. There is no perfect educational experience. Every choice has pros and cons. Every single one.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Violet

[Mommyfaithe]

Ditto, I feel very discouraged at this point. :confused:

 

This was definitely my fear when Joann poster her experience. My experience has been different. I don't sit on my laurels with my kids...I am a go do it kinda mom...that said, I did homeschool my older kids with very little outside help...and those kids had no problem with academia, social scenes or moving into their adult lives. We also had extremely little teen rebellion. We worked on relationship and responsibility to themselves and their community from an early age. We stood by them in their struggles and cheered them in their victories.

 

Now, are all kids going to be brain surgeons or physisits? No, but if one of my kids wanted to go there...we would have done everything humbly possible to get them there...and sitting in a class full of bored teens hardly seemed the ticket.

 

I still disagree with Joann. Maybe her experience has not been wide enough to see the opportunity for kids...especially teens...to be a vital part of their community, to learn from all sorts of avenues, to have real experiences. I am not sure. I know she loved homeschooling and is still a homeschool advocate, but to say we CAN'T do a good job without outside help....well I just don't agree.

I don't think all learning depends on outside classes. I don't think it is the best option available especially for young children. Homeschooling is HARD. It takes a commitment most aren't willing to make. It takes sacrifice, creativity, grace, love beyond what you think you are capable of, a spirit that is open to learning, resilience in the face of adversity or illness. If homeschooling were easy, everyone would do it. For some, outside classes may be necessary to achieve a particular goal.....but to paint a picture of ALL, is just not truth.

 

Faith

[Nan in Mass]

It might be a good idea to start planning now for ways to make your child's world bigger as your child grows - ways to provide opportunities for your child to struggle and gain the satisfaction of succeeding by himself without family help, ways for your child to contribute to the family and the community and the world, ways to work with a wide variety of people, ways to help your child to try lots of new things and find out where his interests lie. It also might be a good idea to think about what skills your child will need in order to succeed in a classroom environment, with textbooks (thinking ahead to college). (That doesn't mean you have to do all subjects with a textbook.) It might be a good idea to think about which subjects you can do well at home, which subjects it won't matter if you don't do well at home (history for my future engineer, for example), and which subjects you will need to outsource, and begin to make plans for these. (Those plans might involve beginning to save money. Outsourcing tends to be expensive.) It might also be a good idea for you to think of ways to "validate" your child's mummy-written, mummy-taught, mummy-graded transcript. That might mean tests like SAT, ACT, AP or SAT2, or it might mean community college class, or it might mean an online class, or a tutor, or an academic coop, or something else. You won't need to validate every single class, but you need to have some way to show colleges that the transcript you are providing isn't based on just a mother's biased opinion. You also might want to think about how you are going to help your child manage the transition to classroom learning. (Mine started with two easy community college classes, just to get used to putting one's name on the paper and being in a noisy classroom.) It is important to figure out why exactly you are homeschooling, what you hope to give your children, and then make sure that the price is not too high. If it is to keep your children out of a public school where students regularly shoot each other, then almost anything you do will be better than the alternative. You need to be careful to provide for your child's social needs and not to sacrifice your relationship with your child. This might mean outsourcing more than you had ever dreamed you would.

 

It isn't easy but it can be done. Many people do it successfully. It needs a different approach from elementary school. If you think about it beforehand and don't rule out outsourcing some things, it will be easier.

 

HTH

Nan

[Jean in Newcastle]

Who are the people in your neighborhood?

 

This is such an important question that I'm going to start a spin-off thread. (I hope you don't mind. It's just that otherwise I think it will be lost in the greater discussion of this particular thread.

[Mommyfaithe]

:iagree: It really is the parents. Not the form of schooling even, IMO. My dh teaches college. Unless you have college teaching experience, you may not realize the high number of parents who still try to coddle and overprotect their kids. Dh has had SO many parents come in begging for their kids to have higher grades-even when the kids don't bother showing up for class. And the parents almost always win getting the school to erase plagiarism and other offenses on their record. Dh is on the Academic Standards Committee which is just a fancy and official way of erasing Fs on students' records because they are "oh so sorry". FWIW, none of these kids he's dealt with like this were homeschoolers, but that doesn't mean no homeschool parents do this. ed.

