Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

[Shellydon]

I tried to ask this back several pages, or something similar. I was trying to get a visual understanding of the whole thing because that would help me. If you envision a human version of your god, and you believe that other faiths are not worshipping the same god, then what does heaven look like?

 

Are there separate gods that different people are praying to? Are those outside your faith not praying to anyone (in your belief)? Correct. They are praying to nothing that exists.

 

Do you envision separate heavens for the different religions?

 

No. There is one heaven and one true God.

 

.

 

My 2 cents in blue.

[Kari C in SC]

Jesus has always existed. It was just 2000 years ago that He came to earth in fully human form - fully God' date=' fully man.

 

ETA: Salvation is only through Jesus, but we will all meet Him at the time of our death, and all judgment is entirely up to HIm. So someone may have lived their life as a devout Muslim or Jew, or ... and can still be given the gift of eternal life. : )[/quote']

 

:iagree:

 

This is what I believe. Not always popular, but exactly what I believe. It is very personal to me because my niece, whom I love dearly, told me that "maybe I would see my son again" a few months after he died. My son believed in God, but was really not clear on all the rest. Partly because he was raised by very young parents that didn't have a clue what we believed. Took me 2 days to stop playing her words over and over in my head repeatedly. I believe exactly what you said and thank you for writing it.

[Lovedtodeath]

I tried to ask this back several pages, or something similar. I was trying to get a visual understanding of the whole thing because that would help me. If you envision a human version of your god, and you believe that other faiths are not worshipping the same god, then what does heaven look like? Are there separate gods that different people are praying to? Are those outside your faith not praying to anyone (in your belief)? Do you envision separate heavens for the different religions?

 

When I was practicing, I assumed that everyone who believed in a monotheistic, "big three religion" god, was praying to the same guy. Their personal belief paths might be different (goodness knows they're different within the same path, ie. different types of Christians contained within the Christian umbrella), but it was all the same guy. I assumed that polytheists were praying to different gods.

 

Writing about this just shows me that I've been pretty agnostic for a long time.

There is only one truth, but God's justice is perfect. There are 4 different groups of people in Luke chapter 12 and they are judged accordingly. There is more to God's justice than heaven OR hell.

 

TeachinMine and Kari explained it how I used to, until I found more details to the same basic belief. I agree with what they say.

[KungFuPanda]

My 2 cents having skipped 10 pages.

 

Al = the

Lah = god

Allah = The God

 

It's a flowery language. If they meant a different 'one true God' I believe they'd use a different word in the Bible than the Koran. Both say 'Allah' in Arabic.

 

Someone also mentioned that some Christians disagree that "The Source of Death" could be one of the names of God. If memory serves, this word is actually 'Al Mumita.' I've seen it translated at Bringer of Death and think it fits with the Christian belief in a God who would destroy the world with a flood.

[Rosie_0801]

I would say no. I think Muslims worship one of the idols (like Baal) that the one true God warns against.

 

But they call this idol the one true God, the God of Abraham, the Same Dude the Jews and Christians are Down With, why? Just to be tricky?

 

Rosie

[twoxcell]

No they do not!

[Mrs Mungo]

Butting in because earlier I said Allah when I meant Mohammed. That's what I get for posting quickly on a very busy day. Please forgive me?

[justamouse]

Not in a divine Messiah. In Judaism the Messiah will be a great king, butna fully human one. The man-god conception of Jesus is a Christian innovation (and one that Jews throughly reject).

 

ETA: You are wrong about Islam, they do believe in the concept of a Messiah (Madhi).

 

 

Bill

 

 

what's butna?

[keptwoman]

what's butna?

 

But space a

[twoforjoy]

See, I just don't get how someone can have a nonexlusive religion. There has to be some objective truth beyond simply what I think or feel or whatever. So what is that truth? Where does the idea that many religions lead to God come from?

 

I think it depends on what you mean by "non-exclusive." Sure, not all religions can be right. But, that doesn't mean that God will necessarily reject people who believe wrong things.

