Attitudes about higher education?

[Tap]

Well, yes, I think a bachelor's degree *is* like a high school diploma was just a few generations ago. I do NOT think she's a loser, but I think that not having that degree will drastically impact her employability in the years to come. The statistics back this up. Difficult as the job market is across the board, it's much worse for people without a college degree than for those with one. ... Obviously a degree does not guarantee employment -- but it does make it easier.

 

I don't think it's automatically a disaster that she's choosing to work rather than begin college immediately after high school. But I would encourage her to keep that door open, perhaps even just take a CC class or two each semester in addition to working, and see how she feels in another year or two. She may find that she really wants to open some additional doors that a degree will provide her.

 

:iagree: and my husband is a living example of this.

 

Dh worked very hard growing up. He was on his own at 16 and has worked full time+ every year since. He was an excelent employee and was promoted to the youngest manager ever at an oil company. He left when we relocated.

 

He then went to work for a huge international company. He was in direct sales and after 5 years was promoted to District Manager (about 4 rungs on the ladder from the bottom). His position usually requires a 4 year degree but it was waved for his excellent service. BUT he was stuck there. He could not move up into any position above or even a lateral position to where he was.

 

He lost his job last week. He now has 15 years of managerial experience, an excellent work history, but hasn't even be able to submit a resume anywhere because he doesn't have a degree. It is required to even apply for even the most basic management jobs now. Even the ones that say '4 year degree preferred' are not taking applications from anyone who doesn't (according to head hunters) because they won't make the first round of applications reviews. There are so many people out there, out of work, with a degree, that those without....are without jobs. Those years he spent at the oil company....those early years.....his experience as a DM, are worth nothing. His friends who went to college instead.....are getting interviews and jobs as they leave his company. Kids right out of college with a 4 year degree, are getting jobs at his old company.

 

 

 

Degrees are not for everyone, and are not required for many, many jobs.....but to move up, and to remain promotable in many companies...a degree is required and expected.

[YLVD]

My dd19 has decided to enter the workforce instead of attending college. She has gotten many negative remarks about this choice. She has been called a loser. She has been told she will never have anything or be anyone important. One friend asked her how would she get married, have a home, cars, and children. Even her dad and stepmom have berated her, and when that didn't work, they adopted an air of indifference as if they have written her off. They have not congratulated her on her success in her current line of employment. Even her aunt, who ran away from home at 16 and managed to do quite well for herself told her she was being stupid. Now that I can sort of understand because maybe this aunt regrets that choice. But I still don't understand how that compares because my dd19 hasn't quit high school. She has just chosen to not attend college!

 

I've heard that college admissions is easier than past years, and that a bachelor's degree is the new high school diploma. Would you say this is true? If it is true, then are people who choose to not attend college really seen as losers? That hurts my feelings considering my side of the family has only 1 college graduate, my father. Well, my great-grandfather was a physician and he was likely born in the very late 1800s or very early 1900s. Did a doctor go through as many years of education as doctors must do today? But still, at least it was a higher education I suppose.

 

I just feel like all the people who are calling my dd a loser are also insulting my family. It hurts. We may not have mansions or 6-figure salaries but we have had enough things to make our lives fairly decent. My mom says her childhood financial situation could be considered poor but she doesn't recall anything bad about it. I cannot recall anyone in my family history that has not been considered a good worker, as in refusing to work when they did have a job opportunity.

 

Why does it seem like success is mostly defined as having a college education and a professional job that requires a college degree?

 

In my area, a bachelor's degree is like a high school diploma. My area is considered one of the most formally educated in the US. At my last workplace, entry level receptionists needed Bachelor's degree to make very low salaries. Honestly, I couldn't imagine making it here without one without a trade or specific, well paying vocational degree.

 

I worked hard for my degree, I was a single parent in university. Without it, I would never have been able to work in my career. I could not imagine my life without that college experience. It's one of the best things I ever did for myself.

Edited June 29, 2011 by YLVD

[YLVD]

Honestly, a lot of the people getting college degrees now are not finding jobs in their fields. They are often working in entry-level jobs that have nothing to do with their education. A college degree is becoming so common-place anymore, it is no longer that special or outstanding. What IS still special and outstanding is a person with passion and vision who is leading their own life rather than following the crowd. THIS is why your daughter will stand out! And why your family is so wonderful as well!

 

I agree. But, as a former recruiter, a college degree is just a basic requirement most of the time. Many employers don't care what it is in, etc, it's just the basic requirement to get a foot in the door. Hard workers will excel, but IME, many will never get a chance to show it without getting in that door.

[YLVD]

:iagree: I find the attitude that it is a waste "odd". I don't think it's for everyone but I never think education is a waste. There are many paths to success. Further education is one of them. Dh couldn't do what he loves without a college degree. He's finishing his masters this year so he can go further in his field. With his company, the next promotion requires a masters (thankfully, they are paying for the degree too!).

 

I agree. I'm really surprised. To me, that's like saying a classical education is a waste. Clearly it is not and college is nowhere near a waste.

[Night Elf]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to let her read through the messages so she can see that not everyone thinks she is wrong for her choice.

 

Just to share, she is doing extremely well. She is a shift manager at a small restaurant where she has worked nearly 2 years. She has already been told she is to replace the general manager within the next few months when he is promoted. She is making well above minimum wage and the promotion will be a salaried position that has a nice salary increase. There isn't a whole lot of advancement beyond that really. The owners have 5 stores throughout the Atlanta area and the store managers are directly beneath them. However, she will be getting valuable experience and a heck of a resume IMHO.

 

I'm very proud of her. She has taken full financial responsibility of nearly everything in her life. The only thing she doesn't pay is rent and utilities because I don't feel she needs to do that just living at home. She and her boyfriend are saving their money so they can get an apartment and their plan is to be in their own place by the end of this year. She does not like the idea of debt and really hates when she has to go into her savings to pay for car repairs, but she replaces that money as quickly as she can. She is interested in learning to be a smart shopper. She helps me with grocery game and comes home all excited when she finds a good bargain. This young lady is much smarter with money than I have ever been. :)

 

I honestly believe she has a good plan. I just wish her dad could see that.

 

ETA: She looks up to 2 people that have done very well for themselves without college degrees. The owner of the restaurant where she works does not have a degree, and my BIL owns a Dominoes franchise and doesn't have a degree. Both started out as part-time employees and worked their way up, eventually becoming business owners. They are great role models. She is hoping to follow in their footsteps. She loves the idea of owning a small restaurant like that. So yes, she has given thought to her future.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Night Elf

[Peela]

I say good on her, and who cares what other people think.

 

It takes courage to do what you want to do, what feels right and a good path for yourself, against what is "normal".

 

Going to college is just doing what everyone else is doing. It is the rat race. If one wants to work for someone else one's whole life, maybe a degree is necessary, but if one is independently minded, there are plenty of other ways to make one's way in the world. And why would the door to college be closed? She is 19. What a great idea, not going into adulthood with a massive debt.