 

As a homeschool mom, if my kids don't do well, or plagiarize, or copy the answers out of the math book and get caught...they have to deal with me :D. They can't play Hooky, I would notice. They can't stare out the window....I notice. Work is handed in late....I notice. No excuses....

Innate seen a whole lot of this type of mollycoddling in the schools, on sports teams, in the play groups etc. Little Johnny would never bite your kid even though your kid now has a nice set of teeth marks on his arm. My darling deserves an A because it would look awful on her record. Puleeze. For goodness sake...that would never fly around here. When my kids began college, they were absolutely floored with how many kids played these games and had their parents back them. This was COLLEGE! These were seemingly adults. Funny, but at graduation, there were an awful lot of homeschoolers graduating with honors...and we have never had co- ops in our area. Go figure.

 

Faithe...who feels there is enough people outside the homeschool community who want to drag us down and unnerve us into thinking we are doing a crummy job without having to discourage ourselves.

[Momof3littles]

It might be a good idea to start planning now for ways to make your child's world bigger as your child grows - ways to provide opportunities for your child to struggle and gain the satisfaction of succeeding by himself without family help, ways for your child to contribute to the family and the community and the world, ways to work with a wide variety of people, ways to help your child to try lots of new things and find out where his interests lie. It also might be a good idea to think about what skills your child will need in order to succeed in a classroom environment, with textbooks (thinking ahead to college). (That doesn't mean you have to do all subjects with a textbook.) It might be a good idea to think about which subjects you can do well at home, which subjects it won't matter if you don't do well at home (history for my future engineer, for example), and which subjects you will need to outsource, and begin to make plans for these. (Those plans might involve beginning to save money. Outsourcing tends to be expensive.) It might also be a good idea for you to think of ways to "validate" your child's mummy-written, mummy-taught, mummy-graded transcript. That might mean tests like SAT, ACT, AP or SAT2, or it might mean community college class, or it might mean an online class, or a tutor, or an academic coop, or something else. You won't need to validate every single class, but you need to have some way to show colleges that the transcript you are providing isn't based on just a mother's biased opinion. You also might want to think about how you are going to help your child manage the transition to classroom learning. (Mine started with two easy community college classes, just to get used to putting one's name on the paper and being in a noisy classroom.) It is important to figure out why exactly you are homeschooling, what you hope to give your children, and then make sure that the price is not too high. If it is to keep your children out of a public school where students regularly shoot each other, then almost anything you do will be better than the alternative. You need to be careful to provide for your child's social needs and not to sacrifice your relationship with your child. This might mean outsourcing more than you had ever dreamed you would.

 

It isn't easy but it can be done. Many people do it successfully. It needs a different approach from elementary school. If you think about it beforehand and don't rule out outsourcing some things, it will be easier.

 

HTH

Nan

 

:iagree: I hope that as they get older we can help foster mentorships, opportunities for our children to shadow other adults, to possibly take outside courses, to volunteer, to perhaps start their own non profit or work on another "big" project, etc. This is part of what appeals to me and drew me to HSing. By high school (and even starting in middle school), I'd like to see my kids taking some of the reins, participating in decision making, and experiencing interactions with mentors and advisors. It seems like a natural progression to me, and one far more natural than being in the halls of a brick and mortar school most days, up until the child is dropped off at college to be "on their own" more or less.

[Mommy22alyns]

This has been an interesting read, although somewhat disheartening. I have spent most of the day thinking about this thread and future plans.

 

Ditto, I feel very discouraged at this point. :confused:

 

 

Seriously. I'm tired of so much discouragement here. Every other thread leaves me feeling like I'm destined to fail.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

This is such an important question that I'm going to start a spin-off thread. (I hope you don't mind. It's just that otherwise I think it will be lost in the greater discussion of this particular thread.