 

I think the idea that "many/all religions lead to God" gets misconstrued. The idea isn't, I don't think, that many/all religions are equally true and so the paths they put forth do an equally good job of earning people's way into heaven. The idea is that God is so good that he will, in his goodness and mercy, in some way welcome all (or some variation of "all"--all who seek him, all who've lived a good life, all who have tried to do right--although I personally think it's "all" as in every single person) regardless of their religion.

 

For one take on this (I don't personally agree with it entirely, but I think it presents a good case), there's a good book called The Evangelical Universalist. The author has a much shorter piece here that lays out some of the major points of his argument. The Inescapable Love of God is also very good.

 

My objective truth is the Bible. The Muslim's objective truth is the Koran/Q'uran (sp.?). The Jewish objective truth comes from the Old Testament. Where do those who believe all religions are equal get their objective truth?

 

I don't think anybody actually believes that "all religions are equal" in the sense that "all religions are exactly the same" or "all religions are equally correct." Although some would say they are all equally wrong. ;) I think the sentiment being expressed is either that all religions should be treated equally in society and/or that God is at work in all religions and/or that people from all faith backgrounds can and do have access to God.

[SeekingHim77]

I think it depends on what you mean by "non-exclusive." Sure, not all religions can be right. But, that doesn't mean that God will necessarily reject people who believe wrong things.

 

I think the idea that "many/all religions lead to God" gets misconstrued. The idea isn't, I don't think, that many/all religions are equally true and so the paths they put forth do an equally good job of earning people's way into heaven. The idea is that God is so good that he will, in his goodness and mercy, in some way welcome all (or some variation of "all"--all who seek him, all who've lived a good life, all who have tried to do right--although I personally think it's "all" as in every single person) regardless of their religion.

 

For one take on this (I don't personally agree with it entirely, but I think it presents a good case), there's a good book called The Evangelical Universalist. The author has a much shorter piece here that lays out some of the major points of his argument. The Inescapable Love of God is also very good.

 

 

 

I don't think anybody actually believes that "all religions are equal" in the sense that "all religions are exactly the same" or "all religions are equally correct." Although some would say they are all equally wrong. ;) I think the sentiment being expressed is either that all religions should be treated equally in society and/or that God is at work in all religions and/or that people from all faith backgrounds can and do have access to God.

 

I get your point but my point is where do you get this idea? Who originally thought of it and why believe in it other than the fact that it sounds really good?

 

By the way, you expressed that very nicely.:001_smile:

 

I do believe God welcomes all who truly seek Him.

[twoforjoy]

I get your point but my point is where do you get this idea? Who originally thought of it and why believe in it other than the fact that it sounds really good?

 

Christians have always disagreed on what exactly is necessary for salvation. A number of people have argued that universalism was the default belief of the early church, and it wasn't until Constantine that it became a minority (and later heretical) position. I'm not sure if there's sufficient evidence to warrant that, but it does seem like there wasn't a definitive set of ideas about exactly who would be saved and how in the early church (not that there is now, either), and that universalism was one position that has always been held by at least some Christians, based on their interpretation of the Bible.

 

FWIW, here are some of the verses people point to in support of universalism. Personally, I think that you can find support for a variety of positions on the means and extent of salvation in the Bible, so I don't think "proof-texting" is very effective. But, I guess some people disagree and compile webpages like that one. ;)

[Teachin'Mine]

It is not reasonable to Jews to see Christianity as an extension of Judaism. Nowhere in Judaism is there the concept of a divine man-god who is part of a multiple-parted god-head.

 

Judaism denies Christianity much (much) more than Islam does, although both are alike in denying the divinity of Jesus.

 

But if accepting that belief in Jesus as God is the standard for worshipping the same God, then both Jews and Muslims are alike in worshipping a different God than Christians.

 

Bill

 

In the OT they are waiting for the coming of the Messiah. In the NT, He comes. :)

[elizabeth]

You are a brave, brave, soul.

 

Is it a full moon or something?

 

Yes, the worship the same God.

 

The moon is at 89% of full. :lol:

[goldberry]

I'm with Audrey in that if you believe in one true God (which I do, the God of Abraham, to whom we are reconciled by Jesus Christ) then there IS only one out there. So yes, everyone is worshipping the same one. That is a separate issue of whether the one true God accepts the worship, or approves of the manner in which the worship is given.