[5KidzRUs]

I am sorry about how your relatives expressed their concerns. You have to know that they are coming from their own histories and speaking from experience, fears and/or regret.

Is your daughter living with you? If she is, I would ask her to attend college at least part-time. As a parent, I would pay for it too if possible and if not, I would be aggressively insisting she apply for FAFSA and grants etc.

If she is living on her own and supporting herself then she is old enough to weigh options and decide for herself.

I have 3 adult children; two are 18 and 20 and college graduates and my oldest started his career before college. In his teen years my oldest was allowed to pursue his passion which was electronic, programing computer to give commands to curcuit boards and servos ... All above my head. So he built A LOT of circuit boards in his teens. He moved out at 18, went to military and got out and applied for his dream job making very good money to start. He walked in the door for his job interview and guess what the first thing the interviewer did? Handed my son a circuit board and told him to explain what it does! He was hired. He will also go to college in the evenings to work on his degree.

Anyway, I can see both sides. Your daughter is young and she will need to make many tough choices. I have to say though, for me, college is not just about getting a degree, it is about the life experiences and people you meet there too - and the mind opening events and knowledge. Also, I think it is a bit of a safe haven to delay the (possible) drudgery of adulthood! :lol:

[Ester Maria]

Unfortunately, yes, a bacherlor's degree does seem to be a new high school diploma, a new assumed default standard. Not that it excuses malicious comments, if your daughter has received such, but I would understand, at least somewhat, worried attitudes as it might be seen as though your daughter was giving up on the new 'standard' while perfectly capable of attaining it, 'sabotaging' her prospects or at least closing many potential doors for herself. Times really have changed from our parents' or even our own youth - for the better and for the worse - and the hyperproduction of college degrees which has set new standards is a part of the big picture to consider these days.

 

Honestly, I am not happy about it. Not only do I not consider college a must for every person, I consider this hyperproduction of degrees to be an ill in itself, as it goes hand in hand with the lowering of standards and the commercialization of education, the shifting of focus from specialist formation to a sort of prolonged high school, and so forth. The fact that it has also become an overly expensive adventure is only a part of the package. However, I do not see this trend reversing, on the contrary, and I am not even sure how smart it is to fight the system in this particular case.

 

There are two ways one can look at your daughter's choice. It can be an act of bravery, of a kid who knows what she is doing and what is best for her, maybe not even a permanent choice, but some time she has given to herself to think - in that case, I applaud her for knowing what she wants to do or for giving herself more time to figure out in which direction she wants to go, rather than just following the crowd. But, the other way you can look at it is that she is making an unwise choice which will potentially have her "stuck" at one point in life, as going back to school is not always practical, so a "fit" of youth might have some long term bitter consequences when it comes to considering such formalities in the future. There are always anecdotal cases of success, but the odds might be against her if this is becoming a new standard... Like somebody said ealier in the thread, danned if you do, danned if you do not. In either case it is a risk.

 

I do value learning for its own sake, as well as learning for the sake of professionalism and success. It is possible to attain that outside of the boundaries of formal education and institutions as well, but it is becoming increasily difficult for this generation because the world has changed. Formalities often matter, even if one does not work in one's field. On the other hand, college can for many be just an expensive adventure and not more than that. Sigh. Best of luck to her, these are not easy decisions and require a lot of "calculating".

Edited June 29, 2011 by Ester Maria

[twoforjoy]

I'm going to be blunt: I thought not going to college was stupid when I was younger. I never *said* that to anyone, but I was raised to believe that that was the one thing that would have made a difference to the adults in my family. (I was the 1st to get a college degree.)

 

When I was struggling w/ balancing school, finances, & a job, my little bro shrugged & said he didn't understand WHY anyone would PAY to go to school. I figured he'd learn later.

 

Now? He hasn't ever gone to college. He got his GED & dropped out of high school. He's not a model of success, but he's doing a LOT better than dh & I w/ our 3 degrees & piles of college debt.

 

In fact, everyone I've met in my age bracket who didn't go to college is financially better off than most of the people I know who went. *Maybe* this will shift as the young lawyers make partner, etc, but since dh & I aren't lawyers...I'm kind-of wishing we'd chosen the route you're daughter is considering.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry she's facing such criticism & unkindness. I wish her the best.

 

:iagree:

 

When I was growing up, it was simply expected that I was going to college. There was no choice in the matter. I wouldn't say that I thought it was stupid not to go to college, but the basic message I received was that, if you could go to college--if you were smart enough and had good enough grades--then you did, period.

 

DH and I--who both work in academia--have decided that we will not be pushing our children to attend college unless it's the right path for them. We won't discourage it, but if they don't want to attend, we won't force the issue. Considering that everybody we know who didn't go to college is far better off financially--making significantly more money, dealing with much less debt (we've got an insane amount of student loan debt between us, and we only ever attended public universities)--than we our with our two master's and doctorate between us, we're not going to assume it's the most practical choice for everybody.

[Joyofsixreboot]

No one but your dd is walking in her shoes. I think those bothering her are being awfully free with their opinions if they weren't asked. Hugs to her.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think there are many people who attend college without being mature enough for that level of study. They don't necessarily learn much and many colleges don't help in that there seems to be a trend to emphasize experience and community rather than knowledge and wisdom. And given the rising cost of college, I think that using it as a time of self exploration and learning what you want rather than what will equip you for further endeavors is foolhardy. (That doesn't mean that degrees like history are a waste, dh has two history degrees and uses it daily in his non-academic field.)

 

But I think that when studies look at the pay gap in people with college degrees, it may get skewed if they are looking too far back. Someone with a college degree from 40 - 50 years ago was often a professional with much higher lifetime earnings than someone without a degree. As degrees have become more common, I think that the value of some degrees has diminished.

 

Having said that, I think there is a danger in looking to our parents' generation or even our own for trends in how well you can live without having a degree. My father just retired from a career in manufacturing and chemical processing. He has no degree, but he had decades and decades of experience. And I think the degreed people who were hired to replace him will have a hard time matching him. But I also think he'd have a hard time getting a foot in the door without a degree these days.

 

If there are abundant applicants with a four year degree, that ostensibly shows a higher level of education, preparation and self-discipline (even if you can argue it doesn't always indicate that), why would you interview someone who didn't have that background?

 

I think there are fields and paths where going to a professional school instead of college can work, or where hard work can get you places. But there are also ways to go straight into the world of work and not end up where you hoped to go. Somewhere there is a balance and it probably involves a lot of hard work either way.

 

As for the OP's family, bean dip has no expiration date. An "I don't think this is the right time for me to go to college, but I'm open to the option later if the situation seems right" and changing the subject seems a fine way to handle it.

[TravelingChris]

We are a family that values higher education and expect all our children to go to college. That said, I would never call a person who is working in a legitimate job, saving money, etc, a loser. I could have called my son a loser- he quit college, and haphazardly applied to jobs but it wouldn't have been helpful. Now that his depression is lifting, he is actually acting purposefully and is on his way to making a life he wants for himself.