 

Thank you! I was actually on the way out the door to TKD when I posted that, and I realized as I was driving that I kind of forgot to even make my point. LOL

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Seriously. I'm tired of so much discouragement here. Every other thread leaves me feeling like I'm destined to fail.

 

There has certainly been a discouraging tone 'round these parts lately! I totally agree.

 

Some of us who believe it can be done because we are doing it are quieter than usual at the moment. I think we're still getting into the groove of the new school year and simply don't have as much time to post.

 

I'll try to post more. I believe in homeschooling. Re-read TWTM when you doubt; there is a K-12 program laid out in those pages! Written by people who did exactly what you are trying to do. Take heart.

[Ria]

Re-read TWTM when you doubt; there is a K-12 program laid out in those pages!

 

Yes. It's there. It's fantastic. And yet so few people even read the book. So few people, even on these boards, actually follow this. It's no wonder some of us are discouraged.

 

Yes, it can be done. It can be done well. And it's tough. It's a job. It takes a lot of effort, but it's worth everything to do it right. The question is this: are you willing to make the commitment? That's the real question. Families who are determined to succeed DO succeed.

[FloridaLisa]

Perhaps your #5 will go something like this:

 

5. There are educational advantages and disadvantages to both homeschooling and schooling. One of the advantages of homeschooling is that there is more to an education than just academics and these non-academic ways to approach education that aren't very compatible with educating large quantities of children all at the same time. One of the disadvantages is that it is easy to over-shelter and over-managed one's children. Another disadvantage is that it is hard to teach advanced subjects well. One of the advantages of schooling is that if you are ever going to go to school (for example college), lots of experience with learning from a textbook and proving that you have learned something is helpful. An enthusiastic, knowledgable teacher and an interested class can inspire and instruct in a way that working on one's own does not. On the other hand, the quest to satisfy one's curiosity and the satisfaction that comes of figuring things out for oneself and being able to concentrate on whatever one wishes are also nice. And finally and most importantly: There is more to growing up than academic education and those other things are probably more important than one's academic education. Many families choose homeschooling or schooling based on those other things.

 

That is where I think you might wind up in a few more years. : )

Nan

 

Nan, you've pulled me out of lurking. So very true. And encouraging as usual. To those who are laboring alongside your kids, ahead of your kids, and into the evenings long after your kids have gone to bed, may you be encouraged to keep up the good work.

 

Lisa

[Colleen in NS]

This has been an interesting read, although somewhat disheartening. I have spent most of the day thinking about this thread and future plans.

 

Ditto, I feel very discouraged at this point. :confused:

 

Seriously. I'm tired of so much discouragement here. Every other thread leaves me feeling like I'm destined to fail.

 

Don't let this thread discourage you. From what I can gather, Joanne is mostly talking about high school level work, and within that, math and science. Which, for many people, *is* challenging to teach. But you don't need to worry about that just yet, because you're all still working on elementary/young middle grade basic academic skills. Which will set up great foundations for higher level work, no matter if you decide to teach the higher levels yourselves or outsource them. You do have time to figure out what will be the best options for each kid each year of high school. So hang in there, and read posts by people who are doing what you might want to be doing in a few years. It'll help you stay encouraged, even if down the road you decide to outsource courses - at least you'll be able to come up with great reasons to outsource. :D

[SeekingHim77]

I am homeschooling my 16 year old son and live in a small town where there are no co-ops. Both my husband and myself attended the local public highschool and I have no doubt whatsoever that I am giving my son a far superior education than any that it could provide. The only other alternative is the local private Christian school which has only been in operation for 3 years or so.

 

I actually homeschooled a friend's child for a few months who had previously attended the Christian school. I thought the textbooks were a joke-not to mention boring as all get out. Let's just say I was far from impressed.

 

I am confident in my ability to give my children a great education. This is our 9th year of homeschooling and I'm thrilled with the results thus far.

