Help! Can my ex stop me?

[newbeee]

Hi everyone. I live in MI, where I am free to homeschool without reporting or strict curriculum guidelines and such. I finally made the decision to have a custody order and order for child support for my ds6. Until now, I have given the ex 4 years to "get his life together" and he just helped out sporadically, and showed up for visits just as sporadically. I made the decision to put it into legal document after one too many no-shows, and the fact that he won't get a decent enough job to provide a habitable home for our son. His current home is crumbling....anyway, up until now he was supportive, even proud, of the fact that I...I...have homeschooled. He never showed any interest, but was supportive. Now all of a sudden he threatened me with "you are not a licensed educator and I don't think I want him homeschooled anymore and I am going to do something about it." Is it possible for him to stop me? Even if I have saved everything my son has done and learned to show proof of his education? Any one have any answers?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It depends on a lot of things, but, imo would come down to the following:

 

What judge you have.

 

What arguments your x makes attacking homeschooling.

 

What arguments your attorney makes in defense of homeschooling.

 

Oh, and the age of your child, too. It would be one thing if your child is about to graduate from high school at the end of this school year vs. your child is about to enter first grade. (Again, only mho, but a high schooler is more likely to be able to articulate what hs'ing has done for them and you are more likely to see 'long term results'.)

[Orthodox6]

No personal experience, here, but I have read about similar occurrences.

 

I think you need a homeschool-friendly lawyer ASAP. Yes, you might lose a court fight, depending upon the local judge. (This is in my memory from reading about cases around the country.)

 

I don't like HSLDA, but shall neither encourage nor discourage you from dealing with that organization. In any case, you could check their website for the archives of previous cases in Michigan.

[Wheres Toto]

HSLDA will not assist in parental fights/custody cases so they really won't be much help.

 

Do you have any kind of custody agreement in place? Any rulings on who makes legal, medical and educational decisions? Do you have any emails or other writings that show ex supported homeschooling in the past and may be just doing this because he's upset that you are filing official documents?

 

If you can show he was supportive in the past and there has not been any compelling change in circumstances (you completely changed how you teach, what you teach, etc.) many judges will want to maintain the status quo. Unfortunately there is no guarantee you won't get a judge completely against homeschooling. Just noticed your son is 6. He's not old enough for them to ask him his preference but do you have anything to show how well he is doing? Is he working at or above grade level? Any learning disabilities or issues that might impact the decision?

 

Will he back down if you stop your proceedings? You might have to decide if having a court document outlining his visitation and support is worth possibly having him involved in education and medical decisions.

 

:grouphug:Dealing with ex's can be a real PITA.

[newbeee]

imo, he is above his level. i mean his reading is effortless and excels in math, his penmanship is better than mine....just started hsing this year and not sure what are requirements are for testing at this age and in this state....

[Scarlett]

Hi everyone. I live in MI, where I am free to homeschool without reporting or strict curriculum guidelines and such. I finally made the decision to have a custody order and order for child support for my ds6. Until now, I have given the ex 4 years to "get his life together" and he just helped out sporadically, and showed up for visits just as sporadically. I made the decision to put it into legal document after one too many no-shows, and the fact that he won't get a decent enough job to provide a habitable home for our son. His current home is crumbling....anyway, up until now he was supportive, even proud, of the fact that I...I...have homeschooled. He never showed any interest, but was supportive. Now all of a sudden he threatened me with "you are not a licensed educator and I don't think I want him homeschooled anymore and I am going to do something about it." Is it possible for him to stop me? Even if I have saved everything my son has done and learned to show proof of his education? Any one have any answers?

 

Do you have sole custody?

 

You need to consult an attorney. My guess is your X can't stop you especially since he has been so uninvolved so far. Furthermore would he really hire an attorney and fight you on it?

 

But, consult an attorney so you can ignore him with a peace of mind. :001_smile:

 

My X can't stop me. I have full custody which means I get to make the decisions on medical, education and religion.

[JulieH]

There was a recent case in NH where after a long legal battle, the father did prevent mom from homeschooling and a judge ordered child to go to public school. I think it went to the NH supreme court.