 

Restaurant work is something I really don't think you need a college degree and while I know there are institutions that teach restaurant management and also offer cooking degrees, I think hands on knowledge is more useful. THat said, picking up some classes that may specifically be helpful- basic bookkeeping, employment law for employers, etc. may be the way to go in the future.

 

I had my hair colored and cut yesterday and I was talking to the beautician about the educational requirements for getting a cosmetic license. One homeschooler we know is going to go that route. While many jobs don't require college degrees, many do require or could really use some classes or a program. Most technical, trade, and health jobs have some higher education needed though not necessarily a college degree.

[creekland]

It's interesting to see that people's responses often depend 100% on their personal experience.

 

My personal experience is with going to college directly from high school (both hubby and I) and using our degrees. We have no regrets even having had to pay off some debt (not super high debt).

 

Our boys are going to college directly from high school - have been raised knowing this - and are either enjoying it or looking forward to it. Maybe it's genetic. ;)

 

I know 6 adults IRL who did not get a college degree and are working on getting one now in order to progress higher in their jobs. Every single one of them has insisted their kids go to college right after high school.

 

BUT, I also know adults without a college degree who are happy in their jobs (often manufacturing, restaurant, construction, or retail for my IRL acquaintances) and feel college is a waste of time and money. If they are happy, then they've picked the right path for themselves. We NEED people in manufacturing, restaurants, construction, and retail (+others).

 

We NEED people in all slots. Therefore, if your daughter has found her niche, she's not a loser. Finding their niche in this world should be every student's goal.

 

She may, however, find herself with less options for jobs in the future (not as likely if she stays in the restaurant world).

 

She may also find herself put down (as has happened).

 

While not a good thing, these two issues do indeed happen IRL (as is often mentioned by my non-degreed friends). She's got to be self-confident, or, as a couple of my friends have done, take a couple of cc classes (esp related to business as those can be quite useful). Then she can always tell the more snobby folks in this world that she did some. My friends tell me this does, indeed, help. ;)

[Lizzie in Ma]

:grouphug::grouphug:

People can be so judgmental.

This attitude is more common than I realized. I have a friend who is getting married in August. She is 18. Recently, she went to an appointment with a new Dr. who told her she was ruining her life, lectured her on her horrible mistake of getting married early, made snide comments to the nurse like "yeah right you are not sexually active" and told her she should forget all this and go to college.

It is appalling how....

A. People think they have a right to tell someone else how to live their life

B. How hurtful and rude about it they can be.

 

I am sorry you and your daughter have to hear any of this. It is her life and no one has the right to judge how she lived it out.

[mysticamethyst]

Not getting a college degree is not the end of the world nor is it required of all the good paying jobs out there. Of course we want our kids to go to college to make their lives easier, in our opinions, but its not for everyone; nor does it always equal a large salary.

 

 

DH is the only one of his 3 siblings to not go to college and is doing the best financially out of them all. His brother with a BA lives in another country illegally and sells souvieners during tourist season in Crotia, works as migrant worker during off season. His sister is the picture of what most of us dispise, 4 kids, 4 dads and loves the welfare system. She has an AAS. DH started as machinist right out of Air Force and is a programmer for one of the largest shops in Houston.

 

IMHO the salary comes with the hard work you put into your chosen career and the area in which you live.

 

I think others are too judgmental of your DD and they should hush. She should be proud of the fact she knows what she wants and has the courage and strength to go after it. Name the place I will come eat at her resturant.

[Night Elf]

Some posters have suggested my dd go to college even if she doesn't want to, just to make sure that she keeps doors open for the future. I have to ask though, what field of study would you suggest for someone who has no interest in the types of degrees offered?

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

And before anyone says it is impossible to really have no interests, I will say that the only program of study I have been interested in is elementary education, but I don't want to teach. I was elated when my college began a new BS program that focused on kids ages birth to 5. I am absolutely fascinated with babies and toddlers. So if I actually do manage to graduate, I'll have a degree that allows me to teach infants and toddlers. That isn't exactly a field where a college degree is necessary. And if by some weird happening that the colleges stopped offering elementary education programs, there would be no other major I would have an interest in. I have enjoyed the history classes I took but there is no way I would want to choose that as a major. I don't like math, science, english, or business. No salary would be high enough to entice me into any job in the medical field (human or animal).

 

Dd19 is much the same as me when it comes to careers. I have clerical skills. Nearly all of the jobs I have held have been secretarial. She could probably be hired in a clerical position but she would absolutely hate it. She cannot picture herself working in an office. She has no interest in any of the subjects I've listed above. My college offers about 50 majors. She is not interested in any of them.

 

Her dad and stepmom, both teachers, suggest she become a teacher. They say it's okay if teachers don't like their jobs because the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages. My dd19 said that would be like paying tuition to earn a ticket to hell.

 

Okay, this got long. Honestly, what degree would I force her into?

[DawnM]

I think the point was that it will open doors. Sometimes it really doesn't matter WHAT the degree is in as it will open doors down the road.

 

I have a dear friend who is one full year away from finishing college. He has been one year away for over 25 years now. His college even said they would work with him to finish through online classes and night school.

 

Now, he has a job that he likes (in something to do with insurance) and he has 22 years of experience there. But he has watched people with drama degrees surpass him with only 5 years of experience because the requirement to go any higher is a BA and it doesn't matter what it is in. It is a hoop to jump through. We may not like the hoop, but we can't change it.

 

I was a college Jr and agonized over my major. Finally my dad said, "Just get the degree in anything. You can specialize in grad school." For me that was the best advice ever. I majored in Anthropology. Why? Because I loved my Anthropology professor! We are still friends to this day. But I went into high school teaching and later school counseling. Now, it might have been nice to know beforehand that was where my bent was, but I didn't. And it all worked out. However, if I hadn't gone at all or hadn't finished, I would have had a much harder path to follow trying to go back to school later or after kids.

 

I am not saying your daughter has to do this, just giving some scenarios to consider.

 

Dawn

 

Some posters have suggested my dd go to college even if she doesn't want to, just to make sure that she keeps doors open for the future. I have to ask though, what field of study would you suggest for someone who has no interest in the types of degrees offered?

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

And before anyone says it is impossible to really have no interests, I will say that the only program of study I have been interested in is elementary education, but I don't want to teach. I was elated when my college began a new BS program that focused on kids ages birth to 5. I am absolutely fascinated with babies and toddlers. So if I actually do manage to graduate, I'll have a degree that allows me to teach infants and toddlers. That isn't exactly a field where a college degree is necessary. And if by some weird happening that the colleges stopped offering elementary education programs, there would be no other major I would have an interest in. I have enjoyed the history classes I took but there is no way I would want to choose that as a major. I don't like math, science, english, or business. No salary would be high enough to entice me into any job in the medical field (human or animal).