 

The manner in which I have chosen to worship is what I believe God expects of me to the best of my knowledge. Yes, I do believe that I should worship a certain way to have MY worship accepted. Whether or not He chooses to accept other worship under what other circumstances is not really any of my concern or business. I don't have the necessary ability of all-knowing and heart-reading in order to make those decisions, and I am happy to leave them to God instead!

[Joanne]

There is more than one verse that I am alluding to. :001_smile:

 

I am very familiar with all the verses you are alluding to.

 

I think people often choose their beliefs to support their lifestyle choices, thereby forming their own god in a way.

 

I disagree, and I find this to possibly be an inaccurate generalization.

 

See, I just don't get how someone can have a nonexlusive religion. There has to be some objective truth beyond simply what I think or feel or whatever. So what is that truth? Where does the idea that many religions lead to God come from?

 

My objective truth is the Bible. The Muslim's objective truth is the Koran/Q'uran (sp.?). The Jewish objective truth comes from the Old Testament. Where do those who believe all religions are equal get their objective truth?

 

 

Doesn't the belief in God mandate that one is only worshiping the one, true God if they are worshiping Him as He is and not as who they think He is? If so, how can any two people of conflicting religions be truly worshiping the same God?

 

I disagree that belief in God = exclusivity or objective truth as delineated by {name a canon}.

 

For example, I believe all peoples from the beginning of time wanted an explanation; a creation story. And so, they created one. Creation stories are captured in the Christian bible, greek myths, countless other traditions - all from oral tradition in cultures that communicated truths about existence with intentional hyperbole.

 

I believe that traditional/conservative Christians, and Muslims, and (to a lesser extent) Buddhists frame spirituality and God as Truth-literal. I see it as Truth-metaphoric.

[SeekingHim77]

Christians have always disagreed on what exactly is necessary for salvation. A number of people have argued that universalism was the default belief of the early church, and it wasn't until Constantine that it became a minority (and later heretical) position. I'm not sure if there's sufficient evidence to warrant that, but it does seem like there wasn't a definitive set of ideas about exactly who would be saved and how in the early church (not that there is now, either), and that universalism was one position that has always been held by at least some Christians, based on their interpretation of the Bible.

 

FWIW, here are some of the verses people point to in support of universalism. Personally, I think that you can find support for a variety of positions on the means and extent of salvation in the Bible, so I don't think "proof-texting" is very effective. But, I guess some people disagree and compile webpages like that one. ;)

 

Taking the New Testament as a whole, I think it's pretty clear what is required for salvation.

 

Okay, now I'm going to read the webpage you linked.............

[Teachin'Mine]

:iagree:

 

This is what I believe. Not always popular, but exactly what I believe. It is very personal to me because my niece, whom I love dearly, told me that "maybe I would see my son again" a few months after he died. My son believed in God, but was really not clear on all the rest. Partly because he was raised by very young parents that didn't have a clue what we believed. Took me 2 days to stop playing her words over and over in my head repeatedly. I believe exactly what you said and thank you for writing it.

 

From what you have shared of your son, I believe he will be waiting to welcome you home. :grouphug: Love your niece, but don't let her words give you a moment of pause. Remember the laborers who were paid for their work. The ones who were hired an hour before the end of the day were paid the same as those who labored all day. Then there's the prodigal son, and the "good" thief, and Mary Magdalene, and ... Jesus told the parables and used these real life stories to teach us about His unfathomable love and mercy.

[Amy in NH]

Yes. I do believe that all of the major religions worship the same one God.

[SeekingHim77]

[

QUOTE=Joanne;3125227]I am very familiar with all the verses you are alluding to.

 

 

Well, you said verse not verses so I just wanted to clarify.

 

I disagree, and I find this to possibly be an inaccurate generalization.

 

 

Notice I used the word often. I did not say all people of such and such faith, etc. so I fail to see how it could be a generalization. I have seen this school of thought enough to use the word often.

 

I disagree that belief in God = exclusivity or objective truth as delineated by {name a canon}.