 

Also, re: HSLDA..I'm almost positive they will not get involved in any domestic cases. You'll want to check into that.

 

So, I think it *could* happen..but it does depend upon a lot of factors.

[gardening momma]

Hi everyone. I live in MI, where I am free to homeschool without reporting or strict curriculum guidelines and such.

I didn't think Michigan had no reporting. I think there is something, notification at the least. But I've never homeschooled there (just grew up there). In any case, your son is probably just reaching the age of mandatory reporting if they do require it. I'd definitely check into it if you haven't already.

 

ETA: nevermind--I see there's no reporting required. Did they change this recently?

[newbeee]

thanks guys. initially i freaked. but 1.) i doubt he would hire an attorney and fight me...2.) in the long run he usually makes the right decision to make our son happy....3.) i have saved every little thing we did in first grade this year, and i can't tell you currently where my son is nationally, but i know where he stands compared to the students at our hodunk k-12 public school, and he honestly is way ahead of his peers around here...but think i should order a CAT or something? which brings up another question...do you do an achievement test every year for your child? california achievement or something different? suggestions here?

[gardening momma]

but think i should order a CAT or something? which brings up another question...do you do an achievement test every year for your child? california achievement or something different? suggestions here?

CAT is easy to administer, but I wouldn't worry about it unless it actually comes down to a legal issue of whether you've done a good job. Then I'd do a test. Right now it's probably all about who has custody and the right to make educational choices.

[DawnM]

I don't test unless the state requires it. When I lived in CA, I didn't test at all.

 

Now we are in NC and they require annual testing. I do the Woodcock-Johnson every year now. We used to do the CAT but my oldest has some learning delays and it stressed him out to the point of frustration and craziness.

 

Dawn

[LidiyaDawn]

Do you think he'd drop his objections and not fight you if you dropped the request for child support?

[newbeee]

right now, me i guess since there is nothing yet in place. we have a meeting on the 19th and as far as i know i have the "physical custody" and decision making and he has so many overnights...i really dunno this is all new and over my head.:confused::001_unsure:

[calandalsmom]

Get a good lawyer and stop talking about this here.

It sounds like he is threatening you bc he is afraid he will have to pay support he has owed you.

 

You should always always seek formal custody arrangements to protect yourself.

 

I doubt most judges would fail to see through this attempted power play.

[celticmom]

I am not 100% certain but I believe that Homeschool Legal Advantage will help in custody situations. It sounds to me as if the OP's ex is trying to use homeschooling as a bargaining chip.

[DarlaS]

I didn't think Michigan had no reporting. I think there is something, notification at the least. But I've never homeschooled there (just grew up there). In any case, your son is probably just reaching the age of mandatory reporting if they do require it. I'd definitely check into it if you haven't already.

 

ETA: nevermind--I see there's no reporting required. Did they change this recently?

 

If you take your child out of school, it's typical to let them know (I did.) so they won't be looking for a student that's not coming back. If a child has never been their student, it's none of their business.

[Crimson Wife]

I know folks who have had to enroll their children in virtual charters in order to comply with family court rulings. Legally that's enrollment in a public school. I know there's the Michigan Virtual Charter Academy run by K12 and Michigan Connections Academy, not sure if there are others.

 

You could always enroll in a virtual charter just for the fall semester and pull your child out after you've gotten all the legal stuff behind you.

[Aelwydd]

There's something that should be pointed out here. My understanding of child custody (and elizabeth could help me out here if I'm wrong!), is that when there is a divorce, when the family courts are involved in child custody, the state actually assumes responsibility and custody of the child(ren) involved.

 

It then decides which party to assign that custody to, and in what portion. However, because the state can order a change in the terms of the custody at any time until age 18, the state never really "gives up" its custodianship of the children.

 

This is important, because the state regards child support as a sort of judgment owed the child. That means that, once a state has determined that Party A owes Party B a certain amount in child support, it doesn't matter if Mom says, "Oh, he's been doing x, y, and z, and I've give him some lee way in child support."