 

Dd19 is much the same as me when it comes to careers. I have clerical skills. Nearly all of the jobs I have held have been secretarial. She could probably be hired in a clerical position but she would absolutely hate it. She cannot picture herself working in an office. She has no interest in any of the subjects I've listed above. My college offers about 50 majors. She is not interested in any of them.

 

Her dad and stepmom, both teachers, suggest she become a teacher. They say it's okay if teachers don't like their jobs because the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages. My dd19 said that would be like paying tuition to earn a ticket to hell.

 

Okay, this got long. Honestly, what degree would I force her into?

[Sahamamama]

In some ways, being able to go to college (and later graduate school) was a hindrance to me. It perpetuated my role as "student" -- and then I didn't really know how to be or do anything else. :001_huh: It also perpetuated other dependencies and attitudes about work.

 

Your daughter is willing to go out and work. What's wrong with that? :confused: Tell her to let the comments roll...

 

FWIW, on another track, I was single for many years into adulthood (married at 37). Would you believe some of the comments I got? At a family reunion, "Here comes Beth, isn't she ever going to get married?" At church, "If you would ask God, he would give you a husband, because the Bible says, 'Ye have not because ye ask not.'" :glare:

 

I also was actually told that I was probably single because -- get this -- the man God had intended to be my husband had either (a) been killed in a war in the Middle East, or (b) had "gone homosexual." :tongue_smilie:And this was from a church district official's wife. :001_huh: Duh.

 

When we move from the teens into the twenties, it can be tough. Stupid, blundering, insensitive people think they can say anything to a 19 or 20 year old. It is a time of great vulnerability, IMO. Teach your daughter to center herself with "I will wisely make and responsibly live out the decisions I make for my life," and she'll do just fine. ;) Rhinoceros hide!

[justamouse]

Some posters have suggested my dd go to college even if she doesn't want to, just to make sure that she keeps doors open for the future. I have to ask though, what field of study would you suggest for someone who has no interest in the types of degrees offered?

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

And before anyone says it is impossible to really have no interests, I will say that the only program of study I have been interested in is elementary education, but I don't want to teach. I was elated when my college began a new BS program that focused on kids ages birth to 5. I am absolutely fascinated with babies and toddlers. So if I actually do manage to graduate, I'll have a degree that allows me to teach infants and toddlers. That isn't exactly a field where a college degree is necessary. And if by some weird happening that the colleges stopped offering elementary education programs, there would be no other major I would have an interest in. I have enjoyed the history classes I took but there is no way I would want to choose that as a major. I don't like math, science, english, or business. No salary would be high enough to entice me into any job in the medical field (human or animal).

 

Dd19 is much the same as me when it comes to careers. I have clerical skills. Nearly all of the jobs I have held have been secretarial. She could probably be hired in a clerical position but she would absolutely hate it. She cannot picture herself working in an office. She has no interest in any of the subjects I've listed above. My college offers about 50 majors. She is not interested in any of them.

 

Her dad and stepmom, both teachers, suggest she become a teacher. They say it's okay if teachers don't like their jobs because the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages. My dd19 said that would be like paying tuition to earn a ticket to hell.

 

Okay, this got long. Honestly, what degree would I force her into?

 

 

That's what dad and step said? Oh man, that answer has me steaming. THAT is why I don't *send* my kids to school! Who wants a teacher there because the benefits are good! :confused: Not to mention, as a tax payer, that attitude is infuriating.

 

Let her live life a bit and if the clouds part and the sun shines down upon her (which I'm sure it will) she will eventually be exposed to something she enjoys enough to pursue as a career. She just hasn't found it yet. Sometimes that just takes time, and having the patience to wait for it to unfold is the wisest choice.

[justamouse]

I had my hair colored and cut yesterday and I was talking to the beautician about the educational requirements for getting a cosmetic license. One homeschooler we know is going to go that route. While many jobs don't require college degrees, many do require or could really use some classes or a program. Most technical, trade, and health jobs have some higher education needed though not necessarily a college degree.

 

My Dd is getting her license so she can pay for college. She is blessed to have one of the best teachers in the country. The engineering teacher at her school (where the class project is to make a submarine) freely admits that cosmo is harder than engineering, and tells his students that if they complain about work, they will be sent to cosmo. It's not an easy license to obtain.

[Kathleen in VA]

In some ways, being able to go to college (and later graduate school) was a hindrance to me. It perpetuated my role as "student" -- and then I didn't really know how to be or do anything else. :001_huh: It also perpetuated other dependencies and attitudes about work.

 

Your daughter is willing to go out and work. What's wrong with that? :confused: Tell her to let the comments roll...

 

FWIW, on another track, I was single for many years into adulthood (married at 37). Would you believe some of the comments I got? At a family reunion, "Here comes Beth, isn't she ever going to get married?" At church, "If you would ask God, he would give you a husband, because the Bible says, 'Ye have not because ye ask not.'" :glare:

 

I also was actually told that I was probably single because -- get this -- the man God had intended to be my husband had either (a) been killed in a war in the Middle East, or (b) had "gone homosexual." :tongue_smilie:And this was from a church district official's wife. :001_huh: Duh.

 

When we move from the teens into the twenties, it can be tough. Stupid, blundering, insensitive people think they can say anything to a 19 or 20 year old. It is a time of great vulnerability, IMO. Teach your daughter to center herself with "I will wisely make and responsibly live out the decisions I make for my life," and she'll do just fine. ;) Rhinoceros hide!

 

:iagree:I think the real losers are folks who haven't learned enough manners to be kind to young people who are just starting out their lives and need time to explore their options. What good is a college degree if the person hasn't learned manners as well?

 

I think as long as your daughter is a kind, thoughtful, hard worker she ought to be praised to the skies. But, then, I suppose it really does come down to your definition of success in this world. I guess there are a lot of folks who think success is about money and possessions and power and status. There are plenty of people in this world who have all of those and whom I do not consider successful in the least because they do not treat other people kindly or with respect.

 

I also have the problem of being in perpectual student mode. I did well in school - National Honor Society in high school, Dean's list and honors in college. It trained me to be great at getting good grades, but I did not learn how to get along in the work world and stumbled about for a while getting my footing there. It wasn't fun.

 

Your daughter sounds like a very level-headed young lady who knows her mind and will do well at whatever she attempts. As Beth said, now is the time to learn to have a tough skin and ignore people who can't remember something as simple as the Golden Rule.

[Niffercoo]

This is always a hot topic for me for a multitude of reasons, most of which are driven by my personal experience.

 

First of all, I am the first woman in my family to have a college degree. I took out student loans to get my degree in Early Childhood Education only to graduate during one of those cycles where they were no teaching jobs to be found. I taught 2nd grade briefly, and then worked in a day care center making 50 cents per hour more than minimum wage. I left there after only a few months because the working conditions were horrible, and I could make twice as much money working at a bank (which is one of the jobs I had done when I was putting myself through college). I have been a SAHM since having children, and have never truly used my degree. I don't think it's a waste, but we paid on those student loans for 13 years. It would have been longer had we not learned about Dave Ramsey.