 

For example, I believe all peoples from the beginning of time wanted an explanation; a creation story. And so, they created one. Creation stories are captured in the Christian bible, greek myths, countless other traditions - all from oral tradition in cultures that communicated truths about existence with intentional hyperbole.

 

I believe that traditional/conservative Christians, and Muslims, and (to a lesser extent) Buddhists frame spirituality and God as Truth-literal. I see it as Truth-metaphoric.

 

 

I'm so glad that we're both free to believe our very different beliefs!:D

[Audrey]

Well, yes, but I think you are missing my point. The God of the OT, at least in my understanding, is who the Muslims and Jews are worshipping. The NT is what makes a Christian a Christian. But if you stripped away the NT and did not consider it, are we not all talking about the same God?

 

ETA: I understand that God is God and all that. But the NT brings in Christ. Without mention of Christ, I think the OT God is the same one for the Jews and the Muslims.

 

 

It is the same one for Christians, too. Jesus was talking about the OT god when he said "my Father." Jesus only brought a new covenant. He did not bring a new god.

[justamouse]

The moon is at 89% of full. :lol:

 

It's like clockwork, yanno? :D

[Jamauk]

:lurk5:

 

I have to say how impressed I am that this has gone on for 18 pages and remained so civil and so far no one has stomped out or gotten themselves kicked off the board!

 

I've never frequented a web board where this would have been possible. So, thank you.

[justamouse]

But space a

Ahhh. Well, you never know with Bill. I thought it was some Jewish word he knew. :D

[AngelBee]

I'm never quite sure why people ask questions like this. I always feel like they have a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda.

Would you rather people never ask and forever remain ignorant of the beliefs of others?

[twoforjoy]

Would you rather people never ask and forever remain ignorant of the beliefs of others?

 

It's hard to know how to get answers to these kinds of questions.

 

My son asked me, a couple of years ago, why some Muslim women wear burqas. I didn't know the real answer, and I didn't know how to find the real answer. I don't have any close Muslim friends, and I didn't feel comfortable asking any of the Muslim women I know (at the time I had a few Muslims students and my OB is Muslim), because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate and I didn't want them to feel like they had to be the spokespeople for Islam. But I didn't want to just go online because I figured that I'd probably be getting a lot of biased information, and I wanted to know the Muslim perspective on it, not what non-Muslim people thought the practice was about.

 

I do think it's a shame that it's so hard to ask these questions without worrying about people wondering about your intentions or feeling uncomfortable.

[AngelBee]

I guess I will bow out of this conversation. The topic really interested me, and I answered the OP from my point of view, never claiming to be an authority. Certain people seem intent on picking apart everything I say, and even making it appear as though I've said things I haven't. :glare:

 

I do hope the thread remains civil for others, because it's a great place to learn.

 

I appreciate your participation. :grouphug:

[MSNative]

Do we have any Muslim posters who would like to chime in? I'm curious what they would say. Specifically, since many Muslims (or at least those who get all the press) say that Jews and Christians and all other non-Muslims are infidels, I'd guess that they don't think that "the big three" all worship the same God.

 

I certainly don't know the answer. Back in the day, I worked at a job where we were on the lookout for counterfeit documents. The best documents were the ones that were incredibly close to the genuine doc. So, I would think that if there were a demon/anti-Christ/deceiver/Dark Side/what-have-you trying to lead people away from the one true God, then that entity would make religions that were very similar. However, just 'cause they are similar, the fake one is still fake.

 

On the other hand, I think faith in something: God, gods, good force in the universe, being one with nature, whatever you want, etc is something that humans in general seem to share. Perhaps since so many are seeking to fill that need, they define it differently based on their culture. So, different religions develop just like different cuisines develop. In that sense, all could be worshipping the same God, just in different ways.

 

Clear as mud?

Edited September 9, 2011 by MSNative

[AngelBee]

The Muslim faith began hundreds of years after Christianity, and denies a great deal of Christianity's most fundamental beliefs. One of the more notable examples is their denial that Jesus Christ was crucified.

 

It's reasonable to look at Christianity as the extension and fulfilment of Judaism, but it is not reasonable to look at the Muslim faith as the extension and fulfilment of Christianity. Christianity does not deny Judaism. The Muslim faith, however, denies Christianity.