 

The state doesn't care what agreement or leniency Mom might have made with Dad. It's already made its judgment, and the money belongs to the child, not the Mom. So, if a judgment has been made about child support, and the state is made aware that a father (or mother) is in arrears with regard to child support payments (hasn't been making them according to the specified terms), then the state can and usually will, go after Dad. It doesn't matter what Mom thinks about the agreement at this point; it's not between her and him anymore. It's between the state (representing the interests of the child) and the dad.

 

All that's to say, once you file a report to the state, informing them that he has not been paying, things are likely to get ugly. The state will investigate, and they will determine if he has broken any part of his child support agreement. If he has, they'll call him and you to court. Then, he'll be ordered to pay up a certain amount, and if he can't afford it, then there's the possibility of having his wages garnished, but also, of being sent to prison, for being a "dead beat dad."

 

Years ago, my BIL (who is pretty much an idiot, IMO) had a child out of wedlock with his GF. They broke up, he was ordered to pay child support. He didn't keep up his terms, and fell thousands of dollars behind. In the meantime, she met and married someone else.

 

She then approached him with a deal: sign this agreement that you will give up rights to the child, so my husband can adopt him as his own, and I will forgive all the back unpaid child support. They had witnesses, and he signed and thought he was done with it.

 

Years later, the state came to be aware that BIL had not been making child support payments. They investigated, and his ex-girlfriend confirmed that he hadn't, but it was ok, because the child was now adopted by her husband.

 

The state didn't care. They had ordered BIL to pay child support for the child, until it had altered the agreement, not when the mom chose to change it. The adoption didn't change it either. When the state orders a party to pay child support, that is binding until and if the state--and no one else--changes the terms.

 

So, long story short, BIL got called in, and was ordered to pay 16K or go to prison. He paid, avoided jail, and the state released him from any further obligation (believe or not, the state could have continued to expect him to pay until the child reached 18, despite no longer being the "legal" father).

 

The moral of the story is: once you inform the state that there are issues between you and your ex about custody/ child support arrangement, your ex had better find a **** good lawyer. I think that hs'ing is going to be the least of his concerns, if he has been ordered to pay you child support, and hasn't been meeting that obligation. Unemployment or underemployment makes no difference to the state.

[newlifemom]

Get a good lawyer and stop talking about this here.

 

 

This. I would even go so far as to ask the thread be removed. You don't want anything to come back to you later on. :grouphug:

[gardening momma]

The moral of the story is: once you inform the state that there are issues between you and your ex about custody/ child support arrangement, your ex had better find a **** good lawyer. I think that hs'ing is going to be the least of his concerns, if he has been ordered to pay you child support, and hasn't been meeting that obligation. Unemployment or underemployment makes no difference to the state.

I got the impression from her OP that there are no custody or child support judgments yet, but that she will be seeking them.

[Orthodox6]

This. I would even go so far as to ask the thread be removed. You don't want anything to come back to you later on. :grouphug:

 

YES ! Remove all info ASAP from here, and shift to destroyable private e-mails if you must communicate with folks from here.

[newbeee]

so far, i filled out some paperwork, met with friend of the court who mailed the ex something he had 28 days to return, he didn't. they gave him 7 more days, he still didn't. so now they are assuming his income at full time minimum wage, unless he shows up to dispute it then, (THEN he WILL show up i am sure), and he can make any arguement about what i ask for custody. which is that my son lives with me, ex can have visitation as requested, but no overnights where he lives currently, he really isn't disputing any custody we work that out. i dunno wth his dispute is really. he is just mad that it is "official" now and he has to be legally obligated to give me x amount a week. the only reason i even brought it to the court to begin with is cuz of the condition of his home. i thought he would be like "she is serious i better buckle down and find a job and a nicer place". he lives for free in an 200 year old run down home on his fathers land...anyway i can't do the custody without the child support, even if i wanted to. my son gets state health insurance-medicaid...anyway they want support whether i ask for it or not. the more i think about it the more i am sure i will never hear another word about the homeschooling issue. especially when i have every receipt for every book and pencil and telescope and map and field trip and tae kwon do and guitar practice i ever paid for. i just don't think he will push it. and if so, i can't see our local judge thinking i am a bad mother or educator, with all i have to show for it

[newbeee]

thanks, but if there is one thing i am sure of is that these posts mean nothing to him or my situation.