 

My parents are both very hard-working. My dad has been in retail all his life and has worked his way up into management. He has lost jobs quite often, as happens in retail, but has always been able to get another job quickly through his business contacts, even though he has no degree (and no college at all). My mother works in banking and has also worked her way up from being a teller to now being a Vice President of one of the largest banks in the country. Her bosses are all younger than she is. She had some college but quit when I was a baby because it was too hard to be a single mom and go to college and work. My parents never told me I should go to college. I graduated high school in 1990 and I don't know if it's just the places where I lived, or my family experience, but there wasn't a lot of pressure for me to go to college. In fact, I didn't decide until the fall of my senior year that I was even going to go. There was no other option but to get student loans as my parents didn't have enough money to send me to college. So I've watched them work very hard, but overall be successful because of their hard work.

 

My husband went to college but his heart wasn't it it and he passed very few classes. He ended up leaving college without a degree to become a musician. Once we had Austin, he gave up the "on the road" life and took a low-paying job at his BILs company. He has a good job now, but he has hit the top of his pay scale and we are actually seeing our income decrease as the price of insurance rises faster than the raises come. He uses his musical talents/experience to provide for our family as well. But he works very long days 6 days a week and this won't ever end (unless/until I return to work). Our friends are buying bigger houses, new cars, taking long vacations multiple times a year. It's not easy.

 

I want my children to go to college so they have more opportunities in the world in which they are growing up. However, I have 2 children for whom this is not going to be an easy path, if it's possible at all. My frustration lies in the fact that the college degree is now seen as "required" for any type of decent job or for advancement, and there is a stigma in not having a degree (as seen in the OPs daughter's experience and as seen in threads on this very message board). There really NEEDS to be another path for those kids who are NOT capable of college-level work! We cannot abandon an entire generation of young adults simply because they cannot comprehend trigonometry or the great books! It's just not right! And we've really got to stop assuming that just because someone does not have a degree that they are lazy or a loser or whatever!

[elegantlion]

I haven't read all the replies, but your dd is not a loser. Neither dh or I have a degree, he regrets not having one. I don't so much.

 

Aside from learning to discount the rude comments, there are a few things to consider:

 

1. Choosing not to attend college at 19 is not a final decision. She may decide to attend as an adult. I see nothing wrong with taking off a few years. My mistake was thinking because I didn't go at 18 I couldn't feasibly go in the future.

 

2. Many successful people don't have degrees. My dh has been self-employed for over 30 years. The economy has tanked his industry and the last year has sucked, but you can be successful without a degree.

 

3. The reality is without a degree many doors will not be opened to her. I worked several jobs where I topped out because I didn't have a degree. My last job was in the insurance industry, good pay, great benefits, but after five years of working there my advancement was topped out because I held no degree. I was basically doing the same job as the degreed individuals too. Many people will not hire without a degree, period.

 

4. There are many industries where training will give them opportunities they need. Hard work, initiative will get noticed if you get your foot in the door. I was able to get advancement in my last job simply because I worked hard.

 

Our stance as parents is that we are pushing ds to get at least a bachelor's degree. We've seen dh not be able to change industries because of the lack of that piece of paper. We want him to be able to provide for his family, a degree is part of that package, not the end all, beat all portion.

 

Sorry she has to put with this, especially from her own family.

[creekland]

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

 

 

If she's happy, let her keep at it. Someone needs to manage the cafe! ;)

 

If she wants to avoid some of the stigma associated with "no" college, have her pick a class at the local cc (or wherever) that she likes - no degree in mind - and take it for fun (and the credit). Then, if anyone asks, she's taking classes while working. ;);) She'll also always be able to say she did "some." My friends tell me people look at them "better" just if they can say that truthfully.

 

If she doesn't care about the stigma, I wouldn't worry. If she's found her niche, she's been successful in her "student" life IMO.

[dcjlkplus3]

Some business classes might be of benefit to her somewhere down the road. If her end goal is to own her own restaurant, it may worth talking to different restaurant owners about what classes (if any) they would recommend. It may also be helpful if she might eventually need a business loan to do that.

 

Good luck to her and I'm glad that she knows what she wants to do.

[Homemaker]

I do not think college is all that it is cracked up to be and I think many people fail to think out their degree and end up going into debt and dont really have anything useful to show for it.

 

Your daughter sounds like she is being wise in not attending right this moment. (I do disagree with her decision to move in with her boyfriend, unless you were talking marriage.).

[WIS0320]

My dd19 has decided to enter the workforce instead of attending college. She has gotten many negative remarks about this choice. She has been called a loser. She has been told she will never have anything or be anyone important.

 

First, I know plenty of "well-educated" people who spend most of their free time watching the Bachelorette and shows of that ilk. It's fine to have the occasional guilty pleasure but also a good idea to know what is going on in Libya - and some of my college educated friends do not!

 

I became a hairstylist during the time my mother was in a doctoral program. I ended up making far more money than she did as a tenured college professor. It simply isn't true that college is the only way to find gainful employment that can support you.

 

I do think college can be a very valuable experience and I wish at times that I had gone. I have definitely self-educated (and I am still doing so) along the way and I don't feel behind or less then my college educated peers. I have to admit that in my social circle I am an oddity and it is looked upon with a bit of amusement that I chose to buck to trend to go to college and still turned out "OK". My husband needed college for his career track and for him it was necessary to do what he wanted to do. It was a great experience for him and definitely not a waste of time or money.

 

I think some people really do think that college is the only way to be successful in life and I suppose it all depends on how you determine success. My definition is healthy, happy, a good wife, mother and friend and self-supporting and active in my community.

 

ETA: It will mean more to her to attend college when she really wants to. I should add that I did complete an AA degree after I was married (that has done nothing at all to improve my life!) but I appreciated that experience more than if my mother had forced me to go when I was 18.

Edited June 29, 2011 by drexel

[ByGrace3]

I didn't finish reading all of the responses, but am tentatively weighing in here.

 

I do think college is the new high school. While I do not think college is for everyone, a solid plan with long term goals is. Our plan for our family is college is expected unless they come up with a better plan for themselves, and honestly it would have to be great and convincing. I do wonder how people's own experiences come into play with this. I completely agree with the debt.student loan issues. I am completely against them. We are still paying off dh's loans, but he came from a poor family with no other options to pay for it. His career is not possible without a degree, so we deal.

Dh and I have both bachelor's and masters, and both consider at times going back for PhD's.

The truth is, even in some states a bachelor's degree is necessary to homeschool your children, and it would not surprise me at all for this to be more common place.

So, not to say that college is for everyone, but I would think they would need to have a sure reason and plan not to, otherwise, my kids are going to college.

[Mom-ninja.]

I will say that the new high school diploma is a college degree. Of course it depends on the type of work you want to do.