 

I'm not against co-ops. They simply haven't been an option for us. The only thing that has come close for my family was the year that we met with 2 other families once a month to do dissections for biology. I guess you could consider that a co-op. It was terrific but not a classroom-type experience. My son has been in 4-H and has had other classroom experiences though. He has always done well.

 

If I decide to outsource in the future, it will be through my son taking dual credit college classes.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Melanie32
add

[Alte Veste Academy]

Don't let this thread discourage you. From what I can gather, Joanne is mostly talking about high school level work, and within that, math and science. Which, for many people, *is* challenging to teach. But you don't need to worry about that just yet, because you're all still working on elementary/young middle grade basic academic skills. Which will set up great foundations for higher level work, no matter if you decide to teach the higher levels yourselves or outsource them. You do have time to figure out what will be the best options for each kid each year of high school. So hang in there, and read posts by people who are doing what you might want to be doing in a few years. It'll help you stay encouraged, even if down the road you decide to outsource courses - at least you'll be able to come up with great reasons to outsource. :D

 

I have not been doing this as long as Colleen but I agree with this (especially the bolded!). And you know what else? The longer I do this, the better I'm getting at it. You can't let every criticism (major or minor) allow your resolve to be diminished. Instead, steel yourself! Let the criticism be constructive, even when you feel the tone is not. Be proactive by adapting and creating fixes for those failings that truly are an issue for you (and we all have some, of course). Just roll your eyes at the rest. ;)

 

Always be honest with yourself though. Sometimes we feel defensive for good reason (been there, personally). If you really are doing a great job, don't let threads like these make you feel like a failure. If, instead, you know in your heart of hearts that you're not doing a great job, do let threads like these be a wake up call. Put on a pot of coffee and make a plan. Then get to it! :)

[Colleen in NS]

The only thing that has come close for my family was the year that we met with 2 other families once a month to do dissections for biology. I guess you could consider that a co-op. It was terrific but not a classroom-type experience.

 

Now this would be my kind of co-op (and yes, it IS a co-op! You are co-operating with other people to accomplish something!)! Very small, very focused, and doing exactly what you want to do. I really hope I can find people later on with high school kids, with whom we can do focused science experiments.

[EKS]

Yes, it can be done. It can be done well. And it's tough. It's a job. It takes a lot of effort, but it's worth everything to do it right. The question is this: are you willing to make the commitment? That's the real question. Families who are determined to succeed DO succeed.

 

This (the bolded part) is the message that is missing from most mainstream information (and conversation) about homeschooling the upper grades. The whole "they'll teach themselves so you don't have to know anything" is a total crock. Even if they do teach themselves, you still have to be a sounding board and provide constructive feedback on their assignments. And to do this you need to know what the book says and then some.

 

And then there are the experiences that I simply cannot provide. Meeting (or exceeding!) another adult's expectations. Interacting with peers in an academic setting. I'm not talking about socializing here--I'm talking about intellectual discourse with peers--not with mom and not with an expert.

 

On the other hand, I'm confident that my children are getting a far better education than they would in the local schools. At least in many ways, and for the moment, those ways outweigh the ways in which they aren't.

[Colleen in NS]

Interacting with peers in an academic setting. I'm not talking about socializing here--I'm talking about intellectual discourse with peers--not with mom and not with an expert.

 

Do you think this is absolutely necessary in high school? I think it would be fantastic if the opportunities arose, but I mostly think of university as being the setting for what you describe.

[amy g.]

I am as anti public school as any former public school teacher can be. My oldest attended ps for .5 of 1 st grade. None of my other children have ever been to school.

 

I'm a natural childbirth attachment parenting over controling over involved mother.

 

That said, I have been hugely blessed by my children's teachers in their out sourced classes. It isn't a coop because I pay monthly instead of volunteering.

 

I have not had a conflict in 4 years and 3 kids worth of classes, even though one of those kids is very "special".

 

I feel so blessed that the teachers not only teach my children, but they also care about them as people and care about the wellbeing of my family.

 

I pray that these teachers will still be offering quality classes when my youngest girls start 7 th grade.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Do you think this is absolutely necessary in high school? I think it would be fantastic if the opportunities arose, but I mostly think of university as being the setting for what you describe.