 

That has lots of meat to think about. Thanks :)

[mommaduck]

Treading nicely here: I believe that we both worship a God, the Creator. I believe our views and beliefs of Who He Is, of heaven, of hell, of salvation, and everything else is very different. This is where one would say that they don't recognise the God that the other describes. So in a sense, yes, and yet again, no.

[Joanne]

On the other hand, I think faith in something: God, gods, good force in the universe, being one with nature, whatever you want, etc is something that humans in general seem to share. Perhaps since so many are seeking to fill that need, they define it differently based on their culture. So, different religions develop just like different cuisines develop. In that sense, all could be worshipping the same God, just in different ways.

 

Clear as mud?

 

:iagree: This makes so much sense to me. Always has, although for a LONG time, I was afraid to voice it.

[mommaduck]

Do we have any Muslim posters who would like to chime in? I'm curious what they would say. Specifically, since many Muslims (or at least those who get all the press) say that Jews and Christians and all other non-Muslims are infidels, I'd guess that they think that "the big three" all worship the same God.

 

I certainly don't know the answer. Back in the day, I worked at a job where we were on the lookout for counterfeit documents. The best documents were the ones that were incredibly close to the genuine doc. So, I would think that if there were a demon/anti-Christ/deceiver/Dark Side/what-have-you trying to lead people away from the one true God, then that entity would make religions that were very similar. However, just 'cause they are similar, the fake one is still fake.

 

On the other hand, I think faith in something: God, gods, good force in the universe, being one with nature, whatever you want, etc is something that humans in general seem to share. Perhaps since so many are seeking to fill that need, they define it differently based on their culture. So, different religions develop just like different cuisines develop. In that sense, all could be worshipping the same God, just in different ways.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Very. I think you stated it pretty well.

[raceNzanesmom]

No.

[milovany]

Again, same with Jews regarding Judaism.

 

Bill

 

I dunno Bill, but for some reason I think you might be trying to make a point here. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. ;)

 

People are just addressing Christianity and Islam because that's what the OP asked about. If you want to push it further, I guess that's your prerogative.

[Karis]

I think it depends on what you mean by "non-exclusive." Sure, not all religions can be right. But, that doesn't mean that God will necessarily reject people who believe wrong things.

 

I think the idea that "many/all religions lead to God" gets misconstrued. The idea isn't, I don't think, that many/all religions are equally true and so the paths they put forth do an equally good job of earning people's way into heaven. The idea is that God is so good that he will, in his goodness and mercy, in some way welcome all (or some variation of "all"--all who seek him, all who've lived a good life, all who have tried to do right--although I personally think it's "all" as in every single person) regardless of their religion.

 

For one take on this (I don't personally agree with it entirely, but I think it presents a good case), there's a good book called The Evangelical Universalist. The author has a much shorter piece here that lays out some of the major points of his argument. The Inescapable Love of God is also very good.

 

 

 

I don't think anybody actually believes that "all religions are equal" in the sense that "all religions are exactly the same" or "all religions are equally correct." Although some would say they are all equally wrong. ;) I think the sentiment being expressed is either that all religions should be treated equally in society and/or that God is at work in all religions and/or that people from all faith backgrounds can and do have access to God.

 

 

Two points...

 

This makes me think of the "other sheep"

(of a different pen?)

 

Do Universalists believe in the Bible as being true and relevant? If so, how do they/ you (general) reconcile the "All" saved in light of scripture.

 

I mean, without clarifying the "All"

 

All who...what? It's ALL who "something."

Edited September 9, 2011 by Karis
typo

[Lovedtodeath]

I certainly don't know the answer. Back in the day, I worked at a job where we were on the lookout for counterfeit documents. The best documents were the ones that were incredibly close to the genuine doc. So, I would think that if there were a demon/anti-Christ/deceiver/Dark Side/what-have-you trying to lead people away from the one true God, then that entity would make religions that were very similar. However, just 'cause they are similar, the fake one is still fake.

This is my personal experience and it has been made VERY clear to me.

[Lovedtodeath]

Two points...

 

This makes me think of the "other sheep"

(of a different pen?)