 

My DH has had to go back to school to get his BS. In his line of work he has reached the max he can go without a degree. He wants more, and was told quite frankly, that even though he was the experience and the ability to do be promoted, he will not under any circumstances be promoted without a college degree. The higher ups want that piece of paper.

 

So, at 40, he has returned to school and he really really wishes he'd done it when he was in his 20s.

 

I understand that not everyone wants to go to college, and that is fine. For DH's work, however, it's a requirement at this point.

 

My expectation for my boys is that they go to college.

[Night Elf]

We cannot abandon an entire generation of young adults simply because they cannot comprehend trigonometry or the great books! It's just not right! And we've really got to stop assuming that just because someone does not have a degree that they are lazy or a loser or whatever!

 

This is what is funny to me. I managed a 'B' average in college 23 years ago and I only had Geometry and Algebra 1. I was not a great high school student and college courses really weren't that much more difficult. Now that I'm older, I work harder and I have an 'A' average. But honestly, my college classes aren't that challenging. I have 132 credit hours in state universities, and I have never had to write a paper longer than 2 pages. I have been able to pass my tests with a general cramming the night before the test. With as much experience as I have, I just really don't see how taking college classes can "make" someone intelligent. I have only had one class that I think was truly thought-provoking. The others have just been lecture, notes, textbook, exam study guide, exam. It's actually rather easy cheesy most of the time.

 

I was just telling someone in a PM that I have been in several classes this past school year with a particular young lady who absolutely astonished me. She never tried in class. She never completed homework assignments. She didn't participate in group work but got the credit because the rest of us picked up the slack so we wouldn't get bad grades. She only studied for exams in the 15 minutes before classes began. She wasn't bothered in the least by bad grades. If she made a D or F, she repeated the class the next semester with the same teacher because she had the notes and test answers. She laughed at herself and said it was no big deal. She is going to be student teaching this school year and will probably be looking for a teaching job in Fall 2012. Oh, and she doesn't particularly like kids, so she is studying to be an elementary school teacher because that job is easier than working in a middle school or high school. :001_huh: It's rather scary. It kind of makes me feel stupid for trying as hard as I do. Another few girls laughed at my concern for getting 'A's. They said life was too short to worry so much about perfect grades. egads! They scoffed at me when I told them I expected no less of myself than what I expected of my children.

 

So that is why I have a difficult time pushing my dd into college when I know she has absolutely no desire to go. I would be heartbroken if she turned into that kind of student.

[YLVD]

Not getting a college degree is not the end of the world nor is it required of all the good paying jobs out there. Of course we want our kids to go to college to make their lives easier, in our opinions, but its not for everyone; nor does it always equal a large salary.

 

 

DH is the only one of his 3 siblings to not go to college and is doing the best financially out of them all. His brother with a BA lives in another country illegally and sells souvieners during tourist season in Crotia, works as migrant worker during off season. His sister is the picture of what most of us dispise, 4 kids, 4 dads and loves the welfare system. She has an AAS. DH started as machinist right out of Air Force and is a programmer for one of the largest shops in Houston.

 

IMHO the salary comes with the hard work you put into your chosen career and the area in which you live.

 

I think others are too judgmental of your DD and they should hush. She should be proud of the fact she knows what she wants and has the courage and strength to go after it. Name the place I will come eat at her resturant.

 

My SO is the only one in his family to have gone to college. He first went into the Navy and has been finishing his degree fairly slowly over the years.

 

He is almost done with his degree, finally! He works full time for an incredible company, in an incredible industry. BUT, the lack of degree keeps him from making more money or being promoted.

 

Even though he is SO close to graduating, there will be no increase in money or promotion until he has that degree, any degree. He says that he finally sees how much the lack of a college degree can hurt.

 

So while he's doing well, and better than his family, he wants to do better and has been held back.

[YLVD]

I agree with all of this. I have a BA and I don't feel like it is anything special to be honest. It almost feels like the minimum. So to not have it, I don't know what I would have done with myself. I found decent jobs, but again, nothing I would have assumed I would have found after all that time and money.

 

I think a better route than no college is a technical type school/training program. My sister went to school for medical assisting. She was done in less than 2 years, owed less money in the end, and had a job right away that paid as well as jobs I was getting with my four year degree. It was also perfect for a person who didn't really like academics. It was all related to the job she would be doing (practical, hands-on).

 

That said, we are talking about a 19 year old. There is certainly still plenty of time. And it's her decision (and not anyone's business really).

 

I do think that this is a good option for many people. While I am very pro-university, my own dd isn't a super academic. She's incredibly intelligent but does have a mild LD that can make things difficult. I would encourage a specialized program, technical, etc.

[YLVD]

Some posters have suggested my dd go to college even if she doesn't want to, just to make sure that she keeps doors open for the future. I have to ask though, what field of study would you suggest for someone who has no interest in the types of degrees offered?

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

And before anyone says it is impossible to really have no interests, I will say that the only program of study I have been interested in is elementary education, but I don't want to teach. I was elated when my college began a new BS program that focused on kids ages birth to 5. I am absolutely fascinated with babies and toddlers. So if I actually do manage to graduate, I'll have a degree that allows me to teach infants and toddlers. That isn't exactly a field where a college degree is necessary. And if by some weird happening that the colleges stopped offering elementary education programs, there would be no other major I would have an interest in. I have enjoyed the history classes I took but there is no way I would want to choose that as a major. I don't like math, science, english, or business. No salary would be high enough to entice me into any job in the medical field (human or animal).

 

Dd19 is much the same as me when it comes to careers. I have clerical skills. Nearly all of the jobs I have held have been secretarial. She could probably be hired in a clerical position but she would absolutely hate it. She cannot picture herself working in an office. She has no interest in any of the subjects I've listed above. My college offers about 50 majors. She is not interested in any of them.

 

Her dad and stepmom, both teachers, suggest she become a teacher. They say it's okay if teachers don't like their jobs because the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages. My dd19 said that would be like paying tuition to earn a ticket to hell.

 

Okay, this got long. Honestly, what degree would I force her into?

 

It isn't about forcing. There is likely a subject that she enjoys and is passionate learning about. IME as a recruiter and someone in the career world, the actual degree almost always means nothing. Truly.

 

I was a criminology major and did spend some time in my field. I'm one of the only people I know that did. Most of my successful friends, and I'm determining success as those that enjoy what they do and do it well, have very basic degrees in their fields of interest.

 

I was always interested in criminology and loved my studies. I also got excellent grades because I was interested. I'm glad that I spent time in the field but it wasn't necessary.

 

My best friend was a psychology major. She loved her studies. She now works at a top publishing house and has nothing to do with her degree. But, that degree was fun, helped her get great grades and be competitive in the job market.

 

My own DD loves Indian and Arabic studies. I would encourage her to study those things if she wanted, along with keeping an eye to her future, internships, and I know that she would be competitive.

 

Some people know that they want to go into engineering, law or medicine. Those people should go for it. A less than enthusiastic college student should take a different approach sometimes.