 

Sadly, I think it's not likely to happen in high school. I was in every honors and AP class my high school offered at the time. Even with that, the intellectual discourse between peers was minimal. Indeed, it wasn't much better with the teachers.

 

The situation was greatly improved in college. The students were more mature and, for the most part, wanted to be there.

[EKS]

Sadly, I think it's not likely to happen in high school. I was in every honors and AP class my high school offered at the time. Even with that, the intellectual discourse between peers was minimal. Indeed, it wasn't much better with the teachers.

 

The situation was greatly improved in college. The students were more mature and, for the most part, wanted to be there.

 

In high school it's called class discussions--very much facilitated by the teacher.

[Alte Veste Academy]

In high school it's called class discussions--very much facilitated by the teacher.

 

Yes, we had class discussions. My point was that they were virtually devoid of intellectual discourse.

 

ETA: For the record, I'm not saying that intellectual discourse between peers would not be valuable. I am simply saying that wishing for it doesn't make it so.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Alte Veste Academy

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I can't afford peers for my son. Classical or university model schools within driving distance of here cost an arm and a leg.

 

If we're talking about age-mates, he has no problem chatting with people his own age. But going to school or joining a co-op will not expose him to students of Latin, Greek, Formal Logic, Rhetoric, and The Great Books. He won't find intellectual peers in these places.

 

That's why we homeschool!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yes, we had class discussions. My point was that they were virtually devoid of intellectual discourse.

 

:iagree:

 

There is no way I'm subjecting my son to those hours of meaninglessness, and I can't picture him sitting through that nonsense now. He knows too much. He's too educated at 15 to go to public school. If I'd had more education a generation ago, myself, I would have physically left the building when those inane conversations began instead of only wandering away in my mind.

 

I'm sorry, I know that's harsh, but that's reality for gifted students. If their parents are rich, they can go to good private schools. If their parents are poor, they can homeschool with WTM and other classical methods. If their parents are middlin' they can take an online course or two with Memoria Press or whoever.

 

What they can't do is join a co-op of average students or a public school and come out with an increased awareness of the subject at hand. Re-al-it-y.

[momma2three]

Do you think this is absolutely necessary in high school? I think it would be fantastic if the opportunities arose, but I mostly think of university as being the setting for what you describe.

 

I don't think that it's necessary, but I think it's ideal. And the reason I'm interested in homeschooling is so I can provide as ideal an education as I can manage. My high school experience was very Socratic, and it served me very well in college and beyond.

[justamouse]

Sadly, I think it's not likely to happen in high school. I was in every honors and AP class my high school offered at the time. Even with that, the intellectual discourse between peers was minimal. Indeed, it wasn't much better with the teachers.

 

The situation was greatly improved in college. The students were more mature and, for the most part, wanted to be there.

 

My daughter (who is a junior is PS) is saying it's happening in some of her HS classes, but it's because she is the one asking the questions, talking to the teachers. And, she can ask those questions because of her homeschooling.

 

I think there are too many variables for that to happen in most HSs. Every kid is at a different level, some just want to spit out info and move on, some actually LIKE the subject, some just breathe. A teacher can try, but if you have 20 kids who just look at you...

[Lang Syne Boardie]

A teacher can try, but if you have 20 kids who just look at you...

 

:iagree:

 

*That* is what I hated about high school, and it is why my sons don't go to Sunday school past fourth grade. It is exasperating to sit there with all the answers on the tip of your tongue while everybody else just stares at the teacher for an hour. You don't want to answer all the questions yourself, you know some of the kids could answer if they wanted to (especially since the teacher keeps making the questions easier and easier in hopes that somebody will say something), you get tired of feeling sorry for the teacher, and you just come to resent the whole situation.

[WishboneDawn]

Now this would be my kind of co-op (and yes, it IS a co-op! You are co-operating with other people to accomplish something!)! Very small, very focused, and doing exactly what you want to do. I really hope I can find people later on with high school kids, with whom we can do focused science experiments.