Jesus was speaking to Jews, so the other sheep were, by context, gentiles.

 

I learned quite a bit about Universalism recently. I believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Jesus died for all and is both capable and willing to redeem all. He will not, however, tread on free will or serve injustice. Luke chapter 12 speaks of 4 different groups of people with 4 different rewards and punishments upon his return.

[twoforjoy]

I dunno Bill, but for some reason I think you might be trying to make a point here. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. ;)

 

People are just addressing Christianity and Islam because that's what the OP asked about. If you want to push it further, I guess that's your prerogative.

 

I think Bill is making a good point. The main reason I'm seeing for people arguing that Muslims are not worshiping the same God is that Muslims don't believe in the Trinity and don't see Jesus as divine. But, Jews don't believe those things, either. So, if that's the basis for Muslims worshiping a different God, then Jews worship a different God, too.

 

So then the argument has been made that Christianity is a further revelation, built on Judaism. So, it's the same God. But, Jews don't see it that way. They don't see Christianity as an extension of Judaism, but an entirely different religious system (and one that has historically been quite hostile to them).

 

Muslims, AFAIK, see their faith in relation to both Judaism and Christianity in the exact same way, as a further revelation, building upon what came before. But, Christians don't see it that way, any more than Jews see Christianity in that way.

 

Which I guess boils down to my saying that I agree with Bill that there's really no way to say that Jews and Christians worship the same God without saying that Muslims also do, or that Muslims and Christians don't worship the same God without saying that Jews also don't.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I was trying to worship the God of Abraham and thought I was for years. But I was not worshiping the God that I worship now.

 

I was not worshiping God in spirit as is required until I accepted Jesus Christ as my only mediator, and I didn't really know God, which is also required.

 

John chapter 4 and John 17:3

 

:iagree: They are not the same. To equate them would devalue all the Christ did on the cross. It feels fuzzy and cuddly to say that we all worship the same God, but it just isn't true. The Spirit of Truth testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He was in the beginning with God, and that He IS God.

[twoforjoy]

Two points...

 

This makes me think of the "other sheep"

(of a different pen?)

 

Do Universalists believe in the Bible as being true and relevant? If so, how do they/ you (general) reconcile the "All" saved in light of scripture.

 

I mean, without clarifying the "All"

 

All who...what? It's ALL who "something."

 

I am very hesitant to speak for all universalists. But, in general, Christian universalists do believe that the Bible is true and relevant. They look to the passages that seem to indicate universal reconciliation (for example, I was just reading Colossians 1 tonight, and it speaks of Jesus reconciling all things to himself). Other passages in both the OT and the NT speak of God's desire to save all people, to reconcile all things, and to renew all things. Universalists would interpret passages that seem to speak of eternal torment in light of those passages, whereas those who believe in eternal torment would interpret the universalist-seeming passages in light of passages that seem to support their belief in hell as everlasting punishment.

 

FWIW, many universalists do not deny the reality of hell, just the duration of it. They'd say that hell exists, and people will go there, but that the purpose of hell is remedial, and at some point even those in hell will be reconciled to God. And, universalists can be either inclusivists, and believe that Jesus saves all people in a way that doesn't require explicit belief in him, or exclusivists, who believe that people must explicitly affirm faith in Jesus to be saved (in that case, they believe that people can make that affirmation after death and after time in hell). The main difference between Christian universalists and Christians who believe in eternal torment isn't, IMO, what they believe about the Bible or about Jesus, but whether or not they think that, after death, all chance to be reconciled to God are lost. Most universalists would say that there are indeed "second chances" (and third, and fourth, and fifth...) after death, whereas most Christians who believe in eternal torment would say that there are no second chances after death. That seems to me to be the most fundamental theological difference between the two positions.

 

And that's going really o/t, so I apologize.

[helena]

Do we have any Muslim posters who would like to chime in? I'm curious what they would say. Specifically, since many Muslims (or at least those who get all the press) say that Jews and Christians and all other non-Muslims are infidels, I'd guess that they don't think that "the big three" all worship the same God.