[Aelwydd]

With as much experience as I have, I just really don't see how taking college classes can "make" someone intelligent. I have only had one class that I think was truly thought-provoking. The others have just been lecture, notes, textbook, exam study guide, exam. It's actually rather easy cheesy most of the time.

 

Yes, because by pushing all students, regardless of ability, to go to college, combined with a declining ps system, colleges are now having to pick up the slack and teach the basics that students SHOULD have learned in K-12.

 

Also, this is unfortunately, not just a ps crisis. I will never forget when I first sat down in English 101 (eons ago, lol) in my first semester of college, and the instructor was going over the syllabus. She got to the section about the research paper that would required, and after a few moments, a student to my right timidly raised her hand and asked, "I'm sorry...but what's a thesis?"

 

My best friend (who was in the same class) and I had bugged out eyes at that. But then, two more students raised their hands and said they didn't know what a thesis statement was either.

 

Turns out, that 2 of the 3 were home schooled, and the third was ps'd.

 

So you see, the problem of lack of education permeates even the hs'ing community. And the job of universities and colleges isn't to "make" someone intelligent. It's to teach them how to use their innate intelligence to research, find answers, and share that information with others. College, in the past, has always required a certain amount of "on board" intelligence to begin with.

 

But, since colleges have become de facto senior high schools, and being fed through the community college and athletic scholarships as much as they are through schools with high SAT scores and academic scholarship, the focus has shifted.

 

Now U.S. colleges are more akin to expensive training/certificate programs for certain industries and corporations that want a certain degree of competence when it comes to writing and speaking and math, but in no way, want intellectuals or independent thinkers.

 

I happen to value some college and university degrees, based on the school and/or department they are based. I have a B.S. in Health Studies, and I want ds to go to college someday, too. But, only if he has the tools, mentally, to succeed in a truly rigorous academic environment, in a college or university that still has high standards of admittance. I'm doing what I can to make sure he will have those tools.

[TracieT]

Yes, it would be "forcing." That's what happened to my dh. His parents forced him. Picked his classes, signed him up. He flunked out because he would go to movies instead of his classes. :glare:

He went back for some Microsoft certification classes at one point and got 4.0. Because at that point he WANTED to be there.

He never got any type of degree or anything, but he now works for the university he flunked out of. Hehe. :)

[twoforjoy]

I've been thinking about this, and I think most of my issue with higher education as an expectation isn't so much that I think there's anything wrong with higher education--I teach at a university, I had an awesome time in college and grad school, I'm a big fan of education--but that there's something very wrong with the false bill of goods were giving students.

 

We continue to make young people believe that if they just go to college, work hard there, get good grades, and graduate, they will go on to find a decent-paying, secure job. If that doesn't happen, then it's because they screwed up somewhere along the line. That is not reality. I was raised with the happy delusion--which was my parents' reality--that if I just worked hard in school, got good grades, stayed out of trouble, and did well in college, I'd get a good job after college and be all set to do at least as well as they'd done. Life hasn't worked out that way, even though I followed all their rules.

 

I cannot tell you how many of my students--most of them first-generation college students--believe that if they just work hard and graduate college (no matter how much debt they have to accrue to do that), they will get a good job and not have to struggle the way their parents did. It breaks my heart, because for many of them that will not happen, not because of anything they do wrong, but because our country is full of people who have done everything right and are still really, really struggling.

 

So I think what I mainly object to is the false promises we are still giving young people.

[Niffercoo]

This is what is funny to me. I managed a 'B' average in college 23 years ago and I only had Geometry and Algebra 1.

 

But these days, you can't even graduate high school with only Algebra 1 and Geometry, let alone get into college.

[Rosie_0801]

So what can she do that formalises what she does already? I don't know how your community colleges work, but if she were my daughter, I'd be suggesting she talk to her boss about completing a certificate or diploma in restaurant management. My siblings have earned a bunch of certificates like that on the job.

 

Rosie

[Kathleen in VA]

So what can she do that formalises what she does already? I don't know how your community colleges work, but if she were my daughter, I'd be suggesting she talk to her boss about completing a certificate or diploma in restaurant management. My siblings have earned a bunch of certificates like that on the job.

 

Rosie

 

This is a good idea. Ds22 has several computer certificates that enabled him to get a good job without going to college.

[Night Elf]

So what can she do that formalises what she does already? I don't know how your community colleges work, but if she were my daughter, I'd be suggesting she talk to her boss about completing a certificate or diploma in restaurant management. My siblings have earned a bunch of certificates like that on the job.

 

Rosie

 

The closest community college is an hour and a half away. That isn't an option for our family. :(

 

Oh, we do have a technical school but it doesn't offer anything she is interested in doing.

[Kathleen in VA]

The closest community college is an hour and a half away. That isn't an option for our family. :(

 

Oh, we do have a technical school but it doesn't offer anything she is interested in doing.

 

Our community college offers several degree programs entirely online. (Northern Virginia Community College). Perhaps there is a cc in your state (or she could even "attend" NVCC) that offers distance learning.

[Farrar]

I liked college okay... but it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. And I do feel like it was, on some level, a waste of my time. When I graduated, I had zero prospects for work, no idea what I wanted to do with my life, and I was beyond broke.

 

On the other hand, my graduate degree was NOT a waste of time at all. I went with a specific purpose, I studied how I wanted, where I wanted in the way I wanted. It led to jobs I wanted.

 

So I no problem with higher education or college. What I have a problem with is when it's the default path. Don't know what you want to do? Oh well, go to college! And the people who seem to think you're a failure for not going. It takes a whole lot more maturity to be raised in a middle class, educated family and decide you're not ready for college or you want to find your own path because you're not sure what you want to do with your life than to just go with the flow and do what every single other kid your age is doing.

[QueenieReighn]

Some posters have suggested my dd go to college even if she doesn't want to, just to make sure that she keeps doors open for the future. I have to ask though, what field of study would you suggest for someone who has no interest in the types of degrees offered?

 

Honestly, my dd doesn't have an interest in any of the study programs. We have looked at 4-year universities and also at the tech/trade school. She really doesn't have any particular job type in mind other than what she is in currently, whch is managing the cafe.

 

And before anyone says it is impossible to really have no interests, I will say that the only program of study I have been interested in is elementary education, but I don't want to teach. I was elated when my college began a new BS program that focused on kids ages birth to 5. I am absolutely fascinated with babies and toddlers. So if I actually do manage to graduate, I'll have a degree that allows me to teach infants and toddlers. That isn't exactly a field where a college degree is necessary. And if by some weird happening that the colleges stopped offering elementary education programs, there would be no other major I would have an interest in. I have enjoyed the history classes I took but there is no way I would want to choose that as a major. I don't like math, science, english, or business. No salary would be high enough to entice me into any job in the medical field (human or animal).