 

I'm waving my hand here! :D

 

I'd like discussion groups as well. My daughter and I have done some philosophy questions and she loves it but without a larger group to discuss that with it doesn't have quite the impact it should.

 

So science and philosophy. :)

[Alte Veste Academy]

:grouphug:

:iagree:

 

*That* is what I hated about high school, and it is why my sons don't go to Sunday school past fourth grade. It is exasperating to sit there with all the answers on the tip of your tongue while everybody else just stares at the teacher for an hour. You don't want to answer all the questions yourself, you know some of the kids could answer if they wanted to (especially since the teacher keeps making the questions easier and easier in hopes that somebody will say something), you get tired of feeling sorry for the teacher, and you just come to resent the whole situation.

 

:iagree:

 

Wow. Spooky. It's like you were in all my classes with me. :lol:

 

I remember being one of the very few people in my AP English classes who didn't read Cliffs Notes. Even my best friend never read the material (and I still tease her about it to this day). She still managed to get A grades. Really, what does that say? Every stinking thing, that's what it says.

[Colleen in NS]

Now this would be my kind of co-op (and yes, it IS a co-op! You are co-operating with other people to accomplish something!)! Very small, very focused, and doing exactly what you want to do. I really hope I can find people later on with high school kids, with whom we can do focused science experiments.

 

I'm waving my hand here! :D

 

I'd like discussion groups as well. My daughter and I have done some philosophy questions and she loves it but without a larger group to discuss that with it doesn't have quite the impact it should.

 

So science and philosophy. :)

 

Hmmm.....filing this away in my brain.....what about TWEM-style lit. discussions, too.....we need to find another Mom or two with older kids around here, who want the same thing for their kids!

[leeannpal]

I haven't read all the posts, but can I offer another POV?

 

I have taught in both public and private schools for 12 years. My students have been quite the variety in all ways, good and bad. I believe they could have all benefited from some instructional time with their parents. Most traditionally schooled families do not get nearly enough up close and personal, quality bonding time. Parents do. not. know. their. kids.

 

I wish with every ounce of my being that I could homeschool my kids, instead of half @!& after schooling, but that will never be.

 

It all comes down to parenting, I believe, in the long run, not method of schooling. But, it may be easier to parent, especially during the early years, when you spend more time with them. That's hard to do when you drop the kids off at daycare at 6:45 and pick them up at 5:30.

 

I wish wish with every ounce of my being

 

I am right there with you except that I have taught for 13 years. As a private school teacher at a small school, I see several of the issues that joanne mentioned,particularly hovering parents who expect the teachers to make sure their child gets a certain grade because, after all, they are paying big money for it!

 

I feel really lucky to be at the same small school as my daughter, but, I really wish I could homeschool now, and not have to wait until next year.

 

Joanne, I like the gist of your post. Over time, it is normal for people to change their ideas about things. I think you made some good points.

Edited September 20, 2011 by leeannpal

[Mom0012]

Oh, gosh, I remember arguing with you!

 

Honestly, Ria, I am aghast at what I see. Having worked in public schools, I was already getting the polish worn off my homeschool high horse. The progression has been like this:

 

1. Staunch homeschooler, unwilling and unable to see that homeschoolers might have failed on any measurable scale.

 

2. Ok, some homeschoolers might have missed the mark. But many of those simply choose another teaching style, or educational paradigm.

 

3. Ok, some homeschoolers do not teach upper levels well.

 

4. OMG. Are you kidding? I don't want to admit that the numbers of inadequate homeschoolers are as high as can be extrapolated from my experiencial data.

 

5. To be determined.

 

I really dislike blanket statements like this. Sure, maybe there are homeschoolers that aren't doing a great job, but I know many moms that are working hard on academics with their kids every day and doing everything they can to make sure their kids are well balanced. When someone gets on here and says something like this, it just makes me feel like I'm part of some loser group. Is it possible that the kids you are seeing in a school setting are the ones that had parents that failed at homeschooling?