 

I certainly don't know the answer. Back in the day, I worked at a job where we were on the lookout for counterfeit documents. The best documents were the ones that were incredibly close to the genuine doc. So, I would think that if there were a demon/anti-Christ/deceiver/Dark Side/what-have-you trying to lead people away from the one true God, then that entity would make religions that were very similar. However, just 'cause they are similar, the fake one is still fake.

 

On the other hand, I think faith in something: God, gods, good force in the universe, being one with nature, whatever you want, etc is something that humans in general seem to share. Perhaps since so many are seeking to fill that need, they define it differently based on their culture. So, different religions develop just like different cuisines develop. In that sense, all could be worshipping the same God, just in different ways.

 

Clear as mud?

 

We're a Muslim family here. :001_smile:

I posted (on page 2) a link to an old thread with a similar conversation. I'm too distracted tonight for this thread, but you might find something interesting in there?

[Lovedtodeath]

I am very hesitant to speak for all universalists. But, in general, Christian universalists do believe that the Bible is true and relevant. They look to the passages that seem to indicate universal reconciliation (for example, I was just reading Colossians 1 tonight, and it speaks of Jesus reconciling all things to himself). Other passages in both the OT and the NT speak of God's desire to save all people, to reconcile all things, and to renew all things. Universalists would interpret passages that seem to speak of eternal torment in light of those passages, whereas those who believe in eternal torment would interpret the universalist-seeming passages in light of passages that seem to support their belief in hell as everlasting punishment.

 

FWIW, many universalists do not deny the reality of hell, just the duration of it. They'd say that hell exists, and people will go there, but that the purpose of hell is remedial, and at some point even those in hell will be reconciled to God. And, universalists can be either inclusivists, and believe that Jesus saves all people in a way that doesn't require explicit belief in him, or exclusivists, who believe that people must explicitly affirm faith in Jesus to be saved (in that case, they believe that people can make that affirmation after death and after time in hell). The main difference between Christian universalists and Christians who believe in eternal torment isn't, IMO, what they believe about the Bible or about Jesus, but whether or not they think that, after death, all chance to be reconciled to God are lost. Most universalists would say that there are indeed "second chances" (and third, and fourth, and fifth...) after death, whereas most Christians who believe in eternal torment would say that there are no second chances after death. That seems to me to be the most fundamental theological difference between the two positions.

 

And that's going really o/t, so I apologize.

Thanks for explaining. I had forgotten the details.

[ma23peas]

I have always thought that the Muslim faith is an offshoot of Ishmael...God said he would make a great nation from him, Jews and thus Christianity coe from Isaac..not sure from the Muslim history if they accept this?

[twoforjoy]

It feels fuzzy and cuddly to say that we all worship the same God, but it just isn't true.

 

Certainly you are entitled to your beliefs and opinion. But, I think it's very, very dismissive to write off the beliefs of those who think that either Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all worshiping the God of Abraham or that all worship is directed, ultimately, to the same God as just being "fuzzy and cuddly." I think a number of people on this thread have given solid historical and theological reasons for believing those things. You can certainly disagree, but I don't think it's fair to just dismiss it as some kind of fuzzy-wuzzy-feel-good fantasy, when people have reasons rooted in history and theology behind their beliefs.

 

Plus, with God, is anything too good to be true? George MacDonald (a very famous universalist, since universalism has come up, as well as a major influence on C.S. Lewis) is said to have responded to the idea of his beliefs being too good to be true by arguing that they were so good they must be true.

[ravinlunachick]

Serious question, no snark:

 

If Jews don't worship the same god as Christians, then where does that leave Jesus, who lived and practiced as a Jew? Did he ever actually try to explain to all his Jewish followers that they were woefully uninformed about the true (triune) nature of God? My distant Sunday School education is failing me here.

[MSNative]

I have always thought that the Muslim faith is an offshoot of Ishmael...God said he would make a great nation from him, Jews and thus Christianity coe from Isaac..not sure from the Muslim history if they accept this?

That was my understanding too.

[MSNative]

We're a Muslim family here. :001_smile:

I posted (on page 2) a link to an old thread with a similar conversation. I'm too distracted tonight for this thread, but you might find something interesting in there?

 

Oops. Sorry. I must have missed your post. Thanks for drawing my attention to it. Off to go read. Thanks!! :)

[Carol in Cal.]