[Orthodox6]

May mean nothing to him, but may mean a LOT to his lawyer, if/when he retains one.

 

thanks, but if there is one thing i am sure of is that these posts mean nothing to him or my situation.

[Ellie]

ETA: nevermind--I see there's no reporting required. Did they change this recently?

Nope, no change.

[SonshineLearner]

I'd join Clonlara, if they still let you for littles. It's accredited, right in MI, and if you're close enough you can do field trips there. At the very least, in a few short years, you can do graduation there, too :)

[SonshineLearner]

BTW, leave nothing in writing... don't have conversations about it.... (if they can legally be recorded there) Just say you enrolled in a private school.... and leave it there...

[Scarlett]

right now, me i guess since there is nothing yet in place. we have a meeting on the 19th and as far as i know i have the "physical custody" and decision making and he has so many overnights...i really dunno this is all new and over my head.:confused::001_unsure:

 

Oh, wow. DEFINITELY get an attorney involved! You really really need sole custody. Sole custody will generally give you decision making power.

 

And yes, I think a judge would grant you that considering he hasn't done his part for the past 4 years.

[Scarlett]

May mean nothing to him, but may mean a LOT to his lawyer, if/when he retains one.

 

I think she means she is anonymous.

 

OP just be sure to keep all identifying info out of this thread.

[WishboneDawn]

No personal experience, here, but I have read about similar occurrences.

 

I think you need a homeschool-friendly lawyer ASAP. Yes, you might lose a court fight, depending upon the local judge. (This is in my memory from reading about cases around the country.)

 

I don't like HSLDA, but shall neither encourage nor discourage you from dealing with that organization. In any case, you could check their website for the archives of previous cases in Michigan.

 

The HSLDA won't get involved in these sorts of cases, custody and family disputes, anyway.

[Joanne]

There's something that should be pointed out here. My understanding of child custody (and elizabeth could help me out here if I'm wrong!), is that when there is a divorce, when the family courts are involved in child custody, the state actually assumes responsibility and custody of the child(ren) involved.

 

It then decides which party to assign that custody to, and in what portion. However, because the state can order a change in the terms of the custody at any time until age 18, the state never really "gives up" its custodianship of the children.

 

.

 

That's not accurate. :001_smile:

 

OP, your xh can make things difficult for you to homeschool. He can insist on many things, which could include more time, less child support, say in medical, educational, recreational, and spiritual care of your son.

 

Here's a stark reality: It probably won't matter if your son is at or above level. In the case of a contested educational setting, most family courts will support the parent who wants the most common/cultural/mainstream choice.

 

His history will likely not count against him as much as you may think it "should". Family courts typically allow liberal involvement and say in parents who are showing interest and care in the lives of their children, even if that interest and care is sudden, in response to child support changes, and clearly manipulative.

 

I am not *trying* to be discouraging. I am trying to be truthful as a BTDT mom.

 

Yes, you need an attorney, and one familiar with homeschooling. Even with that, if your xh decides to fight it, your chances of winning are not great.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Once the court steps in (and it will now) they are going to divide the issue into 2 specific parts.

 

First comes the Custody issue

1. Legal

2. Physical

 

The issue of child support is completely separate from this, they do not cross over at all.

 

Homeschooling falls into the first category of Custody decisions.

 

Go over to the Michigan Friend of the Court website and study.

 

You'll find the factors of child custody there. Study. You'll soon become comfortable with understanding the two classifications and what belongs to what. You'll understand better what issue of care belongs to which area.

 

Your child is going to be assigned a court guardian. This guardian is going to do a home visit at each residence and evaluate the current conditions of each.

 

Michigan awards "factor points" to one parent over the other. You may win on one factor, and lose on another. It is the job of the court guardian to investigate each factor, then present that to the judge to consider the body of evidence presented and determine judgement on physical and legal custody rulings.

 

At the end, they tally them up, and the parent with the highest factor point wins on that issue.