 

There may be some parents that do a poor job homeschooling their kids, but I've seen the results of the public schools and don't believe there are any fewer casualties there.

 

For the record, I don't like coops because in my experience they are a waste of my time and I can't afford to pay $400 a class for elementary and middle school courses that I can easily teach at home. Plus, I am HOMEschooling. If I wanted to pay someone to teach my child all their classes, I would get a job and send them to private school.

 

Lisa

Edited September 20, 2011 by LisaTheresa

[Delighted3]

This is my 18th year homeschooling. All of my kids have been homeschooled since the beginning and I have graduated 2 children who have both gone on to college. I am not blinded to the problems of homeschooling. I do believe that there are problems in every educational setting. We have chosen to homeschool. We don't evaluate that choice every year, it is just what we do.

I think the parents are the common denominator in any situation where a child is successful. There are overly interfering parents in any educational situation. In homeschooling, it is the ones that pull their kids out of any situation they are unhappy with, so they never learn to just deal with hard things in life. On the flip side are parents who are overly apathetic in any educational situation. Like the ones who think both parents can work a full time job, while their teen home educates by themselves.

I feel bad that there are so many young homeschoolers being discouraged here on a homeschooling board. Homeschooling can be done all the way through high school. Is it easy? No. Are there challenges? Yes. Each individual child is different. There are no formulas that guarantee success for any child. I think a parent who wants to homeschool through high school needs to be realistic about who their child is, set high goals, put their child in situations where they can grow, let them fail sometimes, and most importantly be just as available to the the child as they were when the child was 2, but in different ways. Parenting is hard work no matter where your kids go to school. For us, we have made the decision to homeschool and don't allow ourselves to be swayed from that course, but we do evaluate how to best fill the needs of each individual child. Sometimes that means coops, sports, part time jobs, or just fulfilling social needs.

Joy

Edited September 20, 2011 by Delighted3

[SeekingHim77]

Now this would be my kind of co-op (and yes, it IS a co-op! You are co-operating with other people to accomplish something!)! Very small, very focused, and doing exactly what you want to do. I really hope I can find people later on with high school kids, with whom we can do focused science experiments.

 

Okay then, I guess we have co-oped. :D

 

The dissection thing went really well but we've tried literature discussions and that hasn't been very fruitful-to much immaturity with the others. My son is the oldest kid in our group. I'm the homeschooling pioneer around here.

 

I think one reason so many don't utilize co-ops is because it's hard to find other homeschoolers who have the same goals as you-not because co-ops are bad in and of themselves. I think most of us would love to find an affordable co-op that shared our educational philosophies and goals. I know I would.:001_smile:

 

The more I read these threads, the more I realize that so much of what we discuss as homeschooling issues are really cultural issues. So much of it has to do with where one lives, what kind of people they are surrounded by, etc. It seems the issues that get brought over apply across the board-from homeschooling to public/private schools and even colleges!

 

Many of us don't even have access to co-ops or anything even close to a decent public school. Many of us can't afford or don't like the local private school. I believe that's what makes us so confident that we are giving our children the best education available to them. We are very familiar with the other options and they aren't good ones.

[Nan in Mass]

Colleen - I found you needed at least three people. This is why my youngest wound up doing great books with us when he was in 5th grade - discussions with just two didn't "go". With the youngest, I added my mother as a third. The best lit discussion I ever had was here on the board. One of us was catholic, one uu, and one Jewish. I thought the story was utterly stupid when I first read it but I ended up respecting it greatly. And I learned that discussions amongst people who don't think alike go the best. We managed at home because we had some age differences. This was the most noticable when my mother and I and my son all read Gilgamesh and discussed it. We had each focused on a different aspect of the story depending on our stage of life. I realized that a good classic is like that - it has something for everyone. Discussions "go" when nobody really knows the one right answer. I kept thinking at the beginning of homeschooling that our discussions would be better if they included an expert, but then I realized that if we had an expert, it wouldn't be a discussion - it would be a question and answer session, unless the expert was a good socratic teacher (my father happens to be that). Even so, my children wouldn't have been as inclined to say speculate about how something might work.