Serious question, no snark:

 

If Jews don't worship the same god as Christians, then where does that leave Jesus, who lived and practiced as a Jew? Did he ever actually try to explain to all his Jewish followers that they were woefully uninformed about the true (triune) nature of God? My distant Sunday School education is failing me here.

 

They do worship the same God. Christianity extends Judaism, but it doesn't negate it. Jesus doesn't direct His followers to some other God--instead He teaches them to pray (more often, and more extemporaneously), to follow the spirit of the law, and to extend the commandments. He does instruct them to baptize 'in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit', but He never presents that as separate gods. Never.

[Lovedtodeath]

Serious question, no snark:

 

If Jews don't worship the same god as Christians, then where does that leave Jesus, who lived and practiced as a Jew? Did he ever actually try to explain to all his Jewish followers that they were woefully uninformed about the true (triune) nature of God? My distant Sunday School education is failing me here.

Here are some scriptures that touch on your question. I am sure that we could look them up and cross reference them to find more.

 

This scripture was the first one that I embraced, that brought me peace. I didn't have to have it all figured out: Anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.-- 1 John 2:23

 

These seem to indicate a certain amount of understanding in the early disciples:

 

Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” --John 20:28

 

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.--2 Corinthians 13:14

 

compare Genesis 1:26 and John 1:3 with Isaiah 44:24

[MSNative]

Ok, hope this is not tacky or a board faux pas. I went to Helena's link and read her post. She so clearly articulates responses to many questions raised in this thread. I am posting some of her post here so that no one else misses it like I did. I cannot agree more with the bolded part (bolding mine). Very well put.

 

"But despite these divisions - no matter what our perceptions are as 'Believers' - the Nature of God remains unchanged i.e.

in all of the worlds religious traditions - God is not reliant upon his Creation - and his nature does not change depending on what we as humans think

that nature is or isn't. In light of that, we teach our children according to our religious understanding, to the best of our knowledge - but also in awe of the fact, that we are not God, and cannot speak for God. ...

 

In regards to the Christian view of their God being that of a Triune God (Trinity). Clearly, Muslims believe Allah to be One,

and not a Trinity. But all Christians do recognize that their faith springs forth from Judaism, and that Jesus was a Jew. The fact that Judaism

does not perceive God to be Triune in nature, has never caused Christians to lay forth the argument that it is a different God for which they speak.

Rather, the correct argument made, is that their is a different theological understanding, or perception of the same God. This, by extension,

has to be applied to Muslims, and the Arabic word for God "Allah" - when for the entire history of Islam, both Muslims, as well as Christians and Jews, have understood Muslims to be worshiping the same God as them - albeit it, with a different theological understanding. And even in regards to that different understanding - it should be pointed out, that Christianity has by no means been unanimous in its acceptance of The Trinity. It is not

actually in the Bible, and in fact, for the first 325 years, was neither a universally held Christian viewpoint in regards to the nature of God, nor was it the Original conception of the earliest community). Furthermore, during the time of Muhammad (sal) relations between the early Muslim community and the Christian Negus (King) of Ethiopia, were quite cordial - with him offering protection and shelter to the Muslims as fellow believers in the same God.

 

Finally, in regards to the Christian and Jewish God having a 'different' personality - it should first of all be made clear that the 'standard' lay person understanding of the Christian God, even in relation to that of the "Old Testament' God, is that The Christian God is more a 'God Of Love', as opposed to the Jealous, Wrathful God of old. That said, Christian and Jewish

scholars alike will readily point out, God has always encompassed these various attributes (as well as others), and that we are merely witness

to different aspects of the same God at different times within both the Old and New Testament. Similarly, Allah has many of the same attributes

of which were of primary concern to the author who felt Allah to be devoid of such things. For the record - in regards to the Christian God being Holy, Pure and Just, let it be known that some Divine Names of Allah - in regards to his attributes, are al-'Adl - The Just; and al-Quddus - The Pure, the Holy. And in regards to Mercy and Grace - we have Ar-Rahman, and Ar-Rahim (the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful)."

 

Here again is the link http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95040&highlight=muslim