 

Dd19 is much the same as me when it comes to careers. I have clerical skills. Nearly all of the jobs I have held have been secretarial. She could probably be hired in a clerical position but she would absolutely hate it. She cannot picture herself working in an office. She has no interest in any of the subjects I've listed above. My college offers about 50 majors. She is not interested in any of them.

 

Her dad and stepmom, both teachers, suggest she become a teacher. They say it's okay if teachers don't like their jobs because the benefits far outweigh any disadvantages. My dd19 said that would be like paying tuition to earn a ticket to hell.

 

Okay, this got long. Honestly, what degree would I force her into?

 

 

If she did want to go to college for her interests, I would think she would go for business/restaurant management. She could learn the best ways to run a business/restaurant, accounting things, the best ways to advertise, how to write a business plan, and all other aspects of running a successful business. Also, the college would probably help her make business connections with others. It is not necessary to get that degree for doing what she wants to do, but it can often be helpful for dealing with other people or for running her business without have to learn so many things 'the hard way' or paying someone else to do it. Many people go to college for this so I don't think it'd be too hard to find somewhere to do that major...your local community college may even offer it. I know my friend just finished up her hotel management degree at a community college. Sorry if this is a repeat answer because I didn't read what others had posted. I wish her good luck in whatever she chooses...neither of which will be a dumb choice because she has a plan and is working towards it, which makes her smart in my book! :-)

[Ecclecticmum]

I think honestly they are better off going to the work force rather than college. DH went to college and he could of just as easily worked his way up the ladder quicker to where he is now, and earned money rather than having a big giant student loan left.

 

If there doing something specialized like psychiatry then yes, otherwise there are always alternative ways in. What jobs look for is EXPERIENCE not degrees. Many people whom have gotten good degrees end up on SS or homeless because the work for is looking for experience and doesn't want to hire a 25 yr old with a degree, they much rather hire the 18yr old whose keen and eager.

 

Traineeships or apprenticeships (if they have this sort of thing in the US) are a much much better solution.

 

xxxx

[QueenieReighn]

Yes, because by pushing all students, regardless of ability, to go to college, combined with a declining ps system, colleges are now having to pick up the slack and teach the basics that students SHOULD have learned in K-12.

 

Also, this is unfortunately, not just a ps crisis. I will never forget when I first sat down in English 101 (eons ago, lol) in my first semester of college, and the instructor was going over the syllabus. She got to the section about the research paper that would required, and after a few moments, a student to my right timidly raised her hand and asked, "I'm sorry...but what's a thesis?"

 

My best friend (who was in the same class) and I had bugged out eyes at that. But then, two more students raised their hands and said they didn't know what a thesis statement was either.

 

Turns out, that 2 of the 3 were home schooled, and the third was ps'd.

 

So you see, the problem of lack of education permeates even the hs'ing community. And the job of universities and colleges isn't to "make" someone intelligent. It's to teach them how to use their innate intelligence to research, find answers, and share that information with others. College, in the past, has always required a certain amount of "on board" intelligence to begin with.

 

But, since colleges have become de facto senior high schools, and being fed through the community college and athletic scholarships as much as they are through schools with high SAT scores and academic scholarship, the focus has shifted.

 

Now U.S. colleges are more akin to expensive training/certificate programs for certain industries and corporations that want a certain degree of competence when it comes to writing and speaking and math, but in no way, want intellectuals or independent thinkers.

 

I happen to value some college and university degrees, based on the school and/or department they are based. I have a B.S. in Health Studies, and I want ds to go to college someday, too. But, only if he has the tools, mentally, to succeed in a truly rigorous academic environment, in a college or university that still has high standards of admittance. I'm doing what I can to make sure he will have those tools.

 

This does not mean that they didn't know how to write a thesis...I run into many times when the people were taught how to write a thesis but used other words for it instead of thesis.

[Rosie_0801]

The closest community college is an hour and a half away. That isn't an option for our family. :(

 

Oh, we do have a technical school but it doesn't offer anything she is interested in doing.

 

The programs my siblings did were set up through their workplace, like accredited training. Basically, all they did was their job and a few hoop jumping assignments to satisfy the Tafe (what we call those schools) requirements. They never set foot in a Tafe classroom. Perhaps her employer could set up something with one of the colleges that provides relevant courses online?

 

Rosie

[leeannpal]

I think honestly they are better off going to the work force rather than college. DH went to college and he could of just as easily worked his way up the ladder quicker to where he is now, and earned money rather than having a big giant student loan left.

 

If there doing something specialized like psychiatry then yes, otherwise there are always alternative ways in. What jobs look for is EXPERIENCE not degrees. Many people whom have gotten good degrees end up on SS or homeless because the work for is looking for experience and doesn't want to hire a 25 yr old with a degree, they much rather hire the 18yr old whose keen and eager.

 

Traineeships or apprenticeships (if they have this sort of thing in the US) are a much much better solution.

 

xxxx

 

I'll just have to disagree with you on this. From my experience, having a degree is often what gets you in the door to get experience. There are many professions that won't even look at a person without a college degree. My sister is going through a nasty divorce right now. She had been a SAHM. Now, she has to get back out in the workforce, and she doesn't have a college degree. She is having all kinds of trouble finding a job that pays enough for her to live on.

 

My father also found this to be true. He was a mechanical engineer starting in the 1960's when you could pretty easily get a job without a degree. What he found was that others with degrees were soon promoted over him because of the degree. He was and is a great mechanical engineer. he just couldn't get the promotions without going back to college. He opted to start his own business instead, but it has been a difficult process.

[leeannpal]

The closest community college is an hour and a half away. That isn't an option for our family. :(

 

Oh, we do have a technical school but it doesn't offer anything she is interested in doing.

 

She could check into going to college online part-time. In that way she could work and also start working on a degree. If she finds that college isn't for her, she won't have that much invested in just a few online classes.

[Crimson Wife]

What jobs look for is EXPERIENCE not degrees. Many people whom have gotten good degrees end up on SS or homeless because the work for is looking for experience and doesn't want to hire a 25 yr old with a degree, they much rather hire the 18yr old whose keen and eager.

 

Today, most jobs seem to be looking for experience AND education. The 22 y.o. with 4 years' worth of experience but no degree and the 22 y.o. with a degree but no experience are both losing out to the 30something with a degree AND a bunch of experience.

[Danestress]

Honestly, part of learning what it means to be an adult is for your daughter to learn how to shut this stuff down. I feel like some people are better than others at projecting a "don't mess with me" air. Your daughter needs to look right into the eyes of people who say these rude things and say, "What you just said to me was really rude. Did you mother not teach you any manners at all?" And be persistent.

 

If the speaker is a family member, that might be different. I would probably say something like, "Dad, I already heard what you think about this choice. I am disagreeing with you, and I think you need to stop harping on it. I have made up my mind on this."

 

One of my favorite fall back phrases when I don't want to argue with a moron is, "Oh. Yeah. I guess that is one way to look at it." It's not really arguing. It's not really agreeing. It sort of implies you heard what they said, but gives no ground.