Nan

[snowbeltmom]

 

On-line classes can be a great boon. They are certainly great for established adults short on time and ability to commute. But I don't think many teens and young adults are well-served by doing all their schooling on-line. There is a ton of experiential knowledge that you only get by physically being with peers and teachers.

 

On-line classes have served my kids far better than a classroom setting. The on-line classes have been where they have found true peers and knowledgeable teachers across all disciplines from the humanities to math to the hard sciences.

 

Kids do not have to be physically in the same room in order to have meaningful discussions and peer interactions.

[snowbeltmom]

The more I read these threads, the more I realize that so much of what we discuss as homeschooling issues are really cultural issues. So much of it has to do with where one lives, what kind of people they are surrounded by, etc. It seems the issues that get brought over apply across the board-from homeschooling to public/private schools and even colleges!

 

Many of us don't even have access to co-ops or anything even close to a decent public school. Many of us can't afford or don't like the local private school. I believe that's what makes us so confident that we are giving our children the best education available to them. We are very familiar with the other options and they aren't good ones.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Ginevra]

On-line classes have served my kids far better than a classroom setting. The on-line classes have been where they have found true peers and knowledgeable teachers across all disciplines from the humanities to math to the hard sciences.

 

Kids do not have to be physically in the same room in order to have meaningful discussions and peer interactions.

 

First, your kids (in your siggy) are not that old. I would consider your oldest (15) at the early point of beginning the branching out I'm talking about. The young lady I was speaking of is 19. IMO, she should already have had the experience of a physical college.

 

Secondly, it's not just meaningful discussions. It's the entire mildly stressful experience of being out of the safe cocoon of home. It's going into the building and sitting for an exam; it's looking at the map and understanding where L-281 is; it's using people and resources toward your end goal. Literal knowledge and a paper degree is not the only point (to me) of college. Tremendous value is gained by teens who have ample opportunity to use their own wits and skills, exercise their own interpersonal abilities, navigate in a structured system without mom paving the way at every turn, without sitting comfortably on the couch in the family room.

 

That's what I'm talking about.

[Mom0012]

Colleen - I found you needed at least three people. This is why my youngest wound up doing great books with us when he was in 5th grade - discussions with just two didn't "go". With the youngest, I added my mother as a third. The best lit discussion I ever had was here on the board. One of us was catholic, one uu, and one Jewish. I thought the story was utterly stupid when I first read it but I ended up respecting it greatly. And I learned that discussions amongst people who don't think alike go the best. We managed at home because we had some age differences. This was the most noticable when my mother and I and my son all read Gilgamesh and discussed it. We had each focused on a different aspect of the story depending on our stage of life. I realized that a good classic is like that - it has something for everyone. Discussions "go" when nobody really knows the one right answer. I kept thinking at the beginning of homeschooling that our discussions would be better if they included an expert, but then I realized that if we had an expert, it wouldn't be a discussion - it would be a question and answer session, unless the expert was a good socratic teacher (my father happens to be that). Even so, my children wouldn't have been as inclined to say speculate about how something might work.

Nan

 

What a great idea to include your mother! I'll have to see if my mom would be interested in something like this since she loves to read.

 

Lisa

[Ginevra]

This (the bolded part) is the message that is missing from most mainstream information (and conversation) about homeschooling the upper grades. The whole "they'll teach themselves so you don't have to know anything" is a total crock. Even if they do teach themselves, you still have to be a sounding board and provide constructive feedback on their assignments. And to do this you need to know what the book says and then some.

 

:iagree: I completely agree! I think there is a complete lie floating around that homeschooling can be done while sleepwalking and the kids will all get free rides to Harvard. I am discovering that there are families with newly-turned high school homeschoolers who are dumbfounded that it costs so much to have a French tutor, or someone to teach Algebra and they have been surprised to learn that the kids cannot teach themselves and the parents cannot just "pick it up" in an afternoon.