 

The "factor" that you'll be concerned with in regards to education is this one:

 

The capacity and disposition of the parties involved to give the child love,

affection, and guidance and to continue the education and raising of the child

in his or her religion or creed, if any.

 

If you've never had to study legal language before, here's a hint. Do read each word *very* slowly. They are there for a very very specific reason.

 

In the above passage, the word: "continue" is a really, really, really big deal.

 

You own the "continue" word because you've been the provider of the "continue." You have the documentation and proof, he does not.

 

When it comes time for the guardian to do an investigation on who's been doing what in the education realm, imagine the disparity of experience here. They are going to ask questions like, "Tell me about Johnny's school work."

 

What is Dad going to say? What are you going to say?

 

The courts want continuation of the child's experience and not disruption or change unless there is neglect of duty. Along with that, they may infer they want outside validation such as a psychologist or other educational professional to give a "stamp of approval" to the current situation.

 

That can only strengthen your position to continue your plans, appease the court guardian with something other than your own records. I'd definitely look into it as extra defense material.

 

Go here, read a bit, and do try to put yourself in the shoes/mindset of the investigator (which takes a lot of practice) as you read.

 

It is not enough to just "know" and "explain" yourself here. Provide the investigator with some type of document for each factor. Keep a daily diary and document every.single.day.

 

A simple notebook is fine. The court investigator, by the way..does NOT have a choice whether or note to review your documentation..if you take it in and put it in the file, it's going in the case. That file you create is the most powerful tool in the world when it comes to determining factor strength.

 

http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/resources/publications/manuals/focb/cp_custodyfactors.pdf

 

You'll be fine. You'll be a pro at this in no time flat.

 

Do not pay a lawyer for what you can do yourself, but do consult and retain one to help represent and communicate your child in court.

 

edit:

 

It is absolutely correct that custody (on either front..legal/physical) can be challenged at any point until the child is an adult.

 

If the other parent wants to challenge custody, it must be brought with an issue that is of significant change which could impact the child's situation or day to day life.

 

I faced ridiculous child custody challenges up until the week before my oldest daughter turned 18...I was in court 3 days before her 18th birthday actually.

 

Some parents can be outrageous.

Edited August 3, 2011 by one*mom

[angela in ohio]

I didn't think Michigan had no reporting. I think there is something, notification at the least. But I've never homeschooled there (just grew up there). In any case, your son is probably just reaching the age of mandatory reporting if they do require it. I'd definitely check into it if you haven't already.

 

ETA: nevermind--I see there's no reporting required. Did they change this recently?

 

No, this has been the case for a long time.

[NotSoObvious]

Not true. :) So don't worry about that.

 

 

We had some kids come to our school because of this exact reason. Dad challenged the homeschooling and the judge agreed. From my understanding, it basically came down to the judge.

 

So sorry. Unfortunately, homeschooling is still not widely accepted or praised- from an institutional, government school POV.

 

I hope you have a good lawyer. Hopefully your ex's past will play into this and you will look like the good decision maker.

[newbeee]

thanks Joanne but i don't think I agree with that. My son is 6, and hs is the ONLY school he knows, and I have a feeling, knowing our judge, she is not going to want to change that without some solid reason why. He didn't reply to the friend of the court for over 35 days, he has shown them time and again how irresponsible he is, I really am not too worried about it anymore. thanks everyone for the input

[Joanne]

thanks Joanne but i don't think I agree with that. My son is 6, and hs is the ONLY school he knows, and I have a feeling, knowing our judge, she is not going to want to change that without some solid reason why. He didn't reply to the friend of the court for over 35 days, he has shown them time and again how irresponsible he is, I really am not too worried about it anymore. thanks everyone for the input

 

Ok.

 

I just would not rely on your feeling. Family courts, in most cases, will allow for as much say, involvement, and engagement as the non-custodial parent claims to want.

 

Actual intent and history don't often matter. It takes A LOT for courts to strip non-custodial parents of their right to determine important decisions for their children.

 

I have researched the homeschooling issue in family law. The outcomes are not in favor of homeschooling - by FAR.

 

This is a case of if you have "invited" your xh into more involvement and action by initiating follow through on child support, you also invite his response, which will put your status quo at risk.

[gardening momma]

My son is 6, and hs is the ONLY school he knows, and I have a feeling, knowing our judge, she is not going to want to change that without some solid reason why.

They could just as easily say that he is only 6, he hasn't known any school yet. He has spent time at home, which a lot of kids do until about the age of 5 or 6, before they leave for school.

[Orthodox6]

They could just as easily say that he is only 6, he hasn't known any school yet. He has spent time at home, which a lot of kids do until about the age of 5 or 6, before they leave for school.

 

:iagree: This could become pertinent. In Michigan, compulsory education begins at age 6. Nothing prior to age six would be of legal interest.

[angela in ohio]

They could just as easily say that he is only 6, he hasn't known any school yet. He has spent time at home, which a lot of kids do until about the age of 5 or 6, before they leave for school.

 

Yep. In MI, he has not been homeschooled, according to the law. He has just not been old enough for public school.

 

I agree with Joanne: once you asked for financial support, you opened it up for more involvement from him. Yes, that stinks, but I'd be thinking about whether it was really worth it. When there are two parents involved, there are then two people to make decisions about the child.

[Aelwydd]

It is absolutely correct that custody (on either front..legal/physical) can be challenged at any point until the child is an adult.

 

If the other parent wants to challenge custody, it must be brought with an issue that is of significant change which could impact the child's situation or day to day life.

 

I faced ridiculous child custody challenges up until the week before my oldest daughter turned 18...I was in court 3 days before her 18th birthday actually.

 

That is ridiculous!!

[KnitWit]

I mean NO disrespect *at all*, but if you are rejecting the advice to have this thread removed because you feel you are anonymous...please don't be naive. Even your location "in the boonies in UP Michigan" narrows you down. If a lawyer wants to find you...well...

 

That said...I wish you the best. :grouphug:

[Jennifer3141]

:iagree: This could become pertinent. In Michigan, compulsory education begins at age 6. Nothing prior to age six would be of legal interest.

 

:iagree:

 

Exactly, according to the state of Michigan you haven't been homeschooling anyway.

[redsquirrel]

Do you really think he will carry through? In my experience, he is prob making the biggest threat he can think of because you are holding him accountable. His carry through might leave something to be desired.

 

Can he afford a lawyer? Is he even going to show up to court?

 

Be prepared but don't let him throw you. Take the threat seriously, but wait to see if he even does anything. Don't mention it to him, don't beg him, don't let him know he got to you. At the very most, if he brings it up again you might say something like "you got money for that kind of lawyer? Because taking me to court for something like that can really run up the bills."

 

We are talking about a man who can't even be bothered to show up to see his kid on a regular basis. That type often doesn't carry through with such threats when they see it requires a bit of work from them.

 

So, be calm and focused. Don't let him put you on the defense yet. You are taking him to court because of what HE has not done and he has to answer for that. You aren't being called in for what you have done.

[Laurie4b]

thanks Joanne but i don't think I agree with that. My son is 6, and hs is the ONLY school he knows, and I have a feeling, knowing our judge, she is not going to want to change that without some solid reason why. He didn't reply to the friend of the court for over 35 days, he has shown them time and again how irresponsible he is, I really am not too worried about it anymore. thanks everyone for the input

 

It sounds like you really know the judge involved. The judge makes all the difference. However, I've got to say that my experience (as a mental health social worker and as a friend of someone in a custory dispute with an outrageous, law-breaking manipulative husband), Joann is right on. Absolutely stupid, unbeliveable things can happen. Get a good attorney.

[Lara in Colo]

Get a good GAL.

[katilac]

I mean NO disrespect *at all*, but if you are rejecting the advice to have this thread removed because you feel you are anonymous...please don't be naive. Even your location "in the boonies in UP Michigan" narrows you down. If a lawyer wants to find you...well...

 

That said...I wish you the best. :grouphug:

 

OP, you have quite a bit of identifying information in your profile, too, and some of the wording could be used to his advantage. You might want to edit.